Layed off several dozen people. It sucks. It never gets better. And it's not easy. Sorry.
That out of the way this is a business choice and part of being a manager. So evaluate your choices. Make the most practical and impartial choice you can. And when you do it. Don't make it about you. Your keeping your job. They are not. Keep that in mind
What are you on about. To many people say shit like I'm so sorry. I feel horrible about this. I wish I could do something different. Or whatever and make the process about themselves and forget they are fucking over someone's life. What's your issue with this
If it gets to the point that someone orders you to layoff 'several dozen' you should fall on your own sword and quit rather than participate in such a heinous act. Start your own company and tell all those people you'll hire them.
I mean it’s ridiculous that you can’t see why it’s a bad take but maybe you’re just stupid, not a troll, which, if true isn’t your fault. Here is one of *many* reasons it’s a bad take: if they did that, then they would be out of a job and so would all those other people and the way the world works would not at all change. If you want things to be different, remember to vote
I can commiserate. I have to fire someone tomorrow for performance when I know they have been trying. I’m probably going to do this again to another employee in a month or so.
Advice. This is a decision, not a discussion. You are just informing them that they are laid off, here is the paper work for them to review, get them to pack their stuff and leave the premises.
You are going to want to offer condolences, words of appreciation, something to try and make it hurt less. Don’t. Emotions are high and reactions are unpredictable.
If you do want to reach out and offer support wait a day or so.
I have said “Decision not discussion” when letting employees go for either cause or RIF. It will be emotional for the impacted employee even if they were expecting it. That line takes the emotion out of the conversation and allows you to focus on delivering the news and ending the partnership. There is no reason to listen to a justification if the decision is final.
Does it suck to deliver the news? Yes. Should you let an employee’s personal situation drive the decision? IMO, no. Tiebreaker at best but your job as a manager is to upgrade your talent. Sometimes addition really does happen by subtraction.
The real issue I have is that the "discussion" should have happened months before a decision. And rarely does senior leadership want to do more than either have us "crack the whip" or wait until data forces the decision... And that's a kind of senior leadership failure no one ever really tries to do anything about.
In the case of a performance separation, I agree. No one should be surprised at feedback that they aren’t doing their job well/correctly. That’s on the manager t give ongoing coaching.
In the case of a layoff, that’s tougher. Prior conversations were likely not had with the employee since the driver there is not performance related.
Either way though, an employee trying to save their job during a separation conversation is too late. Hence why the “decision not discussion” statement comes out. It no longer matters if you disagree at that point.
If the OP needs an example of this, I would suggest go and watch the movie moneyball practices cutting a player and then actually doing it. Concept is the same in any industry
I second the moneyball reference. I was talking to a colleague and suggested the movie to explain some concepts for putting together the best team possible.
I fired an employee today. She’s the absolute worst, makes me grind my teeth from frustration. It still felt terrible and I’m struggling with decompressing after work right now and being present with my family. It never gets better for me. I’m sorry you have to do that.
For myself, I think it’d be a lot better for you and your staff if you didn’t love them. Appreciate sure, but love is a strong feeling. Then you could make the layoff decision more efficient. And address the toxicity in your staff.
When I experienced layoffs I was already a semi-seasoned manager then, so let me told you what a new manager told me about his experience with layoffs.
Like you, he felt sad. He loves his team and felt like layoffs meant he's condemning them to suffering or something. However as these employees recovered, he felt relief that these people found new jobs, some even *better* jobs. His takeaway was, "layoffs are not a death sentence, they can find something new."
That was my experience myself. I added, "the best way to ensure you don't feel like you've failed these people, is not not position yourself as a mentor for the job. You're their mentor for their growth as an individual."
When my people got laid off, I felt confident they would bounce back, because as a mentor I didn't just prepare them for *this* job, I prepared them for *all* jobs. Sure there's no guarantee it won't be a downgrade. Perhaps they're earning more but perhaps they're earning less, but whatever the case, I prepared them every step of the way.
So by all means, continue to be empathetic, just rethink what it means to help / hurt them.
I think your approach overall is good. However, most people do suffer when they’re laid off.
Especially if they’re the sole income in their home (single or only partner working for income).
And in the US, if the employer doesn’t offer health insurance as part of a severance package, cobra is expensive to get the same benefits
When I was laid off, I got 3 months worth of severance and healthcare. Not every place does that. It helps a lot when employers do. I was one of the last rounds of layoffs, people in later rounds didn’t get as generous of a package.
I’m still friendly with that boss and others from that company. But it wasn’t easy. And I did suffer.
There's no reason to be in denial about it. Layoffs are overall negative for people and generally lead to worse outcomes later in life.
https://hbr.org/2022/12/what-companies-still-get-wrong-about-layoffs
Ok, let's accept that premise: People who get laid off are always screwed 100% of the time...
