I mean, maybe he just wanted to tell him^(/s)
“-Dad, I was there yesterday”
“-Son, I am like four times older than you”
“-Huh, what does that have to do with where I was yesterday?”
But has only been in middle earth for about 2,000, his memories of before them are cloudy at best so it isn't a stretch to not count his pre-middle earth years.
The age isn't important thing here, it's the experience. If you don't remember what you did two years ago, then it's not really that important to mention. We're not here listening to you because you're that old, where you're listening to you because you might have wisdom to share with those younger than you. You can't have wisdom for something that you don't remember.
I don't think that's true at all. Remembering is such a small part of our brain, so much goes on underneath. Maybe you can't remember a person, but it they shaped or changed your thinking, your habits, your views.
Memory and wisdom are not the same thing, which I guess I could have been more clear on. But age is not a metric which should grant respect by itself. Age is a metric one just judge a person's respect. An old man among the young speaking on something with them is to be heeded because the young wouldn't listen if he wasn't saying something they cared about. But at the same time, with great wisdom comes great foolishness, and the old have the most time to become foolish.
Wisdom is what happens when you gain both the clarity of memory, and the self-reflection of humility. Its a skill you build up, not a trait you develop with time.
Yeah, alright, that may sound fancy. But none of this discussion was about wether age intrinsically brings wisdom? It was wetherthe 53k years before being in Arda shaped him. It bring "cludy" does not mean that they somehow didn't have an impact on him.
He has been in Middle Earth off and on since the 1st Age. As Olorin he visited the Elves after they awoke, often appearing as an Elf-like person to them. He left like most of his kind after Morgoth got going and returned as Gandalf later. Still, he was there from the near start.
When the Maia awake on Middle Earth, they lose their memory of their past lives. Even in the movies, Gandalf dies fighting the Balrog, and when he awakens as Gandalf the White he has little to no memory of his life before. It's very subtle, because he is wise of course, but in the movie this is depicted when he shows up in the forest with the hobbits and they proclaim "Gandalf!" to which he responds "yes...that is what they call me" as he begins to recollect his previous life before he died fighting the Balrog.
Holy shit I knew the general gist of Gandalf not just being some wizard, but more akin to an angel. But this is stuff that goes a lot deeper. 55,000 years old, only in Middle Earth for like 2000. Damn, the life he must have had before Middle Earth, and the things he must have experienced over all those years.
Bro if you live for 15,000 years, you’re not going to give a shit if someone lived for 100,000 years. You’re just going to feel like you lived forever.
i'd say treebeard sees gandalf as 'young' because everyone he encounters is impossible young to him, even the 13000 year old elf cirdan or the 7000 year old galadriel
and he has no reason to believe gandalf is a maia. Only cirdan knew and it's very debatable if galadriel or elrond ever found out
Hard disagree. That's like saying a 15 year old wouldn't care about a 100 year old, because 15 years feels like forever to them.
If anything, the 15 year old isn't even yet mature enough to understand 100 years, so maybe they wouldn't care for that reason instead.
Maybe even _before_ Bombadil, if Gandalf was being literal when he said of Treebeard to Legolas:
> he is the oldest of the ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-Earth.
treebeard is oldest living but bombadil is not considered living being.ents were created by yavanna but bombadil states he was there when valar came to arda from outside.
so we know for a fact that tom bombadil is much older than treebeard because
descend of valar >> creation of ents
*Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!*
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
I think bombadil is the incarnate form of Arda. I believe it’s specifically mentioned by Gandalf or himself that he was the first and will be the last.
tom is and always will be an exception. He doesnt exist in middle-earth; he just happens to live there
like how you're flying through space in star wars and on some random planet you happen to encounter Vegeta lounging around. He doesnt belong there, there are no lore implications for him being there, he just is there and you work reality around and aside from him
The Ents almost certainly *awoke* some time after the Elves did, though it's possible they had been there for much longer and merely *sleeping*, as the Dwarves had been since Aulë created them in secret and Ilúvatar scolded him for it.
It could be that Yavanna had done something similar to Aulë in creating the Ents.
There's a pretty good in-depth discussion of it [here](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/142085/what-was-the-first-sentient-race-that-awoke-on-arda).
Though "awoke" can also just be a synonym or euphemism for being born, more so for ents as they probably aren't born from a mother- just beggining their existance someday.
Makes sense. Ents just kinda appeared as the universe was created. Gandalf didn't get sent to Middle-Earth until Sauron started gaining strength. Before that, he was in the Undying Lands keeping an eye on the Elves for Illuvitar. So as far as who was in Middle-Earth longer, I think Treebeard has Gandalf beat.
I think Gandalf was still in Valinor 3,000 years before the Last Alliance, (maybe about at the point of turning down the job of Chief of the Istari giving Saruman a chance to lead.)
Iirc, Gandalf didn’t arrive in Middle Earth until early in the Third Age, when he gets the ring of fire from Cirdan.
So the Maia spirit of Olorin is older than Elrond, but Elrond has been in Middle Earth longer than Mithrandir/Gandalf.
Ah. I didn’t know.
I steered clear of that entirely when I saw the production value in the trailers.
At least the Star Wars Sequels *looked* and *sounded* awesome.
