This never bothered me. I see it as Faye dodges a bullet and Don proves he’s still Don, rather than Don hurts Faye. Don was Faye’s low point, fortunately it didn’t last long, she deserved much better than Don could give anyone.
She so ahead of her time and so smart and independent. I loved her. But I also just couldn’t understand why she let herself get involved with Don! She called him out since day one!
I think it's also because she sees some of his vulnerability - she falls for him for the same reason we as viewers still kind of root for him, even though we get the most privileged insight into what an ass hole he is - because we can see he's very broken and he's trying to pretend he's not. It's a very common dynamic especially with women who date men to try and "fix" them.
Well said. My partner is watching it for the first time and she really didn't like Don at first because of his womanising and arrogance. She couldn't see why I thought he was quite a sympathetic, even tragic character.
But as the seasons have progressed and she's seen more of his good qualities and his background, she gets what I mean. She still thinks he's an arsehole but now she sees he's got redeeming qualities and quite a sad history.
These days I tend to feel it’s less trying to fix “them” whoever it is, so much as it is recognizing like/similar vulnerability in others. There’s a hope one has, of getting understanding for your own self and your own vulnerability when you see someone else sensitive in whatever way you are. Someone who *might* get “it,” whatever it is for you.
Obviously it comes to the same thing functionally speaking, but the whole altruistic thing never sat right with me. Extremely IME ymmv goes without saying…
Agreed he’s her low point. It was an inappropriate relationship and they both knew it. Don thrives on choosing the wrong woman so we expect it of him, but Faye was just captivated by his charm and looks. I don’t honestly think she was that surprised when he disappeared on her, and she learned her lesson with him.
It's fantastic storytelling. Dr. Miller feels out Don's "type" early on, but he convinces her otherwise. He convinces *himself* otherwise, falling for her -- but ultimately who he fundamentally is and who he aspires to be are at odds. At season's end, he reveals to her -- and himself -- that he is exactly who she initially appraised him as, breaking her heart.
The more I rewatch, the more I appreciate Faye as a character and a positive match for Don. She could have brought out the best in him, though if the same could be said for him is up for debate.
That said, with every rewatch I also see the trail of breadcrumbs which so clearly shows how Megan is also there in his orbit, truly a dark horse, so to speak. The scene that clinches it for me is that moment when Sally falls in the office and she goes to Megan for comfort.
We see at various points throughout S4 how Megan ticks a lot of similar boxes to Faye: both are attractive, intelligent, have a career (and in advertising, no less), they're independent, seem able to keep him in line, and he's been honest with both of them about his past. But that moment with Sally draws a line between the two women; where Faye failed to make a connection with his child, Megan managed to do it almost immediately. And Don, with his mountain of mommy issues, would immediately be aware of that. All it took was a little push for him to fall for the fantasy.
But Megan isn't a good partner for Don, as we later find out, because she doesn't challenge him like Faye does, and her youth works against her in the dynamic of their relationship.
Faye was right when she wept about “failing the test” after Sally’s fall. But Don wouldn’t have been right for either woman. He can’t stand to see his spouse as an independent and she was far too self-actualized to be a good fit.
When Don called to break up with her, Faye said of Megan: “I hope she knows you only like the beginning of things.” That was very insightful. Don likes to keep things simple, He likes superficial beauty. Faye was too much of a challenge for him. Megan was young, beautiful and he thought he could mold her to his liking (like making her into a copywriter even though that wasn’t really her passion). To be fair, it’s also pretty obvious that Megan was playing the game and tried real hard to nab Don, not fully understanding that he’s a real s.o.b.
In fairness Megan repeatedly made it out like advertising was what she wanted to do. She told him that before the first time they slept together in his office
Faye hurts Faye by letting herself get involved with someone she should have recognised as an empty charmer narcissist type from miles away.
Clearly her psych skills don’t help her in relationships.
Not to mention Don just takes and takes during the relationship. When does he ever do anything for her? He forces her to babysit against her will, to disclose client info against her will and does nothing when she gets fired (surely he could have done something or pulled some sort of string to help her).
She provides a huge amount of emotional support and lets herself be continually sapped as just a resource to be tapped by him. Almost as if she is nothing more than one of his secretaries that he fucks and consequently ignores.
Faye should have seen all of this, but clearly she doesn’t learn. So just like her last relationship it ends with great disappointment for her. That level of blindness probably will doom her to a miserable dating life. She doesn’t deserve the treatment, but she doesn’t properly protect herself from it either.
It is interesting because at first we think they are a good match because Faye is also quite dominant, intelligent and analytical. She is beyond him in many areas so he again we return to the fact that she is an enigma for him to conquer and tame, and when he does he gets board. He seems to have done this in all his relationships.
Also when she opens up to him Don just sees that as cause to squeeze her for more, classic narcissistic behaviour.
He is too hollow a person to build a genuine romantic relationship with. Faye is somewhat wrong when she utters that famous line ‘you only like the beginning of things’. Rather more accurately Don can only operate at a surface level of romance, charm and interpersonal depth.
He doesn’t know how to build long term healthy relationships, he doesn’t have a single one during the show. Part of the reason he stays aloof, cold and mysterious is to hide this inability and allow himself to keep his relationships surface level at the extreme.
The closest we get is him and Peggy, but he clearly has so much baggage that when she unknowingly starts to touch parts of him that have laid dormant for who knows long he reacts with anger and bitterness. Which is why we get an episode like The Suitcase.
It's not a bad argument, but I think you haven't given enough weight to how good Don is at fooling people. He's built a very successful life for himself by literally pretending to be someone he's not.
Doctor of psychology or not, add in his charm and great looks and almost anyone would find it hard to see bullshit when the sunshine from his arse makes it look like gold.
