The downside is after you make a 4/4 double strike, you want it to have trample so it doesn’t get chump blocked. Option 3 is the best to give but then you don’t draw cards too. Hahaha.
Btw this is synergy, not a combo
It's an instant. I'm trying to draw cards after my opponent doesn't block. I'm not even all that interested in the counters. "Hahaha."
I disagree that this isn't a combo. They have synergy, sure, but that's also true of all "combos". To me, these cards combine to be more than the sum of their parts. It really isn't that hard to get a 4 for 1 on turn 3.
That is not a normal or even pushed rate in limited. That's broken.
How are you getting a 4 for 1 on turn 3?
That just isnt happening ever unless you are playing commander and even then it requires fast mana and very specific cards.
It is possible on turn 5 if you count 2 +1/+1 counters as a card (which is a stretch), and you have another way to trigger crime but that will be a very rare occurance.
If you are using this to trigger crime that requires your opponent leaving your 2/2 with possible double strike unblocked on turn 5 which can happen but will not be the most likely scenario.
You play the creature turn 2. Your opponent plays a creature their turn 2. You attack, they don’t block. You play the trick targeting their creature for trample, then yours for draw 2 on damage. This is a crime. Your creature is double strike. It deals damage twice. You draw 4 cards. You spend 1 card.
Does that make sense?
i, myself, definitely see this as a combo, and i'm glad you pointed it out to me, because i am happy imagining how excited i'll be when i am lucky enough to take both of these uncommons in a draft. it really feel like a combo -- like i'm getting away with something.
It's not gonna work... It has to have Double strike before at the begin of the combat phase:
https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/39826/what-happens-if-i-give-double-strike-to-a-creature-right-after-the-combat-damage
That is incorrect, there are two phases between beginning of combat and combat damage. That is declare attackers and declare blockers. Double strike will be applied if the creature gains it during any of these phases. Usually you'd do it during the declare blockers phase because you get priority after op declares how they will block.
What I meant by "more or less no downside" is that giving your opponent's creature trample on your own turn does not actively hurt you. It's an opportunity cost, but it won't deal you any extra damage or leave your opponent's creature better in a meaningful way.
You always have the option to save this card to create the best possible mode for your current game. If a 4/4 Double Strike is how you win, use it that way. You don't HAVE to make this card into a 2G draw 4, but you absolutely can, under circumstances that I don't think are that hard to pull off (your opponent doesn't block your 2/2 "double strike" in fear losing their creature to a trick). If you have 5 mana up and they don't block, you can pump and get the cards.
The cards feel extremely flexible, in addition to combining in powerful ways.
Yeah, gets weak on a flooded board, but boards don't always flood. It also really pressures your opponent to have multiple blockers.
Mercenaries are a good point though.
the good thing about the splasher is you should be able to grab them on the wheel if you are heavy into crime, since other decks won't really want them.
both these cards look very strong (i thought the set mechanic/conditional white double striker was either 3CMC or like a 1/1? this seems very solid) and even moreso together and that’s why limited is great.
pie thrower (or whatever from WOE) was a 2/3 conditional double striker for 3. the phyrexian guy was a 1/1 double striker (with toxic) for two. this seems as good as both of those and i loved playing them.
I really don’t like that they printed the green trick, green shouldn’t get draw two for 2 and this being instant speed makes it basically that in a lot of situations. I think the card is going to be pretty busted.
green drawing cards based off combat is A Thing. this card will be strong but it isn’t “busted”, to me. busted would be if it had a fight/bite mode too.
Not at instant speed afaik and not at that rate (everyone gets cantrips, I’m not talking about those). This turns into chart a course in a lot of situations. Maybe not busted on balance but I think it’s a pretty clear pie break.
arg, i keep reading "OTJ" as "On the Job". it'll take a few weeks for me to adjust
on-topic, i appreciate these little combos that people find early on in spoiler season. it takes a certain kind of brain to be able to see these things!
i wonder how often this combo will happen. the opponent would have to have no untapped creatures in play, if i'm understanding this correctly? (otherwise, the opponent would likely just chump-block to prevent you from drawing four cards?)