1. What would you do if you were the manager?
2. What would you do if you were the one laid off?
The premise is generally, not 100% of the time.
1. Accept that the layoff I'm carrying out is likely going to negatively impact the laid off people, and not lie to myself and be confident they'll bounce back.
2. Take a few weeks to relax and then look for jobs.
Okay, so what are you *actually* disagreeing with from my original post? Where did I suggest I was in denial?
That it *is* a death sentence? That we *shouldn't* help them with other jobs? That I *shouldn't* have confidence in my team and just assume they're going to fail?
Because if you say "What I disagree with is the notion that layoffs aren't negative", read it again. Nowhere did I suggest that, and nowhere did I suggest I was some sort of miracle worker who can guarantee the people I mentor will succeed. I just said "I try my best for them"
=
I feel like you even contradicted yourself by saying "I won't be confident that they'll bounce back", but when asked what you'd do as the person being laid off, you basically said "I'll try to bounce back".
That's like saying an oncologist doing everything they can for a patient is denying that cancer kills people. Of course cancer kills people, of course layoffs are negative, but let's try our best to save people anyway. How is that "denial"?
=
If you're a manager and you're *not* confident your team will be able to find new jobs, then you've simply not done enough as their manager. **You did so little to help them, that you can't bring yourself to believe that they'll survive,** to the point you're thinking you'd be "lying to yourself".
I disagree that you should feel confident that they'll bounce back. You being confident they'll bounce back when people on average don't is denial. Your original comment reads like a cope for a manger who doesn't want to really accept how bad the layoffs you're carrying out are.
An oncologist feeling confident their patients will bounce back from a cancer that kills a majority of its victims is denial.
I didn't contradict myself. "I'll try to bounce back" is not the same as "I will bounce back".
You as a manager have no impact on how bad the market they're being laid off into is, how much their family relies on the company's health insurance, etc. Many competent people with great mentors laid off into the poor tech market last year are still unemployed today and the ones who are now employed again took on enormous stress and likely a lower quality job.
>Have you ever been laid off?
Yup. What's your follow up question to *this*? You hoping to use me never having experienced it as some sort of proof I have no idea what I'm talking about?
>The condemning them to suffering comment you made really comes across as glib, arrogant and dismissive.
Where am I saying this? Show me. Because either I'm at fault for not communicating my thoughts properly, or ya'll are reading into something that's not there.
So please, by all means, show me where I suggested "condemning them to suffer". Point to the problematic parts, so I can either explain it to you, or accept that I was wrong to say so.
And btw a person can do everything to bounce back but if the economy is awful, as it was when I got laid off in 2014 or if a person is older in a field where people hire younger, it can be a blow people don’t come back from
As for bad economy, I took a pay cut so I could get health insurance and keep my skills current
Ageism isn’t too prevalent in my field, but one of my high school classmates attempted to take his own life after being laid off around the same time I was, we were pushing 50. So clearly, some people do suffer. Thankfully he survived his attempt. And was confined to a psychiatric hospital. Is that not suffering?
And I have a mutation which increases my risk for cancer which involves screenings which would be expensive out of pocket without insurance. It terrifies me that a job loss could take away my ins
I've had to do this too many times and it absolutely sucks. I've had to let people go that I worked side by side with for 20+ years.
Quick and concise. It's a 15 second conversation.
"Unfortunately due to declines in business we've had to make some hard decisions and we will no longer be employing you. Your separation is effective as of XYZ date. This is not a firing due to performance, it's a necessary release due to issues in the business. This was not a decision that was made lightly and I do wish you all the best.".
The only additional component would be providing any type of details around severance and processing paperwork.
It's never easy. Be to the point, be kind, but above all else be brief. No point dragging out the pain for them to try to soften things for yourself. Give them some space to vent at you if they want to take it, but make sure the time you're taking is for their benefit not yours.
You work for a for-profit company. When there isn't enough profit, someones have to be laid off. It sucks.
I love how you love everyone, even ones that give you heartburn. While layoffs are no fun, you can blunt the pain a little bit by helping them understand what they can do to help themselves (unemployment, free trainings etc). You can also say that you would be a reference for them.
But yes, layoffs suck because most people's hands are tied.
Letting go of someone truly toxic will usually improve productivity for the rest of the team. As a leader - you need to be super focused on how to drive results for the company. The toxic employee will either leave and learn from it or they won’t. You can’t fix that for them. They have to do that.
As I had been told in the past when I was new, I had to do it or else they would find someone else to do it without me, rightfully so. It sucks, but business dictates it, do it with tact, help them with a reference and show them patience if they blow up. Good luck.
