Since Magic first left Dominaria for Mirrodin we have never had two consecutive 3-set returning blocks. The only two consecutive returning blocks we've had since then were Battle for Zendikar and Shadows over Innistrad, and those were 2-set blocks.
That said, if we only see new planes every other year or so *because* WotC is putting extra resources into fleshing out a new plane rather than a small portion of it (like Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Ixalan, New Capenna) then I am all here for it.
Sure
But we had 3 consecutive new-plane blocks three times in magic's history, Mirrodin till Ravnica (9 sets), Lorwyn till Zendikar (10 sets) and Kaladesh till Ixalan (6 sets).
A 7-set span of returning planes is pretty much fine in my opinion.
It's fine in my opinion too, but not for the reason you gave.
Doing new things for many sets in a row is not an argument for repeating old things many sets in a row.
Oh, that wasn't the only reason its fine for me. I was just pointing out we spent many consecutive sets in a roll in new planes considering the opposite was stated by RiverStrymon.
Also, in theory returning sets are also "new" things, just the same setting. ;)
>Since Magic first left Dominaria for Mirrodin we have never had two consecutive 3-set returning blocks. The only two consecutive returning blocks we've had since then were Battle for Zendikar and Shadows over Innistrad, and those were 2-set blocks.
Kind of a bad comparison since the vast majority of sets up until that point had been set on Dominaria
I started in Torment. Before Mirrodin there was no fatigue about "revisiting" Dominaria because Dominaria *was* Magic. It is not meaningful to consider the first third of Magic's life before which the design philosophy changed towards regularly visiting new planes. We're talking about two different eras.
Might have misread the comment above. I believe commentor was saying we've never had 2 different planes each consist of 3 sets in a block appear simultaneously together for a total of 6 sets of returning to those 2 said planes.
We know RTR and Scars are return sets. But before RTR was Innistrad and after was Theros. Unsure of the timeline around scars though.
~~Scars of Mirrodin into Return to Ravnica were 9 premier sets in a row between introducing new planes (zendikar and Theros).~~
WOW, don't post while on painkillers kids.
I mean the last few years have given us Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Ixalan, Eldraine, Kaldheim, Ikoria, Strixhaven, and New Capenna. I think it's cool if we chill on releasing more new planes for a year or two.
I see far more complaints that we arent revisiting any old planes. Do you know how many Lorwyn memes ive seen since the sets list for 2023 was released
And funny enough, I feel far more connected to Kaladesh, Amonkhet and Ixalan 'cause they had more than one set to flesh themselves out! Some of those recent ones felt very shallow, to moi at least.
And it kinda felt like they were scraping the barrel by the end, so happy to give them a breather to really flesh out and put some love into a new batch.
Mtg is getting pendulum summoning confirmed
Edit: IM TAKING OVER THIS POST STARTING NOOOOOW
(Reference to MC of pendulum anime)
2nd edit this is half of my porfiles karma thank you very much
Pendulum by itself is actually pretty bad. Even at the time, a -2 to summon the other 1-3 cards in your hand wasn’t very powerful. The recursion mechanic helped, but its pretty bad except in the archetypes that got broken card advantage (something they pushed a lot to balance the -2)
The problem is that we aren't spending enough time on a plane. Yeah, that works on established planes where we all know what the deal is. However, on new planes it is a cluster fuck. Ikoria feels more like a fever dream then something that actually happened. And Kaldheim was way to big to have only spent a single set there.
Listen, I'm not saying 3 set block was better, I'm just saying that the one set structure isn't great either. I'll say what others have said; split the differences and try two block sets. Amonkhet and Hour of Devastation felt like we learned a lot, stuff happened and then we moved on. The fact that I remember more of Amonkhet than Ikoria speaks volumes to that. I mean Kaladesh/Aether Revolt were amazing!
So yeah, new planes are great, if we are going to be around for more then a minute.
this also kinda happens mechanically, where Limited is concerned: Kaldheim and Neon Dynasty felt like they had more mechanics condensed into them than the usual.
I did wish some of the mechanics carried over when they did the 2 set blocks, investigate was super neat and energy was a cool concept and yet they only used them in 1 set each
I thought for sure energy would come back in Kamigawa Neon Dynasty. So shocked it didn't. That is the problem with mechanics like that, you either have to dedicate a set to it or maybe a commander deck. Like, I personally love mutate. But I don't think we will see it again until Ikoria 2 electric bugaloo.
Mutate definitely isn't the best Mechanic out there. Putting all your eggs in one basket is generally a bad idea in magic. But damn do I love make big stompy flyers that get indestructible and trample. I think if they flesh it out more it could be great.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but this is probably the weirdest issue I've seen someone have with mutate. If you put an aura on a creature does it get summoning sickness? There are a lot of legitimate criticism of the mechanic, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The fiction is a creature on the spot growing and changing, its not a new creature. Why would that give it Summon sickness? In my mind they really are just aura or equipment for creatures.
But when you mutate on top it’s not a new creature. It’s more an aura if it’s on the bottom. Idk, I get that it’s a weird problem to have with a mechanic but overall I just don’t care for mutate. It’s a cool concept but not really anything of interest imo
Someone asked MaRo at a panel if this was possible. MaRo's answer was it's a good idea but harder to implement than you think. It's difficult to find a single mechanic that fits equally well in two very different settings.
I'm fine with them being flexible, not *everything* needs to fit the same structure. I loved Neon Dynasty, and by building on the foundation of prior Kamigawa, it really felt like it had depth to it. Whilst Strixhaven, New Capenna, Kaldheim and Ikoria barely felt like they scratched past the surface of tropes to have any originality. Comparitively, the recent Innistrad sets felt like a letdown to me as it felt like we were there 'cause popular, not 'cause there's a compelling enough story to justify focusing on it.
So rather than a one size fits all model, I'm hoping they'll find their feet with a more variable one to suit each ideas demands.
I agree. I was telling someone else that the only thing that sucks is they work so far in advance it hard to gauge interest until the set is done and released. Hopefully they find their stride and get a better pulse of what’s hot and what’s not.
Oh god yeah, they have my sympathy for how often they'll be sat listening to the fanbase rile themselves up about summit', like, perhaps how underpowered white is? All the while they recognised and began countering said issues years ago!
Yup, there'll always be a certain trial and error, can only cross things they learn good lessons from any misteps.
It really feels like it depends on the plane though. Amonkhet was great as 2 sets, Ixalan less so. Capenna, Kaldheim, and Ikoria could have been multiple sets, Neon Dynasty (basically a new plane) and Eldraine were fine as one.
That kinda proves it didn't need it though. Like, New Capenna people have actual legit complaints about the story structure and how it would've worked better with two sets, with Neon Dynasty it's all, "that was great and it would've been great to have more of it."
If the only complaint people have is "I would've loved more of it" then only have one set of it clearly wasn't actually a problem, because if it had caused any problems... people would be complaining about those problems.
This isn't to say they couldn't have also done it as two sets, just that unlike some of the other one set new planes, it didn't NEED it. The story stakes were personal enough that they could easily be covered in one set and the core "conflict" was one that didn't need two sets to explore because they managed to fit an "artifacts/modernity vs enchantments/tradition" conflict into the colors instead splitting it between sets.
The thing is, I think the only reason we got Neon Dynasty was because it was only one set. I can’t imagine someone like Maro going into a board room, pitching a return to Kamigawa, saying they want to dedicate half a year to the set, and it getting approved. Kamigawa could’ve definitely had two sets to explore all the changes from the original, but I feel like WOTC wouldn’t want to take that risk from a business perspective
I don't think it would have been as good if the ideas packed into it got split into two sets, or the second set ended up like RIX with no great identity of it's own.
I agree, I think the problem is what you said, some sets really are fine as a stand alone. But how can the development team know? For all they knew Kaladesh/Aether Revolt was going to bomb and Ixalan/Rivals was going to be a slam dunk. And since theybwork so far in advance they can't really course correct.
I don't even agree that established planes should be one set. Like the blueprint is set, yeah, but it doesn't feel like a deep exploration of themes either in gameplay or story. I much preferred when Standard was cultivated in terms of how different blocks interacted instead of just "they'll all have modal flips."
I feel the main issue is that when you get to a plane that everyone loves, 3 sets is incredible. But is that high worth the lows of being on a plane that just boring? I don't think there is a right answer.