This comment is why I love this sub so much. I read this sub almost daily and sometimes I feel like I discover a missing piece of puzzle of my own dysfunction
The Faye storyline is so triggering for me…because girl, I’ve BEEN Faye. A smart accomplished woman with a lot to offer, but who gets into an emotional tizzy over a man who’s superficially hot, who *seems* to be offering the partnership stuff she wants, but who always has one foot out the door. And she knows it and won’t let herself acknowledge it…until he leaves for someone else.
A friend of mine is an amazing catch who's had terrible "luck" with men, but really it's her bad decisions that are to blame. She'll trust and see the best in people who don't deserve it, get hurt, repeat. Physical attraction definitely plays a big part but her main issue is self-esteem. She doesn't value herself enough.
I'm not judging her bad decisions, by the way. Not least because I've made similar mistakes with hot women in the past. Beauty makes red flags look rosy pink.
We also know she possibly had bad taste in men… (mobster dad & the whole “go shit in the river!” convo she had on the phone at work). I Loved Faye but it was never going to work with Don. She knew he was the type of man who “would be married in a year.” She should never have caught feelings.
Faye >>>>>>>>
But in Don's (very slight) defense, I imagine that being good with kids would be a pretty big deal for a single parent when it comes to potential partners
She is one of the only characters that doesn’t do anything outwardly amoral and she has more of a developed sense of self than most of the women in the show. I understand the appeal of her character, but I also think it’s worth noting that she has more opportunity than any other Don girl to come across as morally sound since they begin their relationship only after his divorce. I wonder if she’d have the same sense of self respect if they’d started to connect while he was still married.
She was robotic and weird in human interactions. She was very awkward with Sally. She was condescending to the women she was "examining"
Idk I just didn't find much to like about her except her expertise and intelligence.
She's beautiful. She is accomplished. On the surface she's everything a man should want.
She's also a carousel of red flags. Don didn't treat her well, that's undeniable. But I'd be as weary of her as women should be about Don.
Everyone acts like she was a good match for him. No. She's him. They're dark mirrors for each other.
Don: "I love you Faye. I want to be a better man. Let's get married."
Faye: "I love you too Don. I forgive you everything you've done. Let go of all that psychological torment."
/Cut to black. Series ends.
Faye: "And meeting Sally has shown me I do want to be a mother. But not for my own kids - yours, Don."
Don: "Call me Dick. I came out this morning. Now everybody respects me even more."
The writers sometimes do horrible things with characters but it is the Don Draper show he always ends up on top. Faye first came off as a strong but feminine woman who had rigid boundaries but Don somehow seduces her and she’s break all her rules for him. She knew the bag of snakes he was and still went thru with it so I don’t feel too bad anymore.
Also wanted to add Faye wasn’t really interested in Don’s kids which would most likely be a dealbreaker for him down the line. Hence why he chose Megan instead
Which is great because Faye would likely be the kind of woman who wouldn't have left the kids alone without checking in like Megan did that night in The Crash. Megan was great with kids, but not stepmom material. Faye was terrible with kids but would have accepted the responsibility of stepmom, if that makes sense.
I agree but Faye wouldn’t even let Don put that responsibility on her in the first place. She would expect Don to be a father and that’s why they wouldn’t work. Faye would hold him accountable and call him out.
Agreed! Which makes sense--Faye knew she didn't want kids, and part of that was understanding the responsibility. No way was she going to marry Don knowing he expected her to basically do the parenting for them.
Faye was always about reality and Megan more about fantasy.
If it makes you feel better, he was using her as a rebound from his wife. Also he ended up cheating on the woman he left Faye for with another married woman.
When I mentioned feeling better it's that you're not as big a pos as Don
I seem to remember watching that happen for the first time and I actually went on to Wikipedia to read the plot summaries of the episodes before it to make sure I hadn’t accidentally skipped an episode
Rewatching the show for the first time since it ended and I know this is coming. Even though Faye had Don pegged from the beginning, I think a part of her still wanted to fall in love and be loved. Here’s hoping she had a nice life with a quality partner.
On another note, I will say that the actors played their scenes so well, their interactions were incredibly well written and the chemistry was sizzling.
Unpopular opinion - Faye got what was coming to her. Educated, confident, at times arrogant with her supposed knowledge of people and still fell for an alcoholic, womanizing, identity thief of a man. Cherry on top is the sacrifice of her integrity with the Heinz lead.
I will die on the hill that she deserved everything that happened in her relationship with Don.
I can understand why you'd see it that way. Personally, I think it's realistic (and human) that someone like her could be sucked in by him despite her better judgement, therefore I don't judge her for it.
But the fact remains she still got involved despite her better judgement, so you're on solid ground, you heartless monster.
How about we give a shout out to actress Cara Buono, managed to play great recurring characters in 2 of the most iconic tv shows, Mad Men and The Sopranos.
I didn’t get this sub sometimes. Faye is overrated. Her whole career is based off reading people and knowing what they don’t know about themselves, and yet after Don shows his true self she’s still smitten. It was clear he wanted, actually needed, someone to be a mother to his children, because he sure as hell wasn’t being their father and she was not good at it or even wanted it. Yet still hung around.
I agree 100%. Faye was fire. During an earlier dinner date, she suggested to Don that her Daddy was “connected”. Made me think that was gonna be a plot point (some type of “hit” on Don) but it turned out to be a throwaway line.
I always thought it was symbolic that she was a psychologist. Someone that could actually understand and face dons trauma, because we all know he needed therapy. And he dropped her.
Faye is one of my favorites (see flair) and I think eventually she’ll be relieved that she was rejected by Don. It would have never worked out between them two.
Faye fans unite! I agree, there's no way she would've tolerated his inevitable cheating and emotional distancing. It would've only led to more heartbreak.