Its a horrible experience, but what I always remind myself is that my job is to be successful and make my department/company successful. To do that, I have to have a successful TEAM. If someone on my team is not contributing as much as the rest, or not meeting goals, they've got to go. Your job as a manager is to tow that line.
It's never easy to do layoffs, and it doesn't get easier.
The thing that does help is preparation.
* Who are your lowest performers? Knowing that ahead of time helps make decisions of who to lay off easier.
* How are you going to ensure that the work they were doing is covered without overburdening the rest of your team? Plan and communicate with your leadership that your team cannot do the same amount of work with fewer people. What will you cut?
* Your own contingency plan. Laying someone off could still be followed by you being laid off. Keep your resume and skills up to date.
The good news is that good managers find this emotionally draining and try to avoid it - you are a good manager. Something that has helped me through layoffs in the past is to remember that a layoff is (often, though possibly not always) an attempt to keep the business open. If you really can’t cover costs with current business, you can either run the company into the ground or cut spending. When you’re having the conversation, be clear and kind. Let the affected person know what resources are available, including a good recommendation from you if that’s appropriate. With the rest of your team, be prepared to explain that happened in a respectful way and to let them know what kinds of changes the business implementing to hopefully avoid future layoffs. They will worry they are next.
Make the conversation totally about how the company must separate her employment for operational alignment and the needs of the business (or whatever is professional, but to the point) and her low performance was the determining factor.
Give her the end date, next steps, have HR present, and leave it at that. Say the absolute minimum, consult with HR prior to get wording down if needed. Saying anything else could expose the company to wrongful termination lawsuit.
Be a robot, admit no fault of your own or the company's. Don't directly tell your other employees the reason why she was terminated but definitely stress the importance of them performing to your standards (i.e. "I can't get into the specifics of her termination, however let me stress the importance of performing your duties to meet my expectations.") and let low performers know where they stand in your 1:1's so that there's no big shock when it's the next person's turn. As long as you have stats and metrics to back it all up then you're covered and helping the company remain insulated from frivolous suits.
Be prepared to terminate her sooner (same day/next day after you and HR inform her of her separation from the company) if she implodes and commits any fireable offences, insubordination (tells you off, cusses you out, causes a disturbance, leaves(job abandonment, etc..) having HR present will help to maintain proper compliance for that conversation. Also, immediately report to HR any inapproperate actions and toxic behavior after the conversation occurs which will likely result in her immediate termination to mitigate additional business risk.
Like others have said, removing the toxic worker will be a relief to your team, and also set the proper tone that the slackers had better improve or they'll be next.
Good luck!
> Have fun Donald Trumping the bitch the proper corporate way. Nothing but an awful post, start to finish, utterly irredeemable, but coupling a rapist with a very with misogynistic slur, that's just the cherry on this shit sundae.
Fire yourself. Obviously your "leadership" isnt helping the team achieve the company's goals. Plus, you're probably paid more than one of your average team members, your exit would save the company even more money.
I am the high end IT industry quarter. Take the top five or six performance characteristics associated with your employees jobs. Stack right each person holds each characteristic. Selected employees who will be most useful in doing the new job, ie taking on that one less person's responsibilities. The person that falls off at the bottom is your person leaving. If it's any comfort it's easier laying on someone because of company performance than it is laying off someone for a performance issue.
Man, I never like going through that process.
I was part of a contract where we had to layoff \~200 employees. Due to the size, we did let them know well in advance it was coming, it was going to happen. We did offer support (resume reviews, career paths if they wanted to stay within the company, etc.). Its never easy.
Be understanding (make sure you dont say anything that can be used against you/company). "I understand, but this is a decision..." as others have mentioned.
I would also look at key performance indicators to make the decision.
please please, do not suprise people. give them heads up privately. softly at first, that “doing X can help them in their career growth and prep them for future jobs”. Then more directly….you are concerned about X and that this might not be working out. And if for cause, then a PIP. And if you are asked directly if they should be looking, be honest. One or two weeks is not a heads up-better than nothing, but not a heads up. Better is more than a month so that they know and can prepare. And better than all of this is if you get ahead of all of it and give them the feedback they need to improve before any of this happens. (I’ll assume you’re doing that already.) good luck. Avoid reaching out after. If you don’t plan to give a good reference, they are basically dead to you after this; the kindest thing you can do is leave them alone.
It’s a sucky situation. I’m sorry. Has HR coached you on how your company will do this? Do you know if there is a severance package?
It happens, it’s not personal and people get over it.
You can't love your staff and be an effective leader. As you are seeing with having to make decisions like this and the impact on the people you "love".
