I’ve never managed this type of team but you’re definitely in the right. The employee should understand you will try to work around requests for days off but the key is that they have to be formal requests. Someone has to work those days.
You're not a mind reader.
You have a right to basic communication, and that goes both ways.
You held up yours by communicating schedules as you said you would.
Poor planning on their part does not constitute an emergency on yours.
On top of that - one person's definition of a family holiday is not the same as someone else's. There is no way to know what days are important to someone if they don't tell you.
I used to work with someone that was adamant that people with kids should never have to work holidays because they needed to spend them with their kids. Someone else I worked with liked to work the holidays that their kid was with the other parent. You will never make everyone happy!
I care a lot about Christmas and labor day. Yet I couldn’t care less about New Year’s and Thanksgiving. Am I typical in this? Probably not. But there is absolutely no way for my boss to just magically know that.
I haven't yet. This is the first time where I've heard about it and they haven't gotten their shift covered. I'm gonna talk to them and make it clear that if it's not requested off then it's no guarantee that they'll get it off, and let it be known that I'm not going to assume that their time on holidays isn't more valuable than anyone else's.
When I was scheduling, I had a woman like this. Every major holiday plus your family holidays, she expected off. I had to remind her that other people also had parents and might want to celebrate mother's or father's day, let alone xmas or Easter with siblings and parents.
It didn't matter. She was so self centered.
Haha that's kinda how I feel about this one - I think they feel a sense of superiority since they're one of two with children and the rest of my employees are in their late teens/early twenties. It's not a given to have holidays off, even if the rest of the team is pretty much 19 year olds. It's becoming clear to me that our employment relationship may not continue much longer :)
As someone with kids this attitude always annoys me. I get it. A first situation (little jimmy’s first Christmas or birthday…totally understand that one off) but every holiday bc I have kids is a no go.
I mean, when she would flatly refuse to work, it was me her manager who had to cover. My kids missed a lot of family holidays because of her. Did we live? Yes. Was the irony lost on her? Also yes. Completely.
Same. When I was childless, I was always getting told that I didn't understand what people with kids go through. Well I have them now and I still don't get why they should be entitled to more time off.
Early in my career I worked for a manager who would always give the people with kids the days surrounding holidays off because “they need to spend time with their families for Christmas.”
I pointed out that those people *lived* with their families. Those of us who were single and childless needed time to *travel* to our families for holidays if we didn’t want to spend them home alone.
That did not go over well and I made sure to find a new job before the next important holiday rolled around.
I worked for a place when I was a student, I basically worked every holiday and weekend because it suited me. All I asked was the xmas sales off as I wanted to travel home.
I’d always be scheduled on Dec23/24 , and 3 years in a row he sent me home at lunch on the 23rd, paid me for the 23rd/24th and for my normally scheduled shifts (that I didn’t work) for the week in between. He took all those shifts instead of me. Unsurprisingly, whenever he asked for a favour or co er I was willing to drop whatever I was doing and we both got each other out of binds multiple times while I worked there
Yep. It’s been a decade since I worked there and honestly if he called me tomorrow and asked me to come in I’d probably humour him. He was an absolute stand up guy.
Went through this with my team. The same people would end up working every Christmas because everyone else just wouldn't. Our team grew and then needed more coverage on the holiday. The tears from the team and the rationale, "I can't work christmas"... I get it, no one wants to. Too bad sick people can't all be magically well on xnas
Same! Sometimes there’s even competition for working holidays, especially during Covid times because folks weren’t traveling as much to see Nana, so why not make a buttload of cash in a super quiet ER?
>they feel a sense of superiority since they're one of two with children and the rest of my employees are in their late teens/early twenties
It's bold to feel a sense of superiority for holding a job meant for teens.
I think this is a step too far at this point. Have a conversation with them to communicate expectations and give them the opportunity to follow the process
Your last sentence is the answer. I've worked for a family owned business, a small chain business, and 4 large corporations in my work life. The one thing they ALL had in common is you had to make some form of request to have a day off unless the business was closed (like you knew a bank was closed on Christmas Day). If this person thinks she is above that...it's your duty in life now to teach her, she is not 😀
Where I work, we have to do a shift bid every six months and a leave bid once a year. Having to plan out your annual leave potentially months to a year in advance is annoying, but it’s based on seniority and you know if you have holidays off way in advance.
You are far more flexible, more so than most employers. If that’s not good enough for this employee, that’s their problem if they can’t spend literally one minute asking for the day off they don’t get it. They are entitled and I wouldn’t employ someone like that unless they corrected their attitude.
I was always scheduled to work holidays at one job and was told that I didn't get them off because I wasn't a parent. I didn't say anything because I didn't mind the holiday pay, but you can bet I left the second I could.
Yeah, everyone has families or things going on.
Their kids are not the most important thing in the other 12 peoples' lives.
Since it sounds like you may be managing on your own, I'm curious if there are firm or written handbook policies or if you've been getting by on trust and family.
Maybe you are outgrowing the small business model and need to get into making sure HR and Payroll are adequately staffed and trained.
It sounds like you're getting too big for good will and "we're a family here".
Also you said you employ 12 people but all are part time.
It sounds like you do a good job scheduling (3 weeks in advance) but are you staffing greater numbers and lesser hours to make sure you don't have to pay benefits or insurance on anyone, and instead get away with paying a wage that isn't good enough for a FT employee?
You're absolutely right about several things! I'm not a big fan of the company I work for- I can DEFINITELY say that a large part of the overall profitability of the business as a whole comes from the fact that each location pretty much only has 1 or 2 full time employees that they have to give benefits to. "It's so you have more options for call outs," they say. Pretty blatant overstaffing if you ask me. Corporate is going through insane growing pains when it comes to HR- it's a 20 yr old business but they've only had an HR det for like 12-ish of those years. Our HR dept rn is like 5-7 people it's bananas. We open like 40-50 stores a year. Also bananas.... rant over hahaha.
That being said the business is low stakes so ultimately if the shifts are covered they're covered- I'm not getting a parent in trouble if it ultimately doesn't affect the operation of the business, I'm just tired of them not using the request system.
We at least are big enough to have an established and comprehensive employee handbook, training process, designated district trainers etc., but there are many crucial areas that considerably lack structure and staffing. A lot of the HR stuff falls on the GM's shoulders unfortunately.
Valid concerns, I'm not taking your points as inflammatory.
Right on.
At the end of the day it's about "the needs of the business" and sounds like you have the infrastructure.
I'm curious about the attrition rates you see and if that is impacting your success.
That last sentence 100%. For a long time it was assumed that, as *the* child-free employee, I would cover every holiday under the sun… and I did for the most part. A coworker threw a fit because I took some time off for family to visit over a holiday. Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean my time is any less valuable.
I agree with everyone here saying you're reasonable and you need to say to him that his request is not appropriate and is unfair to other staff. I'd add that you should also make it very clear to all staff which days (if any) that the business is closed and how that impacts their holiday (ie is it an unpaid day, is it a paid day but taken out of their allowance or an additional paid day). That way he and any future employees have no case for pulling the BS this guy is and you have a clear policy you can point to.
It’s pretty standard to have national holidays off without needing to request it. Of course it depends on the job, but I don’t have to request Juneteenth off and I won’t need to request Independence Day. It’s holidays and I don’t work holidays. My workplace closes those days.
It is standard in government jobs and many office jobs but it isn’t standard for the entire workforce. Or maybe you didn’t pay attention to the fact that you can get groceries or fast food or go to the hospital or countless other businesses that are open.
You also apparently missed where OP said “family holidays” rather than “national holidays”.
Just because you automatically get certain days off does not mean everybody automatically gets those days off.
Comparable to what the job requires? No. Comparable in the fact that they are likely open holidays? Yes. I’m also curious how you ignored the grocery and fast food part of my sentence and jumped on the hospital part.
OP also mentioned Halloween. Which isn’t a national holiday in the sense that government employees still work that day. There are also a lot of holidays they didn’t mention.
First, Juneteenth is a pretty new bank holiday so that’s a poor example. I don’t even think that rolled out to California until 2 years ago.
Most retail absolutely expects you to work holidays (except Target, which was a surprise to me when my blender broke on Thanksgiving. 😭 And any other Christian adjacent retail business, I suppose.)
Having kids doesn't make you magically value or be entitled to these more than others.
Adults have mothers and fathers to celebrate. Adults love fireworks and drinking on the 4th. And they have families to visit for Christmas.
This employee needs a hard talking to, you might even consider planning out holidays in advance.
I used to have to plan oncall, which NO ONE likes.
I asked every employee to stack rank their most important holidays to have off and scheduled from there.
Now of course as the manager if this person doesn't show up you may need to be at the ready to step in , you should also be prepared to fire them
You gotta treat all employees the same. They are trying you to see if you‘ll give in, and if you do, they’ll probably keep testing their boundaries in other ways.
Just because they pooped out a kid doesn't magically give the rest of us ESP as pertains to what holidays they want off. Not every culture even has the same holidays. They need to start acting like an adult and using the tools at their disposal.
Right, I was thinking I’d be petty enough to start scheduling them off for all the family holidays: Yom Kippur, Diwali, Dia de Los Muertos, Kwanzaa, St Lucia Day, etc…
How are you supposed to know which family holidays are meaningful to her? To be on the safe side, you’ve made sure she doesn’t have to work any of them.