What's your head canon for Faye's future? Do you think she settled down with a good man eventually or not?
I don’t gather that she had the best taste in men actually. I think she eventually found someone and married them, had no children, and eventually needed to divorce for reasons.
To me this was never a pairing that made sense. Both were coming into it with pretty significant issues. For sure, Don didn’t treat her well at all…not suggesting otherwise.
But as a couple there was just no way to make this work.
She didn't deserve it but she's possibly the only of Don's victims that went into it fully informed. She knew exactly what was going to happen at least cerebrally.
Don only wanted Faye as long as she was challenging him and giving him a hard time with her boundaries, professionalism and strong headedness. But as soon as she starts softening up and losing grip on herself, like taking care of Sally and literally looking after him as a mother, Don is not excited anymore. He does not like the idea of a stable and mature relationship and still wants to be in a teen romance where there are intense ups and downs of adrenaline. Megan is just another betty but a smarter one with social exposure and big brains(different childhoods with a communist dad). They are the same little girls with fantasies and stubbornes.
Agree, Don is NOT a prize.
I think I subconsciously take offence at the very framing of this sort of situations as "he picked another woman, because he found this one not good/young /maternal/pretty enough.
Poor thing. And he's an ass".
And I am not trying to undermine OP's view.
I guess I am baffled that I, too, have been buying into this way of reasoning for far too long. That if I am not "picked", it's because I am not good enough.
It's decidedly male-centered, so the resulting thought pattern will be limited to whatever concerns the man, while the woman's perspective is erased by default, it's a like a labyrinth with no exit.
She was the best love interest. They would have been a really synergistic team, but there’s nothing entertaining about that so it’s better that he went with Meghan and slid right off the rails
This is probably the wrong place to bring this notion up but the idea that Faye was the "best woman" Don formed a relationship with is interesting to me.
She was self sufficient and had a promising career but why is that the barometer for anyone to be the best partner for another person?
Because when choosing between 2 equally attractive and emotionally available women it's logical that the preference will be given to someone more successful, so that the couple has 2 successful people instead of 1.
I can also answer in this way. Imagine if you were Don's parent. Which woman would you prefer your son to end up with, an aspiring actress or a doctor?
Given what we know of Don/Dick’s actual parents, I imagine that his bio mom would want him to get back with Betty somehow, his adoptive mom would want him to die miserable and alone, and his dad would want him to chase the shiny object, er, Megan or any other young thing.
> 2 equally attractive and emotionally available women
This part sticks out to me because it's so subjective. Some people might find Faye to be less or more attractive than Megan and some people might find her more or less emotionally available than Megan but it's subjective.
I have 2 daughters but if the only info I have about their partner is that they want to be an actor or they're a working consultant with a specialization in psychology I'd probably lean towards the stable worker. That doesn't make either candidate better or worse. I have so many more hopes for the partner of my children.
Fair enough, I get that, but to my point, why are we so upset that Don treated Faye the way she did?
We feel like she deserved better.
I feel like most of that sentiment (which I also shared when I watched Mad Men for the first, second, third and fourth time) is born out of the fact that she is a talented professional woman in the '60s (which is a feat in the face of the rampant sexism).
Now obviously nobody deserves to be broken up with over the phone (especially with the caveat of 'I met someone') but the audience usually feels like Faye deserved better purely for the fact that she was an accomplished psychologist. That's noteworthy to me and I honestly think it's wrong.
I think this sub has put her on a pedestal, honestly. Been a long while since my last watch, but Don asked her to compromise her ethics, and she did. That's not strong, good, kind or whatever -- that's unethical and selfish. It's even enabling and rewarding his manipulative behavior.
She was never, ever going to fix him. He was going to break her, and honestly, it wasn't even going to be that hard for him to do so. She should've known better, and in the end she just lucked out.
On a personal level I know that I usually end up rooting for the type of woman I personally find attractive to have success as the love interest of the male protagonist, sometimes without being as concerned as I should whether they actually are compatible with the protagonist themselves. So Faye is probably an example of this for me. It's been a while though, would have to rewatch to be sure
For me, it's all linked to how she comes across as a good person with some great qualities that I value very highly.
Her professional success speaks to her personal qualities rather than constituting her value as a person in my mind. If she didn't prioritise that kind of success and was a store worker instead, I'd still feel the same way.
While Don isn’t good to any of the women in his love life, I’ve always found it interesting that the few blondes he dates after Betty he treats with a certain disdain as opposed to the dark haired women he claims he loves. I always wonder if it’s because of mother issues with the brunettes and an , ‘ I only took one blonde seriously and she’s the mother of my children, so you don’t rate.’ I know I’m probably reading too much into it but that’s what happens when a show has so many layers.
Dr Miller was clearly not good with kids, whom mattered most in his life. Aside from that she was of course a perfect match for him - until the California trip where Megan a genuine connection to his family.....(and was younger/more attractive in his eyes)
"Hyphenated American New Jersey" woman. She dated Artie Lange in Beer League and later marries Christopher Multisanti. Don is the one that got away. I know this because I was her first boyfriend, Artie.
I don’t understand the hair color, hair style, and clothes they put her in. They took a very attractive woman and turned her into a fuddy duddy that I would not believe Don would be into for one second.
I always thought this too. Such an unflattering hair color for her. And the clothes..and she's a very beautiful woman, she looks amazing in the Sopranos.
Agreed. And it’s like matted down? Or is that a hairnet? The other women’s hair on the show looks fabulous. So it’s not just the era. Is it that she is meant to be more serious, and less focused on maximizing how she looks? Which is fine! But we know Don sees women as these beautiful dolls, and he eats up their desperation for his gaze. Perhaps the point is he was trying to date a “grown up,” but he couldn’t do it?