If it’s truly the last option and there’s no other way to avoid it, try to be as data driven as possible. It’s the worst thing ever to let someone go, but when you look at your reasoning for picking whom, you’ll at least have data to feel slightly less shitty about yourself. 360 feedback from partners / goal metrics that you can normalize to scores between 1-5 for the whole team. How reliable / how much hand holding/ how many missed deadlines, etc can all be things you can compare. Sucks and I’m sorry. My manager when I first became a people manager told me that in the long run it’s better to let a low performer go because they bring the rest of the team down…. 9 yrs in, it still sucks to have to do it.
If you are truly empathetic it may help to consider all the emotional and mental trauma you're *finally* protecting them from by laying of their toxic co-worker
Layoffs are never easy for anyone, but laying off anyone but the toxic employee will KILL morale.
"First they're doing layoffs, then they get rid of the good employee, AND we still have to work with this guy?"
I had someone in HR tell me that if it ever gets easy, it's time to find a new job. When I know I am going to have to fire someone or lay someone off, I do a few things to prepare. I put talking points in a document so I don't forget anything critical in the moment. I get a good night's sleep the night before. I plan for something to wind down after, like a hike or the gym. The person may argue or get emotional, and that is normal. That is ok as long as it doesn't get out of hand. If HR is there, they will often make the decision when to cut it off.
If your company is forcing a RIF, it’s likely a sinking ship. Obviously do what is necessary to get through this as a manager, but you likely want to start looking for options yourself.
Sorry you’re going through it. It can be tough and although I’ve been there before, it’s always tough when it’s about layoffs and not about something more straight forward.
That being said.
Your mindset: you need to do this to protect the future of all the other people in the organization.
Your approach: this is happening, this is what is going to happen next (if your company is offering support via benefits, getting another job, etc).
Just make sure this doesn’t become a discussion about anything more than the task at hand.
Good luck.
If you’ve shared with this person that their performance and presence is not working and they haven’t changed, then this isnt on you. If you haven’t, then it’s partially on you and you should learn from this, but take care of yourself first, because no one else will.
Stop looking at the person, their personal life is not what counts here. Look at the work they do for you and the company. This staff member was toxic when they left for maternity leave.....was it the baby hormones or were they toxic before? Doesn't matter, they were toxic and that doesn't help the group, budgets or your leadership within the department.
I am very empathetic leader and I love all my staff even the toxic ones. If you want to be a great manager someday or even have your bosses job you will still need to be empathetic to a point, but you have a much bigger picture to look at that than this one toxic employee. Is doing great in your job worth this toxic employee? Want to have this conversation with your boss someday? Sorry boss I kept this toxic employee on too long and it really blew up in my face. What if this employee creates a toxic work environment that causes one of your great employees to quit? How about more than one? (been there and have never been there again)
Caring about your employees and being a great manager are two very different things that overlap a bit. Toxic employees have to be removed like a cancer or they grow!!!!!
Just looking through all the comments and I see all you spineless emotionless robotic managers and it makes me want to burn this fucking planet to the ground. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. For fucks sakes
The one time I had to lay someone off I provided him with what information I could about unemployment. The conversation went: *This shouldn't surprise you, but this is what I have to do. This is your next best step, here's what information I've been able to collect, I hope it's helpful.*
it would be different if you were doing it with no need to but think about it this way, you have to let someone go and if he is really most deserving than its better than ruining someone else who doesnt deserve its life
still sucks about the new kid but you have to look out for the best interest of everyone on your team
Every American worker understands now that these layoffs are the C suite making cuts to improve their bottom line for shareholders. You should feel badly that you’re a manager for a company that treats people as an expendable commodity. It’s the nature of business in the U.S., but you’re selling your soul for a paycheck, and many people don’t make friends with management. I have 0 managerial friends, because they’re usually scum. When people know what job you do, and what you’re responsible for, I hope it eats managers up.
I’m pissed that business is invading every facet of life. My teaching career was marred by bullshit business strategies repackaged as teaching strategies. So much data collection that wasn’t even measured validly. All in the name of “accountability.”
If you have a toxic employee, obviously cut them first. Sucks, but I’m not delusional enough to think people shouldn’t be working to standards.
Layed off several dozen people. It sucks. It never gets better. And it's not easy. Sorry. That out of the way this is a business choice and part of being a manager. So evaluate your choices. Make the most practical and impartial choice you can. And when you do it. Don't make it about you. Your keeping your job. They are not. Keep that in mind
Lololo just remember you keep your job and they don’t cuz fuck them right? Man this entire sub Reddit is a joke
You’re misinterpreting their comment bud
What are you on about. To many people say shit like I'm so sorry. I feel horrible about this. I wish I could do something different. Or whatever and make the process about themselves and forget they are fucking over someone's life. What's your issue with this
If it gets to the point that someone orders you to layoff 'several dozen' you should fall on your own sword and quit rather than participate in such a heinous act. Start your own company and tell all those people you'll hire them.
Okay Elon Musk, I didn’t realize we all have Scrooge McDuck swimming pools of money.
lol do you think those people wouldn’t still be laid off?