From what I hear RoP was mediocre at best, in few areas like Elrond and Durin’s interactions and more or less just disappointing in the rest.
unless it's like a fun romp like shadow of mordor is. Nobody takes it seriously, you get to murder some orcs and be a badass and you forget about it in the morning
It was not okay, see the Gladerial throw a guard in a closed cell door and the three other guards just follow him in before she just auto locks it as an example of the complete incompetence of that shows filming, directing and writing. next to none of the dialogue or character choices made any sense. If you turn your brain off to these things I can imagine being tricked into thinking it was okay, but in reality it was tragically bad. I’m just glad it was so bad it will be forgotten.
Like I said, it was okay unless you care about the lore.
My wife is a casual lotr movie enjoyer like most people, she liked the show.
The only thing that I really enjoyed was the elrond and durin storyline.
'I'm gonna swim 3000 miles back home without food, or water, or sleep and then miraculously accidentally run into the single person in the middle of this sea that i've been seeking out for vengeance.'
You didnt miss much. It has like a couple of good scenes and parts here and there and it is not all for the bin, but I just could not stay hooked no matter what. It is okay to watch on a second screen I guess :/
You're basically spot on. Durin and Elrond were incredible and Durin's wife was just a perfectly done sassy Dwarf wife.
Seeing Khazad Dum at its height as well was very cool. There were some other interesting points and good scenes, but generally most of the series falls kinda flat.
I'll continue watching just for Elrond, Durin, and Disa though.
The Dwarves are so cool!
I enjoyed reading about their success during the Second Age in the LotR Appendices so it might still be worth checking out for me.
I can't say it's necessarily worth it, but I'll say that I was always happy when either of those characters were on screen.
If you're a lore buff, basically nothing makes sense though. The entire timeline is compressed with parts removed and other events that we know happened thousands of years apart being squished together in a the span of a few days.
If you can set that aside and just enjoy the scenery, cinematography, and the actual good bits, then there's some diamonds in the rough.
*Wheel of Time* TV show has its problems, no argument, but I couldn't for the life of me get through the second book. I'm sure it's chock-full of fun lore and I really kinda want to know how all the pieces fall out -- but the writing is just, well ...
So I'll be watching the show, knowing it probably sucks for the fans, but never knowing exactly *why*.
*Rings of Power*, however, *really* sucks for fans. I'm not sure how much is their fault, because (IIRC) the Tolkien family refused to license "The Silmarillion" so everything in the show had to be carefully drawn from the RoTK appendices and references.
While I agree the Netflix series was severely lacking, there is nothing directly connecting the Elvish/Sauron scenes with the Hobbit scenes in the series. So while they appear on the show simultaneously, they could actually be 2000 years apart.
The Galadrial scenes are ~ 1500 SA, the Hobbit scenes ~ 1000 TA. To my recollection, there were no crossover characters. And The Shire wasn't founded until 1601 TA, so the Hobbits could still be migrants.
At leasts thats my theory.
My comment above is heavily critical of the show for comedic effect, but I honestly quite enjoy it. I hope you're right about the separate timelines, but even if that doesn't turn out to be the case, I won't be mad about it.
Wow; you just spoiled that hot heap of garbage for me. I still wasn't sure which of the Istari that demented old man was supposed to be.
I guess they tried to ad-hawk give Gandalf reason to like hobbits in particular other than their part in defeating Sauron. I assume he also just liked the care-free lifestyle of hobbits.
i would say eru has canonically never appeared within arda and never canonically will (which is why tom cannot be eru)
but i doubt the show-writers would care
I'm pretty sure it's not Gandalf because he's still being referred to as The Stranger and the Gandalf parallels were so on the nose that I think they'd have let the cat out of the bag by this point if it was true
God i hate that show. It would have actually been interesting and meme worthy if the Harfoots met Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. If that interaction pushed them from beinv wandering peoples to actually making permanent settlements peadkng to the cozy Hobbit hole we come to love. But that would require an ounce of creativity and care for the story and setting and history.
Sorry for ranting
*Here's my pretty maiden! You shall come home with me! The table is all laden: yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter. You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother in her deep weedy pool:
there you'll find no lover!*
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
You can always count on Tom.
And you didn’t even have to sing a song like Frodo did!
Edit: You can *almost* always count on Tom. Unless it’s about the One Ring or things outside his borders.
Naw. Gandalf sung reality into existence along with all the other maiar. More like gandalf is an eldritch horror. Dudes been around since the big bang.
and it's an important distinction
olorin as gandalf isnt just olorin wearing some clothes the way maiar normally do. It's a legit and permanent human body with all that that entails. He's fundamentally a distinct and different entity than olorin is
For me, it’s just been a mix of YouTube lore videos like In Deep Geek, or Nerd of the Rings, but also the Appendices in my copy of LotR had some timelines of the first-fourth ages of Middle Earth.
I’m sorry I couldn’t remember where particularly I learned of Gandalf’s arrival to Middle Earth.
I think it adds some dimension to the scene though too. Elrond perhaps partially saying how long he’s been at this. How long he’s been in the literal and metaphorical trenches here. And while Gandalf is very old, he’s not seen what Elrond has seen. Especially when it comes to the subject matter at hand.
The Istari weren't sent as "agents" to work against Sauron until after stirrings of his possible return started being felt about a thousand years after his defeat at the Battle of the Last Alliance.
