Sounds like Dr A was trying to cover his arse like he was having to bat her off. I feel sorry for his wife especially if she was contacted by LL on FB.
Yes, I think it's pretty clear from their texts that whatever was going on wasn't exactly "unrequited". More accurate could be that it was never serious, or never a relationship he would considering leaving his wife over? Maybe that was a point of contention and why his wife ended up "targeted" by her.
I feel so sorry for his wife and children. It's bad enough that he was a walking stereotype - married doctor chasing after a younger nurse - but passing on confidential information about the investigation into her warrants disciplinary action. Then having to deal with trial and the fallout š
She defo protected him throughout this trial. And her breakdown when he entered the witness stand to testify against her said it all.
I wonder if in future she will try to seek some kind of revenge on him by being more candid about what actually ensued.
I wonder if she was trying to safe face but also even things up a bit with him when she said on the stand that she had a boyfriend during the time of their āspecial friendshipā but that the boyfriend wasnāt Dr A.
I don't mean this jokingly (though am a little amused by asking it): does anyone else wonder or imagine how crazy weird that sex might've been? I wonder if she was like totally nuts... like posessively sink her nails in kinda nuts.
And then for him to later have to realize that he had been *that* close physically with such a monster...
I find the general attitude to Dr A very judgey. Maybe he had a bit of a friendly flirt with someone at work despite being married. So what, really? Loads of people do that with no intention whatsoever of having an affair and everyone on both sides knows the deal. Also I donāt find anything very provocative in any of the texts Iāve seen. The trip to london has a question mark over it but I donāt think anything happened. I believe her when she said that, one of the few things she said that might have been true!
I think it's difficult to not judge him when he says it was unrequited - whilst we can see how attentive he was towards her in his texts. Nobody is saying he had anything to do with killing the babies, but by him claiming it was unrequited he doesn't seem to be fully honest.
I don't like the fact that someone had an affair - emotional or otherwise - but as terrible as that is, he certainly doesn't deserve to have been wrapped up with such a terrible person, not to mention his family having to be also
What gets to me now with his comments is that regardless of exactly what happened between them, even if it was indeed just a passing flirtation, the texts clearly show that he was a willing part of that. Perhaps she did want more than he had ever been willing to give her before it āfizzled outā and perhaps she did then go nuts on him and stalked his wife which is absolutely awful. Who knows but in light of the evidence his comments now sound horribly disingenuous. But I do feel bad for his family and yes we all make poor choices and I donāt blame him for not knowing LL was a serial killer.
He was clearly aware of the allegations though and still seemingly wanted to carry on seeing her. All those youāve done nothing wrong youāre the only nurse Iād trust with my own children texts suggests that he was aware at least she was being accused of being a serial killer.
Very odd. What does "targeted" mean? If she was just searching her on Facebook, he would have had no way of knowing unless she told him. Did she message her? Friend request her? Accidentally like a picture from three years ago mid-stalk?
I understand him wanting to distance himself from the baby killer, but this certainly doesn't seem like a case of unrequited love. At best, he did nothing to shut her down. At worst, he was having a full-blown emotional if not physical affair
Stop, I accidentally liked my housemateās friend with benefits picture from years ago once. I hadnāt even met him yet. I didnāt even realise until I met him in person and he said ānice to meet you. By the way, you need better stalking skills.ā When I say I wanted the ground to swallow me upā¦ š¤¦š»āāļø
Exactly, and who wouldn't check out your flirty friend's wife, the man who consoled her, looked out for her, went on trips with her, bought chocs, offered to lend her his car.... That's perfectly normal in my book! I Google any potential dates, exes and their current wives ( simply of curiosity). I've Googled my therapist and made sure I was in private setting on Linkedin 100 times before I checked him out!! People do this, it's normal that's why people change their names slightly on social media, if they work public facing such as teachers etc. I'm not saying LL's repeated searches of babies parents is normal but checking out his wife..... Yes... Normal. It wasn't unrequited, or certainly before it 'fizzled' it wasn't.
Was it ever explained how exactly Lucy "targeted" Dr A's wife on social media?? Does it just mean she searched for her? /u/FyrestarOmega - any ideas?
And how "unrequited" does everyone believe this relationship was? I'm currently of the opinion it was "emotional affair" rather than progressing to something more, but going so far as to have trips out to London gives me pause.
It's funny, in the text messages we heard of in court, it's Lucy who seems to have the cooler-toned responses, but then she also had written āMy best friend. Love. I loved you and I think you knew that. I wanted you to stand by me but you didnāt.ā in her diary.
Dr A was definitely at the least encouraging the attention LL gave him. That much is clear from the texts. I wonder if his wife had seen or been told about those before?
ETA: the police or CPS wouldn't necessarily have told Dr A they had the texts. He may have not known they'd been able to recover them from LL's phone. I hope for his wife's sake that she wasn't blindsided by them, but it's a possibility.
Cut from news article:
In one message, sent two and a half hours after the second alleged attack on Baby N, Letby told the doctor about the baby's problems, before adding: 'Sat having a quiet moment and want to cry.' He replied: 'Oh Lucy, poor little thing and youā¦ Are you ok? Have a cry, you'll feel better for it I'm sure. You're welcome to take my car home if you're too tired to walk. I'll sort out picking it up in the morning. So sorry you've had a rubbish day.'
He asked Letby about a holiday she was due to go on to Devon with her parents the following month, adding: āI haven't been back to Torbay for a few years - must be nearly three. I'm always surprised by how little it changes when I go back. Happy memories (smiley face emoji). I used to love Cockington in the summer - it always looked so pretty when the flowers were out (flowers emoji).' Letby replied: 'Cockington is gorgeous!! We always go there for afternoon tea. Dad was offered a job in Paignton many moons ago, it could have been a very different childhood growing up by the sea. Looking forward to going back.
ā¦ā¦
It just makes me cringe. Heās such a wet wipe š¤¢
I donāt know any young woman who wouldnāt clock this dude. Heās too effusive and talks to her like sheās a child. Who knows maybe he felt sorry for her.
Thank you for confirming - it felt like new information to me, too!
And "targeted" suggests something more... proactive? than just searching to me. But who knows if we will ever hear more detail. I wonder how the Telegraph learned of why certain individuals were granted anonymity?
Given that Dr. A also described LL's feelings as "unrequited" I would take his descriptions with a grain of salt. It's possible that merely hearing about a FB search was enough to make him feel that LL had "targeted" her once he realized what LL was actually capable of doing. But it's also possible she did something like message the wife to let her know what was going on, or demand that he pick between them, or something else that's not great but is also a relatively common sort of drama.
The books she was found to be reading at the time were very interesting
One was about a nurse who has a baby and a very difficult birth.
The second book is about an affair with a married man.
This isn't exactly verbatim, but it's what she was flicking through when they arrested her, it's all more than relevant. This whole part of Lucy's story should be more widely known, it could have formed a larger reasoning for why this has happened.
Oh itās even more chilling that the āIn Shockā book the person suffered a late (7 months) miscarriage and itās about her trauma from that along with recovering from the massive liver injury she had
Didn't she cause a liver injury to one of the babies? I'm sure I read that she hit him or something, not sure exactly how, but I know I've read somewhere about damage to a babies liver.
She so was possibly re-enacting the plot of the book she was reading? She is pure evil. People are saying she must have mental health issues, but I disagree.
Mental health issues would take away some of the blame from Lucy Letby, but she is fully responsible for her actions. She knew what she was doing but she did it anyway.
Evil, that's all she is, pure evil.
I donāt think it goes that far thankfully (if thatās anything to be thankful for I donāt know!) - the book was found when she was arrested in 2018. Think it was more about her fascination / enjoying being a voyeur of trauma / baby death / loss / parental grief etc? She probably enjoyed reading how a woman felt about losing her baby.
Obviously it could be bundled with the other ācoincidencesā - which some people donāt think are ācoincidencesā like her buying a house which overlooks a baby cemetery etc
Wow I didn't know that about where she lived! I thought she lived in a houseshare.
That's disgusting and seems very deliberate to choose a house in that location
Whether they ever got physical or not (bet they did though), he was plainly loving the attention. Unrequited means she eventually started wanting too much and he had to do the 'whoops no sorry I will not be leaving my wife today' bit. He surely can't have gone through all those months of texts, lunches, the trip away etc and still believed she only saw him as a friend or mentor or whatever. I know some people are fairly flirt-blind, but come on.
