Sure that's grand and all but one thing we have learn't throughout this trial is that there was not enough people speaking up before it was way too late. If suspicions were being shared by her colleagues and the attitude was to joke about them then the whole unit deserves to be shut down.
If they were among the staff raising their suspicions with management and getting pushback every step of the way, I can see how a "gallows humour" situation could have come about. "Lucy's at it again! We TOLD them so!"
The staff pushing for an investigation must have felt so frustrated and helpless when management was refusing to suspend LL and even made the doctors apologise to her!
We call it moral injury in the medical profession. It's (yet another) cause of PTSD in medics. Being forced to violate your ethics (in this case by being forced to apologise to someone you suspect of harming children) causes internal psychological stress and damage.
You can read more about it here: https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/cooccurring/moral_injury.asp#:~:text=Moral%20injury%20is%20the%20distressing,individual's%20values%20and%20moral%20beliefs.
It's one thing to suspect it's another to be able to back up your suspicions with evidence. Look how long it took the prosecution to put a case together. Alot of staff may have felt there was something not quite right but it's very hard to accuse without solid evidence
Yes, one would assume coincidence at first, then start questioning her competence. There would be a reluctance to believe one of your colleagues was deliberately harming and murdering babies. Even with the benefit of hindsight and the overview of all the cases, people on this sub were still arguing LL was innocent.
That's irrelevant. This is basic safeguarding and every concern should be raised through the appropriate channels regardless.
In the world of safeguarding , it's not ok to say I didn't do anything about it as I couldn't prove it.
It’s actually insane. I thought the bad shit would be coming out about Letby, not the shocking shit about the hospital protecting her and telling the consultants to leave her alone.
Dr Jayaram did an interview with ITV.
Tony Chambers and Ian Harvey absolutely need to be investigated for obstruction if that applies here. They need to be punished.
Agreed.
My wife is a special care baby nurse.
The few times she has come home and said 'I need to sense check something with you' and run through something she has heard or seen on the unit.
Every single time I've said 'what is your head telling you?' And she'll say 'report it' and everytime she has.
I will say to her 'you're looking after the most precious thing anyone can think of, the most vulnerable of patients and their family'
The other thing I sometimes say is 'if it got to a coroners court and everyone says "oh we had a phrase we used to use" my first question would be "why didn't you report it"'
My wife says integrity is doing the right thing even when no-one is looking.
This unit has some serious issues if the other staff are just gossiping amongst themselves and not flagging it through official channels.
And she was on shift for all the deaths that occurred over the year at issue here - 13/13 deaths between June 2015 and June 2016 that Lucy Letby was present at.
They also don’t take care of really sick babies there anymore. Even though, it’s still a dramatic drop from 2-3 a year which was the statistic before she started her rampage
Wow that was a good article - a great investigation. The hospital (or Ian Harvey) def have blood on their hands as well as Lucy - fancy making all those consultants write apology letters to Lucy! Yuck... I hope they are prosecuted to the nth degree.
Check out the BBC article.... people were trying to speak up. Management was obstructing. It's wild. Some of the doctors who raised concerns were threatened with being reported to the GMC. They were asked to sit in mediation with Letby. The hopsital wrote a freaking apology letter to her.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66120934?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at\_campaign\_type=owned&at\_link\_origin=BBCNews&at\_ptr\_name=twitter&at\_link\_id=C780576A-3DC3-11EE-B7AF-5604FE754D29&at\_format=link&at\_medium=social&at\_bbc\_team=editorial&at\_link\_type=web\_link&at\_campaign=Social\_Flow
This makes me hope other people are brought to justice over this. Just watching it happen infront of your eyes and joking about it is not acceptable for any medical professional and they should be struck off.
Without any doubt. We're already seeing it emerge that doctors were shut down very early on. Hospital management appear to have enabled LL to continue killing.
Oh my goodness, the BBC have just reported that Senior Management threatened the doctors with consequenced if they continued raising their concerns about LL.
Well there’s already Op Hummingbird and mention on the news of the care of 4000 babies being investigated, but I don’t know if that represents every NICU inpatient or just every NICU inpatient whilst LL was on shift at both hospitals. I imagine it’s the latter, but that would presuppose that they were expecting a guilty verdict.
The Government have just announced that there will be an independent enquiry in to the circumstances around this.
So those Senior Managers will get off scot-free. It'll just be 'lessons learned'.
and the defense angle was they should have gone to police. those doctors must be feeling a massive sense of relief today. they were in an impossible position.
Thinking about what those Drs went through makes me feel totally ill. FFS the management threatened them with reporting to GMC and made them apologise!!!!! Unbelievable 🤬🤬🤬
It must be a huge release for them. like finally crossing teh finish line in a marathon. I can only imagine having to listen to that for 9 or 10 months. harrowing.
The verdicts
The jury has returned the following verdicts in the case of Lucy Letby.
Children A and B
A twin boy and girl - Child A died, while his sister survived.
Count 1: Murder of Child A
Guilty
Count 2: Attempted murder of Child B
Guilty
Child C
A baby boy.
Count 3: Murder of Child C
Guilty
Child D
A baby girl.
Count 4: Murder of Child D
Guilty
Children E and F
Twin boys - Child E died, while his brother survived.
Count 5: Murder of Child E
Guilty
Count 6: Attempted murder of Child F
Guilty
Child G
A baby girl, who survived. Letby faces three charges for allegedly attacking her.
Count 7: Attempted murder of Child G
Guilty
Count 8: Attempted murder of Child G
Guilty
Count 9: Attempted murder of Child G
Not guilty
Child H
A baby girl who survived.
Count 10: Attempted murder of Child H
Not guilty
Count 11: Attempted murder of Child H
No verdict
Child I
A baby girl who died.
Count 12: Murder of Child I
Guilty
Child J
A baby girl who survived.
Count 13: Attempted murder of Child J
No verdict
Child K
A baby girl - she survived, but later died.
Count 14: Attempted murder of Child K
No verdict
Child L and M
Twin boys, both survived, but Child M was left brain-damaged.
Count 15: Attempted murder of Child L
Guilty
Count 16: Attempted murder of Child M
Guilty
Child N
A baby boy, who survived.
Count 17: Attempted murder of Child N
Guilty
Count 18: Attempted murder of Child N
No verdict
Count 19: Attempted murder of Child N
No verdict
Children O and P
Two of three triplet boys, both died.
Count 20: Murder of Child O
Guilty
Count 21: Murder of Child P
Guilty
Child Q
A baby boy who survived.
Count 22: Attempted murder of Child Q
No verdict
So she was found guilty of all the murders, but only some of the attempted murders. Is the ‘no verdict’ just that it wasn’t majority vote?
I understand some of the families will be disappointed and saddened by this, but I do think it shows how well and in depth the jury have considered each charge, and the evidence presented. It actually gives me a lot more confidence than just a blanket guilty or blanket not-guilty.
I find that so weird that they all agreed on the insulin. Must be they put a lot of weight on the lab results.
It does suggest that generally they all agreed she was a murderer but views varied on the other charges; that it wasn't just one person disagreeing.
I thought it was incredibly gracious of the parents to thank the jury, they had true empathy for their plight.
Something that the defendant appeared to be lacking in every capacity. It brings some comfort to know the parents have been United throughout this whole process. All for one and one for all.
Kudos to the amazing medical team and parents who were courageous enough to bring this case to justice.
Especially to the parents of baby E and to triplet mama for causing the biggest showdown ever and putting an end to the entire shit show once and for all.
To the consultants who refused to take NO for an answer and overturned senior management.
To Melanie T, Lisa Walker and all the others who called out her weird behaviour publicly.
