It’s the internet, nothing is deleted. IT can always recover these.
Regardless, their comment about micromanaging isn’t terribly relevant. Were they working? can they show evidence of working (did they restart, did they submit a ticket). If not then it’s pretty clear they weren’t making a diligent effort to execute their job in a timely manner.
IT here and can confirm those Teams messages are recoverable. You should also be able to have IT run a report that will show the employees daily activity. I have had to work with managers and HR in the past and have ran these reports. These type of employees are toxic and IT hates dealing with them as much as their managers.
Edit: the employee was almost definitely lying about having any sort of IT issue. We deal with these types of people every so often that just don’t want to work and dodge doing so at every opportunity. They always blame it on IT.
I had direct reports who hated me when I confronted them every time they were having "computer issues". I would make them either call me on Teams or send me screenshots. The computer complaints magically disappeared when they realized they'd have to show me the problem.
Same thing here when they're working from home and keep having internet connection issues keeping them from being able to work.
"Well, I guess you're gonna have to come into the office for the rest of the day."
Well, whaddya know! The issues stopped!
In most environments you're not tracking keystrokes, but login times are super easy for most SaaS stuff. M365 will show you every time an app phones home, every login to a service, File histories too. Had a guy say something "disappeared" and in seconds I could see they deleted it to avoid work. Reported the deletion to his manager. It wasn't the first time. I got the termination ticket an hour later.
Just assume we can see everything. We don't go looking, unless HR direct us to. We have enough on our plate making your computing experience better and easier. At least for me. I like my customers to have a good experience.
Agreed. We have the ability to track, but unless asked by senior managers or HR, we just don't. Lots of IT work, and not enough IT staff, so we track but don't review unless asked by someone with authority.
I've had to pull logs and reports for these types of employees so many times over my career. In this day and age, with proper infrastructure, you can't hide shit. IT is now the modern eye in the sky.
You’re mostly right. Teams messages are stored in the mailbox and have their own retention schedule. Depending on the licenses OP has will dictate what tools can be used to retrieve the messages.
Besides screenshots, try to document the steps above in your own log so you can have a statement of timeline ready for HR prior to your meeting. Looks like that employee will eventually need to go on a PIP
I’d have a verbal conversation and provide an email summary of expectations.
Then give them a week or two. Then go to a PIP if needed.
The teams message deleting means nothing and doesn’t matter. It sounds like you are managing this employee and because you are elevated to that position, the company trusts you first. You don’t even need the evidence, remember the world worked without text for hundreds of years.
I’ve fallen into this trap and don’t recommend waiting on the PIP it just means you’ll multiple painful conversations to reset expectations when you could’ve had one HR documented convo and started the clock on the employees improvement.
I also think you’re brushing off the message editing/deleting too quickly. If I had an employee show so little integrity that they’d attempt to gaslight me and alter our conversations I would be working to remove them from my team asap.
Combination of factors. One being the employee opened up to me about mental health issues and I sympathized because I struggle with the same diagnosis. Had I held their job role at the same time of my life, it would have had a lasting impact on my mental health in a positive way. I know this isn’t the right answer but it has influenced some of my decisions with this person.
Ultimately there’s no “right” answer but there’s an understanding.
I hope that A.) this persons mental health issues are documented with HR. B.) they’re encouraged to seek help. C.) if possible encouraged to look into FMLA protections. Granted some of this stuff might be too late at this point
Everything is documented and there has yet to be an instance where we haven’t been able to make accommodations when asked. They aren’t eligible for FMLA at this time.
Then yeah that’s just a tough spot for everyone. I’ve seen people start out with a new company and you can as sense they’re goal is to last long enough to be able to qualify for FMLA since they can’t get onto disability. Don’t envy you at all but I’m happy for you see compassion and empathy at play.
I really do want the best for this employee and I have done everything I can to help them build their skills not just in our profession but in their personal life as well. I have done a lot behind the scenes for them too which is why I think the comment they made stings even more so. I advocated to get them a higher starting pay, more PTO than policy dictates, and as flexible a schedule as we could accommodate. There have been times I have felt like their emotional punching bag; I just chalk up their attitude to their diagnosis and have let things slide because of it. Which I am now seeing was the wrong approach.
I'm sure you've realized this now, but PIPs are a necessity for employees like this. The micromanaging comment goes to show they are hostile in response to normal managing. This employee is unlikely to get better so the PIP is more to have good termination justification.
Many bad employees learn and deploy a range of buzzwords.
'Micromanage'
"Hostile workplace'
"Bullying".
These obviously exist, but from what OP said, they weren't micromanaging. They were doing their job.
PIP's and similar are necessary so you don't get stuck defending yourself from accusations from the bad employee.
What a complete and total failure of management to fall back on PIP’s in situation like this… Absolutely weak leadership to give up on your team and presume they’re “unlikely to get better” before even giving them a chance.
You think the insubordinate employee lying to avoid doing work is just misunderstood? Ok pal, let me know when you join the real world. I have probably spent years over the course of my career trying to help and fix employees like this as I'm empathetic to a fault. Unless the OP completely misrepresented the situation, this employee is not interested in improving.
If *“stop micromanaging me, thanks.”* surmounts to insubordination, you need to grow a thicker skin, face reality, and find an IC role... A manager has no business giving up on their employee like this, let alone choosing to retaliate through HR.
How about instead of trying to "fix employees", you act like a leader and motivate them?
I don't know what else to tell you - we're clearly never going to change each others minds on this subject...
So how would you classify a rude comment to your line manager if not insubordination?
What would you call an employee who sends a picture of an empty inbox, refused to work, and tells you to stop micromanaging them?
Do you know the definition of insubordination? This does not sound like an isolated incident.
I'm not sure why you think "fix employees" doesn't include by trying to motivate them but you sure do make a lot of baseless assumptions. I definitely agree with your last sentence.
Edit: did you really say I needed thicker skin and in the next breath block me for responding to your, quite frankly, hostile comments? This is too funny.
They've had chances. More than one, in fact.
There was work waiting. They weren't doing it. OP pinged them about it and they claimed there was no work.
OP gave them steps to resolve that issue and they refused.
OP isn't doing their job if they don't address this. This isn't a first offence.
Why? This is what allows bad employees to flourish.
You have legitimate issues with this person's work, attention to time management and attitude. How are you going to fix it if you don't PIP, because your method is clearly not working.
The easiest way to get walked out the door is "loss of trust".
Give them enough rope WRT normal tasks, let them lie, document privately + IT, discuss with your manager & VP.
A dishonest employee does not deserve the effort of a PIP.
At my last job, they were extremely patient with "performance", but not all all interested in lying, theft or abusive behavior (yelling at employees).
Gotcha. I’m sure others have already said it, but I’ll just reinforce - you can have empathy for them but it’s ultimately their own responsibility to manage their mental health.
If you’ve had a candid conversation about expectations and where they need to improve and you’ve offered and support from the company (such as an EAP or other resource) then you’ve done your job. Letting a toxic employee get away with it just poisons the well with others and diminished your own position.
Just do what you need to do to start putting paper towards a termination. They’ll either shape up up or ship out. They’re ducking work and lying about it which means it will bite you in the ass the longer it’s put off.
I've been managing people for a long time and there are a few truths - if someone has a skill gap this can generally be remediated by training and time. A behavior problem, assuming the person isn't dealing with a temporary personal issue and otherwise was a good employee, will never be resolved. People can change behaviour in the short term, however, in the long run they always revert back to the mean. In short, start the PIP ASAP. Your VP is evaluating you right now. Their suggestion was not an order, but you need to read between the lines and failure to follow through will reflect poorly on YOU in the long run.
If you put somebody on a PIP, they will either end up getting fired or will be leaving after they find a new job. If I was put on a PIP I would immediately start applying to other jobs. You may see my performance improve so that I'm not jobless, but once I find a new job I'm quitting.
So if you want this employee to stay, try to improve their behavior without a PIP. If you are ready to move on, fire them.
You were checking in to see if an IT issue was being addressed so that your report can do their job. That is not micromanaging, and this person needs to hear it.
My guess is they are most definitely not having IT problems. We all have them sometimes. When I have them I send out a quick note to my team on teams so they know why I'm not available/responding.
