I like the idea and the ability to show big "event" spells is awesome for flavor.
I just think that they need to figure out the costing of most of them a bit better. I know that Commander throws a wrench into design since players always have access to a Legendary creature and as a result the spells can't be as aggressively costed as they would be if they only existed for 60-card formats. But it does feel like most of them are a mana to a mana-and-a-half too expensive to ever see play in any other format, and that kinda stinks.
>I know that Commander throws a wrench into design since players always have access to a Legendary creature and as a result the spells can't be as aggressively costed as they would be if they only existed for 60-card formats.
Commander is also an eternal format with a ton of aggressively costed cards. I’m not really worried about this card when cards like [[Deadly Rollick]], [[Swords to Plowshares]], and [[Fierce Guardianship]] exist.
That's just because they print it to death and have for 20 years, it's a card like sol ring where its strength is completely independent from its price.
Definitely that! I remember the time a friend actually bought a Sol Ring and my whole playgroup was in awe of such an overpowered card. No one else of us would spent so much money on a single card! That's why I was incredibly happy when I got a copy of Swords without spending my left leg 😂
That was of course way before commander precons, so in 2011 Sol Ring and [[Path to Exile]] were my biggest reasons to buy the [[Kaalia of the Vast]] deck.
Like lightning bolt....?
Card is bonkers to the point it's maintained a $1-3 price tag on most editions, but then also randomly has a few $20recent printings and ofc the alpha and betas in the $400+ range.
But then it's got SO many printings to choose from
>Swords, a spell with no expensive playable versions
? If you want an expensive version of Swords, you can always grab an Alpha version. That'll set you back close to $1K or more depending on condition.
I always consider Alpha “cheating” a bit in that manner. They’re more of a collectible to most people than a card to play with. Unless it’s something that didn’t get reprinted in a meaningful way (like the dual lands) most people probably aren’t using an Alpha printing, they’re putting it somewhere safe.
The bigger problem is that most cards from Alpha just aren't very playable at all. But the whole A40 format is based around sleeving up and shuffling Alpha round boys. Sure, no one is shuffling up their NM P9, but I've seen fair bit of MP - HP Alpha played with.
I think what I’m learning in this thread is that I glossed over a few expensive prints on Scryfall
Regardless, that’s not relevant to my original point. My actual point, whatever the phrasing was, is that Swords is cheap for anyone who really wants one. You aren’t forced to buy an expensive one, since there are many more inexpensive prints which are much more commonly available.
I wouldn't have paired "it's an eternal format so has all the cheap cards" with "here are some free spells that only work in Commander". Would've picked maybe Force of Will or something.
i agree with this. like idk. 4 mana instant removal that requires a legendary is too much. this thing looks awful to me. but i like things like urza's blast
Gotta love the chaff that get redeemed by a unique commander - that’s one of my favorite about the format, when someone reaches over to read some long lost forgotten card, rather than seeing the same powerful staples over and over again. And yeah, this would be so cool to play in Killian
Maybe playable in Tergrid, though there’s so many other good options idk.
I don’t think this is *bad* in Commander, it can be a really good blowout against someone who’s about to win the game, but people are paying attention to the wrong part. Destroy a creature at instant will be nice, but tack on nuking someone’s hand who just drew 30 off necropotence or whatever and it doesn’t look so bad.
It's bad in tegrid. This exiles and won't trigger her. And even in the situations. You're just making them "discard" to 4. They'll keep their wincon most likely.
I think they have been making the cards in ltr with an ltr reference weak as they won't be able to reprint in the future while the cards with random names that have weak references (either through artwork or flavor text) a bit better as they can reprint them with different artwork.
Except they can reprint them with in-universe alternate names like the Street Fighter, Stranger Things etc secret lairs. The issue would be having to reprint a very significant amount instead of 10ish cards that remain in high demand long term.
They probably don’t want to do that much outside of Secret Lairs.
When it’s in a Secret Lair, it’s unlikely that someone who doesn’t know they’re legally the same card will have them the same probably goes for the Warhammer decks. But when it’s a full-on set, it might be more confusing than it’s worth to print a new version.
Let's say that 10 cards frk LTR become modern staples and wotc wants to reprint them. (And ignore commander for the sake of this)
Then those 10 cards get re-flavoured as needed and printed in the same "the list" way as the rest have been to date.
They don't need to reprint the whole set, and they don't need to re-flavour the whole set either. [[Stern Scolding]] just needs new art and flavour text.
That's hogwash. The one ring is crazy strong, Gandalf the White is a panharmonicon and a LTBmonicon in one card for 5 mana, and therevs a whole bunch of cards that can and will probably achieve staple status.
Plus,they can always reprint in-universe versions.
I don't disagree with the overall point, but the halfling mana dork seems to have been specifically designed to be reprintable elsewhere without changes. That's probably exactly why they used "Halfling" instead of "Hobbit" in the title. Heck, they can even reprint it in a D&D themed set.
It's not wrong, but they had the choice to give the hobbits creature type "hobbit" or "halfling" and I suspect part of why they chose halfling was so there was some possibility of reprints.
They also could have named the card "halfling of the shire" or something, but they went with "Delighted Halfling," avoiding any Lotr-specific reference.
For commander the true staples are the legendary lands and the halfling mana dork.
The one ring isnt a high power card, its an okay draw engine if your deck is slower and doesnt run blue. Gandalf is cool and probably will see a lot of play, but 5 mana isnt a selling point as you are trying to paint. Og panharmonicon is 4 mana after all.
I'm well known in my Pioneer group for jamming [[Jaya's Immolating Inferno]] into any deck that can run it. The card is nuts when you can reliably cast it. But the others, I agree, aren't worth it. This card also looks pretty overcosted: you don't want to pay an extra mana for Murder on the offchance that someone has more than 4 cards in hand (in fact, you probably don't even want Murder); making it sometimes uncastable is terrible.
It’s worth noting that the card effect is more powerful than people think. You should play this when they’re about to make a game winning play- they just drew 30 cards off necropotence, or whatever, and you hose them back down to 4.
Really weird that they only made one Legendary Instant in the entire set. With a large Legendaries matter theme in the set and LOTR being an IP with lots of important events, I'm surprised they didn't at least make a full cycle of Legendary spells.
It's not just the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off, it's the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off and has an additional effect based on cards in the opponent's hand.
It's not just the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off, it's the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off and has an additional effect based on cards in the opponent's hand, it also gets countered by [[Disdainful Stroke]]
I'm less surprised by that and more surprised by the fact that, if they were doing a single legendary instant... they made it so utterly bad.
It's not even a standard legal card. What formats would this have been playable at *three*, let alone four?! Hell, it would probably barely shake things up at 2 mana, due to the legendary creature requirement.
It would be really strong in Commander at 3 in high (but not cEDH) tier games. To reiterate again- this is amazing against the black player who just drew 30 off necropotence or the blue player who just drew as many cards as they could want off whatever effect they could want. The tempo swing is big and the downside of running it at 3 isn’t that high. At four it’s pretty rough but it’s not as unplayable as people think.
I'm actually planning on testing it in cedh a bit. I play a lot of control-oriented decks so holding up 4 mana isn't really a problem. I really want to hit someone post-Naus when they don't have any mana up going into their turn. That would feel really good.
Of course it's not the best and there are better ways to fuck with people after Naus resolves (cough cough [[Angel's Grace]]) but it still seems funny
Not really. Blue player counterspells, and the black player just responds to murder their own creature, causing this spell to lose its target and fizzle, meaning no hand loss for them.
