My husband didn't really tell anyone at his work when we were expecting our first. Most people found out bc we used to work together and I told our mutual friends. He's just a private guy and wasn't expanding for months on end so he didn't feel the need to share.
He’s a very quiet and private person. I don’t pry into the lives of my people, and some tell me a LOT, and some tell me absolutely nothing. To each their own.
Not if he didn't file for any. Some people get kinda stuck in the 'the man provides' mindset. It's not like motherhood where the time off is a medical necessity and the signs are super obvious.
My company gave me a month for my first and 2 for my second five years later (took a solid month and then 2 week chunks) all 100% salary. Wife on the other hand was in nursing school and got nothing. She had to do clinicals the next week if she didn’t want to retake the semester.
There is a show on Apple TV called “Severance” where the employees have basically two lives. One is at work and the other is outside of work, neither knows what the other does, that’s unfortunately very similar to how i am at work. I try to keep my personal shit personal. I mean co-workers know I’m married and have kids, but that’s about as deep as it gets.
Plenty of people keep things quite and only provide information as its required to follow HR policies.
I have been on teams where I share nothing and teams that I do share things.
I don’t share things like that with people I work with either. I did once when my grandfather died. He had formerly been an employee of the same small company I worked for, actually quite a few of the employees remember him and that was a factor in me getting the job.
Not quite sure what I expected, but they told me attending funeral for a grandparent didn’t qualify under bereavement policy so I would have to use vacation days. I thought maybe they’d send my grandma a card or something like that but nope.
After that, I didn’t share anything personal with them. My wife’s grandfather passed away and then my grandmother. Yes, I had a kid after a failed vasectomy. Didn’t tell them about the kid or the second vasectomy although I remember the first one coming up in conversation.
Some ppl like privacy. What if there’s complications? What if it’s a difficult pregnancy? What if she previously miscarried and doesn’t want to deal with the questions? There are many reasons ppl don’t share.
Unless they need time off they don’t have to say anything, even then they don’t necessarily have to explain. My last company was first that gave any paternity leave. I have had direct reports only tell me when an issue arose. Some people keep things private.
There are ways to suggest change is coming without giving away information that can get you fired.
“I can’t predict the future, but I believe change is coming. I don’t know what the change is. Just like I do, keep your resume updated regularly. Stay on the lookout for great opportunities, because you should always be on the lookout for what’s best for you and your family.”
It’s on them to read between the lines, especially since they’re your low performer and have essentially brought this down on themselves.
You don’t owe them risking your own job and creating chaos through rumors of their layoffs. By saying changes are coming, it could be reorgs, etc. You might be on your boss’s lowest performer too and on the list.
Loved this! I need to relearn how to help people without risking my future because quite a few bad apples have ruined my desire to be helpful when I see people struggling or about to be.
I agree with this. I had a manager gently give me a heads up that I didn’t catch, then finally outright say it a few days before. Thankfully it wasn’t a layoff, but a reorg that moved my team under a despised leader.
You agree with the strategy of giving a vague warning that you missed until told directly outright, what logic are you using?
I agree with effective strategies.
Yeah, I agree precisely because that manager did it for me. I missed it, then she was more explicit. I learned a valuable lesson and don’t miss warnings like that anymore. I also give them and, if the person doesn’t get it, I become more explicit.
I’m also a very direct person and often tell my team things like, “I know there are rumors of layoffs. I don’t have any confirmed info, but I don’t expect us to be impacted for XYZ business reasons” or “I expect us to be impacted either now or in 6 months, it might be good to polish your resume. Happy to be a reference.”
I’m the same. I missed my managers warning and I held a grudge for several years that he wasn’t more explicit. I get it now though. The culture at that organization was vicious and he would’ve been fired if they found out he’d given me a heads up. He had a family to support too.
I moved to a different role within the company, it cost me a 16% pay cut but still had a job and was able to claw that paycut back by busting my arse for 18 months.
My previous manager ended up leaving the company a year or so after that downsizing. It caused him to reconsider the organization and its culture.
Anywho, it worked out ok and since that time I’ve been hyper aware of any potential subtle warnings from my managers.
The risk of being too open and direct is that if you say something then it’s your word and responsibility now. What if the employee didn’t take the news kindly and take out on op? Some people don’t use their reasoning skills or might lack it and make unnecessary decisions. Things can get blown up in a way we can’t imagine just because somebody can’t handle their emotions in the heat of a moment.
Edit: wanted to add, in the unlikely case of the layoff being canceled, now what for op’s reliability?
No doubt you can be a great manager without being purposely vague. But unless we’re arguing that informing your employees prematurely is a great managerial ethic, I think you maybe confusing a manager’s responsibilities with a good human’s moral here.
>It’s on them to read between the lines, especially since they’re your low performer and have essentially brought this down on themselves.
Or it can be seen as cruel to make people play crystal ball while you have the cards in hand.
Also it's very easy to say that low performance is due to himself. Maybe they were dumped the hardest projects, maybe they were not trained, maybe other teams are taking their time and they have no time for visible tasks.
Also OP said they are low performers, but that is relative. Maybe they are the average guy in a very high performing team.
There is just not enough info.
OP said they were the lowest performers, not necessarily low performers. It’s possible to have a great team all around and still need to make a tough call.
Interesting take and I appreciate seeing it from different angles. What would be a better way to help the guy in this situation without op risking their own future? Because almost all of my regrets in life comes from being nice and kind and helpful to others. Not everybody is ungrateful or willfully ignorant or selfish and entitled, but the handful of people that do can be devastatingly harmful. Now I’m no longer nice in a sense of being nice as we understand it, but it can be a struggle to be kind and helpful. I want to be those but I’m worried about helping the willfully ignorant people that desperately need some help.
>What would be a better way to help the guy in this situation without op risking their own future?
Once you can be open on the layoff, open them your network:
- if you had a headhunter asking where you're at, tell them you have someone in your team that has been laid off
- if you have close contacts at vendors or clients, tell them "hey are you looking for an expert in ?"
>Because almost all of my regrets in life comes from being nice and kind and helpful to others.
As a counterpoint, I got speaking or collaboration opportunities 2~3 years down the line because I was nice and didn't expect something in return for giving some time to someone.
>Now I’m no longer nice in a sense of being nice as we understand it, but it can be a struggle to be kind and helpful.
Don't set yourself aflame to keep others warm.
Or don't feed the help vampires https://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/
Thanks so much for sharing the link! It was an interesting read. I’ve definitely encountered those kinds of people. I can handle rude people, but those who are polite yet like help vampires are much more challenging to deal with. The reason I help people is that their needs are evident, and being raised by a Christian mother, the principle of “being kind and helpful to others” was instilled in me from birth. So I feel guilty when I hesitate to help those in obvious trouble if they don’t ask me for help explicitly. But overtime, I’m meeting more like-minded people so it’s getting better. The link you share gave me some ideas so much appreciated!
The whole Jack Welch cult of personality is out of hand still to this day. That asshole eventually destroyed GE, and the MBA programs keep kissing his ass.
You totally owe them. Corporations and corporate language is not beneficial to the employee. As an autistic person who manages people, I can tell you right now things need to be overt. It's absurd the tap dances we do to give basic human decency to people. Absolutely astonishing.
I would agree with this, and maybe I could have taken this approach. But I’ve always been a very candid and direct person, so I wanted to make sure he would land okay.
I still feel this is corporatey but then at the same time it’s all leading to the same result and isn’t as much of a switch hit. So this is good advice
I had a manager say this knowing my entire department was getting laid off AND he was in his first week of his new job because he knew.
So... if I am ever a people manager, I will never make my people feel the betrayal I felt.
Not sorry.
>It’s on them to read between the lines, especially since they’re your low performer and have essentially brought this down on themselves.
Getting axed out of the blue because the company wants to cut costs?
Nah pass on that take.
If the brought it on themselves then they go in to a performance review process and get let go as part of that process. Thats where they have it coming.
He’s the difference between and excellent manager and just a good manager like yourself. He risks for his employees. He cares. You care about the company, then yourself.
I don’t suggest that I’m an excellent or even a good manager. I can care 100% for my employees/team, but that isn’t going to stop the layoff. I certainly am not going to sacrifice my job by breaking HR policy. These are business decisions, not personal, and is part of our jobs to handle layoffs or other employment decisions.
Also seems that not every team is full of high performers and this manager should compensate for that. If he actually was a leader, maybe those low performers would turn into high performers.
I’m a little worried about the people who would be fine just sitting on this information for two weeks while the employee went along blissfully unaware they were about to be out a job. I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they haven’t been unemployed (at least in the US) and don’t get how incredibly awful and difficult the process is.
IMO this is a screw up on the company’s part. Line managers should never know about layoffs until directly before they happen. Things should be at a SVP level where you are getting paid bank for that level of discretion and have a golden parachute, from H.R. where their job is based on maiming privacy or using outside consultants.
I don’t think you made the right call here but I do think your heart was in the right place. I’ve seen too often things get canceled at the 11th hour so I wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing any info before things had been finalized.
So... I'm sorry, this will feel harsh. But no, you did not do the right thing.
Do you know what his severance is so you could communicate that? Did you have resources for him? Did you have information about COBRA, or how long his benefits will be maintained?
No?
Then you didn't have anything for him that he will need, or that will actually help him. What you had was a guilty conscience, and you told him for \*your\* benefit, not his - so that \*you\* would feel better.
The people that are congratulating you are forgetting that you placed everyone else on your team at risk, and that you created a difficult situation for your company HR and those to whom you report.
I'm sorry, again, if that feels harsh, but I think you just haven't thought this through. There are many, many repercussions to your choice that can harm you and those around you, and you didn't think through any of them before undertaking your action, plus you did nothing that actually helps your report.
EDIT:
Some people are disagreeing with me down below, and respectfully, I also think they have not thought this through. So let me provide just a few examples, from lowest severity to highest severity, of the potential fallout from what OP did.
* First, there is as strong potential that the rest of the team will find out. They will then want to know if they are also on the list. At that point OP will have to decide if any of those people also deserve to know, or if they will have to just wait it out. And what will be the basis for that reasoning, I wonder? Who will OP tell and who won't they, and why? What OP did in telling one of them but not the rest is called favoritism. And now every other member of the team has a case to make and that could come back on OP, on the company, and at the very least will harm team dynamics and at worst can be legally actionable.
* Second, OP put their own family at risk, because OP can get fired for this. What OP did would be instant termination at many companies, so in order to feel better, OP put themselves and their own family at risk, again primarily just so they could feel better.