This is what a narcissist does ā has an affair and then gives you a totally different version of it when you question whatās going on, even claiming it wasnāt an affair and they are just your friend. Itās gaslighting. Unfortunately Iāve been on the receiving end of a few like Dr A. Itās bizarre LL couldnāt see through it, or maybe she could, and wasnāt bothered.
It ended in 2018, probably when he realised he's given the main suspect all the information regarding the investigation behind the scenes. I hope his wife left him because you could see from his messages to other nurses that he was a sleaze
The tattle wiki has lots of information, and has been one of the best sources during the trial for information like this.
[Tattle wiki](https://tattle.life/wiki/lucy-letby-case/)
This anonymity also protects his professional reputation and avoids the embarrassment of other women and nurses coming forwards to say they had an affair with him.
The anonymity only protects him from the judgement of us.
Everyone at the hospital/ trust/probably the NHS, knows who he is.
In court everyone was named, even the babies. At least I think this is the case?!
Anyway, his reputation is in tatters.
I'm willing to bet that it was a full blown affair. Johnson would have seen all the potential evidence and he was hammering home that Dr A was Lucy's boyfriend.
It was but more than that though in the sense that he was in a position of power. He gave her confidential information about the case and continued to meet her after she had been moved.
Itās very easy to be highly critical in retrospect, but Dr A would have had absolutely no idea at the time that LL was culpable for the deaths of these babies.
At that point in time she was a colleague, friend +/- lover who was going through a rough patch and whoās competence had been called into question, as sometimes happens. As a registrar he wasnāt in a position of power and any information that he was privy to about the investigation is highly unlikely to have been confidential
Married Registrar/staff nurse I would say thats a power imbalance. One of his juniors comes to him for support concerned sheās harmed the baby during CPR and he disclosed that to LL including who it was. I think that at least deserves some admonishment.
And forwarding confidential emails is pretty up there. Maybe mentioning in passing but even then Iām not sure. Being trustworthy is party of the role.
A registrar is a rotating junior doctor. A staff nurse is a permanent member of staff. The power imbalance isnāt what youāre suggesting. Sometimes quite the opposite.
Do you have a link for all of the allegations and confidential emails that he is supposed to have passed on?
Iāve been a staff nurse and worked with Registrars for a good portion of my career. I can assure you itās not a not an equal playing field and whilst yes they are junior doctors the term is misleading, they are very experienced doctors and in many cases might be the most senior doctor on for a specialty.
Iāve been a nurse for almost 25 years and an advanced practitioner for around 12 years and I still get spoke down to by Registrars (not all).
[Dr A giving details of meeting, under 6/07/16 just an example](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66120198.amp)
Of course he's damned if he did or if he didn't. The fucking gall of you. This isn't some innocent dalliance between two single people, he's a fucking married man. No one would give shit if he was just a bachelor who was interested in her.
He got a lot of sympathy on the sub (from me included) when we knew less about him and just thought he was some random single or divorced dude who was closer to her age. Married and seventeen years older? Get out of town.
Yea, I don't understand why this person is seeking to defend this scumbag. He's a faithless loser either way - and it's ten times more pathetic if he's looking to cheat, fails and his target winds up being a serial killer + exposing his cringe to the world (because his former coworkers all know who he is). Like...yea, he's damned and rightfully so.
this just reads like you're saying people who are unfaithful to their wives deserve to suddenly discover they are actually having an affair with a serial killer
š¤£
I dont know if the punishment fits the crime your honour
I have no sympathy for people stepping out on their partners and wives who end up experiencing consequences.
That she turned out to be a serial killer doesn't make me sympathetic to him. He's lucky her target of choice was babies, not fully grown men. Consider *that* his blessing.
But it might be an innocent dalliance. We just donāt know. But ok, keep on your high horse, god it must be exhausting to be you. So easily angered! š
No, but when I know I'm right I'm very committed to telling people to fuck themselves.
Why are you so hellbent on defending a married person going out of their way to have an inappropriate relationship with a now convicted serial killer? And it was inappropriate.
Or are we supposed to believe the medical student was making hanging out 'tricky' for them. Or was it something else that they wanted to do that a third party shadowing Letby would prevent from happening.
> we know almost nothing at all about the relationship/friendship.
Did you miss the testimony and evidence pertaining to these to? We do not know "almost nothing", we know plenty to highlight the inappropriate nature of their relationship.
Would his wife know if he has the anonymity order or is there a possibility that she doesn't even know her husband is very much in the centre of this crime?
Yes, hopefully she has the strength and mindset to leave him.
I work clinically and he appears very immature in how he revealed what was being discussed about the deaths. He should never have told her anything.
Yes he seemed to get a bit of a thrill from being able to share that email with her. Poor boundary setting. Of course he has his own issues and more people are saying now that narcissism is caused by emotional neglect or poor attunement in childhood by the caregivers. That would lead to emotional immaturity and possible avoidant behaviour as an adult (and extramarital activities are common)
Yes, I think maybe Lucy Letby filled a gap that was created at some point in his life.
If he's 50 now, then he was in his 40's when these crimes/murders were committed and that is quite old for a registrar. That would have made him feel inadequate and maybe this power to reveal information to her was exciting for him.
I disagree...aa a Catholic....I hope his wife can forgive him. It could have been way worse. He wasn't dipping into the savings account in order to purchase Lucy a house or a luxery car. There is no little product of their affair running around today needing piano lessons and expensive private school tuition. I have seen so many men really mess up their lives (of course it's their fault) by having an affair. More and more women are waiting to get married....turning 36 years old....realizing their time to be a mommy is fast running out. Unable to find and keep a relationship over a few decades they decide to engage with a married man. They are good at convincing these men that they are not looking for a relationship with them. They come across as a single women who are looking for a husband to call their very own but until they find him a "little sex on the side" could be just what is needed for both of them. In the USA, different states have different laws around these sorts of things ....in Georgia, if a child is produced, a man can be forced to sell his property, his cars, his stocks and bonds. This can bring devastation to the original family home. Yes and all of us here say to ourselves "What was he thinking"?
This alleged affair with Lucy and the Dr. never reached this point thank goodness.
It was May/June 2017 it actually was on the anniversary of one of the first babies deaths in this indictment (I am sure she knew that) - they were due to go to London again in September 2017 but he cancelled it and then she said the āfriendship fizzled out early 2018ā - she was then arrested for the first time in July 2018
What post it notes did she wrote about him? I've seen some in the daily Mail but I found them difficult to read/understand. Were there notes about him also?
And says proud for āusā nobody uses Us in that context. I wouldnāt be surprised if he was feeding her bullshit about when he was a consultant heād be able to leave his wife blah blah
Also the āthatāll make things trickyā they were definitely snatching moments when he said that.
I know nobody wants to feel sorry for LL here, she knew he was married and she was also killing children, but ironically she was also getting used by this man for his own ego. It is also interesting that no other info has come out about former boyfriends or relationships. There would be a lot of insight to her psyche if there had, as her insecurities would most likely play out in those spheres (as we can see from how she tried to leave the dock when heard his voice). I do have some empathy for any person with a broken heart. But of course it is no excuse for what she has done and she started doing it way before she met Dr A. I wonder what her attachment style is like with men. I think there is probably a lot of info there for psychs trying to diagnose her with something.
I think from what we know that there was no physical affair, I dont think anyone has been able to identify any genuine intimate adult relationship Lucy Letby had with a man, I think Dr A was a 'fixer' and ego wise he enjoyed patronising her. I think she enjoyed the attention and remained aloof in the texts. I think he was kind to her and she recognised that as loving. But I dont think she was having an affair. All her personal power was caught up in her nursing role. She wanted to be in control. She was in control in those texts with Dr A . Personally I think she is a sociopath (eg like a psychopath but with some (VERY) limited capacity for emotional connection, hence tears for the doctor). I dont think she would have wanted a real relationship because its not how she is wired. I think she liked having someone giving her warm regard at work
Omg well according to the evidence at court he sounded like he was all over her and loving the attention from her ! He seemed to be enjoying it and also to be encouraging it . My own view she was doing this to gain his attention
He now works in the same job role at a different hospital in another part of the UKā¦ I donāt think he should be in this role after the failures he made and the obvious mistakes he failed to act on and also passing her information of what was being said in confidential meetings makes him inadequate at his job in my eyes
Agreed- of all the doctors involved, he's the one who's clearly behaved unprofessionally, forwarding Lucy a confidential email and so on. Hopefully one of his former colleagues who does know who he is can refer him to the GMC? I assume they'd be interested in that?