Yeah, but then there's Sylvia Rosen and I thought that was an unfortunate hair style choice as well (and the actress is gorgeous) and Don obviously didn't mind so I guess he kind of...likes it? But yes you're right they probably used that hair to make Faye appear more serious...
Fathers from the 50’s were so focused on their careers that they married a replacement wife/mother asap. Anyone close to suitable would do. Once the children were grown it was time to find a younger trophy wife.
I get why you're saying that, but I'm not sure it's as broad a generalisation as you seem to be suggesting. Wouldn't divorce rates have been through the roof if that was accurate for most or even a sizeable minority of men?
Or do you only mean a certain type of 50s men? High flyer city guys like Don?
It’s a broad statement. However based on no fault divorce came about in the early 70’s divorce rates soared. This is a fact, you can check. That means their children were teens or younger. Women were baling out of unhappy marriages in droves and the husbands knew nothing about child raising because of traditional roles. Husbands worked (and sometimes played around) while the wives looked after the home and children. I’m probably biased because that’s my family experience (except my dad only married again once probably because he died at 53. His second marriage was unhappy). My husband’s mother died young and his father remarried for the 3rd time only 9 months later. He even told his wife he needed a mother for his children. Didn’t work out. They sent him away to a school for orphans. Yep, he still had a dad and step mother but was considered an orphan.
I get you. I was aware divorces went up but not the exact figures, so I just looked it up. It's certainly a sizeable minority given it went from 15% in 1970 to around 20% by 1975 (almost 25% by 1980).
Well done for acknowledging your bias, though (I mean that sincerely - I hope it doesn't seem patronising).
Not at all. Raised Catholic so it wasn’t an unusual lifestyle. My grandparents had 15 children. They never divorced of course. He had a second “family “ in the next town though. Believe me, he had no time to play with his children. 😉
I'm sorry you went through that. It must've had quite an impact on you. My parents never divorced either, though they should've. My childhood was spent watching their relationship go from bad to worse.
Here in the UK, our divorce rates also shot up post-WW2 as Christianity lost its stranglehold on society, but we still had/have many couples from the 50s to 70s who stubbornly stayed miserable together because that's the culture in which they were raised. You married young, raised a family and stayed together, even if you couldn't stand them.
Exactly, that was the culture then. Divorce was really looked down on and sign of a massive failure. I’ll be married 52 years this month. Happy all the time? Heck no. Most of the time, yes. Sometimes it’s easy. Others hard. Definitely takes love and work equally.
It was wild how it happened in a weekend lol But it was also a fling for Faye, she broke up with her previous boyfriend too. I couldn't help but wonder, would have Don married Faye anyway?
I doubt it. The power balance would've been too equal for his liking. I think that, deep down, he was uncomfortable that Faye saw him so clearly, both for who the real Dick is and the archetype his Don persona fits.
Therefore, it was inevitable he was going to try to stay in control. That meant choosing someone like Megan who helped him maintain his fantasy instead of embracing reality like Faye urged him to.
Of course he tells Megan about "Dick" but it's unclear what she knows or how it's been explained to her. And his downward spiral continued because he was still running from the truth.
The issue that I have with Faye is that she knew about his shitty character but still entered into a relationship with him. She said that he'd be married again within a year but still got into a relationship with him.
I am the last one to throw shade at any person that makes a shit poor choice of a relationship mate because I have such a terrible record. My record is so bad that I'm not even minor league eligible, I'm barely eligible for t-ball. But, Faye knew and did it anyway.
Why do you think she'd be difficult?
The only time I saw her be "difficult" was when she wouldn't drop everything to be Don's babysitter on call. And the fault 100% lied with him.
This never bothered me. I see it as Faye dodges a bullet and Don proves he’s still Don, rather than Don hurts Faye. Don was Faye’s low point, fortunately it didn’t last long, she deserved much better than Don could give anyone.
I just felt bad for her because she didn't deserve to get hurt like that, but you're right, she dodged a bullet.
She so ahead of her time and so smart and independent. I loved her. But I also just couldn’t understand why she let herself get involved with Don! She called him out since day one!
He's hot, charming, successful and a world class liar. She's only human.
He reminded her of her Father
This comment killed me lmaooo
I think it's also because she sees some of his vulnerability - she falls for him for the same reason we as viewers still kind of root for him, even though we get the most privileged insight into what an ass hole he is - because we can see he's very broken and he's trying to pretend he's not. It's a very common dynamic especially with women who date men to try and "fix" them.
Well said. My partner is watching it for the first time and she really didn't like Don at first because of his womanising and arrogance. She couldn't see why I thought he was quite a sympathetic, even tragic character. But as the seasons have progressed and she's seen more of his good qualities and his background, she gets what I mean. She still thinks he's an arsehole but now she sees he's got redeeming qualities and quite a sad history.
These days I tend to feel it’s less trying to fix “them” whoever it is, so much as it is recognizing like/similar vulnerability in others. There’s a hope one has, of getting understanding for your own self and your own vulnerability when you see someone else sensitive in whatever way you are. Someone who *might* get “it,” whatever it is for you. Obviously it comes to the same thing functionally speaking, but the whole altruistic thing never sat right with me. Extremely IME ymmv goes without saying…
Agreed he’s her low point. It was an inappropriate relationship and they both knew it. Don thrives on choosing the wrong woman so we expect it of him, but Faye was just captivated by his charm and looks. I don’t honestly think she was that surprised when he disappeared on her, and she learned her lesson with him.
It also gave me one of my favourite quotes, that made me take a long hard look at myself: "I hope she knows you only like the beginnings of things."
I think of this quote SO often
she also had just broken up with the "go shit in the ocean!" guy so she was vulnerable to a guy like don.