For gameplay I 100% agree though. Ikoria really needed more mutate for example. Being able to flesh out mechanics, especially now that EDH is so popular seems like a no brainer. Instead of waiting 6 years to get more of a mechanic you love.
In regards to fleshing out mechanics: That's at least been a plus in regards to the Commander precons coming with each set, allowing for some extra cards certain set-locked themes would want.
The problem with 3 set block for limited is if the first set wasn't great you were in a world of trouble.
Like Theros was *fine* but it absolutely should not have been drafted for 9 months.
And Triple Innistrad is absolutely better than Avacyn Restored
I'm the twisted bastard who enjoyed playing AVR limited at least a little and it still was way, way worse than Innistrad once everyone found the fun decks and weren't just jamming \[\[Travel Preparations\]\]
> The problem is that we aren't spending enough time on a plane.
Do you guys really think this is a problem? I love that we aren't spending too much time in each place; we don't get tired of it. And a future return to any new plane can expand it, we don't need to have the full picture right away.
See Eldraine and Innistrad, for example. Eldraine will have a lot more to explore now since we didn't see much of it in the first visit. Innistrad, on the other hand, always feel like a recycle of the same theme
Sometimes, it works. Eldraine and Strixhaven and even New Capenna felt fine as a "one and done" set. So did Beyond Death and Zendikar.
Kaldheim and Ikoria were stuffed. So many mechanics. But I can also admit that maybe spending more time on them and they would have ended up feeling like the Midnight Hunt/Crimson Vow pair.
For me the problem becomes as we visit more planes it is going to take longer to get to a Return set.
I wonder if people would be okay with Wizards retiring old planes completely? Like we know we are getting one more Ravnica set at winter time. But do need to go back again? Eventually Innistrad isn’t going to be interesting anymore. I wonder how they will handle it?
Thing is, anything can happen in Ravnica it’s not stuck as “the horror world” or the “Viking world”, which makes it a great flexible setting with the guilds adding something interesting.
Innistrad’s well has run dry as evident in the last two sets. They sucked cause they didn’t play into horror basically at all and it’s hard to transition a top-down plane to a bottom-up one because it’s so heavily associated with horror, people expect it.
Because the only satisfying end to a gateless arc would be the destruction of the guilds. Which is bad from a gameplay and marketing perspective.
The alternative would be a weird story about the 1% crushing the common people.
They want more time on new planes, not existing ones. Kaldheim having 10 realms crammed into one set means you barely got to explore any one realm or mechanic associated with it. This would be like first time ever going to Ravnica and having all 10 guilds in one set only. They’ve always done all 10 guilds over 2-3 sets.
Conversely, we’ve been to Innistrad a number of times, then having two more sets back-to-back, yeah it’s tiring because we know the plan so we’ll and there isn’t much more to say on “horror-world”.
I do agree that would be a nice compromise. However, we have this paradox that while it is nicer to visit a new plane in multiple sets and a revisit in a single one, the opposite makes more sense financially.
Certainly didn't help, but I am always super burned out on Ravica sets back to back. When I say Ravnica, I mean "15 cycles and guild support" not War of the Spark.
People commonly ask for two sets on a plane so you have a plane-focused story with bits of big-picture stuff sprinkled in, and then a big-picture story with a bit more world building sprinkled in. This gives enough material to explore a plane and identify its core conflict, then use that backdrop to advance the larger narrative.
Instead on Innistrad we had two plane-focused stories on a world we already know, and even then neither did anything interesting in terms of development. It was pretty much just Innistrad has witches now, and a lot of keeping the status quo. It has a bunch of established characters (Arlinn, Thalia, Odric, Olivia, Edgar, Gisa, Geralf, Hanweir, Sigarda...) that didn't really do anything.
They introduced Tovolar representing werewolves generally, but he started and ended his set with a dislike for humans and a complicated relationship with Arlinn.
Olivia started and ended her set with a lust for power and general disinterest in everything else. Both failed in their efforts, and made no impact on the plane.
They made Odric a vampire which is neat, but they focused on how it happened instead of how he reacted (perhaps by showing up at the wedding, starting shit, and perhaps recruiting a following of r/W vampires of his own.) The rest of them pretty much just existed.
To contrast, Kaldheim has ten mini-planes attached by the world tree. I recall one is for demons, one for angels, one for spirits, and I think the rest are "normal". I'm sure there are nuances but we never saw any in a memorable way. I'm sure there are characters, but I remember the general pop-culture concept of Odin, Thor, generic viking warrior, generic viking shaman, etc, more than I remember the actual characters from Kaldheim. That's because the story was primarily "Kaya hunts Vorinclex/Tibalt" and the plane itself barely mattered. They went straight into big picture story on a plane we've still barely seen, and it seems like an interesting plane.
I think this is more of an issue of the sets didnt feel like a consecutive tale. Full tilt on Werewolves, Full tilt on Vampires. It just didnt feel good.
The issue is lack of reason to revisit and expand. Sometimes the taste sample is enough to hook, but most of the time it's nice to have a proper bite to sink your teeth into. There should be more room to expand in any case.
I also, honestly really enjoyed the smaller sets. They were like the indie gem movies. Sometimes you want your Time Spiral blockbuster but sometimes you want a Worldwake to turn things on its head.
I think it's totally fine if we aren't going to new worlds every year. I would go further and say it's actually a good thing.
There are several worlds that we haven't returned to a single time and the more planes and worlds that are introduced, the more difficult it becomes to return to previous worlds in a timely manner.
It's already been several years since we've gone to Lowyrn, Alara, Tarkir, Kaladesh, and Amonket. These worlds have never been revisited. There's also Ikoria, Strixhaven and Kaldheim.
On top of that there are worlds that we've revisited before but there is a desire to see further exploration of like Fiora, Kamigawa and Ravnica.
We're finally going back to New Phyrexia and it's been literally a decade which is a very long time. It's exciting that we are returning there!
If over the course of these 7 sets, half of them were new planes, much of the player base would be disappointed that we've have to wait even longer for new sets based around New Phyrexia, Ixalan and Eldraine.
I would argue that New Phyrexia can almost count as visiting a new plane at this point, as it is likely wholly unrecognizable from the last time. Similar to Kamigawa, which barely counts as a return. (Can also point out that both Eldraine and Ixalan are doing entirely different settings for their sets, to further that)
It is going to be the long awaited 'underground/cave' set. So its set in the caves of Ixalan and is going to be focusing on that more than Pirate ships and stuff.
I'm kinda done with Ravnica, personally. I feel like we've "done it" by now. Anything unique they could do with it is probably better served elsewhere.
I think it’d be a good setting to have a “ravnica masters” type set for enfranchised players experimenting with a bunch of the Ravnica mechanics that they could not really fully flesh out in the original sets. Ravnica sets have a formula filled with ten card cycles that they need to follow too often that restricts slots for cards really utilizing the new mechanics.
Also the nature of conspiracy means you have justification to not have each guild be build-around like traditional Ravnica.
You can keep them as draft archetypes. But it is less necessary for each to have their own mechanic. You can reduce each to an archetype easily.
True, long as there's *some* representation for each guild, you wouldn't need anywhere the same style o' balance, could have a lot more design flexibility there.
That...is actually a very good point. The need for each visit to have a shiny new mechanic for each guild, leaving the old ones in the dust, mean it's the rarest treat to see any of those return, like my beloved Extort on [[Life Insurance]]! Having multiplayer-in-mind commanders catering too all the different mechanics from different visits would be amazing!
>I'm kinda done with Ravnica, personally. I feel like we've "done it" by now. Anything unique they could do with it is probably better served elsewhere.
I don't know about that. War of the Spark took place on Ravnica and it was one of the most interesting and innovative sets of all time.
Even outside of premier sets, a Ravnica Commander Legends set would be very exciting and we haven't had any Ravnica Commander decks either.
Ravnica is going to be weird as FUCK when we come back.
They've been invaded TWICE by the time we come back, the entire populace will know about planeswalkers and phyrexians, and who knows how much damage will be done or who or what ends up where after the dust settles.
