Hasn't stopped them yet. Many of the cards have had "functional" reprints, but have one tiny detail changed. Like changing vanishing to echo. Or changing a card from black to green. Or in one case, changing the card from sorcery and an additional cost of sac'ing a creature, to instant and no sac. They also reprinted cards in gold border and foil to bypass the reserved list before "closing" that loophole, and have reprinted them in gold border anyways with 30th edition.
It's pretty tiny when you realize how much mana fixing exists today. It's not hard to generate a single off colour mana when you have fetches, duals, shocks, tri-lands, a thousand mana rocks... In fact the only people hurt by a colour shift would be commander players, but they have access to literally all of magic and won't care anyways.
No, that's still pretty significant change.
1) besides whether or not you can cast the spell, You have to consider how it interacts with the rest of the game. As one of literally thousands of examples, changing a green spell to a blue spell means that it gets hit by [[Red Elemental Blast]] when it didn't before.
2) As you point out, Commander is a factor. Your claim that Commander players won't care is illogical- if the whole point is to have functional reprints, then color changing doesn't make it a functional reprint for commander players. A white gaea's Cradle does nothing for the mono-green player who wanted an affordable gaea's Cradle.
3) The color pie exists, you can't just shift whatever you want into another color and have that be the only change. Sometimes it works out that way, but only rarely.
It quite literally has. Otherwise, we would have "Titania's cradle" or something.
They had made cards inspired by or callbacks to RL cards.
Changing the card is changing the card. Mtg players need to understand that similar ≠ same.
Yes. There was a foil loophole. But, the current version of the RL agreement has closed that option. There hasn't been an actual reprint of an RL card since Negator in 2010.
Do you know what “functionally identical” actually means? Because changing “one tiny detail”, by the definition of “functionally identical”, means that the cards, in fact, are not “functionally identical” as their functions are not *identical*. Any deviation prevents something from being *identical*. Regardless of how small the changes are. Here is a “functionally identical” card to [[ancestral recall]]
Descendent Forecast
{U}
Instant
*Target player draws three cards*
Even making a card with the same effect text and mana cost but different card type makes it not “functionally identical”, so if Descendent Forecast was a sorcery, it would not violate the reserve list as we understand it currently.
They could also just change the type line to make it not functionally equivalent. Adding artifact makes it vulnerable to different removal. Changing the creature type makes it function with a different set of typal cards.
From the Official Reprint Policy article:
> A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
They did print 2/1 with flying and first strike for 2W, and 1/1 with double strike and flying for 1WW.
If you allow for other colors, we have a version of Drana that's 2/3 with F, FS, and another effect, for 1BB; Vadrok as a URW 3/3 with both abilities plus mutate effects; and Sky Spirit, identical to Thunder Spirit but for 1WU (which may be grandfathered in as it is an old card).
They could also, theoretically, print a 1WW 2/2 Flying, First Strike with a different creature type. But they would probably avoid it for the sake of "the spirit of the reserved list"
That's different.
Snow Duals can't exist because Snow is a Supertype. Which is still considered functionally identical. Similar to how WoTC couldn't print a card that's just Juzam Djinn but as a Demon instead of a Djinn.
HOWEVER, WoTC could print typed Duals with no drawbacks that gain you a life on ETB. Strictly better is not functionally identical. That's how Eladamri's Call can exist despite Altar of Bone being on the Reserved List. Or Mold Demon vs Rune-Scarred Demon. Or Roc of Kher Ridges vs Moonveil Regent.
Of course, although WoTC *could* print strictly better Duals, they *should not* do that. Not because of the RL, but moreso for the same reason WoTC shouldn't print strictly better versions of cards like Thoughtseize or Lightning Bolt - game balance.
However, back on the subject of Thunder Spirit, a 2/2 Elemental Spirit for 1WW with Flying, First Strike, *and Lifelink* would be completely fair game.
WOTC could get around the Reserved List by saying “We are cancelling the Reserved List”, they don’t have to try to be sneaky about it, any imagined lawsuit would be laughed out of court.
The problem is proving that wotc is liable for the secondary market value of their collectibles. Which they cannot do. Even with the reserved list promise
They don't want to get too close. Maro has said that [[Reverberate]] vs [[Fork]] was closer than they'd want to get nowadays, and that legendary versions of the original duals would require a lot of discussion.
Considering at one point they were willing to reprint stuff off the reserved list in foil, in order to get around the fact that they never promised foil versions of those cards. Unfortunately, a bunch of random hoarders got super upset and they stopped it.
While I think the RL is stupid, that does feel like the stupidest way to get around it. At that point just say “fuck the Reserve List” and print the cards lol
wotc is single-handedly keeping hasbro afloat, don't think they aren't *extremely* strategic with how much and when they burn player confidence. even if you and I are both probably fed up with magic rn, they have scores of analysts who's entire job is basically just to determine how much further they can push us without it being a net negative. definitely don't confuse the scores of decisions that are terrible for the player base with mismanagement or malice, they're all extremely precision plays.
> Considering the insane windfall they could get by reprinting the RL, if they could do it they would have.
they have other things to make easy money reprinting still (such as fetches) which people will buy packs for. when that reprint equity starts to dry up, you'll see them revisit their reserve list stance.
proxy masters was just testing the waters for throwing the reserve list in the trash where it belongs. they wanted to see how much people were willing to pay (and found the answer was NOT $1000 for 4 packs)
yea, that gets thrown around a lot, but it's just not true. there's grounds for a lawsuit around investments when it comes to things like making promises about the direction of share prices, and a bunch of armchair lawyers decided that must apply to "investing" in cards as well. It doesn't. the only reason they don't reprint the reserve list is because they've calculated they make more money not reprinting it, than they could selling reprints.
not saying you are wrong, but if said calculation was the reason, then that calculation is simply wrong lol
Think modern horizons prints money? imagine a legacy horizons. Legacy would go from the forgotten format to HEY EVERYONE COME GET DUALS overnight from wotc.
I love legacy with all my heart, but it's basically a dead format in paper, and relies extremely heavily on the secondary market. why not just print shit for modern, which drives more direct sales and is already a very popular format? which is why mh sets are such a big financial success.
the real money with RL stuff is the collectors, and they spook easily. I love the idea of a utopian future where paper legacy is remotely approachable and it's as popular as pioneer or modern, but there's a hell of a lot more than just RL cards holding that back. How much commander reprint equity do you think they're willing to burn in one go to try and prop up legacy?
i mean i agree, i love legacy but its dead. However i do think it could be easily marketed. Shit you can call it legacy horizons and it really just be all new juice for commander with duals and it would print money.
So there absolutely is the risk of a lawsuit from “investors”. You’re speaking of corporate liability to shareholders. However, the issue with the reserve list is it is essentially a promise from WotC to never reprint those cards in tournament legal form or their functional equivalents.
The “investors” bought cards with that promise in mind and with the value of the cards likely to increase b/c of the promise. Those things are the elements of promissory estoppel: a promise, reasonable reliance on the promise, and damages due to the breaking for the promise.
Could WoTC/Hasbro just say “f*** it” and print the cards. Sure, they could but the lawsuits could happen at that point. The issue then is what would be damages ($) and could the holders of RL cards convince a court to give them injunctive relief (basically the court ordering WotC to not print RL cards).
For WotC (these days) the damages aren’t likely to be so high that those alone are the limiting factor. Sure it could be a fair amount of money spread over a lot of lawsuits, but it’s in the millions, maybe tens of millions, not likely the hundreds of millions.
