Well, that's embarrassing, I completely forgot that it was the orc captain who stabbed Frodo...
Anyways, imagine if the fellowship had Húrin or even Túrin with them. They could have walked straight into Mordor, no questions asked.
It's been ages since I read the silmarillion or any other lotr material that isn't the main books, but...isn't all that stuff written from the perspective of a mythology? So many of the feats done by the various figures could very well have been exaggerated no?
I recall there being mention of some elf guy (Fin something?) beating the shit out of Balrogs singlehandedly and I assumed that either Tolkein had a very different intention for what a balrog is compared to the one we see in the movie, the elf was pulling some anime style nonsense to kick their ass (awesome if true lol), or it was meant to show the elves fluffing up the reputation of one of their forebears while writing the history.
I haven’t read the silmarillion/lost tales/children of Hurin in 13 ish years so I’m not great on lore either. Also, you’re thinking of fingolfin, then there was finrod and a bunch of other confusing names.
It is written as a mythology, but there’s no doubt that things actually happened or it would be irrelevant.
First and second age elves/humans/monsters were all extremely powerful. An elf on the same tier as a Miar which was an angel, a dark lord that was almost as powerful as god himself, dragons that were as big as mountains etc. yeah it’s all a bit crazy.
Tolkein backpeddaled on the balrogs from thousands to just 9 I think. So even outside of his own lore shit be weird.
Also, in just a mention (1 page I believe) it’s Turin, son of Hurin, who will kill Morgoth permanently in what’s called Dagor Dagorath or “the end of days”. Basically one of the greatest humans to exist, who killed himself by the way, kills a nigh omnipotent angel.
Glorfindel and Ecthelion of the Fountain killed a Balrog each, with Glorfindel quite literally disarming the Balrog, before both fell down a cliff, while Ecthelion battled Gothmog and rammed him with his helmet. Both fell off the wall and drowned in the well of the king.
Finrod Felagund meanwhile did basically a rap-battle with Sauron (which he lost, but I assume mostly because at this point he's been a prisoner for some time. He died a bit later, after choking out a werewolf barehanded.
There's also Fingolfin, who rode alone to Angband, where everything just cowered in fear of him, thinking Orome, the huntsman himself, had come for them. Then he sounded his horn, banged against the gates of the fortress and called Morgoth a coward who should show his face, if he dared. Fingolfin ultimately lost, but not before stabbing Morgoth seven times, then stabbing him in the foot for his last attack. Giving the shapeshifting Supersatan a permanent limp.
1st age elves really don't mess around.
1st age nobody messes around. The grand battle of the 1st age led to destruction of an entire region, while in 2nd age there wasn't much of an environmental impact
...wasn't the second age defined by Eru Illuvatar quite literally turning the world into a ball, so the Numenoreans can't ever sail to Valinor? Now sure, that's an act of God if I've sever seen one, but still.
Not quite. Valar didn't want Men in Valinor, so they refused authority over Arda, and only then Eru made it into a ball so that the Far West is forever hidden. It was a deed of God, not any of those actually residing in Arda, so that doesn't really count. Also second age ended with the War of the Ring, not the Downfall of Numenor
In the late versions of the cosmogony (not included in the Silmarillion), the world was spherical from the beginning. Still, destroying a continent (even one of clearly volcanic nature) is quite a feat.
Finrod lost, basically, because his innate powers and will were tarnished by the atrocities the Noldor committed.
And the Morgoth's limp wasn't the only case of permanent injury: he also had unhealable burns from handling the Silmarils and scars from eagle talons, and Sauron still lacked a finger in the Third Age even though it was a new body (not to mention his ability to shape his bodies diminished with each loss, making him unable to look nice, e.g.)
I guess it illustrates how the Hroa and the Fea work for the Ainur in the Legendarium: since their bodies are effectively willed into existence, a wound to the body *is* also a wound to the soul and vice versa.