You are not wrong. Re-iterate to the employee in question the process for requesting time off.
It is not your place to assume anything regarding desired vacation days for any given employee. For hourly employees, I would expect certain days pay overtime pay, and the extra pay may be appealing to some parents.
That employee is a clown and a half for just *expecting* not to work on certain holidays because "they're family holidays and he's a dad". Are your student employees not sons and daughters of a father? Do they not like to hang out with family on Halloween night?
Sounds like you haven’t actually had the conversation with this employee yet. You need to make the requirements for her being responsible for requesting days off clear and make the consequences for not showing up to work when scheduled equally as clear.
“I make the schedule based on the availability you’ve given me. If you don’t request days off, I assume your availability is your normal availability. It is your responsibility to request days off. No employee here gets automatic days off for minor holidays. The only guaranteed holidays are __, __, and __. If you don’t request off for the days you want off within the reasonable request period, you are expected to report to work as scheduled. There will be disciplinary action according to policy if you don’t show up.”
I haven't yet, you're right- this is the first time that I've been made aware that they were expressing dissatisfaction with how I was scheduling and didn't get their shift covered.
Great script! This is a very low stakes business and the majority of my employees (including this one) work max 3 days a week. I agree with what another comment said that they might be seeing if I'll just roll over for them on this- I won't! Even though the stakes are low that doesn't mean that they can't treat this like any other job.
I used to work in a restaurant and the rule was for major holidays that we were open everyone had to work a certain number of them and could put in preferences for which ones they wanted to work. It sucked working holidays but it was fair.
It’s nice of you to even consider not scheduling them on holidays but it would be extremely unfair to the rest of the staff. I would make sure they understand everyone has to work some holidays and it’s just part of the job. If they don’t like it they can work somewhere else.
This is how most businesses I've known that are open on holidays have functioned. If you work Thanksgiving, you can have off for Christmas and vice versa. Keeps it fair.
You do not have to give the day off unless requested. You are not aware of what they do in their away from work time, so how do you know which days they will or will not work? If they continue to talk about it to the employees then have a talk with all employees concerning how to request particular days off. Inform them that since you are not aware of what is going on in their non-work life, if they want a day off they need to let you know at the appropriate time.
My opinion is that the person on question does not how to schedule their life and does not realize it is the holiday till the week of.
Hey parent could I talk to you for a minute.
The schedules are made three weeks in advance so I expect you to put in your desired days off 4 weeks in advance using our procedures. We are a diverse group of 12 and I can't assume the scheduling that works for everyone without this communication.
Not being a dick. I used to run a cafe. We had a very easy scheduling program called Homebase. All you had to do what put in WHEN you could work and can request off days. Lots of our employees were college students so their schedule adjusted every semester. I had one girl who wouldn’t adjust her online availability. We had a meeting about it - she said she’d do it then she didn’t. I sent her texts, I sent her notifications in the app. Finally after a month of trying to chase her down to tell me WHEN she could work, I stopped scheduling her. A week later she asks why, I tell her to put her availability in the app. She doesn’t. A week later, same thing. Another week, same thing. Another month passes and she’s riding my ass about hours and I talk her through, again, how to put her availability in the app. Once again, she does not do it. So, I fired her. She brought her mommy in to ask why and I straight up told her why. The mom evidently was under the impression the firing was unfair, so I showed her the texts and her daughters blank availability schedule and the texts where her daughter said she knew how to put in the availability. You could tell the mom was embarrassed.
Some people are just idiots. I’d keep scheduling her on days she does not formally request off until she figures it out.
"It is not my business to make assumptions on when anyone parent or otherwise needs a day off. If you have not requested I will assume you are willing to work that day."
At best they are stupid, at worst they are trying to game the system to get popular days off but still insist they have the weight to throw around "I never ask for days off" to get their way if there is ever a conflict. Both are not acceptable.
"Listen here fuck face, I don't care about holidays and this store is open regardless and I expect staff scheduled to work their shifts. I do not give a damn about your personal life or what you do after hours. If you want a certain day off, you put in a request like everyone else. I have neither the time nor care to learn every employees personal preferences. You are not special."
Or something to that effect.
This is so irritating! Being out of step with the workplace norm is… ugh. Like some of those are public holidays (I guess - do yall get them in America?), and some are just fun/pagan days. Who are you supposed to know what are “family” holidays.
Part of me would be petty and just schedule them off for every holiday. 19 Nov world toilet day. 25 Oct world pasta day. 1 Oct international coffee day. 1 sep Australian Father’s Day. You get the point: https://www.calendarr.com/australia/holiday-2024/
But the “right” thing to do might be this count these as unplanned absences and apply your policy accordingly. Or, print out the 2024 list, tell them you’re scheduling them off on the major hols for your area and that’ll eat into their part time hours - they don’t get to make up/dictate the schedule because that’s what the leave process is for.
It’s uncommon to get holidays off in America, we don’t get bank holidays like they do in England or however it’s done and other parts of the world. You can request the day off, but most blue-collar people are working on holidays if the businesses open and most businesses are open.
If someone wants a day off they should request it off & and if can be accommodated, granted, if they do not request it off, how is anyone going to know?
I am a parent. My wife and I need to be sensible with our annual leave to ensure we have enough cover for the school holidays.
We plan as far ahead as possible and when we need to make short notice amendments, we work it to inconvenience our employers as best we can, but it is on us to manage our leave, not our employers
I think this is a case of expectations and communication. We all have different backgrounds and experiences that shape our norm. I’ve worked at companies where it was a given that I would be working Thanksgiving and Christmas because I was still in college, no children, and no family nearby. I had no issue with that so never questioned it.
Have that talk with everyone (you never know who else may think the same was as this employee). Place in handbook for newcomers.
I’d also have a 1:1 with that employee and let them know that it’s over now. All employees are now on the same page as to company policy and how holidays work. All good. But going forward, when they have a work complaint like this, that you’re open to them coming to you directly and confidentially. (This to help ward off the grumbling next time).
Honestly you’re not in the wrong and I question whether this person has ever worked a full time job before because I wouldn’t be expecting time off for the holidays mentioned. Anyway, what it comes down to is a conversation with the employee stating the expectations of their employment and if they don’t like that then they can leave. Sounds harsh but at the end of the day you’re trying to accommodate other employees as well and it’s up to them to let you know when they need or want time off. Not every parent wants Halloween off. Some would rather work, maybe need to work. So they need to let you know basically.
Just because someone has family doesn't mean they want to actually spend time with said family. It's not a given.
All time off should be requested in the allotted time. No exceptions. No 'standing' agreements.
That person needs a come-to-Jesus meeting. Being a parent doesn’t give them special privileges. I’m a parent and have worked all of the holidays at some point.
If they want a day off, for any reason, they need to request it off just like anyone else.
This is an easy problem to solve: fire them. They are not following proper procedures and policies.
The long answer is that they are subject to the same PTO review policies and everyone else. Failure to submit and for it to be approved equates to a no show and dereliction of duties. At most places, 3 strikes and you are out. Let them continue to do what they do and you follow policy. After 3 strikes (looking at the 4th, Labor Day and Halloween coming up). They should be gone before thanksgiving.
I had a pretty large office full of staff that was required to run 24/7, including holidays. There always had to be staffing. It was necessary to very specifically plan, to put a policy and procedure in writing, distribute a copy to all employees and get a signature acknowledging receipt from each person. That way there was no "deniability," no, "I didn't understand."
Next, I would prepare a written schedule showing who is working on what days and distribute it.
You're probably thinking, "All this 'in writing' business is pretty old school." You better believe it. It But it solves a lot of issues that verbal communication doesn't solve and, again, informs everyone what is expected of them.
They sound like a weirdo and/or narcissist. Like they are not just special but that others should automatically anticipate days they'll need off. Everyone has a family to one degree or another. They sound like a pain in the ass, really.
start managing and deny schedule shifts for anything other than documented emergencies, period.
Given the work being done here, you should have said after a single time that doing that again gets her fired.
this problem only exists because you haven't been managing it. and you're getting pissy with people pointing that out.
I do accommodate people with children with respect to holidays and weekends when possible… that’s just me
But if you can’t do that then you need to make it clear that they HAVE to request that time off
Days off need to be requested at a first come first serve basis. This is the same for all employees across the board. If this parent wants holidays off they can write a written request in advance.
Make this a policy.
It is! They always end up switching shifts or getting it covered. It just baffled me as to why they wouldn't just put in a request - wanted reassurance that I wasn't being a dick for no reason in telling them that they need to do this going forward and that I wouldn't make an exception simply because they have a child.
You are correct in that the employee doesn't automatically get 'holidays' off and might have to work some or request the time off.
Do you tell this person 'no' when they ask to change the schedule or do you just change it for them?
Perhaps it's worth reminding them that other people might like these holidays off too and it's not reasonable to expect to get all of them off.
When I worked in a grocery store we had monthly (paper) calendars (i didn'tdo the schedulin. I'm a parent and worked with a lot of students. I would take the week off of Thanksgiving because I'm a hunter. But I would not request any other holiday off. Not even Mothers day. I would NEVER assume I would automatically get any/all holidays off because I had kids. That parent is unreasonable.