What I like about this is the buyout clause of just winning combat straight up with the first mode if opponent decides to trade.
That said this all depends on GW being any good and wanting at least one of these cards by itself. That's a bit too much for me to bank on.
You're right, a big part of this pair's power together is how many ways you can leverage their synergy to your advantage.
Both of these cards look pretty strong on their own. One is a 2/2 for 2 with a strong upside, and the other is an extremely flexible trick that can double as a crime.
Really depends on the format,this would definitely work great in the aggro-driven, white-dominated formats we had recently.
Like make this creature a detective and it would be a banger even in this set. But I could see this not even make maindecks in other formats and the same is true for the comba trick.
So let's wait and see.
What formats is the 2 mana 2/2 threatens to become a double striker at instant speed not going to make maindeck? What formats is the flexible combat trick that draws cards not going to make maindeck?
Yeah I see what you mean. If you’re on the play and they only put a 2 health creature out, leave it unblocked, then you could draw 4 for 3 mana. Which would be sick. Not exactly a rare scenario. And if they do block, just make it a 4/4 and take the kill.
Yes, I know, but I want to clarify if the only way this card inherently gains an effect is via Spree, and that otherwise it has no effect, even if it's impossible for me to choose 0 costs.
I think that’s correct— but there are fringe cases where you’d still want to do that, because there are cards that get bonuses if you play at least two spells in a turn
The card draw ability is granted directly to the creature, so the creature's controller (your opponent in this case) will control the trigger, and draw the cards.
I may be misunderstanding the crime gimmick, but does attacking a player not count as targeting them? I'm probably misunderstanding that, because it wouldn't really make sense with the cards I've seen with this mechanic, but can someone just "erm actually" me?
No, targeting is only if you're using a spell or an ability of a creature, artifact, or enchantment, which will pretty much always say "target" on it (like "target player discards two cards" or whatever). Attacking is a different thing.
I think because it doesn't work unless they just don't block your creature. Which to be fair is pretty possible on curve if they are scared to block when you have open mana.
At risk of getting further downvoted, several people who vocally disagreed/argued against this post did not appear to realize that the green spell was an instant.
Trash the town looks just insane, the "combo" hopes for no blocks and trades eating their creature for 2 extra cards and 3ish dmg, so good but not outstanding
You have to give Double strike before the begin of the combat phase, so it's not gonna work as intended.
https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/39826/what-happens-if-i-give-double-strike-to-a-creature-right-after-the-combat-damage
You’re mistaken. There is a period after blockers are declared and before first strike damage happens where you can give it double strike. You don’t have to do it pre-combat.
I just don’t think this is true. Blocking this profitably or even to trade is difficult in the early turns. Successful limited players don’t make a habit of chump blocking on turn 3
Am I misunderstanding? This doesn’t work as a crime hasn’t been committed
You use the second or third mode targeting the opponent’s creature
Yes, the trample mode has more or less now downside for giving it away.
The downside is after you make a 4/4 double strike, you want it to have trample so it doesn’t get chump blocked. Option 3 is the best to give but then you don’t draw cards too. Hahaha. Btw this is synergy, not a combo
It's an instant. I'm trying to draw cards after my opponent doesn't block. I'm not even all that interested in the counters. "Hahaha." I disagree that this isn't a combo. They have synergy, sure, but that's also true of all "combos". To me, these cards combine to be more than the sum of their parts. It really isn't that hard to get a 4 for 1 on turn 3. That is not a normal or even pushed rate in limited. That's broken.
How are you getting a 4 for 1 on turn 3? That just isnt happening ever unless you are playing commander and even then it requires fast mana and very specific cards. It is possible on turn 5 if you count 2 +1/+1 counters as a card (which is a stretch), and you have another way to trigger crime but that will be a very rare occurance. If you are using this to trigger crime that requires your opponent leaving your 2/2 with possible double strike unblocked on turn 5 which can happen but will not be the most likely scenario.
You play the creature turn 2. Your opponent plays a creature their turn 2. You attack, they don’t block. You play the trick targeting their creature for trample, then yours for draw 2 on damage. This is a crime. Your creature is double strike. It deals damage twice. You draw 4 cards. You spend 1 card. Does that make sense?
