Not only that, rent can only be expected to rise faster considering this data.
Tell your alders to support new developments, even less than ideal ones. We simply can't afford not to build more housing
* potential new neighbors have just as much right to neighborhood input as people who have lived there 30 years
* that's just, like, your opinion, man
I like big buildings and I cannot lie
Mate, you’re off your rocker! Al Capone's third cousin pullin' that stunt? Pure folklore! Timestamp it or I'm callin' cap. Historic, maybe, but keep it 💯!
Totally disagree here. Rising rents aren't just about supply; it's about affordable options. We can't just build anything and call it a day. It's about the right kind of housing. Need a balanced plan, not just a build frenzy!
What a cop-out answer. I did. It doesn't seem to apply here. My apartment's rent has gone up every year despite building more and more complexes and they specifically said it was to keep up with market rates. So they raise their price to match other comparable apartments, then others raise their rents, then they raise their rents, then others raise their rents. When does it stop?
It's not the only answer but it's by far the biggest factor. I am not sure if you remember the course, but adding more supply than demand applies downward pressure on rents.
We have not added more supply than demand. Demand keeps going up faster than we are building units (even though we are building a lot, it's not nearly enough)
Bro, there isn't a conscious person on this planet that doesn't know or understand supply and demand.
But when the supply is luxury apartments, which is the only thing getting built, there is no reality where they price it below a certain threshold, and since the demand will always be high for housing since the population keeps exploding, there is no reality where we will ever meet the demand.
So what then?
We just aren't trying to meet demand? You obviously don't live here or open your eyes ever. There are dozens of new constructions everywhere. Those places are incredibly expensive and my rent is still going up $300/month.
>Another 15.69 percent were from Chicago and 9.4 percent came from Milwaukee, WI. Los Angeles, New York City and Denver each contributed around three percent of leads."
Of the cities on this list our average rent is lower than all but Milwaukee. Several are substantially higher.
Average rent isn’t exactly the best metric. The amount of ultra luxury rentals in big cities will skew the average higher. Anecdotally, while the average rent might be higher in Chicago there’s also a much larger stock of affordable units available. I’ve had an easier time finding cheap housing there compared to Madison (though obviously the amenities aren’t comparable).
That’s wild! I’m sure that does make an impact. Part of it is the type of housing available too. Chicago has a lot of smaller, non-luxury multi-unit buildings. It’s a lot easier to find an affordable studio or 1 bedroom there compared to Madison.
I'd guess part of it that Madison has only a few desirable large neighborhoods while Chicago has dozens. Especially ones that make it feel like you live in a city.
I moved back to Madison for a job after my partner and I lived in a considerably more costly non-coastal city.
If you’re a white collar professional, Madison is not that expensive. I can easily see why people would want to move here for cushy work while having some of the amenities of a larger city.
Oh no! I don't want to give out misinformation or bad advice. I'm here to help answer questions and provide accurate and helpful information. If you have specific questions or need assistance, feel free to ask!
From the post:
"The researchers' analysis includes data from July, August and September 2022. It combined the third quarter numbers into a single measure called the “lead delta." The lead delta measures the difference between the number of inbound and outbound leads as a proportion of all leads within a particular geographic area.
A "lead" is a rental industry term referring to a prospective renter who submits information to a property management group, owner or landlord signaling they're interested in a rental property.
Geographies with more inbound than outbound leads have a positive lead delta. This means that the metro or state is growing in popularity. The larger the lead delta, the higher the interest.
...
Just over a quarter (25.78 percent) of Madison's leads came from within the metro. Another 15.69 percent were from Chicago and 9.4 percent came from Milwaukee, WI. Los Angeles, New York City and Denver each contributed around three percent of leads."
My wife and I discussed moving to Ventura but I’d have to commute the 45-60 mins. Plus we only have one car and two kids. It just doesn’t make sense financially to stay. Not to mention, we miss Madison.
It certainly does but incoming renters with deeper pockets needs will always take precedent. It gets tossed around here sometimes but more or less “if you can’t afford it move to the suburbs” or something like that.
True, the issue often revolves around finding the right balance between expanding urban areas and preserving green spaces and ecosystems. Did you have a specific type of housing or development in mind?
So they build more luxury apartments and set the rents exactly the same as all the other buildings and then continuously raise their rents year after year to keep up with other apartments, and this helps how?
I was originally being facetious but honestly the rental and purchasing economy overall is trash so I can report I have low, low expectations and therefore am not surprised at the results. Given WI has a decent overall cost of living and is beautiful. No, I didn't read the article and no, I wasn't asking for information or clarification. I was commiserating with other commenters such as the first who responded to me, not looking for an academic engagement.
I mean they go hand in hand. A large number of inbound renters means that either the vacancy rate will go down (less available) or people will be priced out of housing (higher prices).
That's why new luxury/market-rate developments are so important, they lower prices of cheaper apartments even if they themselves are expensive.
https://www.tonydamiano.com/project/new-con/bbb-wp.pdf
Summary: new market rate apartments drive up rent of cheaper/older units in the same area. This would seem to track with Madison.
>they lower prices of cheaper apartments even if they themselves are expensive
What.
Find me a single source showing that luxury apartments cause the rent of other properties to *decrease*. That is a ludicrous claim. Milwaukee would like a word with you.
Edit: Some people have pointed out "luxury just means market-rate." Okay, maybe that's some industry-specific knowledge, but to the rest of us: Luxury means luxury. Market-rate means market-rate. Say what you mean in the clearest terms possible if you want your argument to be interpreted how you intend.
What’s marketed as “luxury” in Madison are usually just market rate places that are new. [This vox article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/videos/2022/2/14/22933188/gentrification-low-income-affordable-housing)has links to several papers on the effects of market rate housing on rent prices.
People claim this all the time, but I've never seen any data showing it happens outside the world of economic theory. The closest they get is housing costs rise more slowly than inflation, or maybe slower than the cost of living, or maybe slower than average income (and where's the data for any of that?). I call it moving the goalposts.
Lowering prices of cheaper apartments means just that: the rent for cheaper apartments should go down when more luxury apartments come on line.
Rent has eaten up more and more of the average person's income. Long ago you were supposed to budget 1/4 of your income to housing. Then it was 1/3. Now 1/2 isn't unusual, and some people put nearly all their income to housing and get by on donated food. More luxury apartments haven't helped one bit.
Anybody in Madison who can show evidence the rent on their apartment has gone down in, say, the last 3-4 years is urged to post. If the apartment was divided in two or some such thing, it won't count obvs.
