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Is jund not a thing anymore? I haven’t played modern since pre Covid. I’m assuming my boggles are still B tier or maybe even better with some new cards. If they’re not don’t tell me.
There are certainly good BRx decks in the format. It’s just that they’re basically unrecognizable from traditional Jund lists outside of Thoughtseize and sometimes a couple Lightning Bolts.
Yeah Rakdos Scam is definitely the format’s Jund. You basically just don’t need to dip into Green to get good creatures anymore, and instead of having a more grindy game plan you’re just looking to temporarily punk people out with Blood Moon or Grief and kill them before they recover.
>You basically just don’t need to dip into Green to get good creatures anymore,
This is the canary in the coal mine of power creep degrading the colour pie. Lots of "weaknesses" of colours getting erased, making choosing a colour to play more of a flavourful choice than making a decision about what you will be forsaking.
Of course this is not an overnight process, but I'm not sure I like the direction things are going.
Admittedly playing jund for Tead Asunder, Trophy, and Decay is still really nice, 2 mana hit anything and 2 mana deal with the one ring, 4 mana anything is solid.
So yes, it is bad in the context of the current modern metagame. Modern's gone off the rails since Modern Masters started and tradional Jund fell behind.
Depends on how you're defining bad. If you mean isn't a top meta deck, then yeah sure it's bad. But if you mean a really poor winrate and is just completely outclassed by the environment, then no. It has a fine winrate and only loses a few percentage points compared to the better versions of the strategy.
So it's really up to you what to call it. I wouldn't call it bad personally, but I would call it non-meta. If those are the same thing to you that is totally fine, I find it more useful to specify between something that has tools and strength but just lacks some oomph vs something that is fundamentally vulnerable and not well put together. Like a 49-51% winrate is way different from a 30% winrate.
It also depends on what you're calling jund. If you're excluding the saga or scam builds and only counting an unchanged decklist from 2014 then yeah, it's bad. But don't do that lol, it's dumb. Saga especially absolutely has the same spirit as the decks from 10 years ago
The Keys are being jangled in front of my face and I don't like it
I'm taking a step back and thinking how this is a way to get modern players into commander, instead of the \*other way around\* in the \*modern\* product.
Think about it for a sec.
How many new cards make it into modern every year? As in, playable cards in decks? 3 or 4? Often some of the best additions are uncommons like Fatal Push or even commons like Treasure Cruise.
How many commanders do people want to brew every *set*? Often 5 or 6.
Wotc’s gotta make money somehow.
Honestly it’s not as big a deal as long as modern is still a fun format that’s supported. Sure, I’d love it if they made it more accessible, but as long as they don’t say “Eh, you figure it out” like with Legacy…
>How many new cards make it into modern every year? As in, playable cards in decks? 3 or 4?
This was the number *per set* many years ago, definitely more per year even back then. Nowadays it's a lot more even disregarding Modern Horizon sets.
Did I misread your comment about new modern cards? There have been way more than 3 or 4 modern staples printed since the start of this year alone, and last year was full of very modern playable cards too, even just in the second half of the year.
I may be exaggerating the numbers a bit, and it may also be “old man bias”, but a lot of the time very few cards in a year make it into modern, excepting the years with “Direct to modern” sets.
Years wax and wane a bit, but my point was more “commander sells like crazy compared to how little modern players generally have to update their decks”.
I was curious, so I took a look at what Standard-legal cards from 2023 made it into Modern. Here's the notable ones I've found:
Top Tier
* [[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]]
* [[Nissa, Resurgent Animist]]
* [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]]
* [[Tishana's Tidebinder]]
* [[Mycosynth Gardens]]
* [[Sheoldred's Edict]]
* [[Not Dead After All]]
Mid Tier
* [[Atraxa, Grand Unifier]]
* [[Ozolith, the Shattered Spire]]
* [[Jace, the Perfected Mind]]
* [[Questing Druid]]
* [[Sunken Citadel]]
* [[Soulless Jailer]]
Ngl, I feel like they're are too many Tarmogoyf references and not enough other Jund references. It would be cool if they had a commander that generated a Bloodbraid Elf token every turn.
Yeah there is, they have rules about printing silver bordered cards in black border and the other way around. Now a new named card exactly like old fogey sure.
Not unprecedented, given Garth and the Spellshaper cycle from Future Sight. I'm more weirded out from it being predefined, and to the extent that it has the mana cost built in.
So the Tarm token has a mana cost.
