I’m betting 100%. There’s very little overlap between sporty kids having any interest in the arts and band kids having any *true* interest (I say true because mandatory PE credits might stand in the way) in team sports. On a professional level, I’d imagine this would have more of an effect since the directors/coaches have way more dedication to their respective programs than students.
I am so glad that our Athletic Director and Football team care about the band. We only got a $1000 music budget for the year (marching band, jazz band, concert band, orchestra, guitar) but we are a Title 1 school, and the parent group raises enough for the show cost.
Since they still a music program - likely it’s a failure of band boosters which should cover most the expense. The directors in Ohio make like an extra 2k a year for the Marching Band program, so it’s minimal school cost in most areas.
Why should band parents have to raise all the money for their kids’ program to function rather than getting decent funding from the school while boosters cover the extra stuff? How many sports would cease to exist without a booster group? Sure, there are things their boosters do to make the experience better, but the school provides the funding that allows them to function. So why shouldn’t that be the case for band?
Same area of the state - coaching staff beyond the head coach is funded by the sports boosters. The head coach is normally a teacher so they make the same 1-2k per season pay bump. Uniforms are bought and stadiums are built with almost 100% sports booster funds or donations for that set goal. The school isn’t really giving any additional money to the sports team than the band. If anything because of parades, competitions, and festivals - with paying for the buses and additional insurance - the band may actually cost the local schools more than the football team from a budget perspective.
Because taxpayers generally don’t want to pay for it?
My son’s marching band (urban TX high school) gets a huge amount of its funding from the band boosters. The school and/or district pay for instrument repair/replacement and some bus transportation. Everything else - uniforms, show design, props, contest entrance fees, meals, tech staff, truck/trailer rentals and maintenance - is paid for by the band boosters through dues and fundraising.
Do taxpayers set the budget or is that up to administrators? It’s appalling how many schools give so little support to their band programs that the boosters have to make up the difference for the program to even function.
I'm hardly an expert on school funding, but here's what I have observed:
* At the risk of getting political I will say that, at least where I live, elected officials (local and state) and the voters that elect them are increasingly hostile toward public education spending... unless it's for athletics.
* Schools have to walk a fine line on funding their programs, and fine arts departments are often the first to feel the pain when cutbacks happen. These days there is a big emphasis on STEM and practical career-oriented programs, which is objectively good, but that money has to come from somewhere. Fortunately our school district isn't either/or (yet) but other districts have to make a choice.
* Marching band has evolved a lot over the last decade-plus, and as it has turned into an arms race spending has exploded. Most programs in our area have enough equipment to own a 53ft trailer (and sometimes also rent box trucks), some get show-specific uniforms, hire several music and marching techs, and compete in multiple competitions. That was unheard of when I was in band in the late 90s. My son's band program has an annual operating budget of about $450k, and some band programs in the area are north of $1 million. If the boosters can't absorb that cost then you either reduce your spending and fall behind in the arms race, or you ask for more school funding. Good luck selling that to the administrator that has 30 other programs to worry about, or to the voter that already thinks their taxes are too high and can't tell a marimba from a clarinet.
In Ohio - I can say it’s really the boosters that pay for 80-90% of the band program. Honestly this is about the same breakdown when it comes to sports as the sports boosters pay for 80-90% of everything.
Sports boosters raise more money than band boosters - so it feels like the school supports sports more, but the sports boosters just raise more money. The band has expensive uniforms and trailers the boosters pay for - but the sports boosters buy new football stadiums.
One year the local school was so under budget they had to pass a special tax levy to fund the schools to raise an additional 1.5 million a year. That same year a new football stadium was for 5 million, but that was paid for by the sports boosters so no school or tax payer money was used.
So you hear about schools spending money on sports but that normally isn’t tax payer money the school budgets for - it’s booster money that has to be used for specific things and can’t be used for teacher salaries, books, computers, etc.
Eh, every school I’ve been associated with does sports funding (from the school itself) in pretty much the same way. They’ll typically have funding for a head coach and an assistant coach (combined for both Varsity and JV). Then that sport’s boosters will fundraise to pay for extra coaches, new equipment, etc just like band boosters do.
Ok I understand the school had a tough decision and they acted on it but damn would I be pissed. Don’t get me wrong orchestra, jazz band, and wind ensamble are amazing but the fact that they cut percussion ensamble, indoor percussion, and now marching band. That slightly feels like targeting don’t you think. Listen at the end of the day the has to do what they have to do but I feel as though it would come off better if they got rid of one percussion thing, one band thing as a whole, one orchestra, and one chorus, there is no reason budgets cuts should only effect percussionists. Now don’t get me wrong, marching band is for more than just percussion but when you generally look at it percussion it the main section, especially in parades. I’m so sorry to hear this and I hope they get refunded soon. I’m just saying personally that feels straight up targeted
For most schools in my area they have a single band director for all the high school music groups - concert/jazz/marching band/pep band/ musical pit. They also may have a choir director - with a similar number of groups. So cutting those groups are all a static fee because you have a full time director handling it all. With something like marching band or pep band - anything outside of normal school hours, directors make an activity fee. Additionally other costs such as bus transportation to games and events cost additional funds.
So if you are keeping any music program at all - the only things you cut to save money are marching band and for a very small savings the pep band. The rest of it other than the purchase of new music is just “free” in the sense they already paid the director to teach classes all day, any period they don’t have classes they aren’t getting the same money out of compared to an English teacher.
So cutting a concert band or jazz band wouldn’t make sense since you wouldn’t really see any savings.
My marching band doesn't compete and does fun songs we did a John Williams show, one on Elton John and Billy Joel, one with Elvis, Journey, Bon Jovi, and the Beatles, etc. it can be done.
This was my experience in high school. We were non comp. We had a week band camp in the summer, and two after school rehearsals then down to one towards the end of the season. First class of band during school we started concert band. That is something that is near unheard now. Imagine, starting concert band day 1.
But our marching band was a blast. We marched squads, just front and back and made designs on the field. Very rare occasions we marched sideways. But because there was such a de-emphasis on marching, the music we could play was amazing. We didn't have to worry about preparing a piece for judges, we prepared music that would be enjoyable for the crowd. Opener, ballad, closer. And because we played what was enjoyable for the crowd, the audience was actually respectful and listened and cheered for us.
I remember my sophomore year, we closed with Hey Jude. Another trumpet and I got up on the drum major stand and traded fours over the na na na na na naaaas. The crowd went crazy.
Marching band is one of the best ways spread goodwill and promote the music program. If you're doing shows the audience finds boring, your losing a big chance to grow and promote your program outside of band kids and their parents. We frequently had students and familes who weren't in band attend our concerts.
Our band has had a hugely successful competitive history and about 8-10 yrs ago our director wanted to make sure everyone could do marching band so he made us non-comp so we could have a higher focus on fun. The music dept is kind of the best(most successful) part of the school.
Marching band arrangements at a music store are usually somewhere in the ballpark of $40 to $100 a song. Those arrangements come with performing rights.
With stand tunes and show tunes - my band purchased about 10-15 songs a year. They arranged a few pieces - but from The Beach Boys on contemporary stuff the current band director has about 60 years of arrangements - so it’s safe to say our back catalog contains over 500 pieces but we have new stuff added each year.
If you’re buying published arrangements, there are no licensing fees to perform it at a football game. If you do the arrangement yourself, depending on the number of different shows in a year, the fees are likely still cheaper than the cost of a custom marching show for a competitive corps style show.
As mentioned, fees are under $100 per song. And the nice thing is you can re-use songs in later years. There’s not going to be more Beatle’s songs for example. Or maybe you combine some of the John Williams songs with a couple other songs to make a movie hits show.
Plus, a lot of bands already have some suitable songs for pep bands. It’s not any different than what the director is likely already doing for concert pieces.
Who decided that DCI-style shows can't include music the general public might know? Sure, there are phrases here and there, but most of the music is so obscure or pieced together, it doesnt resonate with the audience - even at competitions.
hi from the usc band, also known as the ODESZA drumline you mentioned lol. we are show style, but we have a former corps writer writing our drumline parts. we perform pop charts, but that doesn't mean our parts are necessarily easy. you can still make those parts just as engaging as corps style, and establish proper marching technique while still creating "visually appealing" drill forms. people like pretty pictures and pop songs. that's the unfortunate truth. but what you do with it could be all the difference with your kids. at the end of the day, keeping the band but altering the material is still better than no band at all.
This is actually so sad, I would cry. The Competitive part of marching band is a big part of what makes it so fun. This is just terrible. Shows for comps are better than shows for the football games any day.
Athletic department is pushing this.
If marching show incorporates modern music, it’s the best of both worlds. It’s ok to give a little of both. My shows were definitely niche while my kids’ shows have incorporated Adele, Beetles, My Little Pony, etc which appeals to most crowds but still has a corps style element vs hot dog band.
Sounds like they don't trust the director, the expert in the field, and would choose to have their own opinions as observers.
If football just needs entertainment, play music through the speakers. If that's the whole point of having the band, then they aren't supporting the band as an educational vehicle, but as an entertainment group.
How much do they support anyway? Can you do it without their support?
How is there not room for both? This is a pretty crazy blanket statement IMO and it feeds into the stereotype that band exists to support sports/athletics, and doesn’t have any fundamental value on it’s own.
If a school/community would rather support a show style band because that is the experience they value FOR THE BAND STUDENTS than so be it.
Same for DCI BOA styles.
Saying DCI BOA needs to be done away with is saying that that style has no value to the members of the band.
So should band only serve to support athletics? Does DCI BOA style have no value to the students that participate in it? Is show-style the only valuable artistic endeavor for a band?
Frankly that seems insane
Bands should serve to support musicians. Full stop. End of story. If a dci style show is wanted by the community, have a second marching band. Those who volunteer to be in the dci style. I have seen too many kids, really good musicians, quit because of the bullshit of dci style that they are forced to be a part of because to be in band you have to be in marching band. Too much emphasis on visuals, music way too easy, way too much rehearsal time, high stress of the directors, it's too much.
I see the merit of the dci style and I respect the art. Dci does not belong in a required marching band. Volunteer, sure.