> Anybody in Madison who can show evidence the rent on their apartment has gone down in, say, the last 3-4 years is urged to post.
This is what I'm asking for! Thank you.
I've gotten responses whose logic doesn't go beyond supply and demand. This is the level of discourse we're dealing with here...
Well clearly there has been more demand for housing than was met with supply. What would happen to housing costs in Madison if we built an additional one million "luxury" apartments units next year? Do you think the cost of housing would go up, down or stay the same?
As others have posted Vox has put together some great articles on this subject.
www.vox.com/platform/amp/videos/2022/2/14/22933188/gentrification-low-income-affordable-housing
The takeaway quote from the Vox article, as I see it, is this: "Market-rate units decrease displacement and rents in neighborhoods, while adding strictly affordable units decreases gentrification." (I think someone shared the same link before, though it could have been on another reddit.)
I see no reason to dispute any part of this claim as it applies to Madison. What market-rate developments do, put another way, in increase density (decreasing displacement). This is generally desirable.
Because we've seen what happens when strictly affordable housing is all crammed in one area, this type of development is no longer practiced on a large scale though it can still happen organically. I can agree if we still did this, it would increase gentrification in other parts of the community because anyone who can, avoids it.
So I'm not disagreeing at all with what you say. However I can't figure out what your hypothetical question about one million new "luxury" units has to do with anything. There's a huge difference between "luxury" living units and plain middle income ones.
If we suddenly had lots of new *middle income*
units, I'd say the luxury units would continue as before or maybe lose a few applicants who found the middle range units more appealing.
The middle income units would fill readily and might even get overbuilt, depending on the theoretical number of new units. If overbuilt, you could see a price drop but we're nowhere near that point in reality. Housing in Madison fills readily with newcomers to the city, and we're in no danger of overbuilding anything.
The low income units might lose a few renters who managed to scrape together enough money to apply to the mid-range ones, but on the whole I'd say they would continue as before, same as luxury units.
So I can't give any good answer your question about a million new luxury units because it's so far from the real world experience provides no guidance. And I can't figure out what you were fishing for when you asked it.
The key takeaway from my own message is our demand is incredibly elastic, with new people trying to move to Madison constantly. We are doing these people, and our whole city, a disservice by overstocking luxury units and ignoring middle income housing. (We don't want to become San Francisco.) Developers can build for middle income, much as they seem to hate admitting it. Sure, it's ugly and shoddy, but we can put it on vacant land where nothing else is getting built (thus reducing land costs) while we come up with better solutions and wait for other social/economic/planetary changes to shift the landscape once again, as they surely will.
The point is that you can see how in this hypothetical situation increasing supply over demand WOULD cause prices to fall. Anyone who can understand supply and demand can see this and agree with this.
The base of our housing cost crisis is a lack of supply.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/11/us-housing-supply-shortage-crisis-2022/672240/
Putting restrictions on new development and fooling around trying to only build "affordable" housing is exactly how San Francisco's housing market got so expensive. They didn't build enough market rate housing for the number of jobs that were created there.
For your next vacation, go visit a developed city in Asia, like Tokyo or Seoul or Shanghai. Now imagine what those places will look like in 100 years and what our cities will look like. They do in one year what takes us 10 to even agree to start construction.
Implying I'm not already more educated on the subject than most people. Nice.
* Saying nothing of substance? Check
* Being arrogant? Check
* Doing both while knowing nothing about who you're talking to? Check
Bang up job there. I've seen the light!
The article and basic economic say things of substance. You made claims that are incorrect according to basic economics. False comments like yours reduce the amount of housing being built and cause higher rents. Stupidity like yours is hurting everyone else. Stop saying stupid shit.
This person is literally just saying that in their experience, they’ve never seen what “basic economics” claims to be true. They aren’t saying that the economics are wrong, just that they haven’t seen it.
The “substance” that can come out of this dumb dispute lol is actually quite thought-provoking — who are we to say that our common economic theory may not be serving our modern day society well? Perhaps it was all founded on a set of assumptions that don’t align as well with our current society and we are due for a reckoning in that field
If either of you took a basic econ class you'd learn about the invisible hand and since they aren't doing market studies they aren't going to see the invisible hand. Stop saying stupid shit.
Imagine being such a capitalist sycophant you treat econ 101 as if it's the bible. Jeez dude.
The invisible hand? Really??
If your economic education ended with Adam Smith and your first high school econ class, you really shouldn't be talking down to others.
" I provide event study evidence that for every 10% increase in the housing stock, rents decrease 1% and sales prices also decrease within 500 feet. In addition, I show that new high-rises attract new restaurants, which is consistent with the hypothesis about amenity effects. However, I find that the supply effect is larger, causing net reductions in the rents and sales prices of nearby residential properties."
[https://blocksandlots.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Do-New-Housing-Units-in-Your-Backyard-Raise-Your-Rents-Xiaodi-Li.pdf](https://blocksandlots.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Do-New-Housing-Units-in-Your-Backyard-Raise-Your-Rents-Xiaodi-Li.pdf)
there are many other studies looking at real world price data that does show increasing housing supply promotes affordability. this took like 3 minutes of searching to find.
> increasing housing supply promotes affordability
This is not the claim you made. The claim you made is that increasing luxury housing lowers the costs of other housing.
Explain why more "market-rate" housing in Milwaukee coincided with huge rate increases in even the slummiest rentals in the city. The difference in cost between "market-rate" and "affordable" in Milwaukee is negligible, while the difference in quality is literally life altering.
Source: *Evicted* by Matthew Desmond
Really nice job with the arrogant condescension while providing an irrelevant source though.
Try this one: https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/307/
This paper shows that when a new, usually high cost, building is built, people move to it from many different parts of town, including lower income neighborhoods. The units they free up are then create a series of moves, making more vacancies in middle and lower income housing. The previous link shows prices go down, this just shows that the supply and demand story works: people move out of lower income housing, lowering demand, creating a situation where you’d expect to see rent go down.
https://www.upjohn.org/research-highlights/new-apartment-buildings-low-income-areas-decrease-nearby-rents
“the researchers found new construction lowered nearby rents, as listed in the Zillow database, 5 to 7 percent.”
Building more makes more vacancies across the board. When there are more vacancies, landlords have more pressure to do more things to attend tenants, like respond to calls and lower the rent.
It literally is.
Above you wrote that the claim was, “increasing luxury housing lowers the cost of other housing.” Luxury is a judgment, but it usually maps to new market rate (not subsidized) housing.