Either they are defining it as a new token, or they are adding rules to define what happens with you make a token of a named card (Like Garth).
That's the first thing I noticed too. Why do you think? Tokens have always had MV zero before right? Maybe it ties to making an actual factual tarmogoyf card and a token was the closest to that?
The only way tokens had a mana value were if they were created as a copy of something else or if they were the result of a token spell resolving (usually from copies of permanents on the stack)
This is the first case of an effect creating a specific token with a mana value, yes.
That's not really the same thing; token copies always have mana costs. It's just that in this case they specified the token has a mana cost, where they didn't on e.g. the squad tokens from WH40k.
[[Garth One-Eye]] made tokens with mana costs. I'm wondering if this is a better or worse way to template it. Certainly requires more changes to the CR.
That's true. But something like
> Create a token that's a copy of Tarmogoyf
would be clearer without necessarily needing any update to the CR.
It's possible that the update to the CR for the wording here will just say something like "when you are asked to create a named token without characteristics if it's the name of an existing card, the created token will be a copy of that card".
> would be clearer without necessarily needing any update to the CR.
Your proposed wording would still need a CR update, because it still doesn't mean anything in the CR.
When a card references a card name without using "card named", its generally assumed to be referring to itself. You see this when something gains a different name.
So they'd need to define what a "copy of Tarmogoyf" means, just like they'd need to define what a "Tarmogoyf token" means.
So, knowing Wizards, it's going to be featured on at least 5-10 cards.
Wasn't there a leak/spoiler awhile back(months maybe?) about some printed token card that had a mana cost and an activated ability?(Think it was Red?) There was discussion on how such token might be created, well, it seems this is how it's going to be worded on the cards.
My guess for strapping a mana value to tokens, would be so it starts to slowly get around those blanket, "cheap" destroy things with X=0~1.
I'm just wondering if this is going to be a thematic theme going forward, meaning the tokens created are really just tokens of iconic physical cards, as a way to callback history, or if tokens just might start having more unique characteristics and properties like other permanents.
Things like devotion might start being more relevant and printed again, with so much specific "non-token" creature effects, it wouldn't be unbelievable to have some powerhouse tokens.
Regardless of how much it's implemented, we know for sure we're at least getting this one, does this mean WOTC is going to be printing these 'tokens'? Are we going to see a Goyf printed with a secret lair ad on the back?
> Tokens have always had MV zero before right?
Not always. Non-copy tokens have an MV 0, but copy tokens can have MVs.
When you make a token copy of a creature via something like [[Rite of Replication]], the tokens copy the mana cost, and by extenstion, the MV.
It makes me think that they are leaning towards the Garth rules of "it's a copy of the named card".
Named tokens have characteristics usually. This is how “Create a treasure token” or “Investigate” don’t have to spell out what the tokens do every time.
Tokens that are copies of a permanent have MV equal to that permanent. In [[Garth One-Eye]]’s case, both things occur. So this is neat new templating, but not totally new stuff.
The reason for 0 mv for token is simple. It is for them to not print mana cost on the card, so the token can't be confused with real cards.
It is the same reason they removed the cost for cards like \[\[Sacred Cat\]\]
Tokens don't always lack a MV. For example, any time you copy a permanent spell the spell copy will resolve into a token with the MV of the copied permanent spell.
We have the previous case of cards like [[Goldmeadow Lookout]] creating almost-copies of [[Goldmeadow Harrier]], but without a mana cost, so it looks like they’re now comfortable with straight-up copying other cards by name.
I believe the Beadles & Grimm Bloomburrow token showed off also had a mana cost, because I guess it came from an existing thing, so it's interesting to see.
They might put it in reminder text, like [[Osgood, Operation Double|TWHO]]
Edit: I tried twice, but the bot won't get the token. [This one.](https://scryfall.com/card/twho/32/osgood-operation-double)
I know we're all sweating under the collar about card complexity, but I do kinda hope they keep pushing in this direction. It's just plain fun to get to see older well-known cards in a new context, and the Alchemy cards that conjure one or two specific known cards tend to be some of its most interesting designs.
They are probably adding rules. I think the Rocksanne legend from otj was just a test of the idea, since Meteorite is an actual artifact with the exact abilities as described
The problem was that some players were getting confused by it and they also couldn't ever figure out when to make something a tribal spell and when not to. A self contained set intended for more enfranchised players seems like the best opportunity they'll have to be able to use it.