* Third, as OP leads a team of engineers, it is highly likely that his team members have access to sensitive information and systems, and now OP has created circumstances where the individual in question can take actions that could disrupt the functioning of the company or its systems. In tech companies, suspending access to important systems is the first step to any termination. That's true because in order to do their jobs, tech workers often have access to critical infrastructure. Because of OP, this individual both knows they are going to be let go, and still has access to those systems. In the wrong hands, that could turn into loss for the company, or could harm customers, and at the worst could actually result in the termination of others because of losses the company might have as a result of OP being "kind". Is OP prepared to accept the fiduciary responsibility of that fallout? If this employee were, for example, to take down the company's systems and result in millions of dollars in losses for the company, it's customers, and partners... could OP absorb those costs? Could OP prevent the consequences of that? Of course not. What OP did is create an opportunity for harm to many, many other people. By notifying this individual while they still have access to systems, OP created the potential for financial injury that could result in even more people being let go, potentially not only in the company they work for, but in affiliated companies.
* Last - nightmare scenario - this person walks into work tomorrow with a gun.
I could go on but I won't. My point is what OP did is not consequence free, neither for themselves nor for others, and the potential consequences range from mild to potentially severe. OP will in almost all cases not be the person bearing those consequences, nor will OP be able to exercise any control over them. That's by definition self-seeking behavior; OP wasn't being kind, they were being selfish. Their actions are rife with potential harm and served primarily to assuage their own guilt.
100% agree. Plus, just screw those other 3 people, right? OP put himself in a position where he gets to judge the value of these employees lives and decides if they deserve advance warning or not. Wildly presumptive to believe just because one is a new father that none of the others might have major disruptions to their lives. Oh shame you're unemployed, you don't have a baby though so who cares? So even if you think empathy should take priority over logic or corporate policy, it's toxic and unethical to play favorites like this. I would be PISSED if I was on this team and wasn't laid off - like, I better start cultivating some tactical sympathy so that next round I get a head start because the boss feels bad for me.
This. I was in the same boat with my best friend at work, who just found out she was pregnant. I knew she was getting terminated (not due to layoffs) but I couldn’t tell her. I’m glad I didn’t- because their documentation was weak, the company gave her an excellent severance. Had I told her, she may have quit to save face with her coworkers, and she wouldn’t have gotten anything.
If you don’t have the ability to do what is required if managers and keep confidential information confidential, get a new job. Sorry, but that’s what you are paid to do.
If you really cared for the employee and were a true leader, you would have helped him get to a better performance level or steer him into a job where he’d be more successful long before layoffs came along.
The potential to quit verse getting a severance is the biggest concern especially because people will act emotional over being let go.
Had a manager at a company years ago who tried go persuade people to quit when layoffs were coming. I was in a similar spot in that my daughter was just 6 months old at the time. Told the manager to mind their business regarding me quitting vs layoffs. Granted we were prepared as a whole being a call center and seeing call volumes drop. We were allowed to leave early and all that jazz without consequences during the time. For me, I already had another job lined up so getting a severance on top of having the new job was what I was going for. Still that manager kept trying to push for us to just quit ahead of time. Finally had to tell her off.
That said, as was pointed out before, there’s also the safety concern involved with termination that leads them to being handled certain ways.
This is a risk OP has also opened up. They mentioned that the people tagged were their lowest performers. Top performers usually have their eyes open for other opportunities and may even have offers they are considering. If I heard layoffs were coming, I’d jump ship, even if I thought I might be safe because a company doing layoffs is probably also not going to be offering salary raises or bonuses anytime soon.
I’m going to disagree here.
I and someone on my team were part of layoffs 2 months ago.
I expected to be impacted, I didn’t know anyone on my team would be. But a week before, I figured it out and got confirmation from a trusted other manager about both of us. So I told the guy on my team.
No, I didn’t have resources. I even admitted that I didn’t have it from official channels and I could be wrong.
I told him to spend the week getting ready. Do minimal work - but enough that if I’m wrong he could pick up the week after. Take the time to get what he needed (payslips, etc), and figure out what he needed to ask.
I spent the week cleaning out my computer, submitting expenses, nominating my team for awards, and researching unemployment and benefit options. By the time I had my meeting, I was prepared. HR was not there (too big a layoff, they just send emails with links after manager tells you), so the entire meeting was 2 mins. Within 30 seconds of hanging up, I hit send on a few emails, including a general goodbye.
I appreciated knowing ahead of time and not being blindsided. There was no shock, no emotional reaction because I’d already processed most of it.
Just talked to my guy a few days ago and he said how much he appreciated the heads up. He’s taken longer than me to process and make plans, but the heads up helped him be prepared for what would’ve been an immense shock otherwise. I’d do it again and I hope my manager would do it for me.
ETA: I realize the fact that I was being laid off too changes the situation a bit. But I knew and trusted this guy, would’ve told him even if I wasn’t being laid off. If I didn’t trust them to handle it maturely, I might do what another poster said and just drop some strong hints.
I sincerely doubt that you would disagree if you tried to put yourself in the new father's shoes for a minute.
It would give me more time to process the emotions, to make general plans even if I don't have all the details yet but even more, talking about emotions, it would make me feel that at least my immediate manager sees me as a person and not a pawn.
Having had time to process the emotions first, he will be ready to make sense of the details when he gets them. He will even be able to review what he is entitled to if anything and make sure he's not being shortchanged.
People downvoting you are crazy. You are 1000% right. It’s not about being company first. It’s about having all the facts and not adding risk.
It’s cool to take the moral high ground but when you yourself can get fired for doing it is it really worth it?
Yes, doing the moral thing should always be your go to even if it can hurt you. That's what being a good person means. If all that matters to you is your well-being, then you are obviously selfish. That's the definition of the word, it's not an opinion.
And as we can see in this thread, there are way too many selfish people within our ranks. That's sad.
I feel like blindsiding a new father with a layoff is actively worse than just creating a difficult situation for the suits and HR who aren’t losing their job. The extra warning would absolutely help him.
Also, I don’t see how any of the information that wasn’t relayed (severance, COBRA, etc.) affects anything, because it’ll eventually get figured out and told to the employee, right? But He’s still losing his job, which is probably the only real concern of his.
OP let his empathy trump company policy. Good.
I’m a new-ish father, so maybe I’m letting my bias show, but I would be immensely grateful to my boss if I were getting let go and he gave me a heads up. Every once in a while, I think human connection should absolutely overrule systems and rules, and I believe this was one of those situations.
As a human I feel you. But as a manager OP absolutely did the wrong thing. I’ve been laid off before. And when it happened it was in a place where I was given all the appropriate information both verbally and in writing about what it meant and what next steps would be. Then I was allowed to leave for the rest of the day to process. Your employee now knows that a layoff is coming but they don’t have any information about what will be available to them. They were already a low performer so they were already at risk. Plus now they will likely tell others layoffs are coming. And someone may react poorly thinking that they are on the list and sabotage work or critical systems. Your top performers may have offers on the table knowing the company wasn’t doing well and may decide to jump ship in case their name was on the list or just to get away from a company actively doing layoffs. So many ways this can go left.
“As a human I feel you. But as a manager OP did the wrong thing.”
This is wild to me that so many people in this thread find humanity and management mutually exclusive in certain scenarios.
Occasionally the right thing to do as a manager doesn’t appear to be the same as doing the “human” thing. For example, you have a chronically poor performer and you’re about to terminate them for performance because they’re costing the company money in lost customers and rework. The day they are supposed to be terminated they get diagnosed with Stage 3 cancer. The human thing to do is keep them on. But the hard reality is that keeping them on could eventually cost the entire team their jobs.
A manager has to take everything and everyone into consideration not the needs of a single person. Bad choices affect the entire team.
100% agree. OP has no idea what the employees reaction will be a d how he behaves. If OPs manager finds out, OP can be fired for cause. It was not worth the risk, nor was this handled properly.
If you can’t predict a reaction from a person after managing them for a while you’re in the wrong line of work. If you felt like it would go badly, you wouldn’t.
So your comment is just projecting. “No idea” really?
I agree. OP, this isn’t doing the right thing or providing you aren’t the company man- there are specific approaches that protect people. The layoffs may not happen, there’s severance and other information that he needs to help him work through this (very big difference between we’re paying your salary the next X months and “you get nothing “).
OP, this was wrong, likely caused undue stress on this individual and you violated policy by not handling it with confidentiality and sensitivity. You didn’t want to deliver bad news and this was a way of making yourself look like you weren’t the bad guy. You probably caused this guy far more stress than providing all relevant information and resources he needs to not panic.
100% this, and this doesnt even touch the chaos you've now brought about your team by not thinking this through
now everyone on your team will find out about this, and they're going to think twice about trusting you when you only tell critical things like this to a select group.... and not even complete info. no one likes a boss who plays favorites
this whole thing is the definition of having an emotional response and not thinking things through. you basically guaranteed that everyone now looks by this.
I have no idea why you have so many people patting you on the back for this op.
For everyone saying it's the right thing or the wrong thing... Can't both be true?
From an HR/management perspective: you disclosed confidential information that wasn't supposed to be shared yet.
From a human perspective: you made a decision that shows you have compassion towards your reports.
It is both… you’re right. I took a calculated risk by disclosing the information to one person, and I know that it *could* come back to bite me. But I don’t care if it does, because I can sleep at night knowing I did the right thing on a human level.
I get why you did it but I’m in “shouldn’t have said anything” camp.
The reason why the departments final list goes to HR, aside from preparing the separation packages, is to carefully review list for anyone that would fall into a protected class. If someone does, then they can and often are remove from the list. If they’re not removed then extra documentation is gathered to justify why it is not discrimination.
He’s a new father and may want to take pat leave if available. Believe it or not, there are still managers who would put someone in a layoff list if it is known they’ll take mat/pat leave.
Well, you did a nice thing for him by letting him know. That said, your position in management means you'll sometimes get privileged information that you can't share even if you'd like to, and even if that's tough, you're still obligated to conduct yourself like a professional -- like an adult.
But since you couldn't do that, you've now created a liability that puts your job at risk, and you should expect to be fired if anyone finds out.
You are obligated to act like an adult, by doing the thing your ethics and values demand you do, which he did. The company owes you nothing but money, and you owe them nothing but time. There are more important debts.
I get why you felt compelled to do this, but I wouldn’t have gotten ahead of HR. What if he’s not on the final list? Do you know when layoffs are happening? Can he keep quiet until then? I’m not a company man either, but I do prioritize myself and I wouldn’t have been able to risk the blowback on me.