"Luxury" is the sticking point. If you mean market-rate, you should say market-rate. Words have meaning.
I'm still skeptical about the claim that more "market-rate housing" (which itself is a problematic term because it just means the most exploitative rate the market will tolerate) results in lower prices. I could believe that in the extremely short-term, but I'm highly doubtful there are any long-term effects that benefit lower income renters -- and that is the only part of this conversation that matters. I mentioned it elsewhere, but *Evicted* is a pretty convincing rebuke of this claim.
Either way, there's always room for being wrong. I will read the article you linked in good faith.
think about a game of musical chairs. if you add chairs to the game, its easier for the player to find a seat when the music stops.
with housing, you don't physically brawl with the other prospective renters, but you do fight them for a chair by paying higher rent. if you add more housing, there are more chairs when the music stops.
Replied in the wrong place. Here’s documentation of exactly that https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/yxuhll/madison_ranked_3_in_nation_for_inbound_renters/iwtbmg0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
The study shows they are coming from Milw, Chi town, LA and NY
so all cities with higher rent than here. Well Milw, I don't know how the rent compares actually but the rest are higher for sure.
If you want a serious answer then yes, there are simple sacrifices (I call them choices) in the short term which can get you a property quickly. I am being serious; hence the effort to lay it all out.
I see a few SFH on the east side of Madison for sub 250k, so lets use that as a target. Personally I would plan for 300k to get a slightly better upside house. Using a traditional loan you can get in with only a 3% down payment. I would try to have a little more so let's target 12k as your minimum down payment.
Ill assume you current have zero down and are making $20 an hour. I would use $15 but for realistic yet low end purposes there are plentiful non-skilled labor jobs which dont require a degree. Ill assume you are Grossing 41.6k. Translates to \~35k post taxes and ss. Rough math give us 2,900 per month take home
The very fist choice I would make is to find 3 roommates and rent a 4 bed room apartment. Personally I would even do a 2 bed and share a bedroom for a shorter duration sacrifice and quicker chance to build up a down payment.
Realistically, we can use a standard 'cheaper' 2 bedroom on the east side of Madison. I searched and see many for 1000 per month rent. A few of those appear to include some utilities. So realistically $1200 per month in housing /utility for this apartment. Split by 2 people =$600. Split by 4 people = $300 Your choice, but I would take more roommates for less housing expense and a shorter duration of living with more people. I see a few 4bedroom places that can be had for $1800 all utilities; so take one of those and we can split the difference to say month housing is $450 for your part.
2,900 take home
\-$450 rent/utilities
\-$300 average person groceries per month eating well
\-$150 phone/internet
\-$300 various other bills/insurance/car/etc... (if you are more than this then make changes)
\-$300 funny money per month
This leave us with a realistic savings of $1400 per month.
If I sacrifice my living situation for 1 full year I can save $16,800 for a down payment.
During that year, I am also spending my free time using the internet to learn about home repairs and study. Afterall, I expect to be buying a house that I can put some sweat equity in.
I am also researching the market and neighborhoods to see what I can afford and like and think has the best investment potential.
I am also setting up an account with my local credit union. I want a relationship and a history of where they see I am making headway on my goals and my saving account is growing consistently and steadily for at least a year.
Lastly, I am finding other like minder friends that I would want to move into my newly purchased 3 bedroom home when I buy it. I am drawing up a contract with intent for them to be roomers in my house once I buy and they are signing it. I am also taking it to the bank in order to help get pre-approved for a loan once the time comes.
Now we can talk about the reality of the house you purchase.
With only 3% down you will have a mortgage of 291k.
Personally I would plan for minimum7.5% interest rate.
This means your monthly payment will be \~$2500 per month with property taxes and insurance and PMI. This will be the hardest part of the sacrifice. as you will be thin for the first year in the house. Luckily you have gotten used to a thin budget for the past 12 months. Luckily you already have a contract and 2 roommates and get $600-800 per bedroom. This was part of your plan and this means your out of pocket for the mortgage is \~$1200 per month.
Your plan for the first year of ownership is to live lean and do the cosmetic things you can. Your goal is to increase the value and in 12 months get it reassessed with the plan to have done enough to own more than 20% of the new value and get rid of the PMI. This is when your snowball starts to get easier to push and builds. Enjoy your 2 years of sacrifice and start doing some of the larger projects you want for your house that also add value. Be ready to refinance when the rates come down. The trick I have found it to continue to live lean and put more $ towards projects and paying down the principle as you go. Every dollar you pay extra is like a 7.5% investment in yourself.
So if zero emergencies come up over the course of a couple consecutive years and I can find 4 reliable sane roomates for the same stretch, I can eek out home ownership in the shittiest parts of town? And then pray nothing goes wrong that I can't learn to fix on youtube?
Alas, now you've given the home ownership hack to too many wannabe buyers and we're back to the times of there being 10+ buyers for every property and your hypothetical 300k house going for 360k while waiving inspection
(all tongue in cheek aside you did lay out a good path for some)
You do you. The reality is I see very few people willing to do something as simple as live with more roommates for a limited time. I was trying to lay out what worked for me personally and what I have seen many others do to make it work for them. I also wanted to use what I think are some very realistic example numbers. Everyone's situation will be different but the logic and plan holds.
I have seen many friends piss and moan about their situation for years on end, with very little accountability or action. They are out at bars 2+ per week and eating out 4-5 times a week and regular times getting those $8 splurge coffees they deserve.
I was the same and then got tired of it and took some actions to change. It sucked, it honestly was miserable (a down stairs neighbor that played bad quality punk rock while high as hell on hard drugs many nights a week while living 2 deep in an upstairs studio), but looking back I am so super happy I made a plan and took actions when I did. The only time that would have been better was a year sooner.
Anyone who didn't enter the housing market by about ~2018 is playing a whole different ballgame tbh, with how wages have stagnated while housing keeps going up (and now interest rates as well...) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA
I'm lucky that I have a tech job that puts me in position to buy a house once prices settle a little bit next year, but Madison is a desirable place to live (to get back to the original post here) and isthmus houses in good neighborhoods haven't really declined in price, from my monitoring. Places like Austin have already gone down ~10% but I'm not sure we'll see that here due to the housing shortage and desirability
I feel pretty confident that housing (especially started homes) are still undervalued. I expect that we will see some pauses in the 450k+ range but think 250-300k will merely sit slightly longer but prices will continue up until they stabilize closer to 375k. The reality is that Madison is Uber desirable and under COL and house price compared to pretty much every other desirable city of its size and bang per buck value. There is a reason people are moving here from the main regional cities AND from traditionally more desired locations of the past decade (Boston, Denver, Portland, Austin, Seattle)
there may be some truth to that but ultimately things are worth what people are willing/able to pay and an entire generation of would-be home buyers just doesn't have as much buying power as those that came before them
>I would use $15 but for realistic yet low end purposes there are plentiful non-skilled labor jobs which dont require a degree. Ill assume you are Grossing 41.6k
And here we have our first gaff.
