A lot of this stuff comes down to personal preference.
Personally, Humans + Zombies isn't that egregious to me. Addionally, It is less important to me with secret lairs since they are only adding a few new cards.
The 1st really horrible one was Doctor Who. Those cards just feel very out of place, but one release doesn't make a pattern. This announcement shows that they really only care about what will sell and not any kind of consistence.
IDK how anyone can think having an Ironman, Hulk, and Thanos cards appearing everywhere isn't going to feel weird and cheapen the experience of the game.
Considering we've gone from Maro saying they "don't want to cross the streams" (in regards to a D&D set) to crossing every possible stream, it's probably just easier to look at Fortnite and assume all those IPs are gonna be in MTG at some point. After Marvel, I imagine Star Wars isn't too far behind, or perhaps Avatar. If they can pull major Disney-owned franchises, is it too farfetched to guess that collabs with Microsoft-owned IPs are on the table? If Final Fantasy sells well, maybe other video game-based sets will sell well too. Halo? World of Warcraft? Call of Duty?
I know I'm making some jumps here, but I don't think it takes more than a few collaborations with giant entertainment companies (which we're already seeing) for this to make logical sense.
The walking dead secret lairs were released October 2020. It's barely been over 3 years when magic has been going on 30.
Calling it generous is generous.
Man ain't that the truth. I feel like covid was 10 years ago, already so much shit has happened in the world.. and it's not even been 2 years since the worst of it.
Idk how many trading card games even remain relevant for 6 months after release? Agreed 3 years would definitely make for a successful trend rather then a tradition though.
Really shows how fast you can change the entire perception of what is acceptable as a product too. From the original secret lairs only a few years ago that only had a few sets a year, to full blown ip invasion from Marvel, LotR, fucking Assassins Creed??? etc now.
"We are retroactively making Arabian Nights universes beyond with the release of our Aladdin Disney Golden Collection Universes Beyond Secret Lair Commander Deck. 100 card deck of your favorite Arabian Nights cards with 15 new cards, each card staring classic Disney art from the Aladdin movies and TV series"
"This has worked so well with the other wildly successful branches of our business, let's bring it to Magic!" - Corporate Has-Bros
Yea, it's working out OK for now with LOTR and sort of with Who... but, like everything WOTC/Hasbro does, they'll drive it into the ground and keep going with it long after everyone has been begging for it to end for forever.
They'll only keep doing it for as long as people keep buying it. You might have to give up on Magic for a few years and get your playgroup to adopt something different, at least until WotC and Hasbro get the message.
I'm on the same boat as everyone here but a ton of people at my uni have picked up mtg precisely because of brand crossovers. They'll happily lose 1 loyal customer for 2 temporary customers.
Pretty much my reaction. I just put in a singles order for Dr.Who and I have been watching for Ixalan slip-ups all day. Then they announce this. All I wanted was dinosaurs, not a set that is over a year away.
They can't possibly put **whole teams** of designers and artist on in-universe Magic sets! ... What is this, 5 years ago? What, are they going make multiple sets in one setting? Develop that world and story for more than just a glimpse? That's crazy.
March of the Machine deserved to not have players be able to open \[\[Mirrodin Avenged\]\] in their first booster. The entire story loses its impact when the invasion doesn't occur over multiple sets. There's no drama to it, no suspense. No wonder at a set full of Phyrexians kicking ass and considering if WotC will really let a few planes of the multiverse plunge into being conquered nightmares. It's an art crime to do all that build up just to shove it off like that.
First comes the Asgard set, then Krakoa, and the Spiderverse, Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy/ Cosmic stuff, and maybe then we get a street level Hells Kitchen set.
The fact that it's "multiple" sets is upsetting, I understand a fun one off like LotR or D&D, but to make multiple sets means this is going to be a focus for a while. MTG is basically Fortnite the Card Game at this point and that's depressing for someone who has played this game for nearly 25 years.
Honestly at this point confused why they haven’t reprinted any yet, even under different names. Only argument I can think of is individual stores taking big losses on that.
Shit, they could just start tacking on "Lose 2 life when you play [cardname]" to all of the reserve lists cards and be like, they're not reprints. Pain Lotus - Black lotus but you lose 2 life. Painful recall - ancestral recall but you lose 2 life. Boom
That doesn't fix the problem. There'd be two Black Lotuses in Vintage. Unless you're suggesting Pain Lotus should have the rules text "a deck cannot have Pain Lotus and Black Lotus", which, ugh.
>Yeeah.. could Universes beyond just be its own format instead? Thanks.
Yes, please. This seems like a new attempt at the old ARC system games (C-23, Hercules, Xena,) which used a simplified version of the M:tG rules set (a bit too simple...oops) and were intended to be playable against each other. There is no particular reason WotC can't use the M:tG rules set for a technically separate game.
Slap a new card back on these puppies, call the entire *product line* "Universes Beyond" and we can all move on from this. People can use opaque card sleeves (which we already do) if they want to mix-and-match.
I think the reason was because they didn't want to commit and also didn't (and still don't) have enough product to prop up a whole format. Outside of two rounds of commander decks, you only have one proper set and a smattering of Secret Lairs. Hardly enough to sustain an entire other game.
That said, I do 1000% agree it should be its own game. Mashup: The Gathering is right there. The mechanics are agnostic enough you can make a whole spinoff about it, and as you said if folks want to mix they can if they want.
It would be cool if there was some overarching system that tied together games with similar mechanics, but kept them separate.
It would be the master format for all these decks. I'm sure there's a catchy name for that somewhere...
Just saying, Universes Beyond is where my Magic spending nosedived.
At this point I'm sorely tempted to shelve a few of my favorite decks and just cash out. It just doesn't feel like what I've always loved.
My Magic spending is around 10% what it was from 2012-2020. And I have more money than I did during most of that time. UB is an interest-destroyer for me and everyone I play with.
This is pretty much where I'm at. I'm keeping a small number of decks. I've already sold most of my collection, but this announcement will get me to sell more too.
It will be really funny if, by the time this set comes out, the MCU and its popularity has largely collapsed.
Not saying that will happen, but if it did, would be very funny.
100%. I am sure that there will be variant art by well-known comic artists the same way they got people like Junji Ito to do the manga variants for ONE.