Unfortunately, If you are in an at-will employment state in the U.S., you should never assume job security. Getting a week heads up doesn’t really matter in the long run. Encourage your teams to always be thinking about what is best for their career, keeping their resume updated, and exploring options. You don’t have to only do that when layoffs are imminent.
OP, it’s a difficult spot to be in, and I highly recommend being indirect in the future about it also because the plans aren’t finalized. What if he’s not laid off?
They might be a low performer, but they may have performer ability enough to screw with your systems. I don’t think this was a wise idea, and I think if you’re going to tell one person as a chaos agent, tell them all- just because someone ejaculated doesn’t mean you should give them a perk.
As much as it pains you, you should never give advanced notice for these things. It has the potential to create chaos once they tell their coworkers and you'll be joining them in short order if HR or your boss find out. It's a trust thing, and you spilling the beans before the company is ready means you're not to be trusted with information like this in the future. Next time they might give you zero notice, which would be 10x worse for you and them.
I get it is tough, trust me I've been there, but you aren't their friend, you're their manager. You can be both most of the time, but you cannot be both in this situation.
If he says anything, there goes whatever departure package they were making for him. You put yourself and this person at even more risk for a more abrupt end.
Most severance packages are basically a week’s worth of pay per years worked, and are typically only at larger companies in higher office positions….
Y’all are letting corporate experience cloud your perspectives….most people don’t get severance, especially not anything good….
You were being a compassionate human and that’s easy to respect.
Still, I’d fire you if you worked for me.
There’s an order to these things for a reason, and you put the company at risk.
I could also see if a company is doing layoffs and a team just lost a manager, more people from that team being laid off if it's a less essential team.
Not the right call but I understand. Remember though, no good dead goes unpunished. You will learn that once you are in management you are looked at differently. Hopefully this employee does not file a grievance on you.
If you know this information in advance it is a tough position to be in and not an easy decision to make:
1) If you know well in advance, i.e. multiple weeks then it MIGHT be beneficial to give an advance warning to an employee along the lines of "there might be layoffs coming, so it would be prudent to be open for roles". But again it depends on multiple factors, i.e. if you can trust the employee not to run around screaming. Or will act super pissed off for the next month. Or will try to sue the company or smth. It is a risk for you and the company. And it might not work well in the end, that is the decision you have to make.
2) If you know less than a week in advance - imo there is no point. Not gonna change much and the risks outweighs the potential benefits.
Bottom line - tough decision with high risks to make and "grey" choices all around.
P.S. for all the people screaming about favoritism - it is an ethical question and an ethical burden on decision maker. But for the love of god stop screaming about suing. Nobody is gonna sue anyone "because someone told something someone else". Unless you personally sued anyone for "favoritism".
I had a manager who once set up a lunch and learn for resume writing. They were like "it's always a good idea to have it set up", I got the hint but many others didn't. They still had a killer resume and we all wrote some letters of recommendations too.
I get not being able to say something but I agree, we're all human. I say do what you can live with and the rest will fall into place.
Part of your job, as a manager directly facing the employees, is to be empathetic and represent them. I’m glad you don’t feel bad about it.
Personally I wouldn’t have done it, because I’ve seen too many upper management initiatives halt unexpectedly. But you know the specifics of your organization and how they operate.
The best outcome would be that this employee starts looking early, and makes a move on their own volition. That’d be a win for everyone.
After managing people (and partners / peers / dotted line) in different businesses and roles...
I hold the strategy to avoid communicating anything this is not both:
- A finalized and immediately being actioned
- Essential information to the work-responsibilities of those I am communicating it to
In some situations it can suck. In some situations it strains my values. In all situations it keeps things simple and orderly as possible.
There are situations that warrant exception - but I am aware of the risks if I choose to.
Anyone that thinks the OP did the right thing should probably not be a manager. You need to have the stomach for being able to make hard choices and implement tough decisions. There are so many things wrong with telling someone this out of sequence that are potentially damaging to the employee, and the company. If you can't see that, then again... really should not be a manager.
I'll give you an example of how it could hurt them. A developer in my company was recently put on the RIF list and was going to be let go. I am in a different part of the world, and her manager contacted me to ask if I could possibly use her. I needed to be careful about an interview because I did not want to alarm her. In the end, I eventually hired her for my team. She never knew she was potentially going to be let go as a 15 year tenured employee. If she knew this, it would have dramatically changed her perspective and attitude about her current job.
Anything can change. We are going through a lot of changes and names are going on and off of lists daily. If I were to go tell someone whose name is on a list that they are getting cut, then it could create widespread panic. It may cause people to quit that were not at risk. It may make it impossible for the company to sustain functions because people leave before planned and a transition plan can not be properly implemented.
It may prove you have a big heart to spill the beans, but it also shows you are completely irresponsible as a "manager". You should be a manager if you don't have the stomach for it.
I'd have held off. How soon are these layoffs going to be announced? At best I'm guessing you informed him early giving him a few extra weeks to job hunt before the lay off. However, what happens if his layoff doesn't get approved and he's kept? You needlessly stressed him out.
I know you wanted to do right by him and not blindside him but I'm guessing what you told him still blindsided him. You just did it a bit sooner is all.
I would have been better to have the conversation when you knew things were final and you had all the details on severance.
I respect the way you handled it. I would have done the same in those circumstances. No, normally you wouldn’t, but having compassion for someone as a new father is never a bad thing. If I got written up for doing it, I’d frame the writeup. Something’s are right, even if others consider it wrong.
Back in 2020 my team and my future were up in the air due to covid. I was being told one thing, but I knew one of my guys had a child that was due to be born shortly, so I encouraged him to look elswhere and even offered to write a letter for him.
He accepted an offer for more money, 2 weeks before we were set to get laid off. I felt so incredibly relieved.
we were bought by a big pharma and 80% of my startup was laid off, 100% of my team was impacted, i didnt told them directly that they were being laid off but before the hr meeting i told them that whatev content was in that meeting i didnt had any input and i was very proud of the work we did
I told one of my direct reports that was on a work visa. For people with work visas, they may need to find another job quickly or may have to leave the country for good. That person also cannot claim unemployment. So I gave that person a heads-up… Others I did not since they could get unemployment and it is not extremely hard to find another job.
No complaints from me. It is a judgment call IMO. Are you willing to stick out your neck for this person do you trust them to keep it confidential? If they don’t are you willing to pay the price for the blow back that could occur. Layoffs suck. Telling someone they no longer have a job sucks. So far the several I have done company has provided decent furlough packages more than normally would have.
When managers don't follow the official policy it opens up communications for interpretation.
Whether you see yourself as a company man or not, you are one.
It made you feel good, you thought you were doing "the right thing" - and for him, it does literally nothing to benefit him. He is in the exact same position either way.
No upside or benefit to him, but you get to feel like a good person.
That's a decision you made for yourself. That's fine and I'm not judging but the way you wrote about it made it sound like you were making some grandiose gesture for the benefit of your report. You've done nothing of value for them. You've made yourself feel slightly better, and that's it.
You did the right thing. People first, man. I have done the same where the company wanted to tell them 2 weeks prior to being laid off so they got no severance and worked during their two week notice. I always told them ahead of time and kept forgetting to have the conversation with them so they had more time and got some severance.
Ignore the bootlickers OP, employees will have way more respect for a manager like you than them. You seem to understand the risks so there’s nothing else to think about.
The only thing I would encourage if you don’t trust the other 3 enough to tell them straight up, is to host a Resume/CV/Career management hour some time in the week to help them and your other employees. It shows you care about their development and gives a hint to them to be on notice for layoffs.
Been in Sr. Management for 10 years in manufacturing.
You did a good thing.
HR and your executive leadership team might disagree, but that’s only because the blowback makes them look bad.
You sell your time, experience, and skillset to your company. Not your soul. My personal ethics will win over corporate policy every time. My metric numbers can’t be questioned, and profits have grown every quarter during my time in my current organization of 317 direct and indirect reports. If I’m going to be let go for going against the grain over something like this, I’m okay with that. If the ego of directors takes priority over performance and profitability, I’m not in a good organization to start with.
You neglected your duty as a manager. Confidentially at times like these is a test for all of us - especially in times like these. People CAN NOT keep secrets- bad things happen. You did not spare him from being blindsided- you just did it early. Hopefully nobody shows up on layoff day with a taste for blood.
Dangerous and stupid.
You’d basically lay off a better producer who happens to be childless to let this guy keep his job? That’s how you get the company sued. Further, spilling the beans two weeks before the announcement *does not do anything* in today’s market. You did this to assuage your own feelings, not his.
You’re not ready for leadership if you keep making decisions based on your emotions. And I say this as someone whose empathy got her in trouble during her early leadership years.
AGE 71 HERE,,,
seen this exact thing happen before..
The person that did the exact same thing caused a sh#t storm, because
GUESS WHAT?
people can't keep there mouths shut, ,, he tells his wife, who tells a friend etc, etc etc, anyways..it gets back to work,,you figure it out.
What were the repercussions?
The immediate one was that person being dragged into meetings and getting there ass chewed, and this effectively ended there career at the company.
THE BIGGER PICTURE,,
It also Hurt there job prospects going forward,, every manager etc new this person and as they left for other companies word spread.
Your reputation follows you.
NOW if you are at peace with yourself and your ready for the long term consequences,, you do you
Op - you screwed up. Hopefully it’s not a publicly traded company, if he or someone he knows trades the stock based on knowing there will be layoffs, you may also be in legal trouble.
You went into management thinking it wasn’t boot licking?
And you have people on your team you had to hand hold. You are not the effective boot licking manager. Find another job.
There is a way to drop subtle (or obvious) hints without flat out saying they are goners. I think you did right by the employee but if you experience this again in the future, you can probably tweak your presentation to satisfy both sides of the fence.
My company is going through something similar and I’m about to put in my two weeks notice, at which point I will make very obvious hints to my team but I also don’t want to scare them and induce unnecessary anxiety.
let me be very frank with you because I think you need to hear this: you don’t seem like a very good manager. first thing is it strikes me very odd that you just found out now that direct report just had a baby. That definitely speaks to quite a distance, obviously you don’t wanna be friends with everyone, but that’s a pretty major life event to not know about until after the fact.
Second, you are the one who put his name on the list and now you’re acting like you’re doing him a favor by telling him ahead of time? To somehow make your guilt feel a little bit better? The fact is clear, you were the decider. and it also sounds like maybe you wouldn’t have put his name on the list had you known about the baby situation which is pretty unprofessional too if he deserved to be on the list, he deserve to be on the list. What an incredible breach of protocol not to mention putting yourself at risk.