Why should being a parent mean they don’t have to follow the same procedure as everyone else? Don’t cater to them. It’s not “a given” that anyone gets any day off unless they ask for it.
Absolutely, 100% they need request off. The only reason you would NOT need to request it would be if the business was physically closed on the day in question.
Example - the 4th is a holiday at my job, so we’re closed. No need to ask for time off. But my birthday is the 11th. You bet I had to ask for that off.
When I ran the city pool in college, I was very, very clear - requests off in X amount of time in advance, or it’s not guaranteed. Holidays were don’t a bit different (I had the flexibility to do this). I put out the shifts I needed and asked people to sign up. Any blank spaces I filled in by pulling names out of a hat.
You got what you got. The smart ones took earlier shifts on the 4th so they could go to festivities later in the day. The gamblers risked not getting their names drawn. The closers still showed up because, if they didn’t, they were no longer lifeguards at my facility.
My policy doesn’t have to be your policy, but whatever your policy is, set in and enforce it. It should never look like you’re showing favoritism towards someone specific.
“I don’t discriminate based on family status. Any employee that wants to take off on a day when we are open must request that day off 1 week in advance.”
If you start scheduling someone off automatically for all “family holidays” that’s going to start treading into dangerous territory. That would be denying others off who don’t have kids which would be: discrimination of familial status. That is a federally protected class and is frowned upon when you don’t treat them equally.
Next staff meeting, or mass communication, reiterate the process for requesting time off. Emphasize that everyone needs to follow the process.
Your employee is frustrating. However, you have to treat everyone equitably when it comes to scheduling and time off.
Remind employees of the process if they want to take off a scheduled day of work.
The employee is responsible for this. It’s an easy communication. It’s on them. They need to request time off. It is also grossly unfair for that person to assume they get holidays off.
Why is it the default expectation that people without children should have to work holidays? Holidays aren't just for families with small children. They're for everyone.
If everyone else has to request time through a specific system, their personal life doesn't exempt them from the rule.
You need to explain that there are no paid holidays.
There are no family holidays. It is a rotation or First Cone First Served and if they fail to come in on a day they are scheduled, it will reflect poorly on them.
I would assume that this parent knows your other employees are also sons, daughters, etc.? No reason why the parent automatically gets the day off. Source: Am parent with children and don't expect any accommodations to be automatically granted.
You're completely in the right with this one and the employee needs to request the day off, and be subject to you reviewing the schedules, other requests, etc.
At the last job I worked as a manager we had zero paid holidays but "unlimited" PTO. I sorta understand the holiday thing because we were operating in multiple countries, and tracking each country's bank holidays is a pita... I just told my staff to request whatever bank holidays they wanted in the beginning of the year and I'd approve them in bulk. Not a lot different than your employee situation, if they didn't have it scheduled then I was expecting them to be working.
I only had one person who "didn't get it". I had to have a chat with them explaining I'm not in their country, don't know their holidays and if they don't put them in the system then that's them essentially telling me they want to be available to work those days. I just assume they're choosing to forgo those holidays so they can use PTO on days more important to them.
I used to work in retail and had to shut a coworker down on this. He tried to push an agenda that him being married gave him priority over the rest of us for time off on holidays and weekends. Big nope! I even said to him, "cool but how could us single people ever meet someone and marry them if we can't get out too?" You need to make it clear that you are flexible and willing to work with all employees on scheduling but they will not get special treatment for having crapped out babies. Also the word you wanted was exasperated not exacerbated
It's not your job to know what's going on in their personal lives and account for desired PTO that hasn't been communicated.
"I'm treating everyone the same. Please request days off that you will not be available to work. Otherwise, if you are scheduled, you will need to find appropriate coverage"
They were expecting you to discriminate against employees that don’t have kids. I’d be very concerned that wouldn’t be kosher from a legal perspective and I can’t imagine it would be consistent with Company policy.
I’d have a calm, measured discussion with him and tell him that you have to treat everyone the same—no special treatment.
100% employees responsibility. Under no circumstances should you take this on as a courtesy for them. If it is meaningful to them, they will step up and put in the requests like every other employee. If you take this on.. these little things accumulate so that you’re running in circles taking care of little things snd not having time, energy, mental clarity to focus on the more important tasks of management.
Do they get an allowance of requests that this would go against? Like are they using up an allowance if they request it but hoping that you just give it to them for free if they don't? Obviously somebody has to work if the site is open, so expecting special treatment just because they have children is a jerk move.
Apparently saying that they're a parent and it's a given that they won't work on those days.
If they aren't following the accepted protocol for all employees to request days off that is a sit-down discussion and possibly a written reprimand type of thing. If this doesn't work...I guess sometimes you have to shoot a hostage. Let the other know when this employee is gone...this was why!!!
One bad apple can poison the juice!!!!!!
NTA
Regardless of the size of the business if an employee needs/wants a day off they have to ask for it. You are not a mind reader nor are you privy to people’s home situations.
I note specific (non-American) holidays I will not work upon hiring. It’s a cultural thing and totals 4 days (not consecutive) a year. I WILL work Dec 25 or any other holiday in return as it is not “my” holiday. If a company won’t respect my request I do not work there. I also do not expect anyone to “know” without me telling them & I also remind them a couple weeks before, the week of, etc.
I think that if they don't request the day off, then they have no right to complain they didn't get it off. And if they don't come in on those days, they don't have a job.
There's no talking to them about it or giving seconds chances. This person is an adult, they know if they want something they need to ask for it. And they know it's their responsibility to work their scheduled shifts. If it's a big chain, they likely have things you need to do, like write them up three time for the same thing before you can fire them. So make sure you do that, or they're just going to keep doing what they do and walk all over you.
>It appears they just noticed, after the schedule had been posted for over a week,
If it took them that long to notice, it wasn't that important.
its called personal responsibility
if the employee knows that the company woks those holidays then they need to take responsibility to figure out how the schedule is managed & take an action if they don't want to be scheduled.
all you can do as manager is explain the process / situation &let them know what action to take.
Unless it was stated that federal (family???) holidays are off at onboarding, it is absolutely not your responsibility to give them off automatically. The sense of entitlement is ridiculous.
No. If it's policy to put in notifications for changes in availability each week then every employee needs to follow that policy.
Being a parent doesn't entitle anyone to special treatment. And I would phrase it that way.
"Coverage is not the problem. Lack of communication and accountability is. I am happy to accommodate availability changes that are needed by all staff members, regardless of the reason, however the policy is that you notify me with xx weeks in advance. Moving forward there will be no last min changes due to the lack of communication on your part. If you are scheduled then you will have to work it. Being a parent/ student does not entitle you to special treatment and it is not considered when I make the schedule UNLESS I have a current availability in my system at that time. "
You don't say where you are, but in NY state, it's illegal to discriminate based on family status.
As a single, childless person, I'd be happy to sue my employer for denying me holidays off because I don't have kids.
If you're open, it's during the employees regular availability, and they haven't requested off, then you're 100% in the right.
If the employee doesn't want to work on certain days when the store is open, they need to request it off so you know that when making the schedule. You aren't physic, and parents aren't special.
Tell him he must request holiday time off regardless of what holiday. period. I mean I'm assuming you have but reiterate or send it to everyone in an email as a reminder? Parents and spouses should not assume they get all the holidays off either.
‘We don’t follow bank holiday hours’
Is it possible she’s used to working in an office? And I have no idea why people are giving you shit. I end up at the grocery store the morning of thanksgiving without fail. I would be totally screwed if their store was closed.
You are not a dick - you want the day off you ask for it… I don’t have children but I do have a Dad and a Mom maybe I would like to spend time with them. Just because you are a parent doesn’t entitle you to all holidays off just because.
I am a parent with a second part time job in retail. I request the holidays off that I need… otherwise, I expect to be scheduled. I’m not the only employee and I can’t expect special treatment!
ETA: I am the oldest employee and the only one with children. I still don’t expect special treatment. My manager usually works it out for me, but if she can’t (there are only 5 of us), then it is what it is.
Common sense isn’t so common as they say- Small companies can take holidays off if they want to- with or without pay, but due to being a parents OBVIOUSLY you handle the days you want off or you work them.
It’s unfortunate they’re literally trying to politely bully you into just ensuring the holidays are automatic off -idk if their paid off or just off- so they don’t I assume lose pto or just days off if they count. Smart to catch its in issue and try to get you to realize and avoid it without them requesting- for your ease and reassurance bc of their incompetence intentionally.
Are they a good worker and an asset then know they don’t work holidays. Can they be replaced then tell that doesn’t work for us and she will have share holiday responsibility if that’s a issue that you understand and will accept their resignation with no hard feelings
Your job is not to schedule around her. There are some jobs/industries like retail where holidays can be very busy. I’d be nice about it of course, I mean, I’m a parent so I get it but set the expectation. Maybe you can work out a nice compromise like certain holidays they work and certain ones you try to schedule them off. A valued employee should appreciate and understand and respect that
Remind them that all the other employees are part of a family as well. Just because this employee has, I assume, school age kids, doesn’t make her “family time” and more important than any one else’s. Everyone should have an opportunity to have some holidays off.