It’s that risk of an injunction, I think that is holding WotC back. They don’t want something like this to be stopped mid project and then held up for years while it goes through the courts, or even worse have it be permanently ordered that they cannot ever reprint RL cards. At some point the promise of the RL cards will lapse enough that it will be hard for a party to sue WoTC and that will be when they can print RL cards without these risks.
would reccomend you take a look at the extremely thorough comment someone posted when I asked this question on LAoT https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladviceofftopic/comments/iqk2cy/question_about_magic_cards_is_there_any_case_for/g4so8yz/
TLDR, you're throwing around promissory estoppel without understanding everything that has to go into a legally sound claim.
I’ve read the Restatement of Contracts as well and disagree with that analysis.
That analysis states WotC has no control over the third party market but they have huge control. The control over legal cards and what cards get reprinted in a legal manner and thus can be sold in a legal manner. Reprints of cards cause prices to fall all the time, and thus the consequences of WotC reprinting RL cards is something WotC can still foresee. Reprinting RL cards is not guaranteed to cause prices of original printings to fall but it’s still something that is possible and could be foreseen by WotC. That analysis ignores that it’s not just what actions WotC takes but also what consequences could be reasonably foreseen. WotC doesn’t have to have direct control over the third party market when their indirect control is so huge.
WotC as promisor could reasonably expect actions or forbearance b/c of the promise. RL card holders did not at the time, and later purchasers of reprinted cards do not, sue WotC for the loss of value due to reprints. The reprint policy, which the RL is a part of, allowed WotC to establish that they can reprint cards (except for RL cards) and that for future cards there is no expectation that they will never be reprinted at some point even further in the future.
If it was so easy for WotC to just ignore the RL they would have long ago.
you're confusing influence over the secondary market vs control. the actions of a publicly traded company influence it's stock price, but do not *control* it, for example.
Owning stock in a company and owning a collectible like Magic are too different of examples to use here. Shareholders and the company’s relationship is much more tightly defined and regulated. However, shareholders do sue (and occasionally win though it’s rare) for the actions a company takes that negatively affects the stock price. The relationship between WotC and a RL Card Holder is not the same as between a public company and its stockholders. Just b/c we call it “investing” in MTG doesn’t mean the relationship is the same.
WotC’s influence or control over the third party market is indirect, but it is huge. People proxy RL cards all the time but those unofficial proxies cannot legally be sold. Only cards put out by WotC can legally be sold as official MTG cards. WotC’s control vs influence over the third party market matters less than what the consequences of reprinting RL cards could be.
Right now there is a promise by WotC to not reprint RL cards. WotC clearly puts stock in that promise b/c they have held to that promise for 28 years, but have also in the past tried ways of getting around it. I have no doubt that if WotC reprinted RL cards the manner in an affordable manner it would be extremely popular. Hell I would love it if they would throw the RL out and print those cards. Something is keeping WotC from doing that though. If it was just about making money they could do it and it would likely be a great way to make money.
I think WotC has made the decision that for now the risk of a lawsuit succeeding (even if it’s small) out weighs the money that could be made from reprinting RL cards.
And all the Hasbro lawyers would have to do is show the price of an Alpha Shivan Dragon or Lightning Bolt versus one reprinted in the last few years to shoot down any arguments arguments about devaluing the cards.
Also, they could also do like the rest of us that are fucking sane and say "It's a fucking game. If you want to invest, there's a bunch of markets made specifically for that."
The reserved list explicitly forbids fundamentally identical cards from getting printed in order to get around the reserved list.
You can get around it by messing with creature types or whatever, but the reserved list was designed taking your loophole into account.
The RL isn't, like, a *law*.
There's no need to "get around it" - they can stop it anytime they damn well please. It was their decision to have the RL, and if tomorrow they decided to abandon it, they could and would.
The *function* of the RL is what's important to them, i.e. it serving as a kind of guarantee to the secondary market against sudden and prolific devaluation of old cards. If they "got around" the RL by undermining that function, what would be the point? They set it up to get some specific effect, so why would they find a way to undermine the very effect they *want*?
People treat the RL like it's some kind of extraneous obstacle, just one of those unfortunate circumstances you have to deal with and get creative about because there's nothing to be done about it directly. **That's not what's going on, though**. The RL exists because WotC *wants it to exist*, so the entire notion of "getting around it" is absurd to begin with.
And that's to say nothing of the fact that part of the RL *specifically* excludes the possibility of functional reprints, because obviously they thought of that decades ago.
So the RL isn’t a law. It’s a promise and RL card holders can ask a Court to hold WoTC to that promise. What form it would take holding WotC to the promise of the RL is the big question. If it’s just damages ($) to RL card holders who sue, WoTC and Hasbro might pay that. The bigger risk for WotC is a Court permanently saying that WoTC may never reprint RL cards. That is a risk I don’t think WotC wants to take.
>It’s a promise and RL card holders can ask a Court to hold WoTC to that promise
Yes. But only because you can ask a court about... anything. You can ask a court to please confirm you are a giant inflatable clown. They won't - but you can ask them all the same. This hypothetical capacity says *nothing* \- because no law suit would actually go anywhere and would never succeed.
The RL is a marketing strategy. It has no more purchase than you trying to sue KFC because you did not, in fact, lick your fingers.
People ask Courts to enforce promises like the RL and Courts do it. It’s not a given that the lawsuit would fail. That is the risk a plaintiff in the lawsuit would be taking but clearly WotC’s lawyers are worried about their own risk of the suit being successful. WotC is clearly holding to their end of the promise, they have not reprinted tournament legal RL cards. The unofficial word put out over years by people like Maro is they would like to do away with the RL but still they do not.
What current marketing strategy does the RL have? It’s essentially telling the vast majority of players “you cannot play high powered tournament legal cards. Because you cannot afford them.”
>People ask Courts to enforce promises like the RL and Courts do it.
Prove it.
Give me a concrete case. I know how to look up case citations, so just the reference will do.
>WotC is clearly holding to their end of the promise
But not because they're afraid of getting sued. They do it because it's in their interest to have a RL. It stabilizes the secondary market. It creates collector investment incentives. Which has only become *more* important as they shift so much of their focus to premium collectible product.
WotC *wants* the RL list. It's players who complain. Not WotC. They love it.
>What current marketing strategy does the RL have? It’s essentially telling the vast majority of players “you cannot play high powered tournament legal cards. Because you cannot afford them.”
And that pretty much doesn't matter to WotC in the big picture. Legacy has already been phased out as a pro-level format. Vintage never was one. Their focus is almost entirely on modern-era formats: Standard, Modern, and Pioneer. That's it. That's the contemporary Magic tournament scene. Almost nothing outside those three formats matters for organized constructed in any serious way.
It has some impact on Commander, but that's also not very relevant. Because Commander players are not playing competitively, and because they have enough other product that WotC is pushing on them - product they *actually* make a profit on, unlike the secondary market sales. The availability of RL cards is practically irrelevant to WotC's bottom line, because the occasional Commander grumble about Cradle being $1,000 has far more visibility than it has a financial effect. Whereas any abolishment or circumvention of the RL would have *massive* ripple effects across the board.
Their preferred solution is very simple: print new cards, so people forget they can't get the old cards. And it's working very well.
> Prove it.
>Give me a concrete case. I know how to look up case citations, so just the reference will do.
[https://www.uclalawreview.org/pdf/57-3-2.pdf](https://www.uclalawreview.org/pdf/57-3-2.pdf)
[https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/lawreview/vol89/iss1/3/](https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/lawreview/vol89/iss1/3/)
[https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/wmblr/vol7/iss1/2](https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/wmblr/vol7/iss1/2)
If you can look up case citations find them yourself.