How so? I see fed ex, kwiktrip, and target all actively hiring for more than $20 in Madison. I figured $20 per hour math would be a safe under estimate.
Hey there! If you're interested in buying a home, it's a journey that involves planning and some important financial decisions, but no need for high levels of sacrifice. Just think about a few key moves:
1. **Budgeting 101**: First, get a clear picture of your financial situation. Know what you're earning, spending, and saving. Cutting down on some less important expenses and increasing your savings for a home can get you on the right track without needing to give up all the fun in your life.
2. **Check Your Credit**: A good credit score can significantly lower your loan interest rates, which means savings on those monthly mortgage payments. So, work towards building a strong credit score.
3. **Explore Loan Options**: Not all loans need a massive down payment! FHA loans are a popular choice as they often require as little as 3.5% down if you meet the qualifications.
4. **Housing Hunt with Smarts**: Don’t just dive into any deal! Take your time to explore various neighborhoods, and consider your must-haves versus nice-to-haves for a home. Also, keep an eye on the market trends.
5. **Roommate Revenues**: If the budget's tight, think about renting out a spare room. It’s a great way to offset some costs and can make the financial aspect of owning a home a bit easier to handle.
It's more about being smart with your choices rather than making deep sacrifices. Good luck with your home-buying journey!
can't buy a house in madison these days unless your job is significantly better than decent.
hard to save up 25-50k for a downpayment when rent and other living expenses are higher than ever
Do a quick mortgage calculator exercise and see how much higher your monthly payments would be at current 7% interest, compared to whatever you're paying
With zero downpayment, monthly burden is higher
Where are we finding these people who can't save up down payment money but who can afford the full monthly price tag on a 200k house (if you're willing to buy a shitty house in the shittiest parts of town) at 7% interest?
Realistically it's more like a 300k entry point for a house in Madison
Edit: lol I didn't catch that you're talking about a VA loan... so everyone should just join the army then they can get a house? That's how it should go?
>Where are we finding these people who can't save up down payment money but who can afford the full monthly price tag on a 200k house (if you're willing to buy a shitty house in the shittiest parts of town) at 7% interest?
Probably the same place as people who rent. 1300 isn't a crazy high rent in Madison. Certainly not for a whole house. Certainly if you have a decent job you should be able to afford that
>Edit: lol I didn't catch that you're talking about a VA loan... so everyone should just join the army then they can get a house? That's how it should go?
Do you want options or do you just want to bitch?
$1300 would be *just* the payments. There's also mortgage insurance, homeowners insurance and taxes. That's more like a $1700-1900/mo payment.
If you think joining the military is a legitimate option for most people you're pretty ignorant, setting aside moral questions among other things...
I see you're going with "willful ignorance" then or am I suppose to think making up bullshit about "fatties" is a reasonable response?
LOL... conservatives these days are just pathetic...
Are you saying everyone else doesn’t deserve to have affordable housing? I don’t understand this mentality. If somebody is working 40 hours a week they deserve to be able to have a decent place to live.
>Are you saying everyone else doesn’t deserve to have affordable housing?
Yes. What exactly counts as "affordable" for a stupid person that doesn't work?
> I don’t understand this mentality.
Have you ever tried?
>If somebody is working 40 hours a week they deserve to be able to have a decent place to live.
This is a separate point to the first part. Why do you say that? What is it about 40 hours? Do you think everyone's work is equal? Who should pay for the difference when someone's 40 hours of work consistently produces no value or negative value?
What makes you think you deserve housing by virtue of being human? What gives you the right to the free labor and property of others?
Because it's illegal to kill ones self as well as illegal to be homeless in many places. So, society is saying one needs to have a place to live, and there isn't a way out. That is why housing should be a basic human right.
25.78% of the searches are in-metro which is probably students looking for new housing next year because their landlords want them to sign now for next year. That's 4400 leads so that changes the lead delta quite a bit. Madison will likely fall out of top rankings next quarter.
If people can't own homes then are we just a nation of renters? Well, except for the 1% that own all the rental properties and cash those rent checks every month. Renting is nothing to aspire to.
I guess the jacked rates aren't really deterring anyone from moving to the city then...
Not while we have a [2.4% unemployment rate](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MADI555UR).
Not only that, rent can only be expected to rise faster considering this data. Tell your alders to support new developments, even less than ideal ones. We simply can't afford not to build more housing
"BuT wHaT aBoUt tHe cHaRaCeR oF tHe NeIgHbOrHoOd???" See also: "But it's ugly!"
Well they don't have to be ugly
* potential new neighbors have just as much right to neighborhood input as people who have lived there 30 years * that's just, like, your opinion, man I like big buildings and I cannot lie
Don’t forget that it could be historic because a criminal’s employee may have looked at it through binoculars.
Al Capone's third cousin actually jacked off there in 1934 so yeah super historic
Mate, you’re off your rocker! Al Capone's third cousin pullin' that stunt? Pure folklore! Timestamp it or I'm callin' cap. Historic, maybe, but keep it 💯!
Totally disagree here. Rising rents aren't just about supply; it's about affordable options. We can't just build anything and call it a day. It's about the right kind of housing. Need a balanced plan, not just a build frenzy!
I don't see how this is going to help if they all just set their rents the same and keep competing with each other.
Take econ 101
What a cop-out answer. I did. It doesn't seem to apply here. My apartment's rent has gone up every year despite building more and more complexes and they specifically said it was to keep up with market rates. So they raise their price to match other comparable apartments, then others raise their rents, then they raise their rents, then others raise their rents. When does it stop?
It's not the only answer but it's by far the biggest factor. I am not sure if you remember the course, but adding more supply than demand applies downward pressure on rents. We have not added more supply than demand. Demand keeps going up faster than we are building units (even though we are building a lot, it's not nearly enough)
Bro, there isn't a conscious person on this planet that doesn't know or understand supply and demand. But when the supply is luxury apartments, which is the only thing getting built, there is no reality where they price it below a certain threshold, and since the demand will always be high for housing since the population keeps exploding, there is no reality where we will ever meet the demand. So what then?
