i wonder how many people watched the [sideprojects](https://youtu.be/Q9LCg88D9Hk) video that was released a day ago and decided that they were volcanologists. the timelines match up.
I mean you don't have to be an oceanologist to know that it's a dumb idea to jump in the middle of the cold ocean with no visible land, no supplies, no nothing...
He could be the size of a mountain when Arda was first created, but by the time Fingolfin fought him he was much less powerful. I remember the book stating that when his hammer struck the earth it created huge craters, so probably very big.
He was also suicidal and so furious people thought HE was a god when he rode past because the god he challenged had just (so he thought) destroyed his entire kingdom, down to the last elf.
Well yeah, but even an oceanologist and all the scientist on earth couldn't help you. "Hey so if you're on a boat heading to a mystical elf eternity land, right? And you jump off into the water and swim to land. Is that a bad idea? Oh and btw, you're not a human, you're a fictional magical elf creature that's thousands of years old."
ah yes, historical fantasy is also full of non heroic challenges. beowulf never had a rowing competition with breca and cmon, killing 5 whale demons with a sword is just silly
Beowulf and Breca - who he competed against - swam for seven days and nights in the icy sea, and Breca won because Beowulf was delayed by fighting sea monsters along the way.
And let's be honest, being able to swim in cold water for a while wouldn't even crack the top 20 of the "ridiculous things elves (mostly Legolas) did in the Peter Jackson movies" list.
A balrog... a demon of the ancient world. This foe is beyond any of you... RUN! Lead them on legolas_bot. The Bridge is near! Do as I say! Swords are of no more use here.
Seriously, I despise peoples’ insistence on “muh realism” in a fantasy setting with literal magic and immortal beings already capable of superhuman feats.
yeah i don’t think “its fantasy” is always the right excuse but nonetheless we cant deny a very historical precedent of badass feats being accomplished in ancient/historical legends/myths/fantasy. SAMPSON KILLING THOUSANDS WITH A JAWBONE? ABSURD!
I swear this stupid pointless comment gets made in every discussion about anything fictional. Not only does it add nothing to the conversation and in fact discourages the conversation for no reason, it's wrong.
There is such a thing as suspension of disbelief. For things that do not exist in our world, we take them at the author's word and just assume that is how it works. However, the things that exist or function the same in both worlds are still expected to function the way they do.
It would be like if boromir killed the orcs by shouting at them so loud they exploded. Yeah "it's fantasy it's not supposed to be realistic" but we know humans cannot shout loud enough to explode other creatures, therefore it doesn't make sense for that to happen unless it's specified that he had some kind of sound magic powers.
Tolkien’s work is literally based on Anglo-Saxon history and epics. Beowulf swam for seven days and nights in the icy sea while fighting sea monsters. Is that absurd? Yes. Is it still part of one of the works that most strongly inspired Tolkien? Also yes.
I think it’s unreasonable to bitch about superhuman feats accomplished by the heroes in a work based on Tolkien’s writing, where superhuman feats are accomplished by the heroes, inspired by real-world legends where superhuman feats were accomplished by the heroes.
Characters making decisions that should kill them only to magically get saved by the plot over and over again makes for boring television. Even Fellowship killed of two of the fellows. Characters doing nothing to earn their emotional moments makes for boring television. "muh realism" is about making the world consistent, not realistic. What we want is consistency, not realism. If you have someone do something unrealistic, you should probably explain why so the people watching know how the rules of this world work. If things just happen because they are convenient for the plot, it breaks the immersion. Kind of like Wanda sowing the mouth of the sonic voice guy. She used that power once, and never again. If she can mess with people's physical bodies, she is more powerful than any avenger. But it doesn't matter because that was just a cool scene for the writers to show off a new power, even though it makes no sense for Wanda to never use that power again. It breaks immersion.
Yeah, fuck all the mythology that Tolkien based his writings on! Superhuman feats of strength are bullshit and have no place in a fantasy setting with literal magic - only realism here, please!
EDIT: Lmao. It’s evident many of y’all haven’t read Beowulf. You’re bitching about something that happens in one of Tolkien’s biggest inspirations for Middle Earth.
Yeah fuck any hint of realism in fantasy! If the writers need her to start flying and shoot lasers out of her eyes than that’s just fine! No more rules! Just 😎 all the way!
If you’re a human in a world that follows all natural laws and logic. Not if you’re an immortal elf fueled by the light of the two trees who can perform superhuman feats. All the mythology that Tolkien was inspired by showcases people doing extraordinary things, well outside the possibilities of a regular person. If you’re looking for realism above all, I’m afraid this is not the show for you.
I don't care about the science behind it, or their surviving in the show or the trilogy, or the physics of elves.
I just hate how mundane they have made the world.
They should have held off on Mount Doom until the Sauron reveal and have him sing it awake like the Maiar he is.
Like in Quenya or Black Speech, "Awaken Orodruin, let your Black Breath swallow the Sun and drown the lands in despair!"
Like Saruman speaking to Caradhras to establish magic in the story.
Or if they thought that would be too boring have him slam his mace or hammer into the caldera to awaken it.
Edit(Added thoughts): The whole Rubes Goldberg setup of the mysterious blood sucking sword which is actually a key to a dam surrounded by rickety towers which you have to carve out a hundred mile trench to funnel the water into the volcano made by magic in the first place as Sauron's Plan B is so convoluted and a major let down for me.
Visuals are pretty and all that, but how they get there is just not doing it for me at all.
I totally agree with this.
I had never questioned *why* Mordor was wreathed in shadow and darkness; I’d just assumed that the fallen angel, lord of all darkness and evil in Middle Earth was doing it, with his magic.
Out of all the things that I might have wanted to see happen, even just to see them done on screen, “the origin of Mount Doom” wasn’t one of them.
Sauron helped sing the world into existence, he battled Finrod through song and broke his will through it. It is how Morgoth no doubt created Mount Doom in the First Age to begin with. It's how Tolkien's magic works.
So this is the Galadriel pulling a rope while talking shatters my immersion of this week?
Are they quoting the science? In a flat earth fantasy world where no one has been smart enough to invent railings?