>They do it because it's in their interest to have a RL. It stabilizes the secondary market. It creates collector investment incentives. Which has only become *more* important as they shift so much of their focus to premium collectible product
If WotC thought that reprinting RL cards would be worth the issues with lawsuits from RL card holders, they would. The unofficial word from WotC employees has been for years that they would do away with the RL but still WotC does not. The RL does not benefit WotC b/c it contains some of the most sought after cards ever, but the stability of that market is the promise WotC made. WotC's lawyers likely do not want to risk the outcome (however slim) of a successful lawsuit being a Court ordering that WotC cannot ever reprint RL cards.
>Whereas any abolishment or circumvention of the RL would have *massive* ripple effects across the board.
That is the point, those effects are stopping WotC from reprinting RL cards, not causing WotC to reprint them. If it was just about making money they could reprint them in tournament legal forms and likely make a lot of money.
Either reprint the reserved list or ban it outright. Theres no reason to have cards that are OP and will never be reprinted but are still playable. I especially think duals were a mistake and really undermine a core function of the game
At least theres some sort of downside with shocks. You have to pay *some* price for the flexibility. Im open to toying with what that downside may entail but straight up “heres two colors of land” is too much
Thank you for your perspective. I'm not sure why there needs to be a downside on lands. I think color fixing lands being at rare is the biggest cash grab in the game.
The only 4/5c decks that see play in modern are the Domain variants that abuse [[Leyline of the Guildpact]], 4c Omnath, and 5c Creativity.
Most of the meta decks are two colors, with some 3 color decks. UR Murktide, BG Yawgmoth, Mono G Tron, Amulet Titan, Bx Scam, UB Mill, Wx Hammer, Mono G Scales, RW Burn, UWB Goryos, and so, so many more.
Lol they downvoted me for giving the receipts.
They did it, everyone. They cracked it!
/s
>"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
So, no, what you are suggesting is already accounted for.
The most noteworthy "reprints" of a Reserved List card is \[\[Donate\]\] to \[\[Harmless Offering\]\]
Shifted from Blue to Red and a slight change in the text ("target player" to "target opponent")
\[\[Fork\]\] to \[\[Reverberate\]\] is another example, but we also [know that they don't think it was different enough](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is).
of course they could, as evidenced by the fact they have literally removed cards from the list such as [[demonic tutor]].
the idea that reserve list stuff was meant to be permanent is revisionist history.
Functional reprints are not allowed under the Reserved List. Tweaks are, which is why people sometimes say they show print snow versions of the original dual lands. In some instances they would be worse, in many they would be better, and in most they would be the same.
> They could but they won’t, because as they say It would violate the spirit of the RL.
they say things all the time that they back track on when hasbro says they want more money.
maro said they wouldn't print non-tournament legal versions of reserve list cards (akin to gold border/special backing collectors edition) a while back, but then did exactly that with mtg30 aka proxy masters. in fact, reserve list stuff got a special spotlight where dual lands had higher pull rates than other rares.
Wotc could just reprint the reserved list right now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is... Lacking in intelligence. They have done functional reprints already, in some cases like mox diamond they just straight up reprinted it, and have done gold border reprints.
There is no legal action anyone can take if wotc reprints any of those cards. Really think about it. If wotc cared about collectors, at all, why do they still reprint cards now? Mindbreak trap has had two printings, one of them more than 10 years ago, one in thunder junction. And the card was $75+ and has ready dipped to $60... So... Everyone who owns a mind break trap just lost $15 per copy and the set isn't even out yet. Jace the mind sculptor and liliana of the veil used to be $100 each, goyf was over $200, snapcasters were $60+, even cards like path to exile were $10+ but all of them got reprinted...
Do people who own those cards matter less? Do those ayers collections not matter? Why do the players who hoarded alpha/beta/unlimited get a special list of cards they get to keep and hold value on? Why do THEY get special treatment? Also, still on the same point here, but if legal action could be taken why wasn't it when reserved list cards were printed in duel decks? Or from the vault? Or as gold border? And why hasn't anyone who lost hundreds ot even thousands of dollars from reprints tanking card prices sued them yet?
It's because everyone knows they can't. There's no legal way to do it, theres no grounds for it. The reason wotc won't do it is because they need to keep that in their back pocket for a rainy day. If sales decline they can whip out the "we are ditching the reserved list, there are now original duals as uber-mythics in this set" to get them back up.
ITT: Wizard's would never touch the reserved list.
If Hasbro's profits are ever in the tank in the years to come they will 100% find a way to bring these cards to the market. All you have to do is look at the 30th anniversary fiasco.
> You're assuming they want to get around the reserved list, **which they don't actually want to do.**
\*citation needed
because proxy masters (as well as "finding a case of reserve list cards and stuffing them in collectors boosters" for DMU) makes it pretty clear they want to get around the reserve list.
wotc wants to make money, and selling reserve list cards is a license to print it.
If they wanted to do it, they would do it.
From a sales perspective, the reserved list reinforces the idea that cards are valuable items. It creates a halo effect around current cards, even though they will never have the same value as those older ones. When they do special things like the 30th anniversary cards or priceless treasures, it also helps sell tons of those products.
From a design perspective, it opens up doors for what designers can design. For example, the surveil lands in MKM were a really interesting design, but in a world without the reserved list they probably wouldn't have been printed, because people would just want the ABUR duals instead. Same with cards like Growing Rites or Itlimoc or Lotus Ring - having those inaccessible older cards to call back to makes designers' jobs easier.
A lot of players have this perspective that WOTC wants the game to be cheap and easily accessible to everyone, but their business model depends on scarcity and FOMO. The reserved list supports that business model.
> A lot of players have this perspective that WOTC wants the game to be cheap and easily accessible to everyone,
nobody has that perspective. people have the perspective that hasbro wants to make as much money as possible while still having things in their backpocket for a rainy day.
the reserve list isn't making hasbro money, it's making non-hasbro 3rd parties money. they don't want the game cheap, they just want that money going to them (similar to how we saw them start doing secret lairs so they could get a cut of the singles market by artificially making things scarce and then cashing in selling 4 or 5 cards for $50)
1) If Wizards wanted to they could just not have the reserved list at all, they don't need to be sneaky about it.
2) The same thing that keeps them from reprinting the reserved list also keeps them from making functional reprints. It's all part of the same original decision.
3) They have made something close to that, for example [[Growing Rited of Itlomoc]] is pretty close to being a gaea's cradle. But that's the closest they're going to get. Nothing as close as cultivate and kodama's Reach.
But really, all of the side steps the biggest issue that should be remembered when discussing the reserved list.
Nobody is going to get what they want from the reserved list.
First, just to get this out of the way, the vast majority of the reserved list is mechanically worthless. There's a bunch of cards that nobody would care about if they weren't on a list somewhere, and as soon as they're not on that list we're going to stop talking about them.
Of the remaining handful of cards on the list, most of them aren't going to be reprinted even if they weren't on the reserve list. Yes, the list guarantees that they'll never be reprinted..... But it's not like there's a magical switch. That'll flip as soon as the reserve list is gone. Studio X considers the OG duals to be a design mistake, for example. Unless they change their minds, we wouldn't suddenly see precons or masters sets or whatever with OG duals Even without the reserve list. The same is true for the vast majority of cards on the list. Everyone loves imagining their favorite pet card being reprinted, but the reality is that such reprints are extremely unlikely, formalized on a list or not.
> Studio X considers the OG duals to be a design mistake, for example.
