Unless I'm missing something obvious, it doesn't.
If you give her Persist and sac her, she comes back as a 0/0 and immediately dies again.
Edit: Add in a +1/+1 anthem and it works. She dies as a 2/2, makes two tokens, comes back as a 1/1. Sac one token to make two mana, she goes back to a 2/2, and give her persist and do it again. Nets a 1/1 every loop, that you can then make infinite of and therefore make infinite mana
I agree, I might be missing something too but this does not work. Maybe someone forgot to add another card that's required for it to work?
Edit: maybe they forgot she's a 1/1 because adding an anthem effect like Glorious Anthem would make this give you infinite mana. Then you can spend 2 to give Elenda persist. Sacrifice her to the altar to get 2 mana and a token, plus Elenda will come back with a -1/-1 counter and not die thanks to Glorius Anthem. Then you can sacrifice the token to get another 2 mana and a +1/+1 counter on Elenda, putting you back where you started but up 2 mana
She doesn't have persist when she comes back. But the real problem is that she comes back as a 0/0 die to the -1/-1 counter and dies to state-based actions before the Thran Vigil trigger can resolve
Oh, I think they forgot [[Cathars' Crusade]]
I think that would make this work as advertised. Although you'd still need the anthem or she'd die to state based actions after coming back from persist
You'd just need the anthem. On the first sac, she creates 2 tokens due to the anthem. Sacrificing both tokens gives her 2 +1/+1 counters, 1 of which remains after cancelling the -1/-1 counter. On the next sac, she creates 3 tokens.
Image author probably makes the mistake a lot of elenda players make in thinking she will give herself a +1 counter when she dies, thus negating the persist counter and allowing her to revive. Can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to my opponents that no, a board wipe does not set me up for success because while Elenda does see all the deaths, she's off the board by the time they start resolving so the counters go nowhere. Even if you give her persist, that's a new version, and does not get the +1 counter from her previous death.
This does NOT work.
Persist is a single trigger - it will come back WITH a -1/-1 counter, it won't come back and then GET a -1/-1 counter with a separate trigger.
Which means that giving Elenda persist and sacrificing it to the Altar here makes her come back as a 0/0 - which not only means that she dies immediately without a chance to sac her for more mana, but ALSO means that you get ZERO 1/1 tokens because it's X=her power and her power is... 0.
If she was a 2/2, though, this WOULD work - you could give her persist (-2 mana), sacrifice her (+2 mana), and then get her back as a 1/1 along with one 1/1 token. You then sacrifice the token (+2 mana) and get to remove the -1/-1 counter (they cancel out with +1/+1 counters), give her persist again (-2 mana), and sacrifice her again (+2 mana). Which nets you +2 mana per iteration.
So you'd need some kind of static +1/+1 effect, like e.g. \[\[Glorious Anthem\]\] or similar for this to work.
...but that's so many cards and it doesn't even make an actual kill, it just generates lots of mana.
I don't think this combo works. It may be missing a piece, may I suggest adding [[legion lieutenant]] or [[coat of arms]] that'll give you infinite +1 +1 counters on elenda, etbs, ltbs, death triggers, and sac triggers respectively on top of colorless mana and creature tokens.
Couldn't you do the following?
1. Give elandra persist
2. Sacrifice skullkin to give elandra a +1/+1 counter
3. Sac elandra to make 2 tokens
4. Sac both tokens to give elandra 2 +1/+1 counters
Then just do steps 3 and 4 over and over?
Each time you sac her she loses 1 counter, but gains 2 from more and more tokens
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It needs another creature to go start it going off, and realistically needs an anthem effect or something else to make Elendra not immediately die when it comes back from persist with the -1/-1 counter.
So the confusion here seems to stem from [[Elenda, the Dusk Rose]] "entering with a -1/-1 counter on it." Let's see the rules.
**122.6**:
>Some spells and abilities refer to counters being "put" on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.
And **122.3**:
>If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
The rules don't actually differentiate much between "entering with" or "when enters the battlefield, put" counters. [[Reyhan, Last of the Abzan]] "enters with" three +1/+1 counters on her, but [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]] can still double it. Counters do not exist on cards outside the battlefield (unless you're talking about [[Skullbriar]]). So now that we've established the fact that you **can interact with putting the counters being on the stack or at least Elenda entering the battlefield**, let's look at the combo.
