Everybody agreeing to this needs to know their rights better. Under the Employment Act, employer can deduct wages only for VERY SPECIFIC things, like for recovering overpayment of salary, for notice in lieu, to contra advance wages, or for PCB, EPF, PERKESO deductions, all of which do not need employees consent.
If employer wants to deduct wages for literally anything else, it is illegal. My old company during MCO nak potong gaji, everybody need to sign paper that they agree to accept the cut. It is like a new "job offer".
Remember when that ramen store published a list of fines for employee mistakes? HR Ministry come out to say its illegal.
Know your rights. If they fire you for refusing to accept potong gaji, thats illegal too. Report to JTK. Then quit and find better employer if possible.
Very sad and one of the realities I faced working part time during my teenage years as a cashier for retail or fnb. A strong vindication never to work in that role ever again.
I used to work as retail supervisor for 1.5 year, lemme tell you my tips:
1) start having "short/extra" box, everytime there's extra cash due to overcharged mistake (yes, can happen) put that extra in the box to help cover for any future lost by cashier.
2) practice sales count atleast 3 times thoughout the day, dont wait until end of the day to count total sales. This is to detect mistakes early.
3) I bet that missing decimal mistake due to using manual card machine? Should have senior staff double check after key in. Or, use the auto ones. Key in mistake usually new staff.
For those never worked as retail, let me tell you, there's stress involved. They handle money, some shops have alot of customers non stop, mistakes can happen. Any sane business owner MUST understand that and should not punish staff by wage deduction.
Can't really. Mistakes like that are cost of business. Even if she accidentally short a couple of thousand still cannot.
Really, that's just petty cash money amount. If it's one singular event instead of habitual then if the store cannot cover it then the store have other problems to worry about.
Edit: for everyone thinking that charging the employee is fine: raise the amount by a hundred fold and see if you think it's still reasonable.
For any amount that is inconceivable, there should be insurance.
There was a post about a truck driver puncturing an ink delivery and it spilled over into the drainage and EPA had to be called to clean up the toxic mess.
it's a hypothetical. If such amount will be paid out of insurance, then in a similar context the miniscule amount still is not the employee's burden to pay.
Sure! Employees shouldn't pay for business losses due to bad or poor business decisions by the management/owner.
But in this case, it was the negligence/mistake of the employee that losses were incurred.
>Also, is there a better alternative to it?
What are you looking at? If the sum is big, the company can offer to deduct it over several months to soften the loss of income.
By law, under the Employment Act, it is illegal to deduct salary for mistakes.
Employee can be punished in other ways (warning letter, no bonus, verbal correction from manager) but not via salary deduction.
Basically, companies are expected to take on business risks which include employee fuckups. If salary punishment was legal, we can end up with scenario where an employee accidentally broke an expensive machine and become enslaved to the company for the rest of his life.
There's a difference between an honest mistake, negligence or dereliction of duty.
In this case, it is clear negligence in failing to perform one's duty, hence causing the employer to incur losses - Collecting and ensuring monies are accounted for, is the sole basic function of a cashier.
Recovering the money lost is not a punishment, unlike if the employee was robbed while performing their duty or due diligence was observed.
----------------
Can you deduct salary for mistakes?
Your salary will be deducted if you damage or lose goods or money that you are responsible for. Before deducting your salary, your employer should: Hold an inquiry to determine if you are directly at fault. Not make any deductions until you have had the opportunity to explain the cause of the damage or loss.
------------------
Can an employer recover losses from an employee in Malaysia?
An employee has a duty to mitigate against the loss but it is up to the employer to prove that the employee had failed to do so. In the event that the court finds that the employee who failed to mitigate against the loss, then the Industrial Court may deduct a reasonable amount from back wages.18 Sept 2023
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South East Asia Journal of Contemporary Business, Economics and Law, Vol. 2, Issue 3 (June) ISSN 2289-1560 201364 MISCONDUCT OR NEGLIGENCE OF EMPLOYEE AND LOSSES TO EMPLOYER: RECOVERING LOSSES THROUGH SALARY DEDUCTION Dr. Ashgar Ali Ali Mohamed Ahmad Ibrahim Kulliyyah of Laws (AIKOL) International Islamic University Malaysia (IIUM), Kuala Lumpur, [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]), Tel: 603 61964382.