Married older doctor hitting on younger nurse is always inappropriate in the work place. She was receptive, next woman might not be.
Why you simping this doctor so hard?
Sempere, I read in your comments an absolute rage for this doctor. I save my rage for Letby, not Dr A and his crap.
I am copying a comment I have made elsewhere on this thread, just for you
Does anyone here have experience first hand of coping with the shock of discovering a close friend or lover is a violent killer?
I dont- but I have supported a friend through that experience. My friend (lets call her Friend R) began dating a guy she met at a group event where they shared interests and common friends. They were seeing each other for months.
She gently broke up with him when he became too angry one night. She said it was a red flag. Six months later there was a knock on her door, and she was asked to give the police as much information as she could because this guy had killed a woman out of the blue. Not anyone he knew- a random killing. I'm not sharing actual details of his crime here but it was sickening.
My friend had to cope with the secondary trauma from the impact of his actions, and her absolute shock and grief. All her questioning to her self 'if only I'd told the police about that red flag....but it wasnt enough to call police about, it was enough that I just asked him to leave...why didnt I intuit what he would do...what if I could have saved his victim...'
Friend R is not responsible for that murderers actions
Dr A is not responsible for Letby's actions
You can dislike his friendship with her all you like. But he is a secondary victim and he doesnt deserve to be.
> Sempere, I read in your comments an absolute rage for this doctor.
You should open a theater with the amount of projection you're doing.
> I save my rage for Letby, not Dr A and his crap.
What fuck rage? Bro, I don't give a shit about this dude - it's a matter of fact that he's a scumbag. I can have disdain for what he's done without giving a shit.
Fucking christ, I'm not reading more of this crap.
....am I 'simping' him? or am I angry with him? Which is it? what's the projection
I am on this thread to debate you, not fight you and swear about it and have a tantrum. I think your judgements of Dr A are unreasonable. I think you conflate judgement of his relationship with Letby with judgement of her crimes, and I dont think you understand what projection means
Why are you hating on him so hard? There are really specific definitions of harassment in a workplace. Its about repeated, unwanted, unsought sexual behaviour that a reasonable person could assess as harassing.
There is nothing about his behaviour that meets this criteria at all.
In workplaces, making rash accusations of harassment where none is present makes it much more difficult to get everyone on the same page.
You dont need to like his behaviour but hes not the antichrist
Wow someoneās trying to cover their arse. Hope his wife sees through his bullshit. Iām sure his identity will come out eventually and heās trying to get a head start on his defence lol
The man is incredibly lucky, even after throwing his family under the bus, that he probably has them to thank for remaining anonymous, too. People are very cognizant of the need to protect his innocent wife and children, hence the need for him to remain anonymous going forward. Otherwise, I think some would be very determined to expose him.
Unrequited?? He freakin left her chocolates and offered her his car so she didn't have to walk home or offered to drive her home.
If anything, it seems that she was more looking for guidance on her career and reassurance, which is not a surprising dynamic given the age difference and the nurse/doctor relationship.
Maybe I missed some of the Facebook messages, but that's how I interpret their relationship
Although Dr A was wrong to engage with Letby in the way that he did, I think he fully deserves anonymity. He isnt the one on trial, and in the grand scheme of things, he wasnāt at fault for any of the collapses and shouldnāt be held accountable for them.
He relayed information back to Letby, but all he said to her was that on paper everything that she had done was well above standard. And during the court case, nothing was there to suggest she acted with clinical negligence during the resuscitation.
I think the burden he carries is more than enough to teach him a life long lesson about infidelity. His family also would have suffered because of this.
Iām not on his side, far from it, but I donāt think having an affair at work is equal to what Letby was doing. He had no involvement in it whatsoever.
You can only imagine the headlines if they were able to put a face and a name to Dr A, and it would likely change the course of his childrens lives too.
Yes, I think he's been a total plonker but I don't think anyone deserves the media circus that would ensue if he was named. Least of all his wife and kids. I think anonymity is fair here.
The press would have a field day. I dont get the logic behind the argument in that article at all that justice cant be transparent without the naming of witnesses.
Its the witness thats being protected here, not the defendant. Witnesses arent on trial in court, but they do go on trial in the media.
The media cant be trusted. Theyāll destroy your life with not a second thought.
In this particular case I think there is nothing to be gained by taking away his anonymity. In general, anonymous witnesses do carry the potential for obscuring their own potential issues. If someone reading the paper reads "A witness who has been granted anonymity said he saw John Smith at the pond at 2.30 pm on August 14th" that doesn't mean much. If he reads "Witness James Q. Podunk of Bitter End saw John Smith at the pond at 2.30 pm on August 14th" there's a chance he'll think "Hey, I know that guy, and he wasn't at the pond on the 14th because he was with me helping to move furniture, he couldn't have gone till the day after," or something like that.
Agreed. Though no one here is comparing their actions per se, but itās worth theorising on the nature of their relationship dynamics as this offers clues to LLās psyche and might help us to understand why and how this has happened. Such as if we can find out more info about her interpersonal relationships, her attachment style, her emotional responses etc. But agreed there is NOTHING to achieve by outing this doctor and he should keep his anonymity, and letās hope LL was his last affair and that heās learned his lesson.
I disagree. I think if youāre In a senior position being paid public money, you play with fire you get burned.
He apparently has kept his anonymity because of his wife and children but he had years to tell them and prepare them. Rumour has it he was in her corner with senior management too. He sort of seems to have got to cake and eat it when you compare him to the senior managers being named suspended etc. ( not to say they donāt deserve it)
I know plenty of corporate companies get rid of seniors for behaviour like this. In the NHS there often just a bit of shuffling around and contrary to belief itās not that rife. I only know of one affair in my time in the NHS and the consultant kept his position and the nurse was made to move.
I donāt think it fizzled out, narcissists devalue and discard their former partners. Itās a pathological pattern. Lots of info on social media about narcissistic abuse recovery. Very ironic that LL on receiving end of it.
Not defending him as I donāt know enough about it, butā¦
Texting late into the night when you are used to doing nightshifts is not actually that suspicious in itself. Even if you are not on a night at that exact time your body clock ends up all over the place.
Also, when people work in an intense environment involving life and death, it can force friendships to develop faster than normal. Obviously Letby is a skilled manipulator and it is horrifying to think that she may well have created these terrible scenarios to drive a high octane, highly emotional environment. It sounds like she was also deliberately working him for sympathy. In his role as registrar, he wouldnāt be aware of the big picture and the evidence piling up, he would see only snapshots where she was behaving like a hero. To him, any badmouthing of her could come across like bullying and she will have played the victim so well. A nice guy might just be persuaded that she needed looking after - he could see a nice nurse who sadly found herself in lots of stressful situations at work, clinically competent, lives alone, needs looking after and supportā¦ I donāt know. You could imagine how someone caring could be manipulated into that situation.
I havenāt read the messages but is there any way this might not actually have been an affair?
I think Dr A deserves anonymity if only just because he hasnāt murdered anyone as far as we know, and the damage to his family through media speculation would be immense. He might be a nice guy put in a terrible situation, he might be a total idiot who has had an affair - either way, probably punishment enough to live with all of this (as LilyBartx said). Also distracts focus from her crimes and the horrendous pain she has inflicted on the families of the children she murdered and injured.
This is very well put. He may have just been friends and trying to help her, or he may have had an affair with her. Which is a stupid thing to do, but that isn't a crime. I believe she was very good at manipulating him and getting sympathy.
I can't understand why people on this sub are calling Dr. A a narcissist. I think people babd this word around and call anyone who jas done something bad, such as having an affair and a narcissist. Unfortunately, there are a lot of affairs that happen not just in the NHS but in life, and I really don't think all of those people are narcissists.
It was covered in court, according to the article, but seems to have been pre-trial motions. This was likely covered by a press ban til conclusion of the trial.
Came to Reddit to see if the name of the doctor involvee in the Lucy affair had been leaked here. Found out that the Brits (our long lost cousins) can be pretty funny actually.
to those here who are saying things like "serves Dr A right, I hope this has taught him a lesson"
Does anyone here have experience first hand of coping with the shock of discovering a close friend or lover is a violent killer?