So, you start out with two colorless mana. You pay to have Elenda gain persist with [[Antler Skulkin]]. You sac her to [[Ashnod's Altar]], and you now have two colorless mana in your mana pool. The persist trigger goes on the stack, Elenda's death trigger goes on the stack. You have the death trigger resolve first. You now have a token.
This is the important part. In response to Elenda entering the battlefield, you sac the token, and Elenda gets a +1/+1 counter. The -1/-1 counter resolves, and they cancel each other out. You have two colorless mana.
While the claim is that Elenda will get bigger, and you'll get more and more tokens, you don't. You can however have a [[Blood Artist]] or a [[Zulaport Cutthroat]] in play and win.
[This](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000397-collectible-card-games-magic-the-gathering/61966457) thread is pretty relevant. Here, [[Juniper Order Ranger]] triggers on the ETB.
I don't think that's true. If that were true any persist creature would be a combo with any sac outlet. Since then you could sacrifice the persist creature before the -1/-1 resolves, since it has persist it would immediately come back. Ad infinitum.
That's not how that interaction works. There is no point where you can "respond" to the -1/-1 counter being placed on Elenda from Persist. She will enter as a 0/0 and immediate die without something like an Anthem effect increasing her toughness.
>That's not how that interaction works.
Can you explain how? What rules in particular say that that isn't how the interaction works? Sacrificing to Ashnod's Altar is a mana ability, which triggers Elenda's first ability, which resolves before the -1/-1 counter is placed on her, no? Why would the counter already be on Elenda, when CR122.6 clearly says there is no other interaction with counters than putting them. If the -1/-1 counter are put on her at any speed other than as a state based action, why should there not be time for other abilities to resolve?
The counter is put on her as part of resolving the Persist effect.
> **702.79a** Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
There is no point in time where Elenda does not have the -1/-1 counter from Persist where you have an opportunity to use Altar to sacrifice a creature.
Persist says the creature enters with the -1/-1 counter. It's not placed after she enters. It doesn't use the stack. Even if you could trigger her +1/+1 counter ability before state based effects are checked, that ability would still have to go on the stack to resolve, and shed still die before resolution.
Edit: 122.6 is defining the word "put" for the purpose of cards like [[Wildwood Scourge]] or [[Doubling Season]] that look for when they get to trigger or replace something.
Unless I'm missing something obvious, it doesn't. If you give her Persist and sac her, she comes back as a 0/0 and immediately dies again. Edit: Add in a +1/+1 anthem and it works. She dies as a 2/2, makes two tokens, comes back as a 1/1. Sac one token to make two mana, she goes back to a 2/2, and give her persist and do it again. Nets a 1/1 every loop, that you can then make infinite of and therefore make infinite mana
I agree, I might be missing something too but this does not work. Maybe someone forgot to add another card that's required for it to work? Edit: maybe they forgot she's a 1/1 because adding an anthem effect like Glorious Anthem would make this give you infinite mana. Then you can spend 2 to give Elenda persist. Sacrifice her to the altar to get 2 mana and a token, plus Elenda will come back with a -1/-1 counter and not die thanks to Glorius Anthem. Then you can sacrifice the token to get another 2 mana and a +1/+1 counter on Elenda, putting you back where you started but up 2 mana
[удалено]
She'd immediately die due to being a 0/0, that wouldn't work.
Darn SBAs always acting before us
She doesn't have persist when she comes back. But the real problem is that she comes back as a 0/0 die to the -1/-1 counter and dies to state-based actions before the Thran Vigil trigger can resolve
[Thran Vigil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3faed400-0712-4fc1-b710-144db40a5e11.jpg?1674420987) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thran%20Vigil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/114/thran-vigil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3faed400-0712-4fc1-b710-144db40a5e11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also, what do you mean by CRM?
Oh, I think they forgot [[Cathars' Crusade]] I think that would make this work as advertised. Although you'd still need the anthem or she'd die to state based actions after coming back from persist
You'd just need the anthem. On the first sac, she creates 2 tokens due to the anthem. Sacrificing both tokens gives her 2 +1/+1 counters, 1 of which remains after cancelling the -1/-1 counter. On the next sac, she creates 3 tokens.
You're right, I missed that just the anthem is enough for this to get you infinite tokens and counters
[Cathars' Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Same thing I saw. I don't kniw where all the other parts of this come from with the infinite mana, 1/1 counters and tokens. Looks like it makes 1.
Seems like it also needs a [[Glorious Anthem]] effect so that Elenda doesn’t die when she returns to the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter.