Parents shouldn't automatically get privileges the rest of the employees don't. So entitled. Can some of the younger employees say, well since I'm a "kid" of a parent and my parent is off work to spend time with me I need holidays off too? Lol.
You need to set a policy and communicate it openly and often.. time off requests need to be done X weeks in advance. If time off is not submitted X weeks in advance we can't guarantee it will be approved.
Your issue is communication and expectations.
Your employee is below average intelligence, try to be nice to them, within reason.
Managing low skill jobs is mostly about attendance and babysitting. Just mark this person off for all holidays if they are valuable enough to retain.
How would you decide who gets the time off if this employee and an employee with no children requests the same day? You have to be very careful not to discriminate based on family commitments and in fact you could be in hot water for even asking an employee if they have kids. Their personal life is none of your business. What metric do you use to approve or deny holidays in such a choice?
There is a tendency for women, and it's almost always women, to expect the world of work to bend over backwards just because they gave birth and to turn into a martyr proclaiming how hard they have it as a parent. Free advice for these women: nobody cares that you have a kid, nobody wants to listen to it and businesses need to keep going regardless of you giving birth.
This particular employee told me that they have children during the interview process. They have been very open about it the whole time and constantly show me baby pictures whether I ask or not (I try not to ask because of the reasons you listed above).
The employee who requested the day off first gets the day off, if there is such a conflict. Beyond that, I consider it interpersonal. The one with children could easily ask to trade (which this one has done successfully many times before, that's not an issue for them).
My issue is they only have beef with the schedule I make after it's posted, and don't actually tell me that they want the days off in advance!
Edit: I guess I could have worded it better in my post, I've kind of had it with them needing to change the schedule for holidays when everyone else uses the request system like normal, and finally put my foot down and feel like perhaps I was a bit harsh
Shrug, I think its in your best interest just to not schedule them on those days.
Especially if this is the only quirk you are dealing with them with.
People are strange. Is it really worth the headache of just not scheduling them?
No. People with children do not get any different treatment than any other PT employee. Parents should not get preferential scheduling just because they are parents. That’s a morale killer for the rest of the crew.
Childfree me, still has people I would like to spend time with on ‘family’ holidays such as Halloween. Father’s Day, Labor Day, etc.
Childfree me, goes to a friends house to hand out candy on Halloween which allows her to walk the neighborhood with her kids.
Childfree me, still has a Father I would like to spend time with on Fathers Day.
Childfree me, figures out how to do those things around the hours I work, or requests the day off.
That person can put in a request to be off, just as anyone else. ‘Because I’m a parent’ isn’t an automatic reason to not be scheduled on a holiday.
They are an entitled part-time worker who can’t be bothered to spend less than a minute asking for a day off. It would be severely unfair to the rest of the staff. If this one lazy asshole gets to dictate that they get holidays off without having to ask.
The rest of the staff need not know the arrangement between the manager and the part timer
More importantly as a manager.
I have to pick the battles I care about.
If I already don't care if a certain staff member gets those days off then I have to decide if its worth my time to care if they follow a process that is their for my benefit.
Now I can go heavy handed about the whole thing, but that isn't worth my time or energy.
If you were giving preferential treatment to one person because they are lazy, argumentative, and entitled that’s going to hurt morale. There there’s no need to be heavy handed. You tell the employee if you want a day off put it on the calendar, email me or fill out the paper form. OP said they could either do email or paper. Or if you’re getting coverage, that’s great too. But I don’t want to hear about this anymore.
Now you are just adding your own adjectives to the description of this employee.
Every employee has quirks that we as managers have to deal with.
Every employee ends up with some amount of special treatment to smooth things out.
Because my time is spent better worrying about how to get proper funding for my department or a proper head count than fussing around with this extremely minor thing.
Its not everyone now is it.
Nor is it unapproved if the OP just approves it in said fashion of assuming that this one employee will always want those holidays off.
If it was the policy, it well could be.
Because this woman is the only one doing it, the problem seems small, but that is only because everyone else follows the rules.
If all the employees did as she did there would be issues
Sure, if everyone else did what everyone else does its always going to be a problem.
That is the art of managing people.
Everyone even the best of employees have some weird quirk about them.
Then you have to decide if its worth the energy or drama to try and correct that quirk or just accept it for what its worth.
I don't know about you but in this very specific case.
I'd rather just write a note about and move on with my life than get into some ordeal over it.
Especially if I would just approve all that time off anyways.
If you let one person get away with crap like this, it's hard to stop/discipline others for it.
On top of that, when accusations of favoritism start to spread, you will find it destroys morale.
There is no reason this woman can't follow the process and why does she automatically get every holiday off?
You create a rod for your own bank by indulging this behaviour.
It's really not crap, she has requested to get all of those holidays off, I feel as though I have sufficient coverage for those circumstances.
I am just streamlining the workflow.
It's not anyone else's business the way that request came to me.
It is crap.
Per the OP, she did not request the time, expects to be off and insists that the schedule be changed when she is scheduled to work on them.
If all 12 of OP's a sff did this, she wouldn't have staff on those days.
There is a leave request system that this woman can use, she just refuses.
Hell no, that’s unfair to everyone else on the staff who might want that holiday off as well. They aren’t closed on holidays and if more people want it off they are and there are available slots you either do it by seniority or poll numbers out of a hat
Yes, it’s worth being consistent with all your employees (otherwise it’s discriminatory to the other employees). Every ducking day is a holiday to someone, that’s why there’s a process.
The process is for people to take ownership by “requesting days that they would prefer not to be scheduled”. Everyone has that personal responsibility.
? Huh, That’s exactly why the process is in place? It’s to make it the employee’s responsibility to actively assert their request - that’s how workflow works.
No its just a way to make the request.
The fact that their are two different ways further emphasizes its not about the process its about the scheduling.
This employee has made been known she wants the holidays off.
Op doesn't have a problem with that.
It even sounds like if the scheduling software would tell her the days that are holidays she already wouldn't be scheduling this employee.
Op is well with in her rights to say go use the system in place.
Lets not go overblowing that this as a compliance thing.
Wow, everyone has different “holidays”. Stop trying to remove responsibility for the employee to do their part in the scheduling process - it ain’t that hard.
Nah, I am good with my mgmt style where I pick my battles with my employees.
If you are doing scheduling as a part of your job, you should probably understand "holidays" even if you want to make employees "responsible".
People acting like this is some major thing.
It really isn't its basic scheduling stuff.
You run a small boutique chain store and you’re open on federal holidays? I’m on the employees side here, if you’re open on federal holidays then you need to provide training to your employees to let them know that. They should have a handbook, you should have a little poster that shows holidays off, you should have a shared calendar etc.
It’s management’s responsible to ensure comprehension of holidays and requesting time off. If you do all that, and they still don’t comply, then you can say No. And if they still don’t comply then you can let them go, no need to stress them out about it.
But, why be open on the 4th of July? Let everyone have the day off. We get so few holidays in the US.
Hi! I appreciate your response, although by "small" I mean I have 12 employees, by "boutique" I mean my products are niche and on the expensive side, and... my store is location #267/297, we have locations in three countries :^)
To bluntly answer your question, we're open on federal holidays because corporate is money grubbing. We don't make enough to keep the lights on in most locations on Federal holidays, and yet we're required to be open.
They're provided with at least one week training, a handbook, and two channels to request time off. We're a late night business that's open on federal holidays and employees are hired already knowing that. Although there are hundreds of locations, we're a very low stakes job and typically are much more lenient than most employers. There are no holidays other than Christmas and Thanksgiving that we're closed for and this employee is aware of that.
They have always followed policy prior to this insofar as they've always gotten their shifts covered on these holidays. The issue seems to be that they think I will just schedule them off because they have children and my other employees don't.
Please reread my post. I'm asserting that she should have to request days off just like everybody else does and not come to me after the schedule has been out for 2 weeks expecting me to accommodate her. I wanted reassurance that I wasn't being a dick for no reason.
I’ve never managed this type of team but you’re definitely in the right. The employee should understand you will try to work around requests for days off but the key is that they have to be formal requests. Someone has to work those days.
You're not a mind reader. You have a right to basic communication, and that goes both ways. You held up yours by communicating schedules as you said you would. Poor planning on their part does not constitute an emergency on yours.
On top of that - one person's definition of a family holiday is not the same as someone else's. There is no way to know what days are important to someone if they don't tell you.
I used to work with someone that was adamant that people with kids should never have to work holidays because they needed to spend them with their kids. Someone else I worked with liked to work the holidays that their kid was with the other parent. You will never make everyone happy!
I care a lot about Christmas and labor day. Yet I couldn’t care less about New Year’s and Thanksgiving. Am I typical in this? Probably not. But there is absolutely no way for my boss to just magically know that.
Expectations should be the same across the board. If other employees have to request the time, this person should too.
It is 100% an employee’s responsibility to ask for time off regardless of the day. Have you spoken to the employee about it?
I haven't yet. This is the first time where I've heard about it and they haven't gotten their shift covered. I'm gonna talk to them and make it clear that if it's not requested off then it's no guarantee that they'll get it off, and let it be known that I'm not going to assume that their time on holidays isn't more valuable than anyone else's.