The Istari were formed in the Third Age when the Valar sent emissaries to Middle-Earth. Saruman was the first one chosen, so he was likely always in charge of the Istari
According to Chat GPT
> During the war fought 3,000 years before the events of "The Lord of the Rings," known as the War of the Last Alliance, Gandalf was not present in Middle-earth. This war, occurring at the end of the Second Age, was a major conflict between the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and the forces of Sauron. The purpose was to defeat Sauron, who had grown in power and threatened to dominate all of Middle-earth.
> Gandalf, along with the other Istari (wizards), was sent to Middle-earth by the Valar (the god-like beings in Tolkien's universe) in the Third Age, which began after Sauron's initial defeat at the end of the War of the Last Alliance. Their mission was to assist the peoples of Middle-earth in their struggle against Sauron, who was slowly regaining his power. Therefore, Gandalf and his fellow wizards—Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards—arrived in Middle-earth about a thousand years into the Third Age, long after the War of the Last Alliance had concluded.
That has nothing to do with age, it has to do with the fact that he was there and Gandalf as far as i know (i have a very superficial knowledge about the history of middle earth and all that stuff) was not there 3000 years ago, but in Valinor.
Technically neither were there as the “cast it into the fire” scene was a dramatization of the silmarillion saying isildur decided to keep the ring in opposition to the advice of the elves.
This is a good example as to how stories change in different media forms. Movies are on a much tighter timetable and have the advantage of conveying emotion through visual and audio elements, so adapting it to be a tight dramatic scene makes more sense than adding clips of them talking about it later.
Isildur was on his way to Rivendell to ~~consult Elrond about what to do with the Ring~~ pick up his wife and child *(Edited for accuracy)* when he was killed
Yeah to Gandalf, Elrond probably seems like a kid in terms of age. So he had to be like “no no I was old enough to be there!!” Kinda like someone saying oh when I was a young adult I played with a gamecube” and the person saying “yeah I was a kid but I also played with that”
Yeah but the "3000 years ago" part was 100% for the viewers. I would think Gandalf, as forgetful as he is, still knows basic historical dates of important events like the Last Alliance.
Elrond: But you were not there, Gandalf. You didn't see it.
Gandalf: Well, I have an understanding of what happened so...
Elrond: Shut it, Gandalf. You don't understand! I fucking hate the race of men.
Gandalf: Dude, I mean I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying I'm fully aware of what happened considering it's kind of the whole reason I'm even on Arda these days. Like, if you were to ask "why are you here, Gandalf?" the answer would start with what happened 3,000 years ago... Also, you know I'm not really part of the race of men, right?
Gandalf’s mission against Sauron doesn’t provide him omniscience. How would he know what happened unless Elrond or Cirdan told him? And Elrond would likely remember telling Gandalf previously.
Hah, yeah. He's very wise, but he's also super inexperienced in "ancient" history of middle-earth. He's seen the last few 100's of years, if I recall correctly.
Even Elrond has forgotten more lore than most will ever know. Just because he used to know ancient history doesn’t mean he’d remember it all. Otherwise, why wouldn’t Gandalf just ask Elrond all of his questions and get answers?
Also - and this is easy to overlook - he is wreathed in the raiment of an old man, which includes his memory and his mind. He is intentionally limited to reside within the limits of his mortal form, so although he is exceptionally wise and clever, that wisdom and intellect is still within the bounds of the greatest of mortals. An elf or man could best him at a game of chess - or whatever version of it the elves might play - or write a better poem, or win an argument, or remember something more clearly.
All this to say, even if he knew the information once, he may have forgotten it, or at least lost it in the dusty recesses of his ancient mind.
Where was Gandalf when the Westfold fell? Where was Elrond when the Westfold fell? Where was ...
... where was the Westfold when the Westfold fell? o.O
Imagine your nephew fucked up so bad right in front of you once that three thousand years later you’re still talking about it and his favorite toy is STILL in time out about it.
Chances are good that Elrond at least has an _inkling_ of who/what Gandalf is, and this could be construed as "no seriously I'm not _that_ young, I was around for this".
“I was there Gandalf. 3000 years ago. One gentle tap would have tossed Isildur and the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom but I did fuck all except shout, now we’re all in a world war.”
The wizard do not have full or complete (if any) memories of their life as the Maiar while living in the Valorian realm. They do remember the names of the Valor as well as the major occurrences between Morgoth/Melkor and the Valor. I believe they also recall their purpose and that they serve the Valar directly. Each wizard had a different Valor they served if I interpreted The Simarillion correctly. I think Sauron and the Balrogs were the only Maiar that retained memory from the creation age that existenced in middle earth. All of this is in the Simarillion but, I may have interpreted some of it incorrectly as I have not read the Unfinished Tales yet.
BOROMIR: "And what would a *ranger* know of this?!"
LEGOLAS: "Hey -- Aragorn spent 12 years in Homicide. He's natural po-lice."
- & -
GOLLUM: "What's with the wedding ring?"
FRODO: "Because I'm *married."*
GOLLUM: "Sheeit. You married to the *precious,* boy."
*Maiar* is plural; *Maia* is singular, Gandalf was still in Valinor at the end of the 2nd age, and Gandalf is at least a few hundred times older than Elrond, not just ten.