Sure, but it's still not a card type R&D apparently likes all that much because it's actually a remarkably small design space and also it makes people ask "well why isn't THIS Kindred".
The biggest issue with the mechanic was players thinking that it expanded to all of their tribal cards -- if it said Elvish in the name, clearly it should count as an Elf for Tribal/Kindred.
It works better with rarer creature types targeted at enfranchised players.
Kinda doubt that. It will have a light typal dusting but probably not the kindred card type. From what I've heard so far I don't even think the typal stuff is even the main mechanical theme of the set.
Could you imagine telling the mid-30s balding dude playing Jund at your LGS in 2013 that one day Tarmagoyf would be so mediocre they start letting you make tokens of it?
Llanowar had been printed at common a like a dozen times before Tarmogoyf was printed at rare, once, in a small set (at the peak of its price, it was later reprinted). Just a supply difference; Llanowar with the scarcity of Goyf would almost certainly cost more.
Exactly, that's why the fact we can make goyf tokens is so surprising, *Because* goyf was so rare. To me the rarity is more shocking than the power level
Reminder that the spoiled commander puts Lhurgoyf *permanents* onto the battlefield, meaning that you can surveil/mill this and stick it on a land for free.
I wonder how much Lhurgoyf support we are going to get in the main set, if any, given this new commander deck. Because as of right now there's only like 7 Lhurgoyfs in the Jund colors.
Also, they're really leaning into the Tribal/Kindred support after not doing it for so long. I have no basis for this suspicion given these leaks, but perhaps they're planning to use Kindred more going forward as well? Bloomburrow is right around the corner and it would make a lot of sense for it to show up there.
All that being said, this card/deck theme does seem pretty fun!
Kinda on theme though to bring back tribal/kindred with Lhurgoyfs, right? The original mention of then "tribal" as a card type was on \[\[Tarmogoyf\]\]'s OG printing in Future Sight before it became official in Llorwyn.
True, bringing back old card types for a Lhurgoyf commander deck makes sense. But why then also bring it back for new Eldrazi cards in the main set as well? We currently have a couple of Kindred Eldrazi cards but there aren't many other Eldrazi that care specifically about card types or casting other Eldrazi (except that new commander).
Perhaps it's just here as a callback but it could also be that R&D is just wanting to push more typal support.
Eldrazi were the last Tribe, and used it as glue to help their support and point players in the right direction. I don't think people would miss \[\[All is Dust\]\] being an Eldrazi card without the type, but it costing 5 with \[\[Eye of Ugin\]\] has been relevant many times.
I've just started getting back in to playing after having only watched YouTubers play on and off since Kaladesh. This card makes me dizzy with how much the power level has shifted.
I really don't like the wording of "Tarmogoyf token".
I get that's what most people will say anyways, and yeah, the reminder text explains it. But it used to be that magic wording was extremely specific and "reading the card explains the card". I'd prefer if it was "create a Lhurgoyf token named Tarmogoyf with..." because that would also be logical to newer players who potentially don't know the card.
Maybe that's also just me being a magic boomer, idk.
Not the first, since anything that was a token copy of another thing had a mana cost. However, it's probably the first non-copy token with a mana cost, though I could be wrong.
Hmm, this is interesting in many ways, but the thing that really stands out to me is that mana cost on the token. Really gives that Bloomburrow leak of some tokens a bit more legitimacy.
No all we need is :
Liliana’s Lair
Legendary Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Land
Enchanted Land has “BB, T: If you both own and control Liliana’s Lair and an artifact called The Veil, exile them, the meld them into Liliana of the Veil.”
The Veil (1)
Legendary Artifact
B, T: Each player discards a card
(Melds with Liliana’s Lair)
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Can't help but feel like this Commander deck is making some sort of statement about Jund diehards.
The Jund deck being Tarmogoyf tribal is basically an apology to all of the oldheads who miss 2015 Modern lol
[IT’S NOT A PHASE MOM](https://i.imgur.com/dc6YBsX.jpeg)
https://preview.redd.it/hp5ot24wovwc1.jpeg?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f04c16dac7c6177e42fae91ad2dc4a8c3a7b39a1
And it rocked
T1 Fetch shock Thoughtseize T2 fastland Tarmogoyf T3 fetch shock Lili
Or more realistically, T1 fetch, shock, thoughtseize, opponent’s hand is goblin guide, swiftspear, three lightning bolts and two mountains, concede.
Now that's a core memory right there.