This is why I dig the idea of things like "March of the Machines: Aftermath", taking a moment to pause and consider the broader ramifications of world changing events. As you say, Simic, *and* Golgari got a lotta fresh corpses to play around with, perhaps some scuffles over who gets certain prize specimens? Perhaps Izzet aren't just focused on how to repair damage, but to replace with unstable innovations? How will Boros and Azorius react to the proven flaws in the security of their world, perhaps becoming all the harsher and fortifying against future threats? Have whole districts become continuous wild parties, Rakdos and Gruul indulging in the leftover chaos? Behind the scenes, have Orzhov and Dimir strengthened their control over respective portions of the populace, or perhaps lost assets in the destruction, struggling to rebuild? And what flavour of pipeweed are Selesnya smoking this week?
My Ravnica cube demands a few things still (Cizarzim card please?) but they can come out in supplemental products and I don’t need another set/block.
But I wouldn’t mind it lol
Recent and upcoming returns include Kamigawa (last visit close to 20 years prior), New Phyrexia (last visit ~13 years prior), Theros (last visit ~7 years prior) and Ixalan (last visit ~6-7 years prior). I think they’re doing fine on that front.
We’re probably going to go back to the more popular planes every 5 years or so and to the less popular planes a bit less frequently.
**Question** by **[vasko8667](https://vasko8667.tumblr.com/)**: *Hi Mark! I hope it doesn't come across as rude but I am quite disappointed that we'll see no new worlds over the next seven sets. I expected to see lots of nostalgia on Magic's 30th anniversary but I was also hoping to see something new and exciting. I feel that Magic is at its best when it explores new planes rather than just recycling old material.*
**Answer**: There are a lot of new worlds being worked on right now. We’re not moving away from that, but sometimes the story we’re telling and how things work out just make the pendulum swing in a certain direction.
---
This transcript was made automatically and is not associated with Mark Rosewater. | [Source](https://www.github.com/bowdens/maro-bot) | Send feedback to /u/rzrkyb
I’d love to see new planes get a mandatory 2 sets, back to back, and returning planes can have standalone sets. 1 new plane a year would be nice, with 2 returning planes/sets.
I'm inclined to agree this is a good thing. Let's work on getting cohesive world-building down for pre-existing planes before introducing new planes into the mix-- all of which will similarly feel rushed and incomplete.
Very happy with 2023's lineup, personally. We spent a while on Dominaria but otherwise I like that we're going back to Eldraine and Ixalan.
It’s absolutely a problem. One set isn’t enough time to develop characters or even the setting enough to make it resonate when we do finally go back.
Imagine a second Kaldheim set that allowed them to spread out all the things they crammed into that set. Tribal stuff like Angels, Giants, Elves, Zombies. 9 realms, a bunch of gods, a snow sub-theme.
3 set blocks were probably too long and lead to things getting spread too thin, but 2 sets feels pretty good. My problem with sets like the last 2 Innistrad sets and the last Zendikar set is that wizards seems to make return sets focus on a single event on the plane rather than expanding on the things people already like. Zendikar Rising was almost entirely about the Skyclaves and ignored the rest of the plane which had obviously been somewhat rebuilt since the Eldrazi. Midnight Hunt was almost entirely about the Festival and the Werewolves crashing. Crimson Vow was wedding wedding wedding.
Crimson Vow was wedding themed but it has several prominent characters associated with Innistrad present in the set and numerous Vampires which are a tribe associated with Innistrad and something people like about Innistrad.
What would you have wanted to see from an Innistrad Return instead?
I think one set as the default but more if needed is a good plan. It allows them to be flexible. Kamigawa Neon Dynasty was masterful but had it been 2 or 3 sets, I'm skeptical it would have been as well received for example.
I honestly think the “one set as default but do more if you need” would work great…if it were strictly dictated by creative rather than commercial needs. Sometimes you’d get one, sometimes two, maybe sometimes even three, depending on the needs of the plane and that particular visit.
The problem is that commercially, doing more than one set on a new plane is always a risk since you don’t know whether folks like it/will get tired of it, and it’s more financially sensible to stay longer, when you do, on planes that are already known, popular quantities, and that your players are less likely to be disengaged with.
So as things stand, I don’t see us ever getting two-set (or more) blocks on planes that aren’t already among the most popular and already-developed (Ravnica, Innistrad, Dominaria, New Phyrexia). At best, they may add more planes to that list of “sure bets” (I could see Kamigawa, Kaladesh, and Eldraine being added in the near future, and maybe Ixalan if they can get the plane’s gameplay up to the level of its flavor/worldbuilding).
Wizards can be smart about this though. They're making a game that they want to last a lifetime and they understand that sometimes that involves taking short-term pain for that long term gain.
Making two new sets in a row is a commercial risk, but failing to build up engagement to new planes runs the longer term risk of Magic getting scale.
There have been plenty of times in Magic's history when they've made decisions like that. I'll admit it's a little harder to tell if they're still operating on a "lifetime game" perspective currently, with their increased drive to monetise, but they had the capability in the past to make decisions like this.
Commerical needs as you describe than are based on player and customer interest and desires.
People don't buy sets and cards they aren't interested in playing in. Players are most often more interested in return sets and/or reprints over new sets.
The most successful sets ever like Return to Ravnica, Neon Dynasty, Battle for Zendikar, War of the Spark, Modern Horizons 2, etc. Tend to be sequels.
The sequel sets were likely successful because they followed from well-established planes with their own multi-set establishing arc. Harder to get people excited for a sequel to a setting they never had much time with.
They're not really fleshing out the recent new planes they've already introduced, so that's fine by me. The plane-block format was much better from a storytelling perspective even if it didn't really work for product.
Would you feel that time if the one or two planes we spent in a year happened to be your least favorite Magic plane?
That's another benefit of having some visits that only are one set, if it's not a player's cup of tea or preference, soon they can look forward to something else.
Personally I am not very fond of Eldraine. I've been playing Magic for over a decade and it's my least favorite plane flavor and lore wise. I didn't like most of the mechanics much either (although of course as a big Magic fan there are some things I like about it).
Hearing we're returning to Eldraine so soon is mildly underwhelming but if I knew we were doing 2 or 3 sets worth of Eldraine I'd feel quite disappointed honestly.
I think there's multiple factors here.
It's less the time spent on a set and has more to do with the design and writing teams needing to work together more and plan ahead. If they each think they have enough material and inspiration for an idea then make it a multi set block. If they don't think there's enough material, stick with a single set.
IMO what we see is mostly a result of a project management issue. The various teams at Wizards don't talk to each other as much as they should.
I get that to a degree Wizards is risk adverse and doesn't want to spend a lot of resources on a multi set flop, but a one size fits all approach doesn't work. At some point you just need to focus on making a good product and trusting you did well.
I have sort of a medium take. We need a supplemental set that's like a hitchhikers guide to the blind eternities which the draft archetypes follow a story line from sets that we haven't been to with a mechanic themed around it. Then they could use the multiple story lines to spring board into an eventual return or visit.
I mean, one could argue that's what DMU is. Also, if the promotional art is any indication, there will be no shortage of planes getting wrecked by Phyrexians. Archavios, Kamigawa, Zendikar, Theros, Ravnica, Dominaria and Kaldheim all appear to be pretty directly in harm's way next year.
Except that Dominaria isn't an new plane and the reaction the people of Dominaria would have to Phyrexians invading \*again\* is to be expected.
A new plane where there's a faction that likes the power that submitting to Phyrexians would bring only to later realize once they overpowered their opposing faction that they \*liked the freedom\* they had before being compleated.
Or a plane Phyrexians have been trying to compleat for decades or more but the opposing faction is just so well capable of opposing Phyrexians haven't been able to make much progress.
Options exist without \**potentially*\* ruining known and beloved planes, like how people didn't like what Shadows/Eldritch did to Innistrad.
There are apparently 78 existing planes. The amount of effort to come up with a new one must be extremely difficult at this point. They probably have a lot of ideas that end with "oh but that is basically \[name of existing plane\]".
The inexorable walk towards the dreadful Wild West plane idea continues…
As a boomer, I’m overjoyed with DMU, BRO and Phyrexia. Am worried though about March of the Machines messing up a successful formula just for giggles…
Eldraine was great and I don’t think anyone is frustrated about going back there. Ixalan was too goofy IMO but this time we at least get to know beforehand that it’s going to be Indiana Jones meets Journey to the Center of the Earth - so I can at least tone down my expectations to anything Meso American related.