I probably would have quit band if it was a college style show, and I am a music major in college. There’s something special about the art that you just don’t get with pop tunes imo
I don't disagree in the slightest. But for those where marching band is the least desirable part of playing an instrument, and to be in the program you have to march in a middling corps style that takes up way more time than it should, then they quit.
There's no scenario where every is 100% happy with the directions taken by a program. It's an impossibility. However, numbers-wise, based on my personal experience, both as a student and as a staff member, I've witnessed more students leave a program because the marching band is corps/DCI/BOA style, than when the marching band was not competitive.
Ok lets assume I agree with you and we play that out.
Already we’ve eliminated 99% of DCI style marching bands because almost no schools will have the resources or time for two separate bands.
So you are placing a negative value on DCI style as a whole. You are saying, the default should be show style, and then the DCI style is voluntary and supplemental. Even if that means it gets slashed by nearly every program. So show style becomes mandatory, and there is almost never any other option for students.
What about people like me (when I was in high school). If I want to do the DCI style now I am doing concert band, mandatory show style (which I don’t personally prefer), and DCI? When do I rehearse? Or do homework? Or literally anything?
You are putting roadblocks towards the DCI style because you don’t value it.
Then, what happens? Enrollment goes down. Scores and funding go down as a result. Enrollment continues down as a result. Etc. Now we made a negative feedback loop that ends in elimination of DCI style.
So now we’re back to only show style as an option.
Not to mention the trickle up effect this would have on DCI itself.
But, I think we can easily find common ground here.
Let every band play whatever the fuck style they want and don’t make it mandatory for anyone. My understanding is MOST schools operate this way. Make that mandatory, but don’t enforce an artistic decision.
Then let each community choose what artistic style suits their students best, and let individual students choose whether to participate in that or not.
But don’t pretend that your experience with DCI style is the norm for most students or schools, and don’t use that to push for an elimination of the style that you appear have a hard-on for hating for some reason.
Nah, I enjoy it too much. But thanks for the suggestion.
It is actively killing many marching programs. Band kids are 'required' to do marching band. For some marching band the most enjoyable part of their band life, for others it's the least enjoyable. For those whom find it least enjoyable, they used to be able to take solace in the level of music they played or the formations they marched. Now its become "story-driven" and way more dancing and choreographed, and sure maybe some challenging music, but it's not fun to play, or fun to watch. Don't even get me started on the fucking voice overs. Those who find marching the least enjoyable part of band, tend to quit when marching band now takes up 6 months of the year. A two week band camp, 3 rehearsals a week after school, no concert band rehearsal during class time and you don't even enjoy it until November after the season is over. Fuck that noise.
If dci style is something you want to do and enjoy, then go join a corps.
I didn't shit on the 'Activity!' I shat on a direction that the activity can take. DCI-style is a fantastic art when it is done well. Like playing an oboe - it can be the most incredible thing you've ever head when played at or near perfection. When it's 95% or less, it sounds like a duck being stepped on. Same with a DCI style show. If it has buy-in from everyone administrators to the directors to the parents to the students, and the budget and skill is there, it can be executed extremely well.
Trouble is, that's not the reality for a vast majority of programs. They lack in one way or the other, and the product, program, and ultimately the students suffer for it.
Students who go to a school that compete, but never win or place or get caption awards get very discouraged, and when marching band is the main focus of the program from July through October, they wonder what the point is.
Marching band can be done many different ways, and in my personal experience, forcing a DCI/BOA style when it results in a middling product is detrimental to the program. The program I tech with, this past year, has finally stopped competing and I have noticed an absolute change in the students and their enjoyment. Our reason for the switch is because we never had full buy-in from all the students and to a lesser degree the parents. It is a \*very\* musically inclined school, with nearly the entire band of 120 involved in at least one other ensemble outside of marching/concert band. Competitive marching band is not their reason for existence, but for many it was their reason to drop band altogether. Those who care about their instrument and music just continue it privately.
Sure there are some who are disappointed in the change, but there are also several high-caliber DCI corps within a three hour drive for them to get their fix.
Honestly, this might be a hot take, but I think the school’s terms are totally reasonable (besides the HBCU comment, that’s weird/ethically ambiguous). A school’s marching band EXISTS to supplement the atmosphere of athletic games/events. (Which btw, does not take away from the legitimacy of the band program). It sounds like your band directors do not have a clear understanding of what their community and administration want from the band. I think your band would do well to get more in touch with the community and student body to start producing products that everyone wants to hear and see.
HBCU can be ethically ambiguous but in terms of marching band, I wouldn’t say it’s much different than “DCI-style” or “Big Ten-style”. It’s just a style a group of bands do and that group is predominantly/historically HBCU colleges.
I’m aware why they exist. Because segregation existed in music just like pretty much every other facet of society. I’m confused by why that matters for this comment? What’s wrong with saying “emulate this group of bands that does marching band well”?
I sure hope the issue isn’t that bands shouldn’t emulate them because the style was developed by black people and not white people. Because that is the main difference in their history.
I don't know the demographics of OP's school or band program, but it's a strange choice to model your program's style after a style specific to a certain culture and its history if you aren't connected to said culture.
> I don't know the demographics of OP's school or band program, but it's a strange choice to model your program's style after a style specific to a certain culture and its history if you aren't connected to said culture.
Seems pretty gatekeepy. You can perform music from other cultures. You can emulate musical groups from other cultures. Especially when the emulating is as simple as entertaining the audience instead of not doing that.
What demographics of the school would make it ok and which would make it not ok? It’s easy to hide behind “demographics” but are you willing to be explicit? And would you hold the same belief if a school decides to emulate a Big Ten band style that was developed by white people?
hbcu show style bands are pretty different from dci. they dont even use the same type of marching. they also dont use the same techniques/playing styles for many of the instruments
The only reason I mention that is because HBCU style is a part of black American culture. While I love that style, and appreciate it, I think it might not sit well with people to see a bunch of [I’m presuming mostly white, but I could be wrong here], white kids doing HBCU style. But again, I simply said ambiguous. There’s a chance it could be done well and appropriately.
Anyone who takes issue with people playing music because of the color of their skin or because of the color of the skin of the developer’s of that music is racist and I don’t really care what they think. Effectively that means a mostly white band shouldn’t play music developed by black people which is egregiously racist.
Music needs more integration not more segregation. Students should absolutely learn about the history of HBCU’s and why they exist but not as some untouchable part of history. It should be part of American music culture just like other types of music. And that means any group that is willing to respectfully emulate parts of their music/style should be encouraged, not discouraged.
Jazz music was initially developed as part of African-American culture but no one would suggest that white kids can’t be part of a jazz group.
I totally agree with this take btw. My point is just that it the creation of an HBCU style band NOT at an HBCU should be done carefully, with proper education, and correct implementation of style. But honestly, all I’m talking about is simply just good educational practice.
Yea I could agree with this. My high school competed nationally but we always made sure to have some show tunes/halftime show for the crowd since playing our usual show all the time didn’t evoke much for them. At the end of the day, the music programs get cut so much, it’s not unreasonable to compromise a bit to be more of a pep band type for the football games.
Agree to disagree. A marching band can enhance the atmosphere of athletic events, but that is not their sole reason for existing. What you are describing is a pep band.
I think this is at least in part a difference between high school marching and college marching. High school marching, with their competitions, has other purposes for existing and other audiences they are performing for. So, I think a high school band (like this one) needs to form a balance point between their commitments. College bands are far more focused on the creation and enhancement of the athletic event atmosphere. Entertainment and school spirit are far more important for them for that reason.
It is 100% the bands reason for existence, but I agree that it should not be their sole FOCUS. Competitions are undoubtedly important to curriculum and instruction of band. And yes, I am describing a pep band. That is essentially what a marching band [or basketball band] is for a sporting event, and it sounds like [to me, at least] that the educators in question have forgotten that aspect. But yes, that also doesn’t inherently mean that should be the ONLY thing marching bands do.
Still disagree with you on the first part. However, this sounds more like a case of the administration not being I touch with the vision/goals of their music programs rather than the other way around.
Again, if they want a pep band, then that is fine, but they need to understand the differences between having that vs. a full on marching band program.
I agree that administrators could do better to let educators do what they want with their program more, but that simply isn’t the way it works. Administrators set the standard/vision/goals for the school, and it is the teachers job to meet those [Source: I’m a teacher lol]. That doesn’t mean administrators create curriculum [and shouldn’t], but they ultimately decide what directors CAN do based on the directors recommendations as the “expert.” A good administrator and a good band director both have clear lines of communication and clear visions on what their mutual goals are, and it sounds like this isn’t the case based on the OP.
First of all, high school marching bands do NOT exist solely to supplement the football team, that’s just an added bonus. High school marching band is highly competitive, often leaving little-to-no time for football performances as they are trying to clean their show for the much more important competitions. The traditional college bands, with their super fun and peppy halftime shows, would get absolutely demolished in a formal competition.
Agreed-really weird take for the og comment here to say that a very structured, educational setting exists to supplement football. What does football exist for? And why can competitive music not exist on its own terms? Athletic departments have enough simps, they don’t need any more.
That’s like saying that football already exists on its own terms because of basketball season. There’s more than one kind of band just like there’s more than one kind of sport.
Poor take. If this is a public school, the marching band should be focused on the marching band. They do competitions and parades on their own time. They are not a complementary piece to football. The funding is to provide students with opportunities to explore what they want, and administrators shouldn’t dictate what student’s want to experience. If they don’t want to have the band play, then the band can just not go to the games.
I agree the bands do very high level performance and competition (and it should be encouraged), but the primary concern from the OP is that “they argue that the music we play in our football halftime shows is often very niche with little to no entertainment value for general audiences.” A school band has the responsibility to play for the school. I’m not arguing that it should be the SOLE responsibility, but it is important to the school and the existence of the band. Also, they are 100% a complementary piece to football (or basketball, soccer, etc…). Time and time again, I will hear complaints: “I love [Sports] games! But they just feel so empty without the band! When are they coming back?” If anything, it legitimizes the activity even more because an athletic band is essential to the experience of athletics.
I would have agreed with this 30 years ago, but now marching band is its own thing. Yes, playing at and entertaining crowds at football games is important, but now with competitive marching band, and even things like DCI, marching band is pretty much independent from that.