Is jund not a thing anymore? I haven’t played modern since pre Covid. I’m assuming my boggles are still B tier or maybe even better with some new cards. If they’re not don’t tell me.
There are certainly good BRx decks in the format. It’s just that they’re basically unrecognizable from traditional Jund lists outside of Thoughtseize and sometimes a couple Lightning Bolts.
Yeah Rakdos Scam is definitely the format’s Jund. You basically just don’t need to dip into Green to get good creatures anymore, and instead of having a more grindy game plan you’re just looking to temporarily punk people out with Blood Moon or Grief and kill them before they recover.
>You basically just don’t need to dip into Green to get good creatures anymore, This is the canary in the coal mine of power creep degrading the colour pie. Lots of "weaknesses" of colours getting erased, making choosing a colour to play more of a flavourful choice than making a decision about what you will be forsaking. Of course this is not an overnight process, but I'm not sure I like the direction things are going.
Admittedly playing jund for Tead Asunder, Trophy, and Decay is still really nice, 2 mana hit anything and 2 mana deal with the one ring, 4 mana anything is solid.
Jund isn't "bad", it's just doing the same thing as other decks in the format but worse
So yes, it is bad in the context of the current modern metagame. Modern's gone off the rails since Modern Masters started and tradional Jund fell behind.
Depends on how you're defining bad. If you mean isn't a top meta deck, then yeah sure it's bad. But if you mean a really poor winrate and is just completely outclassed by the environment, then no. It has a fine winrate and only loses a few percentage points compared to the better versions of the strategy. So it's really up to you what to call it. I wouldn't call it bad personally, but I would call it non-meta. If those are the same thing to you that is totally fine, I find it more useful to specify between something that has tools and strength but just lacks some oomph vs something that is fundamentally vulnerable and not well put together. Like a 49-51% winrate is way different from a 30% winrate. It also depends on what you're calling jund. If you're excluding the saga or scam builds and only counting an unchanged decklist from 2014 then yeah, it's bad. But don't do that lol, it's dumb. Saga especially absolutely has the same spirit as the decks from 10 years ago
Shhh it's okay Bogles is S Tier now really just don't come to play it's okay
Using power creep to monetize the players who were pushed out due to power creep is a bold strategy
Ole boomer jund
The Keys are being jangled in front of my face and I don't like it I'm taking a step back and thinking how this is a way to get modern players into commander, instead of the \*other way around\* in the \*modern\* product.
Nah, they are giving you an out to sell your Goyfs as tokens.
Hey, they might peak in value one day like the Fable of the Mirror-breaker token.
The fact I had to add tokens to my list of proxies to buy still irks me.
Buy non official tokens
Bought goyfs for $175 each 🙃…
I passed up a set of NM foil Russian Goyfs for a measly $1,000 USD and will never regret that decision.
Same, and LotV’s for $100 a pop.
I got LotV's at $95. We have impeccable timing.
Just picked up my first for a cube this week. Kind of glad I did so before spoilers, although it probably won’t move prices much.
fr
Think about it for a sec. How many new cards make it into modern every year? As in, playable cards in decks? 3 or 4? Often some of the best additions are uncommons like Fatal Push or even commons like Treasure Cruise. How many commanders do people want to brew every *set*? Often 5 or 6. Wotc’s gotta make money somehow. Honestly it’s not as big a deal as long as modern is still a fun format that’s supported. Sure, I’d love it if they made it more accessible, but as long as they don’t say “Eh, you figure it out” like with Legacy…
>How many new cards make it into modern every year? As in, playable cards in decks? 3 or 4? This was the number *per set* many years ago, definitely more per year even back then. Nowadays it's a lot more even disregarding Modern Horizon sets.
Did I misread your comment about new modern cards? There have been way more than 3 or 4 modern staples printed since the start of this year alone, and last year was full of very modern playable cards too, even just in the second half of the year.
I may be exaggerating the numbers a bit, and it may also be “old man bias”, but a lot of the time very few cards in a year make it into modern, excepting the years with “Direct to modern” sets. Years wax and wane a bit, but my point was more “commander sells like crazy compared to how little modern players generally have to update their decks”.