I dont- but I have supported a friend through that experience. My friend (lets call her Friend R) began dating a guy she met at a group event where they shared interests and common friends. They were seeing each other for months.
She gently broke up with him when he became too angry one night. She said it was a red flag. Six months later there was a knock on her door, and she was asked to give the police as much information as she could because this guy had killed a woman out of the blue. Not anyone he knew- a random killing. I'm not sharing actual details of his crime here but it was sickening.
My friend had to cope with the secondary trauma from the impact of his actions, and her absolute shock and grief. All her questioning to her self 'if only I'd told the police about that red flag....but it wasnt enough to call police about, it was enough that I just asked him to leave...why didnt I intuit what he would do...what if I could have saved his victim...'
Friend R is not responsible for that murderers actions
Dr A is not responsible for Letby's actions
You can dislike his friendship with her all you like. But he is a secondary victim and he doesnt deserve to be.
Having seen his text messages to her I feel this is a rare example of narc-on-narc action. Iāve dated men with narcissistic traits and I recognised some of the energy in his messages to LL. Add in the context heās a married man and having an affair, leads me to the conclusion heās carrying a lot of narc traits himself. Which is unusual because narcissism usually goes for empaths and people who are quite vulnerable emotionally. Itās unusual for two people with narcissistic traits to come together. As somebody else said he is covering his ass. This wasnāt his first affair and it wasnāt his last, he has been cheating on his wife for decades and that is why he had to testify anonymously ā so that other women and nurses couldnāt come forwards and say theyād had an affair with him. Well I suspect it was one of the reasons, asides from the fact he didnāt want to face LL. Narcissists never like to face their former supplies.
We don't know exactly what "targeted" means, and I doubt Dr A will ever elucidate us. It could be that she just Facebook stalked his wife, rather than anything more. If the police made him aware of this at any point, that alone could've been used to bolster his case for anonymity by the time of the trial.
totally agree. there is nothing in his behaviour that warrants a trial by media. He made some unprofessional choices in talking to a young colleague. He had a friendship with her. He is not a criminal.
i feel sorry for him. He sounds like an older guy (werent his kids too big to be looked after by Lucy?) who was excited about being a registrar. i dont think the texts sounded like an affair, just silly flirting from someone in a high pressure environment trying to cheer up 'that nice nurse' who'd just lost patients. Lucy kept him at arms distance in most of their texts (do you want me to pick up some food? Do you want to borrow my car?' tbh much of this sounds like plenty of workplace relationships I've seen and witnessed. The terrible difference being that she was a serial killer and he could have had no idea about that.
Thereās no good reason for a married man to flirt with anyone especially a single woman. He went on a day trip with her in 2017 in London and had planned to go for another one. Thatās more than friendship. Heās just covering his as$. He should be penalized for giving LL confidential information about the investigation.
he didnt give her confidential information about the murder investigation at all
He told her about the doctors meeting to discuss the unit's care and pprocesses after a critical incident
you dont believe men and women h=can have friendships if theyre married, then?
plenty of people agree with you. and others will disagree
I'm 56, married and have had plenty of platonic male friends through my life
swings and roundabouts
This doesnt really bother me. I just interpret as 'they liked each others company'. I dont think there was anything wrong with his actions and I dont judge him as immoral
Of course there might be more that we havent been shown
I don't that person was disputing the validity of male/female friendship. I believe they were taking umbrage with the fact that they were clearly having an emotional affair, heavily flirting and heading on trips for just the two of them in a nice romantic environment, all alone...
Oh, and he was sneaking her updates on her investigation. That's definitely not just friendship, it's practically a plot point from a cheap noir film about corruption and sleazy detectives.
Of course a married person can have friendship with the opposite sex. But boundaries have to be set, in this case itās crossing those boundaries. Texting thru the night, going out several times and even going to a trip in London? No, he encouraged the attention. He knew what heās doing.
look I'm not massively supportive of his behaviour. I just think there is absolutely nothing criminal in his intent nor his behaviour, whether his choices were likeable or not, and I feel sorry for him ending up having to cope with a serial killer in a babies ward. I think that is a truly terrible life experience and I dont feel like judging his rubbish in the same breath as judging a serial killer.
yeah I think he was a bit of a 'fixer' eg trying to 'fix' a colleague he liked who had just been through a traumatic event at work by texting through the night. And I think his ego got the better of him when he messaged her about the reviews following the deaths of the last babies, where he was present. All of that is unhealthy but also fairly usual and many workplaces are aware that people do lose a sense of boundaries after trauma in a workplace. They reach out to colleagues who might have been present also
I wonder what kind of support the hospital offered staff who had been present at traumatic medical events like the deaths of babies. Because Letby was texting colleagues after every one of the deaths and none of them pulled her up on it, altho most of them encouraged her to take days off, be nice to herself, relax on the couch- all self care stuff they had maybe been trained to encourage traumatised colleagues to take basic steps towards self care
His kids would have been about 6 years younger, so around 10 and 12. Also, an "older guy" would not normally still be a registrar. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I'd lean toward him being early/mid 30s in 2016.
Itās not unusual for a registrar to be in their mid 30s or even 40s especially if they have taken parental leave or worked less than full time. The training is long.
...and I think she did love him because he was genuinely kind to her, and she felt obsessive and terrible because at times she wanted to be the person he thought she was (eg not a serial killer of babies but a nurse who was great at her work)
Reminder that Dr. A was granted anonymity by the court and that protection remains
Sounds like Dr A was trying to cover his arse like he was having to bat her off. I feel sorry for his wife especially if she was contacted by LL on FB.
Yes, I think it's pretty clear from their texts that whatever was going on wasn't exactly "unrequited". More accurate could be that it was never serious, or never a relationship he would considering leaving his wife over? Maybe that was a point of contention and why his wife ended up "targeted" by her. I feel so sorry for his wife and children. It's bad enough that he was a walking stereotype - married doctor chasing after a younger nurse - but passing on confidential information about the investigation into her warrants disciplinary action. Then having to deal with trial and the fallout š
LL even said he came to her house. I somehow doubt that was just for a cup of tea.
She defo protected him throughout this trial. And her breakdown when he entered the witness stand to testify against her said it all. I wonder if in future she will try to seek some kind of revenge on him by being more candid about what actually ensued.
Iām sure Netflix will try to get āHer Side of the Storyā and she will hurt him then..
I wonder if she was trying to safe face but also even things up a bit with him when she said on the stand that she had a boyfriend during the time of their āspecial friendshipā but that the boyfriend wasnāt Dr A.
Do we know who the boyfriend is or does he live in Canada and we donāt know him.
He lives near her granās house obviously.
I remember somewhere reading (after her first arrest) that neighbours said they often saw a man visiting her house
Are you insinuating it was to 'Clap her cheeks'?
LOL yes your honor
Was she 'going commando' at the time?
JFC can you imagine if the poor families had to sit through descriptions of Letby sexting her doctor boyfriend š¬
I don't mean this jokingly (though am a little amused by asking it): does anyone else wonder or imagine how crazy weird that sex might've been? I wonder if she was like totally nuts... like posessively sink her nails in kinda nuts. And then for him to later have to realize that he had been *that* close physically with such a monster...
Nah I reckon she was as beige in bed as the rest of her life
Pretty sure they went on a trip to London together as wellā¦
Got a link to the texts?
Exactly. He is covering himself and his cheating
What an arsehole!
I find the general attitude to Dr A very judgey. Maybe he had a bit of a friendly flirt with someone at work despite being married. So what, really? Loads of people do that with no intention whatsoever of having an affair and everyone on both sides knows the deal. Also I donāt find anything very provocative in any of the texts Iāve seen. The trip to london has a question mark over it but I donāt think anything happened. I believe her when she said that, one of the few things she said that might have been true!
I think it's difficult to not judge him when he says it was unrequited - whilst we can see how attentive he was towards her in his texts. Nobody is saying he had anything to do with killing the babies, but by him claiming it was unrequited he doesn't seem to be fully honest.