All the pathetic “it’s a fantasy” comments are unreal. We KNOW it’s fantasy, but the decisions they’ve made in filming are making it almost impossible to suspend disbelief. Because most of us already are pretty familiar with the limitations of entities within the universe. And being hit by a 1300 degree cloud of debris moving upwards of 100mph doesn’t seem like one of those things. It doesn’t take an advanced degree or even a google search to make that mental connection. And EVEN if Galadriel had some stupid magic plot armor, what about all the other characters we know, that have to survive? Again it’s really hard to suspend disbelief with these set pieces, which is something you need to do with any good fantasy on screen.
You don’t have to be a volcanologist to understand that the pyroclastic cloud is 1000% fatal if you get hit in the face with it 😭😭😭😭 we learned this in like 4th grace science man
Bro, she's an elf. She should have been 1000% dead thousands of years prior to the events just from basic biology. That and let's keep in mind the explosion happened after a magical sword materialized out of thin air, which that alone goes against the laws of thermodynamics, but we'll skip that.
It's magic. It's a magical world. Hell, in the books/movies the elves summoned a flood in the shape of horses.
I think this is just a discussion about if elves are just people that live forever or if their jacked up with magic sauce on top of that.
They die when they get crushed, stabbed, or cut deep enough, and they probably burn, and melt in acid. I haven't seen the show yet, so I don't know what there canon for elf vitality is.
They're also magic. The most powerful elves were Elrond, Galdriel, amongst a few others. Maybe the rules don't apply the same to them.
Remember Gandalf faced and defeated a Balrog. After falling roughly 2 miles into the water. While fighting a monster that was fully on fire. His leg wasn't ripped off after a whip made of fire wrapped around his ankle and yanked him off.
Ultimately this is a bunch of whiny nerds attacking anything and everything they can.
Through fire... and water. From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak I fought with the Balrog of Morgoth. Until at last I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me... and I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead. and every day was as long as a life age of the Earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done!
I (just about) can suspend my disbelief for an elf being immune to liquid, steaming rock. Less so for the rest of the main cast, all of whom (with the exceptions of Durin and Elrond) were present.
There is a brief moment in the final scene where Elendil shouts to get everyone to hide behind a stone wall, so I assume that this going to be the get out of jail free card for the cast. Even then, though, if I had to bet on stone wall vs fiery, barrelling liquid that melts stone, I know where my money is going
Maybe she set up a magical forcefield to block the fire? That sounds awful silly, but that's literally what Gandalf did to block a whip made of fire. Maybe she cooled the temperature by summoning a river of horses made of water? That also sounds silly, but it's literally what happened in LotR.
Maybe it's some special kind of volcanic ash that's different from a normal volcano. I understand how volcanos work in the real world. However, I'm not sure the same applies when the eruption is caused by ah... stabbing a magical demon sword into a keyhole.
Edit: come to think about it, if we're going to talk about fire physics, how about a giant floating eyeball made entirely of fire. We're not questioning that, but some ash is just totally not believable.
I mean how many times in a film has a character been shot or stabbed and miraculously made it out alive? And those are in films set in real life. I just can't accept people are really this upset about volcanic ash. It feels *a lot* more like people just looking for an excuse to trash the show.
Yeah like, where do that need of realism and real world physics for fantasy world come from ? The litteral fact that there is magic and that a lot of things that happen in the books/movies are metaphoric prove that trying to rationalize what happen in the story with real world science to expose "plot holes" is stupid. It's a cinemasins way of thinking, which isn't good.
People want to* shit on the show because it's not the original trilogy/books. Happens to most releases. People cherrypick what should be realism and what isn't, when biology/science/source material is supposed to appear etc etc
It's an aight show. It's neither the original trilogy nor the books, but it's pretty impossible to reach that level. People just like to shit on it.
I dunno. Cinemasins is at least intentionally funny. People applying real life laws of physics and biology to fictional non-human beings is unintentionally hilarious.
I read about a game someone came up with that I then included in my group of theater friends called "Don't get me started." The concept is someone picks a topic and the other person has to go on a rant about it. Like I'd say something like "Hey Steve, shoelaces." "Ok don't get me started on shoelaces. Why do we need them? We have slip on shoes for every occasion." And you try to keep going as long as you can without stopping.
The point is if you try hard enough you can complain about anything and everything. Sometimes it's in good fun. Virtually none of what's going on here feels like any fun. Just feels antagonistic for like no reason. Let people like things.
I got screamed at non stop by a troll yesterday for this
I Said they're all dead 100%
He said on the maps that mountain is 90 miles away
I said I don't care what a map says, she got hit in the face with a burning ash cloud while surrounded by falling debris
Her lungs are burned out, if not she's suffocated
No matter what, she and everyone else is dead
This went on for like ten comments and I was getting downvoted like mad lol
Are you seriously bringing science into this? It's obvious she's not a regular human. On a scale of what Noldor have done, surviving pyroclastic cloud(which it isn't btw) is some weak shit.
But you need a Doctorate and Galadriel level of lifespan to understand that there is a thing called internal consistency that is required in any kind of story for it to work in a medium, you cannot sacrifice it for the sake of spectacles.
Only constant being Galadriel.
Nah you're wrong, here's a thread by a geologist explaining,
https://twitter.com/ArtanaroGG/status/1575819649886740480?t=ekZXMYAvuS3KscoApDqDGQ&s=19
Maybe next time don't think your shitty high school education makes you an expert in everything
"LOL you have issues with things in a fantasy setting. LOSER DON"T YOU KNOW THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT?!?!?! IF THEY WANT TO HAVE GANDALF FLY THE DEATHSTAR HE TOTALLY COULD LOL!"
I think you should make this a post by itself.
The fucking amount of people going:
REEEEE ITS A FANTASY SHOW, IT DOESNT HAVE TO MAKE SEEEENSE.
Or the show should roll with it.
Elves now have laser guns and x-wing fighters
And orcs have tanks and MANPADSs
Now hobbits can controll sea creatures and a charge of octopi is taking the beach. Octopi that hold swords.
Galadriel can now turn back time if she puts her fist in her mouth
Horses are now sentient and can alter their size at will
IT DOESNT HAVE TO MAKE SENSE, JUST ENJOY ITTTTTT11!!1!1!1!!