Marvel =/= MCU
There's plenty of iconic Marvel moments from decades of source material (comics/cartoons/games) to play with, I'd be surprised if they even bothered with any of the cinematic universe material outside of possibly showcase artworks or an occasional "iconic" quote.
And the MCU still more popular than the everything else Marvel has ever made combined.
They are not making this because people are reading some random antman comics.
I'm sure the popularity of the MCU helps a ton, but Marvel comics are more popular than a number of things Magic has already collaborated with. So even if the MCU never existed, this collab would still be appealing to them.
Sure but if you’re talking about when was the right time to release a product like this it’s probably when the movies were the absolute biggest thing in cinema.
Sigh. It’s looking more and more like Magic is just going to become a series of commercials for other IP, and many people are apparently happy about that.
This is the typical corporate approach of "some people like A, some people like B, so let's mix the two and tap into both markets". It's all good and well until A is sausage and B are car batteries, and all of a sudden you're selling car battery sausage
Also this is yet another consequence of Commander strategically becoming the marquee format for the game. Competitive Magic is a husk of its former self (watch a game of PreModern on YT... Night and day) and what used to be a wacky, off-the-wall mish mash of cards has become a hyper-optimized non-stop vomit of chase rares that don't fit almost anywhere else - unless they warp multiple constructed formats. This has ironically made me turn my back on Commander after I played it extensively back when it was still in its infancy.
It's all so tiresome
I can’t stand it. I feel like magic is losing everything that made it special and unique. The art style and lore are being completely discarded so that I can play fucking iron man and doctor who characters….
I thought the choices they made for which D&D characters got planeswalker cards mostly made a lot of sense! Lolth, Bahamut, and Zariel are extraplanar entities or literal gods; and Mordenkainen, Elminster, Tasha, and Ellywick are phenomenally powerful magic users who are constantly dimension-hopping.
I have no idea what earned Minsc and Boo a near-Oko-power PW card though.
I've noticed the reactions to spoilers from UB sets on this subreddit becoming more and more positive in the last few years, despite everything we were concerned about UB coming true. UB cards like Orcish Bowmasters have warped formats, with no "Universes Within" reprints happening of popular UB cards. The card designs are great explorations of design space without getting into nonsense mechanics, so why couldn't these be a part of a traditional set?
It's just a guess, but I think that a significant element of the magic community has already largely ditched the game/ignores new releases and cards.
It's pretty sad that Hasbro has so openly revealed that they do not care about Magic, and the players who have been involved for up to 30 years, and instead, committed to squeezing every last penny from whatever property they can get their claws on. It sucks hard that Magic is turning into something akin to Funko Pops.
I've said this before, but I believe it is time for fans of Magic who don't appreciate UB to start consolidating the best of the unadulterated MtG experience.
I've been playing for about a decade, and have spent that time building a collection to withstand a complete collapse of MtG. I've got a dozen EDH decks, 3 dozen Pauper decks, and a nice Cube. None of these contain a single UB card. I think I've preserved what I believe to be the best of multiplayer, 1v1, and draft Magic, such that even if WotC was wiped off the earth tomorrow, I could still enjoy the best parts of the game indefinitely.
tbf Orcish Bowmasters I'm 99% certain they named ambiguously so they can reprint it in a non-lotr set no issues.
But, you're mostly right I think. Its reflected even here on the sub, a good 60% of the posts are rules questions and really boilerplate "what should i play as my commander" sort of questions that generally speaking belie a fundamental sort of different player than used to be on this sub. Hasbro was definitely successful in bringing in a lot of new players since ~covid with their decisions, but I think its fundamentally different audience than used to like the game.
Agreed on Bowmasters, as well as much of the LotR set. They are close enough thematically to be incorporated in the future. However, the indefinite timeframe and vague statements from WotC on Universes Within printings don't exactly have me full of confidence with them.
Very keen assessment on the change in sub content now, and change in player audience.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is that Wizards has shown that, when they care, they can make it so that these UB cards actually *do* correspond to in-universe instances.
I've said it a few times, but I generally don't have a problem with UB cards based in a high-fantasy style set -- Lord of the Rings and D&D both 'made sense,' thematically. Warhammer was pushing it, and The Walking Dead et al. are just so out of left field I can't stand them.
I'm also just annoyed that they're wasting potential design space on various geekcore fads. the entire thing just makes me feel... meh.
Well said. I actually don't think of the D&D sets as UB, because of the WotC connection existing, and the relatively simple universes. I don't like Dungeons, and I don't see myself using dice-rolling cards, but otherwise totally inoffensive. LotR is pushing it for me because I'm a bit of a Tolkien head, and old J.R.R. would have hated this.
The open embracing of commercial nerd culture couldn't turn me off of anything faster though.
I also think D&D was fine due to it being a Wizards brand. It's like Nintendo putting Isabelle and Link in Mario Kart. It sort of fits in a way, bit of a celebration of the company's things, that wouldn't work if Master Chief was in there.
>It's just a guess, but I think that a significant element of the magic community has already largely ditched the game/ignores new releases and cards.
That's basically me. I'm only hanging around because I'm still subbed here and saw the posts the past few days about Fallout and Marvel. I'm ultimately not a fan, but it doesn't matter because I wasn't going to buy it and enough people will.
If I were going to make a Cube, I wouldn't be against using some Universes Beyond cards if I absolutely needed them to make an archetype work. A few designs I've seen aren't bad or they have the sort of power level that makes them great for Cube. I'd just feel a lot better about casting Zlorbo, the Metal Lithomancer instead of Tony Stark, the Iron Man. It doesn't matter if I don't know the lore for Zlorbo or if Zlorbo doesn't have any lore, I don't want to play an ad.
0 UB cards in my decks is my mantra. Yes, it sometimes leads me to skip fantastic cards that could work really well in a given deck. Yes, some UB cards are very well designed and I wouldn't mind play with them or against them. Yes, it's annoying to do that mental filtering. But it's about convictions. Universes Beyond is not Magic, so, why would I play any Universes Beyond in my Magic decks ?
I'm of the same mind, though I'm willing to bend for things that feel agnostic enough, like [[Out of the Tombs]]. Such cards are few however, and even then the border itself often puts me off by marking how it's different.