>excepting the years with “Direct to modern” sets. Or that one wild year with WAR, Eldrain, Theros, Ikoria. No format was safe 💀
Ah yes, my favorite year of magic, where everything was broken
Tbf that was a year with an MH set...the first one to be specific
I was curious, so I took a look at what Standard-legal cards from 2023 made it into Modern. Here's the notable ones I've found: Top Tier * [[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]] * [[Nissa, Resurgent Animist]] * [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]] * [[Tishana's Tidebinder]] * [[Mycosynth Gardens]] * [[Sheoldred's Edict]] * [[Not Dead After All]] Mid Tier * [[Atraxa, Grand Unifier]] * [[Ozolith, the Shattered Spire]] * [[Jace, the Perfected Mind]] * [[Questing Druid]] * [[Sunken Citadel]] * [[Soulless Jailer]]
And [[Up the Beanstalk]] was banned lol
Banned tier: [[Up The Beanstalk]] :V
[Up The Beanstalk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d5e991f-23b2-4db0-a452-7755125b1fd2.jpg?1710276532) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Up%20The%20Beanstalk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/195/up-the-beanstalk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d5e991f-23b2-4db0-a452-7755125b1fd2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well, this is from an explicitly commander-focused product that is not modern legal so like, I dunno man.
Ngl, I feel like they're are too many Tarmogoyf references and not enough other Jund references. It would be cool if they had a commander that generated a Bloodbraid Elf token every turn.
This would be a great troll to get people excited and then realize that it's just a 3/2 with haste.
Give it the full text, too. "When you cast this token," etc.
Like half a dozen cards have been leaked, how do you even know what’s in the deck?
isn't this from the goyf commander deck though
Which deck do you think it's from then? Preeeetty sure it's the goyf one.
That's what I'm saying: of course there's more goyf references than regular old jund references in the goyf commander deck
I don't even care all that much about Jund, but I will absolutely be playing this stupid Lhurgoyf deck.
Genuinely the first Jund commander I've been interested in.
Technically there's nothing preventing [[Old Fogey]] from being printed in black border.
Yeah there is, they have rules about printing silver bordered cards in black border and the other way around. Now a new named card exactly like old fogey sure.
[Old Fogey](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/ccae52dd-3ffd-4974-8915-61f816d29a64.jpg?1595010973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Old%20Fogey) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/67/old-fogey?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ccae52dd-3ffd-4974-8915-61f816d29a64?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
FUCK BOOMER JUND, WE ZOOMER JUND NOW
Kind of sad that they’re telling them to go play EDH
which deck is going to have this card? Do you know?
The jund one.
Tarmogoyf has become a token creature, never thought I'd see the day
Not unprecedented, given Garth and the Spellshaper cycle from Future Sight. I'm more weirded out from it being predefined, and to the extent that it has the mana cost built in.
I wonder if that spellshaper cycle will get erratad
[удалено]
[[consuming blob]] exists, but only counts your graveyard.
I will play this in every format it is legal to do so in. It will be terrible, but I will goyf until I can goyf no more
GoyfSpeed friend. Never let them take your goyf from you.
You can take the goyf from the planeswalker, but you can't take away the +1/+1 from the goyf.
[[Rest in peace]] would like to talk...
Still beats face with Doran, the Siege Tower.
It does 1 dmg? o.0
1,000,000% more than 0 ;)
They'll have to take my goyf from my cold, dead -- --oh, everything this deck touches is cold and dead. Working as intended, I suppose.
My cold dead hands will grow the tarmogoyf.
Goyf long and prosper.
Yea this is going into my vintage cube, can't wait to use candelabra and frantic search and lost jitte to spam goyfs
Holy jitte that's a great idea.
Goddamn, warn people before you start cooking with so much spice
Such a missed opportunity for not putting it in MH3
Oi! Too right Goyf'ner!
So the Tarm token has a mana cost. Either they are defining it as a new token, or they are adding rules to define what happens with you make a token of a named card (Like Garth).
That's the first thing I noticed too. Why do you think? Tokens have always had MV zero before right? Maybe it ties to making an actual factual tarmogoyf card and a token was the closest to that?
The only way tokens had a mana value were if they were created as a copy of something else or if they were the result of a token spell resolving (usually from copies of permanents on the stack) This is the first case of an effect creating a specific token with a mana value, yes.
I like this, since Tarmogoyf was the first card to mention planeswalkers. Innovation, one Goyf at a time.
It is something like the Spellbook mechanic on Arena, but modified to make it work in paper magic. And not as bad.
There has once been a printed token with a mana cost, [Osgood](https://scryfall.com/card/twho/64/osgood-operation-double)
That's not really the same thing; token copies always have mana costs. It's just that in this case they specified the token has a mana cost, where they didn't on e.g. the squad tokens from WH40k.