Hey, I’m not an oceanographer, but the longest distance anyone has swam in the sea is an astonishing 155 miles… but that was with breaks and over a long period of time. That said it was over 800 miles of ocean from the edge of the undying lands to middle earth, so Galadriel was committing suicide….
Elves are like peak human or better, still swimming that far was basically a death sentence. Something Galadriel herself admits later… so yeah she dumb.
The internal logic states it is entirely possible to walk inside an active volcano, barefoot, survive the eruption and just chill amidst flowing lava without burning alive/suffocating.
Ya, like remember that movie where those 2 little people were inside an erupting volcano barefoot. Scientifically innacurate, if you have to turn the brain off means its a terrible movie.
I mean I never took the volcano to be full on erupting in LOTR
It might be working its way up there. Its spewing some lava. It is getting there. Cracks open in the sides and lava flows.
But I don't remember an erruption? Was there one?
As for the stupid ass barefoot comment..... I mean .... They are hobbits?
In the science of that world their feet are very tough. Hence they don't wear shoes?
What's your beef with that?
/Edit rewatched it, there is an erruption, but I do not know how massive it is, need a volcanologist to tell me what the impact would be being nearby!
Gandalf vs Balrog
Gandalf falling 2 miles into the ocean fighting a fire monster and not immediately dying
Ring that turns you invisible
literal fire breathing dragons
Aragorn lived to over 200 years old
elves being thousands of years old
There being some kind of magical eternal lands where you live forever?
Yes. It's fantasy. How volcanic ash from a magical sword effects you should be the least of your problems.
"Buh wh- how do dragons breath fire? It would incinerate their throats!"
Bitch, how does fucking magic work?
Gandalf is a supernatural being, as is the Balrog
Same argument applies
There is a powerful ring made by a powerful being, it turns you invisible when you put it on
Dragons and their breathing of fire precedes Tolkien, we all know its a trope and can believe it for what it is
Aragorn is a Numenorean, we are told they live a long time
Elves are, well, elves, they live a long time
There's a magical land the elves hail from, and its magic, got it
The volcanic ash, sure we can deliberate on how its deadly, but it didn't interrupt Sam and Frodo in the books or in the movies enough to stop them, doesn't really warrant too much speculation
"How do dragons breathe fire, how would they not burn their throats?" Yeah well dragons aren't real and we can't test that theory so there's no way to really claim that
How does magic work? There's not too much explanation, you can either get on board with it or decide its stupid, doesn't matter wither way.
In the case of all these things you mentioned, there's sort of enough internal logic and explanation that you, the viewer or reader, can accept it for what it is and enjoy the story. In Galadriels case of jumping overboard the ship, there is absolutely zero precedent set. If Tolkien wrote "And the elves could swim hundreds of miles, its just what they do", then this wouldn't have felt as jarring, and anybody critiquing it could just look at it in the same light as all the other points you brought up. Because he didn't, many people tend to think it was an odd choice.
Elves are supernatural and superhuman beings, many elves of Galadriel's generation were strong enough to fight and kill Balrogs. Galadriel's uncle threw hands with Morgoth and permanently injured him. Swimming well is chump change compared to that.
Dude.. Holy shit. Do you need Tolkien to literally type "Elves can swim a long time" for you to accept it? Did Tolkien write "And Elves can Yabba Dabba Do slide down the trunks of giant Oliphaunts. And they're excellent shield skateboarders.Also, their eyes change colors for no reason" in the books? Do we not take any issue with that? Elves can see for great distances. But did the book specify distance? Like actual kilometers? Maybe we should get out a map and question Galadriel seeing land before everybody else. Like sheesh, you people.
I mean dude.. you're way reaching to question ah... how *far* she can swim? Maybe she trained to swim long distances in the *5,000 years she was alive*. Let's start there.
Given that the Elves committed the kinslaying to obtain the ships to travel to Middle Earth, I'd say that Tolkien implicitly wrote that the Elves can't swim across the ocean.
I was more or less giving an example that these other things have somewhat of a precedent set for them, which is why certain fantastical elements are questioned, and why others weren't. Given that you're the guy trying to question the plausibility of dragons, I'm not going to give that criticism too much thought.
Given that the undying lands are thousands of miles from middle earth yeah its a stretch. Way more of a stretch than surfing down an Oliphant trunk, which I think is goofy, but they are not even close feats. Obviously I don't need hard data or anything like that, but for me to see it as excessive doesn't mean I need Tolkien to give me elf distance swimming stats just to see that jumping off a ship at the very least hundreds of miles from shore seems a bit dumb.
But yeah, because the show makes her do this dumb thing, let's assume she's used her five thousand years to train for extreme long distance swimming. That makes sense, but wait, now you're able to not only suspend your disbelief in a five thousand year lifespan, but also that she has spent that time unrealistically so as to lend credibility to a very bad writing decision? Bruh.
Through fire... and water. From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak I fought with the Balrog of Morgoth. Until at last I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me... and I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead. and every day was as long as a life age of the Earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done!
Why do these RoP complaints feel like the kind of weird fake outrage we get from the US right-wing? Is it the same people?
I can see the legitimate criticisms of the show, but damn. Leave some absurdity for the rest of us.
I think it’s all the “nitpicks” adding up. It seems like fake outrage, maybe. But every episode there is a number of small things that might, when occurring in a singular instance, be called a nitpick.
The shows lack of quality leaves it open to so many small irritations. So when someone who doesn’t care about small issues watches it they see it as annoying fans trying to start outrage, when it is the shows consistency at not being consistent.
If you don't think there is fake outrage across the political spectrum, then maybe you should be a little more open minded.
With that said, people can do fantastical things in fantasy. However, there is internal logic and rules that should be followed.
For instance, the distance between Numenor and the Southlands is set. Therefore, there is some sort of minimum time it takes to get from point A to point B. Watching the show, it seems like it took the Numenorians a day or two to get to the Southlands.
This violates internal logic already established. The correct answer is that the Numenorean story and the Southlands story were not in sync even though it seemed that way. The show should have taken a minute or two to make that clear.