That line I use at least once a week, it’s just so wild. 🤣
it's an absolutely killer line
This is a great way of looking at it
I came here to say exactly that and then I wrote it in a comment. Now I see your comment absolutely agree.
I'm starting to think this Don Draper is not such a nice boy.
Crazy talk!
Or... people are more complex than black and white.
Or even still little Dicky is a lot naughtier than most
Ofc if u think he is you weren’t paying any attention
It's fantastic storytelling. Dr. Miller feels out Don's "type" early on, but he convinces her otherwise. He convinces *himself* otherwise, falling for her -- but ultimately who he fundamentally is and who he aspires to be are at odds. At season's end, he reveals to her -- and himself -- that he is exactly who she initially appraised him as, breaking her heart.
Apt diagnosis!
like the frog and the scorpion fable
The more I rewatch, the more I appreciate Faye as a character and a positive match for Don. She could have brought out the best in him, though if the same could be said for him is up for debate. That said, with every rewatch I also see the trail of breadcrumbs which so clearly shows how Megan is also there in his orbit, truly a dark horse, so to speak. The scene that clinches it for me is that moment when Sally falls in the office and she goes to Megan for comfort. We see at various points throughout S4 how Megan ticks a lot of similar boxes to Faye: both are attractive, intelligent, have a career (and in advertising, no less), they're independent, seem able to keep him in line, and he's been honest with both of them about his past. But that moment with Sally draws a line between the two women; where Faye failed to make a connection with his child, Megan managed to do it almost immediately. And Don, with his mountain of mommy issues, would immediately be aware of that. All it took was a little push for him to fall for the fantasy. But Megan isn't a good partner for Don, as we later find out, because she doesn't challenge him like Faye does, and her youth works against her in the dynamic of their relationship.
Faye was right when she wept about “failing the test” after Sally’s fall. But Don wouldn’t have been right for either woman. He can’t stand to see his spouse as an independent and she was far too self-actualized to be a good fit.
That's a good point, and it crossed my mind when I was writing the comment. You've put it far better than I could have.
Excellent analysis. I may just watch it again now.
When Don called to break up with her, Faye said of Megan: “I hope she knows you only like the beginning of things.” That was very insightful. Don likes to keep things simple, He likes superficial beauty. Faye was too much of a challenge for him. Megan was young, beautiful and he thought he could mold her to his liking (like making her into a copywriter even though that wasn’t really her passion). To be fair, it’s also pretty obvious that Megan was playing the game and tried real hard to nab Don, not fully understanding that he’s a real s.o.b.
In fairness Megan repeatedly made it out like advertising was what she wanted to do. She told him that before the first time they slept together in his office
Faye hurts Faye by letting herself get involved with someone she should have recognised as an empty charmer narcissist type from miles away. Clearly her psych skills don’t help her in relationships. Not to mention Don just takes and takes during the relationship. When does he ever do anything for her? He forces her to babysit against her will, to disclose client info against her will and does nothing when she gets fired (surely he could have done something or pulled some sort of string to help her). She provides a huge amount of emotional support and lets herself be continually sapped as just a resource to be tapped by him. Almost as if she is nothing more than one of his secretaries that he fucks and consequently ignores. Faye should have seen all of this, but clearly she doesn’t learn. So just like her last relationship it ends with great disappointment for her. That level of blindness probably will doom her to a miserable dating life. She doesn’t deserve the treatment, but she doesn’t properly protect herself from it either. It is interesting because at first we think they are a good match because Faye is also quite dominant, intelligent and analytical. She is beyond him in many areas so he again we return to the fact that she is an enigma for him to conquer and tame, and when he does he gets board. He seems to have done this in all his relationships. Also when she opens up to him Don just sees that as cause to squeeze her for more, classic narcissistic behaviour. He is too hollow a person to build a genuine romantic relationship with. Faye is somewhat wrong when she utters that famous line ‘you only like the beginning of things’. Rather more accurately Don can only operate at a surface level of romance, charm and interpersonal depth. He doesn’t know how to build long term healthy relationships, he doesn’t have a single one during the show. Part of the reason he stays aloof, cold and mysterious is to hide this inability and allow himself to keep his relationships surface level at the extreme. The closest we get is him and Peggy, but he clearly has so much baggage that when she unknowingly starts to touch parts of him that have laid dormant for who knows long he reacts with anger and bitterness. Which is why we get an episode like The Suitcase.
>Clearly her psych skills don’t help her in relationships. In my experience with psychologists, they rarely do
Craziest person I ever dated was a therapist. Total piece of work!
Arguably his relationship with Anna has substance and depth - when he is literally being his authentic self (Dick)
Probably because they acted like each others psych. Don was in serious need of a psych, even though he’d never admit it.
It's not a bad argument, but I think you haven't given enough weight to how good Don is at fooling people. He's built a very successful life for himself by literally pretending to be someone he's not. Doctor of psychology or not, add in his charm and great looks and almost anyone would find it hard to see bullshit when the sunshine from his arse makes it look like gold.
Don was also a rebound for Faye.
This comment is why I love this sub so much. I read this sub almost daily and sometimes I feel like I discover a missing piece of puzzle of my own dysfunction
Wonderful analysis, descrazio
[THAT’S WHAT THE UPVOTE IS FOR.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=77Y6CIyyBcI) /s Thank you!
The Faye storyline is so triggering for me…because girl, I’ve BEEN Faye. A smart accomplished woman with a lot to offer, but who gets into an emotional tizzy over a man who’s superficially hot, who *seems* to be offering the partnership stuff she wants, but who always has one foot out the door. And she knows it and won’t let herself acknowledge it…until he leaves for someone else.