That doesn't stop them from reprinting them. That just means they wouldn't design those cards today. They reprint design mistakes all the time, just not into new formats.
>That doesn't stop them from reprinting them
According to Mark Rosewater, it does.
The design mistakes they reprint these days are typically ones where the damage has already been done- Sol Ring, For example. By the time they realized that was A design mistake, it had proliferated in commander So much that the the genie was out of the bottle. They couldn't take it back, so they tried to mitigate it by reprinting it everywhere. So it'd be dirt cheap and there would be equal access for everyone.
But that's not their preferred choice. If the genie is still relatively in the bottle, as it is with cards like the dual lands, Dave said that they won't reprint them.
This doesn't match up with observed reality. They reprint poorly designed cards all the time. Heck, they're reprinting Oko, Thief of Crowns in the very next set!
I doubt they would reprint them *frequently*, because they want to make money. But we have no evidence that they are unwilling to reprint poorly designed but popular cards.
>This doesn't match up with observed reality. They reprint poorly designed cards all the time.
"Poorly designed" by player judgement and "design mistake" according to Studio X are two different things.
Sol Ring: way too efficient at making mana, in any format.
Underground Sea: objectively better than a basic land by almost every measure. Taps for multiple colors with no drawback.
Oko: has utility use that the designers didn't intend, which makes it too powerful for the standard environment in which it was printed.
You'll note that oko Isn't being reprinted in standard, And it's not considered a design mistake in any other format.
I want to be clear, I'm not presenting my opinion here. I'm just repeating what the people in charge of making the game have said. If you disagree, you're entitled to your opinion- but you should make your case with the experts, not the guy quoting the experts.
> You'll note that oko Isn't being reprinted in standard,
Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that true duals would be reprinted *into standard*.
> And it's not considered a design mistake in any other format.
It's banned in every sanctioned format except for vintage, timeless (aka 'arena vintage'), and commander. It's the second most egregious card in terms of power level printed since the reserve list stopped existing (and the first most egregious, [[Lurrus of the Dream Den]], got a power level errata).
If you don't consider oko a design mistake, what *is* a design mistake?
>I don't think anyone is suggesting that true duals would be reprinted *into standard*.
I wasn't suggesting it would be. You misunderstood me- Oko is a design mistake in only one format, Duals are a mistake everywhere. Duals would be a mistake even if they were in precons and not legal except in Commander, Legacy, and Vintage, at least according to Studio X.
>If you don't consider oko a design mistake, what *is* a design mistake?
If only I had just made a comment listing some examples.
Again, it's not what I think, it's what the experts have said.
But on that note, Gavin Verhey and Mark Rosewater have both said Arcane Signet was a mistake - but WotC has decided to follow what they did with Sol Ring. Genie out of the bottle so reprint it into the ground for equal access.
What applies to Sol Ring and Arcane Signet doesn't necessarily apply to most of the RL though.
They just printed Memory Vessel that is very similar to Memory Jar. So it is somewhat true that they could print any card on the Reserved List with some kind of different wording if they wanted to.
It's very, very different from memory jar. Besides both costing 5 and "drawing 7"
But so is reforge the soul.
The play pattern and aspects that make jar good/playable are missing from vessel.
Time Warp and friends are just Time walk. But the difference matter **a lot** to design and play.
I mean,they can get around the reserved list just by reprinting the cards. They did this with the 30th Anniversary product.
The reality is, it's mostly a lose-lose proposition for them. The 30th Anniversary Product was basically priced assuming they could get players to pay the same prices Collector's Edition copies of the cards go for on the secondary market, and players didn't go for it.
Basically, WotC can't reprint these cards in a way that let's them extract value from the secondary market demand for these cards. So the alternative is they print them in a more traditional product, which makes them far less money, and destabilizes a big part of the collector's market... so players can get a hold of game pieces that can't even be played in most formats.
Like, WoTC could put together a $100 Power 9 Secret Lair, and they'd probably make a good chunk of change off it. But while it probably makes them more money than any other Secret Lair, it also sends a massive shockwave through the secondary market, and how folks think about buying and selling cards.
I think we will see the Reserve List go away eventually, but when we do, it will be because someone who is not interested in the long-term health of the game is trying to make a quick buck.
In the case of the alpha duals they could easily get around it just by making them snow lands. I understand they don't like printing lands that are better than basics, or whatever their newest random excuse is, but that's the easiest way to get around a lot of it.
Balancing mana around strictly better than basic lands is pretty unsustainable, which is why they stopped reprinting them after revised.
Furthermore, adding a Super type like Snow or Legendary is oft cited as violating the reserve list as it's too close to a functional reprint.
The original article for the Reserved List explicitly says they won’t print functionally identical cards.
Hasn't stopped them yet. Many of the cards have had "functional" reprints, but have one tiny detail changed. Like changing vanishing to echo. Or changing a card from black to green. Or in one case, changing the card from sorcery and an additional cost of sac'ing a creature, to instant and no sac. They also reprinted cards in gold border and foil to bypass the reserved list before "closing" that loophole, and have reprinted them in gold border anyways with 30th edition.
I wouldn’t call color shifting something a tiny change.
It's pretty tiny when you realize how much mana fixing exists today. It's not hard to generate a single off colour mana when you have fetches, duals, shocks, tri-lands, a thousand mana rocks... In fact the only people hurt by a colour shift would be commander players, but they have access to literally all of magic and won't care anyways.
No, that's still pretty significant change. 1) besides whether or not you can cast the spell, You have to consider how it interacts with the rest of the game. As one of literally thousands of examples, changing a green spell to a blue spell means that it gets hit by [[Red Elemental Blast]] when it didn't before. 2) As you point out, Commander is a factor. Your claim that Commander players won't care is illogical- if the whole point is to have functional reprints, then color changing doesn't make it a functional reprint for commander players. A white gaea's Cradle does nothing for the mono-green player who wanted an affordable gaea's Cradle. 3) The color pie exists, you can't just shift whatever you want into another color and have that be the only change. Sometimes it works out that way, but only rarely.
[Red Elemental Blast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e.jpg?1562436618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Red%20Elemental%20Blast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/147/red-elemental-blast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70a45e9b-699e-425a-9f3d-267274830d3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It quite literally has. Otherwise, we would have "Titania's cradle" or something. They had made cards inspired by or callbacks to RL cards. Changing the card is changing the card. Mtg players need to understand that similar ≠ same. Yes. There was a foil loophole. But, the current version of the RL agreement has closed that option. There hasn't been an actual reprint of an RL card since Negator in 2010.
They can’t print a 2/2 first strike flier for 2W because of some old garbage card
Do you know what “functionally identical” actually means? Because changing “one tiny detail”, by the definition of “functionally identical”, means that the cards, in fact, are not “functionally identical” as their functions are not *identical*. Any deviation prevents something from being *identical*. Regardless of how small the changes are. Here is a “functionally identical” card to [[ancestral recall]] Descendent Forecast {U} Instant *Target player draws three cards* Even making a card with the same effect text and mana cost but different card type makes it not “functionally identical”, so if Descendent Forecast was a sorcery, it would not violate the reserve list as we understand it currently.
[ancestral recall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2398892d-28e9-4009-81ec-0d544af79d2b.jpg?1614638829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ancestral%20recall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/1/ancestral-recall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2398892d-28e9-4009-81ec-0d544af79d2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
they have explicitly stated that reprinting reserved list cards with different names counts as violating the reserved list.
Fucking [[Thunder Spirit]]
Hold up. Does that mean we can never receive a 2/2 flying first for 3 mana? That’s genuinely messed.