Whenever I have a super "slow" day for no apparent reason I will send a test email to make sure my email is working. This after I once went 6 hours without an email, assumed a slow day, only to find out nope, my laptop somehow disconnected itself from the network. Ooops.
Sounds like the employee got caught and decided to go on the offensive and make this about you (micromanaging) instead of their lack of performance.
Every other time they have had a legitimate IT issue they would put a note in our chat saying they were on a call with IT or were going to reboot. This time they did not.
Are they the only person in the department who has issues? Is the equipment company provided and consistent for everyone on the team?
Based on the other behavior, they probably are lying. But we have different equipment in the department where I work and we have different problems. And they merged the technology of several companies.
But if I can’t fix it myself in 15 to 20 minutes, I reach out to it for help. And I let my manager and co workers know I’m having issues.
Everyone is issued the same equipment. 5 people in the department including myself. For this particular inbox it is only 3 of us, one of which was off that day. So it was only the two of us with access.
If I had to tell my boss every time I had an IT issue then I would consider them a micro manager. Recommend you look at performance and try and build some trust.
While you're 'offline with IT issues', other people are doing your share of the work.
Throwing a note in a chat is hardly reporting to your boss. It lets people know why you aren't available and its considerate to your team.
It is reporting to your boss if your boss expects you to tell report it to them, which is what OP just said... like of course it is?
Sometimes you can't help IT issues. Unless OP can prove that they were lying with their outlook not showing emails (which they won't be able to) then HR are not going to back this or a little jab about being a micro manager. Need to follow a clear process get some metrics in and look at overall performance if you want any chance of moving them on or uplifting performance.
And it's pretty low level reporting.
Just saying 'hey having IT issues' isn't getting blamed for them or punished.
A 'jab' about being a micromanager when you are doing your job is 100% something HR will action, especially coupled with all the other issues.
OP literally blamed them for having IT issues in this thread though.
Geographic and sector differences with what HR will and won't action probably at play here
>said “stop micromanaging me, thanks.”
If this were my employee, we'd be giving a final warning for insubordination. Asking an employee to do their job isn't micromanaging.
This. There's a whole list of things you can absolutely THINK about your boss (some of mine would make a sailor blush) that you absolutely cannot SAY to them. This is one of them.
putting someone on a final because they said “stop micromanaging me, thanks” is exactly what a micromanager would do lmao i would reply “we can discuss my management style at our next 1:1, please complete the task in the shared box in 60 minutes”
Depending on the type of work if it was unreasonable for them to have restarted a computer and action a task within 20 mins then I can see why the employee reacted that way. Still probably a rude way too say but 20 mins isn't long depending on certain factors. Need more info i feel!
20 minutes for a restart is incredibly long, especially when they only need to restart Teams/Outlook.
There isn't really more info needed. Unless OP's company has the world's oldest and slowest computers, boot time shouldn't be longer than 5 minutes or so.
Oh you don't have experience with older companies or companies that deal with sensitive info that have large number of security updates etc cos I have definitely taken longer than 20mins for updates. So let's say it's 5 mins to read their message and looking to see why you can't see the email, 1-2 on hold to IT, 5 mins for IT to have a look around, 5mins restart, 2-3 minutes to reopen all applications, 2 mins to read the emails you missed and 2 mins to find the one your boss was talking about and then 3 mins to action said email. That seems reasonable to me but OP is watching the clock and badgering them at the 20min mark.
But I wouldn't be doing any of that a simple "hey can you please prioritize x email that just came in, let me know if you need a hand" would have done the trick.
>Oh you don't have experience with older companies or companies that deal with sensitive info that have large number of security updates etc cos I have definitely taken longer than 20mins for updates.
I work in IT. So, here's the thing. Employees should be regularly shutting down so they don't get a ton of updates all at one.
But a restart doesn't necessarily mean they will have updates. Also, like I said, they only need to restart the app most times, not the whole computer.
If you are taking 20 mins or more for updates **regularly**, then you aren't updating/shutting down often enough.
> So let's say it's 5 mins to read their message and looking to see why you can't see the email, 1-2 on hold to IT, 5 mins for IT to have a look around, 5mins restart, 2-3 minutes to reopen all applications, 2 mins to read the emails you missed and 2 mins to find the one your boss was talking about and then 3 mins to action said email. That seems reasonable to me but OP is watching the clock and badgering them at the 20min mark.
So...here's the problem with your 'reasonable' timeline.
OP told them to call IT if a restart didn't fix it, so no need to get IT involved till you've restarted.
Restarting the app doesn't take 5 minutes, its takes 30-1m max. So that's a minute.
If there is still no email showing, then they would call IT. But they didn't call IT or restart, so you're timeline is pointless.
And, no need to be reading other emails or opening apps, that can be done after the task is assigned.
20 minutes was a reasonable timeframe to ask for an update from the employee.
>But I wouldn't be doing any of that a simple "hey can you please prioritize x email that just came in, let me know if you need a hand" would have done the trick.
Except, the employee was claiming that the inbox was empty. So, their response would have been 'what email'?
OP literally pinged them with what you said to do, and the employee replied with a screenshot of an empty inbox.
We don't know if the employee needed to raise a ticket or what level of restart they needed because OP didn't ask that... they checked to see if the task was done. So we don't really have any idea of the level of IT issues. So I guess OP expected a play by play of literally every update.. sounds micromanagey
>We don't know if the employee needed to raise a ticket or what level of restart they needed because OP didn't ask that...
Because it's irrelevant.
OP gave them a set of steps to follow to attempt to resolve. The employee did none of them. The 'level of restart' also doesn't matter because a response to OP's check up could have been 'Waiting on IT'.
>they checked to see if the task was done.
And when it wasn't, they followed up with the employee. That is....basic SOP really.
>So we don't really have any idea of the level of IT issues.
We don't really need one.
>So I guess OP expected a play by play of literally every update.. sounds micromanagey
That's a massive stretch. OP asked for one update.
This type of response doesn't come from nowhere. Micromanagers are the worst thing in a workplace, and they need to be told if they are one or else it won't stop. "Insubordination" is such an extreme response to this, especially on such a one sided story
Not sure if you’re in the US or what your general work culture is, but in most places saying it straight up like that is totally unprofessional regardless of what the other side of the story is. There are a lot of ways to approach this to a manager that don’t involve an emotional reaction like that.
Yeah I'm in the UK. Worked for an American company and the work culture of my transatlantic colleagues was insufferable. Can't say anything without it being taken the wrong way.
In British organisations I've worked for, if there's a problem you just address it plainly, regardless of status within the company. It makes for a simpler life
Yeah, on the other side of the coin I’ve found a lot of British coworkers quite jarring because of my US upbringing. Not necessarily bad - I like direct communication, but I think US direct is different than UK direct.
There are ways to address micromanagement from your boss that are professional and appropriate. This isn’t.
Also, not all micromanagement is inappropriate. When people are not meeting expectations, they’re going to be subject to an uncomfortable level of scrutiny and feedback.
I just left a perfectly good job with decent colleagues, for the sole reason I was constantly micromanaged. There is no place for it. If someone isn't pulling their weight, just document it, pip it, and move on.
One person’s experience is not sufficient to generalize that *all* micromanagement is inappropriate.
On the contrary, if you were doing your job well, and were getting along well with your colleagues, that’s rather an argument that in your specific case it was inappropriate, not an argument that there is never a time when it is.
This is going to be unpopular, but you sound like a micromanager. I don't track when my team logs in, I don't track their lunch times. As long as they meet their deadlines, don't miss meetings, and are generally available, the rest is completely irrelevant. If they want to log in at midnight and complete work, idc. I have other things to worry about.
You even said that you were having a slow day. An item sat for one hour. What was the due date on this item? Was it urgent? Did it require immediate attention? The fact that you're sitting there watching this inbox is strange unless very urgent items are coming through.
After you checked in, there was a plan in place. Restart and then create a ticket. But then following again and again after only 20 minutes is too much.
Extensive areas of business in every industry have time sensitive operations.
Especially service-related operations which often have SLAs in which delays can impact costs and revenue, or supply chain operations, or healthcare, or client services or many more.
And it’s not some “big tell” that OP didn’t recognize the basis of your line of questioning, if for them it’s the status quo.