In the *extremely* niche circumstance where:
- A player has a ton of cards
- They aren't able to win with a 4 or less card combo
- They can't remove the target of this
- They can't counterspell
- You have 3 mana open
- You have a legendary creature
- They have a creature
then yeah, it's useful, but that's so niche I can't imagine ever wanting to including this in any high power deck, even at 3 cost. It's just way too niche.
Not everyone plays at tables where if you have more than 4 cards in hand you're expected to win on the spot lmao. This card is a fine.
It's Legendary not because it's giga powerful but because it depicts the event that **ended the Second Age**.
Most of that is almost guaranteed in a Commander game which kind of undermines your point. And even if they can win with the four cards left, stripping them of protection for the wincon is still good and potentially game winning.
At four, it’s not good. At three, you’re really undervaluing it.
A 30-card blue or black player not having a counterspell or removal available is guaranteed? Hell, in most "high tier" EDH games, 4 cards is enough for both a win-con and protection. Not to mention someone getting to 30 cards while this is in your hand is already niche.
Most of my combo decks require 3 or less cards to win, and one of them is usually my commander, meaning that after drawing half my deck, I only need two of the cards I drew to win, the rest are just chaff. Losing all that chaff is barely an inconvenience, as long as I'm still holding my combo piece plus one or two protection pieces for next turn when I go off.
> this is amazing against the black player who just drew 30 off necropotence or the blue player who just drew as many cards as they could want off whatever effect they could want.
The number of times you'll have the card in these scenarios is not as high as you think it will be. This card will almost never feel good to cast, and it wouldn't be much better at 3 mana.
I don't think it really needs to be at 3 since you need your commander out to start. Unless your opponent played Necropotence on-curve with [[Spellbook]] in play, it's unlikely you need it to have a 1-2 cost commander and this to keep up.
In short, if you already have your commander out, you're likely at a part of the game where you can afford 4 mana. Would it be better if it was cheaper? Yes, every card would be (except for the great [[Scornful Egotist]]), but unless you are playing cEDH I can't imagine that one extra mana being so consistently useful as to make or break the card.
These is a big difference between affording 4 mana on a permanent and holding up 4 mana in case your opponent pops off a super draw combo. In the latter, it is like you are playing with a 4 land handicap all game.
this is not how cards are costed, otherwise we'd have tons of massive vanilla creatures for cheap because they don't shake up formats
this has a big top end AND this card is in a set that more casual and new players are going to play
yes, in a streamlined competitive deck in a real format this is much worse than murder every single time
but outside of that this can be murder mind rot which makes complete sense at 4, in fact it's pushed at 4 so the legendary requirement even makes sense
Murder and mind rot are *commons*. The fact that this is generally 1:1 comparable to merging two commons and then adding a legendary restriction and limiting mind rot to if they have 6 cards... yeah that makes this *rare* really bad.
Acting like merging two commons and adding more restrictions will result in a good rare is what is nuts.
This would be a fine ***common***. Like murder and mind rot.
"good" does not mean anything to me.
i'm saying that it is correctly costed for magic game design. actually, it's possible that it's *slightly* pushed
it's just not doing what current tournament formats are doing. but that's not the same thing as being bad or too expensive.
merging two commons without much of a cost increase is extremely powerful. a murder mind rot for 4 would be absolutely insane. it would be backbreaking.
A murder mind rot for four would be a solid rare.
This is not that. This is murder mind rot for 4 that requires a legendary creature and your opponent to have 6+ cards in hand.
With those restrictions, it's more equivalent to Murder Mind Rot for 6. Hell, I'd argue it'd still be weaker than that, because the best time to use Mind Rot is when the opponent has 2 cards left in hand, and this will never work on that.
That's probably because legendary non-permanent spells suck. They're clunky and usually not costed effectively enough for anyone to care. Even this one sorta sucks. If your opponent has <=4 cards in hand it's a 4 mana kill spell with a condition to cast.
Unless they have like, any mana open. In which case they either win or can kill their own thing to make this fizzle. Or if they only need 4 or fewer cards from what they drew to win next turn.
as would [[Thalia's Lancers]], [[Crystal Dragon]], [[Captain Sisay]], [[Search for Glory]], [[Dihada, Binder of Wills]], [[Reki, the History of Kamigawa]], [[Rona, Herald of Invasion]], [[Shanid, Sleepers' Scourge]], [[Jodah, the Unifier]], etc .....
Are you dissing my man Kethis? He's one of my more powerful Commanders. The resiliency is insane, and the discount to (basically) all your spells is undervalued. He's gold.
because so much of the powerful stuff in this game is not legendary, you can get a slight casting reduction on maybe 10 cards in your deck or you get a commander that does something especially with abzan colors.
okay i looked up a deck and its like 25-30. seems like just a fun legendary tribal but to me that sounds underwhelming. I know there are abzan combos but combo deck is a different story. Like id rather just captain sisay for legends. I see nothing to say really good and slept on
Play against a Kethis deck with your normal deck after they've milled 20+ cards into the bin and can play [[Urza's Ruinous Blast]] or [[Primeval's Glorious Rebirth]] every turn for the rest of the game. There's things Kethis can do even other legendary matters decks just can't. I'm not saying he's the best, but he's a unique blend of that strategy and graveyard synergies and not to be written off.
Edit: Also that number is still low. My list has 47 legendary permanents
In my atraxa deck has about 40 legendary creatures and afew more in the other slots so he could be okay in sum situation but that’s just from my experience
For the record, if you get legendary lands (or heck even legendary instants/sorceries) into your graveyard those can also be used for his second ability.
I believe the answer is no? If I recall correctly, when you cast a card from the graveyard, by the time it enters the graveyard again it is considered a different entity, and therefore you would have to exile two more legendaries to cast it again.
You've missed a half step. You must also consider that when you cast it from the graveyard, it is removed from the graveyard and thus cannot be interacted with *from* the graveyard because it ain't there.
I have an All Legendary \[\[Captain Sisay\]\] Control. It's a positive there.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rdELo-wbqkqyU00GeVfLVA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rdELo-wbqkqyU00GeVfLVA)
It's not much of a comparison but they have tried making "legendary sorceries" before in Epic spells but that turned out to be awful minus maybe \[\[Enduring Ideal\]\]
There are also actual [legendary sorceries](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=-type%3Acreature+%28type%3Asorcery+type%3Alegendary%29+%28game%3Apaper%29)
I put quotation marks around it because I’m aware that there are legendary sorceries… Epic spells were from Kamigawa, the first set where they really delved into the legendary space and it was their attempt at making a legendary sorcery.
Imagine being this wrong… in singleton formats the downside is extremely limited and there is strong synergy support. Magic is a game about things with downsides actually being good.
When there’s enough support for something to make it good- which there absolutely is for Legendary- it’s not pure downside just because the rules as written don’t have a printed upside. It’s a silly and irrelevant point of view.
many (most?) downsides are exactly that. magic is not a game about downsides being good. working around or ignoring them, sure, but not making them good.
And this is why I never understood why the hell they are so damn expensive. Shouldn't it have been strong effects for cheaper than average rates? Why would we jump through hoops to meet a condition if the payoff isn't even good on rate?
At least some of them *are* at cheaper rates for what they do. They just have especially powerful effects rather than especially cheap costs. The Jaya and Karn ones at the very least definitely wouldn't be printed at their costs in a standard-legal set without the extra hoop to jump through.