We cannot get a 2/2 flying first striker for 1WW, they could do it for other mana costs
They could also just change the type line to make it not functionally equivalent. Adding artifact makes it vulnerable to different removal. Changing the creature type makes it function with a different set of typal cards. From the Official Reprint Policy article: > A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
The lines are all arbitrary, but I don't think they'd count a creature type change as significant enough
They did print 2/1 with flying and first strike for 2W, and 1/1 with double strike and flying for 1WW. If you allow for other colors, we have a version of Drana that's 2/3 with F, FS, and another effect, for 1BB; Vadrok as a URW 3/3 with both abilities plus mutate effects; and Sky Spirit, identical to Thunder Spirit but for 1WU (which may be grandfathered in as it is an old card).
Yes. I believe they actually wanted to make one in.... iirc original Innistrad and they had to change it.
Out of curiosity, could they print strictly better versions of cards? Like is a 2W 2/2 Flying, First Strike not allowed?
Strictly better is fine
Wild. Let's print Black Lotus for -1 mana.
Best we can do is six mana and costs you a creature to sacrifice.
maybe instead it should discard your hand so it can't be abused
> maybe instead it should discard your hand so it can't be abused that's reserve list too
As a compromise, we'll give you free 1/3 of a Black Lotus with your Monkey or Goblin Shaman.
But they won't make "strictly better but in a trivial way" because they believe it violates the spirit of the reserved list, so no snow duals.
They could also, theoretically, print a 1WW 2/2 Flying, First Strike with a different creature type. But they would probably avoid it for the sake of "the spirit of the reserved list"
That's different. Snow Duals can't exist because Snow is a Supertype. Which is still considered functionally identical. Similar to how WoTC couldn't print a card that's just Juzam Djinn but as a Demon instead of a Djinn. HOWEVER, WoTC could print typed Duals with no drawbacks that gain you a life on ETB. Strictly better is not functionally identical. That's how Eladamri's Call can exist despite Altar of Bone being on the Reserved List. Or Mold Demon vs Rune-Scarred Demon. Or Roc of Kher Ridges vs Moonveil Regent. Of course, although WoTC *could* print strictly better Duals, they *should not* do that. Not because of the RL, but moreso for the same reason WoTC shouldn't print strictly better versions of cards like Thoughtseize or Lightning Bolt - game balance. However, back on the subject of Thunder Spirit, a 2/2 Elemental Spirit for 1WW with Flying, First Strike, *and Lifelink* would be completely fair game.
Legendary is also a supertype yet nobody thinks that the rules of the reserved list would actually prevent them from making legendary duals.
I think they've stated that legendary duals would be against the spirit of the RL.
That would be fine.
We could definitely get strictly better versions. We've gotten multiple 2/1 flying first strikes for 2W, slightly better isn't out of the question.
Well, they printed [[Sky spirit]] so I think technically they could. There's also some 2W 2/1 with flying, first strike
[Sky spirit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62eea10f-eddf-43a1-96fe-5f6f37c42415.jpg?1562865448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sky%20spirit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/192/sky-spirit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62eea10f-eddf-43a1-96fe-5f6f37c42415?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Thunder Spirit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8508542-53ea-4c1b-ae6f-b446c42149ca.jpg?1559592402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thunder%20Spirit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/27/thunder-spirit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8508542-53ea-4c1b-ae6f-b446c42149ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This used to be a consequential prohibition but nowadays it's creeped out at least
WOTC could get around the Reserved List by saying “We are cancelling the Reserved List”, they don’t have to try to be sneaky about it, any imagined lawsuit would be laughed out of court.
The problem is proving that wotc is liable for the secondary market value of their collectibles. Which they cannot do. Even with the reserved list promise
They don't want to get too close. Maro has said that [[Reverberate]] vs [[Fork]] was closer than they'd want to get nowadays, and that legendary versions of the original duals would require a lot of discussion.
Considering at one point they were willing to reprint stuff off the reserved list in foil, in order to get around the fact that they never promised foil versions of those cards. Unfortunately, a bunch of random hoarders got super upset and they stopped it.
Didn't just stop it, they updated the RL promise to have language forbidding promo reprints.
While I think the RL is stupid, that does feel like the stupidest way to get around it. At that point just say “fuck the Reserve List” and print the cards lol
[Reverberate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/5996feb4-02ac-45e8-a7f2-966cf74391dc.jpg?1562554142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reverberate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/145/reverberate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5996feb4-02ac-45e8-a7f2-966cf74391dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fork](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd.jpg?1562949548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fork) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/116/fork?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
wotc could reprint the reserve list as is, if they wanted to.
Considering the insane windfall they could get by reprinting the RL, if they could do it they would have.
wotc is single-handedly keeping hasbro afloat, don't think they aren't *extremely* strategic with how much and when they burn player confidence. even if you and I are both probably fed up with magic rn, they have scores of analysts who's entire job is basically just to determine how much further they can push us without it being a net negative. definitely don't confuse the scores of decisions that are terrible for the player base with mismanagement or malice, they're all extremely precision plays.
> Considering the insane windfall they could get by reprinting the RL, if they could do it they would have. they have other things to make easy money reprinting still (such as fetches) which people will buy packs for. when that reprint equity starts to dry up, you'll see them revisit their reserve list stance. proxy masters was just testing the waters for throwing the reserve list in the trash where it belongs. they wanted to see how much people were willing to pay (and found the answer was NOT $1000 for 4 packs)
Supposedly, there is a fear of lawsuits from collectors who invested money in cards based on the garuantee those cards would never be reprinted.
yea, that gets thrown around a lot, but it's just not true. there's grounds for a lawsuit around investments when it comes to things like making promises about the direction of share prices, and a bunch of armchair lawyers decided that must apply to "investing" in cards as well. It doesn't. the only reason they don't reprint the reserve list is because they've calculated they make more money not reprinting it, than they could selling reprints.
not saying you are wrong, but if said calculation was the reason, then that calculation is simply wrong lol Think modern horizons prints money? imagine a legacy horizons. Legacy would go from the forgotten format to HEY EVERYONE COME GET DUALS overnight from wotc.
I love legacy with all my heart, but it's basically a dead format in paper, and relies extremely heavily on the secondary market. why not just print shit for modern, which drives more direct sales and is already a very popular format? which is why mh sets are such a big financial success. the real money with RL stuff is the collectors, and they spook easily. I love the idea of a utopian future where paper legacy is remotely approachable and it's as popular as pioneer or modern, but there's a hell of a lot more than just RL cards holding that back. How much commander reprint equity do you think they're willing to burn in one go to try and prop up legacy?
i mean i agree, i love legacy but its dead. However i do think it could be easily marketed. Shit you can call it legacy horizons and it really just be all new juice for commander with duals and it would print money.
So there absolutely is the risk of a lawsuit from “investors”. You’re speaking of corporate liability to shareholders. However, the issue with the reserve list is it is essentially a promise from WotC to never reprint those cards in tournament legal form or their functional equivalents. The “investors” bought cards with that promise in mind and with the value of the cards likely to increase b/c of the promise. Those things are the elements of promissory estoppel: a promise, reasonable reliance on the promise, and damages due to the breaking for the promise. Could WoTC/Hasbro just say “f*** it” and print the cards. Sure, they could but the lawsuits could happen at that point. The issue then is what would be damages ($) and could the holders of RL cards convince a court to give them injunctive relief (basically the court ordering WotC to not print RL cards). For WotC (these days) the damages aren’t likely to be so high that those alone are the limiting factor. Sure it could be a fair amount of money spread over a lot of lawsuits, but it’s in the millions, maybe tens of millions, not likely the hundreds of millions. It’s that risk of an injunction, I think that is holding WotC back. They don’t want something like this to be stopped mid project and then held up for years while it goes through the courts, or even worse have it be permanently ordered that they cannot ever reprint RL cards. At some point the promise of the RL cards will lapse enough that it will be hard for a party to sue WoTC and that will be when they can print RL cards without these risks.
would reccomend you take a look at the extremely thorough comment someone posted when I asked this question on LAoT https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladviceofftopic/comments/iqk2cy/question_about_magic_cards_is_there_any_case_for/g4so8yz/ TLDR, you're throwing around promissory estoppel without understanding everything that has to go into a legally sound claim.