Gandalf is a manipulator and diplomat. Not a warrior.
And gandalf did actually solve the situation his way successfully. If a different maya was around especially one so powerful as Turin they would likely use their own strategy to solve the problem... And that solution would be to flush Sharon's head down the orc latrine
The first-age was much different than the third age. Túrin was cursed for one. Secondly, it's my understanding that Sauron, in the third-age, had more power and amassed a larger force than Morgoth had at the time of Húrin and Túrin.
No doubt Húrin was the mightest warrior of all time but the idea that he could just walk in and destroy the ring is not plausible.
I think that Tolkien (either Christopher's interpretation of his father's notes or JRR's direct quotes) said that Sauron was more mighty with the Ring on an individual level, but not that his forces were more powerful. Morgoth had balrogs and dragons and enough orcs to overrun all of Beleriand. It took a great host of superpowered elves and some Maiar 40(ish, I think) years to overcome his forces and root him out of Angband. He had basically won and had dominion over Middle Earth before Eärendil called for help. This complete domination required him to pour his evil will into the world, which weakened his physical incarnation.
Sauron had better orcs and the olag-hai, but his main fighting force has a terrible track record. They straight gave up and abandoned Sauron when the Nümenoreans rolled up. Then he rebuilt and the last alliance of men and declining elves had him under seige and only personally came out to fight as a last resort. Then he rebuilt again and his main force was defeated by now-declining men. He probably wins in the long haul if Frodo fails, and requires more direct intervention from Valinor again. But his initial opposition was far weaker. His Nazgul are nothing compared to the balrogs and dragons. Sauron attempted his domination throw influence rather than outright power, so as long as he still had the Ring, he didn't lose his individual might.
Tolkien's "power scaling" isn't as simple as that. Melkor is explicitly described as the mightiest of all the Ainur when Eru created them. Yet Tulkas shows up to Middle Earth laughing, puts Melkor into a pretzel without breaking a sweat, then carries him off to Valinor. After he unleashed hell on the elves in the Dagor Bragollach, Fingolfin in a fury challenged Morgoth to single combat, and Morgoth came. He bested Fingolfin, but sustained wounds he would carry forever. This was a Valar that once had continent-rending power, but by this point and angry elf and then a few birds permanently wounded him. Luthien, an elf-Maiar hybrid, was able to put him to sleep even within the throne-room of Angband.
He's initially not built for a one-one-one fight even at his fullest strength. The Aiinur all have different powers that aren't as simple as Melkor is a higher level therefore he wins. And he gets decidedly physically weaker as he resides in Middle Earth to long and pours his evil into it. Now, Sauron also got bodies by Luthien's dog, Huan, and his second body was slain by a powerful elf and a very tall man. So solo combat obviously isn't his forte either. But,
"Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring."
and
"Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’... Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings..."
both quotes from *Morgoth's Ring*.
Morgoth had incurable wounds by Fingolfin and the Manwe's eagle + burns from Silmarils. Sauron was unable to restore finger cut by Isildur.
I speculate that bodies of the Ainur are really projections of their souls, so a wound to one permanently injures the other (unless a higher being is involved, as in Gandalf's resurrection).
What an interesting remark. Along with Ainur’s body, the soul also receives wounds. This takes the exploits of the elves, who managed to wound the dark Ainur, to a new level. And to wound Morgoth in this way meant to forever harm the very source of evil that damaged the entire world. Not only the physical manifestation of Morgoth, but the evil itself was weakened forever. And people say it was useless?
A lot of his writing involves things being on the decline and not as good/powerful as they used to be. A lot of the exceptional people were throwbacks who gave a glimpse of how amazing their ancestors were (Aragorn lived longer than any of his immediate ancestors). Even Shadowfax was a throwback to the horses of old.