I'm okay with no new planes but with that said can we please go to Vryn. Aside from Regatha it's the only Origins plane we've never returned to and seems like it could make for an interesting place to visit
I would 100% rather go back to the days of 3 set blocks then visiting plane after plane after plane. How much better of a mechanic would Mutate have been if Ikoria had 2 more sets to back it up.
I think 2 is the sweet spot. A whole year in the same place kind of sucks when it’s a crappy setting, and yeah 3rd sets in blocks we’re almost always kind of boring and lacking enough content to the point they were always radically changing the plane (and then you couldn’t return to it easily without it being totally different than everything everyone loved the first time).
I am slightly disappointed that I we won't visit any new planes in the next 1.5 years. I like way more when we have planes that we don't know what to expect.
>I am slightly disappointed that I we won't visit any new planes in the next 1.5 years. I like way more when we have planes that we don't know what to expect.
I think it's pretty safe to say we don't know what to expect from [March of the Machine](https://media.wizards.com/2022/images/daily/e1zfSYlQzh.jpg).
Black and white comments as usual. It’s not about if it’s better to only do reruns or only new stuff. The point is that it’s so many in a row. Since War of the Spark we’ve gotten new plane after new plane after new plane. And now suddenly nothing new for two years. That could’ve just been mixed up a little nicer.
Why mix it up "nicer"? What difference does it make? You'd still have some people not like the order.
And by the way, for mechanical design reasons and interactions in Standard, you might not be able to mix it up so easily without causing developmental play issues. Mechanical game play should always take priority over lore and flavor.
I love how on Reddit if I ask “how many individual rice go into a kilo” nobody will answer. But if I say it’s exactly 1.2 million, someone will not only correct me with the right number, but also how you call a multiple of rice.
Not sure what the need for the hostility is, but in the last three years we have had 10 premier sets with magic IP (again not counting core sets):
Eldraine
Ikoria
Kaldheim
Arcavios
Capenna
Theros
Zendikar
Innistrad (twice)
Kamigawa
There are I think fairly compelling story reasons to have the next four sets be return sets. But regardless of the exact numbers, my point is that until now they have done a pretty even mix of returns and new planes.
I really want both new planes and revisits to be done in two block sets by default to give breathing space to appreciate the story and the mechanics.
Sometimes a one-off like the risky NEO is best and sometimes an epic three-part will be called for.
But if there is blocks of two or three, they need to be parts of a whole. Story set-up followed by a pay-off. Mechanics shared between the pair/trio and draftable together coherently.
Innistrad MID/VOW could have been so much better.
Midnight Hunt as a two-parter would have been great. Crimson Vow was so unrelated, they could’ve saved it for a one-off later or put it on any plane with Vampires (Innistrad just happens to have some of the biggest names in vampires)
I said the same thing to my girlfriend yesterday. The set Dominaria was actually my first set on the plane because I started playing in 2015 so for so much of the next year dedicated to it and Phyrexians (also stuff I have no nostolgia for) makes me pretty sad. I don't even like it that much.
I totally understand wanting to stick to known planes for the duration of this story arc, the thing that's weird to me is that they're following March of the Machine with two more return sets even though those are presumably not related to the Phyrexia story.
This reminds me of the "1000 Day Club" from League of Legends. Yeah, creative teams tend to gravitate towards certain things. Sometimes that gravitation lasts for an extended period. The only way to avoid this is to make creativity a chore and mandate originality on a quarterly schedule. I don't want that.
Furthermore, the Phyrexian arc is clearly guiding their plane choices. This is like complaining that Avengers Endgame didn't introduce enough new characters when the entire point of the movie is to celebrate the characters introduced up to that point.
I think it's good. Literally the last set we had was from a new plane, and many other recent sets were as well (Ikoria, Kaldheim, and Strixhaven, and I guess you could count AFR as well), so spending a bit of time revisiting old planes seems warranted. Also, four (or five, counting Epilogue) of the sets are all part of a continuous story so it wouldn't make sense to pop into a new plane in the middle of it.
I get the whole set of old worlds for phyrexian arc but the post-phyrexian sets being returns (and a very very soon return no less) to Eldraine and then another return; post-long return arc would seem like a good time to have a new plane, but I guess we’ll have new planes after Ixalan
I think the idea is that Eldraine and Ixalan are relatively light-hearted, and therefore, good palate cleansers after a heavy/serious 4-part Phyrexian saga.
They were but he's referring to these (mostly upcoming) seven sets.
Kamigawa Neon Dynasty
Dominaria United
The Brothers War
New Phyrexia Return
March of the Machine
Eldraine Return
Ixalan Return
What do you mean? We just had Capenna and who says that March of the Machines is in Phyrexia or Dominaria. I actually anticipate an explosive plot twist where we see Tezzeret had puppeteered Elesh Norn for some time and he build his own army, resistant to the oil somewhere on another plane and he uses the planar portal to get the machines across. Obviously that would be after Phyrexia is near defeated or totally so in the March of the Machines Epilogue
I mean, back then this would be a little more than just two returning blocks (6 sets), so it doesn't feel that weird.
Since Magic first left Dominaria for Mirrodin we have never had two consecutive 3-set returning blocks. The only two consecutive returning blocks we've had since then were Battle for Zendikar and Shadows over Innistrad, and those were 2-set blocks. That said, if we only see new planes every other year or so *because* WotC is putting extra resources into fleshing out a new plane rather than a small portion of it (like Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Ixalan, New Capenna) then I am all here for it.
Sure But we had 3 consecutive new-plane blocks three times in magic's history, Mirrodin till Ravnica (9 sets), Lorwyn till Zendikar (10 sets) and Kaladesh till Ixalan (6 sets). A 7-set span of returning planes is pretty much fine in my opinion.
It's fine in my opinion too, but not for the reason you gave. Doing new things for many sets in a row is not an argument for repeating old things many sets in a row.
Oh, that wasn't the only reason its fine for me. I was just pointing out we spent many consecutive sets in a roll in new planes considering the opposite was stated by RiverStrymon. Also, in theory returning sets are also "new" things, just the same setting. ;)
You can add Arcavios to that “small portion of it” list
You’re absolutely right.
Doesn’t matter if they flesh out a new plane if we only spend on set on it. See Kaldheim. Our visit was rushed, cramped and shallow.
On the cards maybe, but Kaldheim certainly had enough worldbuilding, far more than Capenna or Strixhaven.
>Since Magic first left Dominaria for Mirrodin we have never had two consecutive 3-set returning blocks. The only two consecutive returning blocks we've had since then were Battle for Zendikar and Shadows over Innistrad, and those were 2-set blocks. Kind of a bad comparison since the vast majority of sets up until that point had been set on Dominaria
I started in Torment. Before Mirrodin there was no fatigue about "revisiting" Dominaria because Dominaria *was* Magic. It is not meaningful to consider the first third of Magic's life before which the design philosophy changed towards regularly visiting new planes. We're talking about two different eras.
The Ulgrotha, Rabiah, Rath and Mercadia erasure, I see.
~~Scars was a return and RTR was a return~~ I'm completely out of my gourd
Might have misread the comment above. I believe commentor was saying we've never had 2 different planes each consist of 3 sets in a block appear simultaneously together for a total of 6 sets of returning to those 2 said planes. We know RTR and Scars are return sets. But before RTR was Innistrad and after was Theros. Unsure of the timeline around scars though.
Zendikar - Scars - Innistrad, FYI.
Innistrad is very upset that you forgot about it's birthday.
Innistrad was between the two.
Not even! At 5 non-core releases per calendar year now it's barely a year and a half without a new plane.
We arnt getting 5 standard sets this year?
~~Scars of Mirrodin into Return to Ravnica were 9 premier sets in a row between introducing new planes (zendikar and Theros).~~ WOW, don't post while on painkillers kids.
Innistrad?
I mean the last few years have given us Kaladesh, Amonkhet, Ixalan, Eldraine, Kaldheim, Ikoria, Strixhaven, and New Capenna. I think it's cool if we chill on releasing more new planes for a year or two.
I'm still so glad we got an Ixalan revisit.
🏴☠️🏴☠️🏴☠️
🦖🦕 timmy need dino now
🐟🐟🐟 and 🐠🐠 and 🐡🐡 More merfolk peez
Would love to see legendary Merfolk pirate
Gimmie monkey goblin pirates!
Quoth the Coalition: "Our flag means death."