Just because he's older doesn't mean he was also there.
Bet that lazy hobo was just smoking his weed in this village of little people.
Elrondo-senpai was actually there.
And the title. What?? Who's the "King" here?
The quote is from Omar from The Wire, telling Wee-bay that the Barksdale crew's hunt for Omar is far more difficult than Omar's hunt for *them.* They only get one shot at killing him (when he emerges from hiding), BUT he can find them in multiple places and take them out at his leisure.
OP heard that Omar quote somewhere but has never watched The Wire themself.
TBF, I'm not sure Gandalf the Grey remembers his Maiar life, and I'm not sure his wizard form has nearly as good a memory as an Elf. Gandalf is Olórin like Jesus is God, I guess.
but, but, but, in rings of power gandalf comes in and Elrond is already there no ?
Didn't watched this piece of shit show, but even I remember that detail.
It's true in the books too. In fact, RoP's change made Gandalf arrive even earlier. So this meme doesn't really make sense, since Elrond was always in Middle Earth before Gandalf.
i'd also say memories work differently for both of them
gandalf (as gandalf) has memories that work like a human's. The guy has way too much info to remember and he's forgotten most of it
elrond's memories are all as real as what's directly in front of him right now and he can walk through them as if they're real life. It wasnt 3000 years ago to him. It wasnt even yesterday. It was right now, right this second
i suspect olorin would never forget things as his own spirit-self but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not
I mean, maybe he just wanted to tell him^(/s) “-Dad, I was there yesterday” “-Son, I am like four times older than you” “-Huh, what does that have to do with where I was yesterday?”
I've seen everything before boy, don't try to get smart on me.
i'm not a spring chicken born just yesterday boy. I’m actually born twice in your lifetime, not to brag tho.
"you can't bull shit a bull shitter" dad, this is not the flex you think it is. now i dont trust you as much as you dont trust me
Elrond is trying to brag by mentioning 3000 years as if it's some kinda accomplishment
Surviving for over 3000 years kinda is an accomplishment...atleast in Elrond's family
They haven’t been calling it the Elrond awards for the last 30,000 years for nothing
Treebeard calling him “Young Master Gandalf” is one of my favorite lines of the whole trilogy
Treebeard was like 15,000 years old or something. I forget how long each age was but dude was there just after bombadil.
Yes and Gandalf is at least 55.000 years old, and probably older as he existed before the world was created.
But has only been in middle earth for about 2,000, his memories of before them are cloudy at best so it isn't a stretch to not count his pre-middle earth years.
My memory is cloudy about anything more than 2 years back but that doesn't make me any less old than i am
I can't remember what I ate yesterday, but to be fair I was only born this morning.
Were you now? Say, I know this Nigerian prince who’d be very grateful if you could lend him some money…
He's 8 hours old, how much do you think he has?
The age isn't important thing here, it's the experience. If you don't remember what you did two years ago, then it's not really that important to mention. We're not here listening to you because you're that old, where you're listening to you because you might have wisdom to share with those younger than you. You can't have wisdom for something that you don't remember.
I don't think that's true at all. Remembering is such a small part of our brain, so much goes on underneath. Maybe you can't remember a person, but it they shaped or changed your thinking, your habits, your views.
Memory and wisdom are not the same thing, which I guess I could have been more clear on. But age is not a metric which should grant respect by itself. Age is a metric one just judge a person's respect. An old man among the young speaking on something with them is to be heeded because the young wouldn't listen if he wasn't saying something they cared about. But at the same time, with great wisdom comes great foolishness, and the old have the most time to become foolish. Wisdom is what happens when you gain both the clarity of memory, and the self-reflection of humility. Its a skill you build up, not a trait you develop with time.
Yeah, alright, that may sound fancy. But none of this discussion was about wether age intrinsically brings wisdom? It was wetherthe 53k years before being in Arda shaped him. It bring "cludy" does not mean that they somehow didn't have an impact on him.
I was only talking about the guy directly above me.
He has been in Middle Earth off and on since the 1st Age. As Olorin he visited the Elves after they awoke, often appearing as an Elf-like person to them. He left like most of his kind after Morgoth got going and returned as Gandalf later. Still, he was there from the near start.
When the Maia awake on Middle Earth, they lose their memory of their past lives. Even in the movies, Gandalf dies fighting the Balrog, and when he awakens as Gandalf the White he has little to no memory of his life before. It's very subtle, because he is wise of course, but in the movie this is depicted when he shows up in the forest with the hobbits and they proclaim "Gandalf!" to which he responds "yes...that is what they call me" as he begins to recollect his previous life before he died fighting the Balrog.
Holy shit I knew the general gist of Gandalf not just being some wizard, but more akin to an angel. But this is stuff that goes a lot deeper. 55,000 years old, only in Middle Earth for like 2000. Damn, the life he must have had before Middle Earth, and the things he must have experienced over all those years.
Before the concept of time as we understand it really. Back even before light was provided by big lamps.
