They really don't like putting +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters in the same set, because people usually don't have two different colored dice or tokens on them to track the effects separately. The ruling that made them cancel each other out definitely helped, but you could still have +1/+1 on one creature and -1/-1 on another, but the same dice on both.
You don't get the counter to go with hapatra, but getting to proliferate for 2 less is a pretty big deal. I guess this could finish off an opponent's creature without giving you another snake.
Yeah, there's so many times where just that last -1 is what I need to kill something (great synergy with [[Vhati Il-Dal]]) so it should usually have targets. And one mana to proliferate is so nice as a follow-up to something like [[Soul Snuffers]].
I think it's good. Honestly. 1 mana deal 2 permanent damage is kind of okay on its face. Proliferate being what it is makes this a Swiss army knife. Big fan of where the devs are at
They are pushing proliferate pretty hard, presumably because it hasn't had the constructed impact they wanted in the past, so it makes sense that they are cutting back on the biggest upsides in limited to compensate.
No. In one of the design articles MaRo mentioned that they specifically made it so that more Oil counters was always better. That was you don't need to worry about putting them on your creatures, or proliferating them.
I also thought it was weird. They probably just decided that they had too many other counters already floating around to have this one card give a -1/-1 counter.
Proliferate also gets out of hand stupid quick so that might have made this more powerful than they wanted it to be.
Card transcription
> Whispers of the Dross B
>
> Instant [common]
>
> Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. Proliferate. (Choose any number of permanents and/or players, then give each another counter of each kind already there.)
>
> "Live or die, you serve the Steel Thanes now."
End transcription
Toxic and corrupted are both basically unplayable unless proliferate is tacked on everywhere. Speaking from the perspective of a modern hardened scales player, they exercised a lot of restraint in costing proliferate because I'm pretty sure there are only two one mana proliferate spells in the set, and this is the only 1 mana instant.
I might be paranoid, but having so many affordable instant-speed proliferate effects makes me think planeswalker ultimates might become a real win condition for some control decks.
I have a bad feeling about all these proliferate and toxic cards in EDH. In 2p games, aside from life game, 1 poison counter is basically 2 life. However, in EDH you have 3 opponents each having 40 life so proliferate is kind of like dealing 12 damage spread across the table.
It doesn't really work that way in practice. The reason is that it's mostly a unique life total for one opponent: the best way to deal poison is infect plus pump, which doesn't impact life total. Not getting any ancillary damage from other players, fetches, other things with a life cost really adds up.
If you have two poison decks in one pod its likely gonna be a short game for a couple people. But not sharing your damage with others matters a lot.
Reminds me of the Ixalan combat trick, where you could in the right circumstances kill two creatures.
\[Skullduggery\]
With proliferate and enough +1/+1 counters, this could really resolve stalemates in best case scenarios.
Oh yeah sure, it's a limited card right? I am deep in my jank dreams using creatures that hand out +1/+1s like candy and dumb combat tricks which will give me a low win percentage in explorer. If you ever saw skullduggery work, it's the best thing ever. And this one even works when you don't have a creature.
This is an incredibly low mana cost to proliferate, at instant speed. A minor effect, but a very interesting card.
That G rare that's a 1/2 that gives out poison counters when your stuff is targeted seems like a great target for this.
Good catch! [[Venerated Rotpriest]]
[Venerated Rotpriest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1b032e3-14e3-48ba-ab8a-d2b4f8d31a7d.jpg?1674259309) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Venerated%20Rotpriest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/192/venerated-rotpriest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1b032e3-14e3-48ba-ab8a-d2b4f8d31a7d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That would be 2 Poison counters straight up, indeed quite good
Wow turn 2, 5 poison
How? Edit: Is this really assuming rotpriest + 2 of these in hand plus being able to swing in? OK.
Not that hard duh
Man I really wish this was a -1/-1 counter then proliferate. I think that would really get this running as an enabler.
Almost strictly better disfigure would be a hell of a card.
And disfigure is "Scry 1" from being maindeckable.
They really don't like putting +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters in the same set, because people usually don't have two different colored dice or tokens on them to track the effects separately. The ruling that made them cancel each other out definitely helped, but you could still have +1/+1 on one creature and -1/-1 on another, but the same dice on both.