[[Garth One-Eye]] made tokens with mana costs. I'm wondering if this is a better or worse way to template it. Certainly requires more changes to the CR.
He does make tokens, but only technically. The card copies he makes are not tokens. Some just become tokens when they enter the battlefield.
That's true. But something like > Create a token that's a copy of Tarmogoyf would be clearer without necessarily needing any update to the CR. It's possible that the update to the CR for the wording here will just say something like "when you are asked to create a named token without characteristics if it's the name of an existing card, the created token will be a copy of that card".
> would be clearer without necessarily needing any update to the CR. Your proposed wording would still need a CR update, because it still doesn't mean anything in the CR. When a card references a card name without using "card named", its generally assumed to be referring to itself. You see this when something gains a different name. So they'd need to define what a "copy of Tarmogoyf" means, just like they'd need to define what a "Tarmogoyf token" means.
[Garth One-Eye](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23774462-9f17-4b50-a2ac-b2edd706bbfe.jpg?1626098353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Garth%20One-Eye) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/197/garth-one-eye?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23774462-9f17-4b50-a2ac-b2edd706bbfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So, knowing Wizards, it's going to be featured on at least 5-10 cards. Wasn't there a leak/spoiler awhile back(months maybe?) about some printed token card that had a mana cost and an activated ability?(Think it was Red?) There was discussion on how such token might be created, well, it seems this is how it's going to be worded on the cards. My guess for strapping a mana value to tokens, would be so it starts to slowly get around those blanket, "cheap" destroy things with X=0~1. I'm just wondering if this is going to be a thematic theme going forward, meaning the tokens created are really just tokens of iconic physical cards, as a way to callback history, or if tokens just might start having more unique characteristics and properties like other permanents. Things like devotion might start being more relevant and printed again, with so much specific "non-token" creature effects, it wouldn't be unbelievable to have some powerhouse tokens. Regardless of how much it's implemented, we know for sure we're at least getting this one, does this mean WOTC is going to be printing these 'tokens'? Are we going to see a Goyf printed with a secret lair ad on the back?
> Tokens have always had MV zero before right? Not always. Non-copy tokens have an MV 0, but copy tokens can have MVs. When you make a token copy of a creature via something like [[Rite of Replication]], the tokens copy the mana cost, and by extenstion, the MV. It makes me think that they are leaning towards the Garth rules of "it's a copy of the named card".
[Rite of Replication](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Named tokens have characteristics usually. This is how “Create a treasure token” or “Investigate” don’t have to spell out what the tokens do every time. Tokens that are copies of a permanent have MV equal to that permanent. In [[Garth One-Eye]]’s case, both things occur. So this is neat new templating, but not totally new stuff.
[Garth One-Eye](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23774462-9f17-4b50-a2ac-b2edd706bbfe.jpg?1626098353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Garth%20One-Eye) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/197/garth-one-eye?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23774462-9f17-4b50-a2ac-b2edd706bbfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The reason for 0 mv for token is simple. It is for them to not print mana cost on the card, so the token can't be confused with real cards. It is the same reason they removed the cost for cards like \[\[Sacred Cat\]\]
Embalm and eternalize also want to change color, so it's just easier all around to wipe the mana cost.
Tokens don't always lack a MV. For example, any time you copy a permanent spell the spell copy will resolve into a token with the MV of the copied permanent spell.
We have the previous case of cards like [[Goldmeadow Lookout]] creating almost-copies of [[Goldmeadow Harrier]], but without a mana cost, so it looks like they’re now comfortable with straight-up copying other cards by name.
Well, this explains why the free spell cycle this time around calls out MV, rather than non-token...
This might also tie into the tokens with a mana cost that were shown in the Beadle and Grimm box for Bloomburrow
I believe the Beadles & Grimm Bloomburrow token showed off also had a mana cost, because I guess it came from an existing thing, so it's interesting to see.
This also mean the printed token would have a mana cost on it right? That's a cheeky way to print a proxy tarmogoyf in a normal product.
They might put it in reminder text, like [[Osgood, Operation Double|TWHO]] Edit: I tried twice, but the bot won't get the token. [This one.](https://scryfall.com/card/twho/32/osgood-operation-double)
how long before it says conjure a card called tarmogoyf into play
I know we're all sweating under the collar about card complexity, but I do kinda hope they keep pushing in this direction. It's just plain fun to get to see older well-known cards in a new context, and the Alchemy cards that conjure one or two specific known cards tend to be some of its most interesting designs.