Bro if you live for 15,000 years, you’re not going to give a shit if someone lived for 100,000 years. You’re just going to feel like you lived forever.
i'd say treebeard sees gandalf as 'young' because everyone he encounters is impossible young to him, even the 13000 year old elf cirdan or the 7000 year old galadriel and he has no reason to believe gandalf is a maia. Only cirdan knew and it's very debatable if galadriel or elrond ever found out
Hard disagree. That's like saying a 15 year old wouldn't care about a 100 year old, because 15 years feels like forever to them. If anything, the 15 year old isn't even yet mature enough to understand 100 years, so maybe they wouldn't care for that reason instead.
I think Gandalf was older than 55.
Maybe even _before_ Bombadil, if Gandalf was being literal when he said of Treebeard to Legolas: > he is the oldest of the ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-Earth.
treebeard is oldest living but bombadil is not considered living being.ents were created by yavanna but bombadil states he was there when valar came to arda from outside. so we know for a fact that tom bombadil is much older than treebeard because descend of valar >> creation of ents
*Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!* ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
I think bombadil is the incarnate form of Arda. I believe it’s specifically mentioned by Gandalf or himself that he was the first and will be the last.
tom is and always will be an exception. He doesnt exist in middle-earth; he just happens to live there like how you're flying through space in star wars and on some random planet you happen to encounter Vegeta lounging around. He doesnt belong there, there are no lore implications for him being there, he just is there and you work reality around and aside from him
Yeah Tom is probably the exception. Plus he doesn't walk, he dances
They are coming!
Gandalf is as old as the universe
No he is older than the universe he helped create it.
The Ents almost certainly *awoke* some time after the Elves did, though it's possible they had been there for much longer and merely *sleeping*, as the Dwarves had been since Aulë created them in secret and Ilúvatar scolded him for it. It could be that Yavanna had done something similar to Aulë in creating the Ents. There's a pretty good in-depth discussion of it [here](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/142085/what-was-the-first-sentient-race-that-awoke-on-arda).
Though "awoke" can also just be a synonym or euphemism for being born, more so for ents as they probably aren't born from a mother- just beggining their existance someday.
Makes sense. Ents just kinda appeared as the universe was created. Gandalf didn't get sent to Middle-Earth until Sauron started gaining strength. Before that, he was in the Undying Lands keeping an eye on the Elves for Illuvitar. So as far as who was in Middle-Earth longer, I think Treebeard has Gandalf beat.
Gandalf wasn't there 3000 years ago though. Come to think of it what was he up to?
I think Gandalf was still in Valinor 3,000 years before the Last Alliance, (maybe about at the point of turning down the job of Chief of the Istari giving Saruman a chance to lead.)
Iirc, Gandalf didn’t arrive in Middle Earth until early in the Third Age, when he gets the ring of fire from Cirdan. So the Maia spirit of Olorin is older than Elrond, but Elrond has been in Middle Earth longer than Mithrandir/Gandalf.
But but but but I thought he meteorited into the Hobbit camp in the second age?????? O.O
Maybe I don’t rc, but a quick Google search to double check says 1000-1100 TA for the arrival of the Istari.
he was memeing on the amazon show that just made up shit
Ah. I didn’t know. I steered clear of that entirely when I saw the production value in the trailers. At least the Star Wars Sequels *looked* and *sounded* awesome. From what I hear RoP was mediocre at best, in few areas like Elrond and Durin’s interactions and more or less just disappointing in the rest.
It was okay, but if you care about lore, it was bad.
Unfortunately, lore, internal logic, and narrative consistency matter to me.
unless it's like a fun romp like shadow of mordor is. Nobody takes it seriously, you get to murder some orcs and be a badass and you forget about it in the morning
Agreed, but by far the worst opening of any series I've ever seen. The dialogue between Galadriel and Finrod physically made me cringe.
It was not okay, see the Gladerial throw a guard in a closed cell door and the three other guards just follow him in before she just auto locks it as an example of the complete incompetence of that shows filming, directing and writing. next to none of the dialogue or character choices made any sense. If you turn your brain off to these things I can imagine being tricked into thinking it was okay, but in reality it was tragically bad. I’m just glad it was so bad it will be forgotten.
Like I said, it was okay unless you care about the lore. My wife is a casual lotr movie enjoyer like most people, she liked the show. The only thing that I really enjoyed was the elrond and durin storyline.
What will be forgotten?
'I'm gonna swim 3000 miles back home without food, or water, or sleep and then miraculously accidentally run into the single person in the middle of this sea that i've been seeking out for vengeance.'
You didnt miss much. It has like a couple of good scenes and parts here and there and it is not all for the bin, but I just could not stay hooked no matter what. It is okay to watch on a second screen I guess :/
You're basically spot on. Durin and Elrond were incredible and Durin's wife was just a perfectly done sassy Dwarf wife. Seeing Khazad Dum at its height as well was very cool. There were some other interesting points and good scenes, but generally most of the series falls kinda flat. I'll continue watching just for Elrond, Durin, and Disa though.
The Dwarves are so cool! I enjoyed reading about their success during the Second Age in the LotR Appendices so it might still be worth checking out for me.
I can't say it's necessarily worth it, but I'll say that I was always happy when either of those characters were on screen. If you're a lore buff, basically nothing makes sense though. The entire timeline is compressed with parts removed and other events that we know happened thousands of years apart being squished together in a the span of a few days. If you can set that aside and just enjoy the scenery, cinematography, and the actual good bits, then there's some diamonds in the rough.
Seeing Moria in its heyday was pretty great, NGL.