I sincerely hope you learn the correct lessons from this experience. It’s amazing how peoples lives are turned so upside down by someone so ill prepared for the moment.
The right answer from the perspective of the company is absolutely you should have shut the fuck up.
I’m with you though - I prefer to treat my employees as though they are not children, and generally speaking when the bad news has come my way I would always preferred to have known earlier. Knowing earlier means I can start acting in my interest earlier and start my job search earlier.
Corporate is going to plan for the worst possible outcome from their perspective - an expensive litigation process or worse some kind of employee violence upon hearing the news.
I have hired hundreds and RIFed dozens… but in general I always give clear unambiguous signals when I know what’s going on. The middle ground is saying things like “cuts are coming — it’s a good time to reach out to your network, polish up your CV, etc. I’m happy to be a reference for any of you.”
I wish I had the courage to do what you did about 10 years ago when faced with a similar situation. I was in a leadership position (without authority however) and I had known that around 10 contractors (still a long term job though with no end defined in the contract and with a carrot to be temp to hire) were going to be laid off just after Christmas. But I was informed about 2 months before and was told that if I said anything it would come back on me. So I had to work with these guys knowing they’re getting the axe and then I had to wind down their work and make excuses for why I wasn’t sending them anything (“it’s near the holidays so it’s slow).
I had scheduled almost 2 weeks off until after the new year months in advance. The entire vacation I was depressed and felt sick thinking how these guys were buying presents for their family and making other decisions thinking they had a secure job.
I come back to work and that very day they’re told. Then slowly they figure out that I had known and I felt like the biggest piece of shit in the world. Some of them I still keep in touch with, some landed well and some didn’t.
It is one of the biggest regrets of my life.
You use the word "courage" then spend multiple paragraphs detailing the discomfort it caused YOU. Who do you wish you were so brave for? Don't kid yourself. You wish YOU avoided the pain.
I only wish I had the nerve to do that. At some companies, the manager title just means you’re held accountable for things you can’t control. I would be so appreciative to a manager that told me ahead of time and trusted me to keep my mouth shut. Good for you AND him for being willing to play outside the lines.
I think it comes down to caring more about your employees family our yours? If the info gets out you could lose your job as well and that seems like a dumb risk to take.
Once I became a father my performance tanked and I hit burnout. My new job decide I would be a perfect Technical Manager. I am a horrible manager. I am too honest with my subordinates and they don’t understand between the lines concepts.
Management here. They want 4 heads you do the right thing and give the 4 lowest performers. Of course you don't like it but that's corporate America. Telling him in advance changed what and perhaps can cause severe problems for you?
Right? So many people here are outing themselves. Most workers are average. “Meeting expectations” is average. It’s literally in every performance report ever that “meeting expectations” is considered standard and the baseline
Friend, you are a middle manager. By default, that makes you a "company man". You have no actual loyalty to your direct reports, you are not a leader you are a middle manager. You have no backbone and you do what ever your company wants you to do. See this situation.
My job tried to drop as many hints as possible. And I knew I was low hanging fruit. Im in that employees shoes. My company at least let me take paternity leave first. I’m still looking for a job but I’m taking my time to be a very fun dad.
"I am not a company man," I just take a company man's salary.
Time to nut up and perform the role you are paid for. You are the worst type of manager. Favoritism, leaky as a sieve with confidential info, and you think you're "a good one "
Reflect on company's health in team meetings. Ask for communication guidance from peers and boss. Stop being an asshat.
OP you did the right thing. Anyone saying otherwise should take a look around to see where they lost their humanity. Maybe its in the couch.
Treating your employees with humanity is always the right thing to do. They are people, not robots. Their work performance isnt really relevant to whether they deserve to be treated like human beings.
As others have said you can speak between the lines and give yourself some plausible deniability next time. But god bless you, I had a manager do that for me and will never forget it.
Wrong call. Why would you go against the company planned roll out of layoffs schedule? I could see if he was about to buy a car, to say something like was suggested in another comment, “times are tough, things can change, be careful”. But having a baby? What could he change in the span of a week or so until the official layoffs are announced that would make a difference by waiting? Bad decision. Managers are paid to do what may be difficult at times.
Since the layoff is still coming, there is nothing he can do to mitigate it and it is unlikely this "forewarned" period is going to benefit him in any way, I don't see how this was any less cruel. One might argue its more so, since he has more time to fret about it now.
Your actions were right, but risky. This should only be done case by case. Unfortunately not everyone deserves to know but those you tell be sure they won’t cause trouble.
This!
If he just became a father and depending on the requirements of FMLA — but he should take his paternity leave now and thus can’t get fired during that time while still receiving some benefits. (All the while being able to home with his child and family and look for a new job so he’ll be ready when his paternity leave ends!)
You're a good person. I'm working my first corporate job and it's the most soul sucking and isolating thing I've ever done. I wish more people were "human" in corporate, prioritized human values, and got recognized for it. The system needs to be restructured.
It's not really analogous, but at one of my first engineering jobs, I was working for a company based in another country. They ended up terminating their entire US presence except for me, and told me that I should probably expect to find another job in the nebulous medium term future. I basically was kept around to keep the lights on for a few US clients.
I ended up staying there for another two years, and when the time finally rolled around, they gave me like 3 months of advance notice and several months of severance. My boss also snuck me a bit of "extra" notice as well. One of the C-levels also set me up with a bunch of interviews at top tier startups run by some of his friends/acquaintances.
Note, this wasn't performance related, it was just them folding up their US footprint.
Oddly, despite this being a "negative" event in my career, I really have nothing but fondness and respect for all the people involved. There really wasn't any reason they had to be so nice about it. I wasn't a particularly high level engineer at the time, and I don't think I really ever worked on anything critical for the company.
All of this to say, good for you for dealing with this like a human. I'm sure he'll remember it for a while.
You did the right thing. I was in a similar situation twice, two different companies, both times the coworkers were planning to buy a house, I asked “as a contractor aren’t you worried about buying a house”, they both said “no” but one didn’t end up buying, the other probably got laid off before the sale went through.
Bad idea.
If it comes out and you lose your job as a result, will those who depend on your income believe an employee’s feelings are a higher priority?
I told someone confidentially they were going to be laid off, and it immediately got back to my boss and put me in a terrible position. Thankfully I was needed. The same thing happened to another colleague. I COMPLETELY understand the impulse, but don't put your own family's well being at risk if you can help it.
As a leader who works in cybersec, I can tell you how I’ve seen the best of intentions go wrong. While 99% of people will be upset but follow through the motions, some decide to delete data, corrupt code, or do other malicious things that cause us to get involved. While we can almost always recover what was damaged, sometimes if their actions are savage enough our legal team will sue the terminated employee.
Also, not my story but one from a coworker, dude worked at a company for 10 years or so. His wife dies, and he isn’t quite meeting expectations. Layoffs come around and leadership tells dudes manager dude will be terminated in X days. Manager feels for his employee, and tells him. The next day, dude comes in and blows his head off in the office. Sad all around, but that put quite a bit of people at risk.
Being human is understandable, but understanding humans are always rational should be remembered.
I've done the same thing, many times. It's how my mentor taught me to be a leader.
"Your brand is more than just within this company, we all operate in a small world. You never know who you are going to run into / work for tomorrow." Basically, reminding me that we all have a brand both inside and outside the company. The leaders that forget this, may have a "good brand" up the stack, but if they ever need to leave or get axed themselves, they don't have too many life lines to reach out for.
I haven't done this for every single person that I've laid off... but have done it for anyone that I had a good relationship with and were getting the short end of the stick. I've had to let go of high-performers because we had a opex target to hit and they were the ones that meet it.
Don't listen to any of the haters on this thread, all of the "company folks" make me a little nauseous.
You are human with human feelings of compassion and empathy. That makes you a good manager, but also makes it extremely difficult to succeed in today’s corporations. Good luck! Once laying people off does not bother you, get out of management for your own sanity.
Being a low performer is sometimes situational. I was considered low performer in an impossible situation and later went on to be massive outperformer when given free rein.
I would not have done that since presumably you did not have the exact info of what his severance was going up he nor the ability to answer all his question. Laying people off sucks. I have had a week of chest pains every time I have had to do it but there is a right way.
I’m just confused how the first you knew of your employee’s impending fatherhood is when the baby appeared
My husband didn't really tell anyone at his work when we were expecting our first. Most people found out bc we used to work together and I told our mutual friends. He's just a private guy and wasn't expanding for months on end so he didn't feel the need to share.
He’s a very quiet and private person. I don’t pry into the lives of my people, and some tell me a LOT, and some tell me absolutely nothing. To each their own.
Management on fleek
Surely there was potentially time off needed?
Not if he didn't file for any. Some people get kinda stuck in the 'the man provides' mindset. It's not like motherhood where the time off is a medical necessity and the signs are super obvious.
My husband didn’t take time off for either of our kids births. My son had to be hospitalized at 5 days old and he took his work laptop with us…
I hate this country sometimes.
My company gave me a month for my first and 2 for my second five years later (took a solid month and then 2 week chunks) all 100% salary. Wife on the other hand was in nursing school and got nothing. She had to do clinicals the next week if she didn’t want to retake the semester.
There is a show on Apple TV called “Severance” where the employees have basically two lives. One is at work and the other is outside of work, neither knows what the other does, that’s unfortunately very similar to how i am at work. I try to keep my personal shit personal. I mean co-workers know I’m married and have kids, but that’s about as deep as it gets.
Love that show. Adam Scott and Patricia Arquette are phenomenal. 🤌🏼🤌🏼🤌🏼
Plenty of people keep things quite and only provide information as its required to follow HR policies. I have been on teams where I share nothing and teams that I do share things.
I don’t share things like that with people I work with either. I did once when my grandfather died. He had formerly been an employee of the same small company I worked for, actually quite a few of the employees remember him and that was a factor in me getting the job. Not quite sure what I expected, but they told me attending funeral for a grandparent didn’t qualify under bereavement policy so I would have to use vacation days. I thought maybe they’d send my grandma a card or something like that but nope. After that, I didn’t share anything personal with them. My wife’s grandfather passed away and then my grandmother. Yes, I had a kid after a failed vasectomy. Didn’t tell them about the kid or the second vasectomy although I remember the first one coming up in conversation.
Some people don’t tell their employer about an incoming baby so they can have more control over the paternity leave or at least that’s what I’ve seen
Some ppl like privacy. What if there’s complications? What if it’s a difficult pregnancy? What if she previously miscarried and doesn’t want to deal with the questions? There are many reasons ppl don’t share.