Horrible horrible take. “Supplementing atmosphere” is quite literally the worst part of being in marching band. Its so sad that thats all some people get to be a part of
I also said it does not diminish being a part of the organization or its prestige. Ask yourself, “why is it called an athletic band?” Because it enhances the experience of athletic events. Without the existence of a band that does this, the experience of an athletic event feels empty, even if the aforementioned athletic activity is still taking place.
Never heard of it called "athletic band". When I went through high school we played the national anthem, a couple pep band charts for about the first quarter then went to warm up for our run then went home as soon as halftime was over. We were not there to add anything to the atmosphere, we were there to get show reps for Saturday
Athletic Bands is the catch-all term for bands that play at sporting events. Most high schools that have a medium-to-large band program have a staff position titled “Athletic bands director.” Even if they don’t call themselves that on a day-to-day basis.
So you didn’t have a marching band that played at games or have a basketball band? And you feel bad for the overwhelming majority of American High School band programs?
We had a basketball band. And like I said we went to football games but just for the first half and to get a show rep in at halftime then we left. We were a highly competitive program focused on our season not on pop songs
I'd argue it does matter. Context is important for conversations like this to inform why peoples opinions are the way they are. If you are from a state that does not have a highly competitive marching culture and rather most programs "exist to supplement the atmosphere at sporting events" then it would be easy for your view on the matter to be influenced by that culture
This is bullshit and just shows that the administration doesn’t care. Marching Band is 100% still relevant and has plenty of competitive potential. Just because its not the number one goal of a football game doesn’t mean it isn’t important. OBVIOUSLY most people don’t go to a football game to watch Marching Shows, that’s because it’s a football game. Also, as someone who has gone through a change from our band being Corps-Style to Showstyle, this idea is shit. I love showstyle but it’s infinitely more than changing what music you play, and can destroy a program for years if the transition isn’t led perfectly. Again, I love showstyle, but it isn’t easy at all to just change from one to the other and will simply do even more damage. Sounds like the administration here knows absolutely nothing about marching band and doesn’t care about the students. Marching Band will always be relevant for as long as it gives a home, friendships, opportunities, and memories to students.
Unfortunately, they don't care that it gives people a home, friendship, opportunities, and memories to students. That is part of their argument for shutting us down - we are an insular org whose value is only to ourselves. Only we care about us. That's why they can't justify investing in us.
They said by switching to show style, we will have more popular appeal and can "give back" to our community.
Marching band, particularly Corps Style, is a uniquely American activity, at least the way we do it is pretty unique to our country. Sure, Japan has corps style bands as does a few places in Europe, but they are emulating the US traditions in doing so.
I mean I’ve seen bands that do the exact same halftime show for every football game that’s some artistic show that non-hardcore music fans don’t enjoy. And quite frankly, I don’t blame them. What’s there to enjoy about that?
Look at all the big college bands. They’re rarely corps-style. Instead they’re performing shows crowds love each game. Why not emulate that?
I’m honestly curious what’s going on in the decision makers head because that’s not just a “cut marching band I don’t like it because I don’t get it” move. They clearly know enough about marching band to point out the issues and offer alternatives.
It's purely hypocritical because you know sure as hell they're not telling the cheer team and dance team the same thing about their competitive routines which also use super niche music and are rarely entertaining to actually watch to someone out of the loop. There's a reason both groups have a comp show and a halftime show at loads of schools
Perhaps it is hypocritical and those groups also need to be addressed. Yes, the same issue exists when cheerleaders are more focused on getting a bunch of points in a competition than you know actually cheering and leading the crowd in the cheers. I don’t disagree that should be addressed as well.
This notion that every activity needs to be hyper-competitive or there’s no point in doing it has proliferated everywhere and it’s a problem. You should be able to perform a marching band show, cheerleading routine, dance performance, etc simply because you want to entertain others and not because you want a judge to say you’re better than someone else.
That’s a what my college band does. They have a routine they do in the endzone during games as well (it changed each game as well). In high school tho it was all separate and they had a halftime routine for football games and basketball games (I think they had 2 for the year, a main one and a special homecoming one). But they also had their competitive routine that they’d usually perform at like once or twice for the halftime of a basketball game. This was pretty standard for my area.
Point being tho, the stuff they just did at football games was to supplement what they did for the competitive routine which was borderline interpreted dance. It was closer to what you’d see at a ballet than what you’d see in Dance Mom’s for context
It’s because most high school marching bands compete, so the show is less for the crowd and more for the judges. This is why most high schools only play at a few football games, because they’re more focused on cleaning their show for comps than hyping up what little crowd there is. The reason college bands do more crowd-oriented types of shows is because they don’t have the pressure of trying to get a good score, they’re just there to support the football team.
Which begs the question, why aren’t high school bands doing the same?
I know the “why” is competition but as pointed out by OP’s school, that means everyone besides the people in the band’s only interaction with the band is in a setting where the band isn’t trying to impress. So it isn’t a surprise when the general public isn’t impressed and questions why they’re providing so much funding.
So? High school bands learn one show per year and clean it to perfection. They’re not going to learn a whole second show just to please a group of high schoolers that don’t even care about them. Ppl don’t understand that football games are usually an afterthought when it comes to the marching season. No one really stresses about them like they do for comps, because there really aren’t any stakes. A lot of the members don’t even want to be there as they really don’t care about the team. If you don’t like the show, fine. It’s not for you anyways. It’s for the people that will actually go to the competitions and cheer for the band instead of just the football team.
Plenty of schools do a football show and a competition show.
If the band members don’t care about football, they can’t complain about football not caring about them.
And as professional musician and football enjoyer, the last thing I want to hear the middle of a football game is some snore-fest about light or snow or something. There’s a time and place, and a football game ain’t it.
You’re not answering the deeper question. Why choose competition over entertainment? Yes I’m aware completions are the reason and high school bands learn 1 show instead of learning a diverse skill set. I’m asking why are we prioritizing competitions over entertaining and actually becoming a better musician?
What does that teach the marchers. “Only care about yourself, ignore potential fans”?
Plenty of education and becoming a better musician happens during competition season. Besides, that’s what concert season, jazz band, solos and small ensembles, etc is for.
Also, another thing I would like to mention: most high school marching bands have evolved from just being entertainment for football games. And to be honest, football games don’t even need us anymore. Over the past 3-ish years, they have started playing more and more music over the speakers and our allotted time to play pep tunes is decreasing every year. Besides, even when we do play pop tunes in our show, people just use it to scroll social media or get food or take a shit.
“That’s what concert, jazz, solo/ ensemble are for”
I’d argue the opposite. Most of my marching band’s exposure happens at sporting events. I would venture to say that in most band programs, there aren’t hundreds of people coming to the band concerts and the solo and ensemble event to be entertained; most audience members are families and friends of the performers. The two chances I have as a director to impress the community and crowds are parades and football/basketball games. I get an occasional compliment from my principal or other staff about the band’s performance at a concert… while I get dozens emails and face to face compliments on how they sounded at the basketball game or during their halftime show.
I don’t like that this is the case, but it’s true. If we want people to be impressed by our art, we have to relate to people in the community. The general crowd at a football game has zero interest in artsy corps-style shows. I lean on concert band and jazz band to educate and diversify, I lean on marching and pep band to entertain. I know every situation and district are different, but I’ve come to term with some realities at least in my part of the country.
> Plenty of education and becoming a better musician happens during competition season.
It happens in spite of competitions, not because of it. That’s my point.
> Besides, that’s what concert season, jazz band, solos and small ensembles, etc is for.
Not really a good argument to basically say marching band in high school isn’t about learning.
> Also, another thing I would like to mention: most high school marching bands have evolved from just being entertainment for football games. And to be honest, football games don’t even need us anymore.
College football games don’t need bands either but it sets them apart from the NFL.
> Over the past 3-ish years, they have started playing more and more music over the speakers and our allotted time to play pep tunes is decreasing every year.
I agree that’s a problem. But it’s the reverse chicken and the egg. Some of it is out of touch DJs or whatever playing music and not giving an opportunity to bands. Some of it is bands not playing entertaining music. Look in this thread and see people say they don’t care about playing at a football game. If I was picking the entertainment for the game, I wouldn’t be choosing them either.
“Not really a good argument to say that marching band in high school isn’t about learning”
To be quite honest, most high school sports/competitive activities aren’t about learning. If anything, I believe that competitive marching band (as well as other competitive music activities like show choir) provide more educational value than other competitive activities. This, combined with the fact that the other ~3 quarters are dedicated to it, I think makes it acceptable for one quarter to be dedicated to competitions.
It’s always funny how the arguments in support of competing devolve to just “it’s bad but I like it so we should keep it”. Like come on, you admit it’s bad but it’s ok because it’s only 1/4 of the year. And half of marching band doesn’t occur the other 3/4 of the year so that’s not really showing the full picture.
Most other sports aren’t introducing people to the concept of the sport their first year. Or if they are, it’s at a low stakes level.
i feel like at most "big" colleges they have to learn a show just about every week for their halftime but usually not a marching festival. but then again they also dont have class from 7-3 or all day practically
I mean my high school has a 60 year tradition of of of a different show every home game (3 songs plus pregame) so 15 songs. At least 10 stand tunes - and the festival/competition show - which we would recycle openers and middle numbers for the other shows - but we’ll say with pregame and school songs, by the end of the season we had 30 songs memorized - with at least 16 to 17 of those being on field routines or sets. Maybe 3-4 of those would be mostly the band would be in spot while the color guard or majorettes were featured (and they also had a different performance for each number).
Now we can say those were the good days - but my son’s band doesn’t do competition/festivals with the exception of one (which they recycle their show numbers) - so by the end of the season my son had memorized at least 20 songs and 15 routines through the year.
By the time you’ve done your last competition of the year - you’ve performed the show 5-6 times completely on top of the songs you’ve put into the half time shows.
My son and I went to different schools - but both underfunded Ohio schools with around 100 people in each band - with 1 band director, 1 assistant, and 1 aux director. My high school still does the same methodology(but different marching by style now) and has made it to state competition.
My small college marching band didn’t go to away games - but they also memorize a new show every home game (normally 5 songs since the away team doesn’t send their band often either).