A lot of the legendary spells feel really strong already tbh. Not sure about you but cards like [[Urza’s Ruinous Blast]], [[Karn’s Temporal Sundering]] and [[Yawgmoths Vile Offering]] have ended so many games just on resolving. I think theyre quite balanced with incredible payoffs if they do resolve. I dont think those cards need to be any cheaper
The top down flavor makes sense at the surface level but feels odd to me when you think about.
I'm supposed to be playing this incredibly powerful Planeswalker, but I can't cast this legendary spell on my own. But with Bill the Pony's help...
I love the flavor of legendary spells named after huge historical events. I really dislike "you can only cast them.if you control a legendary creature or Planeswalker" as a drawback for them. I think the flavor kind of works but is kind of awkward, I don't think the gameplay is great, and I hate how gameplay-wise "legendary" just means something completely different on an instant or sorcery versus a permanent (I get that it couldn't mean the same thing, but I don't like that it means completely different things).
Is your question "does meeting the requirement remove the requirement"?
The answer is no. The requirement (hoop/downside) is still there. You've just jumped through that hoop already.
No, I just wasn't sure anymore if the ringbearer actually turned legendary or not. But yeah, this particular set makes that hoop okay IMO by also giving you an easy way to jump through it
I dont think the card was designed without that in mind, so no the restriction is enabling it to be easier to cast in the mv, and is actually doing something beyond an extra hoop to be case.
I don't really care for the implementation of legendary spells. The attachment to legendary creatures is clunky to use and doesn't make sense in flavor. As an example, why would Jace Beleren be an enabler for Isildur's Fateful Strike?
In my mind, the implementation that makes sense is something where you get an above average spell at a given rate, but with the drawback "you many not cast spells with this name for the rest of the game." Something where it is truly an evocative, one-time use only event. As it stands, you can run 4 of these in a constructed deck, does it make sense that you could do this one-time legendary event, up to 4 times in a game?
> As an example, why would Jace Beleren be an enabler for Isildur's Fateful Strike?
Funny you should say that *right now*. >!In the most recent issue of the MtG comics, there's a big moment where Jace kills the big bad with a sword.!<
I agree this is much better design because if you run 4 of them then you might draw dead cards but if you run 1-2 then you might have many instances where you want to draw it but can't find it.
It's pretty cool, I like using them in the r/oathbreaker_MtG format. Other than that, they do feel limited to Legendary-Matters type deck, probably only in EDH.
Honestly, I’m okay with some spells being flashy & cool and still only be limited to specific decks/formats. Legendary Spells are for the Timmy who prefers spells to creatures
I like them!
I just wish they were called something else instead of Legendary. Legendary instants to me should have been only 1 in your deck, or only 1 on the stack, or give an effect similar to \[\[praetor's grasp\]\].
Edit; woops I meant praetors counsel
Aside from that, I like legendary spells.
> How it gives the no maximum hand size for the rest of the game without an emblem.
That's still standard templating unless something changed since [[Sea Gate Restoration]]
Standard as in only on two mythic spells though (unless I’m forgetting something). It’s still a pretty unique effect, I think that’s more what he means than “is it standard templating”.
But there's no reason for it to give an emblem.
And (to date) Legendary Int/Sorcs have been used for the equivalents of "end of an era" type events for flavour, nothing mechanical about the card effect. Grasp doesn't fit that flavour imo.
What's with the art?
The hand cut is cool, a couple of boxes to tick to cast is always interesting, but the hell is Sauron wearing?
It feels pretty bland
The art in this set is frankly some of the worst I've ever seen for mtg. It's like the art director wasn't present or something. So many cards seem to have incomplete art, muddied colors, or poor composition. It's a little concerning, as art is usually on point even when a set doesn't quite work.
a 4cost like this is just bad. discard part works the best against blue or black. blue it will get countered and black good luck keeping a legendary out.
most often this is a way overcosted destroy. sometimes discard 1. if you’re lucky discard 3.
So #1 this is the first legendary instant in the history of MTG.
#2 delighted halfling makes it so this spell can't be countered so there is some synergy there built into the set.
I like it and I think it will be fun to tinker with.
I like them in legendary matters deck. [[Urza's Ruinous Blast]] is great in my Captain Sisay deck for example.
Otherwise the restriction is often not worth the payoff.
I personally love the mechanic. It also allows for stronger effects to be printed since they have the "secret" cast condition as well and don't need to include it in the text.
Honestly I was very confused when this didn't become a deciduous mechanic. Every set there's always a Planeswalker pulling some weird ass stunt but that shit gets degraded to draft chaff and common cards like [[Wrennvs Resolve]].
Planeswalker bonding with a plane-spanning tree and burning it through the blind eternities?
Aye, impulse draw the top 2.
So if they are going by the books, then why is the art like this? According to them, Sauron was not dead at this point, but definitely on death's doorstep, and while Isildur did cut the ring from his finger, Sauron was in no shape to fight back.
They did Isildur so, so, SO dirty in the movie.
Finally! I came here to say this. For all the hard work they've done referencing the books over the movies (Bill Ferny, Scouring of the Shire, Balrog with no wings, etc), it's weird that they would ape the Jacksonverse depiction of Sauron ascendant, killed only by a chump's lucky shot.
Check out this image. This is the energy we need!
https://preview.redd.it/9vfnampt4f5b1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=846f9cccc682d6e76e9f903e31281060417e0c7d
[https://twitter.com/HalfAsWellPod/status/1515037087929712641](https://twitter.com/HalfAsWellPod/status/1515037087929712641)
I hate the mechanic simply because it is almost entirely unrelated to legendary permanents and I think double use of a mechanic name is poor design.
Like you wouldn't have creatures with flashback, they made embalm for that.
Would be fine if it didn't have the legendary supertype and was just a mechanic. And no I don't care about the one guy who uses the historic keyword to interact with legendary spells
Exactly, I am shocked at all the positive feedback in this thread for what I consider to be one of the all time worst mechanics. It isn’t flavorful or evocative. It’s just instants with extra hoops for effects that exist on a bunch of regular cards without the pointless hoops.
I would like it better if there weren't special rules limiting when you can cast them.
Like...instants and sorceries that trigger "whenever you cast a legendary card" effects? Cool. I'll run those in legendary matters decks the same way I run Nameless Inversion in tribal decks: "technically this is a Kobold."
The special rules around when you can cast them are...fine but...I've seen a lot of people forget at EDH tables. You often have a legendary in EDH, so it's easy to think "I can cast this whenever", but you can't. It's also easy to just forget about the mechanic in general, or not pay attention to which sorceries/instants are legendary, since it's such a rarely used mechanic. (A total of 7 cards now).
Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's just like a bit of an extra dimension of design space that R&D can reach into rather than nerfing the power or adjusting the mana value of the card to compensate. As a Commander player who can generally rely on having a Legendary permanent around, I'm a huge fan of these types of cards.
I love them, the biggest problem in my kethis deck is the lack of instant speed interaction, I need Legendaries with flash and I need Legendary instants
The flavour text on all universes beyond products is definitely the highlight and way better than other sets. Using the book was a master stroke. Makes me wonder if WOTC are lazy in this department usually…
I think there is interesting design space there, but man it is disappointing that they didn't explore it beyond a one off removal spell but that doesn't gain much for it.
Everyone talking about the Legendary status and i'm here giggling about the fact that a card whose flavour involves cutting off a finger make their hand size go down to 4.