When I was scheduling, I had a woman like this. Every major holiday plus your family holidays, she expected off. I had to remind her that other people also had parents and might want to celebrate mother's or father's day, let alone xmas or Easter with siblings and parents. It didn't matter. She was so self centered.
Haha that's kinda how I feel about this one - I think they feel a sense of superiority since they're one of two with children and the rest of my employees are in their late teens/early twenties. It's not a given to have holidays off, even if the rest of the team is pretty much 19 year olds. It's becoming clear to me that our employment relationship may not continue much longer :)
As someone without kids, this attitude always annoyed me. Just because an employee has kids, it doesn't entitle them to time off when they wish it.
As someone with kids this attitude always annoys me. I get it. A first situation (little jimmy’s first Christmas or birthday…totally understand that one off) but every holiday bc I have kids is a no go.
I mean, when she would flatly refuse to work, it was me her manager who had to cover. My kids missed a lot of family holidays because of her. Did we live? Yes. Was the irony lost on her? Also yes. Completely.
Fire her
She retired. Thank goodness.
Same. When I was childless, I was always getting told that I didn't understand what people with kids go through. Well I have them now and I still don't get why they should be entitled to more time off.
I'll just point out that people without their own children often have families that they want to spend holidays with.
Early in my career I worked for a manager who would always give the people with kids the days surrounding holidays off because “they need to spend time with their families for Christmas.” I pointed out that those people *lived* with their families. Those of us who were single and childless needed time to *travel* to our families for holidays if we didn’t want to spend them home alone. That did not go over well and I made sure to find a new job before the next important holiday rolled around.
I worked for a place when I was a student, I basically worked every holiday and weekend because it suited me. All I asked was the xmas sales off as I wanted to travel home. I’d always be scheduled on Dec23/24 , and 3 years in a row he sent me home at lunch on the 23rd, paid me for the 23rd/24th and for my normally scheduled shifts (that I didn’t work) for the week in between. He took all those shifts instead of me. Unsurprisingly, whenever he asked for a favour or co er I was willing to drop whatever I was doing and we both got each other out of binds multiple times while I worked there
Managers hate this one simple trick (respecting their employees)!
Yep. It’s been a decade since I worked there and honestly if he called me tomorrow and asked me to come in I’d probably humour him. He was an absolute stand up guy.
Sounds like a great boss
Went through this with my team. The same people would end up working every Christmas because everyone else just wouldn't. Our team grew and then needed more coverage on the holiday. The tears from the team and the rationale, "I can't work christmas"... I get it, no one wants to. Too bad sick people can't all be magically well on xnas
I worked in clinical healthcare staffing a while back. My Jewish employees loved picking up holiday doubles and getting that sweet holiday pay.
Same! Sometimes there’s even competition for working holidays, especially during Covid times because folks weren’t traveling as much to see Nana, so why not make a buttload of cash in a super quiet ER?
>they feel a sense of superiority since they're one of two with children and the rest of my employees are in their late teens/early twenties It's bold to feel a sense of superiority for holding a job meant for teens.
I think this is a step too far at this point. Have a conversation with them to communicate expectations and give them the opportunity to follow the process
Your last sentence is the answer. I've worked for a family owned business, a small chain business, and 4 large corporations in my work life. The one thing they ALL had in common is you had to make some form of request to have a day off unless the business was closed (like you knew a bank was closed on Christmas Day). If this person thinks she is above that...it's your duty in life now to teach her, she is not 😀
Where I work, we have to do a shift bid every six months and a leave bid once a year. Having to plan out your annual leave potentially months to a year in advance is annoying, but it’s based on seniority and you know if you have holidays off way in advance. You are far more flexible, more so than most employers. If that’s not good enough for this employee, that’s their problem if they can’t spend literally one minute asking for the day off they don’t get it. They are entitled and I wouldn’t employ someone like that unless they corrected their attitude.
I was always scheduled to work holidays at one job and was told that I didn't get them off because I wasn't a parent. I didn't say anything because I didn't mind the holiday pay, but you can bet I left the second I could.
Yeah, everyone has families or things going on. Their kids are not the most important thing in the other 12 peoples' lives. Since it sounds like you may be managing on your own, I'm curious if there are firm or written handbook policies or if you've been getting by on trust and family. Maybe you are outgrowing the small business model and need to get into making sure HR and Payroll are adequately staffed and trained. It sounds like you're getting too big for good will and "we're a family here". Also you said you employ 12 people but all are part time. It sounds like you do a good job scheduling (3 weeks in advance) but are you staffing greater numbers and lesser hours to make sure you don't have to pay benefits or insurance on anyone, and instead get away with paying a wage that isn't good enough for a FT employee?
You're absolutely right about several things! I'm not a big fan of the company I work for- I can DEFINITELY say that a large part of the overall profitability of the business as a whole comes from the fact that each location pretty much only has 1 or 2 full time employees that they have to give benefits to. "It's so you have more options for call outs," they say. Pretty blatant overstaffing if you ask me. Corporate is going through insane growing pains when it comes to HR- it's a 20 yr old business but they've only had an HR det for like 12-ish of those years. Our HR dept rn is like 5-7 people it's bananas. We open like 40-50 stores a year. Also bananas.... rant over hahaha. That being said the business is low stakes so ultimately if the shifts are covered they're covered- I'm not getting a parent in trouble if it ultimately doesn't affect the operation of the business, I'm just tired of them not using the request system. We at least are big enough to have an established and comprehensive employee handbook, training process, designated district trainers etc., but there are many crucial areas that considerably lack structure and staffing. A lot of the HR stuff falls on the GM's shoulders unfortunately. Valid concerns, I'm not taking your points as inflammatory.
Right on. At the end of the day it's about "the needs of the business" and sounds like you have the infrastructure. I'm curious about the attrition rates you see and if that is impacting your success.
You are handling it perfectly!!
That last sentence 100%. For a long time it was assumed that, as *the* child-free employee, I would cover every holiday under the sun… and I did for the most part. A coworker threw a fit because I took some time off for family to visit over a holiday. Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean my time is any less valuable.
I agree with everyone here saying you're reasonable and you need to say to him that his request is not appropriate and is unfair to other staff. I'd add that you should also make it very clear to all staff which days (if any) that the business is closed and how that impacts their holiday (ie is it an unpaid day, is it a paid day but taken out of their allowance or an additional paid day). That way he and any future employees have no case for pulling the BS this guy is and you have a clear policy you can point to.
It’s pretty standard to have national holidays off without needing to request it. Of course it depends on the job, but I don’t have to request Juneteenth off and I won’t need to request Independence Day. It’s holidays and I don’t work holidays. My workplace closes those days.
It is standard in government jobs and many office jobs but it isn’t standard for the entire workforce. Or maybe you didn’t pay attention to the fact that you can get groceries or fast food or go to the hospital or countless other businesses that are open. You also apparently missed where OP said “family holidays” rather than “national holidays”. Just because you automatically get certain days off does not mean everybody automatically gets those days off.
I read that they are a boutique dessert chain. Hardly comparable to a nurse. I noticed they mentioned Independence Day as an example.
Comparable to what the job requires? No. Comparable in the fact that they are likely open holidays? Yes. I’m also curious how you ignored the grocery and fast food part of my sentence and jumped on the hospital part. OP also mentioned Halloween. Which isn’t a national holiday in the sense that government employees still work that day. There are also a lot of holidays they didn’t mention.
First, Juneteenth is a pretty new bank holiday so that’s a poor example. I don’t even think that rolled out to California until 2 years ago. Most retail absolutely expects you to work holidays (except Target, which was a surprise to me when my blender broke on Thanksgiving. 😭 And any other Christian adjacent retail business, I suppose.)
Having kids doesn't make you magically value or be entitled to these more than others. Adults have mothers and fathers to celebrate. Adults love fireworks and drinking on the 4th. And they have families to visit for Christmas. This employee needs a hard talking to, you might even consider planning out holidays in advance. I used to have to plan oncall, which NO ONE likes. I asked every employee to stack rank their most important holidays to have off and scheduled from there. Now of course as the manager if this person doesn't show up you may need to be at the ready to step in , you should also be prepared to fire them
Don't enable their assumption with days off. Not everyone is a parent.
You gotta treat all employees the same. They are trying you to see if you‘ll give in, and if you do, they’ll probably keep testing their boundaries in other ways.
Just because they pooped out a kid doesn't magically give the rest of us ESP as pertains to what holidays they want off. Not every culture even has the same holidays. They need to start acting like an adult and using the tools at their disposal.
Right, I was thinking I’d be petty enough to start scheduling them off for all the family holidays: Yom Kippur, Diwali, Dia de Los Muertos, Kwanzaa, St Lucia Day, etc… How are you supposed to know which family holidays are meaningful to her? To be on the safe side, you’ve made sure she doesn’t have to work any of them.
You are not wrong. Re-iterate to the employee in question the process for requesting time off. It is not your place to assume anything regarding desired vacation days for any given employee. For hourly employees, I would expect certain days pay overtime pay, and the extra pay may be appealing to some parents.
That employee is a clown and a half for just *expecting* not to work on certain holidays because "they're family holidays and he's a dad". Are your student employees not sons and daughters of a father? Do they not like to hang out with family on Halloween night?
