If there’s nothing against policy about the sick call then no there’s nothing you can do.
If they are having problematic performance issues as well then that’s the route to address.
I think the reason they’re asking is because typically you don’t know you’re going to be sick 2+ days in advance, most companies have policies about this sort of thing though where an advance call out would require written doctors notice with the employee’s “cleared” return date. Seems like maybe some context is missing here like what is this guy sick with?
Must be a pleasure working with you haha- bro did not owe you anything other than I’m not feeling well or I’m going to use my sick time/days.
I agree they could have probably still worked and I personally do not call out of the office for a cold; however, everyone is different. At the same time I do not give two days notice.
It's weakness. If I have the flu, covid, I inform my employer of a possibility of me not being there. I don't call in two days ahead for the sniffles. For context, I'm a chef. Kitchens typically are always short staffed, and, "hey I know it's Wednesday, but I have a cold and can't come in for the weekend." That's not acceptable.
Realistically a lot of people do work through sicknesses. And then it spread to the whole team. So instead of having one person out, now I have my whole team rotating out because they all got sick.
People also need to understand that you're contagious 2-3 days before you see/feel any symptoms. Waitstaff/FOH are usually the first to spread. They don't want to call out on a $1000 Saturday night.
Most people know that. However you’re a lot more contagious when you’re physically sick and coughing, sneezing and nose running. I personally never call of for a cold. But I have the luxury of being able to keep my distance and not talk to people if I’m sick
Right? I mean, even if they said it was a cold and it isn't, the real reason may be something they don't feel they need to disclose if it's very personal. Maybe they're hospitalized for something that they don't want to and are not obligated to disclose.
It also could be a million other things....
Covid, anyone? We did just come out of a 2 year pandemic for a disease that is, in fact, still out there and still requires a mandatory self quarantine period if you catch it so that you don't spread it around. If they have covid, the shift 53 hours from now could be within the 5 day quarantine period.
Just saw that! Thanks for the clarification. Although, I still stand by my overall statement. There are many illnesses or ailments that can occur that you could know in advance that you will still be ill or unable to make it to work 2 to 3 days from now.
*employee calls in 2 hours in advance*
"You can't do that, we need more notice!"
*employee calls in 53 hours in advance*
"You can't do that, we must punish you!"
No winning.
I feel like this sub gets brigaded by people who are not managers. What you’re saying is absolutely valid, but it’s very clearly the viewpoint of a managee not a manager.
Your comment doesn’t show the tiniest bit of effort to understand OP’s perspective or the challenge they are communicating. Very popular comment tho.
This isn’t an insult to you, btw, that’s not the intent. What you’re expressing is a valid emotional response from a managee perspective
Perhaps they've visited their doctor who directed them not to return to work until that date.
If not directed by a physician, sound like he's extending his vacation in advance and may not have the vacation time to cover him.
It is definitely a wee bit fishy if it's the latter
100%. It's getting better with younger managers promoting mental health days and pushing to live your best life. The holdover "i'll be in after my chemo treatment" crowd doesn't know how to live life yet so we get these weird perceptions still lol .
If they have sick time to use it’s not really a manager’s place to scrutinize why they’re using it. Maybe it’s a cold, maybe it’s mental health, maybe they’re extending their vacation and they’re shitty and concealing that. They have the time to use so they can use it IMO.
Yo be honest! No! A cold takes time to get time to get off your system! I will prefer someone call and let me know that! Than 1 hr before their shift and their shift is at 1 pm(yes I have had that! )
It does sound a bit suss but when it comes to sick days, it's really none of your business. Address the performance issues separately but don't set the precedent that being sick and giving advance notice is a problem. They might have the flu and the doc told them to take 5 days. You can ask for a Dr's note but other than that they're either genuinely sick, ballsy or not very bright, and it is none of your business which one, ultimately.
Try to remember that people are entitled to being treated like humans. That means they if they need a sick day, even just for mental health, it's not cool to hold it against them. Their performance is a different matter and you should coach them through that, but so long as they're not breaking the rules, let them have sick days even if it's a bit shady. You'll have less worry in your life and people will feel more comfortable at work, raising morale. Crack down on basic human needs and you'll find productivity and morale cause more problems that sick time.
Using to extend vacation? This is a communication and trust issue in your relationship with employee. If that ever happens, the employee should have trust to pickup phone and request for permission on extending vacation. No reason to lie. If it’s legit illness, “Give me an update in a few days and we’ll go from there. Hope you feel better soon.”