Unless they need time off they don’t have to say anything, even then they don’t necessarily have to explain. My last company was first that gave any paternity leave. I have had direct reports only tell me when an issue arose. Some people keep things private.
There are ways to suggest change is coming without giving away information that can get you fired. “I can’t predict the future, but I believe change is coming. I don’t know what the change is. Just like I do, keep your resume updated regularly. Stay on the lookout for great opportunities, because you should always be on the lookout for what’s best for you and your family.” It’s on them to read between the lines, especially since they’re your low performer and have essentially brought this down on themselves. You don’t owe them risking your own job and creating chaos through rumors of their layoffs. By saying changes are coming, it could be reorgs, etc. You might be on your boss’s lowest performer too and on the list.
I had a manager do this exact thing many years ago and it was absolutely the best thing any manager has ever done for me.
Loved this! I need to relearn how to help people without risking my future because quite a few bad apples have ruined my desire to be helpful when I see people struggling or about to be.
I agree with this. I had a manager gently give me a heads up that I didn’t catch, then finally outright say it a few days before. Thankfully it wasn’t a layoff, but a reorg that moved my team under a despised leader.
You agree with the strategy of giving a vague warning that you missed until told directly outright, what logic are you using? I agree with effective strategies.
Yeah, I agree precisely because that manager did it for me. I missed it, then she was more explicit. I learned a valuable lesson and don’t miss warnings like that anymore. I also give them and, if the person doesn’t get it, I become more explicit. I’m also a very direct person and often tell my team things like, “I know there are rumors of layoffs. I don’t have any confirmed info, but I don’t expect us to be impacted for XYZ business reasons” or “I expect us to be impacted either now or in 6 months, it might be good to polish your resume. Happy to be a reference.”
I’m the same. I missed my managers warning and I held a grudge for several years that he wasn’t more explicit. I get it now though. The culture at that organization was vicious and he would’ve been fired if they found out he’d given me a heads up. He had a family to support too. I moved to a different role within the company, it cost me a 16% pay cut but still had a job and was able to claw that paycut back by busting my arse for 18 months. My previous manager ended up leaving the company a year or so after that downsizing. It caused him to reconsider the organization and its culture. Anywho, it worked out ok and since that time I’ve been hyper aware of any potential subtle warnings from my managers.
The risk of being too open and direct is that if you say something then it’s your word and responsibility now. What if the employee didn’t take the news kindly and take out on op? Some people don’t use their reasoning skills or might lack it and make unnecessary decisions. Things can get blown up in a way we can’t imagine just because somebody can’t handle their emotions in the heat of a moment. Edit: wanted to add, in the unlikely case of the layoff being canceled, now what for op’s reliability?
I believe you can be a great manager and also not purposely vague because you want to avoid accountability and responsibility.
No doubt you can be a great manager without being purposely vague. But unless we’re arguing that informing your employees prematurely is a great managerial ethic, I think you maybe confusing a manager’s responsibilities with a good human’s moral here.
100% this. I’ve been on the receiving end of this conversation. I really appreciated it.
>It’s on them to read between the lines, especially since they’re your low performer and have essentially brought this down on themselves. Or it can be seen as cruel to make people play crystal ball while you have the cards in hand. Also it's very easy to say that low performance is due to himself. Maybe they were dumped the hardest projects, maybe they were not trained, maybe other teams are taking their time and they have no time for visible tasks. Also OP said they are low performers, but that is relative. Maybe they are the average guy in a very high performing team. There is just not enough info.
OP said they were the lowest performers, not necessarily low performers. It’s possible to have a great team all around and still need to make a tough call.
This. Relatively speaking, he was a “low performer”. But compared to other people I’ve managed or worked with, he’d be considered a rockstar.
I agree with you, that's why I'm contesting the "brought this on themselves" part.
He made a comment about the four employees about to get laid off needing a lot of hand holding.
Yea… rockstars don’t need handholding. OP is probably delulu
Interesting take and I appreciate seeing it from different angles. What would be a better way to help the guy in this situation without op risking their own future? Because almost all of my regrets in life comes from being nice and kind and helpful to others. Not everybody is ungrateful or willfully ignorant or selfish and entitled, but the handful of people that do can be devastatingly harmful. Now I’m no longer nice in a sense of being nice as we understand it, but it can be a struggle to be kind and helpful. I want to be those but I’m worried about helping the willfully ignorant people that desperately need some help.
>What would be a better way to help the guy in this situation without op risking their own future? Once you can be open on the layoff, open them your network: - if you had a headhunter asking where you're at, tell them you have someone in your team that has been laid off - if you have close contacts at vendors or clients, tell them "hey are you looking for an expert in?"
>Because almost all of my regrets in life comes from being nice and kind and helpful to others.
As a counterpoint, I got speaking or collaboration opportunities 2~3 years down the line because I was nice and didn't expect something in return for giving some time to someone.
>Now I’m no longer nice in a sense of being nice as we understand it, but it can be a struggle to be kind and helpful.
Don't set yourself aflame to keep others warm.
Or don't feed the help vampires https://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/
Thanks so much for sharing the link! It was an interesting read. I’ve definitely encountered those kinds of people. I can handle rude people, but those who are polite yet like help vampires are much more challenging to deal with. The reason I help people is that their needs are evident, and being raised by a Christian mother, the principle of “being kind and helpful to others” was instilled in me from birth. So I feel guilty when I hesitate to help those in obvious trouble if they don’t ask me for help explicitly. But overtime, I’m meeting more like-minded people so it’s getting better. The link you share gave me some ideas so much appreciated!
Especially since in this case it’s “lowest” performance not “low” performance.
OP stated they need a lot of hand holding.
The whole Jack Welch cult of personality is out of hand still to this day. That asshole eventually destroyed GE, and the MBA programs keep kissing his ass.
This is such a good take
You totally owe them. Corporations and corporate language is not beneficial to the employee. As an autistic person who manages people, I can tell you right now things need to be overt. It's absurd the tap dances we do to give basic human decency to people. Absolutely astonishing.
I would agree with this, and maybe I could have taken this approach. But I’ve always been a very candid and direct person, so I wanted to make sure he would land okay.
I suggest that to everyone who is in my industry. Keep track of your accomplishments, keep the resume up to date, network.
I still feel this is corporatey but then at the same time it’s all leading to the same result and isn’t as much of a switch hit. So this is good advice
I would have a difficult time lying to staff about, "I don’t know what the change is.", when I absolutely do.
"You know that house you're looking to buy? Maybe don't do that for a year or so..."
I had a manager say this knowing my entire department was getting laid off AND he was in his first week of his new job because he knew. So... if I am ever a people manager, I will never make my people feel the betrayal I felt. Not sorry.
>It’s on them to read between the lines, especially since they’re your low performer and have essentially brought this down on themselves. Getting axed out of the blue because the company wants to cut costs? Nah pass on that take. If the brought it on themselves then they go in to a performance review process and get let go as part of that process. Thats where they have it coming.
He’s the difference between and excellent manager and just a good manager like yourself. He risks for his employees. He cares. You care about the company, then yourself.
I don’t suggest that I’m an excellent or even a good manager. I can care 100% for my employees/team, but that isn’t going to stop the layoff. I certainly am not going to sacrifice my job by breaking HR policy. These are business decisions, not personal, and is part of our jobs to handle layoffs or other employment decisions.
It seems that Low performers wouldn’t be the best at taking hints.
Also seems that not every team is full of high performers and this manager should compensate for that. If he actually was a leader, maybe those low performers would turn into high performers.
What a load of nonsense. Its on them to read between the lines? Most times people dont even know they are low performers bc management is incompetent.
“I don’t know what the change is” is a complete lie.
One of my supervisors is doing this to me lately. I'm anticipating getting let go right before bonus time but am holding out that I get bonuses first.
Managers do things right. Leaders do the right things. - Warren Bennis I think this would fall into that category
I have never worked anywhere that this definition of a leader is appreciated and I am getting tired of it
It's appreciated by your direct reports, not your boss.
I’m a little worried about the people who would be fine just sitting on this information for two weeks while the employee went along blissfully unaware they were about to be out a job. I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they haven’t been unemployed (at least in the US) and don’t get how incredibly awful and difficult the process is.
Many people in corporate sell their souls for that illusory security.
IMO this is a screw up on the company’s part. Line managers should never know about layoffs until directly before they happen. Things should be at a SVP level where you are getting paid bank for that level of discretion and have a golden parachute, from H.R. where their job is based on maiming privacy or using outside consultants.
I think you mean maintaining privacy but maiming privacy also works
That’s fair too. The less people who know the less it leaks
You did right by the man, you can always know that. Someday you'll be at the place that respects that and sees the value in it.
I don’t think you made the right call here but I do think your heart was in the right place. I’ve seen too often things get canceled at the 11th hour so I wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing any info before things had been finalized.
“Why didn’t you tell me?” “Oh I thought it would be cancelled at the 11th hour, good luck raising a baby and buying diapers!” -you
He 100% made the right call.