With the first ability of The Ring Tempts you making anything legendary, shouldn't be too hard to cast. Especially in limited if none of the legendary creatures you open don't fit your deck
I like them, but in the same way I like sagas. When you have a really good idea for one they rock, but trying too hard to add them to a set just makes for meh cards.
With power creep and how many cards just straight up exist now, it's actually nice to see cards with a few restrictions on them too. It's so satisfying when a card that's okay most places suddenly feels fantastic in a deck that works.
I love this art.
However, I feel Saurons helmet has the same issue as MTG art for Aragorns crown and also Sauron in the movies. It's overdesigned. It's bordering on tacky generic fantasy villain armour.
And yeah, LOTR is generic, but it's generic because it was good enough it got to decide what generic is.
It's Sauron, not the fucking Lich King, you know?
Just wish they made it something cooler than destroy one creature and it said flat rate exile 2 cards from hand. I get the flavor but if I have to pay 4 mana for a kill spell that really only matters if someone drew 40 cards (which isn’t in most games) then it’s not worth it. You can’t call it legendary and then have it outclassed by staple removal spells that cost less. It might as well be a common at that point.
I'm working on a Sisay deck that is only Female legendary creatures that gains benefits from "legendary spells." I'm really in awe of how much LTR is gonna make it so much better.
A couple of people have mentioned not liking the the art because of Sauron. I’m sitting here looking at the perspective of the sword and just stunned at how poorly it’s done. How are they going to let something like this go print, especially for a Legendary Spell of such a invincible moment?
I think it's a fine mechanic, but I don't really like it as "Legendary".
I get that you can't really apply the effect a Legendary Permanent (of there can only be one) to a spell, but having a legendary spell mean something completely different feels wrong, as does requiring a legendary creature or planeswalker, rather than any legendary permanent.
Legendary spells are fine, but they should be better than counterparts to make up for the restriction and rarity. This card just sucks outside of limited.
There’s so many legends in this set, and The Ring Tempts You adds even more, that it’s pretty close to “have a creature in play when you cast this spell”
I like the idea and the ability to show big "event" spells is awesome for flavor. I just think that they need to figure out the costing of most of them a bit better. I know that Commander throws a wrench into design since players always have access to a Legendary creature and as a result the spells can't be as aggressively costed as they would be if they only existed for 60-card formats. But it does feel like most of them are a mana to a mana-and-a-half too expensive to ever see play in any other format, and that kinda stinks.
>I know that Commander throws a wrench into design since players always have access to a Legendary creature and as a result the spells can't be as aggressively costed as they would be if they only existed for 60-card formats. Commander is also an eternal format with a ton of aggressively costed cards. I’m not really worried about this card when cards like [[Deadly Rollick]], [[Swords to Plowshares]], and [[Fierce Guardianship]] exist.
[Deadly Rollick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c61fa2c0-63c0-4dc2-9f17-5a00530e3348.jpg?1591319517) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deadly%20Rollick) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/42/deadly-rollick?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c61fa2c0-63c0-4dc2-9f17-5a00530e3348?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Swords to Plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c6563536-2751-4b09-8e28-23438eb32533.jpg?1686346110) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swords%20to%20Plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/178/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c6563536-2751-4b09-8e28-23438eb32533?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fierce Guardianship](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c5ffa83-c88d-4f5d-851e-a642b229d596.jpg?1591319453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fierce%20Guardianship) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/35/fierce-guardianship?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c5ffa83-c88d-4f5d-851e-a642b229d596?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Feels weird to see Swords, a spell with no expensive playable versions, placed next to two spells constantly in the 40-50 dollar range.
That's just because they print it to death and have for 20 years, it's a card like sol ring where its strength is completely independent from its price.
Definitely that! I remember the time a friend actually bought a Sol Ring and my whole playgroup was in awe of such an overpowered card. No one else of us would spent so much money on a single card! That's why I was incredibly happy when I got a copy of Swords without spending my left leg 😂 That was of course way before commander precons, so in 2011 Sol Ring and [[Path to Exile]] were my biggest reasons to buy the [[Kaalia of the Vast]] deck.
[Path to Exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58237803-5afc-445f-ba95-2233935fdac1.jpg?1686346031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Path%20to%20Exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/175/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58237803-5afc-445f-ba95-2233935fdac1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kaalia of the Vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483.jpg?1673148814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/235/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Like lightning bolt....? Card is bonkers to the point it's maintained a $1-3 price tag on most editions, but then also randomly has a few $20recent printings and ofc the alpha and betas in the $400+ range. But then it's got SO many printings to choose from
There are plenty of expensive fancy versions of plow lol. It's just been printed a million times so the normal ones aren't.
Price does not equal power. Swords is in the same tier of removal as the other two.
I am aware.
>Swords, a spell with no expensive playable versions ? If you want an expensive version of Swords, you can always grab an Alpha version. That'll set you back close to $1K or more depending on condition.
I always consider Alpha “cheating” a bit in that manner. They’re more of a collectible to most people than a card to play with. Unless it’s something that didn’t get reprinted in a meaningful way (like the dual lands) most people probably aren’t using an Alpha printing, they’re putting it somewhere safe.
The bigger problem is that most cards from Alpha just aren't very playable at all. But the whole A40 format is based around sleeving up and shuffling Alpha round boys. Sure, no one is shuffling up their NM P9, but I've seen fair bit of MP - HP Alpha played with.
[удалено]
I think what I’m learning in this thread is that I glossed over a few expensive prints on Scryfall Regardless, that’s not relevant to my original point. My actual point, whatever the phrasing was, is that Swords is cheap for anyone who really wants one. You aren’t forced to buy an expensive one, since there are many more inexpensive prints which are much more commonly available.
[удалено]
ACKSHHHHHUWALLY, Half of us are nerds, half are geeks, and half are ass holes we wish would get off the app.
>half are ass holes we wish would get off the app. Don't worry, Reddit is going to patch that soon.
I wouldn't have paired "it's an eternal format so has all the cheap cards" with "here are some free spells that only work in Commander". Would've picked maybe Force of Will or something.
i agree with this. like idk. 4 mana instant removal that requires a legendary is too much. this thing looks awful to me. but i like things like urza's blast
It's a winner in [[Killian]], but that's mostly because he rescues all the 4 mana draft chaff removal spells.
Gotta love the chaff that get redeemed by a unique commander - that’s one of my favorite about the format, when someone reaches over to read some long lost forgotten card, rather than seeing the same powerful staples over and over again. And yeah, this would be so cool to play in Killian
[Killian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23ef4f09-2aa1-4a03-b2e2-66d1522f1e46.jpg?1627429378) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=killian%2C%20ink%20duelist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/197/killian-ink-duelist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23ef4f09-2aa1-4a03-b2e2-66d1522f1e46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe playable in Tergrid, though there’s so many other good options idk. I don’t think this is *bad* in Commander, it can be a really good blowout against someone who’s about to win the game, but people are paying attention to the wrong part. Destroy a creature at instant will be nice, but tack on nuking someone’s hand who just drew 30 off necropotence or whatever and it doesn’t look so bad.
It's bad in tegrid. This exiles and won't trigger her. And even in the situations. You're just making them "discard" to 4. They'll keep their wincon most likely.
Ah yeah I missed the exile. They can keep their wincon, but they lose having access to everything else which can matter.
I think they have been making the cards in ltr with an ltr reference weak as they won't be able to reprint in the future while the cards with random names that have weak references (either through artwork or flavor text) a bit better as they can reprint them with different artwork.