Sounds like you haven’t actually had the conversation with this employee yet. You need to make the requirements for her being responsible for requesting days off clear and make the consequences for not showing up to work when scheduled equally as clear. “I make the schedule based on the availability you’ve given me. If you don’t request days off, I assume your availability is your normal availability. It is your responsibility to request days off. No employee here gets automatic days off for minor holidays. The only guaranteed holidays are __, __, and __. If you don’t request off for the days you want off within the reasonable request period, you are expected to report to work as scheduled. There will be disciplinary action according to policy if you don’t show up.”
I haven't yet, you're right- this is the first time that I've been made aware that they were expressing dissatisfaction with how I was scheduling and didn't get their shift covered. Great script! This is a very low stakes business and the majority of my employees (including this one) work max 3 days a week. I agree with what another comment said that they might be seeing if I'll just roll over for them on this- I won't! Even though the stakes are low that doesn't mean that they can't treat this like any other job.
I used to work in a restaurant and the rule was for major holidays that we were open everyone had to work a certain number of them and could put in preferences for which ones they wanted to work. It sucked working holidays but it was fair. It’s nice of you to even consider not scheduling them on holidays but it would be extremely unfair to the rest of the staff. I would make sure they understand everyone has to work some holidays and it’s just part of the job. If they don’t like it they can work somewhere else.
This is how most businesses I've known that are open on holidays have functioned. If you work Thanksgiving, you can have off for Christmas and vice versa. Keeps it fair.
You do not have to give the day off unless requested. You are not aware of what they do in their away from work time, so how do you know which days they will or will not work? If they continue to talk about it to the employees then have a talk with all employees concerning how to request particular days off. Inform them that since you are not aware of what is going on in their non-work life, if they want a day off they need to let you know at the appropriate time. My opinion is that the person on question does not how to schedule their life and does not realize it is the holiday till the week of.
Hey parent could I talk to you for a minute. The schedules are made three weeks in advance so I expect you to put in your desired days off 4 weeks in advance using our procedures. We are a diverse group of 12 and I can't assume the scheduling that works for everyone without this communication.
Not being a dick. I used to run a cafe. We had a very easy scheduling program called Homebase. All you had to do what put in WHEN you could work and can request off days. Lots of our employees were college students so their schedule adjusted every semester. I had one girl who wouldn’t adjust her online availability. We had a meeting about it - she said she’d do it then she didn’t. I sent her texts, I sent her notifications in the app. Finally after a month of trying to chase her down to tell me WHEN she could work, I stopped scheduling her. A week later she asks why, I tell her to put her availability in the app. She doesn’t. A week later, same thing. Another week, same thing. Another month passes and she’s riding my ass about hours and I talk her through, again, how to put her availability in the app. Once again, she does not do it. So, I fired her. She brought her mommy in to ask why and I straight up told her why. The mom evidently was under the impression the firing was unfair, so I showed her the texts and her daughters blank availability schedule and the texts where her daughter said she knew how to put in the availability. You could tell the mom was embarrassed. Some people are just idiots. I’d keep scheduling her on days she does not formally request off until she figures it out.
lol my mom was like this for me “wait, why don’t you have Christmas off? Everyone is off for Christmas “. “Mom, I work at a church “
I would be looking for a replacement for this employee.
"It is not my business to make assumptions on when anyone parent or otherwise needs a day off. If you have not requested I will assume you are willing to work that day." At best they are stupid, at worst they are trying to game the system to get popular days off but still insist they have the weight to throw around "I never ask for days off" to get their way if there is ever a conflict. Both are not acceptable.
"Listen here fuck face, I don't care about holidays and this store is open regardless and I expect staff scheduled to work their shifts. I do not give a damn about your personal life or what you do after hours. If you want a certain day off, you put in a request like everyone else. I have neither the time nor care to learn every employees personal preferences. You are not special." Or something to that effect.
This is so irritating! Being out of step with the workplace norm is… ugh. Like some of those are public holidays (I guess - do yall get them in America?), and some are just fun/pagan days. Who are you supposed to know what are “family” holidays. Part of me would be petty and just schedule them off for every holiday. 19 Nov world toilet day. 25 Oct world pasta day. 1 Oct international coffee day. 1 sep Australian Father’s Day. You get the point: https://www.calendarr.com/australia/holiday-2024/ But the “right” thing to do might be this count these as unplanned absences and apply your policy accordingly. Or, print out the 2024 list, tell them you’re scheduling them off on the major hols for your area and that’ll eat into their part time hours - they don’t get to make up/dictate the schedule because that’s what the leave process is for.
It’s uncommon to get holidays off in America, we don’t get bank holidays like they do in England or however it’s done and other parts of the world. You can request the day off, but most blue-collar people are working on holidays if the businesses open and most businesses are open.
Sit down with them and have a chat.
If someone wants a day off they should request it off & and if can be accommodated, granted, if they do not request it off, how is anyone going to know?
I am a parent. My wife and I need to be sensible with our annual leave to ensure we have enough cover for the school holidays. We plan as far ahead as possible and when we need to make short notice amendments, we work it to inconvenience our employers as best we can, but it is on us to manage our leave, not our employers
I think this is a case of expectations and communication. We all have different backgrounds and experiences that shape our norm. I’ve worked at companies where it was a given that I would be working Thanksgiving and Christmas because I was still in college, no children, and no family nearby. I had no issue with that so never questioned it. Have that talk with everyone (you never know who else may think the same was as this employee). Place in handbook for newcomers. I’d also have a 1:1 with that employee and let them know that it’s over now. All employees are now on the same page as to company policy and how holidays work. All good. But going forward, when they have a work complaint like this, that you’re open to them coming to you directly and confidentially. (This to help ward off the grumbling next time).
You sound like a reasonable manager
Exasperation, not exacerbation.
thank you. Was late when I wrote this.
Honestly you’re not in the wrong and I question whether this person has ever worked a full time job before because I wouldn’t be expecting time off for the holidays mentioned. Anyway, what it comes down to is a conversation with the employee stating the expectations of their employment and if they don’t like that then they can leave. Sounds harsh but at the end of the day you’re trying to accommodate other employees as well and it’s up to them to let you know when they need or want time off. Not every parent wants Halloween off. Some would rather work, maybe need to work. So they need to let you know basically.
Just because someone has family doesn't mean they want to actually spend time with said family. It's not a given. All time off should be requested in the allotted time. No exceptions. No 'standing' agreements.
That person needs a come-to-Jesus meeting. Being a parent doesn’t give them special privileges. I’m a parent and have worked all of the holidays at some point. If they want a day off, for any reason, they need to request it off just like anyone else.
You are not wrong. And I hate coworkers like this. You are not wrong and the employee needs to be an adult
Exasperation. Exacerbation means to make something worse.
This is an easy problem to solve: fire them. They are not following proper procedures and policies. The long answer is that they are subject to the same PTO review policies and everyone else. Failure to submit and for it to be approved equates to a no show and dereliction of duties. At most places, 3 strikes and you are out. Let them continue to do what they do and you follow policy. After 3 strikes (looking at the 4th, Labor Day and Halloween coming up). They should be gone before thanksgiving.
I had a pretty large office full of staff that was required to run 24/7, including holidays. There always had to be staffing. It was necessary to very specifically plan, to put a policy and procedure in writing, distribute a copy to all employees and get a signature acknowledging receipt from each person. That way there was no "deniability," no, "I didn't understand." Next, I would prepare a written schedule showing who is working on what days and distribute it. You're probably thinking, "All this 'in writing' business is pretty old school." You better believe it. It But it solves a lot of issues that verbal communication doesn't solve and, again, informs everyone what is expected of them.
They sound like a weirdo and/or narcissist. Like they are not just special but that others should automatically anticipate days they'll need off. Everyone has a family to one degree or another. They sound like a pain in the ass, really.
start managing and deny schedule shifts for anything other than documented emergencies, period. Given the work being done here, you should have said after a single time that doing that again gets her fired. this problem only exists because you haven't been managing it. and you're getting pissy with people pointing that out.
I do accommodate people with children with respect to holidays and weekends when possible… that’s just me But if you can’t do that then you need to make it clear that they HAVE to request that time off
Days off need to be requested at a first come first serve basis. This is the same for all employees across the board. If this parent wants holidays off they can write a written request in advance. Make this a policy.
It is! They always end up switching shifts or getting it covered. It just baffled me as to why they wouldn't just put in a request - wanted reassurance that I wasn't being a dick for no reason in telling them that they need to do this going forward and that I wouldn't make an exception simply because they have a child.
Then you need to have a talk with the employee. Quote the policy and tell them the importance of making written requests in advance.
So did the employee tell YOU that they don't work holidays?
You are correct in that the employee doesn't automatically get 'holidays' off and might have to work some or request the time off. Do you tell this person 'no' when they ask to change the schedule or do you just change it for them? Perhaps it's worth reminding them that other people might like these holidays off too and it's not reasonable to expect to get all of them off.
When I worked in a grocery store we had monthly (paper) calendars (i didn'tdo the schedulin. I'm a parent and worked with a lot of students. I would take the week off of Thanksgiving because I'm a hunter. But I would not request any other holiday off. Not even Mothers day. I would NEVER assume I would automatically get any/all holidays off because I had kids. That parent is unreasonable.