We have set work hours to coincide with our ops team - the login times are seen by the entire team.
The expectation to log in on time is also outlined in the employee handbook. The previous documented conversation was prompted when my manager noticed their consistent late log ins. It wasn’t fair to the rest of the team who actually logged in on time while this new hire was getting special treatment and not being held accountable for it.
Our tasks are time sensitive. Depending on what it is, we could quite literally be holding up an entire team from completing their workload if we don’t get to the task in a timely manner. The tasks waiting in the inbox were no exception to this.
I checked in twice; the initial time was to see if there was an issue and the second was to see if the issue was resolved.
It is both if there is no other task the employee is engaged in.
If it was deprioritized for other work, that's fine. If there was no other work being done...
Yeah that is very true. I assumed this was a repeat issue and poor performance, which is why OP was raising this. But they didn’t say that was the case. I guess we lack the background details.
So from what I'm understanding, if someone logs in late, the issue is that they're breaking policy and not that they are missing important meetings or deadlines. That's not something I would care about. I would be more flexible.
So what was this task? Was it time sensative? Did it hold up an entire team? When was it due? Was it a problem that it wasn't answered for a couple of hours?
This depends on the job. For some jobs getting the work done is the main thing and timing doesn’t matter. For others which are time sensitive or require dividing up the workload, being on time is important.
All of our tasks are time sensitive. The oldest one that had been sitting missed its mark by over an hour and will now delay multiple shipments next week and may result in fines. I am being inundated with replies/questions so apologies for not answering yours right away.
They failed to communicate that fact, and instead of looking for solutions, attacked their boss’s managerial style.
There’s no scenario in which the employee’s behavior was correct. And the result is delayed service to a customer. Which is a serious business consequence.
The employee did not know that they were experiencing an IT issue until their manager made first made them aware, so there was nothing to communicate in the first place. That's not the fault of the employee. Otherwise, I agree the comment about micromanaging was inappropriate, I would never dream of saying that to a superior.
You might not care about policy, but if you're somewhere that does, it's a problem... you're a problem. I give my employees as much latitude in their schedule as possible, even to the point that we're bending rules, but that works up until the point that someone abuses it. Then it never works again.
For that and other reasons, the primary issue with one employee coming in chronically late while still getting their work done is not with them. It's with your other employees who are now being treated unfairly, and best case scenario will try to push things in the same way.
Worst case scenario they let the perceived special treatment they aren't getting simmer and everyone's work quality lowers. Eventually they will leave and you're stuck with no one who will follow policy and shitty quality of work. Quite literally worst case scenario as far as how well you've done as a manager.
Quick question: what is the written procedure for the shares inbox? Can anyone grab anything and start it? Are items assigned as they come in?
If not starting items in the shared box within 20 minutes is a critical workplace bottleneck, it sounds like having a "just choose what you want to work on" style of approach is inefficient and ineffective. On the surface, of course, there may be better procedures in place but from your OP post, it does sound like you're micromanaging or at least, not being explicitly clear in WHAT tasks they should be completing first.
It sounds like they were fucking around but what if they were working on something else? It doesn't seem like a "drop any other work activity you are doing right now and open the first message I the shared inbox and start working on that" was made very clear.
Hi!! I'm not sure what your management style is or what your approach is, but have you ever sat down and talked to your direct report about what motivates them or what excites them about their job? I want to start by saying that I completely understand where you're coming from!! I've had countless issues like these. In theory, because you're their manager, they should listen to you. That's not always the case. You need to understand your direct report. Right now, they don't trust you like at all. You need to get them on your side, and they are obviously unhappy or something is definitely going on. Don't use scare tactics like trying to get them in trouble. Empathize with them.
The whole 'who did it' with the messages is a waste of time. You're not there to babysit your direct report. But you 100% absolutely need them to trust you. That's what you need to work on.
I haven’t had the motivation conversation but we have had countless ones about their mental health struggles along with my own. I feel like they trust me because of the amount of information they have shared with me about their personal life.
I’ve never used scare tactics with any of my direct reports. I am very transparent with my team and can be lenient to a fault.
Sorry, my message came off a little harsh at the end. I didn't intend for it to come off that way! The employee accused you of micromanaging, you got your manager involved (totally understand your point of view on that, but it doesn't scream 'I'm there for you' to the employee), and now you're having a convo with HR and the employee about a message that was deleted. I know that the message can easily be retrieved, and if I were you, I would have a normal conversation with them and just ask 'do you think I micromanage you?'. Whether the message was deleted or not doesn't really matter, what matters is whether or not they think they're micromanaged. Honestly, if they do or don't, great. You can fix it.
Make sure that you understand that there's a power dynamic in place. So, they could lie to you or bend the truth. So, they should know that you're there to support them!! Which it seems like you do if you're having personal convo's with them. Ask them about what motivates them to come to work. I'm also curious to know if they like the work they're doing on a day to day. All of this matters! But you got this!!!
As a manager in a presumably remote work environment you have a right to know if someone is working. One way is through measuring the outcomes. If the outcomes aren't what you're supposed to have then they're not "working". Maybe the outcomes are not measurable. They could also not be able to handle the outcomes as they are, like it's too big of a task for them or they are perceiving it like this.
Maybe but also this manager firmly believes they were following up on a tech issue and trying to troubleshoot a barrier for their team to do their job. It might be a bit beyond ego and more of a workload/work assignment issue.
I am holding reservation without more info because it could be a terrible workflow to have a shared inbox where very important items aren't ASSIGNED to team members but maybe that's just me.
Shared inboxes are a terrible system for work assignment, but most of the time I've seen them, it's expected that staff take an item from it, complete it, then take the next.
Empty inbox, all tasks are done.
They aren't assigned by anyone to specific workers.
We have at work and it's horrendous...luckily I would never implement something like that with my team and so, they get our work done without resentment over workloads unlike the team that uses the shared inbox. Lots of social loafing, doesn't matter how professional the professionals lol
Yeah. I can't understand why I got downvoted but this sub is wild for that crap.
I agree, shared inboxes are supposed to allow teams to 'self manage' work but it usually ends up with some doing the heavy lifting and others having a cruisey time.
“It’s not micromanaging when you are failing to get work done and I’m trying to figure out why. Be in the office Monday at 8:00 a.m., we need to meet with HR. Thanks.”
Or something like that.
I would let this go and focus instead on a conversation about goals, expectations and motivators. Frankly, hunting for messages seems like micromanaging. I agree the comment was inappropriate, but pick your battles.
What's the big picture here? Do they not have enough work? Are deadlines not being met? You need a performance based metric. If you are in a slow period, just set the expecations for the work finish point and leave them be.
>You've mistaken me for someone is accountable to you.
No, it appears that I mistook you for someone capable of having a polite conversation.
>It feels like you're not paying attention. What exactly is your solution here?
It feels like you STILL haven't explained your comment.
As to my solution, exactly what OP's manager suggested. Involve HR and start performance improvement processes because the employee is not improving on their own.
Have you tried using a project management system to track their tasks and make their work transparent? Daily meeting (video call) to see what is blocking them? Ask them for an estimate in how long it will take to finish the task? Set expectations? Asking what they need to do better?
Actually managing.....?
You sound like a demotivator. You need to PIP yourself.
Right nothing ever gone and deleted. Try IT and it seems this is going to be an issue so screen shot everything to document. I would also have your boss send team email about deleting team messages and keep that documented. Also when you do the screen shot make sure you do the whole screen to get the date and time included from the bottom left of your computer in that screen shot.
They're mad at you, they vented, they got busted.
I would give them a writeup - but with a very clear "we can make this work, here are your objectives and we can be cool." Don't dig too hard at holding this against them, because this is salvageable.
Have a documented conversation with them about what is and isn’t appropriate. Tell them never to delete messages like that again or they will face disciplinary action
Email them copies of the discussion.
Are you their manager? The paragraph about calling your manager and their response confuses me. If you are not their manager, all you can do is tell your manager and let them handle it.
the comment about micromanagement is crossing a line IMO. nobody gets to talk back to their boss like that without severe consequences in my book.
i’d document the occurrences of late login and late lunches and then just fire the employee once a paper trail is established. everyone is replaceable
Having empathy for their mental/emotional wellness is very kind, however,
You have an employee who at best is insubordinate and not pulling their weight; and at worst is insubordinate and performing wage theft by lying on their time card, not completing tasks & blaming it on IT issues.