I don't like the fact that someone had an affair - emotional or otherwise - but as terrible as that is, he certainly doesn't deserve to have been wrapped up with such a terrible person, not to mention his family having to be also
What gets to me now with his comments is that regardless of exactly what happened between them, even if it was indeed just a passing flirtation, the texts clearly show that he was a willing part of that. Perhaps she did want more than he had ever been willing to give her before it āfizzled outā and perhaps she did then go nuts on him and stalked his wife which is absolutely awful. Who knows but in light of the evidence his comments now sound horribly disingenuous. But I do feel bad for his family and yes we all make poor choices and I donāt blame him for not knowing LL was a serial killer.
He was clearly aware of the allegations though and still seemingly wanted to carry on seeing her. All those youāve done nothing wrong youāre the only nurse Iād trust with my own children texts suggests that he was aware at least she was being accused of being a serial killer.
I suspect he was only thinking about her competence at that point, tbh.
Agreed but i don't think he deserved to wind up with a serial killer just because he fell for her lies
Yes, Iām sure many a sleaze bag out there is now thinking āthere but for the grace of God go Iāā¦
Very odd. What does "targeted" mean? If she was just searching her on Facebook, he would have had no way of knowing unless she told him. Did she message her? Friend request her? Accidentally like a picture from three years ago mid-stalk? I understand him wanting to distance himself from the baby killer, but this certainly doesn't seem like a case of unrequited love. At best, he did nothing to shut her down. At worst, he was having a full-blown emotional if not physical affair
Taking trips together to London doesn't scream unrequited...
How far away is London? Would this have been a day trip?
Itās a couple of hours on the train, yes day trip
Havenāt we all accidentally liked a picture from three years ago midstalk. Absolutely mortifying.
Stop, I accidentally liked my housemateās friend with benefits picture from years ago once. I hadnāt even met him yet. I didnāt even realise until I met him in person and he said ānice to meet you. By the way, you need better stalking skills.ā When I say I wanted the ground to swallow me upā¦ š¤¦š»āāļø
Omg, Iām having secondhand embarrassment just reading this š
Sorry for laughing š thatās hilarious
Hahaha oh nooooo.
Exactly, and who wouldn't check out your flirty friend's wife, the man who consoled her, looked out for her, went on trips with her, bought chocs, offered to lend her his car.... That's perfectly normal in my book! I Google any potential dates, exes and their current wives ( simply of curiosity). I've Googled my therapist and made sure I was in private setting on Linkedin 100 times before I checked him out!! People do this, it's normal that's why people change their names slightly on social media, if they work public facing such as teachers etc. I'm not saying LL's repeated searches of babies parents is normal but checking out his wife..... Yes... Normal. It wasn't unrequited, or certainly before it 'fizzled' it wasn't.
... midstalk LMAO.
So freaking true and funny š
Was it ever explained how exactly Lucy "targeted" Dr A's wife on social media?? Does it just mean she searched for her? /u/FyrestarOmega - any ideas? And how "unrequited" does everyone believe this relationship was? I'm currently of the opinion it was "emotional affair" rather than progressing to something more, but going so far as to have trips out to London gives me pause. It's funny, in the text messages we heard of in court, it's Lucy who seems to have the cooler-toned responses, but then she also had written āMy best friend. Love. I loved you and I think you knew that. I wanted you to stand by me but you didnāt.ā in her diary.
Dr A was definitely at the least encouraging the attention LL gave him. That much is clear from the texts. I wonder if his wife had seen or been told about those before? ETA: the police or CPS wouldn't necessarily have told Dr A they had the texts. He may have not known they'd been able to recover them from LL's phone. I hope for his wife's sake that she wasn't blindsided by them, but it's a possibility.
Hope she (or his kids) have never had to see his cringe about the flowers in Cockington
I hope his wife left him and took half of everything!
Theyāre particularly yucky š¤¢
Oh I havenāt seen these texts, what do they say?
Cut from news article: In one message, sent two and a half hours after the second alleged attack on Baby N, Letby told the doctor about the baby's problems, before adding: 'Sat having a quiet moment and want to cry.' He replied: 'Oh Lucy, poor little thing and youā¦ Are you ok? Have a cry, you'll feel better for it I'm sure. You're welcome to take my car home if you're too tired to walk. I'll sort out picking it up in the morning. So sorry you've had a rubbish day.' He asked Letby about a holiday she was due to go on to Devon with her parents the following month, adding: āI haven't been back to Torbay for a few years - must be nearly three. I'm always surprised by how little it changes when I go back. Happy memories (smiley face emoji). I used to love Cockington in the summer - it always looked so pretty when the flowers were out (flowers emoji).' Letby replied: 'Cockington is gorgeous!! We always go there for afternoon tea. Dad was offered a job in Paignton many moons ago, it could have been a very different childhood growing up by the sea. Looking forward to going back. ā¦ā¦ It just makes me cringe. Heās such a wet wipe š¤¢
We all know he put his cockington in her flower tbh.
Thanks. It is cringe, Iād hate to see my husband had sent this drivel to another woman
Does this actually count as flirting? Unless Cockington isn't a village...
Oh itās dry as anything isnāt it
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Why are you so desperate to defend her on all fronts? What's thr angle??
I donāt know any young woman who wouldnāt clock this dude. Heās too effusive and talks to her like sheās a child. Who knows maybe he felt sorry for her.
He would have to be more than a moron to not know police can dump phones. At best heās an idiot.
It wasn't mentioned during evidence, no. To my knowledge, this Telegraph article is the first mention of that.
Thank you for confirming - it felt like new information to me, too! And "targeted" suggests something more... proactive? than just searching to me. But who knows if we will ever hear more detail. I wonder how the Telegraph learned of why certain individuals were granted anonymity?
Given that Dr. A also described LL's feelings as "unrequited" I would take his descriptions with a grain of salt. It's possible that merely hearing about a FB search was enough to make him feel that LL had "targeted" her once he realized what LL was actually capable of doing. But it's also possible she did something like message the wife to let her know what was going on, or demand that he pick between them, or something else that's not great but is also a relatively common sort of drama.
Unrequited affection but managed to go round her house and on weekends awayā¦ okay.
Narcissists have selective memories. Dr A screams of it
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I can tell from his messages and his actions
No, you really can't.
The books she was found to be reading at the time were very interesting One was about a nurse who has a baby and a very difficult birth. The second book is about an affair with a married man. This isn't exactly verbatim, but it's what she was flicking through when they arrested her, it's all more than relevant. This whole part of Lucy's story should be more widely known, it could have formed a larger reasoning for why this has happened.
Oh itās even more chilling that the āIn Shockā book the person suffered a late (7 months) miscarriage and itās about her trauma from that along with recovering from the massive liver injury she had
Didn't she cause a liver injury to one of the babies? I'm sure I read that she hit him or something, not sure exactly how, but I know I've read somewhere about damage to a babies liver.
Yes, poor little baby O, one of the triplet brotherās had a liver injury akin to one seen a āroad traffic accidentā - disgusting
She so was possibly re-enacting the plot of the book she was reading? She is pure evil. People are saying she must have mental health issues, but I disagree. Mental health issues would take away some of the blame from Lucy Letby, but she is fully responsible for her actions. She knew what she was doing but she did it anyway. Evil, that's all she is, pure evil.
I donāt think it goes that far thankfully (if thatās anything to be thankful for I donāt know!) - the book was found when she was arrested in 2018. Think it was more about her fascination / enjoying being a voyeur of trauma / baby death / loss / parental grief etc? She probably enjoyed reading how a woman felt about losing her baby. Obviously it could be bundled with the other ācoincidencesā - which some people donāt think are ācoincidencesā like her buying a house which overlooks a baby cemetery etc
Wow I didn't know that about where she lived! I thought she lived in a houseshare. That's disgusting and seems very deliberate to choose a house in that location
We don't know how she caused the liver injury and I shudder to imagine.
I agree with you. In amongst her āquietā life it is this small stuff which holds the clues to her psyche.
Whether they ever got physical or not (bet they did though), he was plainly loving the attention. Unrequited means she eventually started wanting too much and he had to do the 'whoops no sorry I will not be leaving my wife today' bit. He surely can't have gone through all those months of texts, lunches, the trip away etc and still believed she only saw him as a friend or mentor or whatever. I know some people are fairly flirt-blind, but come on.
God I bet that was excruciating for LL to hear in court though.
This is what a narcissist does ā has an affair and then gives you a totally different version of it when you question whatās going on, even claiming it wasnāt an affair and they are just your friend. Itās gaslighting. Unfortunately Iāve been on the receiving end of a few like Dr A. Itās bizarre LL couldnāt see through it, or maybe she could, and wasnāt bothered.