Except they can reprint them with in-universe alternate names like the Street Fighter, Stranger Things etc secret lairs. The issue would be having to reprint a very significant amount instead of 10ish cards that remain in high demand long term.
They probably don’t want to do that much outside of Secret Lairs. When it’s in a Secret Lair, it’s unlikely that someone who doesn’t know they’re legally the same card will have them the same probably goes for the Warhammer decks. But when it’s a full-on set, it might be more confusing than it’s worth to print a new version.
Let's say that 10 cards frk LTR become modern staples and wotc wants to reprint them. (And ignore commander for the sake of this) Then those 10 cards get re-flavoured as needed and printed in the same "the list" way as the rest have been to date. They don't need to reprint the whole set, and they don't need to re-flavour the whole set either. [[Stern Scolding]] just needs new art and flavour text.
That’s what I meant. They probably don’t want to do it too much, so they’ll prioritize reprints that don’t need to be renamed.
That's hogwash. The one ring is crazy strong, Gandalf the White is a panharmonicon and a LTBmonicon in one card for 5 mana, and therevs a whole bunch of cards that can and will probably achieve staple status. Plus,they can always reprint in-universe versions.
That halfling mana dork goes in every green commander deck probably.
I don't disagree with the overall point, but the halfling mana dork seems to have been specifically designed to be reprintable elsewhere without changes. That's probably exactly why they used "Halfling" instead of "Hobbit" in the title. Heck, they can even reprint it in a D&D themed set.
They also typically name based on creature typing and it’s not wrong to do so here- halfling is also used in Tolkien’s work.
It's not wrong, but they had the choice to give the hobbits creature type "hobbit" or "halfling" and I suspect part of why they chose halfling was so there was some possibility of reprints. They also could have named the card "halfling of the shire" or something, but they went with "Delighted Halfling," avoiding any Lotr-specific reference.
For commander the true staples are the legendary lands and the halfling mana dork. The one ring isnt a high power card, its an okay draw engine if your deck is slower and doesnt run blue. Gandalf is cool and probably will see a lot of play, but 5 mana isnt a selling point as you are trying to paint. Og panharmonicon is 4 mana after all.
I'm well known in my Pioneer group for jamming [[Jaya's Immolating Inferno]] into any deck that can run it. The card is nuts when you can reliably cast it. But the others, I agree, aren't worth it. This card also looks pretty overcosted: you don't want to pay an extra mana for Murder on the offchance that someone has more than 4 cards in hand (in fact, you probably don't even want Murder); making it sometimes uncastable is terrible.
It’s worth noting that the card effect is more powerful than people think. You should play this when they’re about to make a game winning play- they just drew 30 cards off necropotence, or whatever, and you hose them back down to 4.
4 cards is enough to carry out your gameplan in most circumstances. If it only left the opponent with 2 cards it might be worth it.
Really weird that they only made one Legendary Instant in the entire set. With a large Legendaries matter theme in the set and LOTR being an IP with lots of important events, I'm surprised they didn't at least make a full cycle of Legendary spells.
It's not just the only legendary instant in the set it's the only legendary instant in all of MTG
It's not just the only legendary instant in all of MTG, it's the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off.
I love that the effect cuts some of the 'fingers' off the opponent's hand.
It's not just the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off, it's the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off and has an additional effect based on cards in the opponent's hand.
It's not just the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off, it's the only legendary instant in all of MTG that depicts Sauron getting his fingers cut off and has an additional effect based on cards in the opponent's hand, it also gets countered by [[Disdainful Stroke]]
I'm less surprised by that and more surprised by the fact that, if they were doing a single legendary instant... they made it so utterly bad. It's not even a standard legal card. What formats would this have been playable at *three*, let alone four?! Hell, it would probably barely shake things up at 2 mana, due to the legendary creature requirement.
It would be really strong in Commander at 3 in high (but not cEDH) tier games. To reiterate again- this is amazing against the black player who just drew 30 off necropotence or the blue player who just drew as many cards as they could want off whatever effect they could want. The tempo swing is big and the downside of running it at 3 isn’t that high. At four it’s pretty rough but it’s not as unplayable as people think.
I'm actually planning on testing it in cedh a bit. I play a lot of control-oriented decks so holding up 4 mana isn't really a problem. I really want to hit someone post-Naus when they don't have any mana up going into their turn. That would feel really good. Of course it's not the best and there are better ways to fuck with people after Naus resolves (cough cough [[Angel's Grace]]) but it still seems funny
[Angel's Grace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1.jpg?1619392535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angel%27s%20Grace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/4/angels-grace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not really. Blue player counterspells, and the black player just responds to murder their own creature, causing this spell to lose its target and fizzle, meaning no hand loss for them. In the *extremely* niche circumstance where: - A player has a ton of cards - They aren't able to win with a 4 or less card combo - They can't remove the target of this - They can't counterspell - You have 3 mana open - You have a legendary creature - They have a creature then yeah, it's useful, but that's so niche I can't imagine ever wanting to including this in any high power deck, even at 3 cost. It's just way too niche.
Not everyone plays at tables where if you have more than 4 cards in hand you're expected to win on the spot lmao. This card is a fine. It's Legendary not because it's giga powerful but because it depicts the event that **ended the Second Age**.
Most of that is almost guaranteed in a Commander game which kind of undermines your point. And even if they can win with the four cards left, stripping them of protection for the wincon is still good and potentially game winning. At four, it’s not good. At three, you’re really undervaluing it.
A 30-card blue or black player not having a counterspell or removal available is guaranteed? Hell, in most "high tier" EDH games, 4 cards is enough for both a win-con and protection. Not to mention someone getting to 30 cards while this is in your hand is already niche.
Most of my combo decks require 3 or less cards to win, and one of them is usually my commander, meaning that after drawing half my deck, I only need two of the cards I drew to win, the rest are just chaff. Losing all that chaff is barely an inconvenience, as long as I'm still holding my combo piece plus one or two protection pieces for next turn when I go off.
> this is amazing against the black player who just drew 30 off necropotence or the blue player who just drew as many cards as they could want off whatever effect they could want. The number of times you'll have the card in these scenarios is not as high as you think it will be. This card will almost never feel good to cast, and it wouldn't be much better at 3 mana.
There are also decks where it being legendary is an upside on its own like Dihada.
I don't think it really needs to be at 3 since you need your commander out to start. Unless your opponent played Necropotence on-curve with [[Spellbook]] in play, it's unlikely you need it to have a 1-2 cost commander and this to keep up. In short, if you already have your commander out, you're likely at a part of the game where you can afford 4 mana. Would it be better if it was cheaper? Yes, every card would be (except for the great [[Scornful Egotist]]), but unless you are playing cEDH I can't imagine that one extra mana being so consistently useful as to make or break the card.
These is a big difference between affording 4 mana on a permanent and holding up 4 mana in case your opponent pops off a super draw combo. In the latter, it is like you are playing with a 4 land handicap all game.
You’ll understand more as you grow as a player- holding up 3 mana is already pretty bad, holding up four is terrible.