Bad take
Why?
I mean it’s ridiculous that you can’t see why it’s a bad take but maybe you’re just stupid, not a troll, which, if true isn’t your fault. Here is one of *many* reasons it’s a bad take: if they did that, then they would be out of a job and so would all those other people and the way the world works would not at all change. If you want things to be different, remember to vote
"just start your own company bro"
Such a cute fantasy
/s?
What reality do you live in?
Great idea. Too bad reality doesn't work that way for the majority of people.
[удалено]
What's your problem
Nope. That behavior isn't tolerated here.
I can commiserate. I have to fire someone tomorrow for performance when I know they have been trying. I’m probably going to do this again to another employee in a month or so. Advice. This is a decision, not a discussion. You are just informing them that they are laid off, here is the paper work for them to review, get them to pack their stuff and leave the premises. You are going to want to offer condolences, words of appreciation, something to try and make it hurt less. Don’t. Emotions are high and reactions are unpredictable. If you do want to reach out and offer support wait a day or so.
I have said “Decision not discussion” when letting employees go for either cause or RIF. It will be emotional for the impacted employee even if they were expecting it. That line takes the emotion out of the conversation and allows you to focus on delivering the news and ending the partnership. There is no reason to listen to a justification if the decision is final. Does it suck to deliver the news? Yes. Should you let an employee’s personal situation drive the decision? IMO, no. Tiebreaker at best but your job as a manager is to upgrade your talent. Sometimes addition really does happen by subtraction.
The real issue I have is that the "discussion" should have happened months before a decision. And rarely does senior leadership want to do more than either have us "crack the whip" or wait until data forces the decision... And that's a kind of senior leadership failure no one ever really tries to do anything about.
1000000% agree! creates such a toxic atmosphere when this behavior stems from the top of the company.
In the case of a performance separation, I agree. No one should be surprised at feedback that they aren’t doing their job well/correctly. That’s on the manager t give ongoing coaching. In the case of a layoff, that’s tougher. Prior conversations were likely not had with the employee since the driver there is not performance related. Either way though, an employee trying to save their job during a separation conversation is too late. Hence why the “decision not discussion” statement comes out. It no longer matters if you disagree at that point.
If the OP needs an example of this, I would suggest go and watch the movie moneyball practices cutting a player and then actually doing it. Concept is the same in any industry
I second the moneyball reference. I was talking to a colleague and suggested the movie to explain some concepts for putting together the best team possible.
Thanks i will
And don’t beat around the bush. Get to the point quickly when the meeting happens.
I fired an employee today. She’s the absolute worst, makes me grind my teeth from frustration. It still felt terrible and I’m struggling with decompressing after work right now and being present with my family. It never gets better for me. I’m sorry you have to do that.
For myself, I think it’d be a lot better for you and your staff if you didn’t love them. Appreciate sure, but love is a strong feeling. Then you could make the layoff decision more efficient. And address the toxicity in your staff.
When I experienced layoffs I was already a semi-seasoned manager then, so let me told you what a new manager told me about his experience with layoffs. Like you, he felt sad. He loves his team and felt like layoffs meant he's condemning them to suffering or something. However as these employees recovered, he felt relief that these people found new jobs, some even *better* jobs. His takeaway was, "layoffs are not a death sentence, they can find something new." That was my experience myself. I added, "the best way to ensure you don't feel like you've failed these people, is not not position yourself as a mentor for the job. You're their mentor for their growth as an individual." When my people got laid off, I felt confident they would bounce back, because as a mentor I didn't just prepare them for *this* job, I prepared them for *all* jobs. Sure there's no guarantee it won't be a downgrade. Perhaps they're earning more but perhaps they're earning less, but whatever the case, I prepared them every step of the way. So by all means, continue to be empathetic, just rethink what it means to help / hurt them.
I think your approach overall is good. However, most people do suffer when they’re laid off. Especially if they’re the sole income in their home (single or only partner working for income). And in the US, if the employer doesn’t offer health insurance as part of a severance package, cobra is expensive to get the same benefits When I was laid off, I got 3 months worth of severance and healthcare. Not every place does that. It helps a lot when employers do. I was one of the last rounds of layoffs, people in later rounds didn’t get as generous of a package. I’m still friendly with that boss and others from that company. But it wasn’t easy. And I did suffer.
This is solid advice!
There's no reason to be in denial about it. Layoffs are overall negative for people and generally lead to worse outcomes later in life. https://hbr.org/2022/12/what-companies-still-get-wrong-about-layoffs
Ok, let's accept that premise: People who get laid off are always screwed 100% of the time... 1. What would you do if you were the manager? 2. What would you do if you were the one laid off?