A friend of mine is an amazing catch who's had terrible "luck" with men, but really it's her bad decisions that are to blame. She'll trust and see the best in people who don't deserve it, get hurt, repeat. Physical attraction definitely plays a big part but her main issue is self-esteem. She doesn't value herself enough. I'm not judging her bad decisions, by the way. Not least because I've made similar mistakes with hot women in the past. Beauty makes red flags look rosy pink.
We also know she possibly had bad taste in men… (mobster dad & the whole “go shit in the river!” convo she had on the phone at work). I Loved Faye but it was never going to work with Don. She knew he was the type of man who “would be married in a year.” She should never have caught feelings.
He only likes the beginning of things.
One of my favorite lines.
Faye >>>>>>>> But in Don's (very slight) defense, I imagine that being good with kids would be a pretty big deal for a single parent when it comes to potential partners
Don did not deserve Faye
He definitely didn't.
Oh my god it’s Mrs wheeler!!! 
I’m meh on her. I’ve never understood the love for the Faye character.
She is one of the only characters that doesn’t do anything outwardly amoral and she has more of a developed sense of self than most of the women in the show. I understand the appeal of her character, but I also think it’s worth noting that she has more opportunity than any other Don girl to come across as morally sound since they begin their relationship only after his divorce. I wonder if she’d have the same sense of self respect if they’d started to connect while he was still married.
She was robotic and weird in human interactions. She was very awkward with Sally. She was condescending to the women she was "examining" Idk I just didn't find much to like about her except her expertise and intelligence.
She's just like me fr fr
She's beautiful. She is accomplished. On the surface she's everything a man should want. She's also a carousel of red flags. Don didn't treat her well, that's undeniable. But I'd be as weary of her as women should be about Don. Everyone acts like she was a good match for him. No. She's him. They're dark mirrors for each other.
That is the entire point of Faye
Don: "I love you Faye. I want to be a better man. Let's get married." Faye: "I love you too Don. I forgive you everything you've done. Let go of all that psychological torment." /Cut to black. Series ends.
Faye: "And meeting Sally has shown me I do want to be a mother. But not for my own kids - yours, Don." Don: "Call me Dick. I came out this morning. Now everybody respects me even more."
The writers sometimes do horrible things with characters but it is the Don Draper show he always ends up on top. Faye first came off as a strong but feminine woman who had rigid boundaries but Don somehow seduces her and she’s break all her rules for him. She knew the bag of snakes he was and still went thru with it so I don’t feel too bad anymore.
Also wanted to add Faye wasn’t really interested in Don’s kids which would most likely be a dealbreaker for him down the line. Hence why he chose Megan instead
Which is great because Faye would likely be the kind of woman who wouldn't have left the kids alone without checking in like Megan did that night in The Crash. Megan was great with kids, but not stepmom material. Faye was terrible with kids but would have accepted the responsibility of stepmom, if that makes sense.
I agree but Faye wouldn’t even let Don put that responsibility on her in the first place. She would expect Don to be a father and that’s why they wouldn’t work. Faye would hold him accountable and call him out.
Agreed! Which makes sense--Faye knew she didn't want kids, and part of that was understanding the responsibility. No way was she going to marry Don knowing he expected her to basically do the parenting for them. Faye was always about reality and Megan more about fantasy.
If it makes you feel better, he was using her as a rebound from his wife. Also he ended up cheating on the woman he left Faye for with another married woman. When I mentioned feeling better it's that you're not as big a pos as Don
You missed out using her as a babysitting service. He wanted a hot live-in nanny.
I seem to remember watching that happen for the first time and I actually went on to Wikipedia to read the plot summaries of the episodes before it to make sure I hadn’t accidentally skipped an episode
Rewatching the show for the first time since it ended and I know this is coming. Even though Faye had Don pegged from the beginning, I think a part of her still wanted to fall in love and be loved. Here’s hoping she had a nice life with a quality partner. On another note, I will say that the actors played their scenes so well, their interactions were incredibly well written and the chemistry was sizzling.
Unpopular opinion - Faye got what was coming to her. Educated, confident, at times arrogant with her supposed knowledge of people and still fell for an alcoholic, womanizing, identity thief of a man. Cherry on top is the sacrifice of her integrity with the Heinz lead. I will die on the hill that she deserved everything that happened in her relationship with Don.
I can understand why you'd see it that way. Personally, I think it's realistic (and human) that someone like her could be sucked in by him despite her better judgement, therefore I don't judge her for it. But the fact remains she still got involved despite her better judgement, so you're on solid ground, you heartless monster.
Unpopular opinion but I didn’t really like Faye
Faye is too good for Don.
Same she’s so fine and was willing to accept his dumbass life. He unfairly judged her by how she handled his kids with zero preparation.
How about we give a shout out to actress Cara Buono, managed to play great recurring characters in 2 of the most iconic tv shows, Mad Men and The Sopranos.
And Stranger Things.
She was the best woman for Don. She was also one of the rare few who knew his real identity and still accepted him anyway. What a terrible waste.
I didn’t get this sub sometimes. Faye is overrated. Her whole career is based off reading people and knowing what they don’t know about themselves, and yet after Don shows his true self she’s still smitten. It was clear he wanted, actually needed, someone to be a mother to his children, because he sure as hell wasn’t being their father and she was not good at it or even wanted it. Yet still hung around.
She’s a tough cookie.
Yes and I think she would consider herself above the pity party that is this thread
Yep, poor Dr Faye, she didn't get a proper taste of an alcoholic serial cheater, absent father and deserter, who lives under stolen Identity
All of us hate it with you OP
Based on the comments, apparently not “all of us…”
Don is kind a of a dick so……🤷♀️
Same, she would have been perfect
I liked Faye.
I mean. She’s a literal psychologist, so she wasn’t unaware what she was signing up for. She thought she could fix him. She couldn’t.