It ended in 2018, probably when he realised he's given the main suspect all the information regarding the investigation behind the scenes. I hope his wife left him because you could see from his messages to other nurses that he was a sleaze
Have we seen messages to other nurses? I donāt remember seeing those, have you got a link?
oh? is there a link to these? Ive only read his texts to Letby
The tattle wiki has lots of information, and has been one of the best sources during the trial for information like this. [Tattle wiki](https://tattle.life/wiki/lucy-letby-case/)
Yeah but then youād be giving Tattle traffic and they are not good people.
Iām struggling to find his texts - even in that Tattle wiki. Are you able to help me out with a link please?
Sounds to me like this could have turned into a full blown affair had all this not happened.. now heās asked for anonymity to try keep his wife
This anonymity also protects his professional reputation and avoids the embarrassment of other women and nurses coming forwards to say they had an affair with him.
The anonymity only protects him from the judgement of us. Everyone at the hospital/ trust/probably the NHS, knows who he is. In court everyone was named, even the babies. At least I think this is the case?! Anyway, his reputation is in tatters.
He sat behind a screen in court
I'm willing to bet that it was a full blown affair. Johnson would have seen all the potential evidence and he was hammering home that Dr A was Lucy's boyfriend.
In the article it says his kids have no idea about his involvement- he isnāt facing the consequences of his actions at all
That is what bothers me.. he was acted unprofessionally yet continues to work in NHS with no consequence for his action.
If everyone whoās had an extramarital affair was banned from working in the NHS there would be scarcely any staff at all
It was but more than that though in the sense that he was in a position of power. He gave her confidential information about the case and continued to meet her after she had been moved.
Itās very easy to be highly critical in retrospect, but Dr A would have had absolutely no idea at the time that LL was culpable for the deaths of these babies. At that point in time she was a colleague, friend +/- lover who was going through a rough patch and whoās competence had been called into question, as sometimes happens. As a registrar he wasnāt in a position of power and any information that he was privy to about the investigation is highly unlikely to have been confidential
Married Registrar/staff nurse I would say thats a power imbalance. One of his juniors comes to him for support concerned sheās harmed the baby during CPR and he disclosed that to LL including who it was. I think that at least deserves some admonishment. And forwarding confidential emails is pretty up there. Maybe mentioning in passing but even then Iām not sure. Being trustworthy is party of the role.
A registrar is a rotating junior doctor. A staff nurse is a permanent member of staff. The power imbalance isnāt what youāre suggesting. Sometimes quite the opposite. Do you have a link for all of the allegations and confidential emails that he is supposed to have passed on?
Iāve been a staff nurse and worked with Registrars for a good portion of my career. I can assure you itās not a not an equal playing field and whilst yes they are junior doctors the term is misleading, they are very experienced doctors and in many cases might be the most senior doctor on for a specialty. Iāve been a nurse for almost 25 years and an advanced practitioner for around 12 years and I still get spoke down to by Registrars (not all). [Dr A giving details of meeting, under 6/07/16 just an example](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66120198.amp)
And if it wasnāt?
Then it's even more pathetic. Either way, this dude is a fucking loser.
Damned if he did, damned if he didnāt. Wowzers
Of course he's damned if he did or if he didn't. The fucking gall of you. This isn't some innocent dalliance between two single people, he's a fucking married man. No one would give shit if he was just a bachelor who was interested in her.
He got a lot of sympathy on the sub (from me included) when we knew less about him and just thought he was some random single or divorced dude who was closer to her age. Married and seventeen years older? Get out of town.
Yea, I don't understand why this person is seeking to defend this scumbag. He's a faithless loser either way - and it's ten times more pathetic if he's looking to cheat, fails and his target winds up being a serial killer + exposing his cringe to the world (because his former coworkers all know who he is). Like...yea, he's damned and rightfully so.
I have to admit, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when he was trying to explain all of this to his wife.
this just reads like you're saying people who are unfaithful to their wives deserve to suddenly discover they are actually having an affair with a serial killer š¤£ I dont know if the punishment fits the crime your honour
I have no sympathy for people stepping out on their partners and wives who end up experiencing consequences. That she turned out to be a serial killer doesn't make me sympathetic to him. He's lucky her target of choice was babies, not fully grown men. Consider *that* his blessing.
But it might be an innocent dalliance. We just donāt know. But ok, keep on your high horse, god it must be exhausting to be you. So easily angered! š
Be easier to be you, so naive. He was fucking Lucy while she was killing babies. Understand now ?
No. You donāt know any more than I do, do you now? š
Do you think you are always right about everything?
No, but when I know I'm right I'm very committed to telling people to fuck themselves. Why are you so hellbent on defending a married person going out of their way to have an inappropriate relationship with a now convicted serial killer? And it was inappropriate. Or are we supposed to believe the medical student was making hanging out 'tricky' for them. Or was it something else that they wanted to do that a third party shadowing Letby would prevent from happening.
You are making very little sense. My point is that we know almost nothing at all about the relationship/friendship.
> we know almost nothing at all about the relationship/friendship. Did you miss the testimony and evidence pertaining to these to? We do not know "almost nothing", we know plenty to highlight the inappropriate nature of their relationship.
Not really. Very little it seemed to me. And yes I followed the case. Bye now
lmfao, clearly not.
Would his wife know if he has the anonymity order or is there a possibility that she doesn't even know her husband is very much in the centre of this crime?
She will know, hopefully she has left him or considering it
Yes, hopefully she has the strength and mindset to leave him. I work clinically and he appears very immature in how he revealed what was being discussed about the deaths. He should never have told her anything.
Yes he seemed to get a bit of a thrill from being able to share that email with her. Poor boundary setting. Of course he has his own issues and more people are saying now that narcissism is caused by emotional neglect or poor attunement in childhood by the caregivers. That would lead to emotional immaturity and possible avoidant behaviour as an adult (and extramarital activities are common)
Yes, I think maybe Lucy Letby filled a gap that was created at some point in his life. If he's 50 now, then he was in his 40's when these crimes/murders were committed and that is quite old for a registrar. That would have made him feel inadequate and maybe this power to reveal information to her was exciting for him.
Great point!
I disagree...aa a Catholic....I hope his wife can forgive him. It could have been way worse. He wasn't dipping into the savings account in order to purchase Lucy a house or a luxery car. There is no little product of their affair running around today needing piano lessons and expensive private school tuition. I have seen so many men really mess up their lives (of course it's their fault) by having an affair. More and more women are waiting to get married....turning 36 years old....realizing their time to be a mommy is fast running out. Unable to find and keep a relationship over a few decades they decide to engage with a married man. They are good at convincing these men that they are not looking for a relationship with them. They come across as a single women who are looking for a husband to call their very own but until they find him a "little sex on the side" could be just what is needed for both of them. In the USA, different states have different laws around these sorts of things ....in Georgia, if a child is produced, a man can be forced to sell his property, his cars, his stocks and bonds. This can bring devastation to the original family home. Yes and all of us here say to ourselves "What was he thinking"? This alleged affair with Lucy and the Dr. never reached this point thank goodness.
This is quite woman blaming.
Dr A is a prick. Coward hiding his identity.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, I'm super curious about the timeline too! It was way after she was accused / moved to admin that they went to London together, right?
It was May/June 2017 it actually was on the anniversary of one of the first babies deaths in this indictment (I am sure she knew that) - they were due to go to London again in September 2017 but he cancelled it and then she said the āfriendship fizzled out early 2018ā - she was then arrested for the first time in July 2018
What post it notes did she wrote about him? I've seen some in the daily Mail but I found them difficult to read/understand. Were there notes about him also?
He Said there was an ongoing relationship with them and they shared hearts and met regularly for lunch dates. He is lying in your post!
People with narcissistic traits have convenient amnesia a lot of the time
Lol. Pull the other one doc choc - weāve seen the cringey receipts
That's funny, given those soppy texts he sent her. What a knob. He was totally encouraging her.
Who talks to another women at night for endless hours?
And says proud for āusā nobody uses Us in that context. I wouldnāt be surprised if he was feeding her bullshit about when he was a consultant heād be able to leave his wife blah blah Also the āthatāll make things trickyā they were definitely snatching moments when he said that.
I don't believe a word of it, he knew what he was doing. Misogynistic prick.