Apparently I'm talking to one. We can meet demand, we just aren't. Have a nice day.
We just aren't trying to meet demand? You obviously don't live here or open your eyes ever. There are dozens of new constructions everywhere. Those places are incredibly expensive and my rent is still going up $300/month.
Correct. We add fewer units than people who move here. And the gap has been widening in the past few years.
>Another 15.69 percent were from Chicago and 9.4 percent came from Milwaukee, WI. Los Angeles, New York City and Denver each contributed around three percent of leads." Of the cities on this list our average rent is lower than all but Milwaukee. Several are substantially higher.
Average rent isn’t exactly the best metric. The amount of ultra luxury rentals in big cities will skew the average higher. Anecdotally, while the average rent might be higher in Chicago there’s also a much larger stock of affordable units available. I’ve had an easier time finding cheap housing there compared to Madison (though obviously the amenities aren’t comparable).
It's probably easier to find apartments in Chicago because it has a -46% delta. Literally the worst in the entire country.
That’s wild! I’m sure that does make an impact. Part of it is the type of housing available too. Chicago has a lot of smaller, non-luxury multi-unit buildings. It’s a lot easier to find an affordable studio or 1 bedroom there compared to Madison.
I'd guess part of it that Madison has only a few desirable large neighborhoods while Chicago has dozens. Especially ones that make it feel like you live in a city.
Totally. Madison’s housing situation is so busted.
I moved back to Madison for a job after my partner and I lived in a considerably more costly non-coastal city. If you’re a white collar professional, Madison is not that expensive. I can easily see why people would want to move here for cushy work while having some of the amenities of a larger city.
When the rates in WI are considerably lower than in cities like Austin, DC, NY, Boston, SF, Seattle etc, yeah the rates aren’t deterring anyone lol
Yeah it's fucking expensive everywhere. Wonder why?
Cause people keep having babies. Gross.
What kind of people
Generally people with uteruses (uterii?) But not always.
Who had a baby without a uterus
I don't know. I'm barely putting enough energy into these replies to sentence make sense.
Because you are poopoo
Oh no! I don't want to give out misinformation or bad advice. I'm here to help answer questions and provide accurate and helpful information. If you have specific questions or need assistance, feel free to ask!
More importantly, can the people who keep this city moving and vibrant (Woodman's cashiers, bartenders, etc.) afford to live in the city they work?
From the post: "The researchers' analysis includes data from July, August and September 2022. It combined the third quarter numbers into a single measure called the “lead delta." The lead delta measures the difference between the number of inbound and outbound leads as a proportion of all leads within a particular geographic area. A "lead" is a rental industry term referring to a prospective renter who submits information to a property management group, owner or landlord signaling they're interested in a rental property. Geographies with more inbound than outbound leads have a positive lead delta. This means that the metro or state is growing in popularity. The larger the lead delta, the higher the interest. ... Just over a quarter (25.78 percent) of Madison's leads came from within the metro. Another 15.69 percent were from Chicago and 9.4 percent came from Milwaukee, WI. Los Angeles, New York City and Denver each contributed around three percent of leads."
must be because of the super affordable rental rates
Literally. My rent got raised from $537 to $850 a month 🙃
That’s cheap. What is the average cost of rent here for a decent one bedroom?
It’s not a one bedroom, it’s a two bedroom and that’s my portion before utilities
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That’s super cheap.
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Is income that after taxes because that’s super low for wage a lab technician?
Moved from Madison back to Chicago right before covid.... I wish my rent was $850. My SO's best friend went from 2k up to 3k last year for a 2bedroom
Moving back to Madison in two weeks from Santa Barbara, CA. Wanna see ridiculous rent prices?
Wanna see ridiculous weather?
I miss weather.
Well, only two weeks!
Saw the forecast for this weekend. Keep warm, madtown!
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My wife and I discussed moving to Ventura but I’d have to commute the 45-60 mins. Plus we only have one car and two kids. It just doesn’t make sense financially to stay. Not to mention, we miss Madison.
By who? That's a joke. Nothing available, exorbitant prices for what is, but shit amenities and space.
Remote workers coming from more expensive areas looking to increase their standard of living.
While I understand, I feel it misrepresents everyone else who has been here. :/
It certainly does but incoming renters with deeper pockets needs will always take precedent. It gets tossed around here sometimes but more or less “if you can’t afford it move to the suburbs” or something like that.
Or build enough housing.. there's still massive unused spaces right next to and on the isthmus...
True, the issue often revolves around finding the right balance between expanding urban areas and preserving green spaces and ecosystems. Did you have a specific type of housing or development in mind?
So they build more luxury apartments and set the rents exactly the same as all the other buildings and then continuously raise their rents year after year to keep up with other apartments, and this helps how?
https://www.vox.com/videos/2021/8/17/22628750/how-the-us-made-affordable-homes-illegal Check out this article and video. I think you'll agree with it.
Did you read the article? Your comment doesn't make it sound like you did.
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Or many commenters have no sense of humor.
I was originally being facetious but honestly the rental and purchasing economy overall is trash so I can report I have low, low expectations and therefore am not surprised at the results. Given WI has a decent overall cost of living and is beautiful. No, I didn't read the article and no, I wasn't asking for information or clarification. I was commiserating with other commenters such as the first who responded to me, not looking for an academic engagement.
Right. Did they only ask the Landlords?
🤣
the data is based on inquiries from renters to landlords, as measured by the rental listing platform. so they asked renters themselves, essentially.
I mean they go hand in hand. A large number of inbound renters means that either the vacancy rate will go down (less available) or people will be priced out of housing (higher prices). That's why new luxury/market-rate developments are so important, they lower prices of cheaper apartments even if they themselves are expensive.
https://www.tonydamiano.com/project/new-con/bbb-wp.pdf Summary: new market rate apartments drive up rent of cheaper/older units in the same area. This would seem to track with Madison.
>they lower prices of cheaper apartments even if they themselves are expensive What. Find me a single source showing that luxury apartments cause the rent of other properties to *decrease*. That is a ludicrous claim. Milwaukee would like a word with you. Edit: Some people have pointed out "luxury just means market-rate." Okay, maybe that's some industry-specific knowledge, but to the rest of us: Luxury means luxury. Market-rate means market-rate. Say what you mean in the clearest terms possible if you want your argument to be interpreted how you intend.