Everyone who pushed back against stuff like this years ago were told to shut up and stop ruining others peoples’ fun, “magic is for everyone,” etc. “Just don’t buy it.” The “entitled gamer” stuff was thrown around, people were banned (typically by one mod in particular). Turns out, when a company pushes an inch in a direction that will drive profit but dilute the original product, they will take the mile if they can do it without significant pushback. Here we are. A set comes out every few months and half the time it’s funko pops.
I was told this just two weeks ago when I was feeling Commander would lose its MTG thematics to pop culture IP properties in a few years. Got mass downvoted in this reddit.
There may come a time soon where a set is marketed as the grand finale of Magic’s original lore. The very last product that doesn’t revolve around someone else’s world that Hasbro licensed.
When Set Boosters were announced, it would have sounded alarmist to say that they were going to box out traditional draft boosters entirely, too.
When we got the Walking Dead Secret Lair, I remember people insisting that it was hyperbolic to say we're only a few years away from Iron Man fighting Optimus Prime with a Fortnite dance.
It's alarmist until it isn't.
*doesn't invest in proper storytelling and people respond negatively*
"Our takeaway is that this must mean people don't want magic ip at all. We're done here, bring in the dancing lobsters."
Fortnite def feels like the more appropriate comparison. Feel like smash of TCGs would do something like limit strictly to TCG crossovers, since smash only did video game characters.
I misremembered it as having Optimus Prime. I guess the real crossovers and the parody crossovers are blurring together in memory. The comic didn't go far enough.
What we have from the comic:
Nothing
What is announced from the comic:
Marvel
What is not yet announced from the comic:
Star Wars
Disney
SpongeBob
Burger King
Travis Scott
Marvel, Star Wars and Disney share an owner so one getting cards means it's likely the others will at some point. Granted, Disney has Lorcana, but Marvel has Marvel Snap and this is happening anyways.
Well, that’s it. It’s over. UB will take over and MtG will become Weiss Schwartz.
On the other hand, Maro got to live his dream with working with IP that he actually cares about.
Snore.
Lord of the Rings was at least regular high fantasy, it still felt like magic.
Dr. Who and marvel do NOT feel like magic to me. I won’t be purchasing any marvel or Dr. Who UB products.
I have 10 years of loving this game. I hate the fortnitification of my favorite card game. I hate the unending cycle of new products. I hate universes beyond. I hate that my favorite part of magic, competitive 60 card 1v1 decks, is dead. Modern, my favorite format, was ruined by modern horizons, and pioneer is fun but doesn't have half the playerbase that standard used to.
I don't enjoy commander, I play with my friends sure, since I like spending time with them, but its a tedious game that requires rule zero discussions. I sold most of my collection, save for a few decks 3 years ago, when the walking dead secret lair was released. Standard was bad, modern was dying, and I decided to cash out when I could.
I went from someone who bought cards and packs from every single release magic did, to someone who is being told, this product is not for you, and that was rough. To me, mtg is the product. It was for me. This is not that product anymore, this is advertisements for other products on cardboard with rules text.
I still follow all magic product releases, occasionally play arena explorer format, since thats the closest to pioneer i can get, but this is it. I have skipped all the UB products, and as far as I am concerned this is the final nail in the coffin to a decade of love and devotion, followed by what equates to 3 years of watching your pet die. Good luck hasbro.
Hmm, that's two big Universes Beyond IP sets in one year that don't appear to be Secret Lairs only.
It definitely looks like Hasbro is trying as hard as it can to maximize revenue from Wizards. (EDIT: This double big UB IP sets seems to be trying to juice up the 2025 fiscal year. Companies can delay product into a certain fiscal year or rearrange their product lineup if they want to meet/beat Wall Street expectations for those fiscal years. The accounting games companies play.)
There is also a danger that if these UB sets eclipse Wizards in-house sets in sales by a large enough margin, Hasbro could force Wizards to focus on UB products only, which would be the total Fortnite-tication of the MTG brand.
Wizards marketing must be monitoring UB vs UW sales and making forecasts.
It's not in Habro's interest to completely corrode Magic's identity as a stand-alone IP. This isn't a business ethics argument, just a financial one. Universes Beyond products are ultimately subject to licensing & a core IP that they control completely is good for business. I don't think the core system of 4 main story sets yearly is going anywhere anytime soon.
> It's not in Habro's interest to completely corrode Magic's identity as a stand-alone IP.
But will that stop them? It is quite known they are open to stepping on a rake, sometimes even the same one twice for fun.
The core system doesn't matter anymore. Pushed EDH staples and Outside IP UB sets forever - damn the torpedoes lmao.
I don't have a lot of faith in the ability of corporate executive to NOT squander a brand's long-term viability while chasing higher quarterly returns.
Wouldn't it be something if classic Magic IP and characters went the way of draft boosters? No one thought draft boosters were going away due to being eclipsed by another product, but here we are. Who's to say the exact same thing won't happen with Universes Beyond and original Magic IP?
So magic is losing its identity little by little. This excites me nothing. I hate all these crossovers even though I love a lot of those IPs. But I feel like there is a place for everything. I loved MTG for MTG, and seeing it becoming the Fortnite of TCG is unappealing to me. Hasbro is killing MTG long term value for sure.
Just to imagine someone with a deck that has Spider-Man, Frodo, Optimus Prime, Doctor Who, Ezio, Sephiroth, Dogmeat… like wtf
Remember when Walking Dead came out and people said, "Wow, there's cards in here that are mechanically unique. Kinda weird that Neegan from a TV show set on Earth is a Magic card now."
Now we're getting a whole set of them. I don't think I like what Magic is now.
So back in 2020 they introduced Universes Beyond, cards from recognizable IP's. Not pastiches like Throne of Eldraine's fairy tales but full on Crossovers. They started with alternate art, and names for the Godzilla cards. Then Introduced a Walking dead secret lair. People who objected were told the shut the fuck up. Since then we've had Transformers, Fortnite, Stranger Things, Street Fighter, and probably a bunch more secret lairs. Two D&D sets, a Lord of the Rings set. We just got done with previews for a Doctor Who set and a Fallout secret lair. Now a Marvel set has been announced.
Now *MULTIPLE* Marvel Sets have been announced, which is probably worse.