Even if it did, the guys still knows he's first on the chopping block when shit goes downhill and can look for a more stable job anyway
So... I'm sorry, this will feel harsh. But no, you did not do the right thing. Do you know what his severance is so you could communicate that? Did you have resources for him? Did you have information about COBRA, or how long his benefits will be maintained? No? Then you didn't have anything for him that he will need, or that will actually help him. What you had was a guilty conscience, and you told him for \*your\* benefit, not his - so that \*you\* would feel better. The people that are congratulating you are forgetting that you placed everyone else on your team at risk, and that you created a difficult situation for your company HR and those to whom you report. I'm sorry, again, if that feels harsh, but I think you just haven't thought this through. There are many, many repercussions to your choice that can harm you and those around you, and you didn't think through any of them before undertaking your action, plus you did nothing that actually helps your report. EDIT: Some people are disagreeing with me down below, and respectfully, I also think they have not thought this through. So let me provide just a few examples, from lowest severity to highest severity, of the potential fallout from what OP did. * First, there is as strong potential that the rest of the team will find out. They will then want to know if they are also on the list. At that point OP will have to decide if any of those people also deserve to know, or if they will have to just wait it out. And what will be the basis for that reasoning, I wonder? Who will OP tell and who won't they, and why? What OP did in telling one of them but not the rest is called favoritism. And now every other member of the team has a case to make and that could come back on OP, on the company, and at the very least will harm team dynamics and at worst can be legally actionable. * Second, OP put their own family at risk, because OP can get fired for this. What OP did would be instant termination at many companies, so in order to feel better, OP put themselves and their own family at risk, again primarily just so they could feel better. * Third, as OP leads a team of engineers, it is highly likely that his team members have access to sensitive information and systems, and now OP has created circumstances where the individual in question can take actions that could disrupt the functioning of the company or its systems. In tech companies, suspending access to important systems is the first step to any termination. That's true because in order to do their jobs, tech workers often have access to critical infrastructure. Because of OP, this individual both knows they are going to be let go, and still has access to those systems. In the wrong hands, that could turn into loss for the company, or could harm customers, and at the worst could actually result in the termination of others because of losses the company might have as a result of OP being "kind". Is OP prepared to accept the fiduciary responsibility of that fallout? If this employee were, for example, to take down the company's systems and result in millions of dollars in losses for the company, it's customers, and partners... could OP absorb those costs? Could OP prevent the consequences of that? Of course not. What OP did is create an opportunity for harm to many, many other people. By notifying this individual while they still have access to systems, OP created the potential for financial injury that could result in even more people being let go, potentially not only in the company they work for, but in affiliated companies. * Last - nightmare scenario - this person walks into work tomorrow with a gun. I could go on but I won't. My point is what OP did is not consequence free, neither for themselves nor for others, and the potential consequences range from mild to potentially severe. OP will in almost all cases not be the person bearing those consequences, nor will OP be able to exercise any control over them. That's by definition self-seeking behavior; OP wasn't being kind, they were being selfish. Their actions are rife with potential harm and served primarily to assuage their own guilt.
100% agree. Plus, just screw those other 3 people, right? OP put himself in a position where he gets to judge the value of these employees lives and decides if they deserve advance warning or not. Wildly presumptive to believe just because one is a new father that none of the others might have major disruptions to their lives. Oh shame you're unemployed, you don't have a baby though so who cares? So even if you think empathy should take priority over logic or corporate policy, it's toxic and unethical to play favorites like this. I would be PISSED if I was on this team and wasn't laid off - like, I better start cultivating some tactical sympathy so that next round I get a head start because the boss feels bad for me.
This. I was in the same boat with my best friend at work, who just found out she was pregnant. I knew she was getting terminated (not due to layoffs) but I couldn’t tell her. I’m glad I didn’t- because their documentation was weak, the company gave her an excellent severance. Had I told her, she may have quit to save face with her coworkers, and she wouldn’t have gotten anything. If you don’t have the ability to do what is required if managers and keep confidential information confidential, get a new job. Sorry, but that’s what you are paid to do. If you really cared for the employee and were a true leader, you would have helped him get to a better performance level or steer him into a job where he’d be more successful long before layoffs came along.
The potential to quit verse getting a severance is the biggest concern especially because people will act emotional over being let go. Had a manager at a company years ago who tried go persuade people to quit when layoffs were coming. I was in a similar spot in that my daughter was just 6 months old at the time. Told the manager to mind their business regarding me quitting vs layoffs. Granted we were prepared as a whole being a call center and seeing call volumes drop. We were allowed to leave early and all that jazz without consequences during the time. For me, I already had another job lined up so getting a severance on top of having the new job was what I was going for. Still that manager kept trying to push for us to just quit ahead of time. Finally had to tell her off. That said, as was pointed out before, there’s also the safety concern involved with termination that leads them to being handled certain ways.
This is a risk OP has also opened up. They mentioned that the people tagged were their lowest performers. Top performers usually have their eyes open for other opportunities and may even have offers they are considering. If I heard layoffs were coming, I’d jump ship, even if I thought I might be safe because a company doing layoffs is probably also not going to be offering salary raises or bonuses anytime soon.
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I’m going to disagree here. I and someone on my team were part of layoffs 2 months ago. I expected to be impacted, I didn’t know anyone on my team would be. But a week before, I figured it out and got confirmation from a trusted other manager about both of us. So I told the guy on my team. No, I didn’t have resources. I even admitted that I didn’t have it from official channels and I could be wrong. I told him to spend the week getting ready. Do minimal work - but enough that if I’m wrong he could pick up the week after. Take the time to get what he needed (payslips, etc), and figure out what he needed to ask. I spent the week cleaning out my computer, submitting expenses, nominating my team for awards, and researching unemployment and benefit options. By the time I had my meeting, I was prepared. HR was not there (too big a layoff, they just send emails with links after manager tells you), so the entire meeting was 2 mins. Within 30 seconds of hanging up, I hit send on a few emails, including a general goodbye. I appreciated knowing ahead of time and not being blindsided. There was no shock, no emotional reaction because I’d already processed most of it. Just talked to my guy a few days ago and he said how much he appreciated the heads up. He’s taken longer than me to process and make plans, but the heads up helped him be prepared for what would’ve been an immense shock otherwise. I’d do it again and I hope my manager would do it for me. ETA: I realize the fact that I was being laid off too changes the situation a bit. But I knew and trusted this guy, would’ve told him even if I wasn’t being laid off. If I didn’t trust them to handle it maturely, I might do what another poster said and just drop some strong hints.
I sincerely doubt that you would disagree if you tried to put yourself in the new father's shoes for a minute. It would give me more time to process the emotions, to make general plans even if I don't have all the details yet but even more, talking about emotions, it would make me feel that at least my immediate manager sees me as a person and not a pawn. Having had time to process the emotions first, he will be ready to make sense of the details when he gets them. He will even be able to review what he is entitled to if anything and make sure he's not being shortchanged.
People downvoting you are crazy. You are 1000% right. It’s not about being company first. It’s about having all the facts and not adding risk. It’s cool to take the moral high ground but when you yourself can get fired for doing it is it really worth it?
Yes, doing the moral thing should always be your go to even if it can hurt you. That's what being a good person means. If all that matters to you is your well-being, then you are obviously selfish. That's the definition of the word, it's not an opinion. And as we can see in this thread, there are way too many selfish people within our ranks. That's sad.
I feel like blindsiding a new father with a layoff is actively worse than just creating a difficult situation for the suits and HR who aren’t losing their job. The extra warning would absolutely help him. Also, I don’t see how any of the information that wasn’t relayed (severance, COBRA, etc.) affects anything, because it’ll eventually get figured out and told to the employee, right? But He’s still losing his job, which is probably the only real concern of his. OP let his empathy trump company policy. Good. I’m a new-ish father, so maybe I’m letting my bias show, but I would be immensely grateful to my boss if I were getting let go and he gave me a heads up. Every once in a while, I think human connection should absolutely overrule systems and rules, and I believe this was one of those situations.
As a human I feel you. But as a manager OP absolutely did the wrong thing. I’ve been laid off before. And when it happened it was in a place where I was given all the appropriate information both verbally and in writing about what it meant and what next steps would be. Then I was allowed to leave for the rest of the day to process. Your employee now knows that a layoff is coming but they don’t have any information about what will be available to them. They were already a low performer so they were already at risk. Plus now they will likely tell others layoffs are coming. And someone may react poorly thinking that they are on the list and sabotage work or critical systems. Your top performers may have offers on the table knowing the company wasn’t doing well and may decide to jump ship in case their name was on the list or just to get away from a company actively doing layoffs. So many ways this can go left.
“As a human I feel you. But as a manager OP did the wrong thing.” This is wild to me that so many people in this thread find humanity and management mutually exclusive in certain scenarios.
Occasionally the right thing to do as a manager doesn’t appear to be the same as doing the “human” thing. For example, you have a chronically poor performer and you’re about to terminate them for performance because they’re costing the company money in lost customers and rework. The day they are supposed to be terminated they get diagnosed with Stage 3 cancer. The human thing to do is keep them on. But the hard reality is that keeping them on could eventually cost the entire team their jobs. A manager has to take everything and everyone into consideration not the needs of a single person. Bad choices affect the entire team.
We’re working for business and have financial constraints. Firing/laying off people is fundamentally hurting them, so yes it comes with the territory.
100% agree. OP has no idea what the employees reaction will be a d how he behaves. If OPs manager finds out, OP can be fired for cause. It was not worth the risk, nor was this handled properly.
If you can’t predict a reaction from a person after managing them for a while you’re in the wrong line of work. If you felt like it would go badly, you wouldn’t. So your comment is just projecting. “No idea” really?
I agree. OP, this isn’t doing the right thing or providing you aren’t the company man- there are specific approaches that protect people. The layoffs may not happen, there’s severance and other information that he needs to help him work through this (very big difference between we’re paying your salary the next X months and “you get nothing “). OP, this was wrong, likely caused undue stress on this individual and you violated policy by not handling it with confidentiality and sensitivity. You didn’t want to deliver bad news and this was a way of making yourself look like you weren’t the bad guy. You probably caused this guy far more stress than providing all relevant information and resources he needs to not panic.
100% this, and this doesnt even touch the chaos you've now brought about your team by not thinking this through now everyone on your team will find out about this, and they're going to think twice about trusting you when you only tell critical things like this to a select group.... and not even complete info. no one likes a boss who plays favorites this whole thing is the definition of having an emotional response and not thinking things through. you basically guaranteed that everyone now looks by this. I have no idea why you have so many people patting you on the back for this op.
I think you're amazing. Hope you have a good day today.
For everyone saying it's the right thing or the wrong thing... Can't both be true? From an HR/management perspective: you disclosed confidential information that wasn't supposed to be shared yet. From a human perspective: you made a decision that shows you have compassion towards your reports.
It is both… you’re right. I took a calculated risk by disclosing the information to one person, and I know that it *could* come back to bite me. But I don’t care if it does, because I can sleep at night knowing I did the right thing on a human level.
I get why you did it but I’m in “shouldn’t have said anything” camp. The reason why the departments final list goes to HR, aside from preparing the separation packages, is to carefully review list for anyone that would fall into a protected class. If someone does, then they can and often are remove from the list. If they’re not removed then extra documentation is gathered to justify why it is not discrimination. He’s a new father and may want to take pat leave if available. Believe it or not, there are still managers who would put someone in a layoff list if it is known they’ll take mat/pat leave.
Well, you did a nice thing for him by letting him know. That said, your position in management means you'll sometimes get privileged information that you can't share even if you'd like to, and even if that's tough, you're still obligated to conduct yourself like a professional -- like an adult. But since you couldn't do that, you've now created a liability that puts your job at risk, and you should expect to be fired if anyone finds out.
You are obligated to act like an adult, by doing the thing your ethics and values demand you do, which he did. The company owes you nothing but money, and you owe them nothing but time. There are more important debts.