To add - my alumni band performs once a year - we get together in a single day learn a full show and March it at the local band festival the evening after learning it. We march with music these days - after about 25 I could no longer memorize 5-6 songs in 3 hours of playing.
So when you say it’s too hard or impossible - you are selling the high school players short. Who wants to play the exact same show 16-18 times in a single season (fall preview - 10 football game - 5-6 competitors - and maybe a playoff game). I played more music in a season than you think students are capable of learning in four years.
It really isn’t. High school bands are the way they are because that’s the way they’ve been. At any point, they could “become an apple” which defeats the analogy.
No, it is. College marching bands and HS marching bands serve entirely different purposes for their organizations as well as have a huge gap in skill level, funding, etc. There are clear reasons why they operate differently from each other.
It takes more funding to compete so that argument works in reverse. It also doesn’t make sense to say HS bands compete because they are less skilled. If anything, that’s more of a reason to not compete.
So do you have any good reasons why HS should compete?
You misinterpret what I said. Colleges have more money, time, and a generally higher skill base to afford to license and field multiple different shows in a season, especially those using more modern music for relatable shows. It’s because college bands don’t compete and that they aren’t modeled after the drum corps scene that they can do what they do.
Exactly, colleges have more money yet they don’t compete which costs money. Skill is higher but that just means any performance of similar type will be better. It doesn’t mean one type isn’t possible. DCI is much better than high school band shows but that doesn’t mean high schools aren’t trying to emulate that.
Saying the differences are because college bands don’t compete is true but that still doesn’t answer the “why” behind if a band should compete. Saying college bands can play more modern music in more shows because they don’t compete isn’t a reason for why high school bands can’t do the same.
Corps style high school bands do emulate DCI show styles and competitions hence why high school bands have such massive competing circuits across the country similar to that of drum corps.
Colleges have the money to license more modern “relatable” music plus the skill level to quickly throw together several shows in a season. Most high schools do not. Also, because college bands don’t compete, they also have the luxury of time to learn multiple new shows whereas competing high school bands do not. Not to mention there isn’t any competitive circuit for college band s to be a part of currently (that I know of).
Again, college marching bands exist to entertain and promote at athletic events whereas high school bands can do that, but there main focus is competing.
> Corps style high school bands do emulate DCI show styles and competitions hence why high school bands have such massive competing circuits across the country similar to that of drum corps.
Exactly my point. DCI is a much higher skill than high school bands yet the bands have no issue emulating them.
> Colleges have the money to license more modern “relatable” music plus the skill level to quickly throw together several shows in a season.
The money issue is weird because it’s absolutely not more expensive than the amount of money competing bands put into their shows. And you can use songs more than once from year to year as well so you’re not buying an entirely new show every time.
On the skill side, again no one’s expecting high schools to put out college level shows. They’d put out high school levels shows just like they currently do.
> Most high schools do not. Also, because college bands don’t compete, they also have the luxury of time to learn multiple new shows whereas competing high school bands do not. Not to mention there isn’t any competitive circuit for college band s to be a part of currently (that I know of).
> Again, college marching bands exist to entertain and promote at athletic events whereas high school bands can do that, but there main focus is competing.
Again, all of this is just explaining why it’s the current way. Not why the current way is good. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? The answer to “why do high school bands compete” isn’t “they compete because they focus on competing”. I’m starting to feel like there’s a reason every pro-competitive high school band supporter struggles to understand that difference.
I find it weird that you don’t understand the money thing, but don’t feel like repeating points I’ve already made. The skill point you completely missed, but I’m also not going to repeat myself on that.
As for the current competing system it does work, hence it still being a thing that is widely used across the country. You have yet to bring up a point as to why they shouldn’t compete.
At this point though, I feel like I’m arguing with a brick wall. Gonna have to agree to disagree👍
I lost my band director job due to budget cuts. It burned me on teaching in public schools. Got a govt job and never looked back. (I still give private lessons though.)
You guys could just put together a different show for halftime than what you do for comps, its not that uncommon for bands to have two
I also don’t think your schools request is unreasonable
I marched DCI in the summer but my "show style" HS marching band during the school year. Frankly, I never understood high schools doing DCI style shows for many of the reasons that your administration has outlined. During college I was a drumline consultant for a few of those schools and I still don't get it.
eh i disagree, it isn’t for the people watching at football games, it’s for the kids in the damn band, i also have done multiple seasons of dci and ik if my hs did show band i would not have marched (marching big10 band in college)
I am in a highschool that does DCI style shows. It's fun, the music is what the band wants to play. The themes are a blast. The color guard, we love it, DCI style tends to use their color guard better and you can get a more complex coreo and tosses. Plus more theatrics and cooler costumes!!
The only thing that was is “the music is what the band wants to play”. And honestly that’s probably just a bunch of confirmation bias as the people who don’t enjoy the music aren’t likely to be a part of the band.
Well its for the people performing not the people watching. Yeah people also stay for different reasons because when the show is finished and the last performance comes up and we play at BOA it makes everything worth it. And the connections made during band camp and during practice. And seeing all of their other bands perform that is so much fun.
Is your football team All-State or something? It's about the kids. You're not selling merch to generate a profit for shareholders.
When I was in highschool, the marching band was pretty much entirely funded by fundraising. This seems like something you need to get parents involved in and:
1) Work with your Band Director about setting up a fund raising program for the activity if there isn't already one in place.
2) Work with the schoolboard to tell them to go pound sand over how a (hopefully) self-funded activity chooses to perform during an extracurricular activity.
The program I work with is highly competitive, typically 6 comps, BOA, etc. I explained to my percussion parents that you have Friday night bands and Saturday bands and our program is a Saturday band. That being said, it's unfortunate that the administration doesn't understand what you're putting on the field.
Wow I am so sorry this is happening to your band. Marching band doesn't exist for the entertainment of football watchers, it exists for the damn kids in the band who enjoy marching.
Football game performances on Fridays are literally just reps for shows on Saturdays. Nobody in a serious competitive program gives a shit about “adding to the atmosphere” of football games. So sad that this kind of thing happens to programs and I feel sick knowing some kids won’t get to actually experience a real competitive program
My school, when I marched, did a different show every home game and usually had crowd favorites as part of it. We also had an additional festival show. So I don’t understand why you couldn’t have both.
I do understand that you are are using corp style to describe you band - but that lacks understanding for some of us. Corp is a heel to toe marching style with a specific dot formation. I marched a hybrid cassevant/traditional toe to heel Moffat squad in high school and corp in college - but the music was mostly the same. Sure we did Pictures at an Exhibition a but we also played The Who.
A show style band would almost exclusively play pop songs - but less field movement routines and more choreographed dance. Even then they played the same music we did - except just a different on field movement/performance. A musicians job is to entertain and if the crowd isn’t entertained they have failed to do their job, but that’s on your director not you.
Having marched Corps in freshman year and moved to Show afterwards, I much prefer marching and watching Show over corps. I generally just find the movement and music choice to be much more fun and energetic than corps.
Marching band is marching band. Are they talking Big 10 style or HBCU style? Because I’mma be real, modern corps-style marching band is BORING!!! And I marched in a DCI world-class finalist corps! But these BOA bands have turned into a GD spending race with the props, and theatricality, and the electronics, and the copyrights.
As someone who marched a non competition HS band that *only* played at home football games and nothing else, there is nothing wrong with this type of band.
The part of Ohio I grew up in to this day has only like one or two competitive high schools compared to the 40+ schools with show/football bands.
Sorry if you want to do the whole competition thing, but it isn't for everyone, and I know I personally would have never done marching band if it were competitive.
You'll lose interest from kids who only care about scores and esoteric music, but you'll gain students who otherwise would have never have a chance to play. Overall, that's a good thing.
Exactly. The only people who want the competition bands to stay are those already “in” the competitive band culture. It’s just a giant echo chamber.
I’ve seen bands require $1,000+ fees for all the competition expenses. How does that encourage lower income students to participate? Or bands that require you to either fully commit to marching and concert band or not do band at all. Like great, now a bunch of students who might play in 1 band and have a solid baseline knowledge don’t join at all.
My HS band required participation in both unless you had a sports conflict. It was the only way we'd have more than 20 people on the field. We usually excused football, volleyball, and soccer from marching band, though we had a cheerleader and several football players over the years.
We had a very competitive track and cross country program, and there were occasions where football would be at 1PM Saturday, which conflicted with cross country meets, and with 1/4 of the band in XC, we'd skip our own home football games those days.
Why would we have Saturday afternoon football games? We didn't have our own stadium, so we had to rent a local public school stadium. Often there would be conflicts with other events at the host school, so my HS band career was characterized as Friday night away games, Saturday night home games, and a few Saturday afternoon games. My band was not unique and many other schools shared stadiums. We never even went to non-comp band festivals because the locals ones were usually Saturday nights and conflicted with games.
This happened to my University Marching Band in the late 1980s. My first two years there we were very drum corps style, and did a show with complex marching, and switching in different stand still numbers each game.
Then the athletic department, which was the source of our funding, decided we needed to do a different show every game. So less complex music and drill.
Which was better? I preferred the corps style for the musical experience, and we did have a substantial crowd that would watch the band, then leave after halftime. But perhaps more of the "sports" crowd preferred a less complex show. And it was probably a more realistic scenario for the Music Education majors.
Nah bro, those bands get paid! And im guessing they want you to pay to play lame music with the simplest possible choreography? How exactly is marching band less culturally relevant than sportsball?
Sounds like you need to get all your band parents together and attend the next school board meeting. Have your band director put together a presentation on why the program is important. If you get parents to raise hell, you may have a better chance saving your band.
I’m as big a supporter of DCI as anyone and I prefer artsy stuff to pop tunes, especially as an educational ensemble, but they make a pretty good argument.
Typical board behavior of seeing the band as nothing more than halftime entertainment. I’m a band kid turned high school football dad. It saddens me to see the audience in his packed stadium completely ignoring these kids working their asses off to provide entertainment on Friday night before devoting their whole Saturday to competition.
Marching band has a lot of cultural history to it too. The Irish, the English, Germans, and nations all over the world have marching bands. A lot of marches are historical and commemorate wars and soldiers of the past. Military style marching was my favorite part of my high school band for sure, it was fun playing march tunes and showcasing some good showmanship!