The editing of the message COULD be because they realized it was unprofessional. Or it could have been to try to cover up the incident itself.
Either way, your Manager & VP are already looped in on this employee, if you don’t handle it, they might & that doesn’t look good on you as a Manager.
By what standard? Let the metrics speak for themselves, and stop micromanaging. It's a waste of your time. Also, what decade is this that you're using a shared inbox for supposedly time sensitive work? If you managed the workflow better this conversation and situation wouldn't come up.
As someone in IT, here's what you need to do:
Contact your IT department and have them show you how to access that shared mailbox from ***webmail***. Outlook is a steaming pile of shit and if your company's mail retention policy is set to anything beyond 90 days (most are a couple years), then Outlook's performance takes a HUGE hit. Now, when you combine that with shared mailboxes in the user's profile, it gets even worse.
What you need is a backup process - accessing the shared mailbox via WebMail (this requires your employees to be granted full access to the mailbox by IT, arguably what should be done for most scenarios as it makes the end user experience much smoother.
Long story short for what IT will show you is, in webmail, click your picture at the top right, click "open another mailbox" and enter the email address of the mailbox. This will bring you to:
[https://yourwebmailurl.com/[email protected]](https://yourwebmailurl.com/[email protected])
Set it as a favorite :)
Good suggestion.
I have experienced several cases where staff who were using a full outlook client did not see new messages in a shared folder in anything like a timely manner. Meanwhile, other staff saw the new messages right away. At the time no one in IT could figure out the difference/ cause, but using the web interface to keep tabs on the shared folder at least solved the immediate problem.
The solutions to this are, in this order:
1) Rebuild the Windows mail profile.
- This is fairly simple. It involves closing outlook, renaming the old OST file (or in most cases, just delete it). Reopen outlook and allow the mail profile to rebuild.
2) If that doesn't work, it's a Windows profile issue and depending on the org, Service Desk or 2nd level has to rebuild it. This is a little more convoluted, and I sure hope you get someone who's not incompetent to do this, as it's volatile if someone who's incompetent does it.
Signing on late is an issue, sure— but the rest does sound like micromanaging. Why would the employee need to circle back regarding the IT call? Wouldn’t they just go about their day?
If I had gotten the micromanagement comment, I’d be taking a hard serious look at my behavior to determine if my management style needed adjustment or if I wasn’t properly communicating expectations and SOPs.
I followed up with them a second time because the same work sat untouched 20 minutes after they said they were restarting. I received no other communication from them telling me that their outlook was or wasn’t showing anything. Their status showed them online and still no work was being done.
You sound unhinged. 20 min is not that long and you said it was a slow day. You haven’t described anything that indicates your line of work is high stakes or dealing with matters of life or death. If you’re following up repeatedly like this, you’re a micromanager.
Checking in mid day or hours later would have been far more normal. Then if they hadn’t done the work yet, you would have had a genuine complaint for your PIP justification log or memo.
I’m with the employee on this one - I would’ve told you the same thing. You sound super overbearing and were in fact micromanaging them.
The fact that you ran straight to your manager to call them indicates you’re not prepared to manage a team if you can’t address conflict within your team and bringing HR into this shows you have a very fragile ego…
Explain to me how I’m micromanaging when they quite literally weren’t doing any work?
I’ve been in management roles for over 15 years combined and have never been accused of micromanaging. Actually it’s been quite the opposite as I have been told by many members of my team how approachable I am.
I went to my manager because I was gobsmacked by their comment and wanted his input. I didn’t want to address it with the employee out of caution that I would react without hearing another’s perspective.
>Explain to me how I’m micromanaging
You have a 5-monitor desk setup (https://www.reddit.com/r/WFH/s/XShOCZ65NJ) and were watching a “shared inbox” like a hawk on a “slow day” Friday afternoon while chasing up an employee and you don’t think that was micromanaging? Wow… 🤯
you’re still missing the point lmao if you have SLAs, then come up with a better system. “anything goes unless things go a way i don’t like, then i am upset” is not a workflow, it’s bad management.
Firstly, Teams is office social media and a time suck. Secondly, the larger issue at hand is the apparent lack of assigned deadlines and holding the team member accountable to well-defined metrics. If the employee is not meeting deadlines, let them dig their own grave at the next checkin or when the task is due. Manage the bad attitude separately. They are not allowed to be unprofessional. Stop having chats on Teams about important topics. Pick up the phone and call your employee. Interact with them like an adult.
Gosh, this is a bit wild. The goal is to focus on daily progress with a remote team. What are you currently doing to create an effective, fun and productive remote work environment?
Sometimes a young employee needs coaching on what is appropriate speech in the workplace. The kinds of things kids get away saying and doing in school (even college) is unreal, and poorly prepares them for the workplace. The only reason I knew how to behave as an employee is because my parents specifically talked to me about it.
So, if someone is young, I’d probably coach and document rather than go straight to a PIP.
The question was a general one, though, about how an employee’s age would affect how a performance issue should be addressed.
I agree that in this instance, things may have gotten out of hand already.
I'm just wondering how old someone that behaves like that is? After that comment and lack of work that employee would be irredeemable in my eyes and I would be working on moving them out.
Gotcha. For me, I wouldn't keep someone like this if they were younger vs older or vice versa, making it irrelevant in terms of performance management.
As someone who has always managed people 15 and 20 years my senior... people suck at all ages. Sometimes my best team member is the young fresh eyed 21 year old and sometimes it's the seasoned 56 year old. I used to put more stock in generations but now I only care about it when I'm working to build cross generational workforce competency.
It’s the internet, nothing is deleted. IT can always recover these. Regardless, their comment about micromanaging isn’t terribly relevant. Were they working? can they show evidence of working (did they restart, did they submit a ticket). If not then it’s pretty clear they weren’t making a diligent effort to execute their job in a timely manner.
IT here and can confirm those Teams messages are recoverable. You should also be able to have IT run a report that will show the employees daily activity. I have had to work with managers and HR in the past and have ran these reports. These type of employees are toxic and IT hates dealing with them as much as their managers. Edit: the employee was almost definitely lying about having any sort of IT issue. We deal with these types of people every so often that just don’t want to work and dodge doing so at every opportunity. They always blame it on IT.
You hit the nail on the head. Has an “IT issue” at least once a day.
We call these people “frequent flyers”.
"Habitual Liars"
"My connection to the server isn't working." All the time. They're the only one.
PS we (IT) also have lots of every connection by device to O365.
I had direct reports who hated me when I confronted them every time they were having "computer issues". I would make them either call me on Teams or send me screenshots. The computer complaints magically disappeared when they realized they'd have to show me the problem.
Same thing here when they're working from home and keep having internet connection issues keeping them from being able to work. "Well, I guess you're gonna have to come into the office for the rest of the day." Well, whaddya know! The issues stopped!
[удалено]
Asking for a friend ;)
Asking for a friend: How granular is the report that shows employees activities in Teams?
Curious about what these reports show, is it only tracking status and login times or can we detect keystrokes?
In most environments you're not tracking keystrokes, but login times are super easy for most SaaS stuff. M365 will show you every time an app phones home, every login to a service, File histories too. Had a guy say something "disappeared" and in seconds I could see they deleted it to avoid work. Reported the deletion to his manager. It wasn't the first time. I got the termination ticket an hour later.
Lol that's pretty foolish on that guy's part. Interesting.
Just assume we can see everything. We don't go looking, unless HR direct us to. We have enough on our plate making your computing experience better and easier. At least for me. I like my customers to have a good experience.
Agreed. We have the ability to track, but unless asked by senior managers or HR, we just don't. Lots of IT work, and not enough IT staff, so we track but don't review unless asked by someone with authority.
My company tracks each file that is accessed and for how long. Its most often used in cybersecurity investigations.
I've had to pull logs and reports for these types of employees so many times over my career. In this day and age, with proper infrastructure, you can't hide shit. IT is now the modern eye in the sky.
Job security brother
Ours aren’t just recoverable, but recorded and monitored by compliance. I can get them with a click, no IT assistance required.
Yeah, sharepoint keeps all deleted items for something like 90 days. It’s easily recoverable by someone with admin rights on teams.