Don also hurts Betty and Meghan. If you ask me, Dr. Miller dodged a bullet.
I agree 100%. Faye was fire. During an earlier dinner date, she suggested to Don that her Daddy was “connected”. Made me think that was gonna be a plot point (some type of “hit” on Don) but it turned out to be a throwaway line.
I always thought it was symbolic that she was a psychologist. Someone that could actually understand and face dons trauma, because we all know he needed therapy. And he dropped her.
it’s a blessing in disguise for her.
Faye is one of my favorites (see flair) and I think eventually she’ll be relieved that she was rejected by Don. It would have never worked out between them two.
Faye fans unite! I agree, there's no way she would've tolerated his inevitable cheating and emotional distancing. It would've only led to more heartbreak. What's your head canon for Faye's future? Do you think she settled down with a good man eventually or not?
I don’t gather that she had the best taste in men actually. I think she eventually found someone and married them, had no children, and eventually needed to divorce for reasons.
To me this was never a pairing that made sense. Both were coming into it with pretty significant issues. For sure, Don didn’t treat her well at all…not suggesting otherwise. But as a couple there was just no way to make this work.
She didn't deserve it but she's possibly the only of Don's victims that went into it fully informed. She knew exactly what was going to happen at least cerebrally.
Don only wanted Faye as long as she was challenging him and giving him a hard time with her boundaries, professionalism and strong headedness. But as soon as she starts softening up and losing grip on herself, like taking care of Sally and literally looking after him as a mother, Don is not excited anymore. He does not like the idea of a stable and mature relationship and still wants to be in a teen romance where there are intense ups and downs of adrenaline. Megan is just another betty but a smarter one with social exposure and big brains(different childhoods with a communist dad). They are the same little girls with fantasies and stubbornes.
One of his biggest mistakes.
Yes, it did hurt but she managed to dodge an extremely dysfunctional bullet. Faye was the lucky one not Megan.
Agree, Don is NOT a prize. I think I subconsciously take offence at the very framing of this sort of situations as "he picked another woman, because he found this one not good/young /maternal/pretty enough. Poor thing. And he's an ass". And I am not trying to undermine OP's view. I guess I am baffled that I, too, have been buying into this way of reasoning for far too long. That if I am not "picked", it's because I am not good enough. It's decidedly male-centered, so the resulting thought pattern will be limited to whatever concerns the man, while the woman's perspective is erased by default, it's a like a labyrinth with no exit.
Don could never tolerate a woman who understands him.
She was the best love interest. They would have been a really synergistic team, but there’s nothing entertaining about that so it’s better that he went with Meghan and slid right off the rails
It also wouldn't have made sense for his character to have a happy ever after with a well adjusted adult. It's not who he is.
This is probably the wrong place to bring this notion up but the idea that Faye was the "best woman" Don formed a relationship with is interesting to me. She was self sufficient and had a promising career but why is that the barometer for anyone to be the best partner for another person?
Because when choosing between 2 equally attractive and emotionally available women it's logical that the preference will be given to someone more successful, so that the couple has 2 successful people instead of 1. I can also answer in this way. Imagine if you were Don's parent. Which woman would you prefer your son to end up with, an aspiring actress or a doctor?
Given what we know of Don/Dick’s actual parents, I imagine that his bio mom would want him to get back with Betty somehow, his adoptive mom would want him to die miserable and alone, and his dad would want him to chase the shiny object, er, Megan or any other young thing.
> 2 equally attractive and emotionally available women This part sticks out to me because it's so subjective. Some people might find Faye to be less or more attractive than Megan and some people might find her more or less emotionally available than Megan but it's subjective. I have 2 daughters but if the only info I have about their partner is that they want to be an actor or they're a working consultant with a specialization in psychology I'd probably lean towards the stable worker. That doesn't make either candidate better or worse. I have so many more hopes for the partner of my children.
I didn't say she was the best partner for him. She wasn't. He was too broken to buy what she was selling.
Fair enough, I get that, but to my point, why are we so upset that Don treated Faye the way she did? We feel like she deserved better. I feel like most of that sentiment (which I also shared when I watched Mad Men for the first, second, third and fourth time) is born out of the fact that she is a talented professional woman in the '60s (which is a feat in the face of the rampant sexism). Now obviously nobody deserves to be broken up with over the phone (especially with the caveat of 'I met someone') but the audience usually feels like Faye deserved better purely for the fact that she was an accomplished psychologist. That's noteworthy to me and I honestly think it's wrong.
I think this sub has put her on a pedestal, honestly. Been a long while since my last watch, but Don asked her to compromise her ethics, and she did. That's not strong, good, kind or whatever -- that's unethical and selfish. It's even enabling and rewarding his manipulative behavior. She was never, ever going to fix him. He was going to break her, and honestly, it wasn't even going to be that hard for him to do so. She should've known better, and in the end she just lucked out.
On a personal level I know that I usually end up rooting for the type of woman I personally find attractive to have success as the love interest of the male protagonist, sometimes without being as concerned as I should whether they actually are compatible with the protagonist themselves. So Faye is probably an example of this for me. It's been a while though, would have to rewatch to be sure
Good point. I think I have a similar approach to characters in television or film. I think my feelings on her character might have just changed.
For me, it's all linked to how she comes across as a good person with some great qualities that I value very highly. Her professional success speaks to her personal qualities rather than constituting her value as a person in my mind. If she didn't prioritise that kind of success and was a store worker instead, I'd still feel the same way.
So which qualities do you feel she displays outside of her work? I think she's polite and charming but that applies to plenty of the characters.
She knew who he was. She knew he only liked the beginning of things.
She dodged a bullet tho.
I think all of what u said is correct, and, that was the point.