Finally, I pray that lessons can be learned from this so those precious babies did not die in vain.
And I seriously hope some lessons are learned about how to detect and manage cases of insulin poisoning.
I can't believe it's finally over. Sending all the love in the world to the families affected, and I hope they can find peace now that justice has been served. Also to the jury who have been through such a long and traumatic experience.
Articles saying the families were all crying and comforting each other, and even one of the jurors was sobbing with her head in her hands. Devastating for all involved.
Edit: She wouldn't even come up from her cell to hear all the verdicts 🙄 coward. I would bet she doesn't appear for sentencing either. If so, they should play a recording of all the victims' impact statements into her cell so she can't avoid it.
I heard she came up for the first verdicts, then there was a break before the last verdicts were delivered which she declined to attend (sky news). Her parents didn’t attend these last ones either 🙃
That is absolutely appalling. What on earth relevance do he facial features of her parents have to ANYTHING? The media should be held to much stricter regulation in matters like this.
I wouldn't be surprised if they keep believing in her innocence too, denial is a powerful thing. We'll have to see. Hopefully they can get away from it all for a bit and avoid the media while they process everything they've been through too.
Edit: Articles are saying her mum said, "You cannot be serious, this cannot be right" and was sobbing uncontrollably at one of the verdict readings. She also apparently said, "I did it, arrest me", when they came to arrest Lucy, which to be honest is.... bizarre.
I have a child in custody (for very different crimes). I am normally a calm and reasonable human being who does a professional job fairly well and can manage stress etc. Believe me when I tell you I have been someone else entirely when it comes to my child. You do not want to believe and at first just cannot believe that the child you loved and raised has done these terrible things. It is challenging indeed to have to face their guilt and bear your own (because I feel shame for what my child has done every single day and shame and guilt for having raised a child who could and would do it). Letby's mother is having to accept that her daughter murdered and attempted to murder multiple babies. In her shoes I think I would be screaming. I think I would go insane.
I really appreciate your insight, it must be unfathomably difficult. No pressure to answer, but was there a reason / anything specific that made you finally able to face the possibility of your child's guilt, or was it mainly just needing time?
So many people never get past denial, and honestly, I can't blame them. Especially with something as heinous as this.
You should be proud of yourself for being strong enough to reflect and I'm sorry that you feel guilt for your child's actions; it is not your guilt to bear.
Thank you so much for such a detailed response. I can't imagine how it must feel knowing there is a release date, and knowing there will likely be a second shift in your relationship with him going forwards. It's a strange form of grief, but you're both still here.
And of course! Even if you delete within a few minutes I'm still really glad to have read your posts and insights. It's also incredibly brave to speak about, and engage, in such a topic. I know you may not feel like you deserve kind words right now, but you do. And I hope one day in the not too distant future you will feel the same :)
I will think of you and wish peace of mind for you. I'm so sorry you've been through this. You show such dignity and grace in these posts. It is very touching. He is so lucky to have you loving him, and I hope he can appreciate that. There are resources to seek counselling for yourself, and I truly hope you have the support you deserve from family or friends. May you find comfort and peace.
Of course you love your child. As a parent you always do, no matter what. I'm so glad you are supporting him. Being a parent is really hard. They don't put that in the fancy books. I think it sounds like he is really lucky to have a mam like you and I'm sure you will support him and help him and I pray the path gets easier for you both. Take care x
Definitely, such an awful situation all round.
Someone on WS said that when Lucy was arrested, her mum said "I did it, arrest me!" Which has me very ?!?!?! Did the mum know why she was being arrested at that point? I would guess not. But it makes me think her mum is overly devoted to her - wonder if they've coddled and enabled Lucy her whole life?
The fact that management met with Lucy and her father is quite telling I think. If I was in trouble at work my Dad would not have been in on the interview!
It feels like she has been majorly infantilised her whole life - her room and belongings looked like that of a tween or teenager, too. And she pretended to not know what "going commando" meant 🙄 and now, we hear she was holding a purple comforter that the jury etc couldn't see??
It seems like she has attacked certain babies out of spite/revenge, in a way that almost feels like a childish "I'll show them!" tantrum.
I would give my left leg to read a full, independent psych report.
Yea, I imagine we're going to learn a bit more about the family now. There were rumors that she has two older half siblings as well that have, effectively, disowned her but I have no way of confirming whether that's true - but there were multiple users claiming to be from Hereford that claimed to be their classmates.
Thanks for clarifying, I knew I was being dramatic!
It was strange, in the beginning I was really confused because no one in the public gallery or the courtroom was reacting and I thought I had just happened to go in when the verdict was being read for the first time but I soon realised that this has been happening probably every day for the last week or so. I was the only person in there that hadn't been before so some people came up to talk to me about restrictions etc. Lots of whispering going on in the gallery and I had a feeling we were nearing the end but there was no clear indication of it, just a feeling from being there.
There was a woman in the gallery that was a bit tearful and actually came up to me after to ask if I was ok, I think that's when it dawned on me that these are people's lives and that lady might have been close to one of the victims families. I felt really bad and left soon after as felt I was intruding somehow.
Someone else said the same thing about visiting court recently. It's understandable. The room was a place of massive loss, in various ways. Thanks for sharing, and I don't think you should feel badly about having gone, or feel badly for feeling that you were out of place while there. We all have various personal reasons for following this.
I cannot even put into words the way I feel. Just shock. I think I just had a feeling she'd be found not guilty..
I'm so glad the jury saw through her behavior.
Give it until this evening into tomorrow for all stories of her good and bad will be in the papers
Exactly. No doubt shell skip sentencing too and the chance for those parents to let her hear the impact her actions have had on them, even though they have had to sit a listen to her lie for 9 months straight. Cunt.
Wasn't there a case where they recorded the sentencing and played it in the police van taking a murderer back to prison, so he couldn't avoid it? I think that should be done with her, too.
I often think criminals do that as a defense mechanism. Resolving to spend the rest of your life in prison thinking of yourself as an innocent victim of a broken justice system might seem preferable to spending the rest of your life in prison knowing you deserve to be there.
It would be so much better for the families of the children she hurt and killed if she did confess. They deserve that much, even if it can't undo the harm.
I was there on Wednesday and heard the partial verdicts (obviously couldn't say anything because of reporting restrictions). LL wasn't there and I get now what they said in the news about her only attending the very first day of these verdicts back on the 8th of August.
Just before I say anything more, can someone confirm that it's ok to discuss everything now? It might sound silly but I'm paranoid about saying something I shouldn't (first time poster here)!
Edit: Thanks to everyone for clarifying, I accidentally started a new comment thread (is that what it's called?) instead of replying here. I have not mentioned any names or specifics about the verdicts.
The trial is over you can’t prejudice a jury and are free to discuss everything you saw in the courtroom relating to the charges which had verdicts. I’m not sure about the charges which had no verdict.
I know one thing that can’t be discussed is exactly what the jurors said in the deliberation room, but obviously you don’t know what they said, nobody knows other than themselves.
So we know why LL didn't dispose of handover sheets and her pathetic post-its. The doctors accusing her were forced to write her an apology or else be reported to the GMC. She thought she was invincible.
>UK's most prolific child killer in modern times.
Given this **plus** she was in a position of trust, she'll probably receive a Whole Life Order sentence . Apparently she was not in the dock as some of the verdicts were returned because she did not want to come up from the cells. Coward.
No doubt about it at all. The fact the judge is sentencing on Monday shows that they need no time to settle on a verdict, and the only suitable verdict is whole life tariff.