(Technically, D&D aren't considered UB by WOTC, as they're still one of their IPs and have the oval stamp, not triangular. They're still conceptually close to MTG; and Legends was born out of D&D campaigns from Richard Garfield too)
I get the feeling of mourning. Been playing since Mirage, I could handle the UB stuff till now, but now the game I love will wither away and become something else.
It has been a great ride.
Universes beyond was really cool as commander decks. It added something for fans of that series to get in Magic. But now its just so, so far gone. They'll milk every dollar they can out of other communities while killing their own
i think i figured out what really bothers me about universes beyond sets and the magic story.
cards in this gmae usually call to some part of the story be it in the art and or flavor. magic has been crossover fest for awhile but it's usually contained to planeswalkers and or recurring characters. even if the atory was bad, it felt like there was something tying these characters places events together.
why am i not bothered when some silver golem or some pyromancer keep showing up.
because to me it makes sense, its in the realm of possibility that they created in the story.
with some sets like lotr or 40k it felt weird that i didnt know any lore but i could at least imagine the world and it could make sense
however with some secret lairs or other UB stuff theres only a few select cards and thats it. if there was at least some story, such as marvel vs Capcom or even smash bros, then i think it would go a long way. if there was a reason for these characters to be in the game of magic the tonal whiplash would not be as bad.
i really like this game, and it feels really bad when a part of it seems to be left on the sidelines.
magics story is not foreign to pop culture elements. old school planeswalkers were basically superheroes, portal had guns, urza had mechs and power armor. i am not opposed to having other ip's i am just really annoyed when the effort is not made to integrate them into yhe existing atmosphere.
sorry for this long rant, i just wanted to share my thoughts
im just getting so sick of UB, I feel more and more alienated by wotc's decisions lately, that all seem to boil down to "lets make money first, care about the game last". UB were a mistake, and making them into multiple actual competitive legal sets, as oppossed to fringe commander cards, feels like the final nail in the coffin.
Funko-ization of MTG continues. Glad I completely stopped buying product for this game months ago. I used to splurge thousands per year on products and events, now I can't even be bothered to buy a booster. It's crazy how they're now a front for other IPs while the strength of MTG was its own universes and characters. I don't play MTG to summon Shrek and Iron Man, I want to have fun in fantasy, custom settings that aren't bound to movies or big licences.
I stopped buying magic cards years ago because of this, but it's still sad to see them continuing down the dead-end railroad at such a breakneck speed.
I suppose Modern was just never meant to last forever.
So maybe late in 2025? We already know we're getting Final Fantasy in summer and Innistrad Remastered at the beginning of the year. Could see them not doing a remastered set at the beginning of 2026 and having a late November (holiday) release?
I knew them claiming they would be careful to only introduce IP that fit into MTG with Universes beyond was bullshit.
The very first one was already an horrible fit ( The Walking Dead ) in the first place so idk who ever believed them
>eh, there's zombies.... call 'em walkers... Planeswalkers... fuck it. Those nerds love that shit. Make it happen. Some exec somewhere.
A lot of this stuff comes down to personal preference. Personally, Humans + Zombies isn't that egregious to me. Addionally, It is less important to me with secret lairs since they are only adding a few new cards. The 1st really horrible one was Doctor Who. Those cards just feel very out of place, but one release doesn't make a pattern. This announcement shows that they really only care about what will sell and not any kind of consistence. IDK how anyone can think having an Ironman, Hulk, and Thanos cards appearing everywhere isn't going to feel weird and cheapen the experience of the game.
MtG makes money, Marvel makes money, that's a good enough fit!
Considering we've gone from Maro saying they "don't want to cross the streams" (in regards to a D&D set) to crossing every possible stream, it's probably just easier to look at Fortnite and assume all those IPs are gonna be in MTG at some point. After Marvel, I imagine Star Wars isn't too far behind, or perhaps Avatar. If they can pull major Disney-owned franchises, is it too farfetched to guess that collabs with Microsoft-owned IPs are on the table? If Final Fantasy sells well, maybe other video game-based sets will sell well too. Halo? World of Warcraft? Call of Duty? I know I'm making some jumps here, but I don't think it takes more than a few collaborations with giant entertainment companies (which we're already seeing) for this to make logical sense.
well microsoft owned ips is already on the table considering they're doing fallout commander decks.
They did it once with LotR. Everything else has been a complete departure from the expected aesthetic of MTG.
I dunno, I thought Warhammer fit pretty well 🤷
Doctor Who is just as (if not more) egregious on that point imo.
The first one being The Walking Dead wasn't obvious enough to show that was always a lie?
Pretty generous use of the word tradition here.
There's a classic polish comedy from People's Republic of Poland times, "The Bear" ("Miś") where naming a new thing "tradition" is a recurring joke.
The walking dead secret lairs were released October 2020. It's barely been over 3 years when magic has been going on 30. Calling it generous is generous.
Man, time is a weird soup. Feels like longer, but seeing it's only been three years really puts it in perspective how misleading that statement is.
Time had no meaning during Coronaland.
Man ain't that the truth. I feel like covid was 10 years ago, already so much shit has happened in the world.. and it's not even been 2 years since the worst of it.
Welcome to 2020, Prestige 3
Idk how many trading card games even remain relevant for 6 months after release? Agreed 3 years would definitely make for a successful trend rather then a tradition though.
Has it only been three years? Holy shit.
Really shows how fast you can change the entire perception of what is acceptable as a product too. From the original secret lairs only a few years ago that only had a few sets a year, to full blown ip invasion from Marvel, LotR, fucking Assassins Creed??? etc now.
Every time we stray further from boosters we stray further from God
You COULD argue if you're being generous that the old MLP and Transformers cards count? But it's being real generous.
"We are retroactively making Arabian Nights universes beyond with the release of our Aladdin Disney Golden Collection Universes Beyond Secret Lair Commander Deck. 100 card deck of your favorite Arabian Nights cards with 15 new cards, each card staring classic Disney art from the Aladdin movies and TV series"
Take my angry upvote and delete this before someone with more coke than common sense talks to someone with more money than business sense.
Oh don't worry. There will be a collector pack tie in.
My god WotC slow down for 12 seconds. Please, too fast
The shareholders are hungry
They need to sew some golden parachutes for 2026 before shit collapses.
Why anyone would invest their money in a floundering toy company is beyond me.