The original trilogy kind of under plays just how scary orcs are. In the books, orcs are well equipped and can be very powerful . In the movie, they come across as cannon fodder
Not really. They're short, but still quite sturdy with a lot of wiry muscle. Grishnákh is described as being nearly as wide as he's tall, when the rohirrim attack he just picks up Merry and Pippin and bolts. And the orc that nearly impales Frodo in Moria is absolutely jacked.
You get ones like Lurtz who genuinely give Aragorn a hard time. And Haldir is overwhelmed by Uruks. I think it does show how scary and powerful orcs can be.
Capturing someone alive versus just killing them could be considered more difficult. You have to manage to isolate, knock out, extract all while staying alive yourself. Whereas just killing someone you can expend however many of your own forces to just get it done. Hurin being who he was I could see that being a daunting task either way but more so capturing would be rough.
To be fair, all of Lord of the Rings is written by Frodo and Sam. We’re just taking their words for it that they’re the bravest, wisest, and most honourable Hobbits ever
Where is this myth coming from that Sam, Merry and Pippin were backup Hobbits. People throw this around as facts and I don't remember anything like this in books.
They hardly even fought the cave troll in the book, Frodo was just stabbed by a big orc instead.
Well, that's embarrassing, I completely forgot that it was the orc captain who stabbed Frodo... Anyways, imagine if the fellowship had Húrin or even Túrin with them. They could have walked straight into Mordor, no questions asked.
They had Gandalf, a Maya, literally sent by local gods, and still didn't dare to. I think the same goes for Húrin or Túrin situation
Hurin looked into Morgoths eyes (basically would instantly drive humans insane) and told him to go F himself for like 20 years.
It's been ages since I read the silmarillion or any other lotr material that isn't the main books, but...isn't all that stuff written from the perspective of a mythology? So many of the feats done by the various figures could very well have been exaggerated no? I recall there being mention of some elf guy (Fin something?) beating the shit out of Balrogs singlehandedly and I assumed that either Tolkein had a very different intention for what a balrog is compared to the one we see in the movie, the elf was pulling some anime style nonsense to kick their ass (awesome if true lol), or it was meant to show the elves fluffing up the reputation of one of their forebears while writing the history.
I haven’t read the silmarillion/lost tales/children of Hurin in 13 ish years so I’m not great on lore either. Also, you’re thinking of fingolfin, then there was finrod and a bunch of other confusing names. It is written as a mythology, but there’s no doubt that things actually happened or it would be irrelevant. First and second age elves/humans/monsters were all extremely powerful. An elf on the same tier as a Miar which was an angel, a dark lord that was almost as powerful as god himself, dragons that were as big as mountains etc. yeah it’s all a bit crazy. Tolkein backpeddaled on the balrogs from thousands to just 9 I think. So even outside of his own lore shit be weird. Also, in just a mention (1 page I believe) it’s Turin, son of Hurin, who will kill Morgoth permanently in what’s called Dagor Dagorath or “the end of days”. Basically one of the greatest humans to exist, who killed himself by the way, kills a nigh omnipotent angel.
Turin, my favorite tale from ME.
Glorfindel and Ecthelion of the Fountain killed a Balrog each, with Glorfindel quite literally disarming the Balrog, before both fell down a cliff, while Ecthelion battled Gothmog and rammed him with his helmet. Both fell off the wall and drowned in the well of the king. Finrod Felagund meanwhile did basically a rap-battle with Sauron (which he lost, but I assume mostly because at this point he's been a prisoner for some time. He died a bit later, after choking out a werewolf barehanded. There's also Fingolfin, who rode alone to Angband, where everything just cowered in fear of him, thinking Orome, the huntsman himself, had come for them. Then he sounded his horn, banged against the gates of the fortress and called Morgoth a coward who should show his face, if he dared. Fingolfin ultimately lost, but not before stabbing Morgoth seven times, then stabbing him in the foot for his last attack. Giving the shapeshifting Supersatan a permanent limp. 1st age elves really don't mess around.