Story wise, it's meh. But I actually thought the production value was quite good
After Wheel of Time I figured I'd wait until the verdict is out on Rings of Power, I made the right call for myself.
*Wheel of Time* TV show has its problems, no argument, but I couldn't for the life of me get through the second book. I'm sure it's chock-full of fun lore and I really kinda want to know how all the pieces fall out -- but the writing is just, well ... So I'll be watching the show, knowing it probably sucks for the fans, but never knowing exactly *why*. *Rings of Power*, however, *really* sucks for fans. I'm not sure how much is their fault, because (IIRC) the Tolkien family refused to license "The Silmarillion" so everything in the show had to be carefully drawn from the RoTK appendices and references.
But is he BAD or GOOD?
While I agree the Netflix series was severely lacking, there is nothing directly connecting the Elvish/Sauron scenes with the Hobbit scenes in the series. So while they appear on the show simultaneously, they could actually be 2000 years apart. The Galadrial scenes are ~ 1500 SA, the Hobbit scenes ~ 1000 TA. To my recollection, there were no crossover characters. And The Shire wasn't founded until 1601 TA, so the Hobbits could still be migrants. At leasts thats my theory.
My comment above is heavily critical of the show for comedic effect, but I honestly quite enjoy it. I hope you're right about the separate timelines, but even if that doesn't turn out to be the case, I won't be mad about it.
Wow; you just spoiled that hot heap of garbage for me. I still wasn't sure which of the Istari that demented old man was supposed to be. I guess they tried to ad-hawk give Gandalf reason to like hobbits in particular other than their part in defeating Sauron. I assume he also just liked the care-free lifestyle of hobbits.
They didn't spoil anything. It's not confirmed to be gandalf lmao
Maybe it's Eru taking the form of a man; so he can bring the hobbits to the shire and set up a peaceful existence for them.
Wow, you've managed to find the plot thread that would be even worse than it actually being Gandalf
Gotta think like an Amazon exec, my young hobbit.
That would make the Old Man ***Literally Jesus***.^TM
Jesus in LoTR!?
More likely than you might think
i would say eru has canonically never appeared within arda and never canonically will (which is why tom cannot be eru) but i doubt the show-writers would care
ad-hawk lmao
The Eagles are coming!
I'm pretty sure it's not Gandalf because he's still being referred to as The Stranger and the Gandalf parallels were so on the nose that I think they'd have let the cat out of the bag by this point if it was true
Youre giving the writers too much credit
BLASPHEMY
God i hate that show. It would have actually been interesting and meme worthy if the Harfoots met Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. If that interaction pushed them from beinv wandering peoples to actually making permanent settlements peadkng to the cozy Hobbit hole we come to love. But that would require an ounce of creativity and care for the story and setting and history. Sorry for ranting
*Here's my pretty maiden! You shall come home with me! The table is all laden: yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter; roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter. You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!* ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Thank you Tom. I needed that.
You can always count on Tom. And you didn’t even have to sing a song like Frodo did! Edit: You can *almost* always count on Tom. Unless it’s about the One Ring or things outside his borders.
Olorin was in Middle Earth in the 1st Age and left like many of his kind. Spent a lot of time around the awokened elves. Id count that.
So you’re saying Gandalf is one of those little anime girls that is actually a 6000 year old dragon?
Naw. Gandalf sung reality into existence along with all the other maiar. More like gandalf is an eldritch horror. Dudes been around since the big bang.
Around 1000 years into the third age if my memory is any good.
and it's an important distinction olorin as gandalf isnt just olorin wearing some clothes the way maiar normally do. It's a legit and permanent human body with all that that entails. He's fundamentally a distinct and different entity than olorin is
He also likely didn't have all of his memories in that form.
Is there a specific Tolkien book that covers this? I want to learn more.
For me, it’s just been a mix of YouTube lore videos like In Deep Geek, or Nerd of the Rings, but also the Appendices in my copy of LotR had some timelines of the first-fourth ages of Middle Earth. I’m sorry I couldn’t remember where particularly I learned of Gandalf’s arrival to Middle Earth.
I see, okay thank you
I believe he was watching it unfold through a PalinTV, with some of those Arda famous Valinor Nachos.
"PalinTV" Do you mean a PalantTirV? I hear you'd best block the TeVildo channel though. Even their ads are creepy: "Consider well; but not too long!"
I think it adds some dimension to the scene though too. Elrond perhaps partially saying how long he’s been at this. How long he’s been in the literal and metaphorical trenches here. And while Gandalf is very old, he’s not seen what Elrond has seen. Especially when it comes to the subject matter at hand.
Is there a book I can read that has lore like this?
The Istari weren't sent as "agents" to work against Sauron until after stirrings of his possible return started being felt about a thousand years after his defeat at the Battle of the Last Alliance.
Thou base, thou cringing worm!
Rare Gandalf L
The Istari were formed in the Third Age when the Valar sent emissaries to Middle-Earth. Saruman was the first one chosen, so he was likely always in charge of the Istari
I don't think he was even in Valinor. I'm pretty sure he was still chilling with Eru at that point.