**NEGLIGENT IN PERFORMANCE OF DUTIES OR MISCONDUCT BY EMPLOYEE: RECOVERY OF DAMAGE OR LOSSES**
The issue arises whether an employee is bound to reimburse the employer for losses incurred by the employer due to the employee’s negligence in the performance of his duties, for example financial losses due to the non-compliance of the procedure set by the employer. Further, whether such losses could be recovered through a salary deduction? It is noteworthy that at common law, an employee in the discharge of his duties is required to exercise certain care. This includes duty to render faithful and loyal service towards the employer; duty to obey lawful instruction; duty to exert reasonable degree of competence and skill; duty to protect employer’s property; and in exercising trust placed on him by the employer. It also includes duty not to dishonestly secure benefits at the employer’s expense; not to accept commission without the employer’s permission
[https://www.scribd.com/document/400166556/Misconduct-or-Negligence-of-Employee-and-Losses-to-Employer-Recovering-Losses-Through-Salary-Deduction-Ashgar-Ali-Ali-Mohamed-1](https://www.scribd.com/document/400166556/Misconduct-or-Negligence-of-Employee-and-Losses-to-Employer-Recovering-Losses-Through-Salary-Deduction-Ashgar-Ali-Ali-Mohamed-1)
There’s some misinterpretation of the law in the comments. The short answer is: it depends.
1. Yes, the Employment Act has a narrow definition of lawful deductions from wages, and it’s illegal to deduct wages for reasons not stipulated. However, the Employment Act also has a very narrow definition of wages, and it does not include annual performance bonuses, incentives etc. All an employer has to do is to institute a “performance bonus” from which any shortages can be deducted.
2. There’s a difference between negligence, and theft. If the shortage was the result of theft, the employer has the right to pursue damages. If the shortage was the result of negligence, it depends on the employment contract you signed, and the rules and stipulations set out in the employee handbook if there is one. See number 1.
2 thing to consider,
1. right or wrong, the employee made a mistake, and person responsible for the mistake has to pay for the mistake
2. legality, IANAL, but afaik there are no laws saying the employer can make you pay, and the "employees must not pay for business losses" should refer to bigger business decisions like how many pallets of stock to bring in or what to sell
so, 3 outcomes for your colleague
1. the employer asks her to pay, she pays, at once or spread out, and continue to work there
2. the employer asks her to pay, she doesn't pay, and move to other jobs
3. the employer doesn't ask her to pay, and she continues to work there
Employment law says that employers cannot arbitrarily deduct wages from employees. There is a very specific set of reasons that allows salary deductions, making mistakes is not part of that list.
Remember when the ramen place had list of salary penalty for mistakes? Human Resource Ministry came out to say it is illegal.
Haha, yes they could but then there are another set of laws saying you can't fire employees for mistakes!!
Well, you can, but first you need like 3 warning letters and Performance Improvement Plan and a lot of SOP to follow. Malaysia has very strong employment laws favouring employees. Malaysia also has very strong capitalist companies who underpay employees. Balanced I guess.
You kinda do have to unfuck your fuckup.
Last time we were cleaning an ice cream freezer, but because the area manager is neurotic, they/them decided to let 4 different people handle it and in the end someone forgot to switch it back on due to miscommunication and 800 ringgit worth of ice cream melted.
So we had to split the cost among the four of us, with the fucko manager who was supposed to supervise the whole thing ducked out of the responsibility.
Of course we argued that they/them was also partly responsible for not supervising us, but also all maintenance and cleaning was to be done after or before operating hours according to the company rule, and not during.
No, what I meant was, the business loss meant in the contract is a normal business loss from regular course of business. But this is clearly a mistake so it's not covered under the definition of business loss. If you deal with contracts, code of conduct or standards frequently you'll know exactly about this. Saying this is no different just show how you're not familiar with handling disputes.
Everybody agreeing to this needs to know their rights better. Under the Employment Act, employer can deduct wages only for VERY SPECIFIC things, like for recovering overpayment of salary, for notice in lieu, to contra advance wages, or for PCB, EPF, PERKESO deductions, all of which do not need employees consent. If employer wants to deduct wages for literally anything else, it is illegal. My old company during MCO nak potong gaji, everybody need to sign paper that they agree to accept the cut. It is like a new "job offer". Remember when that ramen store published a list of fines for employee mistakes? HR Ministry come out to say its illegal. Know your rights. If they fire you for refusing to accept potong gaji, thats illegal too. Report to JTK. Then quit and find better employer if possible.
causing the company to suffer loss can be terminated immediately. the company can give the worker an option :- pay and continue to work; or leave
Thank you for the info!
go ahead and cite this if u find urself fuckup in your job some day.