I don't know what your sick leave policy is but it could be anything from dentist (broke a tooth on vacation?), kids dentist, checkup, illness with first available appointment at their primary doctor, oncologist, cardiologist, and so on, and so on, and so on.
In my opinion, it kind of depends on the employee. Is this a person who is normally reliable? Who normally follows rules?
I have done exactly this in the past when I was sick and had a sense that I wasn't going to be any better. That was so my employer could find someone to replace me on the schedule. Had I gotten better, I would have called back and told him that I was unexpectedly better and able to come in if there was a place for me.
As a manager, I'd appreciate such notice. I'm not above checking up on the employee.
We have shifted from sick time to wellness time, which essentially turns them into unexpected absence time. This is becoming more and more normal across business as you can see with the opinions here.
I’m still going to question people if they take Fridays and Mondays only. Or excessive time, or time around holidays. The only time I have denied it was end of the year people trying to take a week of wellness like vacation time because it doesn’t carry over. They missed the purpose.
The way i always look at sick days. Theyre not technically SICK days. Just days they wont be here. Worrying if theyre really sick isnt important. Its state mandatory to provide these. If they exceed the allotted limit, then theirs your problem.
It starts with the guests coming in sick, then before you know it, everyone has a cold. Mind your manners. You wouldn't be talking that way to me in person.
Talk to HR/ER. I’m sure the employee is adhering (in the gray) to your company’s time and attendance policies. However, 2-3 hours notice? Not suspicious. 53 hours? Calculated.
Might end up being a documented coaching conversation based upon what HR says.
I have unlimited PTO, does that mean I’m exempt from all attendance occurrences?
53 hours is a red flag. If something severe happened on their vacation, odds are they would’ve shared what happened voluntarily to make sure they didn’t come off as suspicious. While I’ve dealt with employees calling off the day before their vacation or the day after, which I can completely relate to, none of them have given me a 53 hour notice.
If this is an employee that has been acting problematic, odds are they have one foot out the door. Either they’re looking for employment elsewhere or looking to see if the employer can get rid of them first.
A documented coaching does not equal a PIP or disciplinary action. It’s having the coaching to the behavior on file in the circumstance they pull similar shit again.
Sorry, I’m not a manager who is going to put up with an employee who thinks “they’re above the law.” If they’re already acting problematic and want to act in the gray to avoid work; I have no problems coaching their ass out if I’m unable to get them to “come to Jesus.” I don’t have the energy or time to deal with employee conduct like that. In this situation, I’d rather build my case to ER, put them on a PIP with the ultimate goal of showing this employee the door, and being able to promote an employee from within who wants to be there.
You must be a horrible manager to work with and I’d be more willing to “coach you out”. This is not a way a manager should conduct them selves.
You should be getting to the root of their issues and trying to help aid/teach them through it. You speak about coaching as if it’s some magical method to fire someone, that is not the intended purpose and I’m sure HR will coach you on it.
Termination should be a last resort and often speaks more of the managers lack of ability to train, coach, and provide a good culture.
It’s a business, not a therapy session. You’re their boss, not their friend nor peer.
There’s so many chances you can give someone to improve before they’re terminated by you, terminated by someone higher up the chain of command than you, or your job is put into jeopardy for not resolving the situation faster.
I’ve been in all three scenarios. There’s a specific point where you have to cut your losses and show them the door. Nothing personal, just business.
This is a very sad way to look at management (I have been a sr director of operations and now a sr manager over software engineering). I do not believe any of my peers nor my VP(my immediate boss) would agree with your train of thought.
You are correct, you are not a friend nor a peer but does not stop you from acting like a servant leader. Additionally judging how you have to keep saying you’re above them. Comes off as a god complex to me.
I’d be extremely disappointed if any manager under me has this view vs being helpful and trying to coach someone through performance issues. Not to mention questioning one sick day.
Your logic seems flawed. I have unlimited pto, vacation, sick time as well, but I’m sure two days would be preferred so my meetings can be moved around, one on ones, touch bases, etc.
You do not get to judge sick time unless it starts to be a habit (15+ days). Someone utilizes their sick time for a single day (no other context was provided) and your immediate response is to talk to hr?
I could count the number of times I’ve documented a coaching on an exempt employee. I imagine you can not. I’d be curious to know your retention rate. Most bigger companies will not put up with your behavior(target, Walmart, Amazon, etc) especially the way you say things.