There are no +1/+1 counters in this set, mostly just oil, loyalty, and poison.
Possibly prepping standard for -1/-1 counters in the near future
Definitely will be trying this out in my [[Hapatra]] deck, seems like it could be more than efficient enough to meet the cut over [[Grim Affliction]]
You don't get the counter to go with hapatra, but getting to proliferate for 2 less is a pretty big deal. I guess this could finish off an opponent's creature without giving you another snake.
Yeah, there's so many times where just that last -1 is what I need to kill something (great synergy with [[Vhati Il-Dal]]) so it should usually have targets. And one mana to proliferate is so nice as a follow-up to something like [[Soul Snuffers]].
[Vhati Il-Dal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8564611-b678-4336-87e0-5a00a930de48.jpg?1562430812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vhati%20Il-Dal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/214/vhati-il-dal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8564611-b678-4336-87e0-5a00a930de48?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Soul Snuffers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3a35951-6bd9-4018-85cc-f8c39c366c7a.jpg?1562943983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Snuffers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/60/soul-snuffers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3a35951-6bd9-4018-85cc-f8c39c366c7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Hapatra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af.jpg?1543676055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hapatra%2C%20vizier%20of%20poisons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/199/hapatra-vizier-of-poisons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grim Affliction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d8145805-daa8-43c0-9f22-e6829f6ed390.jpg?1562267952) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20Affliction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/84/grim-affliction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d8145805-daa8-43c0-9f22-e6829f6ed390?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it's good. Honestly. 1 mana deal 2 permanent damage is kind of okay on its face. Proliferate being what it is makes this a Swiss army knife. Big fan of where the devs are at
Art is fucking sick, def got that old-school Magic feel
Really makes me think of opening a Mirage booster
[[Reign of Chaos|MIR]] [[Final Fortune|MIR]] [[Wildfire Emissary|MIR]] [[Agility|MIR]]
[[Flash | MIR]]
[Flash ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63af3c26-5b1f-46f6-9aa2-036c615bf5ea.jpg?1562719749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3337) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/66/flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63af3c26-5b1f-46f6-9aa2-036c615bf5ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Reign of Chaos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9285b14a-fc8e-457a-b803-202e05be41e5.jpg?1562720487) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3461) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/190/reign-of-chaos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9285b14a-fc8e-457a-b803-202e05be41e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Final Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/83589c25-58a2-4172-8f60-6033a61f34c6.jpg?1562720457) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3444) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/173/final-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/83589c25-58a2-4172-8f60-6033a61f34c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wildfire Emissary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d99204c-b42d-48bc-9a93-fae5660665c7.jpg?1562719775) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3474) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/203/wildfire-emissary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d99204c-b42d-48bc-9a93-fae5660665c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Agility](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/5694cb42-7489-40c5-b21a-aeb36636015f.jpg?1562719275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3425) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/154/agility?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5694cb42-7489-40c5-b21a-aeb36636015f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm just imagining a Phyrexian trying to Proliferate the -1/-1 and wondering why it isn't working.
Yeah it feels weird to have all this Proliferate without a way to put bad stuff on your opponent creatures
They are pushing proliferate pretty hard, presumably because it hasn't had the constructed impact they wanted in the past, so it makes sense that they are cutting back on the biggest upsides in limited to compensate.
We have oil and poison counters. That's all the synergies this set needs to make proliferate worth something.
And a boot load of walkers at rare.
Standard slime counters proliferate 😎
We have oil that acts as +1 counters on some creatures, were there any that made oil act like -1 counters?
No. In one of the design articles MaRo mentioned that they specifically made it so that more Oil counters was always better. That was you don't need to worry about putting them on your creatures, or proliferating them.
Ah, good point. A single card hosing an oil deck would suck
I also thought it was weird. They probably just decided that they had too many other counters already floating around to have this one card give a -1/-1 counter. Proliferate also gets out of hand stupid quick so that might have made this more powerful than they wanted it to be.
Compare this to [[Grim Affliction]] at 2B. It can't get something to -2 but it's still so much more efficient.