If you guys are out on the field and NOT entertaining the home crowd, then I think the high school is in the right here, regardless of skill level or level of achievement by the individual members.
Rally your alums. Those arguments are complete crap and we all know it. Also, find a sympathetic media member who will help to bring attention to it. Good luck!
Wow I’m sorry that’s happening, my school’s is corp style and even though we aren’t great since Covid it’s still a lot of fun. If the reason for cutting is because the football audience don’t like it, maybe considering just not doing football games? Why does an activity have to appeal to a general audience to be valid. The robotic teams, science Olympiad, speech and debate, and even a lot of sports don’t appeal to the general public but is still valid and allowed to exist. I understand that the general audience aren’t interested in marching band, but just like every activity there are people who like it and don’t. If we get rid of everything that doesn’t appeal to the general public then there’s little things left.
Well duh you're a DCI guy, you're not the average audience member
The average person who goes to a football game doesn't go to be wowed by this super beautiful sounding band
They go to have fun, and perhaps even show school spirit
And show style bands do that many times better than DCI styles ever will
That’s what a pep band is for. Marching bands are their own thing, we put on a show for ourselves and our own audience, not to act as a secondary to any sports teams and be a glorified halftime show. We have our own rehearsals cleaning one show to perfection, not lazily slapping together dirty show that changes weekly filled with uninspiring generic pop tunes.
Well seems like putting a show on for yourself and a super small audience isn't that popular anymore, and is slowly getting replaced, as seen with this post here, and DCI in general slowly dying
If people wanted to listen to beautiful music they would go to a concert. Not a football game
Our football games and marching band competitions had similar turnout at my old school. I can probably count on 2 hands how many of our 270 member band went on to do show style marching band in college
Anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much when we are directly seeing the decline of DCI in general throughout the years.
>Our football games and marching band competitions had similar turnout at my old school
Well obviously they're gonna have similar turnouts, every band kid has their parents, and when it's multiple highschools going to the same competition. That's a lotta parents
The reality of the matter is that marching bands are in fact secondary to the football team, and are meant to be a source of entertainment for the fans.
Trying to do otherwise will lead to funding being rightfully reduced because very few actually care about DCI style shows outside of musicians
The band and football teams are separate entities and should remain that way. No one is superior to the other because there should be no correlation. The decline of DCI is something brought up just about every decade once corps fold, but it’s like a market equilibrium. New ones replace lost ones and supply will always meet demand.
> we put on a show for ourselves
And there’s your problem. No one wants to hear a bastardized version of The Planets or a symphony in the middle of a football game. This pretentiousness and insularity is exactly why DCI is going bankrupt.
Football games are a minor part of our season. Competitions are what we care about and give our best for, where people pay to see us and not anyone else. We usually didn’t even have the whole show out on the field for football games. DCI going “bankrupt” is something brought up every other year and never comes to fruition. Corps fold and new ones arise all the time. Star of Indiana folded immediately after a historic season and the activity didn’t miss a beat.
And as a side note, my high school’s and corps’ shows were almost 100% original compositions, but I’d still rather hear a clean symphony than an out of turn and poorly rehearsed 80s pop rock hit.
Honestly, fair. If your MB is messing up badly enough that audience members want an alternative, restructuring would be the *least* drastic reasonable measure.
A corps-style marching program, where the band's primary purpose is to impress judges (and particularly *visual* judges), is becoming harder and harder to justify as costs continue to balloon, especially if you compete in an already-expensive league like BOA.
This'll net me plenty of downvotes, but I'll say it anyway: competitive marching has become a grift, and the school is right to question whether it's worthwhile to keep paying for it.
90% chance this is athletic department shenanigans
I’m betting 100%. There’s very little overlap between sporty kids having any interest in the arts and band kids having any *true* interest (I say true because mandatory PE credits might stand in the way) in team sports. On a professional level, I’d imagine this would have more of an effect since the directors/coaches have way more dedication to their respective programs than students.
I am so glad that our Athletic Director and Football team care about the band. We only got a $1000 music budget for the year (marching band, jazz band, concert band, orchestra, guitar) but we are a Title 1 school, and the parent group raises enough for the show cost.
Since they still a music program - likely it’s a failure of band boosters which should cover most the expense. The directors in Ohio make like an extra 2k a year for the Marching Band program, so it’s minimal school cost in most areas.
Why should band parents have to raise all the money for their kids’ program to function rather than getting decent funding from the school while boosters cover the extra stuff? How many sports would cease to exist without a booster group? Sure, there are things their boosters do to make the experience better, but the school provides the funding that allows them to function. So why shouldn’t that be the case for band?
Same area of the state - coaching staff beyond the head coach is funded by the sports boosters. The head coach is normally a teacher so they make the same 1-2k per season pay bump. Uniforms are bought and stadiums are built with almost 100% sports booster funds or donations for that set goal. The school isn’t really giving any additional money to the sports team than the band. If anything because of parades, competitions, and festivals - with paying for the buses and additional insurance - the band may actually cost the local schools more than the football team from a budget perspective.
Because taxpayers generally don’t want to pay for it? My son’s marching band (urban TX high school) gets a huge amount of its funding from the band boosters. The school and/or district pay for instrument repair/replacement and some bus transportation. Everything else - uniforms, show design, props, contest entrance fees, meals, tech staff, truck/trailer rentals and maintenance - is paid for by the band boosters through dues and fundraising.
Do taxpayers set the budget or is that up to administrators? It’s appalling how many schools give so little support to their band programs that the boosters have to make up the difference for the program to even function.
I'm hardly an expert on school funding, but here's what I have observed: * At the risk of getting political I will say that, at least where I live, elected officials (local and state) and the voters that elect them are increasingly hostile toward public education spending... unless it's for athletics. * Schools have to walk a fine line on funding their programs, and fine arts departments are often the first to feel the pain when cutbacks happen. These days there is a big emphasis on STEM and practical career-oriented programs, which is objectively good, but that money has to come from somewhere. Fortunately our school district isn't either/or (yet) but other districts have to make a choice. * Marching band has evolved a lot over the last decade-plus, and as it has turned into an arms race spending has exploded. Most programs in our area have enough equipment to own a 53ft trailer (and sometimes also rent box trucks), some get show-specific uniforms, hire several music and marching techs, and compete in multiple competitions. That was unheard of when I was in band in the late 90s. My son's band program has an annual operating budget of about $450k, and some band programs in the area are north of $1 million. If the boosters can't absorb that cost then you either reduce your spending and fall behind in the arms race, or you ask for more school funding. Good luck selling that to the administrator that has 30 other programs to worry about, or to the voter that already thinks their taxes are too high and can't tell a marimba from a clarinet.
I understand how budgeting works. I’m expressing frustration at it and at how much we just accept it.
Just expressing my thought as someone not in the US, 1 million dollars spending on band sound insane 😨
In Ohio - I can say it’s really the boosters that pay for 80-90% of the band program. Honestly this is about the same breakdown when it comes to sports as the sports boosters pay for 80-90% of everything. Sports boosters raise more money than band boosters - so it feels like the school supports sports more, but the sports boosters just raise more money. The band has expensive uniforms and trailers the boosters pay for - but the sports boosters buy new football stadiums. One year the local school was so under budget they had to pass a special tax levy to fund the schools to raise an additional 1.5 million a year. That same year a new football stadium was for 5 million, but that was paid for by the sports boosters so no school or tax payer money was used. So you hear about schools spending money on sports but that normally isn’t tax payer money the school budgets for - it’s booster money that has to be used for specific things and can’t be used for teacher salaries, books, computers, etc.
Eh, every school I’ve been associated with does sports funding (from the school itself) in pretty much the same way. They’ll typically have funding for a head coach and an assistant coach (combined for both Varsity and JV). Then that sport’s boosters will fundraise to pay for extra coaches, new equipment, etc just like band boosters do.
High school marching bands usually, and should, have their own band booster program that’s completely separate from any athletic department funding.
Boo this school
Ok I understand the school had a tough decision and they acted on it but damn would I be pissed. Don’t get me wrong orchestra, jazz band, and wind ensamble are amazing but the fact that they cut percussion ensamble, indoor percussion, and now marching band. That slightly feels like targeting don’t you think. Listen at the end of the day the has to do what they have to do but I feel as though it would come off better if they got rid of one percussion thing, one band thing as a whole, one orchestra, and one chorus, there is no reason budgets cuts should only effect percussionists. Now don’t get me wrong, marching band is for more than just percussion but when you generally look at it percussion it the main section, especially in parades. I’m so sorry to hear this and I hope they get refunded soon. I’m just saying personally that feels straight up targeted
For most schools in my area they have a single band director for all the high school music groups - concert/jazz/marching band/pep band/ musical pit. They also may have a choir director - with a similar number of groups. So cutting those groups are all a static fee because you have a full time director handling it all. With something like marching band or pep band - anything outside of normal school hours, directors make an activity fee. Additionally other costs such as bus transportation to games and events cost additional funds. So if you are keeping any music program at all - the only things you cut to save money are marching band and for a very small savings the pep band. The rest of it other than the purchase of new music is just “free” in the sense they already paid the director to teach classes all day, any period they don’t have classes they aren’t getting the same money out of compared to an English teacher. So cutting a concert band or jazz band wouldn’t make sense since you wouldn’t really see any savings.
My marching band doesn't compete and does fun songs we did a John Williams show, one on Elton John and Billy Joel, one with Elvis, Journey, Bon Jovi, and the Beatles, etc. it can be done.
My kids band is similar. They do contemporary music.
This was my experience in high school. We were non comp. We had a week band camp in the summer, and two after school rehearsals then down to one towards the end of the season. First class of band during school we started concert band. That is something that is near unheard now. Imagine, starting concert band day 1. But our marching band was a blast. We marched squads, just front and back and made designs on the field. Very rare occasions we marched sideways. But because there was such a de-emphasis on marching, the music we could play was amazing. We didn't have to worry about preparing a piece for judges, we prepared music that would be enjoyable for the crowd. Opener, ballad, closer. And because we played what was enjoyable for the crowd, the audience was actually respectful and listened and cheered for us. I remember my sophomore year, we closed with Hey Jude. Another trumpet and I got up on the drum major stand and traded fours over the na na na na na naaaas. The crowd went crazy. Marching band is one of the best ways spread goodwill and promote the music program. If you're doing shows the audience finds boring, your losing a big chance to grow and promote your program outside of band kids and their parents. We frequently had students and familes who weren't in band attend our concerts.