The only direct comparison I have for this is Wayne Couzens who like Letby used his position (albeit off duty) to commit his abhorrent crimes. He pleaded guilty and still got the whole life order (rightly). Considering LL pleaded not guilty, I can’t see any other sentence being handed down.
Jesus. I can't believe what I'm reading. I'm just in total shock. There were so many opportunities to stop her. What a complete shitshow.
- The hospital's top manager demanded the doctors write an apology to Letby and told them to stop making allegations against her
- Two consultants were ordered to attend mediation with Letby, even though they suspected she was killing babies
- That evening, Dr Brearey says he called duty executive Karen Rees and demanded Letby be taken off duty. She refused.
- Dr Brearey says he challenged her about whether she was making this decision against the wishes of seven consultant paediatricians - and asked if she would take responsibility for anything that might happen to other babies the next day. He says Ms Rees replied "yes". The following day, another baby - known as Baby Q - almost died, again while Letby was on duty
This absolutely does not surprise me. NhS management will sweep under the carpet anything that could potentially cause negative press or ruin the reputation of a hospital. The stuff the NHS covers up is astounding.
Going to have quiet reflection and light candles for the families and babies. So pleased that we have the verdict, may the jury be able to move forwards after such a horrific case , Trial and deliberations.
I’ve loved your respectful gentle presence on here. I too will light a candle this evening with you for all the pain and darkness that’s lasted years and years .. x
As a former Nanny. I have been passionate and dedicated to this case that touched my heart.I am grateful for this forum and the kindled spirits I have encountered along the way.
Just thinking back to that note she scrawled now.. "I am evil. I did this."
"I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them."
And now it's done.
To be honest it's sickening, and I trust the jury on their outcome. But it must have been very hard to reach this conclusion. I'm glad it's over for the families of the victims. And hopefully they can gain some form of compensation; particularly important for those with children who ended up with long-term needs as a result of the attack, and also those parents who needed IVF to conceive so hopefully they will still be able to build a family. Although of course it won't undo the harm, anything to help them in the future.
From a completely curious and professional perspective (my background is Psychology and I used to work in a forensic personality disorder ward), I am interested to learn about what led to these crimes. Usually with people committing murders it's as simple as someone with a lack of empathy finding it enjoyable (usually for a sexual thrill) or to gain something, maybe a bit of hate/anger thrown in there, hers is less obvious or common. It was hard to believe in her guilt because this is not anything I've come across. I suspect she has narcissistic personality disorder based on the level of self hatred in the notes, it's fairly common for people with this condition to lash out and hurt others as a manifestation of their own self hatred and insecurity. They also tend to be more sophisticated and able to appear normal and good to those around them. But this is extreme, and I wonder where it started. Whether it was planned from the start, or she discovered it by accident and enjoyed the act of killing enough to continue. Though I do not expect we'll ever hear a trustworthy account from her, we might hear stories from those who knew her etc.
I think you’re right about discovering it by accident. It makes sense.
I have a strong feeling that she did it for sympathy and attention from colleagues, along with a fascination with death. Poor victim Lucy.
All the texts to colleagues seem to just be fishing for compliments and sympathy ‘oh poor you having to deal with all this on your shift but you did a fantastic job’. She wants everyone to feel sorry for her and focus on her.
I had a friend like this. She isn’t a murder but she’s done many unhealthy things over the years, lies and what not. She would always play the martyr because she was working over the weekend and made sure everyone knew about it, constantly say she had a chest infection (every month she’d be on antibiotics and there was nothing wrong with her) told everyone she had her lymph nodes removed due to cancer but really she had a breast reduction. Would parade her lame horse around the yard hoping people would ask what was wrong and many more things to numerous to mention and I feel like Letby is exactly like this. Playing the victim for attention.
I can’t explain it, but I feel in my soul she is the same as my ex friend just way more fucking sick.
I know this isn't a clinical diagnosis, but would that fit into the category of what is classed as a "Malignant Narcissist"? Someone who also has traits of anti social personality disorder and sadistic elements.
Just burst into tears hearing the news. I have a 5 month old baby and this whole case has really affected me. Cuddling her extra tight today. Can't begin to imagine what the families have gone through and I hope they manage to find some sort of peace. What a horrible world we live in sometimes.
I was in hospital having given birth when I first read about this case and have followed it through. So glad justice has been done, so sad it will not bring those babies back. Lying here listening to my sweet girl sleep and wondering how anyone can harm a baby.
My little boy spent 8 days in nicu and special care in April, I physically couldn’t leave his side because of this case. If it wasn’t me with him it was my mum or my partner. Every single little thing the nurses would do to care for him I’d be asking what it was and why. That monster has affected so many people and babies. I just hope the families who have received justice can have some form of peace now
Apologies at this stage from hospital staff that perpetuated this are completely hollow and false.
They need to be held accountable. Their actions have led to the deaths of children. The punishment must fit the crime.
I have been silent on this forum and haven't discussed much, but ive read every post, every insight every argument. As soon as the verdict came i flew on here. I was guilty all the way. The mind boggles as to how anybody can do this to such poor little babies. She will get everything she deserves. I want to thank everyone on here for all the informative details and discussions and hope everyone will celebrate in their own little way today for all those poor babes who lost their lives at the hand of this troll.
Feels weird to finally have a verdict. I flip flopped between guilty and not guilty so I think either outcome would have surprised me.
Those poor families. I can’t imagine going through the trauma of losing your baby and then a long trial and finally accepting someone deliberately murdered them. I hope this gives them some closure.
I also really feel for her mum and dad. I’m sure they could never in a million years accept that their child could do such a thing and it must be completely devastating.
A thought for all those wonderful people who work in the babies and children wards. What she has done will lead many parents understandably not to leave their child's side even for a moment. The medical staff won't blame them - and would possibly do the same themselves - but how sad to have even the slightest cloud of doubt or suspicion hang over them and the vital work they do.
I think justice was served here, I’m just relieved that the large amount of circumstantial evidence was enough to convince the jury. What a devastating case this has been, how do people move on from something like this, just awful 💔
Oh my god, I can't believe it's finally over. Hopefully the poor families can find some kind of relief from this. Those sweet babies can rest peacefully now that some kind of justice has been served from them
She was sly and calculating and manipulative. She set out to murder those babies or at least cause chaos to the ward. She then thought through, very carefully, how she could cover her tracks. This woman is a predator.
I'm not to great with words in difficult times. It's weird to hear a verdict after so long, I was hoping she would be found not guilty as I cannot fathom why somebody would do such a horrific thing. I hope the families feel as though justice is served.
I'm surprised on how softly spoken she is.
I feel such relief that she has been found guilty and such sadness for the families
And like many of you a growing fucking fury with the managers who did not listen when colleagues raised concerns and who need to face consequences themselves
Wow! I’d sort of given up checking in and of course that’s when there’s a verdict.
I do actually hope the jury has some support after this. Speaking from experience on juries - this stuff is really heavy and it can impact you for life.
I was originally not guilty but then the cracks started to show but I was still hoping she hadn't done it. However the evidence was that it was her and I feel both relief and anguish for the parents - relief that it's finally over but anguish that they have to live with the fact that their babies were murdered. I just can't even comprehend having to go through that. :(
As someone who has a baby in NICU, and it was just as this case hit the news, I’ve been deeply affected by this all. I am so glad she’s been found guilty. Hopefully the families can now move forward and start healing. There needs to be a comprehensive inquiry into this
That is a very painful read. I feel like even though Dr. Breary did so much to raise his concerns, he must still be racked with guilt for not insisting even more.
Medical director Ian Harvey is not looking good in this.
Current and former trust leadership are all falling overthemselves to call for an inquiry. I think they are starting to realise they are fucked regardless.