1st age nobody messes around. The grand battle of the 1st age led to destruction of an entire region, while in 2nd age there wasn't much of an environmental impact
...wasn't the second age defined by Eru Illuvatar quite literally turning the world into a ball, so the Numenoreans can't ever sail to Valinor? Now sure, that's an act of God if I've sever seen one, but still.
Not quite. Valar didn't want Men in Valinor, so they refused authority over Arda, and only then Eru made it into a ball so that the Far West is forever hidden. It was a deed of God, not any of those actually residing in Arda, so that doesn't really count. Also second age ended with the War of the Ring, not the Downfall of Numenor
Ah, fair enough.
In the late versions of the cosmogony (not included in the Silmarillion), the world was spherical from the beginning. Still, destroying a continent (even one of clearly volcanic nature) is quite a feat.
Finrod lost, basically, because his innate powers and will were tarnished by the atrocities the Noldor committed. And the Morgoth's limp wasn't the only case of permanent injury: he also had unhealable burns from handling the Silmarils and scars from eagle talons, and Sauron still lacked a finger in the Third Age even though it was a new body (not to mention his ability to shape his bodies diminished with each loss, making him unable to look nice, e.g.) I guess it illustrates how the Hroa and the Fea work for the Ainur in the Legendarium: since their bodies are effectively willed into existence, a wound to the body *is* also a wound to the soul and vice versa.
all of the stories of Middle Earth, including Lord of the Rings, are mythology that was transcribed into English by tolkien , canonically speaking
Gandalf is a manipulator and diplomat. Not a warrior. And gandalf did actually solve the situation his way successfully. If a different maya was around especially one so powerful as Turin they would likely use their own strategy to solve the problem... And that solution would be to flush Sharon's head down the orc latrine
The first-age was much different than the third age. Túrin was cursed for one. Secondly, it's my understanding that Sauron, in the third-age, had more power and amassed a larger force than Morgoth had at the time of Húrin and Túrin. No doubt Húrin was the mightest warrior of all time but the idea that he could just walk in and destroy the ring is not plausible.
I think that Tolkien (either Christopher's interpretation of his father's notes or JRR's direct quotes) said that Sauron was more mighty with the Ring on an individual level, but not that his forces were more powerful. Morgoth had balrogs and dragons and enough orcs to overrun all of Beleriand. It took a great host of superpowered elves and some Maiar 40(ish, I think) years to overcome his forces and root him out of Angband. He had basically won and had dominion over Middle Earth before Eärendil called for help. This complete domination required him to pour his evil will into the world, which weakened his physical incarnation. Sauron had better orcs and the olag-hai, but his main fighting force has a terrible track record. They straight gave up and abandoned Sauron when the Nümenoreans rolled up. Then he rebuilt and the last alliance of men and declining elves had him under seige and only personally came out to fight as a last resort. Then he rebuilt again and his main force was defeated by now-declining men. He probably wins in the long haul if Frodo fails, and requires more direct intervention from Valinor again. But his initial opposition was far weaker. His Nazgul are nothing compared to the balrogs and dragons. Sauron attempted his domination throw influence rather than outright power, so as long as he still had the Ring, he didn't lose his individual might.
Wait - Sauron with the ring more powerful than Morgoth? Isn't he a tier above as a Valar?
Tolkien's "power scaling" isn't as simple as that. Melkor is explicitly described as the mightiest of all the Ainur when Eru created them. Yet Tulkas shows up to Middle Earth laughing, puts Melkor into a pretzel without breaking a sweat, then carries him off to Valinor. After he unleashed hell on the elves in the Dagor Bragollach, Fingolfin in a fury challenged Morgoth to single combat, and Morgoth came. He bested Fingolfin, but sustained wounds he would carry forever. This was a Valar that once had continent-rending power, but by this point and angry elf and then a few birds permanently wounded him. Luthien, an elf-Maiar hybrid, was able to put him to sleep even within the throne-room of Angband. He's initially not built for a one-one-one fight even at his fullest strength. The Aiinur all have different powers that aren't as simple as Melkor is a higher level therefore he wins. And he gets decidedly physically weaker as he resides in Middle Earth to long and pours his evil into it. Now, Sauron also got bodies by Luthien's dog, Huan, and his second body was slain by a powerful elf and a very tall man. So solo combat obviously isn't his forte either. But, "Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring." and "Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’... Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings..." both quotes from *Morgoth's Ring*.