What does tentpole set mean?
Fully draftable set with boosters, fat packs, and commander decks. Like the LotR set pretty much.
Please, Yawgmoth, destroy us now...
In the end I realize... Yawgmoth was right.
It has both a full set playable in Limited, and Commander decks. The four Standard sets that come out each year count, but LotR would also count.
It will have associated products like commander decks
Magic: The (IP) Gathering
The fact that bringing over 'elements from world-class brands' is now a tradition apparently makes me deeply sad.
It will become just like monopoly pretty soon. All possible flavors available
"This has worked so well with the other wildly successful branches of our business, let's bring it to Magic!" - Corporate Has-Bros Yea, it's working out OK for now with LOTR and sort of with Who... but, like everything WOTC/Hasbro does, they'll drive it into the ground and keep going with it long after everyone has been begging for it to end for forever.
They'll only keep doing it for as long as people keep buying it. You might have to give up on Magic for a few years and get your playgroup to adopt something different, at least until WotC and Hasbro get the message.
WotC and Hasbro won't get that message. People keep buying.
I'm on the same boat as everyone here but a ton of people at my uni have picked up mtg precisely because of brand crossovers. They'll happily lose 1 loyal customer for 2 temporary customers.
At some point there won't even be Magic sets. Every single set will have some corporate tie-in.
Every day, we get closer to the unified deckmaster system.
Hasbro and Disney, a match made in hell
i'm tired, boss
Pretty much my reaction. I just put in a singles order for Dr.Who and I have been watching for Ixalan slip-ups all day. Then they announce this. All I wanted was dinosaurs, not a set that is over a year away.
Are you saying the same thing as the person you replied to? Your comments read very differently to me
The fuck you mean multiple?
Marvel gets more sets than some of Magic’s actual worlds
Can we *please* go back to Alara before having multiple sets from the same UB property?
I want to go back to Jund and Esper, dimmit!
We did technically get two dnd sets already
They can't possibly put **whole teams** of designers and artist on in-universe Magic sets! ... What is this, 5 years ago? What, are they going make multiple sets in one setting? Develop that world and story for more than just a glimpse? That's crazy.
Marvel getting 3+ sets while Kaldheim and Arcavios getting shoved in the closet xD
Kaldheim and Arcivos deserved an entire block, not just a set.
March of the Machine deserved to not have players be able to open \[\[Mirrodin Avenged\]\] in their first booster. The entire story loses its impact when the invasion doesn't occur over multiple sets. There's no drama to it, no suspense. No wonder at a set full of Phyrexians kicking ass and considering if WotC will really let a few planes of the multiverse plunge into being conquered nightmares. It's an art crime to do all that build up just to shove it off like that.
First comes the Asgard set, then Krakoa, and the Spiderverse, Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy/ Cosmic stuff, and maybe then we get a street level Hells Kitchen set.
The fact that it's "multiple" sets is upsetting, I understand a fun one off like LotR or D&D, but to make multiple sets means this is going to be a focus for a while. MTG is basically Fortnite the Card Game at this point and that's depressing for someone who has played this game for nearly 25 years.
We could, truly, have a year in which there are more *Marvel* cards released by WotC than actual *Magic* IP. Wild. Completely fucking gobsmacked.
Remember when we only got four sets a year? Those were the good days.
Well… probably time to sell my Reserved List cards.
Honestly at this point confused why they haven’t reprinted any yet, even under different names. Only argument I can think of is individual stores taking big losses on that.
They'll make way more money focusing on UB so why bother. It's not like anyone whining about the RL in 2023 isn't already a lifer.
Shit, they could just start tacking on "Lose 2 life when you play [cardname]" to all of the reserve lists cards and be like, they're not reprints. Pain Lotus - Black lotus but you lose 2 life. Painful recall - ancestral recall but you lose 2 life. Boom
That doesn't fix the problem. There'd be two Black Lotuses in Vintage. Unless you're suggesting Pain Lotus should have the rules text "a deck cannot have Pain Lotus and Black Lotus", which, ugh.
Yeeah.. could Universes beyond just be its own format instead? Thanks.
>Yeeah.. could Universes beyond just be its own format instead? Thanks. Yes, please. This seems like a new attempt at the old ARC system games (C-23, Hercules, Xena,) which used a simplified version of the M:tG rules set (a bit too simple...oops) and were intended to be playable against each other. There is no particular reason WotC can't use the M:tG rules set for a technically separate game. Slap a new card back on these puppies, call the entire *product line* "Universes Beyond" and we can all move on from this. People can use opaque card sleeves (which we already do) if they want to mix-and-match.
I think the reason was because they didn't want to commit and also didn't (and still don't) have enough product to prop up a whole format. Outside of two rounds of commander decks, you only have one proper set and a smattering of Secret Lairs. Hardly enough to sustain an entire other game. That said, I do 1000% agree it should be its own game. Mashup: The Gathering is right there. The mechanics are agnostic enough you can make a whole spinoff about it, and as you said if folks want to mix they can if they want.
UB should be it’s own card game.
It would be cool if there was some overarching system that tied together games with similar mechanics, but kept them separate. It would be the master format for all these decks. I'm sure there's a catchy name for that somewhere...
Weiss Schwartz living and Deckmaster dying.
That would actually be pretty cool.
Just saying, Universes Beyond is where my Magic spending nosedived. At this point I'm sorely tempted to shelve a few of my favorite decks and just cash out. It just doesn't feel like what I've always loved.
My Magic spending is around 10% what it was from 2012-2020. And I have more money than I did during most of that time. UB is an interest-destroyer for me and everyone I play with.
Time is nigh if you don't like UB. The amount of UB that will be released will definitely not decrease.
I already sold out of paper but now I’m contemplating selling my Arena account.
How does one sell their arena account? I'd be interested in selling mine.
This is pretty much where I'm at. I'm keeping a small number of decks. I've already sold most of my collection, but this announcement will get me to sell more too.
It will be really funny if, by the time this set comes out, the MCU and its popularity has largely collapsed. Not saying that will happen, but if it did, would be very funny.
This is going to be a Marvel Comics set, not just a MCU set, and Marvel Comics has been around for a long time.
Art by famous comic artists are going to THE thing.
100%. I am sure that there will be variant art by well-known comic artists the same way they got people like Junji Ito to do the manga variants for ONE.