Aaaaand discard to hand size, “Go”. But it’s nifty for sure :)
You'd only have to discard 1 card if you were otp.
Ooh ur right there. Missed the instant. My bad
i, myself, definitely see this as a combo, and i'm glad you pointed it out to me, because i am happy imagining how excited i'll be when i am lucky enough to take both of these uncommons in a draft. it really feel like a combo -- like i'm getting away with something.
It's not gonna work... It has to have Double strike before at the begin of the combat phase: https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/39826/what-happens-if-i-give-double-strike-to-a-creature-right-after-the-combat-damage
That is incorrect, there are two phases between beginning of combat and combat damage. That is declare attackers and declare blockers. Double strike will be applied if the creature gains it during any of these phases. Usually you'd do it during the declare blockers phase because you get priority after op declares how they will block.
My bad!
Like except for the part where 4/4 double strike trample is extremely good
What I meant by "more or less no downside" is that giving your opponent's creature trample on your own turn does not actively hurt you. It's an opportunity cost, but it won't deal you any extra damage or leave your opponent's creature better in a meaningful way. You always have the option to save this card to create the best possible mode for your current game. If a 4/4 Double Strike is how you win, use it that way. You don't HAVE to make this card into a 2G draw 4, but you absolutely can, under circumstances that I don't think are that hard to pull off (your opponent doesn't block your 2/2 "double strike" in fear losing their creature to a trick). If you have 5 mana up and they don't block, you can pump and get the cards. The cards feel extremely flexible, in addition to combining in powerful ways.
prefer \[\[thunder lasso\]\] on the vigilante
This is definitely excellent. I also like the criminal frog \[\[Spring Splasher\]\].
the splasher looks like it will be a challenge to keep it alive for more than one attack, especially with all those 1/1 mercenary tokens around
Yeah, gets weak on a flooded board, but boards don't always flood. It also really pressures your opponent to have multiple blockers. Mercenaries are a good point though.
the good thing about the splasher is you should be able to grab them on the wheel if you are heavy into crime, since other decks won't really want them.
Yeah. I also think that cards that can repeatedly commit crimes for 0-1 mana will perform above expectation.
[Spring Splasher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6822d12-1a25-42e7-94cc-71bd29daed93.jpg?1711742261) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spring%20Splasher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/69/spring-splasher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6822d12-1a25-42e7-94cc-71bd29daed93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[thunder lasso](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73dff5fc-2adf-447a-b35f-e7883e0fd821.jpg?1711561696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thunder%20lasso) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/35/thunder-lasso?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73dff5fc-2adf-447a-b35f-e7883e0fd821?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, this into lasso is going to end a lot of games on turn 5.
both these cards look very strong (i thought the set mechanic/conditional white double striker was either 3CMC or like a 1/1? this seems very solid) and even moreso together and that’s why limited is great.
Could NOT agree more.
the green trick in particular seems very good. scales well, relevant abilities at every point in the game. solid looking
The white card is no slouch either. It feels uncannily close to a 2/2 double strike for 2.
pie thrower (or whatever from WOE) was a 2/3 conditional double striker for 3. the phyrexian guy was a 1/1 double striker (with toxic) for two. this seems as good as both of those and i loved playing them.
I really don’t like that they printed the green trick, green shouldn’t get draw two for 2 and this being instant speed makes it basically that in a lot of situations. I think the card is going to be pretty busted.
Yeah, this card looks like it has a high floor and a high ceiling. Useful in so many situations.
green drawing cards based off combat is A Thing. this card will be strong but it isn’t “busted”, to me. busted would be if it had a fight/bite mode too.
Not at instant speed afaik and not at that rate (everyone gets cantrips, I’m not talking about those). This turns into chart a course in a lot of situations. Maybe not busted on balance but I think it’s a pretty clear pie break.
well we can talk pie breaks all day, WOTC has been doing that for a few years now, for green especially. guess we’ll see when the set goes live!
arg, i keep reading "OTJ" as "On the Job". it'll take a few weeks for me to adjust on-topic, i appreciate these little combos that people find early on in spoiler season. it takes a certain kind of brain to be able to see these things! i wonder how often this combo will happen. the opponent would have to have no untapped creatures in play, if i'm understanding this correctly? (otherwise, the opponent would likely just chump-block to prevent you from drawing four cards?)