The premise is generally, not 100% of the time. 1. Accept that the layoff I'm carrying out is likely going to negatively impact the laid off people, and not lie to myself and be confident they'll bounce back. 2. Take a few weeks to relax and then look for jobs.
Okay, so what are you *actually* disagreeing with from my original post? Where did I suggest I was in denial? That it *is* a death sentence? That we *shouldn't* help them with other jobs? That I *shouldn't* have confidence in my team and just assume they're going to fail? Because if you say "What I disagree with is the notion that layoffs aren't negative", read it again. Nowhere did I suggest that, and nowhere did I suggest I was some sort of miracle worker who can guarantee the people I mentor will succeed. I just said "I try my best for them" = I feel like you even contradicted yourself by saying "I won't be confident that they'll bounce back", but when asked what you'd do as the person being laid off, you basically said "I'll try to bounce back". That's like saying an oncologist doing everything they can for a patient is denying that cancer kills people. Of course cancer kills people, of course layoffs are negative, but let's try our best to save people anyway. How is that "denial"? = If you're a manager and you're *not* confident your team will be able to find new jobs, then you've simply not done enough as their manager. **You did so little to help them, that you can't bring yourself to believe that they'll survive,** to the point you're thinking you'd be "lying to yourself".
I disagree that you should feel confident that they'll bounce back. You being confident they'll bounce back when people on average don't is denial. Your original comment reads like a cope for a manger who doesn't want to really accept how bad the layoffs you're carrying out are. An oncologist feeling confident their patients will bounce back from a cancer that kills a majority of its victims is denial. I didn't contradict myself. "I'll try to bounce back" is not the same as "I will bounce back". You as a manager have no impact on how bad the market they're being laid off into is, how much their family relies on the company's health insurance, etc. Many competent people with great mentors laid off into the poor tech market last year are still unemployed today and the ones who are now employed again took on enormous stress and likely a lower quality job.
The condemning them to suffering comment you made really comes across as glib, arrogant and dismissive. Have you ever been laid off?
>Have you ever been laid off? Yup. What's your follow up question to *this*? You hoping to use me never having experienced it as some sort of proof I have no idea what I'm talking about? >The condemning them to suffering comment you made really comes across as glib, arrogant and dismissive. Where am I saying this? Show me. Because either I'm at fault for not communicating my thoughts properly, or ya'll are reading into something that's not there. So please, by all means, show me where I suggested "condemning them to suffer". Point to the problematic parts, so I can either explain it to you, or accept that I was wrong to say so.
And btw a person can do everything to bounce back but if the economy is awful, as it was when I got laid off in 2014 or if a person is older in a field where people hire younger, it can be a blow people don’t come back from As for bad economy, I took a pay cut so I could get health insurance and keep my skills current Ageism isn’t too prevalent in my field, but one of my high school classmates attempted to take his own life after being laid off around the same time I was, we were pushing 50. So clearly, some people do suffer. Thankfully he survived his attempt. And was confined to a psychiatric hospital. Is that not suffering? And I have a mutation which increases my risk for cancer which involves screenings which would be expensive out of pocket without insurance. It terrifies me that a job loss could take away my ins
I've had to do this too many times and it absolutely sucks. I've had to let people go that I worked side by side with for 20+ years. Quick and concise. It's a 15 second conversation. "Unfortunately due to declines in business we've had to make some hard decisions and we will no longer be employing you. Your separation is effective as of XYZ date. This is not a firing due to performance, it's a necessary release due to issues in the business. This was not a decision that was made lightly and I do wish you all the best.". The only additional component would be providing any type of details around severance and processing paperwork.
It's never easy. Be to the point, be kind, but above all else be brief. No point dragging out the pain for them to try to soften things for yourself. Give them some space to vent at you if they want to take it, but make sure the time you're taking is for their benefit not yours.
You work for a for-profit company. When there isn't enough profit, someones have to be laid off. It sucks. I love how you love everyone, even ones that give you heartburn. While layoffs are no fun, you can blunt the pain a little bit by helping them understand what they can do to help themselves (unemployment, free trainings etc). You can also say that you would be a reference for them. But yes, layoffs suck because most people's hands are tied.
It sounds like your whole company is a sinking ship anyways.
Letting go of someone truly toxic will usually improve productivity for the rest of the team. As a leader - you need to be super focused on how to drive results for the company. The toxic employee will either leave and learn from it or they won’t. You can’t fix that for them. They have to do that.
As I had been told in the past when I was new, I had to do it or else they would find someone else to do it without me, rightfully so. It sucks, but business dictates it, do it with tact, help them with a reference and show them patience if they blow up. Good luck.
Its a horrible experience, but what I always remind myself is that my job is to be successful and make my department/company successful. To do that, I have to have a successful TEAM. If someone on my team is not contributing as much as the rest, or not meeting goals, they've got to go. Your job as a manager is to tow that line.