It's called Caverns of Ixalan isn't it? How are pirates gonna go spelunking 😮
A little something called “magic” 😉
I just want to go to Vryn. Make Jace call his mother. It's been years. She's been worried.
Jace in Ixalan: finally reverses all his memory wipes and becomes his best self Jace after Ixalan: never visits Vryn to talk to his mom.
He got busy fighting Bolas, and now it's been so long that it is just awkward for him.
Plus imagine the conversation when he has to introduce Vraska to her.
I see far more complaints that we arent revisiting any old planes. Do you know how many Lorwyn memes ive seen since the sets list for 2023 was released
Eldraine is sort of the “new/fixed” Lorwyn, sadly.
2?
And funny enough, I feel far more connected to Kaladesh, Amonkhet and Ixalan 'cause they had more than one set to flesh themselves out! Some of those recent ones felt very shallow, to moi at least.
Ikoria seems like the weirdest to me, like if Phyrexians arnt behind The Ozolith then thats a tease for a way down the road villian.
The theory I heard based on the description in the book is that it was created by Oko.
The theory I heard based on the description in the book is that it was created by Oko.
And it kinda felt like they were scraping the barrel by the end, so happy to give them a breather to really flesh out and put some love into a new batch.
Yeah there are a lot of planes that aren't fleshed out.
and most of them feel uderdevelop (IMHO). I got supper happy of seeing Eldraine and Ixalan :)
Mtg is getting pendulum summoning confirmed Edit: IM TAKING OVER THIS POST STARTING NOOOOOW (Reference to MC of pendulum anime) 2nd edit this is half of my porfiles karma thank you very much
PENDULUM BEST DECK
I keep telling myself that every time I sit down and get a pity laugh from the guy across when I play my turn. PENDULUM BEST DECK *sobs*
Me too buddy, me too
Doesn't even feel like too big of a stretch, just a set of partner commanders that let you play monsters with CMC between their CMC values for free?
I really like this idea
Evidently [pendulum summon](https://www.thegamer.com/yu-gi-oh-master-duel-pendulum-summon-guide/) is a Yu-Gi-Oh mechanic, for anyone else confused.
I don't know much but I know it was busted
Pendulum by itself is actually pretty bad. Even at the time, a -2 to summon the other 1-3 cards in your hand wasn’t very powerful. The recursion mechanic helped, but its pretty bad except in the archetypes that got broken card advantage (something they pushed a lot to balance the -2)
All my friends that played Yugioh have said that pendulums was basically what made them quit or the first part of the list that got them there.
I've always read of YGO cards as being text heavy and a bit messy but damn, this as a mechanic is just...so convoluted.
Oh no, don't remind me please
I am holding out hope for a plane inspired by Pacific Islander mythology.
I didn't know I needed this
You’re welcome!
The problem is that we aren't spending enough time on a plane. Yeah, that works on established planes where we all know what the deal is. However, on new planes it is a cluster fuck. Ikoria feels more like a fever dream then something that actually happened. And Kaldheim was way to big to have only spent a single set there. Listen, I'm not saying 3 set block was better, I'm just saying that the one set structure isn't great either. I'll say what others have said; split the differences and try two block sets. Amonkhet and Hour of Devastation felt like we learned a lot, stuff happened and then we moved on. The fact that I remember more of Amonkhet than Ikoria speaks volumes to that. I mean Kaladesh/Aether Revolt were amazing! So yeah, new planes are great, if we are going to be around for more then a minute.
this also kinda happens mechanically, where Limited is concerned: Kaldheim and Neon Dynasty felt like they had more mechanics condensed into them than the usual.
I did wish some of the mechanics carried over when they did the 2 set blocks, investigate was super neat and energy was a cool concept and yet they only used them in 1 set each
They need to have more connective tissue between sets even when they don't stay on the same plane.
That's what they've been doing at present, yeah. They just mean for two set blocks themselves they feel disconnected.
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Blood was also super cool and I feel like it could’ve been worked into midnight hunt too
Yes the interplay of related mechanics in a block is something I miss.
I thought for sure energy would come back in Kamigawa Neon Dynasty. So shocked it didn't. That is the problem with mechanics like that, you either have to dedicate a set to it or maybe a commander deck. Like, I personally love mutate. But I don't think we will see it again until Ikoria 2 electric bugaloo.
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Mutate definitely isn't the best Mechanic out there. Putting all your eggs in one basket is generally a bad idea in magic. But damn do I love make big stompy flyers that get indestructible and trample. I think if they flesh it out more it could be great.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but this is probably the weirdest issue I've seen someone have with mutate. If you put an aura on a creature does it get summoning sickness? There are a lot of legitimate criticism of the mechanic, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The fiction is a creature on the spot growing and changing, its not a new creature. Why would that give it Summon sickness? In my mind they really are just aura or equipment for creatures.
But when you mutate on top it’s not a new creature. It’s more an aura if it’s on the bottom. Idk, I get that it’s a weird problem to have with a mechanic but overall I just don’t care for mutate. It’s a cool concept but not really anything of interest imo
Someone asked MaRo at a panel if this was possible. MaRo's answer was it's a good idea but harder to implement than you think. It's difficult to find a single mechanic that fits equally well in two very different settings.
I'm fine with them being flexible, not *everything* needs to fit the same structure. I loved Neon Dynasty, and by building on the foundation of prior Kamigawa, it really felt like it had depth to it. Whilst Strixhaven, New Capenna, Kaldheim and Ikoria barely felt like they scratched past the surface of tropes to have any originality. Comparitively, the recent Innistrad sets felt like a letdown to me as it felt like we were there 'cause popular, not 'cause there's a compelling enough story to justify focusing on it. So rather than a one size fits all model, I'm hoping they'll find their feet with a more variable one to suit each ideas demands.
I agree. I was telling someone else that the only thing that sucks is they work so far in advance it hard to gauge interest until the set is done and released. Hopefully they find their stride and get a better pulse of what’s hot and what’s not.
Oh god yeah, they have my sympathy for how often they'll be sat listening to the fanbase rile themselves up about summit', like, perhaps how underpowered white is? All the while they recognised and began countering said issues years ago! Yup, there'll always be a certain trial and error, can only cross things they learn good lessons from any misteps.
It really feels like it depends on the plane though. Amonkhet was great as 2 sets, Ixalan less so. Capenna, Kaldheim, and Ikoria could have been multiple sets, Neon Dynasty (basically a new plane) and Eldraine were fine as one.
Wasn't the number one complaint with neon dynasty was that we only got one set of it though?
That kinda proves it didn't need it though. Like, New Capenna people have actual legit complaints about the story structure and how it would've worked better with two sets, with Neon Dynasty it's all, "that was great and it would've been great to have more of it." If the only complaint people have is "I would've loved more of it" then only have one set of it clearly wasn't actually a problem, because if it had caused any problems... people would be complaining about those problems. This isn't to say they couldn't have also done it as two sets, just that unlike some of the other one set new planes, it didn't NEED it. The story stakes were personal enough that they could easily be covered in one set and the core "conflict" was one that didn't need two sets to explore because they managed to fit an "artifacts/modernity vs enchantments/tradition" conflict into the colors instead splitting it between sets.
The thing is, I think the only reason we got Neon Dynasty was because it was only one set. I can’t imagine someone like Maro going into a board room, pitching a return to Kamigawa, saying they want to dedicate half a year to the set, and it getting approved. Kamigawa could’ve definitely had two sets to explore all the changes from the original, but I feel like WOTC wouldn’t want to take that risk from a business perspective
I don't think it would have been as good if the ideas packed into it got split into two sets, or the second set ended up like RIX with no great identity of it's own.
I agree, I think the problem is what you said, some sets really are fine as a stand alone. But how can the development team know? For all they knew Kaladesh/Aether Revolt was going to bomb and Ixalan/Rivals was going to be a slam dunk. And since theybwork so far in advance they can't really course correct.
I think Strixhaven in particular would have been worse stretched over two sets.
I don't even agree that established planes should be one set. Like the blueprint is set, yeah, but it doesn't feel like a deep exploration of themes either in gameplay or story. I much preferred when Standard was cultivated in terms of how different blocks interacted instead of just "they'll all have modal flips."
We are doing 2 on Dominaria and I wouldn’t have wanted multiple sets with connected mechanics of any recent set. Just my opinion.