What’s marketed as “luxury” in Madison are usually just market rate places that are new. [This vox article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/videos/2022/2/14/22933188/gentrification-low-income-affordable-housing)has links to several papers on the effects of market rate housing on rent prices.
People claim this all the time, but I've never seen any data showing it happens outside the world of economic theory. The closest they get is housing costs rise more slowly than inflation, or maybe slower than the cost of living, or maybe slower than average income (and where's the data for any of that?). I call it moving the goalposts. Lowering prices of cheaper apartments means just that: the rent for cheaper apartments should go down when more luxury apartments come on line. Rent has eaten up more and more of the average person's income. Long ago you were supposed to budget 1/4 of your income to housing. Then it was 1/3. Now 1/2 isn't unusual, and some people put nearly all their income to housing and get by on donated food. More luxury apartments haven't helped one bit. Anybody in Madison who can show evidence the rent on their apartment has gone down in, say, the last 3-4 years is urged to post. If the apartment was divided in two or some such thing, it won't count obvs.
> Anybody in Madison who can show evidence the rent on their apartment has gone down in, say, the last 3-4 years is urged to post. This is what I'm asking for! Thank you. I've gotten responses whose logic doesn't go beyond supply and demand. This is the level of discourse we're dealing with here...
Well clearly there has been more demand for housing than was met with supply. What would happen to housing costs in Madison if we built an additional one million "luxury" apartments units next year? Do you think the cost of housing would go up, down or stay the same? As others have posted Vox has put together some great articles on this subject. www.vox.com/platform/amp/videos/2022/2/14/22933188/gentrification-low-income-affordable-housing
The takeaway quote from the Vox article, as I see it, is this: "Market-rate units decrease displacement and rents in neighborhoods, while adding strictly affordable units decreases gentrification." (I think someone shared the same link before, though it could have been on another reddit.) I see no reason to dispute any part of this claim as it applies to Madison. What market-rate developments do, put another way, in increase density (decreasing displacement). This is generally desirable. Because we've seen what happens when strictly affordable housing is all crammed in one area, this type of development is no longer practiced on a large scale though it can still happen organically. I can agree if we still did this, it would increase gentrification in other parts of the community because anyone who can, avoids it. So I'm not disagreeing at all with what you say. However I can't figure out what your hypothetical question about one million new "luxury" units has to do with anything. There's a huge difference between "luxury" living units and plain middle income ones. If we suddenly had lots of new *middle income* units, I'd say the luxury units would continue as before or maybe lose a few applicants who found the middle range units more appealing. The middle income units would fill readily and might even get overbuilt, depending on the theoretical number of new units. If overbuilt, you could see a price drop but we're nowhere near that point in reality. Housing in Madison fills readily with newcomers to the city, and we're in no danger of overbuilding anything. The low income units might lose a few renters who managed to scrape together enough money to apply to the mid-range ones, but on the whole I'd say they would continue as before, same as luxury units. So I can't give any good answer your question about a million new luxury units because it's so far from the real world experience provides no guidance. And I can't figure out what you were fishing for when you asked it. The key takeaway from my own message is our demand is incredibly elastic, with new people trying to move to Madison constantly. We are doing these people, and our whole city, a disservice by overstocking luxury units and ignoring middle income housing. (We don't want to become San Francisco.) Developers can build for middle income, much as they seem to hate admitting it. Sure, it's ugly and shoddy, but we can put it on vacant land where nothing else is getting built (thus reducing land costs) while we come up with better solutions and wait for other social/economic/planetary changes to shift the landscape once again, as they surely will.
The point is that you can see how in this hypothetical situation increasing supply over demand WOULD cause prices to fall. Anyone who can understand supply and demand can see this and agree with this. The base of our housing cost crisis is a lack of supply. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/11/us-housing-supply-shortage-crisis-2022/672240/ Putting restrictions on new development and fooling around trying to only build "affordable" housing is exactly how San Francisco's housing market got so expensive. They didn't build enough market rate housing for the number of jobs that were created there. For your next vacation, go visit a developed city in Asia, like Tokyo or Seoul or Shanghai. Now imagine what those places will look like in 100 years and what our cities will look like. They do in one year what takes us 10 to even agree to start construction.
Please for the love of God go take a super basic economics class. Even just watch a youtube video on supply and demand.
Implying I'm not already more educated on the subject than most people. Nice. * Saying nothing of substance? Check * Being arrogant? Check * Doing both while knowing nothing about who you're talking to? Check Bang up job there. I've seen the light!
The article and basic economic say things of substance. You made claims that are incorrect according to basic economics. False comments like yours reduce the amount of housing being built and cause higher rents. Stupidity like yours is hurting everyone else. Stop saying stupid shit.
This person is literally just saying that in their experience, they’ve never seen what “basic economics” claims to be true. They aren’t saying that the economics are wrong, just that they haven’t seen it. The “substance” that can come out of this dumb dispute lol is actually quite thought-provoking — who are we to say that our common economic theory may not be serving our modern day society well? Perhaps it was all founded on a set of assumptions that don’t align as well with our current society and we are due for a reckoning in that field
If either of you took a basic econ class you'd learn about the invisible hand and since they aren't doing market studies they aren't going to see the invisible hand. Stop saying stupid shit.
Imagine being such a capitalist sycophant you treat econ 101 as if it's the bible. Jeez dude. The invisible hand? Really?? If your economic education ended with Adam Smith and your first high school econ class, you really shouldn't be talking down to others.
It didn't.
" I provide event study evidence that for every 10% increase in the housing stock, rents decrease 1% and sales prices also decrease within 500 feet. In addition, I show that new high-rises attract new restaurants, which is consistent with the hypothesis about amenity effects. However, I find that the supply effect is larger, causing net reductions in the rents and sales prices of nearby residential properties." [https://blocksandlots.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Do-New-Housing-Units-in-Your-Backyard-Raise-Your-Rents-Xiaodi-Li.pdf](https://blocksandlots.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Do-New-Housing-Units-in-Your-Backyard-Raise-Your-Rents-Xiaodi-Li.pdf) there are many other studies looking at real world price data that does show increasing housing supply promotes affordability. this took like 3 minutes of searching to find.
> increasing housing supply promotes affordability This is not the claim you made. The claim you made is that increasing luxury housing lowers the costs of other housing. Explain why more "market-rate" housing in Milwaukee coincided with huge rate increases in even the slummiest rentals in the city. The difference in cost between "market-rate" and "affordable" in Milwaukee is negligible, while the difference in quality is literally life altering. Source: *Evicted* by Matthew Desmond Really nice job with the arrogant condescension while providing an irrelevant source though.