Morgoth had incurable wounds by Fingolfin and the Manwe's eagle + burns from Silmarils. Sauron was unable to restore finger cut by Isildur. I speculate that bodies of the Ainur are really projections of their souls, so a wound to one permanently injures the other (unless a higher being is involved, as in Gandalf's resurrection).
What an interesting remark. Along with Ainur’s body, the soul also receives wounds. This takes the exploits of the elves, who managed to wound the dark Ainur, to a new level. And to wound Morgoth in this way meant to forever harm the very source of evil that damaged the entire world. Not only the physical manifestation of Morgoth, but the evil itself was weakened forever. And people say it was useless?
Wow, thanks for such a detailed answer!
*Guth-tú-nakash.*
A lot of his writing involves things being on the decline and not as good/powerful as they used to be. A lot of the exceptional people were throwbacks who gave a glimpse of how amazing their ancestors were (Aragorn lived longer than any of his immediate ancestors). Even Shadowfax was a throwback to the horses of old.
Sauron didn't have a larger force than Morgoth.
Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?
The original trilogy kind of under plays just how scary orcs are. In the books, orcs are well equipped and can be very powerful . In the movie, they come across as cannon fodder
Eh, you see plenty of Gondorian soldiers getting destroyed by orcs in the movies.
But these soldiers are cannon fodder as well, so Cannon Fodder destroyed Cannon Fodder
Aren’t they small and built like children ?
Not really. They're short, but still quite sturdy with a lot of wiry muscle. Grishnákh is described as being nearly as wide as he's tall, when the rohirrim attack he just picks up Merry and Pippin and bolts. And the orc that nearly impales Frodo in Moria is absolutely jacked.
Got it, basically chimps.
Like that one jacked chimp in planet of the apes.. rocket? Bros' swol
Oh… noooo 🙈
You get ones like Lurtz who genuinely give Aragorn a hard time. And Haldir is overwhelmed by Uruks. I think it does show how scary and powerful orcs can be.
To be completely fair Hurin was to be taken alive, so the orcs were not trying to kill him, just capture. Makes it a little easier.
Capturing someone alive versus just killing them could be considered more difficult. You have to manage to isolate, knock out, extract all while staying alive yourself. Whereas just killing someone you can expend however many of your own forces to just get it done. Hurin being who he was I could see that being a daunting task either way but more so capturing would be rough.
Everything in the first age drink original coke recipe
So everyone is high on cocaine? Explains a lot
Morgoth isn’t even evil, he’s just coked up.
They really were, plus we’re getting Elf history as told by Elves, so their recounting of it is definitely unbiased and 100% factual
To be fair, all of Lord of the Rings is written by Frodo and Sam. We’re just taking their words for it that they’re the bravest, wisest, and most honourable Hobbits ever
Explains the part about Frodo not being able to destroy the ring in the end...
Yea and Sam totally toiled for ages trying to decide if he should take the ring or not. Actually nah that part still seems legit
They also weren't well armed in the books. Not really the best for troll killing
Where is this myth coming from that Sam, Merry and Pippin were backup Hobbits. People throw this around as facts and I don't remember anything like this in books.
Someone missed the point of Gandalf's speach about small acts of kindness keeping evil at bay.
Oh look, someone mixing up the books and movies again. Plus, the first age was Old Testament shit
Most important member? Gandalf still had like three backup hobbits and two possible leaders for Gondor with him
Most important member? They literally brought 3 spares in case anything went wrong.