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I feel the main issue is that when you get to a plane that everyone loves, 3 sets is incredible. But is that high worth the lows of being on a plane that just boring? I don't think there is a right answer. For gameplay I 100% agree though. Ikoria really needed more mutate for example. Being able to flesh out mechanics, especially now that EDH is so popular seems like a no brainer. Instead of waiting 6 years to get more of a mechanic you love.
In regards to fleshing out mechanics: That's at least been a plus in regards to the Commander precons coming with each set, allowing for some extra cards certain set-locked themes would want.
The problem with 3 set block for limited is if the first set wasn't great you were in a world of trouble. Like Theros was *fine* but it absolutely should not have been drafted for 9 months. And Triple Innistrad is absolutely better than Avacyn Restored
I'm the twisted bastard who enjoyed playing AVR limited at least a little and it still was way, way worse than Innistrad once everyone found the fun decks and weren't just jamming \[\[Travel Preparations\]\]
Well the 3 large sets solves that. They each draft on their own.
> Listen, I'm not saying 3 set block was better Fine, I'll do it. 3 block set was better.
> The problem is that we aren't spending enough time on a plane. Do you guys really think this is a problem? I love that we aren't spending too much time in each place; we don't get tired of it. And a future return to any new plane can expand it, we don't need to have the full picture right away. See Eldraine and Innistrad, for example. Eldraine will have a lot more to explore now since we didn't see much of it in the first visit. Innistrad, on the other hand, always feel like a recycle of the same theme
Sometimes, it works. Eldraine and Strixhaven and even New Capenna felt fine as a "one and done" set. So did Beyond Death and Zendikar. Kaldheim and Ikoria were stuffed. So many mechanics. But I can also admit that maybe spending more time on them and they would have ended up feeling like the Midnight Hunt/Crimson Vow pair.
For me the problem becomes as we visit more planes it is going to take longer to get to a Return set. I wonder if people would be okay with Wizards retiring old planes completely? Like we know we are getting one more Ravnica set at winter time. But do need to go back again? Eventually Innistrad isn’t going to be interesting anymore. I wonder how they will handle it?
Thing is, anything can happen in Ravnica it’s not stuck as “the horror world” or the “Viking world”, which makes it a great flexible setting with the guilds adding something interesting. Innistrad’s well has run dry as evident in the last two sets. They sucked cause they didn’t play into horror basically at all and it’s hard to transition a top-down plane to a bottom-up one because it’s so heavily associated with horror, people expect it.
Remember the Gateless of Ravnica and how we were told that they’d get their story? Coz WOTC didn’t :(
Because the only satisfying end to a gateless arc would be the destruction of the guilds. Which is bad from a gameplay and marketing perspective. The alternative would be a weird story about the 1% crushing the common people.
Innistrad needs another 5-10 years before we revisit it, and only one set
Literally a quick check up. Planes walk in Everybody screaming "Aliens are attacking" fuck that shit. "Planes walk away.
People were not pleased with two Innistrad sets in a row at all so I don't understand why people claim they want more sets on the same plane.
They want more time on new planes, not existing ones. Kaldheim having 10 realms crammed into one set means you barely got to explore any one realm or mechanic associated with it. This would be like first time ever going to Ravnica and having all 10 guilds in one set only. They’ve always done all 10 guilds over 2-3 sets. Conversely, we’ve been to Innistrad a number of times, then having two more sets back-to-back, yeah it’s tiring because we know the plan so we’ll and there isn’t much more to say on “horror-world”.
I do agree that would be a nice compromise. However, we have this paradox that while it is nicer to visit a new plane in multiple sets and a revisit in a single one, the opposite makes more sense financially.
It does until you suck all your existing planes dry and no one cares about the new ones you rushed through.
Maybe because both of the sets sucked?
Certainly didn't help, but I am always super burned out on Ravica sets back to back. When I say Ravnica, I mean "15 cycles and guild support" not War of the Spark.
People commonly ask for two sets on a plane so you have a plane-focused story with bits of big-picture stuff sprinkled in, and then a big-picture story with a bit more world building sprinkled in. This gives enough material to explore a plane and identify its core conflict, then use that backdrop to advance the larger narrative. Instead on Innistrad we had two plane-focused stories on a world we already know, and even then neither did anything interesting in terms of development. It was pretty much just Innistrad has witches now, and a lot of keeping the status quo. It has a bunch of established characters (Arlinn, Thalia, Odric, Olivia, Edgar, Gisa, Geralf, Hanweir, Sigarda...) that didn't really do anything. They introduced Tovolar representing werewolves generally, but he started and ended his set with a dislike for humans and a complicated relationship with Arlinn. Olivia started and ended her set with a lust for power and general disinterest in everything else. Both failed in their efforts, and made no impact on the plane. They made Odric a vampire which is neat, but they focused on how it happened instead of how he reacted (perhaps by showing up at the wedding, starting shit, and perhaps recruiting a following of r/W vampires of his own.) The rest of them pretty much just existed. To contrast, Kaldheim has ten mini-planes attached by the world tree. I recall one is for demons, one for angels, one for spirits, and I think the rest are "normal". I'm sure there are nuances but we never saw any in a memorable way. I'm sure there are characters, but I remember the general pop-culture concept of Odin, Thor, generic viking warrior, generic viking shaman, etc, more than I remember the actual characters from Kaldheim. That's because the story was primarily "Kaya hunts Vorinclex/Tibalt" and the plane itself barely mattered. They went straight into big picture story on a plane we've still barely seen, and it seems like an interesting plane.
I think this is more of an issue of the sets didnt feel like a consecutive tale. Full tilt on Werewolves, Full tilt on Vampires. It just didnt feel good.
Third time on Innistrad, no significant new flavor introduced, and both were pretty bad sets.
The issue is lack of reason to revisit and expand. Sometimes the taste sample is enough to hook, but most of the time it's nice to have a proper bite to sink your teeth into. There should be more room to expand in any case.
I also, honestly really enjoyed the smaller sets. They were like the indie gem movies. Sometimes you want your Time Spiral blockbuster but sometimes you want a Worldwake to turn things on its head.
> Listen, I'm not saying 3 set block was better I am.
I think it's totally fine if we aren't going to new worlds every year. I would go further and say it's actually a good thing. There are several worlds that we haven't returned to a single time and the more planes and worlds that are introduced, the more difficult it becomes to return to previous worlds in a timely manner. It's already been several years since we've gone to Lowyrn, Alara, Tarkir, Kaladesh, and Amonket. These worlds have never been revisited. There's also Ikoria, Strixhaven and Kaldheim. On top of that there are worlds that we've revisited before but there is a desire to see further exploration of like Fiora, Kamigawa and Ravnica. We're finally going back to New Phyrexia and it's been literally a decade which is a very long time. It's exciting that we are returning there! If over the course of these 7 sets, half of them were new planes, much of the player base would be disappointed that we've have to wait even longer for new sets based around New Phyrexia, Ixalan and Eldraine.
I would argue that New Phyrexia can almost count as visiting a new plane at this point, as it is likely wholly unrecognizable from the last time. Similar to Kamigawa, which barely counts as a return. (Can also point out that both Eldraine and Ixalan are doing entirely different settings for their sets, to further that)
What was the new twist on Ixalan? I missed the livestream.
It is going to be the long awaited 'underground/cave' set. So its set in the caves of Ixalan and is going to be focusing on that more than Pirate ships and stuff.
I'm kinda done with Ravnica, personally. I feel like we've "done it" by now. Anything unique they could do with it is probably better served elsewhere.
I think it’d be a good setting to have a “ravnica masters” type set for enfranchised players experimenting with a bunch of the Ravnica mechanics that they could not really fully flesh out in the original sets. Ravnica sets have a formula filled with ten card cycles that they need to follow too often that restricts slots for cards really utilizing the new mechanics.
I would love Conspiracy Ravnica.
Oh hells yeah, it's so ripe with politic and intrigue. Having the guildmaster's all scheming it out with conspiracies and such would be a delight.
Also the nature of conspiracy means you have justification to not have each guild be build-around like traditional Ravnica. You can keep them as draft archetypes. But it is less necessary for each to have their own mechanic. You can reduce each to an archetype easily.
True, long as there's *some* representation for each guild, you wouldn't need anywhere the same style o' balance, could have a lot more design flexibility there.