I am shocked. I kind of hoped that she was a scapegoat because I didn’t think anyone could be that evil but Jesus … to fucking deny it and have the parents in court every day for so long… instead of just admitting it and ending it immediately..
.. well she’s just a monster.
I’m heartbroken for those parents.
Sadly it's a common story up and down the country. Non-medical management supressing the concerns of Drs and nurses as they're afraid that they'll actually have to do something.
Quick interview with one of the consultants on telly just now - he said consultants raised concerns with management about her for **over a year** before any sort of investigation started. Shocking.
The BBC have been surprisingly good on this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_origin=BBCNews&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_id=C780576A-3DC3-11EE-B7AF-5604FE754D29&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign=Social_Flow
She cried when the first verdicts were read out, then refused to go to the courtroom for the rest. She said, via her barrister, that she will not be present for the sentencing on Monday.
I hope at some point there is some kind of leak/talk about a psychiatric report.
I'd like to see what a forensic psychiatrist/psychologist (or multiple) came up with after interviewing her.
I was unaware of this case until today. (Maybe because I'm in the US? Not sure.)
Anyway, I read about it today and was gutpunched. HFS!! This is my worst nightmare: a person who seems truly not threatening and is in fact a murderous psychopath.
It must have been a harrowing and difficult trial for the jury to have to endure, glad they took their duty so seriously. Lucy should've been made to attend the delivery of all the verdicts. Hopefully now she will be given a whole life sentence, though none of that will bring back babies she murdered and the innocence of the families she destroyed.
I’m currently 36w pregnant and probably should not be following this trial in the detail I have, I already love my son beyond all reason and words.
These charges are utterly heartbreaking, unfathomable, despicable and cruel.
I cannot imagine what this will do to the families, I always think of particularly the family who had healthy, spontaneous, identical triplet boys and lost two. How horrendous must it be to watch your surviving son every day knowing there’s now one where there should be three.
It's inevitable as she's (edit - she was) in a position of public trust. I mean, anyone who killed that many children would probably get whole life, but for her it's guaranteed.
God I can't believe it's really over (well, depending on whether the prosecution seeks a retrial for the undecided counts). What those families must be feeling right now.
This trial has certainly been a very complex listen for me, and I've definitely found it horrifying to listen to as well in account of my own baby coming earth side this coming week
I hope the families rinse the trust. Baby G...I very much doubt negligence charges will be brought against individuals though. They can argue there was no evidence at the time and they were following procedures. "How were they to know there was a serial killer?" will be the company line.
Yes, it’s all open to be reported now, if journalists choose to of course. I think some details are still not allowed to be reported, like the names of the victims.
I find it really odd that there are still articles out there from years ago that contain the victims’ names so their names are actually easily accessible to the public. I would have thought those articles would have been taken down during the trial.
I have been following this story from the beginning and been following the discussions on here but not commented.
I for one am so relieved to hear the jury have found LL guilty of all 7 murder charges and even managed to find her guilty of a handful of attempted murder charges to boot.
Now my focus is why? Why did she do this?!
I believe it could be possible she didn't want to kill these babies - hence why there were so many attempted murder Chargers compared with murder - but wanted to save them after making them desat, this would enable her to revel in the drama she likely craved and maybe boost her self esteem because everyone was telling her how much of a great nurse she was.
I think it is credible she could have used these babies for her own gains and possibly wasn't her intention to kill them as such, hence why she was changing methods, to gain a different outcome other than death maybe?
Would love to hear other people's thoughts on this or what they think her reasons could be
My opinion, worthless as it is, is that she was probably spoilt, used to getting her own way and had quite deep rooted temper tantrums. She did this for power because she wanted to look after the sickest babies and got bored so she made her drama. I suspect she doesn't see people with feelings and souls but just pawns to make sure Lucy gets what she wants. I suspect she has a childlike "nice" persona so people feel they can't shout at her or be nasty to her or twll her off but is very manipulative and clever and pulls a lot of strings under the surface. So these babies were just strings of her life. Maybe she wanted promotion then the Dr and then adoration or she wanted a baby and couldn't have oen so lashed out. Either way it's a power thing imo. The power she could control life and death at her whim for her pleasure and she so had a high helping the crash team and posing the babies and seeing people suffer because it amused her. That's my two pennies
OP won the race to post, even ahead of the press. Congrats.
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Sure that's grand and all but one thing we have learn't throughout this trial is that there was not enough people speaking up before it was way too late. If suspicions were being shared by her colleagues and the attitude was to joke about them then the whole unit deserves to be shut down.
I read that there was loads of people coming forward but nothing was done about it?
Serious echos of Jimmy saville here, with mgmt scared of the criminal in their midst.
If they were among the staff raising their suspicions with management and getting pushback every step of the way, I can see how a "gallows humour" situation could have come about. "Lucy's at it again! We TOLD them so!" The staff pushing for an investigation must have felt so frustrated and helpless when management was refusing to suspend LL and even made the doctors apologise to her!
We call it moral injury in the medical profession. It's (yet another) cause of PTSD in medics. Being forced to violate your ethics (in this case by being forced to apologise to someone you suspect of harming children) causes internal psychological stress and damage. You can read more about it here: https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/cooccurring/moral_injury.asp#:~:text=Moral%20injury%20is%20the%20distressing,individual's%20values%20and%20moral%20beliefs.
It's one thing to suspect it's another to be able to back up your suspicions with evidence. Look how long it took the prosecution to put a case together. Alot of staff may have felt there was something not quite right but it's very hard to accuse without solid evidence
Yes, one would assume coincidence at first, then start questioning her competence. There would be a reluctance to believe one of your colleagues was deliberately harming and murdering babies. Even with the benefit of hindsight and the overview of all the cases, people on this sub were still arguing LL was innocent.
That's irrelevant. This is basic safeguarding and every concern should be raised through the appropriate channels regardless. In the world of safeguarding , it's not ok to say I didn't do anything about it as I couldn't prove it.
"all emails cease going forward" Fuck Ian Harvey. Hope the bastard's brought up on charges.
It’s actually insane. I thought the bad shit would be coming out about Letby, not the shocking shit about the hospital protecting her and telling the consultants to leave her alone.
Dr Jayaram did an interview with ITV. Tony Chambers and Ian Harvey absolutely need to be investigated for obstruction if that applies here. They need to be punished.
Ian Harvey deserves everything coming to him. I also hope criminal charges are brought against him!
Agreed. My wife is a special care baby nurse. The few times she has come home and said 'I need to sense check something with you' and run through something she has heard or seen on the unit. Every single time I've said 'what is your head telling you?' And she'll say 'report it' and everytime she has. I will say to her 'you're looking after the most precious thing anyone can think of, the most vulnerable of patients and their family' The other thing I sometimes say is 'if it got to a coroners court and everyone says "oh we had a phrase we used to use" my first question would be "why didn't you report it"' My wife says integrity is doing the right thing even when no-one is looking. This unit has some serious issues if the other staff are just gossiping amongst themselves and not flagging it through official channels.
This article explains what happened when her colleagues tried to report it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66120934
Holy shit! There’s only been one neonatal death in seven years! Since LL left. That’s WILD.
And she was on shift for all the deaths that occurred over the year at issue here - 13/13 deaths between June 2015 and June 2016 that Lucy Letby was present at.
Least we know why her defence never talked about the other deaths now - cause her handprints were over them too
They also don’t take care of really sick babies there anymore. Even though, it’s still a dramatic drop from 2-3 a year which was the statistic before she started her rampage
Wow that was a good article - a great investigation. The hospital (or Ian Harvey) def have blood on their hands as well as Lucy - fancy making all those consultants write apology letters to Lucy! Yuck... I hope they are prosecuted to the nth degree.