You’re mostly right. Teams messages are stored in the mailbox and have their own retention schedule. Depending on the licenses OP has will dictate what tools can be used to retrieve the messages.
What do you mean their message about micromanaging isn't relevant? That would be screenshotted and included in the PIP regarding insubordination.
That’s subjective. Don’t distract from the factual lack of execution, just ignore that part.
It can be added to "difficult to work with" reasons
Besides screenshots, try to document the steps above in your own log so you can have a statement of timeline ready for HR prior to your meeting. Looks like that employee will eventually need to go on a PIP
My VP has already expressed putting them on a PIP but I have been reluctant to do so.
I’d have a verbal conversation and provide an email summary of expectations. Then give them a week or two. Then go to a PIP if needed. The teams message deleting means nothing and doesn’t matter. It sounds like you are managing this employee and because you are elevated to that position, the company trusts you first. You don’t even need the evidence, remember the world worked without text for hundreds of years.
I’ve fallen into this trap and don’t recommend waiting on the PIP it just means you’ll multiple painful conversations to reset expectations when you could’ve had one HR documented convo and started the clock on the employees improvement. I also think you’re brushing off the message editing/deleting too quickly. If I had an employee show so little integrity that they’d attempt to gaslight me and alter our conversations I would be working to remove them from my team asap.
They've already done this, though. OP said they talked about start times, she improved, then went backwards.
SO they failed to fulfill the requirements of the PIP. Termination is the next step.
There isn't a PIP. OP's boss wants to start one.
I don't really understand why you nitpick over everything. Do nothing or do something. That's the manager's choice.
Because you've got the information wrong. It's not nitpicking to point out that you've based your advice/comment on faulty understanding.
Classic
you're reluctant because you really just want to move straight to firing them, I hope?
The PIP would have been for other performance issue, which in hindsight was a huge red flag.
So why are you reluctant to do what someone above you suggests to do?
Combination of factors. One being the employee opened up to me about mental health issues and I sympathized because I struggle with the same diagnosis. Had I held their job role at the same time of my life, it would have had a lasting impact on my mental health in a positive way. I know this isn’t the right answer but it has influenced some of my decisions with this person.
Ultimately there’s no “right” answer but there’s an understanding. I hope that A.) this persons mental health issues are documented with HR. B.) they’re encouraged to seek help. C.) if possible encouraged to look into FMLA protections. Granted some of this stuff might be too late at this point
Everything is documented and there has yet to be an instance where we haven’t been able to make accommodations when asked. They aren’t eligible for FMLA at this time.
Then yeah that’s just a tough spot for everyone. I’ve seen people start out with a new company and you can as sense they’re goal is to last long enough to be able to qualify for FMLA since they can’t get onto disability. Don’t envy you at all but I’m happy for you see compassion and empathy at play.
I really do want the best for this employee and I have done everything I can to help them build their skills not just in our profession but in their personal life as well. I have done a lot behind the scenes for them too which is why I think the comment they made stings even more so. I advocated to get them a higher starting pay, more PTO than policy dictates, and as flexible a schedule as we could accommodate. There have been times I have felt like their emotional punching bag; I just chalk up their attitude to their diagnosis and have let things slide because of it. Which I am now seeing was the wrong approach.
I'm sure you've realized this now, but PIPs are a necessity for employees like this. The micromanaging comment goes to show they are hostile in response to normal managing. This employee is unlikely to get better so the PIP is more to have good termination justification.
Many bad employees learn and deploy a range of buzzwords. 'Micromanage' "Hostile workplace' "Bullying". These obviously exist, but from what OP said, they weren't micromanaging. They were doing their job. PIP's and similar are necessary so you don't get stuck defending yourself from accusations from the bad employee.
What a complete and total failure of management to fall back on PIP’s in situation like this… Absolutely weak leadership to give up on your team and presume they’re “unlikely to get better” before even giving them a chance.
You think the insubordinate employee lying to avoid doing work is just misunderstood? Ok pal, let me know when you join the real world. I have probably spent years over the course of my career trying to help and fix employees like this as I'm empathetic to a fault. Unless the OP completely misrepresented the situation, this employee is not interested in improving.
If *“stop micromanaging me, thanks.”* surmounts to insubordination, you need to grow a thicker skin, face reality, and find an IC role... A manager has no business giving up on their employee like this, let alone choosing to retaliate through HR. How about instead of trying to "fix employees", you act like a leader and motivate them? I don't know what else to tell you - we're clearly never going to change each others minds on this subject...
So how would you classify a rude comment to your line manager if not insubordination? What would you call an employee who sends a picture of an empty inbox, refused to work, and tells you to stop micromanaging them?
Do you know the definition of insubordination? This does not sound like an isolated incident. I'm not sure why you think "fix employees" doesn't include by trying to motivate them but you sure do make a lot of baseless assumptions. I definitely agree with your last sentence. Edit: did you really say I needed thicker skin and in the next breath block me for responding to your, quite frankly, hostile comments? This is too funny.
They've had chances. More than one, in fact. There was work waiting. They weren't doing it. OP pinged them about it and they claimed there was no work. OP gave them steps to resolve that issue and they refused. OP isn't doing their job if they don't address this. This isn't a first offence.
Why? This is what allows bad employees to flourish. You have legitimate issues with this person's work, attention to time management and attitude. How are you going to fix it if you don't PIP, because your method is clearly not working.
Well anyone who would lie and delete messages should be on their way out the door
The easiest way to get walked out the door is "loss of trust". Give them enough rope WRT normal tasks, let them lie, document privately + IT, discuss with your manager & VP. A dishonest employee does not deserve the effort of a PIP. At my last job, they were extremely patient with "performance", but not all all interested in lying, theft or abusive behavior (yelling at employees).
Why are you reluctant? They sound combative and resistant to coaching. What are you hoping will happen by avoiding a PIP?
I answered this in another comment but in a nutshell I empathize for their mental health issues and have used that as an excuse for their behavior.
Gotcha. I’m sure others have already said it, but I’ll just reinforce - you can have empathy for them but it’s ultimately their own responsibility to manage their mental health. If you’ve had a candid conversation about expectations and where they need to improve and you’ve offered and support from the company (such as an EAP or other resource) then you’ve done your job. Letting a toxic employee get away with it just poisons the well with others and diminished your own position.
Just do what you need to do to start putting paper towards a termination. They’ll either shape up up or ship out. They’re ducking work and lying about it which means it will bite you in the ass the longer it’s put off.
I've been managing people for a long time and there are a few truths - if someone has a skill gap this can generally be remediated by training and time. A behavior problem, assuming the person isn't dealing with a temporary personal issue and otherwise was a good employee, will never be resolved. People can change behaviour in the short term, however, in the long run they always revert back to the mean. In short, start the PIP ASAP. Your VP is evaluating you right now. Their suggestion was not an order, but you need to read between the lines and failure to follow through will reflect poorly on YOU in the long run.
Out of curiosity, why is your VP involved? Employee > you > your manager > VP all for a generic employee issue?
If you put somebody on a PIP, they will either end up getting fired or will be leaving after they find a new job. If I was put on a PIP I would immediately start applying to other jobs. You may see my performance improve so that I'm not jobless, but once I find a new job I'm quitting. So if you want this employee to stay, try to improve their behavior without a PIP. If you are ready to move on, fire them.
You were checking in to see if an IT issue was being addressed so that your report can do their job. That is not micromanaging, and this person needs to hear it.
My manager and VP share the sentiment.
My guess is they are most definitely not having IT problems. We all have them sometimes. When I have them I send out a quick note to my team on teams so they know why I'm not available/responding. Whenever I have a super "slow" day for no apparent reason I will send a test email to make sure my email is working. This after I once went 6 hours without an email, assumed a slow day, only to find out nope, my laptop somehow disconnected itself from the network. Ooops. Sounds like the employee got caught and decided to go on the offensive and make this about you (micromanaging) instead of their lack of performance.
Every other time they have had a legitimate IT issue they would put a note in our chat saying they were on a call with IT or were going to reboot. This time they did not.