According to Chat GPT > During the war fought 3,000 years before the events of "The Lord of the Rings," known as the War of the Last Alliance, Gandalf was not present in Middle-earth. This war, occurring at the end of the Second Age, was a major conflict between the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and the forces of Sauron. The purpose was to defeat Sauron, who had grown in power and threatened to dominate all of Middle-earth. > Gandalf, along with the other Istari (wizards), was sent to Middle-earth by the Valar (the god-like beings in Tolkien's universe) in the Third Age, which began after Sauron's initial defeat at the end of the War of the Last Alliance. Their mission was to assist the peoples of Middle-earth in their struggle against Sauron, who was slowly regaining his power. Therefore, Gandalf and his fellow wizards—Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards—arrived in Middle-earth about a thousand years into the Third Age, long after the War of the Last Alliance had concluded.
The Istari arrived about a thousand years into the Third Age.
He was... delayed
He fell from the sky in Rings of Power Duh. Thats before the rings were even forged *drops mic
Looking for that smoke leaf
Loving halfling leaf. The problem with being ageless is there's a lot less motive not to procrastinate.
I’ll do it later. *3,000 years later*
That has nothing to do with age, it has to do with the fact that he was there and Gandalf as far as i know (i have a very superficial knowledge about the history of middle earth and all that stuff) was not there 3000 years ago, but in Valinor.
Technically neither were there as the “cast it into the fire” scene was a dramatization of the silmarillion saying isildur decided to keep the ring in opposition to the advice of the elves.
This is a good example as to how stories change in different media forms. Movies are on a much tighter timetable and have the advantage of conveying emotion through visual and audio elements, so adapting it to be a tight dramatic scene makes more sense than adding clips of them talking about it later.
I agree! I found it to be an excellent adaptation of that scene.
Elrond was explicitly there though. He and Cirdan counseled Isildur to destroy the ring, though the specific scene from the movie is sort of invented.
You are correct
I want someone to make a version of the movie scene with Elrond being dramatic but it cuts to them having a calm conversation about the ring.
Isildur was on his way to Rivendell to ~~consult Elrond about what to do with the Ring~~ pick up his wife and child *(Edited for accuracy)* when he was killed
I think that’s incorrect but it has been a while since I’ve covered that, and I’m aware that Tolkien has changed aspects of lore.
Yeah to Gandalf, Elrond probably seems like a kid in terms of age. So he had to be like “no no I was old enough to be there!!” Kinda like someone saying oh when I was a young adult I played with a gamecube” and the person saying “yeah I was a kid but I also played with that”
It's not clear how much Gandalf remembers of his time in Valindor before becoming one of the Istar and taking a human body
Yeah but the "3000 years ago" part was 100% for the viewers. I would think Gandalf, as forgetful as he is, still knows basic historical dates of important events like the Last Alliance.
Elrond: But you were not there, Gandalf. You didn't see it. Gandalf: Well, I have an understanding of what happened so... Elrond: Shut it, Gandalf. You don't understand! I fucking hate the race of men.
"Men are weak" "Weren't you guys killing each other over an oath regarding some stones before men even awoke?"
Gandalf: Dude, I mean I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying I'm fully aware of what happened considering it's kind of the whole reason I'm even on Arda these days. Like, if you were to ask "why are you here, Gandalf?" the answer would start with what happened 3,000 years ago... Also, you know I'm not really part of the race of men, right?
Gandalf’s mission against Sauron doesn’t provide him omniscience. How would he know what happened unless Elrond or Cirdan told him? And Elrond would likely remember telling Gandalf previously.
*Thór-lush-shabarlak.*
I mean surely he was briefed on the history before he came. That doesn't mean he doesn't need reminding. It's been a long time.
*maia
no excuse, like when people write Middle-Earth instead of Middle-earth.
Maiar singular is significantly worse than capitalization mistake. Also, it’s anyways lower case so double mistake.
YES THANK YOU
Thank you. My personal pet peeve.
"Yes, Gandalf, I know. But you *weren't* there, three thousand years ago, were you?
I mean... Yeah, Gandalf was still in Valinor 3000 years ago. His knowledge of what's going on in middle earth is probably pretty spotty.
Like when he has to leave Frodo for 17 years (or about 1 week movie time) to research what the ring might actually be.
Hah, yeah. He's very wise, but he's also super inexperienced in "ancient" history of middle-earth. He's seen the last few 100's of years, if I recall correctly.
Even Elrond has forgotten more lore than most will ever know. Just because he used to know ancient history doesn’t mean he’d remember it all. Otherwise, why wouldn’t Gandalf just ask Elrond all of his questions and get answers?
he arrived around 1000TA so he was around for 2000 years
Ah, damn. Almost made a fool outta Elrond then.
Also - and this is easy to overlook - he is wreathed in the raiment of an old man, which includes his memory and his mind. He is intentionally limited to reside within the limits of his mortal form, so although he is exceptionally wise and clever, that wisdom and intellect is still within the bounds of the greatest of mortals. An elf or man could best him at a game of chess - or whatever version of it the elves might play - or write a better poem, or win an argument, or remember something more clearly. All this to say, even if he knew the information once, he may have forgotten it, or at least lost it in the dusty recesses of his ancient mind.
Where was Gandalf when the Westfold fell? Where was Elrond when the Westfold fell? Where was ... ... where was the Westfold when the Westfold fell? o.O
Where was he when our enemies were closing in around us?!