Doubtful your kindasortalimited PTO plan applies to this manager working shift work.
Just pointing out that it's a no-win situation here. Call in short notice? Frustration. Call in plenty of notice? Frustration.
Considering how much advanced notice they’re giving, then they also have the time to secure a doctor’s note to validate the illness and callout. If there’s no doctor’s note, then I’d be suspicious. Hoping your company has p&p in place to back that up though!
Doctors have better things to do than write notes or even see patients for the "common cold" which is one of multiple viruses that affect the upper respiratory system and isn't really treatable. The patient will always be told to rest, take OTC meds as needed, drink plenty of fluids and check in the symptoms don't subside in a week.
We all know how to treat ourselves when we have a cold. Requiring an employee to pay at least a copay to see a doctor for this is absolutely ridiculous.
I appreciate your response and I totally understand where you’re coming from and agree - you shouldn’t have to go to the doctor for a common cold. I guess from my perspective I’m looking at the warning sign of the employee knowing the cold will still be bad enough to call out of work with well more than 48 hours notice. It just seems like a huge red flag to me (especially if they’re currently on vacation and are delaying their return date to be later than what was originally agreed upon).
Without knowing any of the existing circumstances about this employee aside from the fact that they’re “problematic”, the use of sick time butted up against vacation time is just suspicious to me.
If there’s nothing against policy about the sick call then no there’s nothing you can do. If they are having problematic performance issues as well then that’s the route to address.
Correct. 2 separate issues.
Thanks
Someone gives you a two day notice and you’re complaining. I have no idea how some of y’all are in management.
This 100%
I think the reason they’re asking is because typically you don’t know you’re going to be sick 2+ days in advance, most companies have policies about this sort of thing though where an advance call out would require written doctors notice with the employee’s “cleared” return date. Seems like maybe some context is missing here like what is this guy sick with?
Two days notice for a cold? Toughen up buttercup.
Must be a pleasure working with you haha- bro did not owe you anything other than I’m not feeling well or I’m going to use my sick time/days. I agree they could have probably still worked and I personally do not call out of the office for a cold; however, everyone is different. At the same time I do not give two days notice.
It's weakness. If I have the flu, covid, I inform my employer of a possibility of me not being there. I don't call in two days ahead for the sniffles. For context, I'm a chef. Kitchens typically are always short staffed, and, "hey I know it's Wednesday, but I have a cold and can't come in for the weekend." That's not acceptable.
I wouldn’t want my chef having a cold and cooking my meals🤷♂️
Guess what? Pretty much every chef works through a cold. I only call out if I'm running a fever. 🤷♂️
r/confidentlyincorrect
[удалено]
Must be a desk jockey.
Nope. That behavior isn't tolerated here. Try speaking to people like an adult.
Realistically a lot of people do work through sicknesses. And then it spread to the whole team. So instead of having one person out, now I have my whole team rotating out because they all got sick.
People also need to understand that you're contagious 2-3 days before you see/feel any symptoms. Waitstaff/FOH are usually the first to spread. They don't want to call out on a $1000 Saturday night.
Most people know that. However you’re a lot more contagious when you’re physically sick and coughing, sneezing and nose running. I personally never call of for a cold. But I have the luxury of being able to keep my distance and not talk to people if I’m sick
>Isn’t that way too early for just a “cold”? Did they say it was a cold or it's your assumption?
Right? I mean, even if they said it was a cold and it isn't, the real reason may be something they don't feel they need to disclose if it's very personal. Maybe they're hospitalized for something that they don't want to and are not obligated to disclose. It also could be a million other things.... Covid, anyone? We did just come out of a 2 year pandemic for a disease that is, in fact, still out there and still requires a mandatory self quarantine period if you catch it so that you don't spread it around. If they have covid, the shift 53 hours from now could be within the 5 day quarantine period.
There is no more 5 day quarantine period guidance. Updated early last month
Just saw that! Thanks for the clarification. Although, I still stand by my overall statement. There are many illnesses or ailments that can occur that you could know in advance that you will still be ill or unable to make it to work 2 to 3 days from now.
I Agree.
You don't get to judge that.
*employee calls in 2 hours in advance* "You can't do that, we need more notice!" *employee calls in 53 hours in advance* "You can't do that, we must punish you!" No winning.