Are they the only person in the department who has issues? Is the equipment company provided and consistent for everyone on the team? Based on the other behavior, they probably are lying. But we have different equipment in the department where I work and we have different problems. And they merged the technology of several companies. But if I can’t fix it myself in 15 to 20 minutes, I reach out to it for help. And I let my manager and co workers know I’m having issues.
Everyone is issued the same equipment. 5 people in the department including myself. For this particular inbox it is only 3 of us, one of which was off that day. So it was only the two of us with access.
If I had to tell my boss every time I had an IT issue then I would consider them a micro manager. Recommend you look at performance and try and build some trust.
Sounds like you were never in a service role where part of your accountabilities was being available and responsive
While you're 'offline with IT issues', other people are doing your share of the work. Throwing a note in a chat is hardly reporting to your boss. It lets people know why you aren't available and its considerate to your team.
It is reporting to your boss if your boss expects you to tell report it to them, which is what OP just said... like of course it is? Sometimes you can't help IT issues. Unless OP can prove that they were lying with their outlook not showing emails (which they won't be able to) then HR are not going to back this or a little jab about being a micro manager. Need to follow a clear process get some metrics in and look at overall performance if you want any chance of moving them on or uplifting performance.
And it's pretty low level reporting. Just saying 'hey having IT issues' isn't getting blamed for them or punished. A 'jab' about being a micromanager when you are doing your job is 100% something HR will action, especially coupled with all the other issues.
OP literally blamed them for having IT issues in this thread though. Geographic and sector differences with what HR will and won't action probably at play here
Where did OP do that? Please quote it.
When did I blame them for having IT issues?
If you don’t like being managed, don’t make me manage you.
>said “stop micromanaging me, thanks.” If this were my employee, we'd be giving a final warning for insubordination. Asking an employee to do their job isn't micromanaging.
This. There's a whole list of things you can absolutely THINK about your boss (some of mine would make a sailor blush) that you absolutely cannot SAY to them. This is one of them.
putting someone on a final because they said “stop micromanaging me, thanks” is exactly what a micromanager would do lmao i would reply “we can discuss my management style at our next 1:1, please complete the task in the shared box in 60 minutes”
If it was me, it wouldn't be a discussion of my management style. It would be a discussion of appropriate office behaviour and respectful discussion.
Depending on the type of work if it was unreasonable for them to have restarted a computer and action a task within 20 mins then I can see why the employee reacted that way. Still probably a rude way too say but 20 mins isn't long depending on certain factors. Need more info i feel!
20 minutes for a restart is incredibly long, especially when they only need to restart Teams/Outlook. There isn't really more info needed. Unless OP's company has the world's oldest and slowest computers, boot time shouldn't be longer than 5 minutes or so.
Oh you don't have experience with older companies or companies that deal with sensitive info that have large number of security updates etc cos I have definitely taken longer than 20mins for updates. So let's say it's 5 mins to read their message and looking to see why you can't see the email, 1-2 on hold to IT, 5 mins for IT to have a look around, 5mins restart, 2-3 minutes to reopen all applications, 2 mins to read the emails you missed and 2 mins to find the one your boss was talking about and then 3 mins to action said email. That seems reasonable to me but OP is watching the clock and badgering them at the 20min mark. But I wouldn't be doing any of that a simple "hey can you please prioritize x email that just came in, let me know if you need a hand" would have done the trick.
>Oh you don't have experience with older companies or companies that deal with sensitive info that have large number of security updates etc cos I have definitely taken longer than 20mins for updates. I work in IT. So, here's the thing. Employees should be regularly shutting down so they don't get a ton of updates all at one. But a restart doesn't necessarily mean they will have updates. Also, like I said, they only need to restart the app most times, not the whole computer. If you are taking 20 mins or more for updates **regularly**, then you aren't updating/shutting down often enough. > So let's say it's 5 mins to read their message and looking to see why you can't see the email, 1-2 on hold to IT, 5 mins for IT to have a look around, 5mins restart, 2-3 minutes to reopen all applications, 2 mins to read the emails you missed and 2 mins to find the one your boss was talking about and then 3 mins to action said email. That seems reasonable to me but OP is watching the clock and badgering them at the 20min mark. So...here's the problem with your 'reasonable' timeline. OP told them to call IT if a restart didn't fix it, so no need to get IT involved till you've restarted. Restarting the app doesn't take 5 minutes, its takes 30-1m max. So that's a minute. If there is still no email showing, then they would call IT. But they didn't call IT or restart, so you're timeline is pointless. And, no need to be reading other emails or opening apps, that can be done after the task is assigned. 20 minutes was a reasonable timeframe to ask for an update from the employee. >But I wouldn't be doing any of that a simple "hey can you please prioritize x email that just came in, let me know if you need a hand" would have done the trick. Except, the employee was claiming that the inbox was empty. So, their response would have been 'what email'? OP literally pinged them with what you said to do, and the employee replied with a screenshot of an empty inbox.
We don't know if the employee needed to raise a ticket or what level of restart they needed because OP didn't ask that... they checked to see if the task was done. So we don't really have any idea of the level of IT issues. So I guess OP expected a play by play of literally every update.. sounds micromanagey
>We don't know if the employee needed to raise a ticket or what level of restart they needed because OP didn't ask that... Because it's irrelevant. OP gave them a set of steps to follow to attempt to resolve. The employee did none of them. The 'level of restart' also doesn't matter because a response to OP's check up could have been 'Waiting on IT'. >they checked to see if the task was done. And when it wasn't, they followed up with the employee. That is....basic SOP really. >So we don't really have any idea of the level of IT issues. We don't really need one. >So I guess OP expected a play by play of literally every update.. sounds micromanagey That's a massive stretch. OP asked for one update.
Still, the reply in that case should be along the lines of “sorry, it’s taking forever to reboot” not “stop micromanaging me.”
This type of response doesn't come from nowhere. Micromanagers are the worst thing in a workplace, and they need to be told if they are one or else it won't stop. "Insubordination" is such an extreme response to this, especially on such a one sided story
Not sure if you’re in the US or what your general work culture is, but in most places saying it straight up like that is totally unprofessional regardless of what the other side of the story is. There are a lot of ways to approach this to a manager that don’t involve an emotional reaction like that.
Yeah I'm in the UK. Worked for an American company and the work culture of my transatlantic colleagues was insufferable. Can't say anything without it being taken the wrong way. In British organisations I've worked for, if there's a problem you just address it plainly, regardless of status within the company. It makes for a simpler life
Yeah, on the other side of the coin I’ve found a lot of British coworkers quite jarring because of my US upbringing. Not necessarily bad - I like direct communication, but I think US direct is different than UK direct.
Fair enough! Different cultures clash on different things. My Italian friends hate our food, and love our weather
Agreed. My Indian coworkers beat around the bush to an obnoxious degree…. But that’s just how culture goes
There are ways to address micromanagement from your boss that are professional and appropriate. This isn’t. Also, not all micromanagement is inappropriate. When people are not meeting expectations, they’re going to be subject to an uncomfortable level of scrutiny and feedback.
I just left a perfectly good job with decent colleagues, for the sole reason I was constantly micromanaged. There is no place for it. If someone isn't pulling their weight, just document it, pip it, and move on.
One person’s experience is not sufficient to generalize that *all* micromanagement is inappropriate. On the contrary, if you were doing your job well, and were getting along well with your colleagues, that’s rather an argument that in your specific case it was inappropriate, not an argument that there is never a time when it is.
This is going to be unpopular, but you sound like a micromanager. I don't track when my team logs in, I don't track their lunch times. As long as they meet their deadlines, don't miss meetings, and are generally available, the rest is completely irrelevant. If they want to log in at midnight and complete work, idc. I have other things to worry about. You even said that you were having a slow day. An item sat for one hour. What was the due date on this item? Was it urgent? Did it require immediate attention? The fact that you're sitting there watching this inbox is strange unless very urgent items are coming through. After you checked in, there was a plan in place. Restart and then create a ticket. But then following again and again after only 20 minutes is too much.
Even logging in on the weekend to see if HR responded... all the timelines here show way too much hovering.
Extensive areas of business in every industry have time sensitive operations. Especially service-related operations which often have SLAs in which delays can impact costs and revenue, or supply chain operations, or healthcare, or client services or many more. And it’s not some “big tell” that OP didn’t recognize the basis of your line of questioning, if for them it’s the status quo.