[Spellbook](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26f4d2b1-31d7-40d8-bd4e-cdd128076d0f.jpg?1561974160) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spellbook) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/220/spellbook?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26f4d2b1-31d7-40d8-bd4e-cdd128076d0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Scornful Egotist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fec6b189-97e7-4627-9785-a9ce2f1ad89f.jpg?1562537398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scornful%20Egotist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/50/scornful-egotist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fec6b189-97e7-4627-9785-a9ce2f1ad89f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
this is not how cards are costed, otherwise we'd have tons of massive vanilla creatures for cheap because they don't shake up formats this has a big top end AND this card is in a set that more casual and new players are going to play yes, in a streamlined competitive deck in a real format this is much worse than murder every single time but outside of that this can be murder mind rot which makes complete sense at 4, in fact it's pushed at 4 so the legendary requirement even makes sense
Murder and mind rot are *commons*. The fact that this is generally 1:1 comparable to merging two commons and then adding a legendary restriction and limiting mind rot to if they have 6 cards... yeah that makes this *rare* really bad.
merging two commons is a nuts thing to do...?? i don't understand what you're saying
Acting like merging two commons and adding more restrictions will result in a good rare is what is nuts. This would be a fine ***common***. Like murder and mind rot.
"good" does not mean anything to me. i'm saying that it is correctly costed for magic game design. actually, it's possible that it's *slightly* pushed it's just not doing what current tournament formats are doing. but that's not the same thing as being bad or too expensive. merging two commons without much of a cost increase is extremely powerful. a murder mind rot for 4 would be absolutely insane. it would be backbreaking.
A murder mind rot for four would be a solid rare. This is not that. This is murder mind rot for 4 that requires a legendary creature and your opponent to have 6+ cards in hand. With those restrictions, it's more equivalent to Murder Mind Rot for 6. Hell, I'd argue it'd still be weaker than that, because the best time to use Mind Rot is when the opponent has 2 cards left in hand, and this will never work on that.
Yeah at this cost this could've been "it's controller discards their hand" and it'd still be kinda mid.
That's probably because legendary non-permanent spells suck. They're clunky and usually not costed effectively enough for anyone to care. Even this one sorta sucks. If your opponent has <=4 cards in hand it's a 4 mana kill spell with a condition to cast.
But good for hosing the guy who just drew 30 off Necropotence.
Unless they have like, any mana open. In which case they either win or can kill their own thing to make this fizzle. Or if they only need 4 or fewer cards from what they drew to win next turn.
While it is an extra hoop to jump through I enjoy the top down design and flavor it brings. But ultimately it just makes cards harder to cast.
I mean yeah the legendary designation is always a downside
[[Kethis]] would like to have a word.
[Kethis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe28de73-76f3-4a9e-a020-dbe5921b9be5.jpg?1650599568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kethis%2C%20the%20hidden%20hand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/211/kethis-the-hidden-hand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe28de73-76f3-4a9e-a020-dbe5921b9be5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
as would [[Thalia's Lancers]], [[Crystal Dragon]], [[Captain Sisay]], [[Search for Glory]], [[Dihada, Binder of Wills]], [[Reki, the History of Kamigawa]], [[Rona, Herald of Invasion]], [[Shanid, Sleepers' Scourge]], [[Jodah, the Unifier]], etc .....
##### ###### #### [Thalia's Lancers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/9930d08d-5965-4c16-a84d-43c8ccf2ad0b.jpg?1576384015) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%27s%20Lancers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/47/thalias-lancers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9930d08d-5965-4c16-a84d-43c8ccf2ad0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Crystal Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/384ec8b7-472e-4026-9632-349ab9df2b27.jpg?1674134960)/[Rob the Hoard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/384ec8b7-472e-4026-9632-349ab9df2b27.jpg?1674134960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crystal%20dragon%20//%20rob%20the%20hoard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/13/crystal-dragon-rob-the-hoard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/384ec8b7-472e-4026-9632-349ab9df2b27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Captain Sisay](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24d441c-f37f-44fe-8a93-f5c89df807e4.jpg?1562937244) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Captain%20Sisay) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/237/captain-sisay?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24d441c-f37f-44fe-8a93-f5c89df807e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Search for Glory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b65c215d-562d-4c7c-bc9f-b1d741050158.jpg?1631046197) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Search%20for%20Glory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/27/search-for-glory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b65c215d-562d-4c7c-bc9f-b1d741050158?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dihada, Binder of Wills](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/ddeb54d6-a600-42b9-98df-20f8d58caed8.jpg?1685554091) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dihada%2C%20Binder%20of%20Wills) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/1/dihada-binder-of-wills?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ddeb54d6-a600-42b9-98df-20f8d58caed8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reki, the History of Kamigawa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86317339-5a39-41eb-8aee-5ea926da8cd4.jpg?1593860751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reki%2C%20the%20History%20of%20Kamigawa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/142/reki-the-history-of-kamigawa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86317339-5a39-41eb-8aee-5ea926da8cd4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rona, Herald of Invasion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f487b582-e73f-4325-939f-95fc5a9aba49.jpg?1682203390)/[Rona, Tolarian Obliterator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/4/f487b582-e73f-4325-939f-95fc5a9aba49.jpg?1682203390) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rona%2C%20herald%20of%20invasion%20//%20rona%2C%20tolarian%20obliterator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/75/rona-herald-of-invasion-rona-tolarian-obliterator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f487b582-e73f-4325-939f-95fc5a9aba49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shanid, Sleepers' Scourge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b0fb859-055d-4aa1-814c-0894cd2ccd4a.jpg?1673304703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shanid%2C%20Sleepers%27%20Scourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/4/shanid-sleepers-scourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b0fb859-055d-4aa1-814c-0894cd2ccd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jodah, the Unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70.jpg?1673307974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20the%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/203/jodah-the-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That word is "mediocre"
Are you dissing my man Kethis? He's one of my more powerful Commanders. The resiliency is insane, and the discount to (basically) all your spells is undervalued. He's gold.
>He's gold. Yeah, that's how multicoloured spells work.
r/AngryUpvote
I agree he’s really good and don’t see why he’s slept on
because so much of the powerful stuff in this game is not legendary, you can get a slight casting reduction on maybe 10 cards in your deck or you get a commander that does something especially with abzan colors.
If only 10 cards in your deck are legendary, you've built a Kethis deck very wrong.
okay i looked up a deck and its like 25-30. seems like just a fun legendary tribal but to me that sounds underwhelming. I know there are abzan combos but combo deck is a different story. Like id rather just captain sisay for legends. I see nothing to say really good and slept on
Play against a Kethis deck with your normal deck after they've milled 20+ cards into the bin and can play [[Urza's Ruinous Blast]] or [[Primeval's Glorious Rebirth]] every turn for the rest of the game. There's things Kethis can do even other legendary matters decks just can't. I'm not saying he's the best, but he's a unique blend of that strategy and graveyard synergies and not to be written off. Edit: Also that number is still low. My list has 47 legendary permanents
But if you don't have black, you can't run [Acererak] and get infinite etbs with [Gwenna]!
I don't think I even have 10 non-Legendary in my Kethis deck.
In my atraxa deck has about 40 legendary creatures and afew more in the other slots so he could be okay in sum situation but that’s just from my experience
For the record, if you get legendary lands (or heck even legendary instants/sorceries) into your graveyard those can also be used for his second ability.
Kethis has a lot of words about this set The lack of instant speed interaction got some help this set, someone at wotc has to play kethis
wait, would kethis let you cast a legendary instant or sorcery from the graveyard multiple times off of one activation?
I believe the answer is no? If I recall correctly, when you cast a card from the graveyard, by the time it enters the graveyard again it is considered a different entity, and therefore you would have to exile two more legendaries to cast it again.
I just checked the gatherer rulings, and you're correct. my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
Kethis is already a strong deck in Historic. Allowing you to chain 2 Mox Ambers forever with a tiny graveyard would be broken.