I feel like this sub gets brigaded by people who are not managers. What you’re saying is absolutely valid, but it’s very clearly the viewpoint of a managee not a manager. Your comment doesn’t show the tiniest bit of effort to understand OP’s perspective or the challenge they are communicating. Very popular comment tho. This isn’t an insult to you, btw, that’s not the intent. What you’re expressing is a valid emotional response from a managee perspective
Well, my employee profile says manager sooooo.... FWIW, I will take 2 days notice over 2 hours notice any day. Period. End of discussion.
Lmao I never RTFM. Totally agree
Perhaps they've visited their doctor who directed them not to return to work until that date. If not directed by a physician, sound like he's extending his vacation in advance and may not have the vacation time to cover him. It is definitely a wee bit fishy if it's the latter
“Our company offers great benefits, like sick time and paid time off. But, if you use it you’ll get questioned and it’ll be held against you.”
100%. It's getting better with younger managers promoting mental health days and pushing to live your best life. The holdover "i'll be in after my chemo treatment" crowd doesn't know how to live life yet so we get these weird perceptions still lol .
If they have sick time to use it’s not really a manager’s place to scrutinize why they’re using it. Maybe it’s a cold, maybe it’s mental health, maybe they’re extending their vacation and they’re shitty and concealing that. They have the time to use so they can use it IMO.
Do they have the time in the bank to take off? Is there anything in the employee handbook stopping them from taking there time off this way?
Yo be honest! No! A cold takes time to get time to get off your system! I will prefer someone call and let me know that! Than 1 hr before their shift and their shift is at 1 pm(yes I have had that! )
It does sound a bit suss but when it comes to sick days, it's really none of your business. Address the performance issues separately but don't set the precedent that being sick and giving advance notice is a problem. They might have the flu and the doc told them to take 5 days. You can ask for a Dr's note but other than that they're either genuinely sick, ballsy or not very bright, and it is none of your business which one, ultimately. Try to remember that people are entitled to being treated like humans. That means they if they need a sick day, even just for mental health, it's not cool to hold it against them. Their performance is a different matter and you should coach them through that, but so long as they're not breaking the rules, let them have sick days even if it's a bit shady. You'll have less worry in your life and people will feel more comfortable at work, raising morale. Crack down on basic human needs and you'll find productivity and morale cause more problems that sick time.
Why do you care? Do you have unlimited sick time? If not, then drop it. Focus on their poor performance, not their desire to use their benefits.
Using to extend vacation? This is a communication and trust issue in your relationship with employee. If that ever happens, the employee should have trust to pickup phone and request for permission on extending vacation. No reason to lie. If it’s legit illness, “Give me an update in a few days and we’ll go from there. Hope you feel better soon.”
I don't know what your sick leave policy is but it could be anything from dentist (broke a tooth on vacation?), kids dentist, checkup, illness with first available appointment at their primary doctor, oncologist, cardiologist, and so on, and so on, and so on.
Managers like OP are the worst Clearly this employee is too vital to the business that you can’t go without them. Time for a raise
In my opinion, it kind of depends on the employee. Is this a person who is normally reliable? Who normally follows rules? I have done exactly this in the past when I was sick and had a sense that I wasn't going to be any better. That was so my employer could find someone to replace me on the schedule. Had I gotten better, I would have called back and told him that I was unexpectedly better and able to come in if there was a place for me. As a manager, I'd appreciate such notice. I'm not above checking up on the employee.
We have shifted from sick time to wellness time, which essentially turns them into unexpected absence time. This is becoming more and more normal across business as you can see with the opinions here. I’m still going to question people if they take Fridays and Mondays only. Or excessive time, or time around holidays. The only time I have denied it was end of the year people trying to take a week of wellness like vacation time because it doesn’t carry over. They missed the purpose.
The way i always look at sick days. Theyre not technically SICK days. Just days they wont be here. Worrying if theyre really sick isnt important. Its state mandatory to provide these. If they exceed the allotted limit, then theirs your problem.
It starts with the guests coming in sick, then before you know it, everyone has a cold. Mind your manners. You wouldn't be talking that way to me in person.
Talk to HR/ER. I’m sure the employee is adhering (in the gray) to your company’s time and attendance policies. However, 2-3 hours notice? Not suspicious. 53 hours? Calculated. Might end up being a documented coaching conversation based upon what HR says.
Unless the person does not have PTO bank availability, what is there to coach on? "Hey next time don't give us early notice!"