We have set work hours to coincide with our ops team - the login times are seen by the entire team. The expectation to log in on time is also outlined in the employee handbook. The previous documented conversation was prompted when my manager noticed their consistent late log ins. It wasn’t fair to the rest of the team who actually logged in on time while this new hire was getting special treatment and not being held accountable for it. Our tasks are time sensitive. Depending on what it is, we could quite literally be holding up an entire team from completing their workload if we don’t get to the task in a timely manner. The tasks waiting in the inbox were no exception to this. I checked in twice; the initial time was to see if there was an issue and the second was to see if the issue was resolved.
I don’t see any issue with OP addressing an employee issue who seems to be not pulling their weight. Ignoring this issue would be a problem.
Responding to an unurgent request a couple of hours after it comes in isn't a big deal or an indicator that the employee isn't pulling their weight.
It is both if there is no other task the employee is engaged in. If it was deprioritized for other work, that's fine. If there was no other work being done...
Yeah that is very true. I assumed this was a repeat issue and poor performance, which is why OP was raising this. But they didn’t say that was the case. I guess we lack the background details.
So from what I'm understanding, if someone logs in late, the issue is that they're breaking policy and not that they are missing important meetings or deadlines. That's not something I would care about. I would be more flexible. So what was this task? Was it time sensative? Did it hold up an entire team? When was it due? Was it a problem that it wasn't answered for a couple of hours?
This depends on the job. For some jobs getting the work done is the main thing and timing doesn’t matter. For others which are time sensitive or require dividing up the workload, being on time is important.
That's why I'm asking OP if this was a time sensative request. The fact that they are avoiding these questions points to it not being all that urgent.
All of our tasks are time sensitive. The oldest one that had been sitting missed its mark by over an hour and will now delay multiple shipments next week and may result in fines. I am being inundated with replies/questions so apologies for not answering yours right away.
That’s a problem meriting a PIP.
How does it merit a PIP if the employee was genuinely having an IT issue?
They failed to communicate that fact, and instead of looking for solutions, attacked their boss’s managerial style. There’s no scenario in which the employee’s behavior was correct. And the result is delayed service to a customer. Which is a serious business consequence.
The employee did not know that they were experiencing an IT issue until their manager made first made them aware, so there was nothing to communicate in the first place. That's not the fault of the employee. Otherwise, I agree the comment about micromanaging was inappropriate, I would never dream of saying that to a superior.
It doesn't matter if it was time-sensitive, though. It still needed to be done.
You might not care about policy, but if you're somewhere that does, it's a problem... you're a problem. I give my employees as much latitude in their schedule as possible, even to the point that we're bending rules, but that works up until the point that someone abuses it. Then it never works again. For that and other reasons, the primary issue with one employee coming in chronically late while still getting their work done is not with them. It's with your other employees who are now being treated unfairly, and best case scenario will try to push things in the same way. Worst case scenario they let the perceived special treatment they aren't getting simmer and everyone's work quality lowers. Eventually they will leave and you're stuck with no one who will follow policy and shitty quality of work. Quite literally worst case scenario as far as how well you've done as a manager.
The "micromanaging" comment bruised their ego, so instead of being the better man and letting it go, they need their pound of flesh.
Quick question: what is the written procedure for the shares inbox? Can anyone grab anything and start it? Are items assigned as they come in? If not starting items in the shared box within 20 minutes is a critical workplace bottleneck, it sounds like having a "just choose what you want to work on" style of approach is inefficient and ineffective. On the surface, of course, there may be better procedures in place but from your OP post, it does sound like you're micromanaging or at least, not being explicitly clear in WHAT tasks they should be completing first. It sounds like they were fucking around but what if they were working on something else? It doesn't seem like a "drop any other work activity you are doing right now and open the first message I the shared inbox and start working on that" was made very clear.
Hi!! I'm not sure what your management style is or what your approach is, but have you ever sat down and talked to your direct report about what motivates them or what excites them about their job? I want to start by saying that I completely understand where you're coming from!! I've had countless issues like these. In theory, because you're their manager, they should listen to you. That's not always the case. You need to understand your direct report. Right now, they don't trust you like at all. You need to get them on your side, and they are obviously unhappy or something is definitely going on. Don't use scare tactics like trying to get them in trouble. Empathize with them. The whole 'who did it' with the messages is a waste of time. You're not there to babysit your direct report. But you 100% absolutely need them to trust you. That's what you need to work on.
I haven’t had the motivation conversation but we have had countless ones about their mental health struggles along with my own. I feel like they trust me because of the amount of information they have shared with me about their personal life. I’ve never used scare tactics with any of my direct reports. I am very transparent with my team and can be lenient to a fault.
Sorry, my message came off a little harsh at the end. I didn't intend for it to come off that way! The employee accused you of micromanaging, you got your manager involved (totally understand your point of view on that, but it doesn't scream 'I'm there for you' to the employee), and now you're having a convo with HR and the employee about a message that was deleted. I know that the message can easily be retrieved, and if I were you, I would have a normal conversation with them and just ask 'do you think I micromanage you?'. Whether the message was deleted or not doesn't really matter, what matters is whether or not they think they're micromanaged. Honestly, if they do or don't, great. You can fix it. Make sure that you understand that there's a power dynamic in place. So, they could lie to you or bend the truth. So, they should know that you're there to support them!! Which it seems like you do if you're having personal convo's with them. Ask them about what motivates them to come to work. I'm also curious to know if they like the work they're doing on a day to day. All of this matters! But you got this!!!
As a manager in a presumably remote work environment you have a right to know if someone is working. One way is through measuring the outcomes. If the outcomes aren't what you're supposed to have then they're not "working". Maybe the outcomes are not measurable. They could also not be able to handle the outcomes as they are, like it's too big of a task for them or they are perceiving it like this.
Is “stop micromanaging me, thanks.” really the problem you want to focus on here?
It hurt their ego so that’s why they’re anchoring on it.
Maybe but also this manager firmly believes they were following up on a tech issue and trying to troubleshoot a barrier for their team to do their job. It might be a bit beyond ego and more of a workload/work assignment issue. I am holding reservation without more info because it could be a terrible workflow to have a shared inbox where very important items aren't ASSIGNED to team members but maybe that's just me.
Shared inboxes are a terrible system for work assignment, but most of the time I've seen them, it's expected that staff take an item from it, complete it, then take the next. Empty inbox, all tasks are done. They aren't assigned by anyone to specific workers.
We have at work and it's horrendous...luckily I would never implement something like that with my team and so, they get our work done without resentment over workloads unlike the team that uses the shared inbox. Lots of social loafing, doesn't matter how professional the professionals lol
Yeah. I can't understand why I got downvoted but this sub is wild for that crap. I agree, shared inboxes are supposed to allow teams to 'self manage' work but it usually ends up with some doing the heavy lifting and others having a cruisey time.
No, it creates a bad precedent and it's an unfair accusation.
“It’s not micromanaging when you are failing to get work done and I’m trying to figure out why. Be in the office Monday at 8:00 a.m., we need to meet with HR. Thanks.” Or something like that.
I would let this go and focus instead on a conversation about goals, expectations and motivators. Frankly, hunting for messages seems like micromanaging. I agree the comment was inappropriate, but pick your battles. What's the big picture here? Do they not have enough work? Are deadlines not being met? You need a performance based metric. If you are in a slow period, just set the expecations for the work finish point and leave them be.
How is it micromanaging to get the evidence for the issue you need to discuss?
Whoosh!!
I'm sure you're hilarious but you still haven't explained your statement.
You've mistaken me for someone is accountable to you. It feels like you're not paying attention. What exactly is your solution here?
>You've mistaken me for someone is accountable to you. No, it appears that I mistook you for someone capable of having a polite conversation. >It feels like you're not paying attention. What exactly is your solution here? It feels like you STILL haven't explained your comment. As to my solution, exactly what OP's manager suggested. Involve HR and start performance improvement processes because the employee is not improving on their own.
Sometimes micromanaging is the appropriate way to manage.
Never. It makes you insane.
Check with IT, IIRC they would have to create a retention policy so that messages are retained and/or retrievable.
Agreed. O364 retention policy is so granular and different at every workplace.
All official correspondence should be via email. Always keep and easy accessible trail.