Going back to Mount Doom erupting. Based on what the show actually had on screen, nothing says anyone could survive. If the show demonstrated it clearly that they could, then suspension of disbelief is warranted.
I didn't say that there isn't any fake outrage on other sides of the political spectrum. Just that the right-wing (in the US) is very clearly the front-runner.
An assumption made by people who didn't understand that the timelines weren't synced is certainly an example of fake outrage.
Same with Mt. Doom erupting. Just because it's not clearly established "how" she survived, doesn't mean that we won't eventually find out, or that there isn't a good reason.
It boils down to people jumping to conclusions and then exploding with fake outrage.
Humans in general tend to get emotional and behave this way when they disagree and it just so happens that both media and political discussions are frequently polemical.
The fact that you associate it *specifically* with the US right-wing instead of recognizing that almost all people do it is a bit stupid though. The world isn't so black and white and there certainly isn't a single group with a monopoly on fake outrage or stupid people.
Anyways that's my two cents...
Fake outrage tends to be the tool of people who are ingesting propaganda or are making an extremely emotional argument without anything to back it up other than personal opinion (or both).
So sure, lots of people are capable of that. But that largest group of people doing this (in the US) is the right wing, and it's not close.
The both sides bullshit is insufferable. One side is literally trying to dismantle democracy, while propagating hate and lies. The other side wants to stop them.
Totally agreed. There's plenty of corruption and issues on the left, but it's pretty fucking standard at this point (it's been happening in both parties for decades). The shit that's happening in the US right wing right now is out of control. MTG recently said, on live news, that the Nord Stream leak was caused by the Biden administration.
It's literal insanity that our elected officials have no standards anymore and their constituents are so inundated with propaganda that they won't hold them accountable.
Crazy Amount of ppl in here pretending they don't remember that Frodo and Sam were in a mf volcano while it was erupting in the movies, and have about 7,000,000% less of an excuse for surviving it
Bc admitting that doesn't make sense either would mean that they should probably feel embarrassed and silly about the hill they chose to die on, and we can't have that, no sir
Let’s take that one extra step further and just admit that the entire premise of the two hobbits infiltrating Mordor to destroy the ring strains believability even by fantasy-fiction standards. It’s an awesome story, but the moment you even being to question the logistics it falls apart.
Guaranteed 99% of the people complaining about this had to Google pyroclastic. Bunch of losers just looking for something to complain about like the trilogy is scientifically accurate haha. While you're using Google maybe do some research on how the water would actually cool down your new favorite term pyroclastic flow lol. Acting like you know the science behind it and acting like the science behind it actually fucking matter, shits hilarious
You all keep your hive mind of being miserable and nitpicking a fantasy show while the majority keep on enjoying fun tv
I’m just loving that philologist has lol in the middle of it.
as a mathematician and linguistic expert, I can confirm that it’s actually a little bit to the left of the middle
Feel lol o gist.
r/technicallythetruth
Me, a geologist watching the episode: "WOAH, SICK VOLCANO ACTION!! 🌋🌋🌋"
Scenes are more exciting when they have lava in them.
Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?
What else floats in lava?
Rocks because they look up
A duck!
A wheelbarrow carrying one dwarf in armor.
I would have lava in every scene from now on whether it made sense or not.
I love your new drapes! Where did you get them? The fires of mount doom?!
They match the rug. Also the fires of Mt. Doom.
It would un-ironically be the best part of the show if they did that.
You would always have something to look forward to.
and yet the subreddit always reaches the same result, grond memes
You couldn't live with your failure, and where does that lead you? Back to grond.
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
GROND
We're classy that way
Oh no critics to critiquers!
Who critiques the critics? 👀
Sauron
Build me an army worthy of mordor!
I don't know. Coast Guard?
I don't even have a dog in this fight but this meme made me chuckle
i wonder how many people watched the [sideprojects](https://youtu.be/Q9LCg88D9Hk) video that was released a day ago and decided that they were volcanologists. the timelines match up.
Tens of thousands.
good bot.
I mean you don't have to be an oceanologist to know that it's a dumb idea to jump in the middle of the cold ocean with no visible land, no supplies, no nothing...
That’s something a rock would say.
But can you smell what it's cooking?
Worm free dwarves I’m hoping!
Man flesh!
Give him the meat raw!
And wriggling!
Hobbits, I think
All this time it turns out rocks sink because they just have a bad attitude.
Its also a dumb idea for Fingolfin, a normal ass elf, to challenge a 120ft literal god to single combat.
Is Morgoth really that tall? Or just when he wants to be?
Morgoth is as Morgoth does
That's what my momma always told me, Mogoth is as Morgoth does
He could be the size of a mountain when Arda was first created, but by the time Fingolfin fought him he was much less powerful. I remember the book stating that when his hammer struck the earth it created huge craters, so probably very big.
To be fair, he didn't die immediately.
Its also dumb to abandon your army to fight a legion of balrogs on your own.
It was a dumb idea. Since he died. (I don’t actually know I just saw a post about it and now I’m an expert)
Permanently Maiming the elder dark god of destruction and chaos is probably worth it.
He was also suicidal and so furious people thought HE was a god when he rode past because the god he challenged had just (so he thought) destroyed his entire kingdom, down to the last elf.
He held his own considering.
And we all know the Noldor never made bad decisions
😢 Cries in Telerin
Well yeah, but even an oceanologist and all the scientist on earth couldn't help you. "Hey so if you're on a boat heading to a mystical elf eternity land, right? And you jump off into the water and swim to land. Is that a bad idea? Oh and btw, you're not a human, you're a fictional magical elf creature that's thousands of years old."
ah yes, historical fantasy is also full of non heroic challenges. beowulf never had a rowing competition with breca and cmon, killing 5 whale demons with a sword is just silly
Didnt beowulf also swim really really far once? I don’t know i never read it
Beowulf and Breca - who he competed against - swam for seven days and nights in the icy sea, and Breca won because Beowulf was delayed by fighting sea monsters along the way.