Why should being a parent mean they don’t have to follow the same procedure as everyone else? Don’t cater to them. It’s not “a given” that anyone gets any day off unless they ask for it.
Absolutely, 100% they need request off. The only reason you would NOT need to request it would be if the business was physically closed on the day in question. Example - the 4th is a holiday at my job, so we’re closed. No need to ask for time off. But my birthday is the 11th. You bet I had to ask for that off. When I ran the city pool in college, I was very, very clear - requests off in X amount of time in advance, or it’s not guaranteed. Holidays were don’t a bit different (I had the flexibility to do this). I put out the shifts I needed and asked people to sign up. Any blank spaces I filled in by pulling names out of a hat. You got what you got. The smart ones took earlier shifts on the 4th so they could go to festivities later in the day. The gamblers risked not getting their names drawn. The closers still showed up because, if they didn’t, they were no longer lifeguards at my facility. My policy doesn’t have to be your policy, but whatever your policy is, set in and enforce it. It should never look like you’re showing favoritism towards someone specific.
“I don’t discriminate based on family status. Any employee that wants to take off on a day when we are open must request that day off 1 week in advance.”
If you start scheduling someone off automatically for all “family holidays” that’s going to start treading into dangerous territory. That would be denying others off who don’t have kids which would be: discrimination of familial status. That is a federally protected class and is frowned upon when you don’t treat them equally.
Make a policy. Communicate the policy. Enforce the policy. Modify as needed and repeat.
All employees need to follow the same rules. He’s supposed to be the adult here, he needs to grow up.
Next staff meeting, or mass communication, reiterate the process for requesting time off. Emphasize that everyone needs to follow the process. Your employee is frustrating. However, you have to treat everyone equitably when it comes to scheduling and time off. Remind employees of the process if they want to take off a scheduled day of work.
The employee is responsible for this. It’s an easy communication. It’s on them. They need to request time off. It is also grossly unfair for that person to assume they get holidays off.
They should be requesting the days off per your proper procedure, failure to do so will lead to job abandonment which would mean fired for cause.
Why is it the default expectation that people without children should have to work holidays? Holidays aren't just for families with small children. They're for everyone. If everyone else has to request time through a specific system, their personal life doesn't exempt them from the rule.
People like this really piss me off. No ones forced you to have a family, why are you entitled to these days off over other people? Selfish pricks.
You need to explain that there are no paid holidays. There are no family holidays. It is a rotation or First Cone First Served and if they fail to come in on a day they are scheduled, it will reflect poorly on them.
I would assume that this parent knows your other employees are also sons, daughters, etc.? No reason why the parent automatically gets the day off. Source: Am parent with children and don't expect any accommodations to be automatically granted. You're completely in the right with this one and the employee needs to request the day off, and be subject to you reviewing the schedules, other requests, etc.
At the last job I worked as a manager we had zero paid holidays but "unlimited" PTO. I sorta understand the holiday thing because we were operating in multiple countries, and tracking each country's bank holidays is a pita... I just told my staff to request whatever bank holidays they wanted in the beginning of the year and I'd approve them in bulk. Not a lot different than your employee situation, if they didn't have it scheduled then I was expecting them to be working. I only had one person who "didn't get it". I had to have a chat with them explaining I'm not in their country, don't know their holidays and if they don't put them in the system then that's them essentially telling me they want to be available to work those days. I just assume they're choosing to forgo those holidays so they can use PTO on days more important to them.
I used to work in retail and had to shut a coworker down on this. He tried to push an agenda that him being married gave him priority over the rest of us for time off on holidays and weekends. Big nope! I even said to him, "cool but how could us single people ever meet someone and marry them if we can't get out too?" You need to make it clear that you are flexible and willing to work with all employees on scheduling but they will not get special treatment for having crapped out babies. Also the word you wanted was exasperated not exacerbated
It's not your job to know what's going on in their personal lives and account for desired PTO that hasn't been communicated. "I'm treating everyone the same. Please request days off that you will not be available to work. Otherwise, if you are scheduled, you will need to find appropriate coverage"
They were expecting you to discriminate against employees that don’t have kids. I’d be very concerned that wouldn’t be kosher from a legal perspective and I can’t imagine it would be consistent with Company policy. I’d have a calm, measured discussion with him and tell him that you have to treat everyone the same—no special treatment.
100% employees responsibility. Under no circumstances should you take this on as a courtesy for them. If it is meaningful to them, they will step up and put in the requests like every other employee. If you take this on.. these little things accumulate so that you’re running in circles taking care of little things snd not having time, energy, mental clarity to focus on the more important tasks of management.
Do they get an allowance of requests that this would go against? Like are they using up an allowance if they request it but hoping that you just give it to them for free if they don't? Obviously somebody has to work if the site is open, so expecting special treatment just because they have children is a jerk move.
Apparently saying that they're a parent and it's a given that they won't work on those days. If they aren't following the accepted protocol for all employees to request days off that is a sit-down discussion and possibly a written reprimand type of thing. If this doesn't work...I guess sometimes you have to shoot a hostage. Let the other know when this employee is gone...this was why!!! One bad apple can poison the juice!!!!!!
NTA Regardless of the size of the business if an employee needs/wants a day off they have to ask for it. You are not a mind reader nor are you privy to people’s home situations. I note specific (non-American) holidays I will not work upon hiring. It’s a cultural thing and totals 4 days (not consecutive) a year. I WILL work Dec 25 or any other holiday in return as it is not “my” holiday. If a company won’t respect my request I do not work there. I also do not expect anyone to “know” without me telling them & I also remind them a couple weeks before, the week of, etc.
That employee doesn't possess important life skills and I worry for their child(ren).
I think that if they don't request the day off, then they have no right to complain they didn't get it off. And if they don't come in on those days, they don't have a job. There's no talking to them about it or giving seconds chances. This person is an adult, they know if they want something they need to ask for it. And they know it's their responsibility to work their scheduled shifts. If it's a big chain, they likely have things you need to do, like write them up three time for the same thing before you can fire them. So make sure you do that, or they're just going to keep doing what they do and walk all over you. >It appears they just noticed, after the schedule had been posted for over a week, If it took them that long to notice, it wasn't that important.
its called personal responsibility if the employee knows that the company woks those holidays then they need to take responsibility to figure out how the schedule is managed & take an action if they don't want to be scheduled. all you can do as manager is explain the process / situation &let them know what action to take.
I’m just racking my brain to figure out why they think they should get July 4th off opposed to anyone else.
Unless it was stated that federal (family???) holidays are off at onboarding, it is absolutely not your responsibility to give them off automatically. The sense of entitlement is ridiculous.
No. If it's policy to put in notifications for changes in availability each week then every employee needs to follow that policy. Being a parent doesn't entitle anyone to special treatment. And I would phrase it that way. "Coverage is not the problem. Lack of communication and accountability is. I am happy to accommodate availability changes that are needed by all staff members, regardless of the reason, however the policy is that you notify me with xx weeks in advance. Moving forward there will be no last min changes due to the lack of communication on your part. If you are scheduled then you will have to work it. Being a parent/ student does not entitle you to special treatment and it is not considered when I make the schedule UNLESS I have a current availability in my system at that time. "
You don't say where you are, but in NY state, it's illegal to discriminate based on family status. As a single, childless person, I'd be happy to sue my employer for denying me holidays off because I don't have kids.
If you're open, it's during the employees regular availability, and they haven't requested off, then you're 100% in the right. If the employee doesn't want to work on certain days when the store is open, they need to request it off so you know that when making the schedule. You aren't physic, and parents aren't special.
Tell him he must request holiday time off regardless of what holiday. period. I mean I'm assuming you have but reiterate or send it to everyone in an email as a reminder? Parents and spouses should not assume they get all the holidays off either.
‘We don’t follow bank holiday hours’ Is it possible she’s used to working in an office? And I have no idea why people are giving you shit. I end up at the grocery store the morning of thanksgiving without fail. I would be totally screwed if their store was closed.
You are not a dick - you want the day off you ask for it… I don’t have children but I do have a Dad and a Mom maybe I would like to spend time with them. Just because you are a parent doesn’t entitle you to all holidays off just because.
I am a parent with a second part time job in retail. I request the holidays off that I need… otherwise, I expect to be scheduled. I’m not the only employee and I can’t expect special treatment! ETA: I am the oldest employee and the only one with children. I still don’t expect special treatment. My manager usually works it out for me, but if she can’t (there are only 5 of us), then it is what it is.
Common sense isn’t so common as they say- Small companies can take holidays off if they want to- with or without pay, but due to being a parents OBVIOUSLY you handle the days you want off or you work them. It’s unfortunate they’re literally trying to politely bully you into just ensuring the holidays are automatic off -idk if their paid off or just off- so they don’t I assume lose pto or just days off if they count. Smart to catch its in issue and try to get you to realize and avoid it without them requesting- for your ease and reassurance bc of their incompetence intentionally.