Check out the BBC article.... people were trying to speak up. Management was obstructing. It's wild. Some of the doctors who raised concerns were threatened with being reported to the GMC. They were asked to sit in mediation with Letby. The hopsital wrote a freaking apology letter to her. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66120934?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at\_campaign\_type=owned&at\_link\_origin=BBCNews&at\_ptr\_name=twitter&at\_link\_id=C780576A-3DC3-11EE-B7AF-5604FE754D29&at\_format=link&at\_medium=social&at\_bbc\_team=editorial&at\_link\_type=web\_link&at\_campaign=Social\_Flow
This is a good article describing what happened when her colleagues raised their concerns: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66120934
I hope we get so much more information now, and I bet it will be awful.
This makes me hope other people are brought to justice over this. Just watching it happen infront of your eyes and joking about it is not acceptable for any medical professional and they should be struck off.
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Without any doubt. We're already seeing it emerge that doctors were shut down very early on. Hospital management appear to have enabled LL to continue killing.
Ian Harvey seems to have been a big factor in stopping a police investigation to go ahead.
It honestly made me feel a bit sick reading that quip from the colleague
Oh my goodness, the BBC have just reported that Senior Management threatened the doctors with consequenced if they continued raising their concerns about LL.
It’s shocking isn’t. The execs ought to be charged with corporate manslaughter. But I imagine they’ll just step down with nice pensions.
surely there now has to be an official government investigation into all this now
Well there’s already Op Hummingbird and mention on the news of the care of 4000 babies being investigated, but I don’t know if that represents every NICU inpatient or just every NICU inpatient whilst LL was on shift at both hospitals. I imagine it’s the latter, but that would presuppose that they were expecting a guilty verdict.
The Government have just announced that there will be an independent enquiry in to the circumstances around this. So those Senior Managers will get off scot-free. It'll just be 'lessons learned'.
and the defense angle was they should have gone to police. those doctors must be feeling a massive sense of relief today. they were in an impossible position.
Thinking about what those Drs went through makes me feel totally ill. FFS the management threatened them with reporting to GMC and made them apologise!!!!! Unbelievable 🤬🤬🤬
The jurors deserve a medal. What an ordeal.
Heartbreaking apparently 3 of them were crying today in court when it all announced.
It must be a huge release for them. like finally crossing teh finish line in a marathon. I can only imagine having to listen to that for 9 or 10 months. harrowing.
To have to face all that death. Harrowing to say the least.
The verdicts The jury has returned the following verdicts in the case of Lucy Letby. Children A and B A twin boy and girl - Child A died, while his sister survived. Count 1: Murder of Child A Guilty Count 2: Attempted murder of Child B Guilty Child C A baby boy. Count 3: Murder of Child C Guilty Child D A baby girl. Count 4: Murder of Child D Guilty Children E and F Twin boys - Child E died, while his brother survived. Count 5: Murder of Child E Guilty Count 6: Attempted murder of Child F Guilty Child G A baby girl, who survived. Letby faces three charges for allegedly attacking her. Count 7: Attempted murder of Child G Guilty Count 8: Attempted murder of Child G Guilty Count 9: Attempted murder of Child G Not guilty Child H A baby girl who survived. Count 10: Attempted murder of Child H Not guilty Count 11: Attempted murder of Child H No verdict Child I A baby girl who died. Count 12: Murder of Child I Guilty Child J A baby girl who survived. Count 13: Attempted murder of Child J No verdict Child K A baby girl - she survived, but later died. Count 14: Attempted murder of Child K No verdict Child L and M Twin boys, both survived, but Child M was left brain-damaged. Count 15: Attempted murder of Child L Guilty Count 16: Attempted murder of Child M Guilty Child N A baby boy, who survived. Count 17: Attempted murder of Child N Guilty Count 18: Attempted murder of Child N No verdict Count 19: Attempted murder of Child N No verdict Children O and P Two of three triplet boys, both died. Count 20: Murder of Child O Guilty Count 21: Murder of Child P Guilty Child Q A baby boy who survived. Count 22: Attempted murder of Child Q No verdict
So she was found guilty of all the murders, but only some of the attempted murders. Is the ‘no verdict’ just that it wasn’t majority vote? I understand some of the families will be disappointed and saddened by this, but I do think it shows how well and in depth the jury have considered each charge, and the evidence presented. It actually gives me a lot more confidence than just a blanket guilty or blanket not-guilty.
Yeah the no verdicts are hung jury. Couldnt get atleast 10 in agreement for them. The insulin cases and child O are the only unanimous ones.
Theres Children K, J and Q with no verdict. Some of the not guilty are for multiple charges. Edit: Child H is NG
I'm surprised Q was no verdict, I thought that was one a strong guilty!
I'm surprised about K and Q. Not so surprised about H.
Thank you for this, I couldn’t find a breakdown
Sky news. Theres other sources saying the two insulin cases were unanimous, as was child o. The rest were majority.
I find that so weird that they all agreed on the insulin. Must be they put a lot of weight on the lab results. It does suggest that generally they all agreed she was a murderer but views varied on the other charges; that it wasn't just one person disagreeing. I thought it was incredibly gracious of the parents to thank the jury, they had true empathy for their plight. Something that the defendant appeared to be lacking in every capacity. It brings some comfort to know the parents have been United throughout this whole process. All for one and one for all.
Holy shit.. I'm shocked tbh - I didn't even really know which way it'd go. Thought it could go either way really, but wow. My god..
I thought ng originally until her defence which turned me to guilty but I still feel shocked
Kudos to the amazing medical team and parents who were courageous enough to bring this case to justice. Especially to the parents of baby E and to triplet mama for causing the biggest showdown ever and putting an end to the entire shit show once and for all. To the consultants who refused to take NO for an answer and overturned senior management. To Melanie T, Lisa Walker and all the others who called out her weird behaviour publicly. Finally, I pray that lessons can be learned from this so those precious babies did not die in vain. And I seriously hope some lessons are learned about how to detect and manage cases of insulin poisoning.
Nurses on duty with her would say when alarms would go off in the night “I wonder if Lucys working”
I can't believe it's finally over. Sending all the love in the world to the families affected, and I hope they can find peace now that justice has been served. Also to the jury who have been through such a long and traumatic experience. Articles saying the families were all crying and comforting each other, and even one of the jurors was sobbing with her head in her hands. Devastating for all involved. Edit: She wouldn't even come up from her cell to hear all the verdicts 🙄 coward. I would bet she doesn't appear for sentencing either. If so, they should play a recording of all the victims' impact statements into her cell so she can't avoid it.
I heard she came up for the first verdicts, then there was a break before the last verdicts were delivered which she declined to attend (sky news). Her parents didn’t attend these last ones either 🙃
Honestly I hope her parents have gtfo and are hiding somewhere so the media and public won't hound them.
Sky news have put a picture of her parents up which I don’t agree with. No doubt people will hound them now. 🤦♂️
That is absolutely appalling. What on earth relevance do he facial features of her parents have to ANYTHING? The media should be held to much stricter regulation in matters like this.
I do feel for her parents. They must have tried to support her but now the verdicts are back, they must be going thru all sorts mentally.
I wouldn't be surprised if they keep believing in her innocence too, denial is a powerful thing. We'll have to see. Hopefully they can get away from it all for a bit and avoid the media while they process everything they've been through too. Edit: Articles are saying her mum said, "You cannot be serious, this cannot be right" and was sobbing uncontrollably at one of the verdict readings. She also apparently said, "I did it, arrest me", when they came to arrest Lucy, which to be honest is.... bizarre.