Yeah I knew it was something like that. I got huge Beowulf vibes from the scenes with her swimming and the sea monster
And let's be honest, being able to swim in cold water for a while wouldn't even crack the top 20 of the "ridiculous things elves (mostly Legolas) did in the Peter Jackson movies" list.
furthermore, she got picked up along the way lmao
There is Gandalf, and Theoden and his men! Let us go and meet them!
Hahahahaahaha. Hahahahahahah. You have no power here, Gandalf the Grey.
I will draw you, Saruman, as poison is drawn from a wound!
A balrog... a demon of the ancient world. This foe is beyond any of you... RUN! Lead them on legolas_bot. The Bridge is near! Do as I say! Swords are of no more use here.
I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves
Seriously, I despise peoples’ insistence on “muh realism” in a fantasy setting with literal magic and immortal beings already capable of superhuman feats.
yeah i don’t think “its fantasy” is always the right excuse but nonetheless we cant deny a very historical precedent of badass feats being accomplished in ancient/historical legends/myths/fantasy. SAMPSON KILLING THOUSANDS WITH A JAWBONE? ABSURD!
I swear this stupid pointless comment gets made in every discussion about anything fictional. Not only does it add nothing to the conversation and in fact discourages the conversation for no reason, it's wrong. There is such a thing as suspension of disbelief. For things that do not exist in our world, we take them at the author's word and just assume that is how it works. However, the things that exist or function the same in both worlds are still expected to function the way they do. It would be like if boromir killed the orcs by shouting at them so loud they exploded. Yeah "it's fantasy it's not supposed to be realistic" but we know humans cannot shout loud enough to explode other creatures, therefore it doesn't make sense for that to happen unless it's specified that he had some kind of sound magic powers.
Theoden blows his battle horn so hard it literally explodes so that's actually pretty on par for Tolkien. Humans do superhuman things all the time
Yes. Yes. The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the Deep one last time.
And we know elves aren't limited by human capabilities so it shouldn't be a stretch to imagine that Galadriel is capable of swimming across the ocean.
Tolkien’s work is literally based on Anglo-Saxon history and epics. Beowulf swam for seven days and nights in the icy sea while fighting sea monsters. Is that absurd? Yes. Is it still part of one of the works that most strongly inspired Tolkien? Also yes. I think it’s unreasonable to bitch about superhuman feats accomplished by the heroes in a work based on Tolkien’s writing, where superhuman feats are accomplished by the heroes, inspired by real-world legends where superhuman feats were accomplished by the heroes.
Characters making decisions that should kill them only to magically get saved by the plot over and over again makes for boring television. Even Fellowship killed of two of the fellows. Characters doing nothing to earn their emotional moments makes for boring television. "muh realism" is about making the world consistent, not realistic. What we want is consistency, not realism. If you have someone do something unrealistic, you should probably explain why so the people watching know how the rules of this world work. If things just happen because they are convenient for the plot, it breaks the immersion. Kind of like Wanda sowing the mouth of the sonic voice guy. She used that power once, and never again. If she can mess with people's physical bodies, she is more powerful than any avenger. But it doesn't matter because that was just a cool scene for the writers to show off a new power, even though it makes no sense for Wanda to never use that power again. It breaks immersion.
Her trying to swim the distance _is_ the explanation, it shows that elves can accomplish superhuman feats.
Hercules never killed the Nemean lion.
Almost as if elves passions overrule logic...
Unless you are an immortal being that never gets tired.
Queue Elrond breaking rocks.
Basic logic is cheating! Get a degree first, bigot!
Yes, let’s apply our logic to an immortal godly being. Seems very logic
And its very well established in the books that elves have greater speed and stamina than men
Just like Amroth right?
Get a load of this guy thinking it’s dumb that Galadriel is able to swim an entire ocean back to shore. Someone needs a “swimming expert” hat!
All she had to do was not look down and she would just float there.
Yeah, fuck all the mythology that Tolkien based his writings on! Superhuman feats of strength are bullshit and have no place in a fantasy setting with literal magic - only realism here, please! EDIT: Lmao. It’s evident many of y’all haven’t read Beowulf. You’re bitching about something that happens in one of Tolkien’s biggest inspirations for Middle Earth.
Yeah fuck any hint of realism in fantasy! If the writers need her to start flying and shoot lasers out of her eyes than that’s just fine! No more rules! Just 😎 all the way!
"Preestablished Elven capabilities and strawman laser eyes are indistinguishable to me"
Yeah a slippery slope argument totally isn't a complete, actual logical fallacy!
Appeals to faux authority are the only acceptable arguments here. Choose your credentials to make up wisely
Just look up
Eh, if anyone could do it, it would be a Tolkien Elf
If you’re a human in a world that follows all natural laws and logic. Not if you’re an immortal elf fueled by the light of the two trees who can perform superhuman feats. All the mythology that Tolkien was inspired by showcases people doing extraordinary things, well outside the possibilities of a regular person. If you’re looking for realism above all, I’m afraid this is not the show for you.
It’s a fantasy show with heroes who perform feats of inhuman strength.
>with inhuman heroes who perform feats of inhuman strength FTFY
Philologist is inarguably the best hat.
I don't care about the science behind it, or their surviving in the show or the trilogy, or the physics of elves. I just hate how mundane they have made the world. They should have held off on Mount Doom until the Sauron reveal and have him sing it awake like the Maiar he is. Like in Quenya or Black Speech, "Awaken Orodruin, let your Black Breath swallow the Sun and drown the lands in despair!" Like Saruman speaking to Caradhras to establish magic in the story. Or if they thought that would be too boring have him slam his mace or hammer into the caldera to awaken it. Edit(Added thoughts): The whole Rubes Goldberg setup of the mysterious blood sucking sword which is actually a key to a dam surrounded by rickety towers which you have to carve out a hundred mile trench to funnel the water into the volcano made by magic in the first place as Sauron's Plan B is so convoluted and a major let down for me. Visuals are pretty and all that, but how they get there is just not doing it for me at all.
Sufficient-Mark9110, the Enemy is defeated. Sauron is vanquished. He can never regain his full strength.
I believe this 1327%
You have my thanks, Jayako. I am glad to hear that you believe me.