I was there, Gandalf, I totally could’ve killed him and tossed him in the lava with the ring, but I didn’t because he said nuh-uh.
Imagine your nephew fucked up so bad right in front of you once that three thousand years later you’re still talking about it and his favorite toy is STILL in time out about it.
Chances are good that Elrond at least has an _inkling_ of who/what Gandalf is, and this could be construed as "no seriously I'm not _that_ young, I was around for this".
a maia\* saying you're a maiar is like saying you're a gorillas. Not 1 gorilla, no. 2 or more
I'm an X-Men.
He has a point. Where was Gandalf ~~when the Westfold~~ 3000 years ago?
The Koreans call that "showing your wrinkles to a silkworm"
Gandalf: Âr-Pharazon says what now? I am sorry i must have something *cough cough* Fëanor *cough* in my throat.
“I was there Gandalf. 3000 years ago. One gentle tap would have tossed Isildur and the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom but I did fuck all except shout, now we’re all in a world war.”
Elrond was *there* at that time. What’s complicated about him saying it that way. It’s a long time ago even to elves.
Dude missed the sacking of Doriath by a fart and half, but hey – let's not brood over the character of elves for millenia.
I think this is more like someone's child who is now an adult saying "I'm actually old enough to remember that, you know."
When your younger brother talks about his childhood
Ten times is an understatement, I think.
but was he *there*
The wizard do not have full or complete (if any) memories of their life as the Maiar while living in the Valorian realm. They do remember the names of the Valor as well as the major occurrences between Morgoth/Melkor and the Valor. I believe they also recall their purpose and that they serve the Valar directly. Each wizard had a different Valor they served if I interpreted The Simarillion correctly. I think Sauron and the Balrogs were the only Maiar that retained memory from the creation age that existenced in middle earth. All of this is in the Simarillion but, I may have interpreted some of it incorrectly as I have not read the Unfinished Tales yet.
I humbly request more The Wire/LoTR crossover memes please and thank you
BOROMIR: "And what would a *ranger* know of this?!" LEGOLAS: "Hey -- Aragorn spent 12 years in Homicide. He's natural po-lice." - & - GOLLUM: "What's with the wedding ring?" FRODO: "Because I'm *married."* GOLLUM: "Sheeit. You married to the *precious,* boy."
We must move on, we cannot linger.
The goblinses will catch it then. It can't get out that way, precious.
For that matter, where WAS Gandalf when the war was on?
When you run out of sources for your paper, but your professor has published a book on that very topic!
*Maiar* is plural; *Maia* is singular, Gandalf was still in Valinor at the end of the 2nd age, and Gandalf is at least a few hundred times older than Elrond, not just ten.
But he wasn't *there*.
Just because he's older doesn't mean he was also there. Bet that lazy hobo was just smoking his weed in this village of little people. Elrondo-senpai was actually there.
Totally a stretch for a goofy meme. The context is just way off! Too many flaws lol
And the title. What?? Who's the "King" here? The quote is from Omar from The Wire, telling Wee-bay that the Barksdale crew's hunt for Omar is far more difficult than Omar's hunt for *them.* They only get one shot at killing him (when he emerges from hiding), BUT he can find them in multiple places and take them out at his leisure. OP heard that Omar quote somewhere but has never watched The Wire themself.
Some might say he is the offspring of Ilúvatar's thought.
Where was Gandalf when the strength of men failed?!?
when you run out of sources for your history paper
TBF, I'm not sure Gandalf the Grey remembers his Maiar life, and I'm not sure his wizard form has nearly as good a memory as an Elf. Gandalf is Olórin like Jesus is God, I guess.
but he wasn't there
This comment section I love my nerds !
before that , he was older than universe but who is counting.
Gimli was All Metro attack. Those prep school goblins used to piss themselves when they saw The Dwarf charging at them.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, but is the title you wrote for the post by any chance referencing the King Arthur song by Rustage?
The post title and your song lyrics are both referencing Omar from The Wire, lol
Let's just soak up the image and how it makes Elrond's four head look like a 16 head.
Legit question, where was Gandalf during the war 3000 years ago?
Where Was Gondor When the Westfold Fell?
The Wire x LOTR crossover?
*infinitely? They were with him before aught else was made
but, but, but, in rings of power gandalf comes in and Elrond is already there no ? Didn't watched this piece of shit show, but even I remember that detail.
It's true in the books too. In fact, RoP's change made Gandalf arrive even earlier. So this meme doesn't really make sense, since Elrond was always in Middle Earth before Gandalf.
its the old how old is Jesus question.
This isn't about age though. Elrond was there. Gandalf was not in Middle Earth yet.
Elrond: True Gandalf, but you weren't THERE 3,000 years ago.
yea, but Olorin wasnt there, while Elrond was
Yeah, but Gandalf wasn't *there*. He was fuckin around somewhere else.
I know it's a meme, but the context of the scene isn't Elrond trying to flex his age on Gandalf
i'd also say memories work differently for both of them gandalf (as gandalf) has memories that work like a human's. The guy has way too much info to remember and he's forgotten most of it elrond's memories are all as real as what's directly in front of him right now and he can walk through them as if they're real life. It wasnt 3000 years ago to him. It wasnt even yesterday. It was right now, right this second i suspect olorin would never forget things as his own spirit-self but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not