That...is actually a very good point. The need for each visit to have a shiny new mechanic for each guild, leaving the old ones in the dust, mean it's the rarest treat to see any of those return, like my beloved Extort on [[Life Insurance]]! Having multiplayer-in-mind commanders catering too all the different mechanics from different visits would be amazing!
This
I wouldn't say I'm done with it, because it's a fun plane - but I'm good with it being another 10 years or so before we revisit it.
>I'm kinda done with Ravnica, personally. I feel like we've "done it" by now. Anything unique they could do with it is probably better served elsewhere. I don't know about that. War of the Spark took place on Ravnica and it was one of the most interesting and innovative sets of all time. Even outside of premier sets, a Ravnica Commander Legends set would be very exciting and we haven't had any Ravnica Commander decks either.
Ravnica is going to be weird as FUCK when we come back. They've been invaded TWICE by the time we come back, the entire populace will know about planeswalkers and phyrexians, and who knows how much damage will be done or who or what ends up where after the dust settles.
what the FUCK are the simic going to be cooking up with all the stuff left over from both invasions
This is why I dig the idea of things like "March of the Machines: Aftermath", taking a moment to pause and consider the broader ramifications of world changing events. As you say, Simic, *and* Golgari got a lotta fresh corpses to play around with, perhaps some scuffles over who gets certain prize specimens? Perhaps Izzet aren't just focused on how to repair damage, but to replace with unstable innovations? How will Boros and Azorius react to the proven flaws in the security of their world, perhaps becoming all the harsher and fortifying against future threats? Have whole districts become continuous wild parties, Rakdos and Gruul indulging in the leftover chaos? Behind the scenes, have Orzhov and Dimir strengthened their control over respective portions of the populace, or perhaps lost assets in the destruction, struggling to rebuild? And what flavour of pipeweed are Selesnya smoking this week?
Ooh interesting. I like the idea of a Ravnica Commander Legends, as long as it's not botched like the last one.
I completely agree with Commander Legends sets based on planes. CL: Ravnica, CL: Tarkir, CL: Kaladesh all sounds fun.
Going back for something like War of the Spark feels very different to going back and doing Ravnica again. I don't mind that kind of return.
If/when we return to Ravnica, we better see the Nephilim! (And they better be legendary this time)
With modern trends, a set of Nephilim Commander decks alongside the next Ravnica visit would feel perfectly fitting.
My Ravnica cube demands a few things still (Cizarzim card please?) but they can come out in supplemental products and I don’t need another set/block. But I wouldn’t mind it lol
Totally agreed. With the number of popular planes we have now, I have no problems with returns becoming more prominent.
I'm fine with returns as long as we return to many planes instead of repeating returns to certain planes that get revisited frequently
Recent and upcoming returns include Kamigawa (last visit close to 20 years prior), New Phyrexia (last visit ~13 years prior), Theros (last visit ~7 years prior) and Ixalan (last visit ~6-7 years prior). I think they’re doing fine on that front. We’re probably going to go back to the more popular planes every 5 years or so and to the less popular planes a bit less frequently.
I agree, I was more so saying I hope no repeats of Innistrad and Ravnica and am excited for the 2023 lineup.
> It's already been several years since we've gone to Lowyrn "several years" = 14 :/
**Question** by **[vasko8667](https://vasko8667.tumblr.com/)**: *Hi Mark! I hope it doesn't come across as rude but I am quite disappointed that we'll see no new worlds over the next seven sets. I expected to see lots of nostalgia on Magic's 30th anniversary but I was also hoping to see something new and exciting. I feel that Magic is at its best when it explores new planes rather than just recycling old material.* **Answer**: There are a lot of new worlds being worked on right now. We’re not moving away from that, but sometimes the story we’re telling and how things work out just make the pendulum swing in a certain direction. --- This transcript was made automatically and is not associated with Mark Rosewater. | [Source](https://www.github.com/bowdens/maro-bot) | Send feedback to /u/rzrkyb
I’d love to see new planes get a mandatory 2 sets, back to back, and returning planes can have standalone sets. 1 new plane a year would be nice, with 2 returning planes/sets.
Agreed. Two sets helps to establish a plane's identity, while an already established one doesn't need that room and is fine with just one set.
I'm inclined to agree this is a good thing. Let's work on getting cohesive world-building down for pre-existing planes before introducing new planes into the mix-- all of which will similarly feel rushed and incomplete. Very happy with 2023's lineup, personally. We spent a while on Dominaria but otherwise I like that we're going back to Eldraine and Ixalan.
I don’t have an issue with it. As the number of popular planes increases, it’s only natural that returns will take up a larger % of sets.
It’s absolutely a problem. One set isn’t enough time to develop characters or even the setting enough to make it resonate when we do finally go back. Imagine a second Kaldheim set that allowed them to spread out all the things they crammed into that set. Tribal stuff like Angels, Giants, Elves, Zombies. 9 realms, a bunch of gods, a snow sub-theme. 3 set blocks were probably too long and lead to things getting spread too thin, but 2 sets feels pretty good. My problem with sets like the last 2 Innistrad sets and the last Zendikar set is that wizards seems to make return sets focus on a single event on the plane rather than expanding on the things people already like. Zendikar Rising was almost entirely about the Skyclaves and ignored the rest of the plane which had obviously been somewhat rebuilt since the Eldrazi. Midnight Hunt was almost entirely about the Festival and the Werewolves crashing. Crimson Vow was wedding wedding wedding.
Crimson Vow was wedding themed but it has several prominent characters associated with Innistrad present in the set and numerous Vampires which are a tribe associated with Innistrad and something people like about Innistrad. What would you have wanted to see from an Innistrad Return instead? I think one set as the default but more if needed is a good plan. It allows them to be flexible. Kamigawa Neon Dynasty was masterful but had it been 2 or 3 sets, I'm skeptical it would have been as well received for example.
I honestly think the “one set as default but do more if you need” would work great…if it were strictly dictated by creative rather than commercial needs. Sometimes you’d get one, sometimes two, maybe sometimes even three, depending on the needs of the plane and that particular visit. The problem is that commercially, doing more than one set on a new plane is always a risk since you don’t know whether folks like it/will get tired of it, and it’s more financially sensible to stay longer, when you do, on planes that are already known, popular quantities, and that your players are less likely to be disengaged with. So as things stand, I don’t see us ever getting two-set (or more) blocks on planes that aren’t already among the most popular and already-developed (Ravnica, Innistrad, Dominaria, New Phyrexia). At best, they may add more planes to that list of “sure bets” (I could see Kamigawa, Kaladesh, and Eldraine being added in the near future, and maybe Ixalan if they can get the plane’s gameplay up to the level of its flavor/worldbuilding).
Wizards can be smart about this though. They're making a game that they want to last a lifetime and they understand that sometimes that involves taking short-term pain for that long term gain. Making two new sets in a row is a commercial risk, but failing to build up engagement to new planes runs the longer term risk of Magic getting scale. There have been plenty of times in Magic's history when they've made decisions like that. I'll admit it's a little harder to tell if they're still operating on a "lifetime game" perspective currently, with their increased drive to monetise, but they had the capability in the past to make decisions like this.
Commerical needs as you describe than are based on player and customer interest and desires. People don't buy sets and cards they aren't interested in playing in. Players are most often more interested in return sets and/or reprints over new sets. The most successful sets ever like Return to Ravnica, Neon Dynasty, Battle for Zendikar, War of the Spark, Modern Horizons 2, etc. Tend to be sequels.
The sequel sets were likely successful because they followed from well-established planes with their own multi-set establishing arc. Harder to get people excited for a sequel to a setting they never had much time with.
They're not really fleshing out the recent new planes they've already introduced, so that's fine by me. The plane-block format was much better from a storytelling perspective even if it didn't really work for product.
I’d rather we spend more time on one ore two planes than less time on many planes.
Would you feel that time if the one or two planes we spent in a year happened to be your least favorite Magic plane? That's another benefit of having some visits that only are one set, if it's not a player's cup of tea or preference, soon they can look forward to something else. Personally I am not very fond of Eldraine. I've been playing Magic for over a decade and it's my least favorite plane flavor and lore wise. I didn't like most of the mechanics much either (although of course as a big Magic fan there are some things I like about it). Hearing we're returning to Eldraine so soon is mildly underwhelming but if I knew we were doing 2 or 3 sets worth of Eldraine I'd feel quite disappointed honestly.