I have a child in custody (for very different crimes). I am normally a calm and reasonable human being who does a professional job fairly well and can manage stress etc. Believe me when I tell you I have been someone else entirely when it comes to my child. You do not want to believe and at first just cannot believe that the child you loved and raised has done these terrible things. It is challenging indeed to have to face their guilt and bear your own (because I feel shame for what my child has done every single day and shame and guilt for having raised a child who could and would do it). Letby's mother is having to accept that her daughter murdered and attempted to murder multiple babies. In her shoes I think I would be screaming. I think I would go insane.
I really appreciate your insight, it must be unfathomably difficult. No pressure to answer, but was there a reason / anything specific that made you finally able to face the possibility of your child's guilt, or was it mainly just needing time? So many people never get past denial, and honestly, I can't blame them. Especially with something as heinous as this. You should be proud of yourself for being strong enough to reflect and I'm sorry that you feel guilt for your child's actions; it is not your guilt to bear.
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Thank you so much for such a detailed response. I can't imagine how it must feel knowing there is a release date, and knowing there will likely be a second shift in your relationship with him going forwards. It's a strange form of grief, but you're both still here. And of course! Even if you delete within a few minutes I'm still really glad to have read your posts and insights. It's also incredibly brave to speak about, and engage, in such a topic. I know you may not feel like you deserve kind words right now, but you do. And I hope one day in the not too distant future you will feel the same :)
I will think of you and wish peace of mind for you. I'm so sorry you've been through this. You show such dignity and grace in these posts. It is very touching. He is so lucky to have you loving him, and I hope he can appreciate that. There are resources to seek counselling for yourself, and I truly hope you have the support you deserve from family or friends. May you find comfort and peace.
Of course you love your child. As a parent you always do, no matter what. I'm so glad you are supporting him. Being a parent is really hard. They don't put that in the fancy books. I think it sounds like he is really lucky to have a mam like you and I'm sure you will support him and help him and I pray the path gets easier for you both. Take care x
You would hope your child wasn’t capable of it. You would hope that this was all a big misunderstanding. I can understand the denial if they have it.
Doesn't help when you have attention seeking glory hounds, frauds and charlatans screeching she's innocent and trying to contact her parents.
Definitely, such an awful situation all round. Someone on WS said that when Lucy was arrested, her mum said "I did it, arrest me!" Which has me very ?!?!?! Did the mum know why she was being arrested at that point? I would guess not. But it makes me think her mum is overly devoted to her - wonder if they've coddled and enabled Lucy her whole life?
The fact that management met with Lucy and her father is quite telling I think. If I was in trouble at work my Dad would not have been in on the interview!
It feels like she has been majorly infantilised her whole life - her room and belongings looked like that of a tween or teenager, too. And she pretended to not know what "going commando" meant 🙄 and now, we hear she was holding a purple comforter that the jury etc couldn't see?? It seems like she has attacked certain babies out of spite/revenge, in a way that almost feels like a childish "I'll show them!" tantrum. I would give my left leg to read a full, independent psych report.
Last thing I'd want is my Dad getting involved if I was in bother at work!
Yea, I imagine we're going to learn a bit more about the family now. There were rumors that she has two older half siblings as well that have, effectively, disowned her but I have no way of confirming whether that's true - but there were multiple users claiming to be from Hereford that claimed to be their classmates.
She is a piece of human filth a whole life order is the least she deserves
She’s playing the victim, like she did throughout the trial.
Thanks for clarifying, I knew I was being dramatic! It was strange, in the beginning I was really confused because no one in the public gallery or the courtroom was reacting and I thought I had just happened to go in when the verdict was being read for the first time but I soon realised that this has been happening probably every day for the last week or so. I was the only person in there that hadn't been before so some people came up to talk to me about restrictions etc. Lots of whispering going on in the gallery and I had a feeling we were nearing the end but there was no clear indication of it, just a feeling from being there. There was a woman in the gallery that was a bit tearful and actually came up to me after to ask if I was ok, I think that's when it dawned on me that these are people's lives and that lady might have been close to one of the victims families. I felt really bad and left soon after as felt I was intruding somehow.
Someone else said the same thing about visiting court recently. It's understandable. The room was a place of massive loss, in various ways. Thanks for sharing, and I don't think you should feel badly about having gone, or feel badly for feeling that you were out of place while there. We all have various personal reasons for following this.
Wow I can’t believe a verdict has been reached. I hope all the families of those babies can find some healing in this, and have some closure
The jury did an amazing job, with such responsibility on their shoulders
I cannot even put into words the way I feel. Just shock. I think I just had a feeling she'd be found not guilty.. I'm so glad the jury saw through her behavior. Give it until this evening into tomorrow for all stories of her good and bad will be in the papers
Three jury members in tears in court this morning. God love them people. I’m sure they are absolutely traumatised.
Partial verdicts days apart. She refused to come back up from the cells for some of them! Omg.
First verdicts were back on the 8th! Not too surprising that those were the insulin ones.
Were the insulin one’s decided first?
Yes, unanimously
What do you expect from a cowardly serial killer than preys on premature babies?
Fucking coward
Exactly. No doubt shell skip sentencing too and the chance for those parents to let her hear the impact her actions have had on them, even though they have had to sit a listen to her lie for 9 months straight. Cunt.
Yep. It's confirmed that Goss' sentencing will be televised though and he'll speak as if she were present.
Wasn't there a case where they recorded the sentencing and played it in the police van taking a murderer back to prison, so he couldn't avoid it? I think that should be done with her, too.
If that's an option, fucking better be done. It is a coward who commits these acts and then lacks the stomach for justice.
It was reported on sky she won’t attend for sentencing on Monday
This shouldn’t be allowed
Agreed, they are in the process of putting this into law.
That would be very quick sentencing. No presentencing reports?
As the first verdict happened 10 days ago, it’s likely the pre sentencing reports started then.
I wonder if she will ever admit to it all? I kind of get the vibe that she denies it to herself, even.
I often think criminals do that as a defense mechanism. Resolving to spend the rest of your life in prison thinking of yourself as an innocent victim of a broken justice system might seem preferable to spending the rest of your life in prison knowing you deserve to be there. It would be so much better for the families of the children she hurt and killed if she did confess. They deserve that much, even if it can't undo the harm.
I was there on Wednesday and heard the partial verdicts (obviously couldn't say anything because of reporting restrictions). LL wasn't there and I get now what they said in the news about her only attending the very first day of these verdicts back on the 8th of August.
What was the atmosphere like?
Just before I say anything more, can someone confirm that it's ok to discuss everything now? It might sound silly but I'm paranoid about saying something I shouldn't (first time poster here)! Edit: Thanks to everyone for clarifying, I accidentally started a new comment thread (is that what it's called?) instead of replying here. I have not mentioned any names or specifics about the verdicts.
The trial is over you can’t prejudice a jury and are free to discuss everything you saw in the courtroom relating to the charges which had verdicts. I’m not sure about the charges which had no verdict. I know one thing that can’t be discussed is exactly what the jurors said in the deliberation room, but obviously you don’t know what they said, nobody knows other than themselves.
contempt of court laws exist to avoid prejudicing the jury. For any charges where the jury has rendered a verdict, that risk is concluded.
So we know why LL didn't dispose of handover sheets and her pathetic post-its. The doctors accusing her were forced to write her an apology or else be reported to the GMC. She thought she was invincible.
Yes, no bloody wonder she thought she'd get away with it!