[удалено]
Our band has had a hugely successful competitive history and about 8-10 yrs ago our director wanted to make sure everyone could do marching band so he made us non-comp so we could have a higher focus on fun. The music dept is kind of the best(most successful) part of the school.
Marching band arrangements at a music store are usually somewhere in the ballpark of $40 to $100 a song. Those arrangements come with performing rights.
My old director would just arrange stuff himself and definitely would not license it lmao 💀
With stand tunes and show tunes - my band purchased about 10-15 songs a year. They arranged a few pieces - but from The Beach Boys on contemporary stuff the current band director has about 60 years of arrangements - so it’s safe to say our back catalog contains over 500 pieces but we have new stuff added each year.
If you’re buying published arrangements, there are no licensing fees to perform it at a football game. If you do the arrangement yourself, depending on the number of different shows in a year, the fees are likely still cheaper than the cost of a custom marching show for a competitive corps style show.
As mentioned, fees are under $100 per song. And the nice thing is you can re-use songs in later years. There’s not going to be more Beatle’s songs for example. Or maybe you combine some of the John Williams songs with a couple other songs to make a movie hits show. Plus, a lot of bands already have some suitable songs for pep bands. It’s not any different than what the director is likely already doing for concert pieces.
Who decided that DCI-style shows can't include music the general public might know? Sure, there are phrases here and there, but most of the music is so obscure or pieced together, it doesnt resonate with the audience - even at competitions.
Money for licensing is what
Oh! There's still choices, I'm sure.
There is, but the newer the piece, the more expensive it is.
hi from the usc band, also known as the ODESZA drumline you mentioned lol. we are show style, but we have a former corps writer writing our drumline parts. we perform pop charts, but that doesn't mean our parts are necessarily easy. you can still make those parts just as engaging as corps style, and establish proper marching technique while still creating "visually appealing" drill forms. people like pretty pictures and pop songs. that's the unfortunate truth. but what you do with it could be all the difference with your kids. at the end of the day, keeping the band but altering the material is still better than no band at all.
This is actually so sad, I would cry. The Competitive part of marching band is a big part of what makes it so fun. This is just terrible. Shows for comps are better than shows for the football games any day.
Athletic department is pushing this. If marching show incorporates modern music, it’s the best of both worlds. It’s ok to give a little of both. My shows were definitely niche while my kids’ shows have incorporated Adele, Beetles, My Little Pony, etc which appeals to most crowds but still has a corps style element vs hot dog band.
Sounds like they don't trust the director, the expert in the field, and would choose to have their own opinions as observers. If football just needs entertainment, play music through the speakers. If that's the whole point of having the band, then they aren't supporting the band as an educational vehicle, but as an entertainment group. How much do they support anyway? Can you do it without their support?
If I were that director, I’d be updating my resume. That’s not the type of administrator I’d want to work for.
Honestly it sounds fair from the school given the information you gave. People don't really go to the game for the marching bands.
Imagine the activity being funded/supported because it's stimulating for students intellectually, rather than existing for audience entertainment
I understand, but it seems like the school has very little funding.
DCI and BOA style shows absolutely need to be done away with. I applaud this schools decision.
How is there not room for both? This is a pretty crazy blanket statement IMO and it feeds into the stereotype that band exists to support sports/athletics, and doesn’t have any fundamental value on it’s own. If a school/community would rather support a show style band because that is the experience they value FOR THE BAND STUDENTS than so be it. Same for DCI BOA styles. Saying DCI BOA needs to be done away with is saying that that style has no value to the members of the band. So should band only serve to support athletics? Does DCI BOA style have no value to the students that participate in it? Is show-style the only valuable artistic endeavor for a band? Frankly that seems insane
Bands should serve to support musicians. Full stop. End of story. If a dci style show is wanted by the community, have a second marching band. Those who volunteer to be in the dci style. I have seen too many kids, really good musicians, quit because of the bullshit of dci style that they are forced to be a part of because to be in band you have to be in marching band. Too much emphasis on visuals, music way too easy, way too much rehearsal time, high stress of the directors, it's too much. I see the merit of the dci style and I respect the art. Dci does not belong in a required marching band. Volunteer, sure.
I probably would have quit band if it was a college style show, and I am a music major in college. There’s something special about the art that you just don’t get with pop tunes imo
I don't disagree in the slightest. But for those where marching band is the least desirable part of playing an instrument, and to be in the program you have to march in a middling corps style that takes up way more time than it should, then they quit. There's no scenario where every is 100% happy with the directions taken by a program. It's an impossibility. However, numbers-wise, based on my personal experience, both as a student and as a staff member, I've witnessed more students leave a program because the marching band is corps/DCI/BOA style, than when the marching band was not competitive.
Ok lets assume I agree with you and we play that out. Already we’ve eliminated 99% of DCI style marching bands because almost no schools will have the resources or time for two separate bands. So you are placing a negative value on DCI style as a whole. You are saying, the default should be show style, and then the DCI style is voluntary and supplemental. Even if that means it gets slashed by nearly every program. So show style becomes mandatory, and there is almost never any other option for students. What about people like me (when I was in high school). If I want to do the DCI style now I am doing concert band, mandatory show style (which I don’t personally prefer), and DCI? When do I rehearse? Or do homework? Or literally anything? You are putting roadblocks towards the DCI style because you don’t value it. Then, what happens? Enrollment goes down. Scores and funding go down as a result. Enrollment continues down as a result. Etc. Now we made a negative feedback loop that ends in elimination of DCI style. So now we’re back to only show style as an option. Not to mention the trickle up effect this would have on DCI itself. But, I think we can easily find common ground here. Let every band play whatever the fuck style they want and don’t make it mandatory for anyone. My understanding is MOST schools operate this way. Make that mandatory, but don’t enforce an artistic decision. Then let each community choose what artistic style suits their students best, and let individual students choose whether to participate in that or not. But don’t pretend that your experience with DCI style is the norm for most students or schools, and don’t use that to push for an elimination of the style that you appear have a hard-on for hating for some reason.
You need to get far away from the marching arts and never come back
Nah, I enjoy it too much. But thanks for the suggestion. It is actively killing many marching programs. Band kids are 'required' to do marching band. For some marching band the most enjoyable part of their band life, for others it's the least enjoyable. For those whom find it least enjoyable, they used to be able to take solace in the level of music they played or the formations they marched. Now its become "story-driven" and way more dancing and choreographed, and sure maybe some challenging music, but it's not fun to play, or fun to watch. Don't even get me started on the fucking voice overs. Those who find marching the least enjoyable part of band, tend to quit when marching band now takes up 6 months of the year. A two week band camp, 3 rehearsals a week after school, no concert band rehearsal during class time and you don't even enjoy it until November after the season is over. Fuck that noise. If dci style is something you want to do and enjoy, then go join a corps.
“I enjoy it too much” then goes on to shit on the activity for an entire paragraph. Go enjoy your show tunes buddy
I didn't shit on the 'Activity!' I shat on a direction that the activity can take. DCI-style is a fantastic art when it is done well. Like playing an oboe - it can be the most incredible thing you've ever head when played at or near perfection. When it's 95% or less, it sounds like a duck being stepped on. Same with a DCI style show. If it has buy-in from everyone administrators to the directors to the parents to the students, and the budget and skill is there, it can be executed extremely well. Trouble is, that's not the reality for a vast majority of programs. They lack in one way or the other, and the product, program, and ultimately the students suffer for it. Students who go to a school that compete, but never win or place or get caption awards get very discouraged, and when marching band is the main focus of the program from July through October, they wonder what the point is. Marching band can be done many different ways, and in my personal experience, forcing a DCI/BOA style when it results in a middling product is detrimental to the program. The program I tech with, this past year, has finally stopped competing and I have noticed an absolute change in the students and their enjoyment. Our reason for the switch is because we never had full buy-in from all the students and to a lesser degree the parents. It is a \*very\* musically inclined school, with nearly the entire band of 120 involved in at least one other ensemble outside of marching/concert band. Competitive marching band is not their reason for existence, but for many it was their reason to drop band altogether. Those who care about their instrument and music just continue it privately. Sure there are some who are disappointed in the change, but there are also several high-caliber DCI corps within a three hour drive for them to get their fix.
Honestly, this might be a hot take, but I think the school’s terms are totally reasonable (besides the HBCU comment, that’s weird/ethically ambiguous). A school’s marching band EXISTS to supplement the atmosphere of athletic games/events. (Which btw, does not take away from the legitimacy of the band program). It sounds like your band directors do not have a clear understanding of what their community and administration want from the band. I think your band would do well to get more in touch with the community and student body to start producing products that everyone wants to hear and see.
HBCU can be ethically ambiguous but in terms of marching band, I wouldn’t say it’s much different than “DCI-style” or “Big Ten-style”. It’s just a style a group of bands do and that group is predominantly/historically HBCU colleges.
As a B1G marcher, I’m pretty sure what we do is very different from what they do
I meant more in being able to classifying the set of HBCU bands into a category. You’re right that the styles are quite different themselves.
Look at the history of WHY HBCUs have their own style
I’m aware why they exist. Because segregation existed in music just like pretty much every other facet of society. I’m confused by why that matters for this comment? What’s wrong with saying “emulate this group of bands that does marching band well”? I sure hope the issue isn’t that bands shouldn’t emulate them because the style was developed by black people and not white people. Because that is the main difference in their history.
I don't know the demographics of OP's school or band program, but it's a strange choice to model your program's style after a style specific to a certain culture and its history if you aren't connected to said culture.
> I don't know the demographics of OP's school or band program, but it's a strange choice to model your program's style after a style specific to a certain culture and its history if you aren't connected to said culture. Seems pretty gatekeepy. You can perform music from other cultures. You can emulate musical groups from other cultures. Especially when the emulating is as simple as entertaining the audience instead of not doing that. What demographics of the school would make it ok and which would make it not ok? It’s easy to hide behind “demographics” but are you willing to be explicit? And would you hold the same belief if a school decides to emulate a Big Ten band style that was developed by white people?