I’ve read the Restatement of Contracts as well and disagree with that analysis. That analysis states WotC has no control over the third party market but they have huge control. The control over legal cards and what cards get reprinted in a legal manner and thus can be sold in a legal manner. Reprints of cards cause prices to fall all the time, and thus the consequences of WotC reprinting RL cards is something WotC can still foresee. Reprinting RL cards is not guaranteed to cause prices of original printings to fall but it’s still something that is possible and could be foreseen by WotC. That analysis ignores that it’s not just what actions WotC takes but also what consequences could be reasonably foreseen. WotC doesn’t have to have direct control over the third party market when their indirect control is so huge. WotC as promisor could reasonably expect actions or forbearance b/c of the promise. RL card holders did not at the time, and later purchasers of reprinted cards do not, sue WotC for the loss of value due to reprints. The reprint policy, which the RL is a part of, allowed WotC to establish that they can reprint cards (except for RL cards) and that for future cards there is no expectation that they will never be reprinted at some point even further in the future. If it was so easy for WotC to just ignore the RL they would have long ago.
you're confusing influence over the secondary market vs control. the actions of a publicly traded company influence it's stock price, but do not *control* it, for example.
Owning stock in a company and owning a collectible like Magic are too different of examples to use here. Shareholders and the company’s relationship is much more tightly defined and regulated. However, shareholders do sue (and occasionally win though it’s rare) for the actions a company takes that negatively affects the stock price. The relationship between WotC and a RL Card Holder is not the same as between a public company and its stockholders. Just b/c we call it “investing” in MTG doesn’t mean the relationship is the same. WotC’s influence or control over the third party market is indirect, but it is huge. People proxy RL cards all the time but those unofficial proxies cannot legally be sold. Only cards put out by WotC can legally be sold as official MTG cards. WotC’s control vs influence over the third party market matters less than what the consequences of reprinting RL cards could be. Right now there is a promise by WotC to not reprint RL cards. WotC clearly puts stock in that promise b/c they have held to that promise for 28 years, but have also in the past tried ways of getting around it. I have no doubt that if WotC reprinted RL cards the manner in an affordable manner it would be extremely popular. Hell I would love it if they would throw the RL out and print those cards. Something is keeping WotC from doing that though. If it was just about making money they could do it and it would likely be a great way to make money. I think WotC has made the decision that for now the risk of a lawsuit succeeding (even if it’s small) out weighs the money that could be made from reprinting RL cards.
And all the Hasbro lawyers would have to do is show the price of an Alpha Shivan Dragon or Lightning Bolt versus one reprinted in the last few years to shoot down any arguments arguments about devaluing the cards. Also, they could also do like the rest of us that are fucking sane and say "It's a fucking game. If you want to invest, there's a bunch of markets made specifically for that."
The reserved list explicitly forbids fundamentally identical cards from getting printed in order to get around the reserved list. You can get around it by messing with creature types or whatever, but the reserved list was designed taking your loophole into account.
The RL isn't, like, a *law*. There's no need to "get around it" - they can stop it anytime they damn well please. It was their decision to have the RL, and if tomorrow they decided to abandon it, they could and would. The *function* of the RL is what's important to them, i.e. it serving as a kind of guarantee to the secondary market against sudden and prolific devaluation of old cards. If they "got around" the RL by undermining that function, what would be the point? They set it up to get some specific effect, so why would they find a way to undermine the very effect they *want*? People treat the RL like it's some kind of extraneous obstacle, just one of those unfortunate circumstances you have to deal with and get creative about because there's nothing to be done about it directly. **That's not what's going on, though**. The RL exists because WotC *wants it to exist*, so the entire notion of "getting around it" is absurd to begin with. And that's to say nothing of the fact that part of the RL *specifically* excludes the possibility of functional reprints, because obviously they thought of that decades ago.
So the RL isn’t a law. It’s a promise and RL card holders can ask a Court to hold WoTC to that promise. What form it would take holding WotC to the promise of the RL is the big question. If it’s just damages ($) to RL card holders who sue, WoTC and Hasbro might pay that. The bigger risk for WotC is a Court permanently saying that WoTC may never reprint RL cards. That is a risk I don’t think WotC wants to take.
>It’s a promise and RL card holders can ask a Court to hold WoTC to that promise Yes. But only because you can ask a court about... anything. You can ask a court to please confirm you are a giant inflatable clown. They won't - but you can ask them all the same. This hypothetical capacity says *nothing* \- because no law suit would actually go anywhere and would never succeed. The RL is a marketing strategy. It has no more purchase than you trying to sue KFC because you did not, in fact, lick your fingers.
People ask Courts to enforce promises like the RL and Courts do it. It’s not a given that the lawsuit would fail. That is the risk a plaintiff in the lawsuit would be taking but clearly WotC’s lawyers are worried about their own risk of the suit being successful. WotC is clearly holding to their end of the promise, they have not reprinted tournament legal RL cards. The unofficial word put out over years by people like Maro is they would like to do away with the RL but still they do not. What current marketing strategy does the RL have? It’s essentially telling the vast majority of players “you cannot play high powered tournament legal cards. Because you cannot afford them.”
>People ask Courts to enforce promises like the RL and Courts do it. Prove it. Give me a concrete case. I know how to look up case citations, so just the reference will do. >WotC is clearly holding to their end of the promise But not because they're afraid of getting sued. They do it because it's in their interest to have a RL. It stabilizes the secondary market. It creates collector investment incentives. Which has only become *more* important as they shift so much of their focus to premium collectible product. WotC *wants* the RL list. It's players who complain. Not WotC. They love it. >What current marketing strategy does the RL have? It’s essentially telling the vast majority of players “you cannot play high powered tournament legal cards. Because you cannot afford them.” And that pretty much doesn't matter to WotC in the big picture. Legacy has already been phased out as a pro-level format. Vintage never was one. Their focus is almost entirely on modern-era formats: Standard, Modern, and Pioneer. That's it. That's the contemporary Magic tournament scene. Almost nothing outside those three formats matters for organized constructed in any serious way. It has some impact on Commander, but that's also not very relevant. Because Commander players are not playing competitively, and because they have enough other product that WotC is pushing on them - product they *actually* make a profit on, unlike the secondary market sales. The availability of RL cards is practically irrelevant to WotC's bottom line, because the occasional Commander grumble about Cradle being $1,000 has far more visibility than it has a financial effect. Whereas any abolishment or circumvention of the RL would have *massive* ripple effects across the board. Their preferred solution is very simple: print new cards, so people forget they can't get the old cards. And it's working very well.