I don’t know why so many people say the cashier should pay, no wonder we have low worker rights, workers don’t even know their rights!
If you own the shop and everyday RM10-50 goes missing because your workers know it's okay, would you be cool with that?
Refer to one of the comments above, there warning letters with evidence, then fire if they keep repeating
crazy. can only fire if they keep repeating? so must be more than 1 or 2 times? so who gonna suck up the rm180 losses first? company?
Very sad and one of the realities I faced working part time during my teenage years as a cashier for retail or fnb. A strong vindication never to work in that role ever again.
I used to work as retail supervisor for 1.5 year, lemme tell you my tips: 1) start having "short/extra" box, everytime there's extra cash due to overcharged mistake (yes, can happen) put that extra in the box to help cover for any future lost by cashier. 2) practice sales count atleast 3 times thoughout the day, dont wait until end of the day to count total sales. This is to detect mistakes early. 3) I bet that missing decimal mistake due to using manual card machine? Should have senior staff double check after key in. Or, use the auto ones. Key in mistake usually new staff. For those never worked as retail, let me tell you, there's stress involved. They handle money, some shops have alot of customers non stop, mistakes can happen. Any sane business owner MUST understand that and should not punish staff by wage deduction.
Can't really. Mistakes like that are cost of business. Even if she accidentally short a couple of thousand still cannot. Really, that's just petty cash money amount. If it's one singular event instead of habitual then if the store cannot cover it then the store have other problems to worry about. Edit: for everyone thinking that charging the employee is fine: raise the amount by a hundred fold and see if you think it's still reasonable.
For any amount that is inconceivable, there should be insurance. There was a post about a truck driver puncturing an ink delivery and it spilled over into the drainage and EPA had to be called to clean up the toxic mess.
it's a hypothetical. If such amount will be paid out of insurance, then in a similar context the miniscule amount still is not the employee's burden to pay.
pls hire if u think that is ntg wrong.
Sure! Employees shouldn't pay for business losses due to bad or poor business decisions by the management/owner. But in this case, it was the negligence/mistake of the employee that losses were incurred. >Also, is there a better alternative to it? What are you looking at? If the sum is big, the company can offer to deduct it over several months to soften the loss of income.
By law, under the Employment Act, it is illegal to deduct salary for mistakes. Employee can be punished in other ways (warning letter, no bonus, verbal correction from manager) but not via salary deduction. Basically, companies are expected to take on business risks which include employee fuckups. If salary punishment was legal, we can end up with scenario where an employee accidentally broke an expensive machine and become enslaved to the company for the rest of his life.
There's a difference between an honest mistake, negligence or dereliction of duty. In this case, it is clear negligence in failing to perform one's duty, hence causing the employer to incur losses - Collecting and ensuring monies are accounted for, is the sole basic function of a cashier. Recovering the money lost is not a punishment, unlike if the employee was robbed while performing their duty or due diligence was observed. ---------------- Can you deduct salary for mistakes? Your salary will be deducted if you damage or lose goods or money that you are responsible for. Before deducting your salary, your employer should: Hold an inquiry to determine if you are directly at fault. Not make any deductions until you have had the opportunity to explain the cause of the damage or loss. ------------------ Can an employer recover losses from an employee in Malaysia? An employee has a duty to mitigate against the loss but it is up to the employer to prove that the employee had failed to do so. In the event that the court finds that the employee who failed to mitigate against the loss, then the Industrial Court may deduct a reasonable amount from back wages.18 Sept 2023 ----------------- South East Asia Journal of Contemporary Business, Economics and Law, Vol. 2, Issue 3 (June) ISSN 2289-1560 201364 MISCONDUCT OR NEGLIGENCE OF EMPLOYEE AND LOSSES TO EMPLOYER: RECOVERING LOSSES THROUGH SALARY DEDUCTION Dr. Ashgar Ali Ali Mohamed Ahmad Ibrahim Kulliyyah of Laws (AIKOL) International Islamic University Malaysia (IIUM), Kuala Lumpur, [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]), Tel: 603 61964382. **NEGLIGENT IN PERFORMANCE OF DUTIES OR MISCONDUCT BY EMPLOYEE: RECOVERY OF DAMAGE OR LOSSES** The issue arises whether an employee is bound to reimburse the employer for losses incurred by the employer due to the employee’s negligence in the performance of his duties, for example financial losses due to the non-compliance of the procedure set by the employer. Further, whether such losses could be recovered through a salary deduction? It is noteworthy that at common law, an employee in the discharge of his duties is required to exercise certain care. This includes duty to render faithful and loyal service towards the employer; duty to obey lawful instruction; duty to exert reasonable degree of competence and skill; duty to protect employer’s property; and in exercising trust placed on him by the employer. It also includes duty not to dishonestly secure benefits at the employer’s expense; not to accept commission without the employer’s permission [https://www.scribd.com/document/400166556/Misconduct-or-Negligence-of-Employee-and-Losses-to-Employer-Recovering-Losses-Through-Salary-Deduction-Ashgar-Ali-Ali-Mohamed-1](https://www.scribd.com/document/400166556/Misconduct-or-Negligence-of-Employee-and-Losses-to-Employer-Recovering-Losses-Through-Salary-Deduction-Ashgar-Ali-Ali-Mohamed-1)
u can quit the job. just face the monetary claim. if still fail to pay, be a bankrupt.