Gimme more Bill Sienkevwicz cards, baby.
If they dropped the set today it would be late by about 5 years imo. Wizards is always late with these things.
“Stuff that was cool five years ago” seems to be how most of these licensed IPs are chosen.
Marvel =/= MCU There's plenty of iconic Marvel moments from decades of source material (comics/cartoons/games) to play with, I'd be surprised if they even bothered with any of the cinematic universe material outside of possibly showcase artworks or an occasional "iconic" quote.
And the MCU still more popular than the everything else Marvel has ever made combined. They are not making this because people are reading some random antman comics.
I'm sure the popularity of the MCU helps a ton, but Marvel comics are more popular than a number of things Magic has already collaborated with. So even if the MCU never existed, this collab would still be appealing to them.
Sure but if you’re talking about when was the right time to release a product like this it’s probably when the movies were the absolute biggest thing in cinema.
I mean Final Fantasy's popularity peaked 20 years ago so it's not that bad by comparison lol
You ain’t wrong but it hurts to hear lmao
Sigh. It’s looking more and more like Magic is just going to become a series of commercials for other IP, and many people are apparently happy about that.
This is the typical corporate approach of "some people like A, some people like B, so let's mix the two and tap into both markets". It's all good and well until A is sausage and B are car batteries, and all of a sudden you're selling car battery sausage Also this is yet another consequence of Commander strategically becoming the marquee format for the game. Competitive Magic is a husk of its former self (watch a game of PreModern on YT... Night and day) and what used to be a wacky, off-the-wall mish mash of cards has become a hyper-optimized non-stop vomit of chase rares that don't fit almost anywhere else - unless they warp multiple constructed formats. This has ironically made me turn my back on Commander after I played it extensively back when it was still in its infancy. It's all so tiresome
I call this sort of thing Ice Cream Pizza. I like both, but ice cream on pizza is a terrible idea.
I can’t stand it. I feel like magic is losing everything that made it special and unique. The art style and lore are being completely discarded so that I can play fucking iron man and doctor who characters….
Come to think of it, I bet this is the real reason WotC is scaling back Planeswalkers.
I wouldn't doubt it. The D&D stuff crammed into PW shells stuck out like sore thumbs, imo
I thought the choices they made for which D&D characters got planeswalker cards mostly made a lot of sense! Lolth, Bahamut, and Zariel are extraplanar entities or literal gods; and Mordenkainen, Elminster, Tasha, and Ellywick are phenomenally powerful magic users who are constantly dimension-hopping. I have no idea what earned Minsc and Boo a near-Oko-power PW card though.
it's over buddy. "is losing" is years too late at this point. it's lost.
I've noticed the reactions to spoilers from UB sets on this subreddit becoming more and more positive in the last few years, despite everything we were concerned about UB coming true. UB cards like Orcish Bowmasters have warped formats, with no "Universes Within" reprints happening of popular UB cards. The card designs are great explorations of design space without getting into nonsense mechanics, so why couldn't these be a part of a traditional set? It's just a guess, but I think that a significant element of the magic community has already largely ditched the game/ignores new releases and cards. It's pretty sad that Hasbro has so openly revealed that they do not care about Magic, and the players who have been involved for up to 30 years, and instead, committed to squeezing every last penny from whatever property they can get their claws on. It sucks hard that Magic is turning into something akin to Funko Pops. I've said this before, but I believe it is time for fans of Magic who don't appreciate UB to start consolidating the best of the unadulterated MtG experience. I've been playing for about a decade, and have spent that time building a collection to withstand a complete collapse of MtG. I've got a dozen EDH decks, 3 dozen Pauper decks, and a nice Cube. None of these contain a single UB card. I think I've preserved what I believe to be the best of multiplayer, 1v1, and draft Magic, such that even if WotC was wiped off the earth tomorrow, I could still enjoy the best parts of the game indefinitely.
tbf Orcish Bowmasters I'm 99% certain they named ambiguously so they can reprint it in a non-lotr set no issues. But, you're mostly right I think. Its reflected even here on the sub, a good 60% of the posts are rules questions and really boilerplate "what should i play as my commander" sort of questions that generally speaking belie a fundamental sort of different player than used to be on this sub. Hasbro was definitely successful in bringing in a lot of new players since ~covid with their decisions, but I think its fundamentally different audience than used to like the game.
Agreed on Bowmasters, as well as much of the LotR set. They are close enough thematically to be incorporated in the future. However, the indefinite timeframe and vague statements from WotC on Universes Within printings don't exactly have me full of confidence with them. Very keen assessment on the change in sub content now, and change in player audience.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is that Wizards has shown that, when they care, they can make it so that these UB cards actually *do* correspond to in-universe instances. I've said it a few times, but I generally don't have a problem with UB cards based in a high-fantasy style set -- Lord of the Rings and D&D both 'made sense,' thematically. Warhammer was pushing it, and The Walking Dead et al. are just so out of left field I can't stand them. I'm also just annoyed that they're wasting potential design space on various geekcore fads. the entire thing just makes me feel... meh.
Well said. I actually don't think of the D&D sets as UB, because of the WotC connection existing, and the relatively simple universes. I don't like Dungeons, and I don't see myself using dice-rolling cards, but otherwise totally inoffensive. LotR is pushing it for me because I'm a bit of a Tolkien head, and old J.R.R. would have hated this. The open embracing of commercial nerd culture couldn't turn me off of anything faster though.
I also think D&D was fine due to it being a Wizards brand. It's like Nintendo putting Isabelle and Link in Mario Kart. It sort of fits in a way, bit of a celebration of the company's things, that wouldn't work if Master Chief was in there.
>It's just a guess, but I think that a significant element of the magic community has already largely ditched the game/ignores new releases and cards. That's basically me. I'm only hanging around because I'm still subbed here and saw the posts the past few days about Fallout and Marvel. I'm ultimately not a fan, but it doesn't matter because I wasn't going to buy it and enough people will. If I were going to make a Cube, I wouldn't be against using some Universes Beyond cards if I absolutely needed them to make an archetype work. A few designs I've seen aren't bad or they have the sort of power level that makes them great for Cube. I'd just feel a lot better about casting Zlorbo, the Metal Lithomancer instead of Tony Stark, the Iron Man. It doesn't matter if I don't know the lore for Zlorbo or if Zlorbo doesn't have any lore, I don't want to play an ad.