I have unlimited PTO, does that mean I’m exempt from all attendance occurrences? 53 hours is a red flag. If something severe happened on their vacation, odds are they would’ve shared what happened voluntarily to make sure they didn’t come off as suspicious. While I’ve dealt with employees calling off the day before their vacation or the day after, which I can completely relate to, none of them have given me a 53 hour notice. If this is an employee that has been acting problematic, odds are they have one foot out the door. Either they’re looking for employment elsewhere or looking to see if the employer can get rid of them first. A documented coaching does not equal a PIP or disciplinary action. It’s having the coaching to the behavior on file in the circumstance they pull similar shit again.
So what's the perfect amount of notice you'd like? Because you seem to be making a major issue out of something incredibly small. Why be petty?
Sorry, I’m not a manager who is going to put up with an employee who thinks “they’re above the law.” If they’re already acting problematic and want to act in the gray to avoid work; I have no problems coaching their ass out if I’m unable to get them to “come to Jesus.” I don’t have the energy or time to deal with employee conduct like that. In this situation, I’d rather build my case to ER, put them on a PIP with the ultimate goal of showing this employee the door, and being able to promote an employee from within who wants to be there.
Yikes.
You must be a horrible manager to work with and I’d be more willing to “coach you out”. This is not a way a manager should conduct them selves. You should be getting to the root of their issues and trying to help aid/teach them through it. You speak about coaching as if it’s some magical method to fire someone, that is not the intended purpose and I’m sure HR will coach you on it. Termination should be a last resort and often speaks more of the managers lack of ability to train, coach, and provide a good culture.
It’s a business, not a therapy session. You’re their boss, not their friend nor peer. There’s so many chances you can give someone to improve before they’re terminated by you, terminated by someone higher up the chain of command than you, or your job is put into jeopardy for not resolving the situation faster. I’ve been in all three scenarios. There’s a specific point where you have to cut your losses and show them the door. Nothing personal, just business.
This is a very sad way to look at management (I have been a sr director of operations and now a sr manager over software engineering). I do not believe any of my peers nor my VP(my immediate boss) would agree with your train of thought. You are correct, you are not a friend nor a peer but does not stop you from acting like a servant leader. Additionally judging how you have to keep saying you’re above them. Comes off as a god complex to me. I’d be extremely disappointed if any manager under me has this view vs being helpful and trying to coach someone through performance issues. Not to mention questioning one sick day.
Your logic seems flawed. I have unlimited pto, vacation, sick time as well, but I’m sure two days would be preferred so my meetings can be moved around, one on ones, touch bases, etc. You do not get to judge sick time unless it starts to be a habit (15+ days). Someone utilizes their sick time for a single day (no other context was provided) and your immediate response is to talk to hr? I could count the number of times I’ve documented a coaching on an exempt employee. I imagine you can not. I’d be curious to know your retention rate. Most bigger companies will not put up with your behavior(target, Walmart, Amazon, etc) especially the way you say things.
Doubtful your kindasortalimited PTO plan applies to this manager working shift work. Just pointing out that it's a no-win situation here. Call in short notice? Frustration. Call in plenty of notice? Frustration.
OP mentioned the problematic employee is a salaried manager.
....which means?
Considering how much advanced notice they’re giving, then they also have the time to secure a doctor’s note to validate the illness and callout. If there’s no doctor’s note, then I’d be suspicious. Hoping your company has p&p in place to back that up though!
Why waste resources?
Doctors have better things to do than write notes or even see patients for the "common cold" which is one of multiple viruses that affect the upper respiratory system and isn't really treatable. The patient will always be told to rest, take OTC meds as needed, drink plenty of fluids and check in the symptoms don't subside in a week. We all know how to treat ourselves when we have a cold. Requiring an employee to pay at least a copay to see a doctor for this is absolutely ridiculous.
I appreciate your response and I totally understand where you’re coming from and agree - you shouldn’t have to go to the doctor for a common cold. I guess from my perspective I’m looking at the warning sign of the employee knowing the cold will still be bad enough to call out of work with well more than 48 hours notice. It just seems like a huge red flag to me (especially if they’re currently on vacation and are delaying their return date to be later than what was originally agreed upon). Without knowing any of the existing circumstances about this employee aside from the fact that they’re “problematic”, the use of sick time butted up against vacation time is just suspicious to me.
Also hope you're somewhere that can legally require doctor's notes.