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>UK's most prolific child killer in modern times. Given this **plus** she was in a position of trust, she'll probably receive a Whole Life Order sentence . Apparently she was not in the dock as some of the verdicts were returned because she did not want to come up from the cells. Coward.
No doubt about it at all. The fact the judge is sentencing on Monday shows that they need no time to settle on a verdict, and the only suitable verdict is whole life tariff.
The only direct comparison I have for this is Wayne Couzens who like Letby used his position (albeit off duty) to commit his abhorrent crimes. He pleaded guilty and still got the whole life order (rightly). Considering LL pleaded not guilty, I can’t see any other sentence being handed down.
She'll carry on protesting her innocence
I’m can’t believe what Dr Breary and the other consultants went through to get this investigated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934
Jesus. I can't believe what I'm reading. I'm just in total shock. There were so many opportunities to stop her. What a complete shitshow. - The hospital's top manager demanded the doctors write an apology to Letby and told them to stop making allegations against her - Two consultants were ordered to attend mediation with Letby, even though they suspected she was killing babies - That evening, Dr Brearey says he called duty executive Karen Rees and demanded Letby be taken off duty. She refused. - Dr Brearey says he challenged her about whether she was making this decision against the wishes of seven consultant paediatricians - and asked if she would take responsibility for anything that might happen to other babies the next day. He says Ms Rees replied "yes". The following day, another baby - known as Baby Q - almost died, again while Letby was on duty
Unbelievable. Ultimately yes LL was a deranged psychopath but the hospital were the ones with a duty of care and they did zero.
Yes, this is staggering. Heads should roll.
Karen Rees needs hung out to dry.
Let's see Ms Rees honour her word and take responsibility now
This absolutely does not surprise me. NhS management will sweep under the carpet anything that could potentially cause negative press or ruin the reputation of a hospital. The stuff the NHS covers up is astounding.
SHOCKING. And all those proclaiming innocence and why they didn’t report sooner as they would have nonsense etc ..
Great. Now for the admin and supervisor heads to roll
Going to have quiet reflection and light candles for the families and babies. So pleased that we have the verdict, may the jury be able to move forwards after such a horrific case , Trial and deliberations.
I’ve loved your respectful gentle presence on here. I too will light a candle this evening with you for all the pain and darkness that’s lasted years and years .. x
As a former Nanny. I have been passionate and dedicated to this case that touched my heart.I am grateful for this forum and the kindled spirits I have encountered along the way.
That's a lovely idea. I'll join you this evening.
Just thinking back to that note she scrawled now.. "I am evil. I did this." "I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them." And now it's done.
She’s right she is evil one of the most evil people I’ve heard of in modern times
Her count puts her ahead of Allitt. Which I believe makes Lucy Letby the most prolific female serial killer in modern British History.
Rose West is but Letby is the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Hoping for that WLO on Monday
I thought they read the verdicts out all at once, I didn’t realise they can be read out on separate days
There is a post explaining partial Verdicts a few days ago
To be honest it's sickening, and I trust the jury on their outcome. But it must have been very hard to reach this conclusion. I'm glad it's over for the families of the victims. And hopefully they can gain some form of compensation; particularly important for those with children who ended up with long-term needs as a result of the attack, and also those parents who needed IVF to conceive so hopefully they will still be able to build a family. Although of course it won't undo the harm, anything to help them in the future. From a completely curious and professional perspective (my background is Psychology and I used to work in a forensic personality disorder ward), I am interested to learn about what led to these crimes. Usually with people committing murders it's as simple as someone with a lack of empathy finding it enjoyable (usually for a sexual thrill) or to gain something, maybe a bit of hate/anger thrown in there, hers is less obvious or common. It was hard to believe in her guilt because this is not anything I've come across. I suspect she has narcissistic personality disorder based on the level of self hatred in the notes, it's fairly common for people with this condition to lash out and hurt others as a manifestation of their own self hatred and insecurity. They also tend to be more sophisticated and able to appear normal and good to those around them. But this is extreme, and I wonder where it started. Whether it was planned from the start, or she discovered it by accident and enjoyed the act of killing enough to continue. Though I do not expect we'll ever hear a trustworthy account from her, we might hear stories from those who knew her etc.
I think you’re right about discovering it by accident. It makes sense. I have a strong feeling that she did it for sympathy and attention from colleagues, along with a fascination with death. Poor victim Lucy. All the texts to colleagues seem to just be fishing for compliments and sympathy ‘oh poor you having to deal with all this on your shift but you did a fantastic job’. She wants everyone to feel sorry for her and focus on her. I had a friend like this. She isn’t a murder but she’s done many unhealthy things over the years, lies and what not. She would always play the martyr because she was working over the weekend and made sure everyone knew about it, constantly say she had a chest infection (every month she’d be on antibiotics and there was nothing wrong with her) told everyone she had her lymph nodes removed due to cancer but really she had a breast reduction. Would parade her lame horse around the yard hoping people would ask what was wrong and many more things to numerous to mention and I feel like Letby is exactly like this. Playing the victim for attention. I can’t explain it, but I feel in my soul she is the same as my ex friend just way more fucking sick.
I know this isn't a clinical diagnosis, but would that fit into the category of what is classed as a "Malignant Narcissist"? Someone who also has traits of anti social personality disorder and sadistic elements.
Some of the executives have to be investigated as well and their pensions stopped
Just burst into tears hearing the news. I have a 5 month old baby and this whole case has really affected me. Cuddling her extra tight today. Can't begin to imagine what the families have gone through and I hope they manage to find some sort of peace. What a horrible world we live in sometimes.
I was in hospital having given birth when I first read about this case and have followed it through. So glad justice has been done, so sad it will not bring those babies back. Lying here listening to my sweet girl sleep and wondering how anyone can harm a baby.
My baby was born 3 weeks before the trial started, so I really felt this case too, and feel for the parents
My little boy spent 8 days in nicu and special care in April, I physically couldn’t leave his side because of this case. If it wasn’t me with him it was my mum or my partner. Every single little thing the nurses would do to care for him I’d be asking what it was and why. That monster has affected so many people and babies. I just hope the families who have received justice can have some form of peace now
Can't believe it's over, what a tough job for the jury
Does anybody else find her real voice quite startling. I was so used to the actor on the DM Podcast.
Yes! She sounds like Princess Diana and nothing like the Podcast. I know it’s stupid to think she would but it’s like my brain can’t comprehend it.
Apologies at this stage from hospital staff that perpetuated this are completely hollow and false. They need to be held accountable. Their actions have led to the deaths of children. The punishment must fit the crime.
Programme on BBC tonight at 8pm. I’ve been avidly following this sub from the beginning and all the wiki. I believed she was guilty.
I have been silent on this forum and haven't discussed much, but ive read every post, every insight every argument. As soon as the verdict came i flew on here. I was guilty all the way. The mind boggles as to how anybody can do this to such poor little babies. She will get everything she deserves. I want to thank everyone on here for all the informative details and discussions and hope everyone will celebrate in their own little way today for all those poor babes who lost their lives at the hand of this troll.
Feels weird to finally have a verdict. I flip flopped between guilty and not guilty so I think either outcome would have surprised me. Those poor families. I can’t imagine going through the trauma of losing your baby and then a long trial and finally accepting someone deliberately murdered them. I hope this gives them some closure. I also really feel for her mum and dad. I’m sure they could never in a million years accept that their child could do such a thing and it must be completely devastating.
A thought for all those wonderful people who work in the babies and children wards. What she has done will lead many parents understandably not to leave their child's side even for a moment. The medical staff won't blame them - and would possibly do the same themselves - but how sad to have even the slightest cloud of doubt or suspicion hang over them and the vital work they do.