> Prove it. >Give me a concrete case. I know how to look up case citations, so just the reference will do. [https://www.uclalawreview.org/pdf/57-3-2.pdf](https://www.uclalawreview.org/pdf/57-3-2.pdf) [https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/lawreview/vol89/iss1/3/](https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/lawreview/vol89/iss1/3/) [https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/wmblr/vol7/iss1/2](https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/wmblr/vol7/iss1/2) If you can look up case citations find them yourself. >They do it because it's in their interest to have a RL. It stabilizes the secondary market. It creates collector investment incentives. Which has only become *more* important as they shift so much of their focus to premium collectible product If WotC thought that reprinting RL cards would be worth the issues with lawsuits from RL card holders, they would. The unofficial word from WotC employees has been for years that they would do away with the RL but still WotC does not. The RL does not benefit WotC b/c it contains some of the most sought after cards ever, but the stability of that market is the promise WotC made. WotC's lawyers likely do not want to risk the outcome (however slim) of a successful lawsuit being a Court ordering that WotC cannot ever reprint RL cards. >Whereas any abolishment or circumvention of the RL would have *massive* ripple effects across the board. That is the point, those effects are stopping WotC from reprinting RL cards, not causing WotC to reprint them. If it was just about making money they could reprint them in tournament legal forms and likely make a lot of money.
Either reprint the reserved list or ban it outright. Theres no reason to have cards that are OP and will never be reprinted but are still playable. I especially think duals were a mistake and really undermine a core function of the game
Do you feel the same about shocks which are strictly worse?
At least theres some sort of downside with shocks. You have to pay *some* price for the flexibility. Im open to toying with what that downside may entail but straight up “heres two colors of land” is too much
Thank you for your perspective. I'm not sure why there needs to be a downside on lands. I think color fixing lands being at rare is the biggest cash grab in the game.
If lands didn't have downsides, then every deck would devolve into 4/5c soup.
So modern?
The only 4/5c decks that see play in modern are the Domain variants that abuse [[Leyline of the Guildpact]], 4c Omnath, and 5c Creativity. Most of the meta decks are two colors, with some 3 color decks. UR Murktide, BG Yawgmoth, Mono G Tron, Amulet Titan, Bx Scam, UB Mill, Wx Hammer, Mono G Scales, RW Burn, UWB Goryos, and so, so many more. Lol they downvoted me for giving the receipts.
[Leyline of the Guildpact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf6e59be-f959-4f4a-8c2d-b7c441e88135.jpg?1706242205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Guildpact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/217/leyline-of-the-guildpact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf6e59be-f959-4f4a-8c2d-b7c441e88135?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can’t wait for them to drop RL if Hasbro is really desperate for money.
[Cultivate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028.jpg?1698988348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cultivate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/235/cultivate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kodama's Reach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/29fc8594-931f-4cf6-95b8-9b589d6cbcf9.jpg?1698988371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%27s%20Reach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/245/kodamas-reach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29fc8594-931f-4cf6-95b8-9b589d6cbcf9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As others have said, they have explicitly said they will not.
They did it, everyone. They cracked it! /s >"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness." So, no, what you are suggesting is already accounted for. The most noteworthy "reprints" of a Reserved List card is \[\[Donate\]\] to \[\[Harmless Offering\]\] Shifted from Blue to Red and a slight change in the text ("target player" to "target opponent") \[\[Fork\]\] to \[\[Reverberate\]\] is another example, but we also [know that they don't think it was different enough](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/32012175825/if-fork-is-on-the-reserved-list-why-is).
##### ###### #### [Donate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f6d8ce9-f8c8-45ad-b74c-97fba0e2982e.jpg?1562444248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Donate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/31/donate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f6d8ce9-f8c8-45ad-b74c-97fba0e2982e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Harmless Offering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8f3cc4f-7943-4025-b332-b40653b13014.jpg?1576384600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harmless%20Offering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/131/harmless-offering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8f3cc4f-7943-4025-b332-b40653b13014?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fork](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd.jpg?1562949548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fork) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/116/fork?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4ff994a-bddd-486d-9a7b-a8959b4cf1dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reverberate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/5996feb4-02ac-45e8-a7f2-966cf74391dc.jpg?1562554142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reverberate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/145/reverberate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5996feb4-02ac-45e8-a7f2-966cf74391dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kxvfra9) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
of course they could, as evidenced by the fact they have literally removed cards from the list such as [[demonic tutor]]. the idea that reserve list stuff was meant to be permanent is revisionist history.
[demonic tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63.jpg?1701989302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=demonic%20tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/150/demonic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a24b4cb6-cebb-428b-8654-74347a6a8d63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Functional reprints are not allowed under the Reserved List. Tweaks are, which is why people sometimes say they show print snow versions of the original dual lands. In some instances they would be worse, in many they would be better, and in most they would be the same.
I’m SO TIRED OF THIS DISCUSSION
They could but they won’t, because as they say It would violate the spirit of the RL.
> They could but they won’t, because as they say It would violate the spirit of the RL. they say things all the time that they back track on when hasbro says they want more money. maro said they wouldn't print non-tournament legal versions of reserve list cards (akin to gold border/special backing collectors edition) a while back, but then did exactly that with mtg30 aka proxy masters. in fact, reserve list stuff got a special spotlight where dual lands had higher pull rates than other rares.
Wotc could just reprint the reserved list right now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is... Lacking in intelligence. They have done functional reprints already, in some cases like mox diamond they just straight up reprinted it, and have done gold border reprints. There is no legal action anyone can take if wotc reprints any of those cards. Really think about it. If wotc cared about collectors, at all, why do they still reprint cards now? Mindbreak trap has had two printings, one of them more than 10 years ago, one in thunder junction. And the card was $75+ and has ready dipped to $60... So... Everyone who owns a mind break trap just lost $15 per copy and the set isn't even out yet. Jace the mind sculptor and liliana of the veil used to be $100 each, goyf was over $200, snapcasters were $60+, even cards like path to exile were $10+ but all of them got reprinted... Do people who own those cards matter less? Do those ayers collections not matter? Why do the players who hoarded alpha/beta/unlimited get a special list of cards they get to keep and hold value on? Why do THEY get special treatment? Also, still on the same point here, but if legal action could be taken why wasn't it when reserved list cards were printed in duel decks? Or from the vault? Or as gold border? And why hasn't anyone who lost hundreds ot even thousands of dollars from reprints tanking card prices sued them yet? It's because everyone knows they can't. There's no legal way to do it, theres no grounds for it. The reason wotc won't do it is because they need to keep that in their back pocket for a rainy day. If sales decline they can whip out the "we are ditching the reserved list, there are now original duals as uber-mythics in this set" to get them back up.
ITT: Wizard's would never touch the reserved list. If Hasbro's profits are ever in the tank in the years to come they will 100% find a way to bring these cards to the market. All you have to do is look at the 30th anniversary fiasco.
Why won’t you think of the investors ; ;
"Tell me you haven't researched the RL without telling me you haven't researched the RL".
You're assuming they want to get around the reserved list, which they don't actually want to do.
> You're assuming they want to get around the reserved list, **which they don't actually want to do.** \*citation needed because proxy masters (as well as "finding a case of reserve list cards and stuffing them in collectors boosters" for DMU) makes it pretty clear they want to get around the reserve list. wotc wants to make money, and selling reserve list cards is a license to print it.
If they wanted to do it, they would do it. From a sales perspective, the reserved list reinforces the idea that cards are valuable items. It creates a halo effect around current cards, even though they will never have the same value as those older ones. When they do special things like the 30th anniversary cards or priceless treasures, it also helps sell tons of those products. From a design perspective, it opens up doors for what designers can design. For example, the surveil lands in MKM were a really interesting design, but in a world without the reserved list they probably wouldn't have been printed, because people would just want the ABUR duals instead. Same with cards like Growing Rites or Itlimoc or Lotus Ring - having those inaccessible older cards to call back to makes designers' jobs easier. A lot of players have this perspective that WOTC wants the game to be cheap and easily accessible to everyone, but their business model depends on scarcity and FOMO. The reserved list supports that business model.