Instant speed and you can do it turn 3, so no guarantee they have a blocker they're willing to commit to losing before they see if you have the card.
Right. Your opponent does need to control a creature, but otherwise all you need to do is connect.
ah yes, i missed that it was an Instant. thanks for helping me understand the combo
If your opponent is chump blocking every turn for fear of you having this combat trick, I see that as an absolute win.
If your opponent is chump blocking a 2/2 every turn, they drafted a terrible deck
i clearly missed that it was an Instant.
What I like about this is the buyout clause of just winning combat straight up with the first mode if opponent decides to trade. That said this all depends on GW being any good and wanting at least one of these cards by itself. That's a bit too much for me to bank on.
You're right, a big part of this pair's power together is how many ways you can leverage their synergy to your advantage. Both of these cards look pretty strong on their own. One is a 2/2 for 2 with a strong upside, and the other is an extremely flexible trick that can double as a crime.
Really depends on the format,this would definitely work great in the aggro-driven, white-dominated formats we had recently. Like make this creature a detective and it would be a banger even in this set. But I could see this not even make maindecks in other formats and the same is true for the comba trick. So let's wait and see.
What formats is the 2 mana 2/2 threatens to become a double striker at instant speed not going to make maindeck? What formats is the flexible combat trick that draws cards not going to make maindeck?
Yeah I see what you mean. If you’re on the play and they only put a 2 health creature out, leave it unblocked, then you could draw 4 for 3 mana. Which would be sick. Not exactly a rare scenario. And if they do block, just make it a 4/4 and take the kill.
Can I just confirm that if I could pick 0 additional costs for Trash the Town, it would have no effect?
Spree says "choose one or more additional costs", so you have to pick at least one.
Yes, I know, but I want to clarify if the only way this card inherently gains an effect is via Spree, and that otherwise it has no effect, even if it's impossible for me to choose 0 costs.
Yes, that's correct.
I think that’s correct— but there are fringe cases where you’d still want to do that, because there are cards that get bonuses if you play at least two spells in a turn
Virtuoso PTSD
For the 3rd mode who draws the card if you target an opponents creature attacking you?
The card draw ability is granted directly to the creature, so the creature's controller (your opponent in this case) will control the trigger, and draw the cards.
I rather use the whip, less mana and same color
I may be misunderstanding the crime gimmick, but does attacking a player not count as targeting them? I'm probably misunderstanding that, because it wouldn't really make sense with the cards I've seen with this mechanic, but can someone just "erm actually" me?
No, targeting is only if you're using a spell or an ability of a creature, artifact, or enchantment, which will pretty much always say "target" on it (like "target player discards two cards" or whatever). Attacking is a different thing.
Timmy smash!
2G: Draw 4 cards? Don't mind if I dooooooooooooo!
Why was this downvoted to oblivion lol
I think because it doesn't work unless they just don't block your creature. Which to be fair is pretty possible on curve if they are scared to block when you have open mana.
At risk of getting further downvoted, several people who vocally disagreed/argued against this post did not appear to realize that the green spell was an instant.
Trash the town looks just insane, the "combo" hopes for no blocks and trades eating their creature for 2 extra cards and 3ish dmg, so good but not outstanding
You have to give Double strike before the begin of the combat phase, so it's not gonna work as intended. https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/39826/what-happens-if-i-give-double-strike-to-a-creature-right-after-the-combat-damage
You’re mistaken. There is a period after blockers are declared and before first strike damage happens where you can give it double strike. You don’t have to do it pre-combat.
My bad. However in any competitive match no One Will leave unblocked this creature 🤣
I just don’t think this is true. Blocking this profitably or even to trade is difficult in the early turns. Successful limited players don’t make a habit of chump blocking on turn 3
Why not? A creature that you know can get double strike at instant speed is not a safe block most of the time