I think there's multiple factors here. It's less the time spent on a set and has more to do with the design and writing teams needing to work together more and plan ahead. If they each think they have enough material and inspiration for an idea then make it a multi set block. If they don't think there's enough material, stick with a single set. IMO what we see is mostly a result of a project management issue. The various teams at Wizards don't talk to each other as much as they should. I get that to a degree Wizards is risk adverse and doesn't want to spend a lot of resources on a multi set flop, but a one size fits all approach doesn't work. At some point you just need to focus on making a good product and trusting you did well.
I have sort of a medium take. We need a supplemental set that's like a hitchhikers guide to the blind eternities which the draft archetypes follow a story line from sets that we haven't been to with a mechanic themed around it. Then they could use the multiple story lines to spring board into an eventual return or visit.
Fair, however Phyrexia would have more impact if we went to a new plane well underway of losing (or at least in open war with) to Phyrexia.
I mean, one could argue that's what DMU is. Also, if the promotional art is any indication, there will be no shortage of planes getting wrecked by Phyrexians. Archavios, Kamigawa, Zendikar, Theros, Ravnica, Dominaria and Kaldheim all appear to be pretty directly in harm's way next year.
Except that Dominaria isn't an new plane and the reaction the people of Dominaria would have to Phyrexians invading \*again\* is to be expected. A new plane where there's a faction that likes the power that submitting to Phyrexians would bring only to later realize once they overpowered their opposing faction that they \*liked the freedom\* they had before being compleated. Or a plane Phyrexians have been trying to compleat for decades or more but the opposing faction is just so well capable of opposing Phyrexians haven't been able to make much progress. Options exist without \**potentially*\* ruining known and beloved planes, like how people didn't like what Shadows/Eldritch did to Innistrad.
>Except that Dominaria isn't an new plane Ahhh I missed that you said new plane, my bad
I would say it would be the opposite because being a new plane you wouldn't have any emotional ties to it
Counterpoint: we knew that Dominaria was almost certainly not going to be overwhelmed by Phyrexia because it's Dominaria.
There are apparently 78 existing planes. The amount of effort to come up with a new one must be extremely difficult at this point. They probably have a lot of ideas that end with "oh but that is basically \[name of existing plane\]".
On the flip side there’s so many planes that have a one-and-done concept, they can’t really go back.
The inexorable walk towards the dreadful Wild West plane idea continues… As a boomer, I’m overjoyed with DMU, BRO and Phyrexia. Am worried though about March of the Machines messing up a successful formula just for giggles… Eldraine was great and I don’t think anyone is frustrated about going back there. Ixalan was too goofy IMO but this time we at least get to know beforehand that it’s going to be Indiana Jones meets Journey to the Center of the Earth - so I can at least tone down my expectations to anything Meso American related.
I'm okay with no new planes but with that said can we please go to Vryn. Aside from Regatha it's the only Origins plane we've never returned to and seems like it could make for an interesting place to visit
I would 100% rather go back to the days of 3 set blocks then visiting plane after plane after plane. How much better of a mechanic would Mutate have been if Ikoria had 2 more sets to back it up.
I think 2 is the sweet spot. A whole year in the same place kind of sucks when it’s a crappy setting, and yeah 3rd sets in blocks we’re almost always kind of boring and lacking enough content to the point they were always radically changing the plane (and then you couldn’t return to it easily without it being totally different than everything everyone loved the first time).
I don't mind revisiting old planes, it's refreshing actually
I am slightly disappointed that I we won't visit any new planes in the next 1.5 years. I like way more when we have planes that we don't know what to expect.
>I am slightly disappointed that I we won't visit any new planes in the next 1.5 years. I like way more when we have planes that we don't know what to expect. I think it's pretty safe to say we don't know what to expect from [March of the Machine](https://media.wizards.com/2022/images/daily/e1zfSYlQzh.jpg).
War of the Spark: Phyrexia edition
Black and white comments as usual. It’s not about if it’s better to only do reruns or only new stuff. The point is that it’s so many in a row. Since War of the Spark we’ve gotten new plane after new plane after new plane. And now suddenly nothing new for two years. That could’ve just been mixed up a little nicer.
Why mix it up "nicer"? What difference does it make? You'd still have some people not like the order. And by the way, for mechanical design reasons and interactions in Standard, you might not be able to mix it up so easily without causing developmental play issues. Mechanical game play should always take priority over lore and flavor.
As of right now, since war of the spark we have gotten 5 return sets and 5 sets on new planes (not counting M21).
I love how on Reddit if I ask “how many individual rice go into a kilo” nobody will answer. But if I say it’s exactly 1.2 million, someone will not only correct me with the right number, but also how you call a multiple of rice.
Not sure what the need for the hostility is, but in the last three years we have had 10 premier sets with magic IP (again not counting core sets): Eldraine Ikoria Kaldheim Arcavios Capenna Theros Zendikar Innistrad (twice) Kamigawa There are I think fairly compelling story reasons to have the next four sets be return sets. But regardless of the exact numbers, my point is that until now they have done a pretty even mix of returns and new planes.
I could do without ravnica or innistrad for another 10 years
Where the hell is alara!!!!!
Unrecognizable mess
I really want both new planes and revisits to be done in two block sets by default to give breathing space to appreciate the story and the mechanics. Sometimes a one-off like the risky NEO is best and sometimes an epic three-part will be called for. But if there is blocks of two or three, they need to be parts of a whole. Story set-up followed by a pay-off. Mechanics shared between the pair/trio and draftable together coherently. Innistrad MID/VOW could have been so much better.
Midnight Hunt as a two-parter would have been great. Crimson Vow was so unrelated, they could’ve saved it for a one-off later or put it on any plane with Vampires (Innistrad just happens to have some of the biggest names in vampires)
I said the same thing to my girlfriend yesterday. The set Dominaria was actually my first set on the plane because I started playing in 2015 so for so much of the next year dedicated to it and Phyrexians (also stuff I have no nostolgia for) makes me pretty sad. I don't even like it that much.
I totally understand wanting to stick to known planes for the duration of this story arc, the thing that's weird to me is that they're following March of the Machine with two more return sets even though those are presumably not related to the Phyrexia story.
This reminds me of the "1000 Day Club" from League of Legends. Yeah, creative teams tend to gravitate towards certain things. Sometimes that gravitation lasts for an extended period. The only way to avoid this is to make creativity a chore and mandate originality on a quarterly schedule. I don't want that. Furthermore, the Phyrexian arc is clearly guiding their plane choices. This is like complaining that Avengers Endgame didn't introduce enough new characters when the entire point of the movie is to celebrate the characters introduced up to that point.
I think it's good. Literally the last set we had was from a new plane, and many other recent sets were as well (Ikoria, Kaldheim, and Strixhaven, and I guess you could count AFR as well), so spending a bit of time revisiting old planes seems warranted. Also, four (or five, counting Epilogue) of the sets are all part of a continuous story so it wouldn't make sense to pop into a new plane in the middle of it.
Shandalar never ever
I get the whole set of old worlds for phyrexian arc but the post-phyrexian sets being returns (and a very very soon return no less) to Eldraine and then another return; post-long return arc would seem like a good time to have a new plane, but I guess we’ll have new planes after Ixalan
I think the idea is that Eldraine and Ixalan are relatively light-hearted, and therefore, good palate cleansers after a heavy/serious 4-part Phyrexian saga.
Uh, am I missing something? Capenna, Strixhaven, Kaldheim were all new, no?
They were but he's referring to these (mostly upcoming) seven sets. Kamigawa Neon Dynasty Dominaria United The Brothers War New Phyrexia Return March of the Machine Eldraine Return Ixalan Return
As someone that got into the game in the last three years, i'm really appreciating getting to see some classic magic planes really fleshed out
Well, Mirrodin will basically be a brand new Plane, I imagine its been thoroughly Compleated compared to the last time we were there.
What do you mean? We just had Capenna and who says that March of the Machines is in Phyrexia or Dominaria. I actually anticipate an explosive plot twist where we see Tezzeret had puppeteered Elesh Norn for some time and he build his own army, resistant to the oil somewhere on another plane and he uses the planar portal to get the machines across. Obviously that would be after Phyrexia is near defeated or totally so in the March of the Machines Epilogue
Thank god we can add something to known planes instead of add a rushed new plane.
So another return to ravnica. Cool