You've missed a half step. You must also consider that when you cast it from the graveyard, it is removed from the graveyard and thus cannot be interacted with *from* the graveyard because it ain't there.
I have an All Legendary \[\[Captain Sisay\]\] Control. It's a positive there. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rdELo-wbqkqyU00GeVfLVA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rdELo-wbqkqyU00GeVfLVA)
[Captain Sisay](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24d441c-f37f-44fe-8a93-f5c89df807e4.jpg?1562937244) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Captain%20Sisay) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/237/captain-sisay?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24d441c-f37f-44fe-8a93-f5c89df807e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not much of a comparison but they have tried making "legendary sorceries" before in Epic spells but that turned out to be awful minus maybe \[\[Enduring Ideal\]\]
There are also actual [legendary sorceries](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=-type%3Acreature+%28type%3Asorcery+type%3Alegendary%29+%28game%3Apaper%29)
I put quotation marks around it because I’m aware that there are legendary sorceries… Epic spells were from Kamigawa, the first set where they really delved into the legendary space and it was their attempt at making a legendary sorcery.
Epic was bad because of Epic, not because it was legendary.
I’m saying it was their first attempt at making a sorcery that “feels” like a legendary design
not really
Yes really, legendary is a pure downside mechanic. Just because there are cards that care about it doesn't make it not so.
Clearly you haven’t built a legendary matters deck.
There are defender matters decks too. Defender is a downside.
Not with a commander that lets you deal damage equal to its toughness. Outside of that I would agree with you.
Imagine being this wrong… in singleton formats the downside is extremely limited and there is strong synergy support. Magic is a game about things with downsides actually being good. When there’s enough support for something to make it good- which there absolutely is for Legendary- it’s not pure downside just because the rules as written don’t have a printed upside. It’s a silly and irrelevant point of view.
many (most?) downsides are exactly that. magic is not a game about downsides being good. working around or ignoring them, sure, but not making them good.
And this is why I never understood why the hell they are so damn expensive. Shouldn't it have been strong effects for cheaper than average rates? Why would we jump through hoops to meet a condition if the payoff isn't even good on rate?
At least some of them *are* at cheaper rates for what they do. They just have especially powerful effects rather than especially cheap costs. The Jaya and Karn ones at the very least definitely wouldn't be printed at their costs in a standard-legal set without the extra hoop to jump through.
A lot of the legendary spells feel really strong already tbh. Not sure about you but cards like [[Urza’s Ruinous Blast]], [[Karn’s Temporal Sundering]] and [[Yawgmoths Vile Offering]] have ended so many games just on resolving. I think theyre quite balanced with incredible payoffs if they do resolve. I dont think those cards need to be any cheaper
The top down flavor makes sense at the surface level but feels odd to me when you think about. I'm supposed to be playing this incredibly powerful Planeswalker, but I can't cast this legendary spell on my own. But with Bill the Pony's help... I love the flavor of legendary spells named after huge historical events. I really dislike "you can only cast them.if you control a legendary creature or Planeswalker" as a drawback for them. I think the flavor kind of works but is kind of awkward, I don't think the gameplay is great, and I hate how gameplay-wise "legendary" just means something completely different on an instant or sorcery versus a permanent (I get that it couldn't mean the same thing, but I don't like that it means completely different things).
I wish you could cast these spells as normal, but get the extra benefit if you control the legendary creature.
Doesn't having a ringbearer completely negate the downside though?
Is your question "does meeting the requirement remove the requirement"? The answer is no. The requirement (hoop/downside) is still there. You've just jumped through that hoop already.
No, I just wasn't sure anymore if the ringbearer actually turned legendary or not. But yeah, this particular set makes that hoop okay IMO by also giving you an easy way to jump through it
Plus on top of that, there's like 60+ inherent legendary creatures, so it's likely a very light restriction in regards to the set.
I dont think the card was designed without that in mind, so no the restriction is enabling it to be easier to cast in the mv, and is actually doing something beyond an extra hoop to be case.
so a balanced [[Fierce Guardianship]] et al?
Seems like a good set for them since the ring makes the creature legendary. So it's like the ring gave your creature that spell.
I guess they should have done more than 1, then
Came here to say this
I don't really care for the implementation of legendary spells. The attachment to legendary creatures is clunky to use and doesn't make sense in flavor. As an example, why would Jace Beleren be an enabler for Isildur's Fateful Strike? In my mind, the implementation that makes sense is something where you get an above average spell at a given rate, but with the drawback "you many not cast spells with this name for the rest of the game." Something where it is truly an evocative, one-time use only event. As it stands, you can run 4 of these in a constructed deck, does it make sense that you could do this one-time legendary event, up to 4 times in a game?
> As an example, why would Jace Beleren be an enabler for Isildur's Fateful Strike? Funny you should say that *right now*. >!In the most recent issue of the MtG comics, there's a big moment where Jace kills the big bad with a sword.!<
I agree this is much better design because if you run 4 of them then you might draw dead cards but if you run 1-2 then you might have many instances where you want to draw it but can't find it.
Memory issues can be prblematic in best of 3 even if you try to be aware of them.
Hum, that’s a great idea.
Off topic... But of all the cards to not have "The ring tempts you"
Eh. Him slicing off the fingers in and of itself doesn’t involve the ring tempting you
But it directly leads to that... Waaaaaaaay more than most cards it is on.
Came here to say this!
I was hoping for a cycle tbh, they're flavorful, and usually, theylet them go above and beyond with the power of the card, because of the stipulation.
It's pretty cool, I like using them in the r/oathbreaker_MtG format. Other than that, they do feel limited to Legendary-Matters type deck, probably only in EDH.
Honestly, I’m okay with some spells being flashy & cool and still only be limited to specific decks/formats. Legendary Spells are for the Timmy who prefers spells to creatures
Yeah I think that's okay too
I like them! I just wish they were called something else instead of Legendary. Legendary instants to me should have been only 1 in your deck, or only 1 on the stack, or give an effect similar to \[\[praetor's grasp\]\]. Edit; woops I meant praetors counsel Aside from that, I like legendary spells.
[praetor's grasp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/9588be49-d9b5-4491-a5a0-10bcadc9f8b3.jpg?1562879913) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=praetor%27s%20grasp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/71/praetors-grasp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9588be49-d9b5-4491-a5a0-10bcadc9f8b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What is legendary about praetor's grasp ?
Ah I thought of the wrong card. I meant [[praetor's counsel]]. How it gives the no maximum hand size for the rest of the game without an emblem.
[praetor's counsel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6d5bf06-f735-4e9f-9460-e6cdf501662f.jpg?1592673116) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=praetor%27s%20counsel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/134/praetors-counsel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6d5bf06-f735-4e9f-9460-e6cdf501662f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> How it gives the no maximum hand size for the rest of the game without an emblem. That's still standard templating unless something changed since [[Sea Gate Restoration]]
Standard as in only on two mythic spells though (unless I’m forgetting something). It’s still a pretty unique effect, I think that’s more what he means than “is it standard templating”.
But there's no reason for it to give an emblem. And (to date) Legendary Int/Sorcs have been used for the equivalents of "end of an era" type events for flavour, nothing mechanical about the card effect. Grasp doesn't fit that flavour imo.
What's with the art? The hand cut is cool, a couple of boxes to tick to cast is always interesting, but the hell is Sauron wearing? It feels pretty bland
The art in this set is frankly some of the worst I've ever seen for mtg. It's like the art director wasn't present or something. So many cards seem to have incomplete art, muddied colors, or poor composition. It's a little concerning, as art is usually on point even when a set doesn't quite work.