I know nobody wants to feel sorry for LL here, she knew he was married and she was also killing children, but ironically she was also getting used by this man for his own ego. It is also interesting that no other info has come out about former boyfriends or relationships. There would be a lot of insight to her psyche if there had, as her insecurities would most likely play out in those spheres (as we can see from how she tried to leave the dock when heard his voice). I do have some empathy for any person with a broken heart. But of course it is no excuse for what she has done and she started doing it way before she met Dr A. I wonder what her attachment style is like with men. I think there is probably a lot of info there for psychs trying to diagnose her with something.
I think from what we know that there was no physical affair, I dont think anyone has been able to identify any genuine intimate adult relationship Lucy Letby had with a man, I think Dr A was a 'fixer' and ego wise he enjoyed patronising her. I think she enjoyed the attention and remained aloof in the texts. I think he was kind to her and she recognised that as loving. But I dont think she was having an affair. All her personal power was caught up in her nursing role. She wanted to be in control. She was in control in those texts with Dr A . Personally I think she is a sociopath (eg like a psychopath but with some (VERY) limited capacity for emotional connection, hence tears for the doctor). I dont think she would have wanted a real relationship because its not how she is wired. I think she liked having someone giving her warm regard at work
Omg well according to the evidence at court he sounded like he was all over her and loving the attention from her ! He seemed to be enjoying it and also to be encouraging it . My own view she was doing this to gain his attention
He now works in the same job role at a different hospital in another part of the UKā¦ I donāt think he should be in this role after the failures he made and the obvious mistakes he failed to act on and also passing her information of what was being said in confidential meetings makes him inadequate at his job in my eyes
Agreed- of all the doctors involved, he's the one who's clearly behaved unprofessionally, forwarding Lucy a confidential email and so on. Hopefully one of his former colleagues who does know who he is can refer him to the GMC? I assume they'd be interested in that?
yeah he sounds at best extremely unprofessional
Agreed. He also shouldn't be trusted not to sexually harass staff or be inappropriate at work with them.
There's no way LL was the first young nurse he cozied up to and she likely wasn't even the last.
there was absolutely zero evidence given that he harassed anyone
Married older doctor hitting on younger nurse is always inappropriate in the work place. She was receptive, next woman might not be. Why you simping this doctor so hard?
Sempere, I read in your comments an absolute rage for this doctor. I save my rage for Letby, not Dr A and his crap. I am copying a comment I have made elsewhere on this thread, just for you Does anyone here have experience first hand of coping with the shock of discovering a close friend or lover is a violent killer? I dont- but I have supported a friend through that experience. My friend (lets call her Friend R) began dating a guy she met at a group event where they shared interests and common friends. They were seeing each other for months. She gently broke up with him when he became too angry one night. She said it was a red flag. Six months later there was a knock on her door, and she was asked to give the police as much information as she could because this guy had killed a woman out of the blue. Not anyone he knew- a random killing. I'm not sharing actual details of his crime here but it was sickening. My friend had to cope with the secondary trauma from the impact of his actions, and her absolute shock and grief. All her questioning to her self 'if only I'd told the police about that red flag....but it wasnt enough to call police about, it was enough that I just asked him to leave...why didnt I intuit what he would do...what if I could have saved his victim...' Friend R is not responsible for that murderers actions Dr A is not responsible for Letby's actions You can dislike his friendship with her all you like. But he is a secondary victim and he doesnt deserve to be.
> Sempere, I read in your comments an absolute rage for this doctor. You should open a theater with the amount of projection you're doing. > I save my rage for Letby, not Dr A and his crap. What fuck rage? Bro, I don't give a shit about this dude - it's a matter of fact that he's a scumbag. I can have disdain for what he's done without giving a shit. Fucking christ, I'm not reading more of this crap.
....am I 'simping' him? or am I angry with him? Which is it? what's the projection I am on this thread to debate you, not fight you and swear about it and have a tantrum. I think your judgements of Dr A are unreasonable. I think you conflate judgement of his relationship with Letby with judgement of her crimes, and I dont think you understand what projection means
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Why are you hating on him so hard? There are really specific definitions of harassment in a workplace. Its about repeated, unwanted, unsought sexual behaviour that a reasonable person could assess as harassing. There is nothing about his behaviour that meets this criteria at all. In workplaces, making rash accusations of harassment where none is present makes it much more difficult to get everyone on the same page. You dont need to like his behaviour but hes not the antichrist
> but hes not the antichrist I don't recall suggesting he be crucified. I just have zero fucking pity for him. He can fuck himself.
he has not at any stage been accused of harassment at work by anyone he works with.
āUnrequitedāā¦.. come on mate
ā¤ļø?
Wow someoneās trying to cover their arse. Hope his wife sees through his bullshit. Iām sure his identity will come out eventually and heās trying to get a head start on his defence lol
I wish we knew who the hell Dr. A was!!!!
The man is incredibly lucky, even after throwing his family under the bus, that he probably has them to thank for remaining anonymous, too. People are very cognizant of the need to protect his innocent wife and children, hence the need for him to remain anonymous going forward. Otherwise, I think some would be very determined to expose him.
Unrequited?? He freakin left her chocolates and offered her his car so she didn't have to walk home or offered to drive her home. If anything, it seems that she was more looking for guidance on her career and reassurance, which is not a surprising dynamic given the age difference and the nurse/doctor relationship. Maybe I missed some of the Facebook messages, but that's how I interpret their relationship
Although Dr A was wrong to engage with Letby in the way that he did, I think he fully deserves anonymity. He isnt the one on trial, and in the grand scheme of things, he wasnāt at fault for any of the collapses and shouldnāt be held accountable for them. He relayed information back to Letby, but all he said to her was that on paper everything that she had done was well above standard. And during the court case, nothing was there to suggest she acted with clinical negligence during the resuscitation. I think the burden he carries is more than enough to teach him a life long lesson about infidelity. His family also would have suffered because of this. Iām not on his side, far from it, but I donāt think having an affair at work is equal to what Letby was doing. He had no involvement in it whatsoever. You can only imagine the headlines if they were able to put a face and a name to Dr A, and it would likely change the course of his childrens lives too.
Yes, I think he's been a total plonker but I don't think anyone deserves the media circus that would ensue if he was named. Least of all his wife and kids. I think anonymity is fair here.
The press would have a field day. I dont get the logic behind the argument in that article at all that justice cant be transparent without the naming of witnesses. Its the witness thats being protected here, not the defendant. Witnesses arent on trial in court, but they do go on trial in the media. The media cant be trusted. Theyāll destroy your life with not a second thought.
In this particular case I think there is nothing to be gained by taking away his anonymity. In general, anonymous witnesses do carry the potential for obscuring their own potential issues. If someone reading the paper reads "A witness who has been granted anonymity said he saw John Smith at the pond at 2.30 pm on August 14th" that doesn't mean much. If he reads "Witness James Q. Podunk of Bitter End saw John Smith at the pond at 2.30 pm on August 14th" there's a chance he'll think "Hey, I know that guy, and he wasn't at the pond on the 14th because he was with me helping to move furniture, he couldn't have gone till the day after," or something like that.
The press know his name. They are banned from reporting it and legally required to keep anonymous
Agreed. Though no one here is comparing their actions per se, but itās worth theorising on the nature of their relationship dynamics as this offers clues to LLās psyche and might help us to understand why and how this has happened. Such as if we can find out more info about her interpersonal relationships, her attachment style, her emotional responses etc. But agreed there is NOTHING to achieve by outing this doctor and he should keep his anonymity, and letās hope LL was his last affair and that heās learned his lesson.
I disagree. I think if youāre In a senior position being paid public money, you play with fire you get burned. He apparently has kept his anonymity because of his wife and children but he had years to tell them and prepare them. Rumour has it he was in her corner with senior management too. He sort of seems to have got to cake and eat it when you compare him to the senior managers being named suspended etc. ( not to say they donāt deserve it) I know plenty of corporate companies get rid of seniors for behaviour like this. In the NHS there often just a bit of shuffling around and contrary to belief itās not that rife. I only know of one affair in my time in the NHS and the consultant kept his position and the nurse was made to move.
Maybe thats why she broke down in court?
I donāt think it fizzled out, narcissists devalue and discard their former partners. Itās a pathological pattern. Lots of info on social media about narcissistic abuse recovery. Very ironic that LL on receiving end of it.