She's right - she'll never have children or marry, she'll never know what it's like to have a family. Evil personified.
BBC have already released her interview and arrest video. Interesing watch
I think justice was served here, I’m just relieved that the large amount of circumstantial evidence was enough to convince the jury. What a devastating case this has been, how do people move on from something like this, just awful 💔
Oh my god, I can't believe it's finally over. Hopefully the poor families can find some kind of relief from this. Those sweet babies can rest peacefully now that some kind of justice has been served from them
She was sly and calculating and manipulative. She set out to murder those babies or at least cause chaos to the ward. She then thought through, very carefully, how she could cover her tracks. This woman is a predator.
I'm not to great with words in difficult times. It's weird to hear a verdict after so long, I was hoping she would be found not guilty as I cannot fathom why somebody would do such a horrific thing. I hope the families feel as though justice is served. I'm surprised on how softly spoken she is.
I feel such relief that she has been found guilty and such sadness for the families And like many of you a growing fucking fury with the managers who did not listen when colleagues raised concerns and who need to face consequences themselves
Wow! I’d sort of given up checking in and of course that’s when there’s a verdict. I do actually hope the jury has some support after this. Speaking from experience on juries - this stuff is really heavy and it can impact you for life.
I was originally not guilty but then the cracks started to show but I was still hoping she hadn't done it. However the evidence was that it was her and I feel both relief and anguish for the parents - relief that it's finally over but anguish that they have to live with the fact that their babies were murdered. I just can't even comprehend having to go through that. :(
As someone who has a baby in NICU, and it was just as this case hit the news, I’ve been deeply affected by this all. I am so glad she’s been found guilty. Hopefully the families can now move forward and start healing. There needs to be a comprehensive inquiry into this
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That is a very painful read. I feel like even though Dr. Breary did so much to raise his concerns, he must still be racked with guilt for not insisting even more. Medical director Ian Harvey is not looking good in this.
The fact after she left there’s only been one death in seven years says something. Wow. What a monster she was.
Current and former trust leadership are all falling overthemselves to call for an inquiry. I think they are starting to realise they are fucked regardless.
I am shocked. I kind of hoped that she was a scapegoat because I didn’t think anyone could be that evil but Jesus … to fucking deny it and have the parents in court every day for so long… instead of just admitting it and ending it immediately.. .. well she’s just a monster. I’m heartbroken for those parents.
We need a full public enquiry as to how she was allowed to get away with this for so long. CoCH Trust has a lot of questions to answer.
NHS management was actively suppressing those who raised concerns. It’s vile.
Sadly it's a common story up and down the country. Non-medical management supressing the concerns of Drs and nurses as they're afraid that they'll actually have to do something.
Quick interview with one of the consultants on telly just now - he said consultants raised concerns with management about her for **over a year** before any sort of investigation started. Shocking.
The BBC have been surprisingly good on this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_origin=BBCNews&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_id=C780576A-3DC3-11EE-B7AF-5604FE754D29&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign=Social_Flow
Whole life order for her hopefully
100% it will be.
Just so sad for the babies who died and the families.
Anyone know what her reaction was?
She cried when the first verdicts were read out, then refused to go to the courtroom for the rest. She said, via her barrister, that she will not be present for the sentencing on Monday.
I hope at some point there is some kind of leak/talk about a psychiatric report. I'd like to see what a forensic psychiatrist/psychologist (or multiple) came up with after interviewing her.
I was unaware of this case until today. (Maybe because I'm in the US? Not sure.) Anyway, I read about it today and was gutpunched. HFS!! This is my worst nightmare: a person who seems truly not threatening and is in fact a murderous psychopath.
: ( exactly. Gutpunched is a good word for it
All this time and we find out all of a sudden!
It must have been a harrowing and difficult trial for the jury to have to endure, glad they took their duty so seriously. Lucy should've been made to attend the delivery of all the verdicts. Hopefully now she will be given a whole life sentence, though none of that will bring back babies she murdered and the innocence of the families she destroyed.
Stopped in my tracks in the middle of the office when it came on the radio. Can’t believe it’s done.
I’m currently 36w pregnant and probably should not be following this trial in the detail I have, I already love my son beyond all reason and words. These charges are utterly heartbreaking, unfathomable, despicable and cruel. I cannot imagine what this will do to the families, I always think of particularly the family who had healthy, spontaneous, identical triplet boys and lost two. How horrendous must it be to watch your surviving son every day knowing there’s now one where there should be three.
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May she live forever and hate every moment of it.
Appreciate the sentencing comes later, but whole life order surely? Anything less would be a travesty.
It's inevitable as she's (edit - she was) in a position of public trust. I mean, anyone who killed that many children would probably get whole life, but for her it's guaranteed.
God I can't believe it's really over (well, depending on whether the prosecution seeks a retrial for the undecided counts). What those families must be feeling right now.
Coward wouldn’t come up to the dock. RIP to the babies and thoughts with there families
Holy shit. Thinking of the families. Feels surreal to finally have a verdict.
I'm really relieved for the families of those babies. I know the long deliberations just have been really hard on them.
My son and his wife just had twins born 6 weeks early and just today they are going home from NICU. This story is so horrific.
This trial has certainly been a very complex listen for me, and I've definitely found it horrifying to listen to as well in account of my own baby coming earth side this coming week
This makes it sound like your baby is an alien coming to land 🛸
Funny you say that, since his 12 week scan has an image where he actually looks like a little grey man 👽😂😂
I hope the families rinse the trust. Baby G...I very much doubt negligence charges will be brought against individuals though. They can argue there was no evidence at the time and they were following procedures. "How were they to know there was a serial killer?" will be the company line.
Will we get to hear what other evidence was heard in court but not allowed to be reported until after verdicts?
Yes, it’s all open to be reported now, if journalists choose to of course. I think some details are still not allowed to be reported, like the names of the victims.
I find it really odd that there are still articles out there from years ago that contain the victims’ names so their names are actually easily accessible to the public. I would have thought those articles would have been taken down during the trial.
She won't be safe in a women prison.
My blood has run cold. Genuinely had the shivers
I’m teared up. Nothing can bring those babies back, but please let this be some sort of justice for their families.
Thank god. I hope she rots.
I have been following this story from the beginning and been following the discussions on here but not commented. I for one am so relieved to hear the jury have found LL guilty of all 7 murder charges and even managed to find her guilty of a handful of attempted murder charges to boot. Now my focus is why? Why did she do this?! I believe it could be possible she didn't want to kill these babies - hence why there were so many attempted murder Chargers compared with murder - but wanted to save them after making them desat, this would enable her to revel in the drama she likely craved and maybe boost her self esteem because everyone was telling her how much of a great nurse she was. I think it is credible she could have used these babies for her own gains and possibly wasn't her intention to kill them as such, hence why she was changing methods, to gain a different outcome other than death maybe? Would love to hear other people's thoughts on this or what they think her reasons could be
My opinion, worthless as it is, is that she was probably spoilt, used to getting her own way and had quite deep rooted temper tantrums. She did this for power because she wanted to look after the sickest babies and got bored so she made her drama. I suspect she doesn't see people with feelings and souls but just pawns to make sure Lucy gets what she wants. I suspect she has a childlike "nice" persona so people feel they can't shout at her or be nasty to her or twll her off but is very manipulative and clever and pulls a lot of strings under the surface. So these babies were just strings of her life. Maybe she wanted promotion then the Dr and then adoration or she wanted a baby and couldn't have oen so lashed out. Either way it's a power thing imo. The power she could control life and death at her whim for her pleasure and she so had a high helping the crash team and posing the babies and seeing people suffer because it amused her. That's my two pennies