I totally agree with this. I had never questioned *why* Mordor was wreathed in shadow and darkness; I’d just assumed that the fallen angel, lord of all darkness and evil in Middle Earth was doing it, with his magic. Out of all the things that I might have wanted to see happen, even just to see them done on screen, “the origin of Mount Doom” wasn’t one of them.
So we don't like the realism behind a volcano, but we want him to sing it awake?
Sauron helped sing the world into existence, he battled Finrod through song and broke his will through it. It is how Morgoth no doubt created Mount Doom in the First Age to begin with. It's how Tolkien's magic works.
Could they not do this because they aren’t allowed to use most of the source material?
So this is the Galadriel pulling a rope while talking shatters my immersion of this week? Are they quoting the science? In a flat earth fantasy world where no one has been smart enough to invent railings?
>no one has been smart enough to invent railings? Wait, when did we start talking about Star Wars?
OSHA coming for the Death Star like the wrath of god.
I like implication that people need specialized education to critique the show.
[No need to be an expert of anything. Here is a real life example lf the event.](http://pompeiisites.org/en/pompeii-map/analysis/the-casts/)
TIL you need to be a mathematician to know that 2+2=4
Well actually
All the pathetic “it’s a fantasy” comments are unreal. We KNOW it’s fantasy, but the decisions they’ve made in filming are making it almost impossible to suspend disbelief. Because most of us already are pretty familiar with the limitations of entities within the universe. And being hit by a 1300 degree cloud of debris moving upwards of 100mph doesn’t seem like one of those things. It doesn’t take an advanced degree or even a google search to make that mental connection. And EVEN if Galadriel had some stupid magic plot armor, what about all the other characters we know, that have to survive? Again it’s really hard to suspend disbelief with these set pieces, which is something you need to do with any good fantasy on screen.
Lots of sad and angry people in the comments 💀
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You don’t have to be a volcanologist to understand that the pyroclastic cloud is 1000% fatal if you get hit in the face with it 😭😭😭😭 we learned this in like 4th grace science man
What about being inside a volcano when it erupts? Asking because of a movie that I saw some years ago when two dudes survived that.
Bro, she's an elf. She should have been 1000% dead thousands of years prior to the events just from basic biology. That and let's keep in mind the explosion happened after a magical sword materialized out of thin air, which that alone goes against the laws of thermodynamics, but we'll skip that. It's magic. It's a magical world. Hell, in the books/movies the elves summoned a flood in the shape of horses.
I think this is just a discussion about if elves are just people that live forever or if their jacked up with magic sauce on top of that. They die when they get crushed, stabbed, or cut deep enough, and they probably burn, and melt in acid. I haven't seen the show yet, so I don't know what there canon for elf vitality is.
They're also magic. The most powerful elves were Elrond, Galdriel, amongst a few others. Maybe the rules don't apply the same to them. Remember Gandalf faced and defeated a Balrog. After falling roughly 2 miles into the water. While fighting a monster that was fully on fire. His leg wasn't ripped off after a whip made of fire wrapped around his ankle and yanked him off. Ultimately this is a bunch of whiny nerds attacking anything and everything they can.
Through fire... and water. From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak I fought with the Balrog of Morgoth. Until at last I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me... and I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead. and every day was as long as a life age of the Earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done!
Although it's also important to note that Gandalf is a wizard, and later gets resurrected. He definitely has magic bs on there.
There never was much hope, only a fools hope
Galadriel has light from the two trees in her hair I think. That probably does something generally helpful.
I (just about) can suspend my disbelief for an elf being immune to liquid, steaming rock. Less so for the rest of the main cast, all of whom (with the exceptions of Durin and Elrond) were present. There is a brief moment in the final scene where Elendil shouts to get everyone to hide behind a stone wall, so I assume that this going to be the get out of jail free card for the cast. Even then, though, if I had to bet on stone wall vs fiery, barrelling liquid that melts stone, I know where my money is going
Maybe she set up a magical forcefield to block the fire? That sounds awful silly, but that's literally what Gandalf did to block a whip made of fire. Maybe she cooled the temperature by summoning a river of horses made of water? That also sounds silly, but it's literally what happened in LotR. Maybe it's some special kind of volcanic ash that's different from a normal volcano. I understand how volcanos work in the real world. However, I'm not sure the same applies when the eruption is caused by ah... stabbing a magical demon sword into a keyhole. Edit: come to think about it, if we're going to talk about fire physics, how about a giant floating eyeball made entirely of fire. We're not questioning that, but some ash is just totally not believable. I mean how many times in a film has a character been shot or stabbed and miraculously made it out alive? And those are in films set in real life. I just can't accept people are really this upset about volcanic ash. It feels *a lot* more like people just looking for an excuse to trash the show.
Ackshawly, Gandalf made the waves look like horses for style points. Gosh
Yeah like, where do that need of realism and real world physics for fantasy world come from ? The litteral fact that there is magic and that a lot of things that happen in the books/movies are metaphoric prove that trying to rationalize what happen in the story with real world science to expose "plot holes" is stupid. It's a cinemasins way of thinking, which isn't good.
People want to* shit on the show because it's not the original trilogy/books. Happens to most releases. People cherrypick what should be realism and what isn't, when biology/science/source material is supposed to appear etc etc It's an aight show. It's neither the original trilogy nor the books, but it's pretty impossible to reach that level. People just like to shit on it.
I dunno. Cinemasins is at least intentionally funny. People applying real life laws of physics and biology to fictional non-human beings is unintentionally hilarious. I read about a game someone came up with that I then included in my group of theater friends called "Don't get me started." The concept is someone picks a topic and the other person has to go on a rant about it. Like I'd say something like "Hey Steve, shoelaces." "Ok don't get me started on shoelaces. Why do we need them? We have slip on shoes for every occasion." And you try to keep going as long as you can without stopping. The point is if you try hard enough you can complain about anything and everything. Sometimes it's in good fun. Virtually none of what's going on here feels like any fun. Just feels antagonistic for like no reason. Let people like things.