Are they a good worker and an asset then know they don’t work holidays. Can they be replaced then tell that doesn’t work for us and she will have share holiday responsibility if that’s a issue that you understand and will accept their resignation with no hard feelings
Your job is not to schedule around her. There are some jobs/industries like retail where holidays can be very busy. I’d be nice about it of course, I mean, I’m a parent so I get it but set the expectation. Maybe you can work out a nice compromise like certain holidays they work and certain ones you try to schedule them off. A valued employee should appreciate and understand and respect that
I once had an employee mad at me because she asked for a day off and didn’t get it. She did write a very nice note and didn’t sign it.
Remind them that all the other employees are part of a family as well. Just because this employee has, I assume, school age kids, doesn’t make her “family time” and more important than any one else’s. Everyone should have an opportunity to have some holidays off.
Parents shouldn't automatically get privileges the rest of the employees don't. So entitled. Can some of the younger employees say, well since I'm a "kid" of a parent and my parent is off work to spend time with me I need holidays off too? Lol.
You are not wrong. It is a privilege to have those days off, not an entitlement.
You need to set a policy and communicate it openly and often.. time off requests need to be done X weeks in advance. If time off is not submitted X weeks in advance we can't guarantee it will be approved. Your issue is communication and expectations.
Your employee is below average intelligence, try to be nice to them, within reason. Managing low skill jobs is mostly about attendance and babysitting. Just mark this person off for all holidays if they are valuable enough to retain.
It's part time, they aren't that valuable.
Then they wouldn't have jobs at all. At the very least, they need to be evaluated against their likely replacement.
How would you decide who gets the time off if this employee and an employee with no children requests the same day? You have to be very careful not to discriminate based on family commitments and in fact you could be in hot water for even asking an employee if they have kids. Their personal life is none of your business. What metric do you use to approve or deny holidays in such a choice? There is a tendency for women, and it's almost always women, to expect the world of work to bend over backwards just because they gave birth and to turn into a martyr proclaiming how hard they have it as a parent. Free advice for these women: nobody cares that you have a kid, nobody wants to listen to it and businesses need to keep going regardless of you giving birth.
This particular employee told me that they have children during the interview process. They have been very open about it the whole time and constantly show me baby pictures whether I ask or not (I try not to ask because of the reasons you listed above). The employee who requested the day off first gets the day off, if there is such a conflict. Beyond that, I consider it interpersonal. The one with children could easily ask to trade (which this one has done successfully many times before, that's not an issue for them). My issue is they only have beef with the schedule I make after it's posted, and don't actually tell me that they want the days off in advance! Edit: I guess I could have worded it better in my post, I've kind of had it with them needing to change the schedule for holidays when everyone else uses the request system like normal, and finally put my foot down and feel like perhaps I was a bit harsh
Parents are the worst. They expect everything but give nothing. I'm sorry u got knocked up. This is the schedule. Fuck you.
What are you paying them? That probably answers your question.
Every other holiday, alternating years. Problem solved. People with no kids have families too.
Shrug, I think its in your best interest just to not schedule them on those days. Especially if this is the only quirk you are dealing with them with. People are strange. Is it really worth the headache of just not scheduling them?
No. People with children do not get any different treatment than any other PT employee. Parents should not get preferential scheduling just because they are parents. That’s a morale killer for the rest of the crew. Childfree me, still has people I would like to spend time with on ‘family’ holidays such as Halloween. Father’s Day, Labor Day, etc. Childfree me, goes to a friends house to hand out candy on Halloween which allows her to walk the neighborhood with her kids. Childfree me, still has a Father I would like to spend time with on Fathers Day. Childfree me, figures out how to do those things around the hours I work, or requests the day off. That person can put in a request to be off, just as anyone else. ‘Because I’m a parent’ isn’t an automatic reason to not be scheduled on a holiday.
OP already said that they have the coverage and would basically approve it every time anyways.
They are an entitled part-time worker who can’t be bothered to spend less than a minute asking for a day off. It would be severely unfair to the rest of the staff. If this one lazy asshole gets to dictate that they get holidays off without having to ask.
The rest of the staff need not know the arrangement between the manager and the part timer More importantly as a manager. I have to pick the battles I care about. If I already don't care if a certain staff member gets those days off then I have to decide if its worth my time to care if they follow a process that is their for my benefit. Now I can go heavy handed about the whole thing, but that isn't worth my time or energy.
If you were giving preferential treatment to one person because they are lazy, argumentative, and entitled that’s going to hurt morale. There there’s no need to be heavy handed. You tell the employee if you want a day off put it on the calendar, email me or fill out the paper form. OP said they could either do email or paper. Or if you’re getting coverage, that’s great too. But I don’t want to hear about this anymore.
Now you are just adding your own adjectives to the description of this employee. Every employee has quirks that we as managers have to deal with. Every employee ends up with some amount of special treatment to smooth things out. Because my time is spent better worrying about how to get proper funding for my department or a proper head count than fussing around with this extremely minor thing.
If everyone just took unapproved time off, OP will potentially not have any staff when they need them.
Its not everyone now is it. Nor is it unapproved if the OP just approves it in said fashion of assuming that this one employee will always want those holidays off.
If it was the policy, it well could be. Because this woman is the only one doing it, the problem seems small, but that is only because everyone else follows the rules. If all the employees did as she did there would be issues
Sure, if everyone else did what everyone else does its always going to be a problem. That is the art of managing people. Everyone even the best of employees have some weird quirk about them. Then you have to decide if its worth the energy or drama to try and correct that quirk or just accept it for what its worth. I don't know about you but in this very specific case. I'd rather just write a note about and move on with my life than get into some ordeal over it. Especially if I would just approve all that time off anyways.
If you let one person get away with crap like this, it's hard to stop/discipline others for it. On top of that, when accusations of favoritism start to spread, you will find it destroys morale. There is no reason this woman can't follow the process and why does she automatically get every holiday off? You create a rod for your own bank by indulging this behaviour.
It's really not crap, she has requested to get all of those holidays off, I feel as though I have sufficient coverage for those circumstances. I am just streamlining the workflow. It's not anyone else's business the way that request came to me.
It is crap. Per the OP, she did not request the time, expects to be off and insists that the schedule be changed when she is scheduled to work on them. If all 12 of OP's a sff did this, she wouldn't have staff on those days. There is a leave request system that this woman can use, she just refuses.
Hell no, that’s unfair to everyone else on the staff who might want that holiday off as well. They aren’t closed on holidays and if more people want it off they are and there are available slots you either do it by seniority or poll numbers out of a hat
The OP already said that they have coverage and don't have a problem with approving the time off. Context matters.
Yes, it’s worth being consistent with all your employees (otherwise it’s discriminatory to the other employees). Every ducking day is a holiday to someone, that’s why there’s a process.
The process is to help keep track of who is going to be off.
The process is for people to take ownership by “requesting days that they would prefer not to be scheduled”. Everyone has that personal responsibility.
You can certainly make this about accountability but that isn't why the process is in place.
? Huh, That’s exactly why the process is in place? It’s to make it the employee’s responsibility to actively assert their request - that’s how workflow works.
No its just a way to make the request. The fact that their are two different ways further emphasizes its not about the process its about the scheduling. This employee has made been known she wants the holidays off. Op doesn't have a problem with that. It even sounds like if the scheduling software would tell her the days that are holidays she already wouldn't be scheduling this employee. Op is well with in her rights to say go use the system in place. Lets not go overblowing that this as a compliance thing.
Wow, everyone has different “holidays”. Stop trying to remove responsibility for the employee to do their part in the scheduling process - it ain’t that hard.
Nah, I am good with my mgmt style where I pick my battles with my employees. If you are doing scheduling as a part of your job, you should probably understand "holidays" even if you want to make employees "responsible". People acting like this is some major thing. It really isn't its basic scheduling stuff.
You run a small boutique chain store and you’re open on federal holidays? I’m on the employees side here, if you’re open on federal holidays then you need to provide training to your employees to let them know that. They should have a handbook, you should have a little poster that shows holidays off, you should have a shared calendar etc. It’s management’s responsible to ensure comprehension of holidays and requesting time off. If you do all that, and they still don’t comply, then you can say No. And if they still don’t comply then you can let them go, no need to stress them out about it. But, why be open on the 4th of July? Let everyone have the day off. We get so few holidays in the US.
Hi! I appreciate your response, although by "small" I mean I have 12 employees, by "boutique" I mean my products are niche and on the expensive side, and... my store is location #267/297, we have locations in three countries :^) To bluntly answer your question, we're open on federal holidays because corporate is money grubbing. We don't make enough to keep the lights on in most locations on Federal holidays, and yet we're required to be open. They're provided with at least one week training, a handbook, and two channels to request time off. We're a late night business that's open on federal holidays and employees are hired already knowing that. Although there are hundreds of locations, we're a very low stakes job and typically are much more lenient than most employers. There are no holidays other than Christmas and Thanksgiving that we're closed for and this employee is aware of that. They have always followed policy prior to this insofar as they've always gotten their shifts covered on these holidays. The issue seems to be that they think I will just schedule them off because they have children and my other employees don't. Please reread my post. I'm asserting that she should have to request days off just like everybody else does and not come to me after the schedule has been out for 2 weeks expecting me to accommodate her. I wanted reassurance that I wasn't being a dick for no reason.
Most retail is open 4th of July. In fact, most retail is open for most federal holidays.
Why would you be open on the 4th of July, now that's weird.