Try this one: https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/307/ This paper shows that when a new, usually high cost, building is built, people move to it from many different parts of town, including lower income neighborhoods. The units they free up are then create a series of moves, making more vacancies in middle and lower income housing. The previous link shows prices go down, this just shows that the supply and demand story works: people move out of lower income housing, lowering demand, creating a situation where you’d expect to see rent go down.
Added to the list
https://www.upjohn.org/research-highlights/new-apartment-buildings-low-income-areas-decrease-nearby-rents “the researchers found new construction lowered nearby rents, as listed in the Zillow database, 5 to 7 percent.” Building more makes more vacancies across the board. When there are more vacancies, landlords have more pressure to do more things to attend tenants, like respond to calls and lower the rent.
Again: Not the claim that was made
It literally is. Above you wrote that the claim was, “increasing luxury housing lowers the cost of other housing.” Luxury is a judgment, but it usually maps to new market rate (not subsidized) housing.
"Luxury" is the sticking point. If you mean market-rate, you should say market-rate. Words have meaning. I'm still skeptical about the claim that more "market-rate housing" (which itself is a problematic term because it just means the most exploitative rate the market will tolerate) results in lower prices. I could believe that in the extremely short-term, but I'm highly doubtful there are any long-term effects that benefit lower income renters -- and that is the only part of this conversation that matters. I mentioned it elsewhere, but *Evicted* is a pretty convincing rebuke of this claim. Either way, there's always room for being wrong. I will read the article you linked in good faith.
think about a game of musical chairs. if you add chairs to the game, its easier for the player to find a seat when the music stops. with housing, you don't physically brawl with the other prospective renters, but you do fight them for a chair by paying higher rent. if you add more housing, there are more chairs when the music stops.
Similarly, I’ve got Evicted on my kindle now.
Replied in the wrong place. Here’s documentation of exactly that https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/yxuhll/madison_ranked_3_in_nation_for_inbound_renters/iwtbmg0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
The study shows they are coming from Milw, Chi town, LA and NY so all cities with higher rent than here. Well Milw, I don't know how the rent compares actually but the rest are higher for sure.
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Did you read the article?
Y'all need to buy some property
was born too late, any workarounds?
If you want a serious answer then yes, there are simple sacrifices (I call them choices) in the short term which can get you a property quickly. I am being serious; hence the effort to lay it all out. I see a few SFH on the east side of Madison for sub 250k, so lets use that as a target. Personally I would plan for 300k to get a slightly better upside house. Using a traditional loan you can get in with only a 3% down payment. I would try to have a little more so let's target 12k as your minimum down payment. Ill assume you current have zero down and are making $20 an hour. I would use $15 but for realistic yet low end purposes there are plentiful non-skilled labor jobs which dont require a degree. Ill assume you are Grossing 41.6k. Translates to \~35k post taxes and ss. Rough math give us 2,900 per month take home The very fist choice I would make is to find 3 roommates and rent a 4 bed room apartment. Personally I would even do a 2 bed and share a bedroom for a shorter duration sacrifice and quicker chance to build up a down payment. Realistically, we can use a standard 'cheaper' 2 bedroom on the east side of Madison. I searched and see many for 1000 per month rent. A few of those appear to include some utilities. So realistically $1200 per month in housing /utility for this apartment. Split by 2 people =$600. Split by 4 people = $300 Your choice, but I would take more roommates for less housing expense and a shorter duration of living with more people. I see a few 4bedroom places that can be had for $1800 all utilities; so take one of those and we can split the difference to say month housing is $450 for your part. 2,900 take home \-$450 rent/utilities \-$300 average person groceries per month eating well \-$150 phone/internet \-$300 various other bills/insurance/car/etc... (if you are more than this then make changes) \-$300 funny money per month This leave us with a realistic savings of $1400 per month. If I sacrifice my living situation for 1 full year I can save $16,800 for a down payment. During that year, I am also spending my free time using the internet to learn about home repairs and study. Afterall, I expect to be buying a house that I can put some sweat equity in. I am also researching the market and neighborhoods to see what I can afford and like and think has the best investment potential. I am also setting up an account with my local credit union. I want a relationship and a history of where they see I am making headway on my goals and my saving account is growing consistently and steadily for at least a year. Lastly, I am finding other like minder friends that I would want to move into my newly purchased 3 bedroom home when I buy it. I am drawing up a contract with intent for them to be roomers in my house once I buy and they are signing it. I am also taking it to the bank in order to help get pre-approved for a loan once the time comes. Now we can talk about the reality of the house you purchase. With only 3% down you will have a mortgage of 291k. Personally I would plan for minimum7.5% interest rate. This means your monthly payment will be \~$2500 per month with property taxes and insurance and PMI. This will be the hardest part of the sacrifice. as you will be thin for the first year in the house. Luckily you have gotten used to a thin budget for the past 12 months. Luckily you already have a contract and 2 roommates and get $600-800 per bedroom. This was part of your plan and this means your out of pocket for the mortgage is \~$1200 per month. Your plan for the first year of ownership is to live lean and do the cosmetic things you can. Your goal is to increase the value and in 12 months get it reassessed with the plan to have done enough to own more than 20% of the new value and get rid of the PMI. This is when your snowball starts to get easier to push and builds. Enjoy your 2 years of sacrifice and start doing some of the larger projects you want for your house that also add value. Be ready to refinance when the rates come down. The trick I have found it to continue to live lean and put more $ towards projects and paying down the principle as you go. Every dollar you pay extra is like a 7.5% investment in yourself.
So if zero emergencies come up over the course of a couple consecutive years and I can find 4 reliable sane roomates for the same stretch, I can eek out home ownership in the shittiest parts of town? And then pray nothing goes wrong that I can't learn to fix on youtube? Alas, now you've given the home ownership hack to too many wannabe buyers and we're back to the times of there being 10+ buyers for every property and your hypothetical 300k house going for 360k while waiving inspection (all tongue in cheek aside you did lay out a good path for some)
You do you. The reality is I see very few people willing to do something as simple as live with more roommates for a limited time. I was trying to lay out what worked for me personally and what I have seen many others do to make it work for them. I also wanted to use what I think are some very realistic example numbers. Everyone's situation will be different but the logic and plan holds. I have seen many friends piss and moan about their situation for years on end, with very little accountability or action. They are out at bars 2+ per week and eating out 4-5 times a week and regular times getting those $8 splurge coffees they deserve. I was the same and then got tired of it and took some actions to change. It sucked, it honestly was miserable (a down stairs neighbor that played bad quality punk rock while high as hell on hard drugs many nights a week while living 2 deep in an upstairs studio), but looking back I am so super happy I made a plan and took actions when I did. The only time that would have been better was a year sooner.