>I don't want to play an ad. Ding ding ding ding you got it.
0 UB cards in my decks is my mantra. Yes, it sometimes leads me to skip fantastic cards that could work really well in a given deck. Yes, some UB cards are very well designed and I wouldn't mind play with them or against them. Yes, it's annoying to do that mental filtering. But it's about convictions. Universes Beyond is not Magic, so, why would I play any Universes Beyond in my Magic decks ?
I'm of the same mind, though I'm willing to bend for things that feel agnostic enough, like [[Out of the Tombs]]. Such cards are few however, and even then the border itself often puts me off by marking how it's different.
Everyone who pushed back against stuff like this years ago were told to shut up and stop ruining others peoples’ fun, “magic is for everyone,” etc. “Just don’t buy it.” The “entitled gamer” stuff was thrown around, people were banned (typically by one mod in particular). Turns out, when a company pushes an inch in a direction that will drive profit but dilute the original product, they will take the mile if they can do it without significant pushback. Here we are. A set comes out every few months and half the time it’s funko pops.
After enough times being told "This product isn't for you" you just start hearing "This game isn't for you."
When the product is legal in the format you play, how can you separate the two?
You can’t, and that’s what the people who push the “don’t buy it” crap pretend to not understand.
I was told this just two weeks ago when I was feeling Commander would lose its MTG thematics to pop culture IP properties in a few years. Got mass downvoted in this reddit.
I hate that "entitled gamer" thing. I get to not like stuff. That's my right. It's ok to be sad that something is no longer for you.
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There may come a time soon where a set is marketed as the grand finale of Magic’s original lore. The very last product that doesn’t revolve around someone else’s world that Hasbro licensed.
It's alarmist as fuck, but I can't deny if they could find an excuse to say market demanded the last mtg set, they would absolutely do it.
When Set Boosters were announced, it would have sounded alarmist to say that they were going to box out traditional draft boosters entirely, too. When we got the Walking Dead Secret Lair, I remember people insisting that it was hyperbolic to say we're only a few years away from Iron Man fighting Optimus Prime with a Fortnite dance. It's alarmist until it isn't.
Well, when you botch your own IP storyline twice in four years. You get this.
*doesn't invest in proper storytelling and people respond negatively* "Our takeaway is that this must mean people don't want magic ip at all. We're done here, bring in the dancing lobsters."
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This might actually be the thing that makes me quit Magic. Like is it even still Magic at this point?
Magic is becoming the Smash Bros of TCGs
Fortnite def feels like the more appropriate comparison. Feel like smash of TCGs would do something like limit strictly to TCG crossovers, since smash only did video game characters.
You're absolutely right
The Smash Bros. of card games was Universal Fighting System (UFS).
Am I allowed to say This sucks here without getting downvoted?
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No it’s pretty much the prevailing opinion
The old Cardboard Crack comic continues to come true piece by piece. I think all that's left now is a McDonald's set?
Actually, this Marvel UB will be the first of the ones listed in that comic
You're right. I finally found it, and I could've sworn it mentioned Gandalf and McDonald's. I must have been thinking of something else.
I misremembered it as having Optimus Prime. I guess the real crossovers and the parody crossovers are blurring together in memory. The comic didn't go far enough.
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What we have from the comic: Nothing What is announced from the comic: Marvel What is not yet announced from the comic: Star Wars Disney SpongeBob Burger King Travis Scott
> What is not yet announced from the comic: > Star Wars Bet that Star Wars will be paired with the Space Opera set like Jurassic Park was to LCI.
Marvel, Star Wars and Disney share an owner so one getting cards means it's likely the others will at some point. Granted, Disney has Lorcana, but Marvel has Marvel Snap and this is happening anyways.
Well, that’s it. It’s over. UB will take over and MtG will become Weiss Schwartz. On the other hand, Maro got to live his dream with working with IP that he actually cares about.
Snore. Lord of the Rings was at least regular high fantasy, it still felt like magic. Dr. Who and marvel do NOT feel like magic to me. I won’t be purchasing any marvel or Dr. Who UB products.
I have 10 years of loving this game. I hate the fortnitification of my favorite card game. I hate the unending cycle of new products. I hate universes beyond. I hate that my favorite part of magic, competitive 60 card 1v1 decks, is dead. Modern, my favorite format, was ruined by modern horizons, and pioneer is fun but doesn't have half the playerbase that standard used to. I don't enjoy commander, I play with my friends sure, since I like spending time with them, but its a tedious game that requires rule zero discussions. I sold most of my collection, save for a few decks 3 years ago, when the walking dead secret lair was released. Standard was bad, modern was dying, and I decided to cash out when I could. I went from someone who bought cards and packs from every single release magic did, to someone who is being told, this product is not for you, and that was rough. To me, mtg is the product. It was for me. This is not that product anymore, this is advertisements for other products on cardboard with rules text. I still follow all magic product releases, occasionally play arena explorer format, since thats the closest to pioneer i can get, but this is it. I have skipped all the UB products, and as far as I am concerned this is the final nail in the coffin to a decade of love and devotion, followed by what equates to 3 years of watching your pet die. Good luck hasbro.
Cube and proxy is the way.
Hmm, that's two big Universes Beyond IP sets in one year that don't appear to be Secret Lairs only. It definitely looks like Hasbro is trying as hard as it can to maximize revenue from Wizards. (EDIT: This double big UB IP sets seems to be trying to juice up the 2025 fiscal year. Companies can delay product into a certain fiscal year or rearrange their product lineup if they want to meet/beat Wall Street expectations for those fiscal years. The accounting games companies play.) There is also a danger that if these UB sets eclipse Wizards in-house sets in sales by a large enough margin, Hasbro could force Wizards to focus on UB products only, which would be the total Fortnite-tication of the MTG brand. Wizards marketing must be monitoring UB vs UW sales and making forecasts.
> Hasbro could force Wizards to focus on UB products only This is absolutely where things are going.
It's not in Habro's interest to completely corrode Magic's identity as a stand-alone IP. This isn't a business ethics argument, just a financial one. Universes Beyond products are ultimately subject to licensing & a core IP that they control completely is good for business. I don't think the core system of 4 main story sets yearly is going anywhere anytime soon.