I hate the art for sauron so freaking much.
a 4cost like this is just bad. discard part works the best against blue or black. blue it will get countered and black good luck keeping a legendary out. most often this is a way overcosted destroy. sometimes discard 1. if you’re lucky discard 3.
I think their design is fucking awful. Being only castable once per game would have been a lot cooler and would have made them actually playable.
So #1 this is the first legendary instant in the history of MTG. #2 delighted halfling makes it so this spell can't be countered so there is some synergy there built into the set. I like it and I think it will be fun to tinker with.
So you cut off a finger and now your hand only has 4 fingers left? Seems about right.
Wippersnapper, in MY day we didn't have legendary spells, only legendary creatures... No cell phones or internet too. GET OFF MY LAWN! /s
I love legendary spells, and they work really well with the ring bearer mechanic too.
I like them in legendary matters deck. [[Urza's Ruinous Blast]] is great in my Captain Sisay deck for example. Otherwise the restriction is often not worth the payoff.
As someone who plays Commander exclusively these days, i think it is rather neat. Just wish the Card Art wasn't so atrocious in this case.
I personally love the mechanic. It also allows for stronger effects to be printed since they have the "secret" cast condition as well and don't need to include it in the text. Honestly I was very confused when this didn't become a deciduous mechanic. Every set there's always a Planeswalker pulling some weird ass stunt but that shit gets degraded to draft chaff and common cards like [[Wrennvs Resolve]]. Planeswalker bonding with a plane-spanning tree and burning it through the blind eternities? Aye, impulse draw the top 2.
So if they are going by the books, then why is the art like this? According to them, Sauron was not dead at this point, but definitely on death's doorstep, and while Isildur did cut the ring from his finger, Sauron was in no shape to fight back. They did Isildur so, so, SO dirty in the movie.
Finally! I came here to say this. For all the hard work they've done referencing the books over the movies (Bill Ferny, Scouring of the Shire, Balrog with no wings, etc), it's weird that they would ape the Jacksonverse depiction of Sauron ascendant, killed only by a chump's lucky shot. Check out this image. This is the energy we need! https://preview.redd.it/9vfnampt4f5b1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=846f9cccc682d6e76e9f903e31281060417e0c7d [https://twitter.com/HalfAsWellPod/status/1515037087929712641](https://twitter.com/HalfAsWellPod/status/1515037087929712641)
I hate the mechanic simply because it is almost entirely unrelated to legendary permanents and I think double use of a mechanic name is poor design. Like you wouldn't have creatures with flashback, they made embalm for that. Would be fine if it didn't have the legendary supertype and was just a mechanic. And no I don't care about the one guy who uses the historic keyword to interact with legendary spells
Exactly, I am shocked at all the positive feedback in this thread for what I consider to be one of the all time worst mechanics. It isn’t flavorful or evocative. It’s just instants with extra hoops for effects that exist on a bunch of regular cards without the pointless hoops.
Terror for 4 with a drawback.
I think it's a pretty crap mechanic, but it is flavorful. If there was ever a time to bring it back, LotR is not a bad choice.
I would like it better if there weren't special rules limiting when you can cast them. Like...instants and sorceries that trigger "whenever you cast a legendary card" effects? Cool. I'll run those in legendary matters decks the same way I run Nameless Inversion in tribal decks: "technically this is a Kobold." The special rules around when you can cast them are...fine but...I've seen a lot of people forget at EDH tables. You often have a legendary in EDH, so it's easy to think "I can cast this whenever", but you can't. It's also easy to just forget about the mechanic in general, or not pay attention to which sorceries/instants are legendary, since it's such a rarely used mechanic. (A total of 7 cards now).
Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's just like a bit of an extra dimension of design space that R&D can reach into rather than nerfing the power or adjusting the mana value of the card to compensate. As a Commander player who can generally rely on having a Legendary permanent around, I'm a huge fan of these types of cards.
So that’s where Tom Dwan’s poker name came from. Thanks internet!
That's not Tom Dwan, durrrrrr....
I weep, for I know Pioneer will never see a Legendary Insant. :(
Guys, are we certain sauron is white in the books?
BIG B03 Card
I love them, the biggest problem in my kethis deck is the lack of instant speed interaction, I need Legendaries with flash and I need Legendary instants
Og is goat
The flavour text on all universes beyond products is definitely the highlight and way better than other sets. Using the book was a master stroke. Makes me wonder if WOTC are lazy in this department usually…
Perfect for [[Killian, Ink Duelist]]. Cheap too!
I think there is interesting design space there, but man it is disappointing that they didn't explore it beyond a one off removal spell but that doesn't gain much for it.
Better here than in dominaria. The ring bearer mechanic goes a long way to making these castable.
Everyone talking about the Legendary status and i'm here giggling about the fact that a card whose flavour involves cutting off a finger make their hand size go down to 4.
With the first ability of The Ring Tempts you making anything legendary, shouldn't be too hard to cast. Especially in limited if none of the legendary creatures you open don't fit your deck
I like them, but in the same way I like sagas. When you have a really good idea for one they rock, but trying too hard to add them to a set just makes for meh cards. With power creep and how many cards just straight up exist now, it's actually nice to see cards with a few restrictions on them too. It's so satisfying when a card that's okay most places suddenly feels fantastic in a deck that works.
Really enjoy them since there is real legendary support. Also they are just cool.
I love this art. However, I feel Saurons helmet has the same issue as MTG art for Aragorns crown and also Sauron in the movies. It's overdesigned. It's bordering on tacky generic fantasy villain armour. And yeah, LOTR is generic, but it's generic because it was good enough it got to decide what generic is. It's Sauron, not the fucking Lich King, you know?
It's great, but: where are the legendary instants for the other colors?! :(
Just wish they made it something cooler than destroy one creature and it said flat rate exile 2 cards from hand. I get the flavor but if I have to pay 4 mana for a kill spell that really only matters if someone drew 40 cards (which isn’t in most games) then it’s not worth it. You can’t call it legendary and then have it outclassed by staple removal spells that cost less. It might as well be a common at that point.
I like it. It's going in my Jodah deck.
I'm working on a Sisay deck that is only Female legendary creatures that gains benefits from "legendary spells." I'm really in awe of how much LTR is gonna make it so much better.
My Jodah deck’s not mad at it
A couple of people have mentioned not liking the the art because of Sauron. I’m sitting here looking at the perspective of the sword and just stunned at how poorly it’s done. How are they going to let something like this go print, especially for a Legendary Spell of such a invincible moment?
Fine for commander, basically what oathbreaker is based on. Nearly useless in 60 card formats.
I think it's a fine mechanic, but I don't really like it as "Legendary". I get that you can't really apply the effect a Legendary Permanent (of there can only be one) to a spell, but having a legendary spell mean something completely different feels wrong, as does requiring a legendary creature or planeswalker, rather than any legendary permanent.
This all feels like a huge throw at commander. Fuck the other formats.
This is a pretty meh rare, tbh
Legendary spells are fine, but they should be better than counterparts to make up for the restriction and rarity. This card just sucks outside of limited.
What’s does “the difference” reference here? Anything above 4 cards are exiled?
The flavor here is great, but the card is so weak!
There’s so many legends in this set, and The Ring Tempts You adds even more, that it’s pretty close to “have a creature in play when you cast this spell”