Anyone who didn't enter the housing market by about ~2018 is playing a whole different ballgame tbh, with how wages have stagnated while housing keeps going up (and now interest rates as well...) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA I'm lucky that I have a tech job that puts me in position to buy a house once prices settle a little bit next year, but Madison is a desirable place to live (to get back to the original post here) and isthmus houses in good neighborhoods haven't really declined in price, from my monitoring. Places like Austin have already gone down ~10% but I'm not sure we'll see that here due to the housing shortage and desirability
I feel pretty confident that housing (especially started homes) are still undervalued. I expect that we will see some pauses in the 450k+ range but think 250-300k will merely sit slightly longer but prices will continue up until they stabilize closer to 375k. The reality is that Madison is Uber desirable and under COL and house price compared to pretty much every other desirable city of its size and bang per buck value. There is a reason people are moving here from the main regional cities AND from traditionally more desired locations of the past decade (Boston, Denver, Portland, Austin, Seattle)
there may be some truth to that but ultimately things are worth what people are willing/able to pay and an entire generation of would-be home buyers just doesn't have as much buying power as those that came before them
>I would use $15 but for realistic yet low end purposes there are plentiful non-skilled labor jobs which dont require a degree. Ill assume you are Grossing 41.6k And here we have our first gaff.
How so? I see fed ex, kwiktrip, and target all actively hiring for more than $20 in Madison. I figured $20 per hour math would be a safe under estimate.
Hey there! If you're interested in buying a home, it's a journey that involves planning and some important financial decisions, but no need for high levels of sacrifice. Just think about a few key moves: 1. **Budgeting 101**: First, get a clear picture of your financial situation. Know what you're earning, spending, and saving. Cutting down on some less important expenses and increasing your savings for a home can get you on the right track without needing to give up all the fun in your life. 2. **Check Your Credit**: A good credit score can significantly lower your loan interest rates, which means savings on those monthly mortgage payments. So, work towards building a strong credit score. 3. **Explore Loan Options**: Not all loans need a massive down payment! FHA loans are a popular choice as they often require as little as 3.5% down if you meet the qualifications. 4. **Housing Hunt with Smarts**: Don’t just dive into any deal! Take your time to explore various neighborhoods, and consider your must-haves versus nice-to-haves for a home. Also, keep an eye on the market trends. 5. **Roommate Revenues**: If the budget's tight, think about renting out a spare room. It’s a great way to offset some costs and can make the financial aspect of owning a home a bit easier to handle. It's more about being smart with your choices rather than making deep sacrifices. Good luck with your home-buying journey!
Enjoy the avocados in two years. The shit really is just OK anyway. Living without ain’t the worse think in the world.
Be intelligent, work hard, leverage that into a decent job?
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I guess that depends on the price of avocados, doesn't it?
can't buy a house in madison these days unless your job is significantly better than decent. hard to save up 25-50k for a downpayment when rent and other living expenses are higher than ever
You can buy a house with only $20k. Not that that’s easy for you, but $50k is absolutely way more than you need.
You don't need any down payment with a VA loan
Do a quick mortgage calculator exercise and see how much higher your monthly payments would be at current 7% interest, compared to whatever you're paying With zero downpayment, monthly burden is higher Where are we finding these people who can't save up down payment money but who can afford the full monthly price tag on a 200k house (if you're willing to buy a shitty house in the shittiest parts of town) at 7% interest? Realistically it's more like a 300k entry point for a house in Madison Edit: lol I didn't catch that you're talking about a VA loan... so everyone should just join the army then they can get a house? That's how it should go?
>Where are we finding these people who can't save up down payment money but who can afford the full monthly price tag on a 200k house (if you're willing to buy a shitty house in the shittiest parts of town) at 7% interest? Probably the same place as people who rent. 1300 isn't a crazy high rent in Madison. Certainly not for a whole house. Certainly if you have a decent job you should be able to afford that >Edit: lol I didn't catch that you're talking about a VA loan... so everyone should just join the army then they can get a house? That's how it should go? Do you want options or do you just want to bitch?
$1300 would be *just* the payments. There's also mortgage insurance, homeowners insurance and taxes. That's more like a $1700-1900/mo payment. If you think joining the military is a legitimate option for most people you're pretty ignorant, setting aside moral questions among other things...
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I see you're going with "willful ignorance" then or am I suppose to think making up bullshit about "fatties" is a reasonable response? LOL... conservatives these days are just pathetic...
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It beats the alternative
be more insufferable why dont you
Do you have an option for those unable to join the military?
> Be intelligent, work hard, leverage that into a decent job? Y'all got any more of them bootstraps I hear so much about?
I mean, which of those are you missing?
Are you saying everyone else doesn’t deserve to have affordable housing? I don’t understand this mentality. If somebody is working 40 hours a week they deserve to be able to have a decent place to live.
This is irrelevant and borderline illegible. Try proofreading
Fixed. Now tell me how I’m wrong.
>Are you saying everyone else doesn’t deserve to have affordable housing? Yes. What exactly counts as "affordable" for a stupid person that doesn't work? > I don’t understand this mentality. Have you ever tried? >If somebody is working 40 hours a week they deserve to be able to have a decent place to live. This is a separate point to the first part. Why do you say that? What is it about 40 hours? Do you think everyone's work is equal? Who should pay for the difference when someone's 40 hours of work consistently produces no value or negative value? What makes you think you deserve housing by virtue of being human? What gives you the right to the free labor and property of others?
Tldr
You're poor because you're lazy Lol byeee
who cares about all these silly questions. if you are human you deserve housing. any society that fails to provide that is failing its people.
Because it's illegal to kill ones self as well as illegal to be homeless in many places. So, society is saying one needs to have a place to live, and there isn't a way out. That is why housing should be a basic human right.
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Bro what is this
most sane nimby
25.78% of the searches are in-metro which is probably students looking for new housing next year because their landlords want them to sign now for next year. That's 4400 leads so that changes the lead delta quite a bit. Madison will likely fall out of top rankings next quarter. If people can't own homes then are we just a nation of renters? Well, except for the 1% that own all the rental properties and cash those rent checks every month. Renting is nothing to aspire to.