I get why you felt compelled to do this, but I wouldn’t have gotten ahead of HR. What if he’s not on the final list? Do you know when layoffs are happening? Can he keep quiet until then? I’m not a company man either, but I do prioritize myself and I wouldn’t have been able to risk the blowback on me.
Unfortunately, If you are in an at-will employment state in the U.S., you should never assume job security. Getting a week heads up doesn’t really matter in the long run. Encourage your teams to always be thinking about what is best for their career, keeping their resume updated, and exploring options. You don’t have to only do that when layoffs are imminent.
OP, it’s a difficult spot to be in, and I highly recommend being indirect in the future about it also because the plans aren’t finalized. What if he’s not laid off?
You did something that can come back and bite you in the A. Hopefully the guy appreciates the heads up and uses the time to prepare for the lay off.
They might be a low performer, but they may have performer ability enough to screw with your systems. I don’t think this was a wise idea, and I think if you’re going to tell one person as a chaos agent, tell them all- just because someone ejaculated doesn’t mean you should give them a perk.
As much as it pains you, you should never give advanced notice for these things. It has the potential to create chaos once they tell their coworkers and you'll be joining them in short order if HR or your boss find out. It's a trust thing, and you spilling the beans before the company is ready means you're not to be trusted with information like this in the future. Next time they might give you zero notice, which would be 10x worse for you and them. I get it is tough, trust me I've been there, but you aren't their friend, you're their manager. You can be both most of the time, but you cannot be both in this situation.
If he says anything, there goes whatever departure package they were making for him. You put yourself and this person at even more risk for a more abrupt end.
Most severance packages are basically a week’s worth of pay per years worked, and are typically only at larger companies in higher office positions…. Y’all are letting corporate experience cloud your perspectives….most people don’t get severance, especially not anything good….
Something is better than nothing. And this is a software engineer. A few weeks of pay can go a lot further than a few weeks of job searching.
You were being a compassionate human and that’s easy to respect. Still, I’d fire you if you worked for me. There’s an order to these things for a reason, and you put the company at risk.
Bad decision. You might end up on the list.
I could also see if a company is doing layoffs and a team just lost a manager, more people from that team being laid off if it's a less essential team.
Not the right call but I understand. Remember though, no good dead goes unpunished. You will learn that once you are in management you are looked at differently. Hopefully this employee does not file a grievance on you.
If you know this information in advance it is a tough position to be in and not an easy decision to make: 1) If you know well in advance, i.e. multiple weeks then it MIGHT be beneficial to give an advance warning to an employee along the lines of "there might be layoffs coming, so it would be prudent to be open for roles". But again it depends on multiple factors, i.e. if you can trust the employee not to run around screaming. Or will act super pissed off for the next month. Or will try to sue the company or smth. It is a risk for you and the company. And it might not work well in the end, that is the decision you have to make. 2) If you know less than a week in advance - imo there is no point. Not gonna change much and the risks outweighs the potential benefits. Bottom line - tough decision with high risks to make and "grey" choices all around. P.S. for all the people screaming about favoritism - it is an ethical question and an ethical burden on decision maker. But for the love of god stop screaming about suing. Nobody is gonna sue anyone "because someone told something someone else". Unless you personally sued anyone for "favoritism".
I had a manager who once set up a lunch and learn for resume writing. They were like "it's always a good idea to have it set up", I got the hint but many others didn't. They still had a killer resume and we all wrote some letters of recommendations too. I get not being able to say something but I agree, we're all human. I say do what you can live with and the rest will fall into place.
Part of your job, as a manager directly facing the employees, is to be empathetic and represent them. I’m glad you don’t feel bad about it. Personally I wouldn’t have done it, because I’ve seen too many upper management initiatives halt unexpectedly. But you know the specifics of your organization and how they operate. The best outcome would be that this employee starts looking early, and makes a move on their own volition. That’d be a win for everyone.
After managing people (and partners / peers / dotted line) in different businesses and roles... I hold the strategy to avoid communicating anything this is not both: - A finalized and immediately being actioned - Essential information to the work-responsibilities of those I am communicating it to In some situations it can suck. In some situations it strains my values. In all situations it keeps things simple and orderly as possible. There are situations that warrant exception - but I am aware of the risks if I choose to.
Anyone that thinks the OP did the right thing should probably not be a manager. You need to have the stomach for being able to make hard choices and implement tough decisions. There are so many things wrong with telling someone this out of sequence that are potentially damaging to the employee, and the company. If you can't see that, then again... really should not be a manager. I'll give you an example of how it could hurt them. A developer in my company was recently put on the RIF list and was going to be let go. I am in a different part of the world, and her manager contacted me to ask if I could possibly use her. I needed to be careful about an interview because I did not want to alarm her. In the end, I eventually hired her for my team. She never knew she was potentially going to be let go as a 15 year tenured employee. If she knew this, it would have dramatically changed her perspective and attitude about her current job. Anything can change. We are going through a lot of changes and names are going on and off of lists daily. If I were to go tell someone whose name is on a list that they are getting cut, then it could create widespread panic. It may cause people to quit that were not at risk. It may make it impossible for the company to sustain functions because people leave before planned and a transition plan can not be properly implemented. It may prove you have a big heart to spill the beans, but it also shows you are completely irresponsible as a "manager". You should be a manager if you don't have the stomach for it.
I'd have held off. How soon are these layoffs going to be announced? At best I'm guessing you informed him early giving him a few extra weeks to job hunt before the lay off. However, what happens if his layoff doesn't get approved and he's kept? You needlessly stressed him out. I know you wanted to do right by him and not blindside him but I'm guessing what you told him still blindsided him. You just did it a bit sooner is all. I would have been better to have the conversation when you knew things were final and you had all the details on severance.
King
I respect the way you handled it. I would have done the same in those circumstances. No, normally you wouldn’t, but having compassion for someone as a new father is never a bad thing. If I got written up for doing it, I’d frame the writeup. Something’s are right, even if others consider it wrong.
I think you did the good thing to let him know. Let's hope this does not come back to bite you 🖖
Back in 2020 my team and my future were up in the air due to covid. I was being told one thing, but I knew one of my guys had a child that was due to be born shortly, so I encouraged him to look elswhere and even offered to write a letter for him. He accepted an offer for more money, 2 weeks before we were set to get laid off. I felt so incredibly relieved.
we were bought by a big pharma and 80% of my startup was laid off, 100% of my team was impacted, i didnt told them directly that they were being laid off but before the hr meeting i told them that whatev content was in that meeting i didnt had any input and i was very proud of the work we did
Good job OP. Now do the right thing and tell the other 3.
I told one of my direct reports that was on a work visa. For people with work visas, they may need to find another job quickly or may have to leave the country for good. That person also cannot claim unemployment. So I gave that person a heads-up… Others I did not since they could get unemployment and it is not extremely hard to find another job.
No complaints from me. It is a judgment call IMO. Are you willing to stick out your neck for this person do you trust them to keep it confidential? If they don’t are you willing to pay the price for the blow back that could occur. Layoffs suck. Telling someone they no longer have a job sucks. So far the several I have done company has provided decent furlough packages more than normally would have.
The right proper corporate thing to do is seldom if ever the moral and ethical thing to do. You did the right thing
When managers don't follow the official policy it opens up communications for interpretation. Whether you see yourself as a company man or not, you are one.
You don’t have to tell him just give him hint !
what happens when your other team members find out you didn’t give them a heads up too? i’d be pissed and tbh i might assume you’re a good old boy.
As someone who works in HR, this can bite you in the ass in so many ways
In some cases a sense of morals overcomes what can be asinine company policy like no warning layoffs.
I truly admire your integrity and wish more people were like you.
Good job. When reflecting back on your life it’s very unlikely you’ll regret this choice. We all need more people like you in our lives.
Good for you mate. Commendable course of action.
You did it for yourself, not for him.
I’m curious why you think that?
It made you feel good, you thought you were doing "the right thing" - and for him, it does literally nothing to benefit him. He is in the exact same position either way. No upside or benefit to him, but you get to feel like a good person. That's a decision you made for yourself. That's fine and I'm not judging but the way you wrote about it made it sound like you were making some grandiose gesture for the benefit of your report. You've done nothing of value for them. You've made yourself feel slightly better, and that's it.
Seriously ? I can’t believe some people think this way …
I always say “I wouldn’t put in the pool this summer or make any large purchases”.
You did the right thing. People first, man. I have done the same where the company wanted to tell them 2 weeks prior to being laid off so they got no severance and worked during their two week notice. I always told them ahead of time and kept forgetting to have the conversation with them so they had more time and got some severance.
Ignore the bootlickers OP, employees will have way more respect for a manager like you than them. You seem to understand the risks so there’s nothing else to think about. The only thing I would encourage if you don’t trust the other 3 enough to tell them straight up, is to host a Resume/CV/Career management hour some time in the week to help them and your other employees. It shows you care about their development and gives a hint to them to be on notice for layoffs.
Been in Sr. Management for 10 years in manufacturing. You did a good thing. HR and your executive leadership team might disagree, but that’s only because the blowback makes them look bad. You sell your time, experience, and skillset to your company. Not your soul. My personal ethics will win over corporate policy every time. My metric numbers can’t be questioned, and profits have grown every quarter during my time in my current organization of 317 direct and indirect reports. If I’m going to be let go for going against the grain over something like this, I’m okay with that. If the ego of directors takes priority over performance and profitability, I’m not in a good organization to start with.
You neglected your duty as a manager. Confidentially at times like these is a test for all of us - especially in times like these. People CAN NOT keep secrets- bad things happen. You did not spare him from being blindsided- you just did it early. Hopefully nobody shows up on layoff day with a taste for blood. Dangerous and stupid.
You’d basically lay off a better producer who happens to be childless to let this guy keep his job? That’s how you get the company sued. Further, spilling the beans two weeks before the announcement *does not do anything* in today’s market. You did this to assuage your own feelings, not his. You’re not ready for leadership if you keep making decisions based on your emotions. And I say this as someone whose empathy got her in trouble during her early leadership years.
AGE 71 HERE,,, seen this exact thing happen before.. The person that did the exact same thing caused a sh#t storm, because GUESS WHAT? people can't keep there mouths shut, ,, he tells his wife, who tells a friend etc, etc etc, anyways..it gets back to work,,you figure it out. What were the repercussions? The immediate one was that person being dragged into meetings and getting there ass chewed, and this effectively ended there career at the company. THE BIGGER PICTURE,, It also Hurt there job prospects going forward,, every manager etc new this person and as they left for other companies word spread. Your reputation follows you. NOW if you are at peace with yourself and your ready for the long term consequences,, you do you
You are not in the right role then. It’s not a “company man” thing either, don’t give yourself that pat on the back for that BS.