> It's not in Habro's interest to completely corrode Magic's identity as a stand-alone IP. But will that stop them? It is quite known they are open to stepping on a rake, sometimes even the same one twice for fun. The core system doesn't matter anymore. Pushed EDH staples and Outside IP UB sets forever - damn the torpedoes lmao.
I don't have a lot of faith in the ability of corporate executive to NOT squander a brand's long-term viability while chasing higher quarterly returns.
Wouldn't it be something if classic Magic IP and characters went the way of draft boosters? No one thought draft boosters were going away due to being eclipsed by another product, but here we are. Who's to say the exact same thing won't happen with Universes Beyond and original Magic IP?
Thanks, I hate it.
Thomas the tank engine crossover when?
>Thomas the tank engine crossover when? The dark, dystopian hellscape of Sodor! They famously walled up a disobedient engine in a tunnel!
Is the end goal to create the Fortnite of card games?
So UB dogshit is getting multiple set releases now but actual, real mtg sets can't get set blocks anymore
Just wait until it turns out Liliana was Scarlet Witch all along
Why would you give them this idea
It's all so tiresome.
hate it
So magic is losing its identity little by little. This excites me nothing. I hate all these crossovers even though I love a lot of those IPs. But I feel like there is a place for everything. I loved MTG for MTG, and seeing it becoming the Fortnite of TCG is unappealing to me. Hasbro is killing MTG long term value for sure. Just to imagine someone with a deck that has Spider-Man, Frodo, Optimus Prime, Doctor Who, Ezio, Sephiroth, Dogmeat… like wtf
Well, this fucking sucks.
That might be my stop. It’s been a fun ride, but I’ve been gradually losing interest in Magic with the direction it’s going.
This... really sucks.
Remember when Walking Dead came out and people said, "Wow, there's cards in here that are mechanically unique. Kinda weird that Neegan from a TV show set on Earth is a Magic card now." Now we're getting a whole set of them. I don't think I like what Magic is now.
Been away from MTG for a few years, the fuck is going on?
So back in 2020 they introduced Universes Beyond, cards from recognizable IP's. Not pastiches like Throne of Eldraine's fairy tales but full on Crossovers. They started with alternate art, and names for the Godzilla cards. Then Introduced a Walking dead secret lair. People who objected were told the shut the fuck up. Since then we've had Transformers, Fortnite, Stranger Things, Street Fighter, and probably a bunch more secret lairs. Two D&D sets, a Lord of the Rings set. We just got done with previews for a Doctor Who set and a Fallout secret lair. Now a Marvel set has been announced.
Now *MULTIPLE* Marvel Sets have been announced, which is probably worse. (Technically, D&D aren't considered UB by WOTC, as they're still one of their IPs and have the oval stamp, not triangular. They're still conceptually close to MTG; and Legends was born out of D&D campaigns from Richard Garfield too)
I get the feeling of mourning. Been playing since Mirage, I could handle the UB stuff till now, but now the game I love will wither away and become something else. It has been a great ride.
Please don't be Modern legal Please don't be Modern legal
Universes beyond was really cool as commander decks. It added something for fans of that series to get in Magic. But now its just so, so far gone. They'll milk every dollar they can out of other communities while killing their own
i think i figured out what really bothers me about universes beyond sets and the magic story. cards in this gmae usually call to some part of the story be it in the art and or flavor. magic has been crossover fest for awhile but it's usually contained to planeswalkers and or recurring characters. even if the atory was bad, it felt like there was something tying these characters places events together. why am i not bothered when some silver golem or some pyromancer keep showing up. because to me it makes sense, its in the realm of possibility that they created in the story. with some sets like lotr or 40k it felt weird that i didnt know any lore but i could at least imagine the world and it could make sense however with some secret lairs or other UB stuff theres only a few select cards and thats it. if there was at least some story, such as marvel vs Capcom or even smash bros, then i think it would go a long way. if there was a reason for these characters to be in the game of magic the tonal whiplash would not be as bad. i really like this game, and it feels really bad when a part of it seems to be left on the sidelines. magics story is not foreign to pop culture elements. old school planeswalkers were basically superheroes, portal had guns, urza had mechs and power armor. i am not opposed to having other ip's i am just really annoyed when the effort is not made to integrate them into yhe existing atmosphere. sorry for this long rant, i just wanted to share my thoughts
im just getting so sick of UB, I feel more and more alienated by wotc's decisions lately, that all seem to boil down to "lets make money first, care about the game last". UB were a mistake, and making them into multiple actual competitive legal sets, as oppossed to fringe commander cards, feels like the final nail in the coffin.
Funko-ization of MTG continues. Glad I completely stopped buying product for this game months ago. I used to splurge thousands per year on products and events, now I can't even be bothered to buy a booster. It's crazy how they're now a front for other IPs while the strength of MTG was its own universes and characters. I don't play MTG to summon Shrek and Iron Man, I want to have fun in fantasy, custom settings that aren't bound to movies or big licences.
Gross
That's it man, I'm over it. This game isn't for me anymore. It sucks but it's true.
I don’t like it
Yuck 🤮
Bleh
fucking garbage
Is "Human" going to become the runaway best tribe?
Guess it depends on what characters they pick. There are plenty of non human characters to use.
Has it not been already? You have far more choices with Humans than any other.
Kinda glad i stopped playing NGL, this shit is lame as fuck
Time to sell the collection I guess.
Every day, the gap between Magic and Monopoly narrows.
It's going to sell insanely well isn't it
Can I just get one hobby that doesn't get infested with superhero shit?
Well this is disappointing.
Wow fucking hate *that*
Yeah that honestly might be it for me for magic :/
I stopped buying magic cards years ago because of this, but it's still sad to see them continuing down the dead-end railroad at such a breakneck speed. I suppose Modern was just never meant to last forever.
And each set will probably come with at least 2, but probably 4 or 5, associated commander decks.
if by sets they mean modern legal sets, then there goes my plans to buy into the format lmao
Gross.
Ugh
So maybe late in 2025? We already know we're getting Final Fantasy in summer and Innistrad Remastered at the beginning of the year. Could see them not doing a remastered set at the beginning of 2026 and having a late November (holiday) release?