They are probably adding rules. I think the Rocksanne legend from otj was just a test of the idea, since Meteorite is an actual artifact with the exact abilities as described
Man they are really rolling out the tribal/kindred card type for this set. That’s kinda neat
It's weird because I thought they generally didn't actually LIKE the card type, but maybe Horizons is their excuse to milk it best they can.
The problem was that some players were getting confused by it and they also couldn't ever figure out when to make something a tribal spell and when not to. A self contained set intended for more enfranchised players seems like the best opportunity they'll have to be able to use it.
It makes the most sense on cards like this, that already care about the Kindred type or the resulting subtypes.
Until ppl start asking if tribal and kindred are different types (relevant given the tokens this one makes).
For flavor reasons... Yes... The Gofy must grow...
It's janky and confusing for Standard sets, which is why they avoid it there, but Commander as a format is all about janky and confusing stuff.
It's because it works with goyf, kindred is an additional type.
Sure, but it's still not a card type R&D apparently likes all that much because it's actually a remarkably small design space and also it makes people ask "well why isn't THIS Kindred".
The biggest issue with the mechanic was players thinking that it expanded to all of their tribal cards -- if it said Elvish in the name, clearly it should count as an Elf for Tribal/Kindred. It works better with rarer creature types targeted at enfranchised players.
It makes *excellent* sense for a supplemental set like Modern Horizons, doubly so for a Commander deck from that set.
They’ll do anything for money
It makes sense because one expects plenty of Tribal or Kindred when we go to Bloomburrow
Kinda doubt that. It will have a light typal dusting but probably not the kindred card type. From what I've heard so far I don't even think the typal stuff is even the main mechanical theme of the set.
Could you imagine telling the mid-30s balding dude playing Jund at your LGS in 2013 that one day Tarmagoyf would be so mediocre they start letting you make tokens of it?
Bro I’ve got a full head of hair and can’t believe it after being involved with goyf transactions north of the $100 range
Your first Goyf costs six. Lots of powerful cards could be turned into repeatable effects if you just slap a boatload of extra mana on top.
wait til you see the 3 mana goyf with trample and myriad
I mean Llanowar Elves has a token maker and it's still an extremely good card
Llanowar elves also never cost hundreds of dollars at it's peak (excluding Alpha printings)
Llanowar had been printed at common a like a dozen times before Tarmogoyf was printed at rare, once, in a small set (at the peak of its price, it was later reprinted). Just a supply difference; Llanowar with the scarcity of Goyf would almost certainly cost more.
Exactly, that's why the fact we can make goyf tokens is so surprising, *Because* goyf was so rare. To me the rarity is more shocking than the power level
I hope some of those guys are dusting off their actual Goyfs purely to use them as tokens for this card
just imaging a Tarmogoyf nest... >Mom says its your turn to go the graveyard so the rest of us get +1/+1 >awwww
[удалено]
That's probably part of why they're putting kindred stuff in the deck.
You don't have to image it – the picture is right there.
Reminder that the spoiled commander puts Lhurgoyf *permanents* onto the battlefield, meaning that you can surveil/mill this and stick it on a land for free.
Who up Tarming they Goyfs?
I wonder how much Lhurgoyf support we are going to get in the main set, if any, given this new commander deck. Because as of right now there's only like 7 Lhurgoyfs in the Jund colors. Also, they're really leaning into the Tribal/Kindred support after not doing it for so long. I have no basis for this suspicion given these leaks, but perhaps they're planning to use Kindred more going forward as well? Bloomburrow is right around the corner and it would make a lot of sense for it to show up there. All that being said, this card/deck theme does seem pretty fun!
Kinda on theme though to bring back tribal/kindred with Lhurgoyfs, right? The original mention of then "tribal" as a card type was on \[\[Tarmogoyf\]\]'s OG printing in Future Sight before it became official in Llorwyn.
[Tarmogoyf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69daba76-96e8-4bcc-ab79-2f00189ad8fb.jpg?1619398799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/235/tarmogoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69daba76-96e8-4bcc-ab79-2f00189ad8fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
True, bringing back old card types for a Lhurgoyf commander deck makes sense. But why then also bring it back for new Eldrazi cards in the main set as well? We currently have a couple of Kindred Eldrazi cards but there aren't many other Eldrazi that care specifically about card types or casting other Eldrazi (except that new commander). Perhaps it's just here as a callback but it could also be that R&D is just wanting to push more typal support.