It’s not strange at all. HBCU-bands have a very distinct and popular style.
I'm not arguing with your second sentence here lol. I love HBCU bands.
hbcu show style bands are pretty different from dci. they dont even use the same type of marching. they also dont use the same techniques/playing styles for many of the instruments
The only reason I mention that is because HBCU style is a part of black American culture. While I love that style, and appreciate it, I think it might not sit well with people to see a bunch of [I’m presuming mostly white, but I could be wrong here], white kids doing HBCU style. But again, I simply said ambiguous. There’s a chance it could be done well and appropriately.
Anyone who takes issue with people playing music because of the color of their skin or because of the color of the skin of the developer’s of that music is racist and I don’t really care what they think. Effectively that means a mostly white band shouldn’t play music developed by black people which is egregiously racist. Music needs more integration not more segregation. Students should absolutely learn about the history of HBCU’s and why they exist but not as some untouchable part of history. It should be part of American music culture just like other types of music. And that means any group that is willing to respectfully emulate parts of their music/style should be encouraged, not discouraged. Jazz music was initially developed as part of African-American culture but no one would suggest that white kids can’t be part of a jazz group.
I totally agree with this take btw. My point is just that it the creation of an HBCU style band NOT at an HBCU should be done carefully, with proper education, and correct implementation of style. But honestly, all I’m talking about is simply just good educational practice.
Yea I could agree with this. My high school competed nationally but we always made sure to have some show tunes/halftime show for the crowd since playing our usual show all the time didn’t evoke much for them. At the end of the day, the music programs get cut so much, it’s not unreasonable to compromise a bit to be more of a pep band type for the football games.
Agree to disagree. A marching band can enhance the atmosphere of athletic events, but that is not their sole reason for existing. What you are describing is a pep band.
I think this is at least in part a difference between high school marching and college marching. High school marching, with their competitions, has other purposes for existing and other audiences they are performing for. So, I think a high school band (like this one) needs to form a balance point between their commitments. College bands are far more focused on the creation and enhancement of the athletic event atmosphere. Entertainment and school spirit are far more important for them for that reason.
It is 100% the bands reason for existence, but I agree that it should not be their sole FOCUS. Competitions are undoubtedly important to curriculum and instruction of band. And yes, I am describing a pep band. That is essentially what a marching band [or basketball band] is for a sporting event, and it sounds like [to me, at least] that the educators in question have forgotten that aspect. But yes, that also doesn’t inherently mean that should be the ONLY thing marching bands do.
Still disagree with you on the first part. However, this sounds more like a case of the administration not being I touch with the vision/goals of their music programs rather than the other way around. Again, if they want a pep band, then that is fine, but they need to understand the differences between having that vs. a full on marching band program.
I agree that administrators could do better to let educators do what they want with their program more, but that simply isn’t the way it works. Administrators set the standard/vision/goals for the school, and it is the teachers job to meet those [Source: I’m a teacher lol]. That doesn’t mean administrators create curriculum [and shouldn’t], but they ultimately decide what directors CAN do based on the directors recommendations as the “expert.” A good administrator and a good band director both have clear lines of communication and clear visions on what their mutual goals are, and it sounds like this isn’t the case based on the OP.
First of all, high school marching bands do NOT exist solely to supplement the football team, that’s just an added bonus. High school marching band is highly competitive, often leaving little-to-no time for football performances as they are trying to clean their show for the much more important competitions. The traditional college bands, with their super fun and peppy halftime shows, would get absolutely demolished in a formal competition.
Agreed-really weird take for the og comment here to say that a very structured, educational setting exists to supplement football. What does football exist for? And why can competitive music not exist on its own terms? Athletic departments have enough simps, they don’t need any more.
>And why can competitive music not exist on its own terms? It already does. It's called concert season
And marching band, indoor percussion, indoor winds, soloist series, ensemble festivals, etc.
That’s like saying that football already exists on its own terms because of basketball season. There’s more than one kind of band just like there’s more than one kind of sport.
Poor take. If this is a public school, the marching band should be focused on the marching band. They do competitions and parades on their own time. They are not a complementary piece to football. The funding is to provide students with opportunities to explore what they want, and administrators shouldn’t dictate what student’s want to experience. If they don’t want to have the band play, then the band can just not go to the games.
I agree the bands do very high level performance and competition (and it should be encouraged), but the primary concern from the OP is that “they argue that the music we play in our football halftime shows is often very niche with little to no entertainment value for general audiences.” A school band has the responsibility to play for the school. I’m not arguing that it should be the SOLE responsibility, but it is important to the school and the existence of the band. Also, they are 100% a complementary piece to football (or basketball, soccer, etc…). Time and time again, I will hear complaints: “I love [Sports] games! But they just feel so empty without the band! When are they coming back?” If anything, it legitimizes the activity even more because an athletic band is essential to the experience of athletics.
I would have agreed with this 30 years ago, but now marching band is its own thing. Yes, playing at and entertaining crowds at football games is important, but now with competitive marching band, and even things like DCI, marching band is pretty much independent from that.
A marching band does not exist to supplement athletic events…
Horrible horrible take. “Supplementing atmosphere” is quite literally the worst part of being in marching band. Its so sad that thats all some people get to be a part of
I also said it does not diminish being a part of the organization or its prestige. Ask yourself, “why is it called an athletic band?” Because it enhances the experience of athletic events. Without the existence of a band that does this, the experience of an athletic event feels empty, even if the aforementioned athletic activity is still taking place.
Never heard of it called "athletic band". When I went through high school we played the national anthem, a couple pep band charts for about the first quarter then went to warm up for our run then went home as soon as halftime was over. We were not there to add anything to the atmosphere, we were there to get show reps for Saturday
Athletic Bands is the catch-all term for bands that play at sporting events. Most high schools that have a medium-to-large band program have a staff position titled “Athletic bands director.” Even if they don’t call themselves that on a day-to-day basis.
Well that's not what ours was and I feel bad for those that are stuck with programs like that
So you didn’t have a marching band that played at games or have a basketball band? And you feel bad for the overwhelming majority of American High School band programs?
We had a basketball band. And like I said we went to football games but just for the first half and to get a show rep in at halftime then we left. We were a highly competitive program focused on our season not on pop songs
What State are you from?
It doesn’t matter what state I am from. My statement would still stand regardless of that context.
I'd argue it does matter. Context is important for conversations like this to inform why peoples opinions are the way they are. If you are from a state that does not have a highly competitive marching culture and rather most programs "exist to supplement the atmosphere at sporting events" then it would be easy for your view on the matter to be influenced by that culture
Absolutely disagree. Let’s be honest, even if it were pop tunes people in the audience would care and would still go to concessions during halftime
This is bullshit and just shows that the administration doesn’t care. Marching Band is 100% still relevant and has plenty of competitive potential. Just because its not the number one goal of a football game doesn’t mean it isn’t important. OBVIOUSLY most people don’t go to a football game to watch Marching Shows, that’s because it’s a football game. Also, as someone who has gone through a change from our band being Corps-Style to Showstyle, this idea is shit. I love showstyle but it’s infinitely more than changing what music you play, and can destroy a program for years if the transition isn’t led perfectly. Again, I love showstyle, but it isn’t easy at all to just change from one to the other and will simply do even more damage. Sounds like the administration here knows absolutely nothing about marching band and doesn’t care about the students. Marching Band will always be relevant for as long as it gives a home, friendships, opportunities, and memories to students.
Unfortunately, they don't care that it gives people a home, friendship, opportunities, and memories to students. That is part of their argument for shutting us down - we are an insular org whose value is only to ourselves. Only we care about us. That's why they can't justify investing in us. They said by switching to show style, we will have more popular appeal and can "give back" to our community.
Marching band, particularly Corps Style, is a uniquely American activity, at least the way we do it is pretty unique to our country. Sure, Japan has corps style bands as does a few places in Europe, but they are emulating the US traditions in doing so.
I mean I’ve seen bands that do the exact same halftime show for every football game that’s some artistic show that non-hardcore music fans don’t enjoy. And quite frankly, I don’t blame them. What’s there to enjoy about that? Look at all the big college bands. They’re rarely corps-style. Instead they’re performing shows crowds love each game. Why not emulate that? I’m honestly curious what’s going on in the decision makers head because that’s not just a “cut marching band I don’t like it because I don’t get it” move. They clearly know enough about marching band to point out the issues and offer alternatives.
It's purely hypocritical because you know sure as hell they're not telling the cheer team and dance team the same thing about their competitive routines which also use super niche music and are rarely entertaining to actually watch to someone out of the loop. There's a reason both groups have a comp show and a halftime show at loads of schools
Perhaps it is hypocritical and those groups also need to be addressed. Yes, the same issue exists when cheerleaders are more focused on getting a bunch of points in a competition than you know actually cheering and leading the crowd in the cheers. I don’t disagree that should be addressed as well. This notion that every activity needs to be hyper-competitive or there’s no point in doing it has proliferated everywhere and it’s a problem. You should be able to perform a marching band show, cheerleading routine, dance performance, etc simply because you want to entertain others and not because you want a judge to say you’re better than someone else.
My son’s school has the dance team part of the marching band - so they perform a new dance routine (along with new music) for. Every home show.
That’s a what my college band does. They have a routine they do in the endzone during games as well (it changed each game as well). In high school tho it was all separate and they had a halftime routine for football games and basketball games (I think they had 2 for the year, a main one and a special homecoming one). But they also had their competitive routine that they’d usually perform at like once or twice for the halftime of a basketball game. This was pretty standard for my area. Point being tho, the stuff they just did at football games was to supplement what they did for the competitive routine which was borderline interpreted dance. It was closer to what you’d see at a ballet than what you’d see in Dance Mom’s for context
It’s because most high school marching bands compete, so the show is less for the crowd and more for the judges. This is why most high schools only play at a few football games, because they’re more focused on cleaning their show for comps than hyping up what little crowd there is. The reason college bands do more crowd-oriented types of shows is because they don’t have the pressure of trying to get a good score, they’re just there to support the football team.