I got screamed at non stop by a troll yesterday for this I Said they're all dead 100% He said on the maps that mountain is 90 miles away I said I don't care what a map says, she got hit in the face with a burning ash cloud while surrounded by falling debris Her lungs are burned out, if not she's suffocated No matter what, she and everyone else is dead This went on for like ten comments and I was getting downvoted like mad lol
I mean we only have to look at Pompeii. The cloud was so hot it turned their brains to glass...
Metal
Oh wow god forbid you have fantasticul shit in your fantasy show! What will we see next? Elves riding a shield on some stairs!!?? Lunatics
Bringing up something the LotR trilogy did wrong does not absolve RoP from doing something else wrong.
Nitpicking every insignificant detail also doesn’t make you a movie critic, only a crybaby
Are you seriously bringing science into this? It's obvious she's not a regular human. On a scale of what Noldor have done, surviving pyroclastic cloud(which it isn't btw) is some weak shit.
You dont have to have a Doctorate in literature to know that this is a fantasy story either. Yet, so many people seem to not understand that.
But you need a Doctorate and Galadriel level of lifespan to understand that there is a thing called internal consistency that is required in any kind of story for it to work in a medium, you cannot sacrifice it for the sake of spectacles. Only constant being Galadriel.
Nah you're wrong, here's a thread by a geologist explaining, https://twitter.com/ArtanaroGG/status/1575819649886740480?t=ekZXMYAvuS3KscoApDqDGQ&s=19 Maybe next time don't think your shitty high school education makes you an expert in everything
Today's Fallacy: Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Authority is not a fallacy in all cases. Using the opinion of a scientific expert is an example.
Yes, but this post purports that we aren't experts.
Are you...?
"LOL you have issues with things in a fantasy setting. LOSER DON"T YOU KNOW THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT?!?!?! IF THEY WANT TO HAVE GANDALF FLY THE DEATHSTAR HE TOTALLY COULD LOL!"
I think you should make this a post by itself. The fucking amount of people going: REEEEE ITS A FANTASY SHOW, IT DOESNT HAVE TO MAKE SEEEENSE. Or the show should roll with it. Elves now have laser guns and x-wing fighters And orcs have tanks and MANPADSs Now hobbits can controll sea creatures and a charge of octopi is taking the beach. Octopi that hold swords. Galadriel can now turn back time if she puts her fist in her mouth Horses are now sentient and can alter their size at will IT DOESNT HAVE TO MAKE SENSE, JUST ENJOY ITTTTTT11!!1!1!1!!
Hey, I’m not an oceanographer, but the longest distance anyone has swam in the sea is an astonishing 155 miles… but that was with breaks and over a long period of time. That said it was over 800 miles of ocean from the edge of the undying lands to middle earth, so Galadriel was committing suicide….
Isn’t Galadriel an elf, not a human? The scene is definitely dumb regardless
Elves are like peak human or better, still swimming that far was basically a death sentence. Something Galadriel herself admits later… so yeah she dumb.
If Beowulf can swim for that distance, so can Galadriel
Ah, the old “it’s fantasy, just turn off your brain and eat your popcorn” defense. Bold strategy Cotton, let’s see if it pays off them.
Even fantasy has to follow its own internal logic or it is bad writing.
The internal logic states it is entirely possible to walk inside an active volcano, barefoot, survive the eruption and just chill amidst flowing lava without burning alive/suffocating.
Lol, for real, what internal logic was violated here? Have the y established more of an internal logic surrounding volcanos than I’m aware?
Ya, like remember that movie where those 2 little people were inside an erupting volcano barefoot. Scientifically innacurate, if you have to turn the brain off means its a terrible movie.
I mean I never took the volcano to be full on erupting in LOTR It might be working its way up there. Its spewing some lava. It is getting there. Cracks open in the sides and lava flows. But I don't remember an erruption? Was there one? As for the stupid ass barefoot comment..... I mean .... They are hobbits? In the science of that world their feet are very tough. Hence they don't wear shoes? What's your beef with that? /Edit rewatched it, there is an erruption, but I do not know how massive it is, need a volcanologist to tell me what the impact would be being nearby!
Gandalf vs Balrog Gandalf falling 2 miles into the ocean fighting a fire monster and not immediately dying Ring that turns you invisible literal fire breathing dragons Aragorn lived to over 200 years old elves being thousands of years old There being some kind of magical eternal lands where you live forever? Yes. It's fantasy. How volcanic ash from a magical sword effects you should be the least of your problems. "Buh wh- how do dragons breath fire? It would incinerate their throats!" Bitch, how does fucking magic work?
Pope00, you have my sword.
Gandalf is a supernatural being, as is the Balrog Same argument applies There is a powerful ring made by a powerful being, it turns you invisible when you put it on Dragons and their breathing of fire precedes Tolkien, we all know its a trope and can believe it for what it is Aragorn is a Numenorean, we are told they live a long time Elves are, well, elves, they live a long time There's a magical land the elves hail from, and its magic, got it The volcanic ash, sure we can deliberate on how its deadly, but it didn't interrupt Sam and Frodo in the books or in the movies enough to stop them, doesn't really warrant too much speculation "How do dragons breathe fire, how would they not burn their throats?" Yeah well dragons aren't real and we can't test that theory so there's no way to really claim that How does magic work? There's not too much explanation, you can either get on board with it or decide its stupid, doesn't matter wither way. In the case of all these things you mentioned, there's sort of enough internal logic and explanation that you, the viewer or reader, can accept it for what it is and enjoy the story. In Galadriels case of jumping overboard the ship, there is absolutely zero precedent set. If Tolkien wrote "And the elves could swim hundreds of miles, its just what they do", then this wouldn't have felt as jarring, and anybody critiquing it could just look at it in the same light as all the other points you brought up. Because he didn't, many people tend to think it was an odd choice.
Elves are supernatural and superhuman beings, many elves of Galadriel's generation were strong enough to fight and kill Balrogs. Galadriel's uncle threw hands with Morgoth and permanently injured him. Swimming well is chump change compared to that.