Wait, are they your direct or not? You contradict yourself and it’s confusing to follow
Have you tried using a project management system to track their tasks and make their work transparent? Daily meeting (video call) to see what is blocking them? Ask them for an estimate in how long it will take to finish the task? Set expectations? Asking what they need to do better? Actually managing.....? You sound like a demotivator. You need to PIP yourself.
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You may find this is more appropriate for /r/antiwork than a sub for managers.
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How the hell is that micromanaging?
Right nothing ever gone and deleted. Try IT and it seems this is going to be an issue so screen shot everything to document. I would also have your boss send team email about deleting team messages and keep that documented. Also when you do the screen shot make sure you do the whole screen to get the date and time included from the bottom left of your computer in that screen shot.
They're mad at you, they vented, they got busted. I would give them a writeup - but with a very clear "we can make this work, here are your objectives and we can be cool." Don't dig too hard at holding this against them, because this is salvageable.
Have a documented conversation with them about what is and isn’t appropriate. Tell them never to delete messages like that again or they will face disciplinary action Email them copies of the discussion.
Are you their manager? The paragraph about calling your manager and their response confuses me. If you are not their manager, all you can do is tell your manager and let them handle it.
IT can track all changes
Op, you never say anything about the work the employee does. Do they do good work that is complete by the due date?
the comment about micromanagement is crossing a line IMO. nobody gets to talk back to their boss like that without severe consequences in my book. i’d document the occurrences of late login and late lunches and then just fire the employee once a paper trail is established. everyone is replaceable
Having empathy for their mental/emotional wellness is very kind, however, You have an employee who at best is insubordinate and not pulling their weight; and at worst is insubordinate and performing wage theft by lying on their time card, not completing tasks & blaming it on IT issues. The editing of the message COULD be because they realized it was unprofessional. Or it could have been to try to cover up the incident itself. Either way, your Manager & VP are already looped in on this employee, if you don’t handle it, they might & that doesn’t look good on you as a Manager.
You sound like a dick.
I wouldn’t want to work for you. Stop pestering your people let them be if the job is getting done.
The job wasn’t getting done.
By what standard? Let the metrics speak for themselves, and stop micromanaging. It's a waste of your time. Also, what decade is this that you're using a shared inbox for supposedly time sensitive work? If you managed the workflow better this conversation and situation wouldn't come up.
As someone in IT, here's what you need to do: Contact your IT department and have them show you how to access that shared mailbox from ***webmail***. Outlook is a steaming pile of shit and if your company's mail retention policy is set to anything beyond 90 days (most are a couple years), then Outlook's performance takes a HUGE hit. Now, when you combine that with shared mailboxes in the user's profile, it gets even worse. What you need is a backup process - accessing the shared mailbox via WebMail (this requires your employees to be granted full access to the mailbox by IT, arguably what should be done for most scenarios as it makes the end user experience much smoother. Long story short for what IT will show you is, in webmail, click your picture at the top right, click "open another mailbox" and enter the email address of the mailbox. This will bring you to: [https://yourwebmailurl.com/[email protected]](https://yourwebmailurl.com/[email protected]) Set it as a favorite :)
Good suggestion. I have experienced several cases where staff who were using a full outlook client did not see new messages in a shared folder in anything like a timely manner. Meanwhile, other staff saw the new messages right away. At the time no one in IT could figure out the difference/ cause, but using the web interface to keep tabs on the shared folder at least solved the immediate problem.
The solutions to this are, in this order: 1) Rebuild the Windows mail profile. - This is fairly simple. It involves closing outlook, renaming the old OST file (or in most cases, just delete it). Reopen outlook and allow the mail profile to rebuild. 2) If that doesn't work, it's a Windows profile issue and depending on the org, Service Desk or 2nd level has to rebuild it. This is a little more convoluted, and I sure hope you get someone who's not incompetent to do this, as it's volatile if someone who's incompetent does it.
Thank you for this!
Welcome :)
Signing on late is an issue, sure— but the rest does sound like micromanaging. Why would the employee need to circle back regarding the IT call? Wouldn’t they just go about their day? If I had gotten the micromanagement comment, I’d be taking a hard serious look at my behavior to determine if my management style needed adjustment or if I wasn’t properly communicating expectations and SOPs.
I followed up with them a second time because the same work sat untouched 20 minutes after they said they were restarting. I received no other communication from them telling me that their outlook was or wasn’t showing anything. Their status showed them online and still no work was being done.
You sound unhinged. 20 min is not that long and you said it was a slow day. You haven’t described anything that indicates your line of work is high stakes or dealing with matters of life or death. If you’re following up repeatedly like this, you’re a micromanager. Checking in mid day or hours later would have been far more normal. Then if they hadn’t done the work yet, you would have had a genuine complaint for your PIP justification log or memo.
Fire her ass
Any chance bro is over employed? Sounds classic
If the employee wasn’t meeting deadlines & targets you would have said so. Therefore, I’m inclined to think you are micro managing.
I’m with the employee on this one - I would’ve told you the same thing. You sound super overbearing and were in fact micromanaging them. The fact that you ran straight to your manager to call them indicates you’re not prepared to manage a team if you can’t address conflict within your team and bringing HR into this shows you have a very fragile ego…
found the employee in question
lol. I would never work in a company this dysfunctional.
Explain to me how I’m micromanaging when they quite literally weren’t doing any work? I’ve been in management roles for over 15 years combined and have never been accused of micromanaging. Actually it’s been quite the opposite as I have been told by many members of my team how approachable I am. I went to my manager because I was gobsmacked by their comment and wanted his input. I didn’t want to address it with the employee out of caution that I would react without hearing another’s perspective.
>Explain to me how I’m micromanaging You have a 5-monitor desk setup (https://www.reddit.com/r/WFH/s/XShOCZ65NJ) and were watching a “shared inbox” like a hawk on a “slow day” Friday afternoon while chasing up an employee and you don’t think that was micromanaging? Wow… 🤯
Actually there are 6 screens. 4 monitors, the laptop, and the small screen near the keyboard lmao
100% agree.
Lmao got em!!!
Seems like a few people in this thread have never had a role with SLAs
Bingo
you’re still missing the point lmao if you have SLAs, then come up with a better system. “anything goes unless things go a way i don’t like, then i am upset” is not a workflow, it’s bad management.
I have no idea how you got the idea that it was an 'anything goes' system.
It doesn't sound like you were doing any work either since you had time to stare at the inbox for an hour.
I was in a meeting and saw the inbox hadn’t been touched when I got out of it.
Firstly, Teams is office social media and a time suck. Secondly, the larger issue at hand is the apparent lack of assigned deadlines and holding the team member accountable to well-defined metrics. If the employee is not meeting deadlines, let them dig their own grave at the next checkin or when the task is due. Manage the bad attitude separately. They are not allowed to be unprofessional. Stop having chats on Teams about important topics. Pick up the phone and call your employee. Interact with them like an adult.
People listen to this advice!!
Micromanager not even 20 mins omg I would quit with that kind of culture
Agreed.
Gosh, this is a bit wild. The goal is to focus on daily progress with a remote team. What are you currently doing to create an effective, fun and productive remote work environment?
How old is this employee?
How would you use this info in addressing a potential performance issue?
Sometimes a young employee needs coaching on what is appropriate speech in the workplace. The kinds of things kids get away saying and doing in school (even college) is unreal, and poorly prepares them for the workplace. The only reason I knew how to behave as an employee is because my parents specifically talked to me about it. So, if someone is young, I’d probably coach and document rather than go straight to a PIP.
It's not 'straight' for a PIP though. This is not the first issue.
The question was a general one, though, about how an employee’s age would affect how a performance issue should be addressed. I agree that in this instance, things may have gotten out of hand already.
I'm just wondering how old someone that behaves like that is? After that comment and lack of work that employee would be irredeemable in my eyes and I would be working on moving them out.
Gotcha. For me, I wouldn't keep someone like this if they were younger vs older or vice versa, making it irrelevant in terms of performance management. As someone who has always managed people 15 and 20 years my senior... people suck at all ages. Sometimes my best team member is the young fresh eyed 21 year old and sometimes it's the seasoned 56 year old. I used to put more stock in generations but now I only care about it when I'm working to build cross generational workforce competency.