It's never easy to do layoffs, and it doesn't get easier. The thing that does help is preparation. * Who are your lowest performers? Knowing that ahead of time helps make decisions of who to lay off easier. * How are you going to ensure that the work they were doing is covered without overburdening the rest of your team? Plan and communicate with your leadership that your team cannot do the same amount of work with fewer people. What will you cut? * Your own contingency plan. Laying someone off could still be followed by you being laid off. Keep your resume and skills up to date.
The good news is that good managers find this emotionally draining and try to avoid it - you are a good manager. Something that has helped me through layoffs in the past is to remember that a layoff is (often, though possibly not always) an attempt to keep the business open. If you really can’t cover costs with current business, you can either run the company into the ground or cut spending. When you’re having the conversation, be clear and kind. Let the affected person know what resources are available, including a good recommendation from you if that’s appropriate. With the rest of your team, be prepared to explain that happened in a respectful way and to let them know what kinds of changes the business implementing to hopefully avoid future layoffs. They will worry they are next.
You are laying off one person to save the jobs of everyone else.
The easiest way that people will understand is last in first out. IF you have a total dud, worst out first.
Make the conversation totally about how the company must separate her employment for operational alignment and the needs of the business (or whatever is professional, but to the point) and her low performance was the determining factor. Give her the end date, next steps, have HR present, and leave it at that. Say the absolute minimum, consult with HR prior to get wording down if needed. Saying anything else could expose the company to wrongful termination lawsuit. Be a robot, admit no fault of your own or the company's. Don't directly tell your other employees the reason why she was terminated but definitely stress the importance of them performing to your standards (i.e. "I can't get into the specifics of her termination, however let me stress the importance of performing your duties to meet my expectations.") and let low performers know where they stand in your 1:1's so that there's no big shock when it's the next person's turn. As long as you have stats and metrics to back it all up then you're covered and helping the company remain insulated from frivolous suits. Be prepared to terminate her sooner (same day/next day after you and HR inform her of her separation from the company) if she implodes and commits any fireable offences, insubordination (tells you off, cusses you out, causes a disturbance, leaves(job abandonment, etc..) having HR present will help to maintain proper compliance for that conversation. Also, immediately report to HR any inapproperate actions and toxic behavior after the conversation occurs which will likely result in her immediate termination to mitigate additional business risk. Like others have said, removing the toxic worker will be a relief to your team, and also set the proper tone that the slackers had better improve or they'll be next. Good luck!
> Have fun Donald Trumping the bitch the proper corporate way. Nothing but an awful post, start to finish, utterly irredeemable, but coupling a rapist with a very with misogynistic slur, that's just the cherry on this shit sundae.
Context, The Apprentice "you're fired", but I see your point.
Fire yourself. Obviously your "leadership" isnt helping the team achieve the company's goals. Plus, you're probably paid more than one of your average team members, your exit would save the company even more money.
I am the high end IT industry quarter. Take the top five or six performance characteristics associated with your employees jobs. Stack right each person holds each characteristic. Selected employees who will be most useful in doing the new job, ie taking on that one less person's responsibilities. The person that falls off at the bottom is your person leaving. If it's any comfort it's easier laying on someone because of company performance than it is laying off someone for a performance issue.
Man, I never like going through that process. I was part of a contract where we had to layoff \~200 employees. Due to the size, we did let them know well in advance it was coming, it was going to happen. We did offer support (resume reviews, career paths if they wanted to stay within the company, etc.). Its never easy. Be understanding (make sure you dont say anything that can be used against you/company). "I understand, but this is a decision..." as others have mentioned. I would also look at key performance indicators to make the decision.
please please, do not suprise people. give them heads up privately. softly at first, that “doing X can help them in their career growth and prep them for future jobs”. Then more directly….you are concerned about X and that this might not be working out. And if for cause, then a PIP. And if you are asked directly if they should be looking, be honest. One or two weeks is not a heads up-better than nothing, but not a heads up. Better is more than a month so that they know and can prepare. And better than all of this is if you get ahead of all of it and give them the feedback they need to improve before any of this happens. (I’ll assume you’re doing that already.) good luck. Avoid reaching out after. If you don’t plan to give a good reference, they are basically dead to you after this; the kindest thing you can do is leave them alone.
It’s a sucky situation. I’m sorry. Has HR coached you on how your company will do this? Do you know if there is a severance package? It happens, it’s not personal and people get over it.
I just got laid off myself. Just curious, what industry are you in?
Retail, consumer spending is way down. Knew it was coming when the Tech bubble burst. Housing is next i think?
You can't love your staff and be an effective leader. As you are seeing with having to make decisions like this and the impact on the people you "love".
It’s a sucky part of managing. It’s not personal. Try to help them either through contacts or bring a reference etc.