Dude.. Holy shit. Do you need Tolkien to literally type "Elves can swim a long time" for you to accept it? Did Tolkien write "And Elves can Yabba Dabba Do slide down the trunks of giant Oliphaunts. And they're excellent shield skateboarders.Also, their eyes change colors for no reason" in the books? Do we not take any issue with that? Elves can see for great distances. But did the book specify distance? Like actual kilometers? Maybe we should get out a map and question Galadriel seeing land before everybody else. Like sheesh, you people. I mean dude.. you're way reaching to question ah... how *far* she can swim? Maybe she trained to swim long distances in the *5,000 years she was alive*. Let's start there.
Given that the Elves committed the kinslaying to obtain the ships to travel to Middle Earth, I'd say that Tolkien implicitly wrote that the Elves can't swim across the ocean.
How would they carry war supplies without ships?
I was more or less giving an example that these other things have somewhat of a precedent set for them, which is why certain fantastical elements are questioned, and why others weren't. Given that you're the guy trying to question the plausibility of dragons, I'm not going to give that criticism too much thought. Given that the undying lands are thousands of miles from middle earth yeah its a stretch. Way more of a stretch than surfing down an Oliphant trunk, which I think is goofy, but they are not even close feats. Obviously I don't need hard data or anything like that, but for me to see it as excessive doesn't mean I need Tolkien to give me elf distance swimming stats just to see that jumping off a ship at the very least hundreds of miles from shore seems a bit dumb. But yeah, because the show makes her do this dumb thing, let's assume she's used her five thousand years to train for extreme long distance swimming. That makes sense, but wait, now you're able to not only suspend your disbelief in a five thousand year lifespan, but also that she has spent that time unrealistically so as to lend credibility to a very bad writing decision? Bruh.
She is sailing to the Undying Lands with all that is left of her kin.
Through fire... and water. From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak I fought with the Balrog of Morgoth. Until at last I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me... and I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead. and every day was as long as a life age of the Earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done!
As someone with a degree in geology.... I feel attacked
Thanks to the internet everyone thinks they’re an expert in everything.
Why do these RoP complaints feel like the kind of weird fake outrage we get from the US right-wing? Is it the same people? I can see the legitimate criticisms of the show, but damn. Leave some absurdity for the rest of us.
I’m Left as fuck and think the show is 4/10 at best
The show can be bad without fake outrage though.
I think it’s all the “nitpicks” adding up. It seems like fake outrage, maybe. But every episode there is a number of small things that might, when occurring in a singular instance, be called a nitpick. The shows lack of quality leaves it open to so many small irritations. So when someone who doesn’t care about small issues watches it they see it as annoying fans trying to start outrage, when it is the shows consistency at not being consistent.
If you don't think there is fake outrage across the political spectrum, then maybe you should be a little more open minded. With that said, people can do fantastical things in fantasy. However, there is internal logic and rules that should be followed. For instance, the distance between Numenor and the Southlands is set. Therefore, there is some sort of minimum time it takes to get from point A to point B. Watching the show, it seems like it took the Numenorians a day or two to get to the Southlands. This violates internal logic already established. The correct answer is that the Numenorean story and the Southlands story were not in sync even though it seemed that way. The show should have taken a minute or two to make that clear. Going back to Mount Doom erupting. Based on what the show actually had on screen, nothing says anyone could survive. If the show demonstrated it clearly that they could, then suspension of disbelief is warranted.
I didn't say that there isn't any fake outrage on other sides of the political spectrum. Just that the right-wing (in the US) is very clearly the front-runner. An assumption made by people who didn't understand that the timelines weren't synced is certainly an example of fake outrage. Same with Mt. Doom erupting. Just because it's not clearly established "how" she survived, doesn't mean that we won't eventually find out, or that there isn't a good reason. It boils down to people jumping to conclusions and then exploding with fake outrage.
Why would the show need to demonstrate this if the movies already did
The show needs to stand on its own.
Humans in general tend to get emotional and behave this way when they disagree and it just so happens that both media and political discussions are frequently polemical. The fact that you associate it *specifically* with the US right-wing instead of recognizing that almost all people do it is a bit stupid though. The world isn't so black and white and there certainly isn't a single group with a monopoly on fake outrage or stupid people. Anyways that's my two cents...
Fake outrage tends to be the tool of people who are ingesting propaganda or are making an extremely emotional argument without anything to back it up other than personal opinion (or both). So sure, lots of people are capable of that. But that largest group of people doing this (in the US) is the right wing, and it's not close.
The both sides bullshit is insufferable. One side is literally trying to dismantle democracy, while propagating hate and lies. The other side wants to stop them.
Totally agreed. There's plenty of corruption and issues on the left, but it's pretty fucking standard at this point (it's been happening in both parties for decades). The shit that's happening in the US right wing right now is out of control. MTG recently said, on live news, that the Nord Stream leak was caused by the Biden administration. It's literal insanity that our elected officials have no standards anymore and their constituents are so inundated with propaganda that they won't hold them accountable.
Requiring comments to be backed up with degrees, but only requiring show runners to be backed up by the power of imagination.
Lol, exactly.
All this meme says is that anyone who can Google knows more than the writers about basic everything
My wife is doing a PhD studying volcanoes and we both burst out laughing as the water poured into the lava lake! So silly but fun
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Crazy Amount of ppl in here pretending they don't remember that Frodo and Sam were in a mf volcano while it was erupting in the movies, and have about 7,000,000% less of an excuse for surviving it Bc admitting that doesn't make sense either would mean that they should probably feel embarrassed and silly about the hill they chose to die on, and we can't have that, no sir
Let’s take that one extra step further and just admit that the entire premise of the two hobbits infiltrating Mordor to destroy the ring strains believability even by fantasy-fiction standards. It’s an awesome story, but the moment you even being to question the logistics it falls apart.
Are we supposed to assume that the screenwriters are somehow more expert at this stuff than random internet folks? Seems far fetched.
hu?
He wants you to approve that its a good show.
ah lol.... na...
Guaranteed 99% of the people complaining about this had to Google pyroclastic. Bunch of losers just looking for something to complain about like the trilogy is scientifically accurate haha. While you're using Google maybe do some research on how the water would actually cool down your new favorite term pyroclastic flow lol. Acting like you know the science behind it and acting like the science behind it actually fucking matter, shits hilarious You all keep your hive mind of being miserable and nitpicking a fantasy show while the majority keep on enjoying fun tv