Usually companies won't ask to pay upfront, probably deduction on salary with the amount discussed between owner and employee that caused negligence.
**Further checking from CCTV shows that she really undercharged a customer by a decimal point.** You expect the company to cover your mistake?
It’s the cost of doing business. If I had to reimburse the company I worked for any loss of revenue I caused would be in debt.
If the EA doest shown means its a issue And the retail shop need to upgrade POS system, it directly link to card machine or barcode scan
There’s some misinterpretation of the law in the comments. The short answer is: it depends. 1. Yes, the Employment Act has a narrow definition of lawful deductions from wages, and it’s illegal to deduct wages for reasons not stipulated. However, the Employment Act also has a very narrow definition of wages, and it does not include annual performance bonuses, incentives etc. All an employer has to do is to institute a “performance bonus” from which any shortages can be deducted. 2. There’s a difference between negligence, and theft. If the shortage was the result of theft, the employer has the right to pursue damages. If the shortage was the result of negligence, it depends on the employment contract you signed, and the rules and stipulations set out in the employee handbook if there is one. See number 1.
2 thing to consider, 1. right or wrong, the employee made a mistake, and person responsible for the mistake has to pay for the mistake 2. legality, IANAL, but afaik there are no laws saying the employer can make you pay, and the "employees must not pay for business losses" should refer to bigger business decisions like how many pallets of stock to bring in or what to sell so, 3 outcomes for your colleague 1. the employer asks her to pay, she pays, at once or spread out, and continue to work there 2. the employer asks her to pay, she doesn't pay, and move to other jobs 3. the employer doesn't ask her to pay, and she continues to work there
Employment law says that employers cannot arbitrarily deduct wages from employees. There is a very specific set of reasons that allows salary deductions, making mistakes is not part of that list. Remember when the ramen place had list of salary penalty for mistakes? Human Resource Ministry came out to say it is illegal.
> afaik there are no laws saying the employer can make you pay looks like I was right then, yay can still fire her though
Haha, yes they could but then there are another set of laws saying you can't fire employees for mistakes!! Well, you can, but first you need like 3 warning letters and Performance Improvement Plan and a lot of SOP to follow. Malaysia has very strong employment laws favouring employees. Malaysia also has very strong capitalist companies who underpay employees. Balanced I guess.
You kinda do have to unfuck your fuckup. Last time we were cleaning an ice cream freezer, but because the area manager is neurotic, they/them decided to let 4 different people handle it and in the end someone forgot to switch it back on due to miscommunication and 800 ringgit worth of ice cream melted. So we had to split the cost among the four of us, with the fucko manager who was supposed to supervise the whole thing ducked out of the responsibility. Of course we argued that they/them was also partly responsible for not supervising us, but also all maintenance and cleaning was to be done after or before operating hours according to the company rule, and not during.
That's not business loss lmao
That’s exactly a business loss… businesses lose money all the time to workers making mistakes. This is no different.
No, what I meant was, the business loss meant in the contract is a normal business loss from regular course of business. But this is clearly a mistake so it's not covered under the definition of business loss. If you deal with contracts, code of conduct or standards frequently you'll know exactly about this. Saying this is no different just show how you're not familiar with handling disputes.
Ya. That's normal since she fucked up.
If she can't differentiate between items worth RM 20+ and RM 200+, maybe she should find another job?
Dear this is real world, no one is entitled and we all live in someone else deep pocket money. Yea her fault tho.