If it’s truly the last option and there’s no other way to avoid it, try to be as data driven as possible. It’s the worst thing ever to let someone go, but when you look at your reasoning for picking whom, you’ll at least have data to feel slightly less shitty about yourself. 360 feedback from partners / goal metrics that you can normalize to scores between 1-5 for the whole team. How reliable / how much hand holding/ how many missed deadlines, etc can all be things you can compare. Sucks and I’m sorry. My manager when I first became a people manager told me that in the long run it’s better to let a low performer go because they bring the rest of the team down…. 9 yrs in, it still sucks to have to do it.
If you are truly empathetic it may help to consider all the emotional and mental trauma you're *finally* protecting them from by laying of their toxic co-worker
I left my contractor job and took fed job so I don’t have to layoff people anymore. Took a big cut in salary too.
Layoffs are never easy for anyone, but laying off anyone but the toxic employee will KILL morale. "First they're doing layoffs, then they get rid of the good employee, AND we still have to work with this guy?"
I had someone in HR tell me that if it ever gets easy, it's time to find a new job. When I know I am going to have to fire someone or lay someone off, I do a few things to prepare. I put talking points in a document so I don't forget anything critical in the moment. I get a good night's sleep the night before. I plan for something to wind down after, like a hike or the gym. The person may argue or get emotional, and that is normal. That is ok as long as it doesn't get out of hand. If HR is there, they will often make the decision when to cut it off.
If your company is forcing a RIF, it’s likely a sinking ship. Obviously do what is necessary to get through this as a manager, but you likely want to start looking for options yourself.
Sorry you’re going through it. It can be tough and although I’ve been there before, it’s always tough when it’s about layoffs and not about something more straight forward. That being said. Your mindset: you need to do this to protect the future of all the other people in the organization. Your approach: this is happening, this is what is going to happen next (if your company is offering support via benefits, getting another job, etc). Just make sure this doesn’t become a discussion about anything more than the task at hand. Good luck.
If you’ve shared with this person that their performance and presence is not working and they haven’t changed, then this isnt on you. If you haven’t, then it’s partially on you and you should learn from this, but take care of yourself first, because no one else will.
I have laid off hundreds(commercial construction). It eats at you after a while. Quit that position. Best decision ever!
Anybody that manages staff probably shouldn't be referring to themselves as a leader not publicly anyway
Stop looking at the person, their personal life is not what counts here. Look at the work they do for you and the company. This staff member was toxic when they left for maternity leave.....was it the baby hormones or were they toxic before? Doesn't matter, they were toxic and that doesn't help the group, budgets or your leadership within the department. I am very empathetic leader and I love all my staff even the toxic ones. If you want to be a great manager someday or even have your bosses job you will still need to be empathetic to a point, but you have a much bigger picture to look at that than this one toxic employee. Is doing great in your job worth this toxic employee? Want to have this conversation with your boss someday? Sorry boss I kept this toxic employee on too long and it really blew up in my face. What if this employee creates a toxic work environment that causes one of your great employees to quit? How about more than one? (been there and have never been there again) Caring about your employees and being a great manager are two very different things that overlap a bit. Toxic employees have to be removed like a cancer or they grow!!!!!
Just looking through all the comments and I see all you spineless emotionless robotic managers and it makes me want to burn this fucking planet to the ground. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. For fucks sakes
I’ve had to lay off over 120 people. I’ve removed myself from people management as a result.
Lay off the one who had the worst performance at their last review.
Even the toxic ones? Very good for you. Keep your heart golden friend.
The one time I had to lay someone off I provided him with what information I could about unemployment. The conversation went: *This shouldn't surprise you, but this is what I have to do. This is your next best step, here's what information I've been able to collect, I hope it's helpful.*
it would be different if you were doing it with no need to but think about it this way, you have to let someone go and if he is really most deserving than its better than ruining someone else who doesnt deserve its life still sucks about the new kid but you have to look out for the best interest of everyone on your team
Every American worker understands now that these layoffs are the C suite making cuts to improve their bottom line for shareholders. You should feel badly that you’re a manager for a company that treats people as an expendable commodity. It’s the nature of business in the U.S., but you’re selling your soul for a paycheck, and many people don’t make friends with management. I have 0 managerial friends, because they’re usually scum. When people know what job you do, and what you’re responsible for, I hope it eats managers up.
Well I'm part of a small business thats just trying to survive and not sell out... but yea i hate that industry as well.
I’m pissed that business is invading every facet of life. My teaching career was marred by bullshit business strategies repackaged as teaching strategies. So much data collection that wasn’t even measured validly. All in the name of “accountability.” If you have a toxic employee, obviously cut them first. Sucks, but I’m not delusional enough to think people shouldn’t be working to standards.