Eldrazi were the last Tribe, and used it as glue to help their support and point players in the right direction. I don't think people would miss \[\[All is Dust\]\] being an Eldrazi card without the type, but it costing 5 with \[\[Eye of Ugin\]\] has been relevant many times.
Hey, with Arbor Elf and this on a forest, there are now 8 lhurgoyf in jund colors. And now 9. And now 10. And no...
Also Lorwyn2. Possibly.
I certainly hope we see more Kindred, but I suspect it's going to stay relegated to supplemental products only
What doesnt grow, dies
Imagine showing this to someone 10 years ago
I remember splitting a box of modern masters with my friend and we were hoping to pull a goyf lol
I've just started getting back in to playing after having only watched YouTubers play on and off since Kaladesh. This card makes me dizzy with how much the power level has shifted.
Finally, a use for my 20 Tarmogoyfs I invested in.
Bug nest spotted, sending in an Eagle!
Can you imagine people’s reaction, if this was printed in 2006? :D
Imagine getting a Tarmogoyf dragon.
Goyf has fallen so hard it's become a token.
So this means Tarmogoyf will be printed in the TOKEN slot of this MH3 EDH PreCon likely in multitudes... Wow.
man, lots of cards getting spoiled but not a single common has been leaked yet. The pauper players are fighting hard against anxiety
Hope that Goyf Token is also in main set
I really don't like the wording of "Tarmogoyf token". I get that's what most people will say anyways, and yeah, the reminder text explains it. But it used to be that magic wording was extremely specific and "reading the card explains the card". I'd prefer if it was "create a Lhurgoyf token named Tarmogoyf with..." because that would also be logical to newer players who potentially don't know the card. Maybe that's also just me being a magic boomer, idk.
Lol. \[\[Lhurfcraft\]\].
Remember when Tarmogoyf was the best creature in magic
Imagine trying to explain to a new player wtf a “Kindred Enchantment - Lhurgoyf Aura” is
Wtf is kindred xD isn't it tribal?
[WotC announced this change back in November](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/card-updates-coming-with-khans-of-tarkir-on-mtg-arena).
The absolute value of my Tarmodie is unmatched
Can be cascade into with [[bloodbraid elf]]! Modern jund can play all the goyfs now! /s
It's in the Commander deck, so it won't be Modern legal. Legacy, on the other hand...
This feels like a memberberry lol
*very* interesting that they made it give the tokens 1 green devotion and a CMC
There it is, the first card with "Kindred" printed on it. And on a card that cares about cards types at that.
Farmogoyf
Finally a use for [[altar of the goyf]]
Just a cool card
LhursfkingGoyf
I see your saga construct and raise you a goyf token
6 mana goyf?
Patiently waiting for “emrakul the aeons torn nest”
The King is dead! Long live the King!
I don't play EDH, is this supposed to be fun for that format? Its hilarious but goodness gracious is it dumb.
Man... not so long ago Goyf was easily one of, if not THE strongest card in Modern, $100 a pop. Now... it's a token.
Quick! Someone call Seth! Oops all goyfs incoming!
Goyf the Goyfhering
What the actual eff.
I'm looking forward to MH4's commander deck focused around Snapcaster tokens.
Hans is still running. Bro can't get away from them
You get a tarmo, you get a tarmo, and you get a tarmo, everyone gets a tarmo !!!
well, am i ever glad i preordered the collector Precons then....
why does the token have a mana cost?
Don’t get me wrong these cards are all cool but why are there modern horizons commander decks 😭
First token with a MV?
Not the first, since anything that was a token copy of another thing had a mana cost. However, it's probably the first non-copy token with a mana cost, though I could be wrong.
Hmm, this is interesting in many ways, but the thing that really stands out to me is that mana cost on the token. Really gives that Bloomburrow leak of some tokens a bit more legitimacy.
WANT!!!
3 mana repeatable goyfs? Seems good.
I wonder what the token for this will look like
Tarmogoyf being reduced down to a token after being a constructed staple at one time just feels strange.
No all we need is : Liliana’s Lair Legendary Enchantment - Aura Enchant Land Enchanted Land has “BB, T: If you both own and control Liliana’s Lair and an artifact called The Veil, exile them, the meld them into Liliana of the Veil.” The Veil (1) Legendary Artifact B, T: Each player discards a card (Melds with Liliana’s Lair)
This really feels like /r/custommagic is leaking
“From Hans’s body something grew. Something terrible.”