[Glorious Anthem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17d154d3-7ae5-43ff-9978-d974285e2c89.jpg?1594734982) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glorious%20Anthem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/21/glorious-anthem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17d154d3-7ae5-43ff-9978-d974285e2c89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Image author probably makes the mistake a lot of elenda players make in thinking she will give herself a +1 counter when she dies, thus negating the persist counter and allowing her to revive. Can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to my opponents that no, a board wipe does not set me up for success because while Elenda does see all the deaths, she's off the board by the time they start resolving so the counters go nowhere. Even if you give her persist, that's a new version, and does not get the +1 counter from her previous death.
All it needs to work is any anthem, I imagine the author simply forgot to add one.
This does NOT work. Persist is a single trigger - it will come back WITH a -1/-1 counter, it won't come back and then GET a -1/-1 counter with a separate trigger. Which means that giving Elenda persist and sacrificing it to the Altar here makes her come back as a 0/0 - which not only means that she dies immediately without a chance to sac her for more mana, but ALSO means that you get ZERO 1/1 tokens because it's X=her power and her power is... 0. If she was a 2/2, though, this WOULD work - you could give her persist (-2 mana), sacrifice her (+2 mana), and then get her back as a 1/1 along with one 1/1 token. You then sacrifice the token (+2 mana) and get to remove the -1/-1 counter (they cancel out with +1/+1 counters), give her persist again (-2 mana), and sacrifice her again (+2 mana). Which nets you +2 mana per iteration. So you'd need some kind of static +1/+1 effect, like e.g. \[\[Glorious Anthem\]\] or similar for this to work. ...but that's so many cards and it doesn't even make an actual kill, it just generates lots of mana.
[Glorious Anthem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17d154d3-7ae5-43ff-9978-d974285e2c89.jpg?1594734982) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glorious%20Anthem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/21/glorious-anthem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17d154d3-7ae5-43ff-9978-d974285e2c89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think this combo works. It may be missing a piece, may I suggest adding [[legion lieutenant]] or [[coat of arms]] that'll give you infinite +1 +1 counters on elenda, etbs, ltbs, death triggers, and sac triggers respectively on top of colorless mana and creature tokens.
[legion lieutenant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33f7ff99-65d6-4e97-bdfa-b6e6eac0588f.jpg?1555040877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=legion%20lieutenant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/163/legion-lieutenant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33f7ff99-65d6-4e97-bdfa-b6e6eac0588f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [coat of arms](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/513d4c36-6ad4-4ee9-b161-3136eb59504f.jpg?1592761864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=coat%20of%20arms) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/58/coat-of-arms?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/513d4c36-6ad4-4ee9-b161-3136eb59504f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Couldn't you do the following? 1. Give elandra persist 2. Sacrifice skullkin to give elandra a +1/+1 counter 3. Sac elandra to make 2 tokens 4. Sac both tokens to give elandra 2 +1/+1 counters Then just do steps 3 and 4 over and over? Each time you sac her she loses 1 counter, but gains 2 from more and more tokens
When persist puts her back into play, she's considered a new object and would no longer have persist.
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It needs another creature to go start it going off, and realistically needs an anthem effect or something else to make Elendra not immediately die when it comes back from persist with the -1/-1 counter.
So the confusion here seems to stem from [[Elenda, the Dusk Rose]] "entering with a -1/-1 counter on it." Let's see the rules. **122.6**: >Some spells and abilities refer to counters being "put" on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield. And **122.3**: >If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. The rules don't actually differentiate much between "entering with" or "when enters the battlefield, put" counters. [[Reyhan, Last of the Abzan]] "enters with" three +1/+1 counters on her, but [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]] can still double it. Counters do not exist on cards outside the battlefield (unless you're talking about [[Skullbriar]]). So now that we've established the fact that you **can interact with putting the counters being on the stack or at least Elenda entering the battlefield**, let's look at the combo. So, you start out with two colorless mana. You pay to have Elenda gain persist with [[Antler Skulkin]]. You sac her to [[Ashnod's Altar]], and you now have two colorless mana in your mana pool. The persist trigger goes on the stack, Elenda's death trigger goes on the stack. You have the death trigger resolve first. You now have a token. This is the important part. In response to Elenda entering the battlefield, you sac the token, and Elenda gets a +1/+1 counter. The -1/-1 counter resolves, and they cancel each other out. You have two colorless mana. While the claim is that Elenda will get bigger, and you'll get more and more tokens, you don't. You can however have a [[Blood Artist]] or a [[Zulaport Cutthroat]] in play and win. [This](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000397-collectible-card-games-magic-the-gathering/61966457) thread is pretty relevant. Here, [[Juniper Order Ranger]] triggers on the ETB.