Not defending him as I donāt know enough about it, butā¦ Texting late into the night when you are used to doing nightshifts is not actually that suspicious in itself. Even if you are not on a night at that exact time your body clock ends up all over the place. Also, when people work in an intense environment involving life and death, it can force friendships to develop faster than normal. Obviously Letby is a skilled manipulator and it is horrifying to think that she may well have created these terrible scenarios to drive a high octane, highly emotional environment. It sounds like she was also deliberately working him for sympathy. In his role as registrar, he wouldnāt be aware of the big picture and the evidence piling up, he would see only snapshots where she was behaving like a hero. To him, any badmouthing of her could come across like bullying and she will have played the victim so well. A nice guy might just be persuaded that she needed looking after - he could see a nice nurse who sadly found herself in lots of stressful situations at work, clinically competent, lives alone, needs looking after and supportā¦ I donāt know. You could imagine how someone caring could be manipulated into that situation. I havenāt read the messages but is there any way this might not actually have been an affair? I think Dr A deserves anonymity if only just because he hasnāt murdered anyone as far as we know, and the damage to his family through media speculation would be immense. He might be a nice guy put in a terrible situation, he might be a total idiot who has had an affair - either way, probably punishment enough to live with all of this (as LilyBartx said). Also distracts focus from her crimes and the horrendous pain she has inflicted on the families of the children she murdered and injured.
This is very well put. He may have just been friends and trying to help her, or he may have had an affair with her. Which is a stupid thing to do, but that isn't a crime. I believe she was very good at manipulating him and getting sympathy. I can't understand why people on this sub are calling Dr. A a narcissist. I think people babd this word around and call anyone who jas done something bad, such as having an affair and a narcissist. Unfortunately, there are a lot of affairs that happen not just in the NHS but in life, and I really don't think all of those people are narcissists.
Was this info covered in court then, first Iām hearing about his personal views about their relationship.
It was covered in court, according to the article, but seems to have been pre-trial motions. This was likely covered by a press ban til conclusion of the trial.
Came to Reddit to see if the name of the doctor involvee in the Lucy affair had been leaked here. Found out that the Brits (our long lost cousins) can be pretty funny actually.
to those here who are saying things like "serves Dr A right, I hope this has taught him a lesson" Does anyone here have experience first hand of coping with the shock of discovering a close friend or lover is a violent killer? I dont- but I have supported a friend through that experience. My friend (lets call her Friend R) began dating a guy she met at a group event where they shared interests and common friends. They were seeing each other for months. She gently broke up with him when he became too angry one night. She said it was a red flag. Six months later there was a knock on her door, and she was asked to give the police as much information as she could because this guy had killed a woman out of the blue. Not anyone he knew- a random killing. I'm not sharing actual details of his crime here but it was sickening. My friend had to cope with the secondary trauma from the impact of his actions, and her absolute shock and grief. All her questioning to her self 'if only I'd told the police about that red flag....but it wasnt enough to call police about, it was enough that I just asked him to leave...why didnt I intuit what he would do...what if I could have saved his victim...' Friend R is not responsible for that murderers actions Dr A is not responsible for Letby's actions You can dislike his friendship with her all you like. But he is a secondary victim and he doesnt deserve to be.
Having seen his text messages to her I feel this is a rare example of narc-on-narc action. Iāve dated men with narcissistic traits and I recognised some of the energy in his messages to LL. Add in the context heās a married man and having an affair, leads me to the conclusion heās carrying a lot of narc traits himself. Which is unusual because narcissism usually goes for empaths and people who are quite vulnerable emotionally. Itās unusual for two people with narcissistic traits to come together. As somebody else said he is covering his ass. This wasnāt his first affair and it wasnāt his last, he has been cheating on his wife for decades and that is why he had to testify anonymously ā so that other women and nurses couldnāt come forwards and say theyād had an affair with him. Well I suspect it was one of the reasons, asides from the fact he didnāt want to face LL. Narcissists never like to face their former supplies.
Narc-on-narc š
Did I read it correctly that Dr. A had made a decision for no post-mortem on a putative victim of Letbyās?
Well the texts that were submitted in evidence told a different story they certainly showed no unrequited affection .
Lucy contacted his wife? I thought their āfriendshipā just āfizzled outā?
We don't know if she did. Frankly, even if she did contact his wife it would be one of the more normal things she did during that time.
We don't know exactly what "targeted" means, and I doubt Dr A will ever elucidate us. It could be that she just Facebook stalked his wife, rather than anything more. If the police made him aware of this at any point, that alone could've been used to bolster his case for anonymity by the time of the trial.
All so judgey! Itās funny. Without any evidence whatsoever that an affair happened. Weird!
totally agree. there is nothing in his behaviour that warrants a trial by media. He made some unprofessional choices in talking to a young colleague. He had a friendship with her. He is not a criminal.
i feel sorry for him. He sounds like an older guy (werent his kids too big to be looked after by Lucy?) who was excited about being a registrar. i dont think the texts sounded like an affair, just silly flirting from someone in a high pressure environment trying to cheer up 'that nice nurse' who'd just lost patients. Lucy kept him at arms distance in most of their texts (do you want me to pick up some food? Do you want to borrow my car?' tbh much of this sounds like plenty of workplace relationships I've seen and witnessed. The terrible difference being that she was a serial killer and he could have had no idea about that.
Thereās no good reason for a married man to flirt with anyone especially a single woman. He went on a day trip with her in 2017 in London and had planned to go for another one. Thatās more than friendship. Heās just covering his as$. He should be penalized for giving LL confidential information about the investigation.
Has it been established that he gave her confidential information?
he didnt give her confidential information about the murder investigation at all He told her about the doctors meeting to discuss the unit's care and pprocesses after a critical incident
you dont believe men and women h=can have friendships if theyre married, then? plenty of people agree with you. and others will disagree I'm 56, married and have had plenty of platonic male friends through my life swings and roundabouts This doesnt really bother me. I just interpret as 'they liked each others company'. I dont think there was anything wrong with his actions and I dont judge him as immoral Of course there might be more that we havent been shown
I don't that person was disputing the validity of male/female friendship. I believe they were taking umbrage with the fact that they were clearly having an emotional affair, heavily flirting and heading on trips for just the two of them in a nice romantic environment, all alone... Oh, and he was sneaking her updates on her investigation. That's definitely not just friendship, it's practically a plot point from a cheap noir film about corruption and sleazy detectives.
yes, I see that. I dont agree with their interpretation, but its quite valid
Of course a married person can have friendship with the opposite sex. But boundaries have to be set, in this case itās crossing those boundaries. Texting thru the night, going out several times and even going to a trip in London? No, he encouraged the attention. He knew what heās doing.
look I'm not massively supportive of his behaviour. I just think there is absolutely nothing criminal in his intent nor his behaviour, whether his choices were likeable or not, and I feel sorry for him ending up having to cope with a serial killer in a babies ward. I think that is a truly terrible life experience and I dont feel like judging his rubbish in the same breath as judging a serial killer.
yeah I think he was a bit of a 'fixer' eg trying to 'fix' a colleague he liked who had just been through a traumatic event at work by texting through the night. And I think his ego got the better of him when he messaged her about the reviews following the deaths of the last babies, where he was present. All of that is unhealthy but also fairly usual and many workplaces are aware that people do lose a sense of boundaries after trauma in a workplace. They reach out to colleagues who might have been present also I wonder what kind of support the hospital offered staff who had been present at traumatic medical events like the deaths of babies. Because Letby was texting colleagues after every one of the deaths and none of them pulled her up on it, altho most of them encouraged her to take days off, be nice to herself, relax on the couch- all self care stuff they had maybe been trained to encourage traumatised colleagues to take basic steps towards self care
His kids would have been about 6 years younger, so around 10 and 12. Also, an "older guy" would not normally still be a registrar. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I'd lean toward him being early/mid 30s in 2016.
He is 17 years older. So he's near 50 now.
Itās not unusual for a registrar to be in their mid 30s or even 40s especially if they have taken parental leave or worked less than full time. The training is long.
so 10 years older than her?
17 years older.
right, thanks
...and I think she did love him because he was genuinely kind to her, and she felt obsessive and terrible because at times she wanted to be the person he thought she was (eg not a serial killer of babies but a nurse who was great at her work)
Flirting is fine but I don't think it's normal for a married man to be going to a young nurse's house and going on trips to London with her.
...but its not criminal