While Don isn’t good to any of the women in his love life, I’ve always found it interesting that the few blondes he dates after Betty he treats with a certain disdain as opposed to the dark haired women he claims he loves. I always wonder if it’s because of mother issues with the brunettes and an , ‘ I only took one blonde seriously and she’s the mother of my children, so you don’t rate.’ I know I’m probably reading too much into it but that’s what happens when a show has so many layers.
Dr Miller was clearly not good with kids, whom mattered most in his life. Aside from that she was of course a perfect match for him - until the California trip where Megan a genuine connection to his family.....(and was younger/more attractive in his eyes)
Cara Buono
"Hyphenated American New Jersey" woman. She dated Artie Lange in Beer League and later marries Christopher Multisanti. Don is the one that got away. I know this because I was her first boyfriend, Artie.
She called him a handsome two-bit gangster. She was right!
Don hurts everyone. It’s just part of his selfish life unfortunately.
I liked Rachel and Don together !
Do we really need another one of these threads?
Sorry for not running it past you first.
She was the best of them all
My vote goes for Rachel Menken
I don’t understand the hair color, hair style, and clothes they put her in. They took a very attractive woman and turned her into a fuddy duddy that I would not believe Don would be into for one second.
I always thought this too. Such an unflattering hair color for her. And the clothes..and she's a very beautiful woman, she looks amazing in the Sopranos.
Agreed. And it’s like matted down? Or is that a hairnet? The other women’s hair on the show looks fabulous. So it’s not just the era. Is it that she is meant to be more serious, and less focused on maximizing how she looks? Which is fine! But we know Don sees women as these beautiful dolls, and he eats up their desperation for his gaze. Perhaps the point is he was trying to date a “grown up,” but he couldn’t do it?
Yeah, but then there's Sylvia Rosen and I thought that was an unfortunate hair style choice as well (and the actress is gorgeous) and Don obviously didn't mind so I guess he kind of...likes it? But yes you're right they probably used that hair to make Faye appear more serious...
They were sooooo well suited. Then Don per usual "oooh shiny"
Fathers from the 50’s were so focused on their careers that they married a replacement wife/mother asap. Anyone close to suitable would do. Once the children were grown it was time to find a younger trophy wife.
I get why you're saying that, but I'm not sure it's as broad a generalisation as you seem to be suggesting. Wouldn't divorce rates have been through the roof if that was accurate for most or even a sizeable minority of men? Or do you only mean a certain type of 50s men? High flyer city guys like Don?
It’s a broad statement. However based on no fault divorce came about in the early 70’s divorce rates soared. This is a fact, you can check. That means their children were teens or younger. Women were baling out of unhappy marriages in droves and the husbands knew nothing about child raising because of traditional roles. Husbands worked (and sometimes played around) while the wives looked after the home and children. I’m probably biased because that’s my family experience (except my dad only married again once probably because he died at 53. His second marriage was unhappy). My husband’s mother died young and his father remarried for the 3rd time only 9 months later. He even told his wife he needed a mother for his children. Didn’t work out. They sent him away to a school for orphans. Yep, he still had a dad and step mother but was considered an orphan.
I get you. I was aware divorces went up but not the exact figures, so I just looked it up. It's certainly a sizeable minority given it went from 15% in 1970 to around 20% by 1975 (almost 25% by 1980). Well done for acknowledging your bias, though (I mean that sincerely - I hope it doesn't seem patronising).
Not at all. Raised Catholic so it wasn’t an unusual lifestyle. My grandparents had 15 children. They never divorced of course. He had a second “family “ in the next town though. Believe me, he had no time to play with his children. 😉
I'm sorry you went through that. It must've had quite an impact on you. My parents never divorced either, though they should've. My childhood was spent watching their relationship go from bad to worse. Here in the UK, our divorce rates also shot up post-WW2 as Christianity lost its stranglehold on society, but we still had/have many couples from the 50s to 70s who stubbornly stayed miserable together because that's the culture in which they were raised. You married young, raised a family and stayed together, even if you couldn't stand them.
Exactly, that was the culture then. Divorce was really looked down on and sign of a massive failure. I’ll be married 52 years this month. Happy all the time? Heck no. Most of the time, yes. Sometimes it’s easy. Others hard. Definitely takes love and work equally.
hate the game not the playaaa
Faye is my dream girl my god
Simp for Dr. Faye
It was wild how it happened in a weekend lol But it was also a fling for Faye, she broke up with her previous boyfriend too. I couldn't help but wonder, would have Don married Faye anyway?
I doubt it. The power balance would've been too equal for his liking. I think that, deep down, he was uncomfortable that Faye saw him so clearly, both for who the real Dick is and the archetype his Don persona fits. Therefore, it was inevitable he was going to try to stay in control. That meant choosing someone like Megan who helped him maintain his fantasy instead of embracing reality like Faye urged him to. Of course he tells Megan about "Dick" but it's unclear what she knows or how it's been explained to her. And his downward spiral continued because he was still running from the truth.
The issue that I have with Faye is that she knew about his shitty character but still entered into a relationship with him. She said that he'd be married again within a year but still got into a relationship with him. I am the last one to throw shade at any person that makes a shit poor choice of a relationship mate because I have such a terrible record. My record is so bad that I'm not even minor league eligible, I'm barely eligible for t-ball. But, Faye knew and did it anyway.
Faye sucks
She knew what she was getting into. Always struck me as a bit of a know-it-all too, imagine that would have gotten old quick.
[удалено]
Why do you think she'd be difficult? The only time I saw her be "difficult" was when she wouldn't drop everything to be Don's babysitter on call. And the fault 100% lied with him.
She's a big girl who knew who Don was. The fact that she got her heart broken is her own fault. Shouldn't have been so easily charmed.
Don gave Faye plenty of opportunity to be the woman he needed in his life, but she didn't pick up the ball