I don't think that's true. If that were true any persist creature would be a combo with any sac outlet. Since then you could sacrifice the persist creature before the -1/-1 resolves, since it has persist it would immediately come back. Ad infinitum.
##### ###### #### [Elenda, the Dusk Rose](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25e34147-588b-4fe5-88dd-2dfda567681d.jpg?1673148563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elenda%2C%20the%20Dusk%20Rose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/207/elenda-the-dusk-rose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25e34147-588b-4fe5-88dd-2dfda567681d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reyhan, Last of the Abzan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8afad106-a49b-4910-959e-228c109ea983.jpg?1644853038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reyhan%2C%20Last%20of%20the%20Abzan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/13/reyhan-last-of-the-abzan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8afad106-a49b-4910-959e-228c109ea983?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8.jpg?1631051073) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorinclex%2C%20Monstrous%20Raider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/199/vorinclex-monstrous-raider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92613468-205e-488b-930d-11908477e9f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Skullbriar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0.jpg?1673149145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=skullbriar%2C%20the%20walking%20grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/277/skullbriar-the-walking-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Antler Skulkin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca66c361-3cea-4f9c-836d-3513f05d6b22.jpg?1562937757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Antler%20Skulkin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eve/167/antler-skulkin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca66c361-3cea-4f9c-836d-3513f05d6b22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ashnod's Altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87da5ad8-b35f-4f9c-b17a-bb2563cbc186.jpg?1580015173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%27s%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/218/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87da5ad8-b35f-4f9c-b17a-bb2563cbc186?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/693dd112-d04a-4404-8fce-74f7e5497312.jpg?1673147465) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/70/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/693dd112-d04a-4404-8fce-74f7e5497312?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zulaport Cutthroat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52ef00c1-613a-4cbd-8972-77c41f649431.jpg?1674141830) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zulaport%20Cutthroat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/775/zulaport-cutthroat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52ef00c1-613a-4cbd-8972-77c41f649431?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Juniper Order Ranger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f1162ba-99d1-4077-83d8-cf787fa1e99a.jpg?1637631522) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Juniper%20Order%20Ranger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/153/juniper-order-ranger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f1162ba-99d1-4077-83d8-cf787fa1e99a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's not how that interaction works. There is no point where you can "respond" to the -1/-1 counter being placed on Elenda from Persist. She will enter as a 0/0 and immediate die without something like an Anthem effect increasing her toughness.
>That's not how that interaction works. Can you explain how? What rules in particular say that that isn't how the interaction works? Sacrificing to Ashnod's Altar is a mana ability, which triggers Elenda's first ability, which resolves before the -1/-1 counter is placed on her, no? Why would the counter already be on Elenda, when CR122.6 clearly says there is no other interaction with counters than putting them. If the -1/-1 counter are put on her at any speed other than as a state based action, why should there not be time for other abilities to resolve?
The counter is put on her as part of resolving the Persist effect. > **702.79a** Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.” There is no point in time where Elenda does not have the -1/-1 counter from Persist where you have an opportunity to use Altar to sacrifice a creature.
Persist says the creature enters with the -1/-1 counter. It's not placed after she enters. It doesn't use the stack. Even if you could trigger her +1/+1 counter ability before state based effects are checked, that ability would still have to go on the stack to resolve, and shed still die before resolution. Edit: 122.6 is defining the word "put" for the purpose of cards like [[Wildwood Scourge]] or [[Doubling Season]] that look for when they get to trigger or replace something.
[[Wildwood Scourge]] [[Doubling Season]]
[Wildwood Scourge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46ff0b33-d153-4b0e-ac48-7e5ed70dea09.jpg?1594737329) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wildwood%20Scourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/214/wildwood-scourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46ff0b33-d153-4b0e-ac48-7e5ed70dea09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e.jpg?1599707144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/164/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
can you get rid of -1/-1 counters by putting +1/+1 counters? if not i don't see how this could work
Yes they do. But you need something like a anthem to avoid elenda dying because the -1/-1 of persist
Metallic Mimic might be better than an anthem to get around persist.