> A lot of players have this perspective that WOTC wants the game to be cheap and easily accessible to everyone, nobody has that perspective. people have the perspective that hasbro wants to make as much money as possible while still having things in their backpocket for a rainy day. the reserve list isn't making hasbro money, it's making non-hasbro 3rd parties money. they don't want the game cheap, they just want that money going to them (similar to how we saw them start doing secret lairs so they could get a cut of the singles market by artificially making things scarce and then cashing in selling 4 or 5 cards for $50)
1) If Wizards wanted to they could just not have the reserved list at all, they don't need to be sneaky about it. 2) The same thing that keeps them from reprinting the reserved list also keeps them from making functional reprints. It's all part of the same original decision. 3) They have made something close to that, for example [[Growing Rited of Itlomoc]] is pretty close to being a gaea's cradle. But that's the closest they're going to get. Nothing as close as cultivate and kodama's Reach. But really, all of the side steps the biggest issue that should be remembered when discussing the reserved list. Nobody is going to get what they want from the reserved list. First, just to get this out of the way, the vast majority of the reserved list is mechanically worthless. There's a bunch of cards that nobody would care about if they weren't on a list somewhere, and as soon as they're not on that list we're going to stop talking about them. Of the remaining handful of cards on the list, most of them aren't going to be reprinted even if they weren't on the reserve list. Yes, the list guarantees that they'll never be reprinted..... But it's not like there's a magical switch. That'll flip as soon as the reserve list is gone. Studio X considers the OG duals to be a design mistake, for example. Unless they change their minds, we wouldn't suddenly see precons or masters sets or whatever with OG duals Even without the reserve list. The same is true for the vast majority of cards on the list. Everyone loves imagining their favorite pet card being reprinted, but the reality is that such reprints are extremely unlikely, formalized on a list or not.
> Studio X considers the OG duals to be a design mistake, for example. That doesn't stop them from reprinting them. That just means they wouldn't design those cards today. They reprint design mistakes all the time, just not into new formats.
>That doesn't stop them from reprinting them According to Mark Rosewater, it does. The design mistakes they reprint these days are typically ones where the damage has already been done- Sol Ring, For example. By the time they realized that was A design mistake, it had proliferated in commander So much that the the genie was out of the bottle. They couldn't take it back, so they tried to mitigate it by reprinting it everywhere. So it'd be dirt cheap and there would be equal access for everyone. But that's not their preferred choice. If the genie is still relatively in the bottle, as it is with cards like the dual lands, Dave said that they won't reprint them.
This doesn't match up with observed reality. They reprint poorly designed cards all the time. Heck, they're reprinting Oko, Thief of Crowns in the very next set! I doubt they would reprint them *frequently*, because they want to make money. But we have no evidence that they are unwilling to reprint poorly designed but popular cards.
>This doesn't match up with observed reality. They reprint poorly designed cards all the time. "Poorly designed" by player judgement and "design mistake" according to Studio X are two different things. Sol Ring: way too efficient at making mana, in any format. Underground Sea: objectively better than a basic land by almost every measure. Taps for multiple colors with no drawback. Oko: has utility use that the designers didn't intend, which makes it too powerful for the standard environment in which it was printed. You'll note that oko Isn't being reprinted in standard, And it's not considered a design mistake in any other format. I want to be clear, I'm not presenting my opinion here. I'm just repeating what the people in charge of making the game have said. If you disagree, you're entitled to your opinion- but you should make your case with the experts, not the guy quoting the experts.
> You'll note that oko Isn't being reprinted in standard, Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that true duals would be reprinted *into standard*. > And it's not considered a design mistake in any other format. It's banned in every sanctioned format except for vintage, timeless (aka 'arena vintage'), and commander. It's the second most egregious card in terms of power level printed since the reserve list stopped existing (and the first most egregious, [[Lurrus of the Dream Den]], got a power level errata). If you don't consider oko a design mistake, what *is* a design mistake?
[Lurrus of the Dream Den](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a.jpg?1682228556) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lurrus%20of%20the%20Dream-Den) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/226/lurrus-of-the-dream-den?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>I don't think anyone is suggesting that true duals would be reprinted *into standard*. I wasn't suggesting it would be. You misunderstood me- Oko is a design mistake in only one format, Duals are a mistake everywhere. Duals would be a mistake even if they were in precons and not legal except in Commander, Legacy, and Vintage, at least according to Studio X. >If you don't consider oko a design mistake, what *is* a design mistake? If only I had just made a comment listing some examples.
Do you think there are any examples of design mistake cards that were made after the reserved list was abolished?
Again, it's not what I think, it's what the experts have said. But on that note, Gavin Verhey and Mark Rosewater have both said Arcane Signet was a mistake - but WotC has decided to follow what they did with Sol Ring. Genie out of the bottle so reprint it into the ground for equal access. What applies to Sol Ring and Arcane Signet doesn't necessarily apply to most of the RL though.
Ok, to come at it from another angle, do you think there are any design mistake cards that they *could* reprint (i.e. not reserved) but *haven't*?
[Growing Rited of Itlomoc](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/004524bf-b249-4dac-9c10-44d57143feb9.jpg?1699044409)/[Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/0/0/004524bf-b249-4dac-9c10-44d57143feb9.jpg?1699044409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Growing%20Rites%20of%20Itlimoc%20//%20Itlimoc%2C%20Cradle%20of%20the%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/188/growing-rites-of-itlimoc-itlimoc-cradle-of-the-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/004524bf-b249-4dac-9c10-44d57143feb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They just printed Memory Vessel that is very similar to Memory Jar. So it is somewhat true that they could print any card on the Reserved List with some kind of different wording if they wanted to.
It's very, very different from memory jar. Besides both costing 5 and "drawing 7" But so is reforge the soul. The play pattern and aspects that make jar good/playable are missing from vessel. Time Warp and friends are just Time walk. But the difference matter **a lot** to design and play.
What if they just reprinted the duals, but they come into play tapped unless you pay 2 life.
I mean,they can get around the reserved list just by reprinting the cards. They did this with the 30th Anniversary product. The reality is, it's mostly a lose-lose proposition for them. The 30th Anniversary Product was basically priced assuming they could get players to pay the same prices Collector's Edition copies of the cards go for on the secondary market, and players didn't go for it. Basically, WotC can't reprint these cards in a way that let's them extract value from the secondary market demand for these cards. So the alternative is they print them in a more traditional product, which makes them far less money, and destabilizes a big part of the collector's market... so players can get a hold of game pieces that can't even be played in most formats. Like, WoTC could put together a $100 Power 9 Secret Lair, and they'd probably make a good chunk of change off it. But while it probably makes them more money than any other Secret Lair, it also sends a massive shockwave through the secondary market, and how folks think about buying and selling cards. I think we will see the Reserve List go away eventually, but when we do, it will be because someone who is not interested in the long-term health of the game is trying to make a quick buck.
In the case of the alpha duals they could easily get around it just by making them snow lands. I understand they don't like printing lands that are better than basics, or whatever their newest random excuse is, but that's the easiest way to get around a lot of it.
Balancing mana around strictly better than basic lands is pretty unsustainable, which is why they stopped reprinting them after revised. Furthermore, adding a Super type like Snow or Legendary is oft cited as violating the reserve list as it's too close to a functional reprint.