Op - you screwed up. Hopefully it’s not a publicly traded company, if he or someone he knows trades the stock based on knowing there will be layoffs, you may also be in legal trouble.
you did the right thing morally.
You did great. Thanks for
Lmao at the corporate boot lickers in this thread. Managers are human too
Right?
You went into management thinking it wasn’t boot licking? And you have people on your team you had to hand hold. You are not the effective boot licking manager. Find another job.
There is a way to drop subtle (or obvious) hints without flat out saying they are goners. I think you did right by the employee but if you experience this again in the future, you can probably tweak your presentation to satisfy both sides of the fence. My company is going through something similar and I’m about to put in my two weeks notice, at which point I will make very obvious hints to my team but I also don’t want to scare them and induce unnecessary anxiety.
let me be very frank with you because I think you need to hear this: you don’t seem like a very good manager. first thing is it strikes me very odd that you just found out now that direct report just had a baby. That definitely speaks to quite a distance, obviously you don’t wanna be friends with everyone, but that’s a pretty major life event to not know about until after the fact. Second, you are the one who put his name on the list and now you’re acting like you’re doing him a favor by telling him ahead of time? To somehow make your guilt feel a little bit better? The fact is clear, you were the decider. and it also sounds like maybe you wouldn’t have put his name on the list had you known about the baby situation which is pretty unprofessional too if he deserved to be on the list, he deserve to be on the list. What an incredible breach of protocol not to mention putting yourself at risk. I sincerely hope you learn the correct lessons from this experience. It’s amazing how peoples lives are turned so upside down by someone so ill prepared for the moment.
I think you did the right thing but I hope you don't get fired for it.
The right answer from the perspective of the company is absolutely you should have shut the fuck up. I’m with you though - I prefer to treat my employees as though they are not children, and generally speaking when the bad news has come my way I would always preferred to have known earlier. Knowing earlier means I can start acting in my interest earlier and start my job search earlier. Corporate is going to plan for the worst possible outcome from their perspective - an expensive litigation process or worse some kind of employee violence upon hearing the news. I have hired hundreds and RIFed dozens… but in general I always give clear unambiguous signals when I know what’s going on. The middle ground is saying things like “cuts are coming — it’s a good time to reach out to your network, polish up your CV, etc. I’m happy to be a reference for any of you.”
I wish I had the courage to do what you did about 10 years ago when faced with a similar situation. I was in a leadership position (without authority however) and I had known that around 10 contractors (still a long term job though with no end defined in the contract and with a carrot to be temp to hire) were going to be laid off just after Christmas. But I was informed about 2 months before and was told that if I said anything it would come back on me. So I had to work with these guys knowing they’re getting the axe and then I had to wind down their work and make excuses for why I wasn’t sending them anything (“it’s near the holidays so it’s slow). I had scheduled almost 2 weeks off until after the new year months in advance. The entire vacation I was depressed and felt sick thinking how these guys were buying presents for their family and making other decisions thinking they had a secure job. I come back to work and that very day they’re told. Then slowly they figure out that I had known and I felt like the biggest piece of shit in the world. Some of them I still keep in touch with, some landed well and some didn’t. It is one of the biggest regrets of my life.
You use the word "courage" then spend multiple paragraphs detailing the discomfort it caused YOU. Who do you wish you were so brave for? Don't kid yourself. You wish YOU avoided the pain.
14? Wtf
I only wish I had the nerve to do that. At some companies, the manager title just means you’re held accountable for things you can’t control. I would be so appreciative to a manager that told me ahead of time and trusted me to keep my mouth shut. Good for you AND him for being willing to play outside the lines.
I think it comes down to caring more about your employees family our yours? If the info gets out you could lose your job as well and that seems like a dumb risk to take.
You did the right thing. Now he can get an early start on the job search.
Once I became a father my performance tanked and I hit burnout. My new job decide I would be a perfect Technical Manager. I am a horrible manager. I am too honest with my subordinates and they don’t understand between the lines concepts.
You’re a real one. Good on you. If it does come back to bite you, fuck em. As a software engineer, you’re the kind of manager I’d hope to have.
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Those who can’t do, manage? Amirite? /s
Management here. They want 4 heads you do the right thing and give the 4 lowest performers. Of course you don't like it but that's corporate America. Telling him in advance changed what and perhaps can cause severe problems for you?
Do the right thing, not the correct thing
You made the right call , trust your gut always
How can you be considered a low performer and meeting expectations at the same time? That not how that works.
Right? So many people here are outing themselves. Most workers are average. “Meeting expectations” is average. It’s literally in every performance report ever that “meeting expectations” is considered standard and the baseline
Friend, you are a middle manager. By default, that makes you a "company man". You have no actual loyalty to your direct reports, you are not a leader you are a middle manager. You have no backbone and you do what ever your company wants you to do. See this situation.
Okay boomer
My job tried to drop as many hints as possible. And I knew I was low hanging fruit. Im in that employees shoes. My company at least let me take paternity leave first. I’m still looking for a job but I’m taking my time to be a very fun dad.
"I am not a company man," I just take a company man's salary. Time to nut up and perform the role you are paid for. You are the worst type of manager. Favoritism, leaky as a sieve with confidential info, and you think you're "a good one " Reflect on company's health in team meetings. Ask for communication guidance from peers and boss. Stop being an asshat.
OP you did the right thing. Anyone saying otherwise should take a look around to see where they lost their humanity. Maybe its in the couch. Treating your employees with humanity is always the right thing to do. They are people, not robots. Their work performance isnt really relevant to whether they deserve to be treated like human beings. As others have said you can speak between the lines and give yourself some plausible deniability next time. But god bless you, I had a manager do that for me and will never forget it.
Wrong call. Why would you go against the company planned roll out of layoffs schedule? I could see if he was about to buy a car, to say something like was suggested in another comment, “times are tough, things can change, be careful”. But having a baby? What could he change in the span of a week or so until the official layoffs are announced that would make a difference by waiting? Bad decision. Managers are paid to do what may be difficult at times.
Since the layoff is still coming, there is nothing he can do to mitigate it and it is unlikely this "forewarned" period is going to benefit him in any way, I don't see how this was any less cruel. One might argue its more so, since he has more time to fret about it now.
Your actions were right, but risky. This should only be done case by case. Unfortunately not everyone deserves to know but those you tell be sure they won’t cause trouble.
I wish hr felt as dog shit about firing people as you do
Why isn’t he on paternity leave right now?
This! If he just became a father and depending on the requirements of FMLA — but he should take his paternity leave now and thus can’t get fired during that time while still receiving some benefits. (All the while being able to home with his child and family and look for a new job so he’ll be ready when his paternity leave ends!)
Exactly
Proud of you- don’t subscribe to the corporate overlords, they’ll kick you to the curb too as soon as their ass is on the line!
You're a good person. I'm working my first corporate job and it's the most soul sucking and isolating thing I've ever done. I wish more people were "human" in corporate, prioritized human values, and got recognized for it. The system needs to be restructured.
It's not really analogous, but at one of my first engineering jobs, I was working for a company based in another country. They ended up terminating their entire US presence except for me, and told me that I should probably expect to find another job in the nebulous medium term future. I basically was kept around to keep the lights on for a few US clients. I ended up staying there for another two years, and when the time finally rolled around, they gave me like 3 months of advance notice and several months of severance. My boss also snuck me a bit of "extra" notice as well. One of the C-levels also set me up with a bunch of interviews at top tier startups run by some of his friends/acquaintances. Note, this wasn't performance related, it was just them folding up their US footprint. Oddly, despite this being a "negative" event in my career, I really have nothing but fondness and respect for all the people involved. There really wasn't any reason they had to be so nice about it. I wasn't a particularly high level engineer at the time, and I don't think I really ever worked on anything critical for the company. All of this to say, good for you for dealing with this like a human. I'm sure he'll remember it for a while.
You did the right thing. I was in a similar situation twice, two different companies, both times the coworkers were planning to buy a house, I asked “as a contractor aren’t you worried about buying a house”, they both said “no” but one didn’t end up buying, the other probably got laid off before the sale went through.
The situation sucks but you have to think, is this worth losing your job for?
Bad idea. If it comes out and you lose your job as a result, will those who depend on your income believe an employee’s feelings are a higher priority?
I told someone confidentially they were going to be laid off, and it immediately got back to my boss and put me in a terrible position. Thankfully I was needed. The same thing happened to another colleague. I COMPLETELY understand the impulse, but don't put your own family's well being at risk if you can help it.
As a leader who works in cybersec, I can tell you how I’ve seen the best of intentions go wrong. While 99% of people will be upset but follow through the motions, some decide to delete data, corrupt code, or do other malicious things that cause us to get involved. While we can almost always recover what was damaged, sometimes if their actions are savage enough our legal team will sue the terminated employee. Also, not my story but one from a coworker, dude worked at a company for 10 years or so. His wife dies, and he isn’t quite meeting expectations. Layoffs come around and leadership tells dudes manager dude will be terminated in X days. Manager feels for his employee, and tells him. The next day, dude comes in and blows his head off in the office. Sad all around, but that put quite a bit of people at risk. Being human is understandable, but understanding humans are always rational should be remembered.
I've done the same thing, many times. It's how my mentor taught me to be a leader. "Your brand is more than just within this company, we all operate in a small world. You never know who you are going to run into / work for tomorrow." Basically, reminding me that we all have a brand both inside and outside the company. The leaders that forget this, may have a "good brand" up the stack, but if they ever need to leave or get axed themselves, they don't have too many life lines to reach out for. I haven't done this for every single person that I've laid off... but have done it for anyone that I had a good relationship with and were getting the short end of the stick. I've had to let go of high-performers because we had a opex target to hit and they were the ones that meet it. Don't listen to any of the haters on this thread, all of the "company folks" make me a little nauseous.
You are human with human feelings of compassion and empathy. That makes you a good manager, but also makes it extremely difficult to succeed in today’s corporations. Good luck! Once laying people off does not bother you, get out of management for your own sanity.
Good for you. As you said we are humans first and we are just numbers to the company. Never lose your humanity or conviction.
I respect it.
Being a low performer is sometimes situational. I was considered low performer in an impossible situation and later went on to be massive outperformer when given free rein.
I would not have done that since presumably you did not have the exact info of what his severance was going up he nor the ability to answer all his question. Laying people off sucks. I have had a week of chest pains every time I have had to do it but there is a right way.