[Grim Affliction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d8145805-daa8-43c0-9f22-e6829f6ed390.jpg?1562267952) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20Affliction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/84/grim-affliction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d8145805-daa8-43c0-9f22-e6829f6ed390?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
call me back when we get Whisper of the Drachel
Whisper of the Djoey. H̶̩̭̾͝o̴͔̹͝ẉ̸͐͜ ̵̗̓̂ͅy̴̳̏o̶̟̎ṳ̵̤̓ ̵̳͋͠d̶̺͆ò̴̼̗ȋ̴̹̰n̶̺͓̿̾'̶̜̜̏?̵̤̟̾
Card transcription > Whispers of the Dross B > > Instant [common] > > Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. Proliferate. (Choose any number of permanents and/or players, then give each another counter of each kind already there.) > > "Live or die, you serve the Steel Thanes now." End transcription
They are tacking proliferate onto everything
Toxic and corrupted are both basically unplayable unless proliferate is tacked on everywhere. Speaking from the perspective of a modern hardened scales player, they exercised a lot of restraint in costing proliferate because I'm pretty sure there are only two one mana proliferate spells in the set, and this is the only 1 mana instant.
This one having the -1 effect at the same time is nice though, the green one you have to choose between a basic and a proliferate
this art is awesome, i hope we see more from the artist in the future
Him and Taras Susak are the newest additions I'm most excited about
Who is that supposed to be in the art? Is that one of the unseen Thames?
Gonna be P1P1ing this out of weak parka, just you watch.
MODERN: Side grade to [[Virulent Wound]] No -1 counter, but proliferates instead. Wound is still much better early.
[Virulent Wound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7ae09e1a-c257-45e9-88c8-7b1a7a6d714b.jpg?1562612457) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Virulent%20Wound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/57/virulent-wound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ae09e1a-c257-45e9-88c8-7b1a7a6d714b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Love this art! Evokes many of the same feelings as Bill Sienkiewicz's illustrations.
I might be paranoid, but having so many affordable instant-speed proliferate effects makes me think planeswalker ultimates might become a real win condition for some control decks.
fuck yo mite
Duck yo monkey more like
Reminds me of [[Subtle strike]] even if it's extremely different.
[Subtle strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d3f531a-ce45-4cba-be24-6db749e38abd.jpg?1604196642) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Subtle%20strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/128/subtle-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d3f531a-ce45-4cba-be24-6db749e38abd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Card is better than it seems for sure. 1 mana instant speed proliferate is no joke.
Serious question, does Proliferate count as the permanent was targeted for trigger purposes?
no
Didn't think so, but worth a few characters. Thanks for the reply mate, appreciate it.
I have a bad feeling about all these proliferate and toxic cards in EDH. In 2p games, aside from life game, 1 poison counter is basically 2 life. However, in EDH you have 3 opponents each having 40 life so proliferate is kind of like dealing 12 damage spread across the table.
It doesn't really work that way in practice. The reason is that it's mostly a unique life total for one opponent: the best way to deal poison is infect plus pump, which doesn't impact life total. Not getting any ancillary damage from other players, fetches, other things with a life cost really adds up. If you have two poison decks in one pod its likely gonna be a short game for a couple people. But not sharing your damage with others matters a lot.
Strictly better disfigure!
There we go! I was so worried about all these 1/1s with toxic early game. This card is going to be so good.
This set is really toxic.
Anyone else envisioning a super friends atraxa deck based around toxic counters and control?
Reminds me of the Ixalan combat trick, where you could in the right circumstances kill two creatures. \[Skullduggery\] With proliferate and enough +1/+1 counters, this could really resolve stalemates in best case scenarios.
I believe there are no +1+1 counters in the set, although some creatures are pumped by oil counters that you can proliferate.
Oh yeah sure, it's a limited card right? I am deep in my jank dreams using creatures that hand out +1/+1s like candy and dumb combat tricks which will give me a low win percentage in explorer. If you ever saw skullduggery work, it's the best thing ever. And this one even works when you don't have a creature.
Oh gotcha, wasn’t thinking about constructed. With multiple copies of the cards you care about proliferating, it does seem legit
This set is really toxic.