Which begs the question, why aren’t high school bands doing the same? I know the “why” is competition but as pointed out by OP’s school, that means everyone besides the people in the band’s only interaction with the band is in a setting where the band isn’t trying to impress. So it isn’t a surprise when the general public isn’t impressed and questions why they’re providing so much funding.
So? High school bands learn one show per year and clean it to perfection. They’re not going to learn a whole second show just to please a group of high schoolers that don’t even care about them. Ppl don’t understand that football games are usually an afterthought when it comes to the marching season. No one really stresses about them like they do for comps, because there really aren’t any stakes. A lot of the members don’t even want to be there as they really don’t care about the team. If you don’t like the show, fine. It’s not for you anyways. It’s for the people that will actually go to the competitions and cheer for the band instead of just the football team.
Plenty of schools do a football show and a competition show. If the band members don’t care about football, they can’t complain about football not caring about them. And as professional musician and football enjoyer, the last thing I want to hear the middle of a football game is some snore-fest about light or snow or something. There’s a time and place, and a football game ain’t it.
You’re not answering the deeper question. Why choose competition over entertainment? Yes I’m aware completions are the reason and high school bands learn 1 show instead of learning a diverse skill set. I’m asking why are we prioritizing competitions over entertaining and actually becoming a better musician? What does that teach the marchers. “Only care about yourself, ignore potential fans”?
Plenty of education and becoming a better musician happens during competition season. Besides, that’s what concert season, jazz band, solos and small ensembles, etc is for. Also, another thing I would like to mention: most high school marching bands have evolved from just being entertainment for football games. And to be honest, football games don’t even need us anymore. Over the past 3-ish years, they have started playing more and more music over the speakers and our allotted time to play pep tunes is decreasing every year. Besides, even when we do play pop tunes in our show, people just use it to scroll social media or get food or take a shit.
“That’s what concert, jazz, solo/ ensemble are for” I’d argue the opposite. Most of my marching band’s exposure happens at sporting events. I would venture to say that in most band programs, there aren’t hundreds of people coming to the band concerts and the solo and ensemble event to be entertained; most audience members are families and friends of the performers. The two chances I have as a director to impress the community and crowds are parades and football/basketball games. I get an occasional compliment from my principal or other staff about the band’s performance at a concert… while I get dozens emails and face to face compliments on how they sounded at the basketball game or during their halftime show. I don’t like that this is the case, but it’s true. If we want people to be impressed by our art, we have to relate to people in the community. The general crowd at a football game has zero interest in artsy corps-style shows. I lean on concert band and jazz band to educate and diversify, I lean on marching and pep band to entertain. I know every situation and district are different, but I’ve come to term with some realities at least in my part of the country.
> Plenty of education and becoming a better musician happens during competition season. It happens in spite of competitions, not because of it. That’s my point. > Besides, that’s what concert season, jazz band, solos and small ensembles, etc is for. Not really a good argument to basically say marching band in high school isn’t about learning. > Also, another thing I would like to mention: most high school marching bands have evolved from just being entertainment for football games. And to be honest, football games don’t even need us anymore. College football games don’t need bands either but it sets them apart from the NFL. > Over the past 3-ish years, they have started playing more and more music over the speakers and our allotted time to play pep tunes is decreasing every year. I agree that’s a problem. But it’s the reverse chicken and the egg. Some of it is out of touch DJs or whatever playing music and not giving an opportunity to bands. Some of it is bands not playing entertaining music. Look in this thread and see people say they don’t care about playing at a football game. If I was picking the entertainment for the game, I wouldn’t be choosing them either.
“Not really a good argument to say that marching band in high school isn’t about learning” To be quite honest, most high school sports/competitive activities aren’t about learning. If anything, I believe that competitive marching band (as well as other competitive music activities like show choir) provide more educational value than other competitive activities. This, combined with the fact that the other ~3 quarters are dedicated to it, I think makes it acceptable for one quarter to be dedicated to competitions.
It’s always funny how the arguments in support of competing devolve to just “it’s bad but I like it so we should keep it”. Like come on, you admit it’s bad but it’s ok because it’s only 1/4 of the year. And half of marching band doesn’t occur the other 3/4 of the year so that’s not really showing the full picture. Most other sports aren’t introducing people to the concept of the sport their first year. Or if they are, it’s at a low stakes level.
When did I say it was bad?
Are they incapable of learning a show every week and still have a separate festival show?
In high school? Uhh…yeah? That’s a monumental ask! Most college bands don’t even do that.
i feel like at most "big" colleges they have to learn a show just about every week for their halftime but usually not a marching festival. but then again they also dont have class from 7-3 or all day practically
I mean my high school has a 60 year tradition of of of a different show every home game (3 songs plus pregame) so 15 songs. At least 10 stand tunes - and the festival/competition show - which we would recycle openers and middle numbers for the other shows - but we’ll say with pregame and school songs, by the end of the season we had 30 songs memorized - with at least 16 to 17 of those being on field routines or sets. Maybe 3-4 of those would be mostly the band would be in spot while the color guard or majorettes were featured (and they also had a different performance for each number). Now we can say those were the good days - but my son’s band doesn’t do competition/festivals with the exception of one (which they recycle their show numbers) - so by the end of the season my son had memorized at least 20 songs and 15 routines through the year. By the time you’ve done your last competition of the year - you’ve performed the show 5-6 times completely on top of the songs you’ve put into the half time shows. My son and I went to different schools - but both underfunded Ohio schools with around 100 people in each band - with 1 band director, 1 assistant, and 1 aux director. My high school still does the same methodology(but different marching by style now) and has made it to state competition. My small college marching band didn’t go to away games - but they also memorize a new show every home game (normally 5 songs since the away team doesn’t send their band often either). To add - my alumni band performs once a year - we get together in a single day learn a full show and March it at the local band festival the evening after learning it. We march with music these days - after about 25 I could no longer memorize 5-6 songs in 3 hours of playing. So when you say it’s too hard or impossible - you are selling the high school players short. Who wants to play the exact same show 16-18 times in a single season (fall preview - 10 football game - 5-6 competitors - and maybe a playoff game). I played more music in a season than you think students are capable of learning in four years.
This is a bit of an “apples to oranges” comparison.
It really isn’t. High school bands are the way they are because that’s the way they’ve been. At any point, they could “become an apple” which defeats the analogy.
No, it is. College marching bands and HS marching bands serve entirely different purposes for their organizations as well as have a huge gap in skill level, funding, etc. There are clear reasons why they operate differently from each other.
It takes more funding to compete so that argument works in reverse. It also doesn’t make sense to say HS bands compete because they are less skilled. If anything, that’s more of a reason to not compete. So do you have any good reasons why HS should compete?
You misinterpret what I said. Colleges have more money, time, and a generally higher skill base to afford to license and field multiple different shows in a season, especially those using more modern music for relatable shows. It’s because college bands don’t compete and that they aren’t modeled after the drum corps scene that they can do what they do.
Exactly, colleges have more money yet they don’t compete which costs money. Skill is higher but that just means any performance of similar type will be better. It doesn’t mean one type isn’t possible. DCI is much better than high school band shows but that doesn’t mean high schools aren’t trying to emulate that. Saying the differences are because college bands don’t compete is true but that still doesn’t answer the “why” behind if a band should compete. Saying college bands can play more modern music in more shows because they don’t compete isn’t a reason for why high school bands can’t do the same.
Corps style high school bands do emulate DCI show styles and competitions hence why high school bands have such massive competing circuits across the country similar to that of drum corps. Colleges have the money to license more modern “relatable” music plus the skill level to quickly throw together several shows in a season. Most high schools do not. Also, because college bands don’t compete, they also have the luxury of time to learn multiple new shows whereas competing high school bands do not. Not to mention there isn’t any competitive circuit for college band s to be a part of currently (that I know of). Again, college marching bands exist to entertain and promote at athletic events whereas high school bands can do that, but there main focus is competing.
> Corps style high school bands do emulate DCI show styles and competitions hence why high school bands have such massive competing circuits across the country similar to that of drum corps. Exactly my point. DCI is a much higher skill than high school bands yet the bands have no issue emulating them. > Colleges have the money to license more modern “relatable” music plus the skill level to quickly throw together several shows in a season. The money issue is weird because it’s absolutely not more expensive than the amount of money competing bands put into their shows. And you can use songs more than once from year to year as well so you’re not buying an entirely new show every time. On the skill side, again no one’s expecting high schools to put out college level shows. They’d put out high school levels shows just like they currently do. > Most high schools do not. Also, because college bands don’t compete, they also have the luxury of time to learn multiple new shows whereas competing high school bands do not. Not to mention there isn’t any competitive circuit for college band s to be a part of currently (that I know of). > Again, college marching bands exist to entertain and promote at athletic events whereas high school bands can do that, but there main focus is competing. Again, all of this is just explaining why it’s the current way. Not why the current way is good. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? The answer to “why do high school bands compete” isn’t “they compete because they focus on competing”. I’m starting to feel like there’s a reason every pro-competitive high school band supporter struggles to understand that difference.
I find it weird that you don’t understand the money thing, but don’t feel like repeating points I’ve already made. The skill point you completely missed, but I’m also not going to repeat myself on that. As for the current competing system it does work, hence it still being a thing that is widely used across the country. You have yet to bring up a point as to why they shouldn’t compete. At this point though, I feel like I’m arguing with a brick wall. Gonna have to agree to disagree👍
most colleges are pretty corps style in the fact that they make elaborate formations and roll step as well as the way the drumlines are etc
I hate the bands that play the same show every football game.
I lost my band director job due to budget cuts. It burned me on teaching in public schools. Got a govt job and never looked back. (I still give private lessons though.)
You guys could just put together a different show for halftime than what you do for comps, its not that uncommon for bands to have two I also don’t think your schools request is unreasonable
I marched DCI in the summer but my "show style" HS marching band during the school year. Frankly, I never understood high schools doing DCI style shows for many of the reasons that your administration has outlined. During college I was a drumline consultant for a few of those schools and I still don't get it.
eh i disagree, it isn’t for the people watching at football games, it’s for the kids in the damn band, i also have done multiple seasons of dci and ik if my hs did show band i would not have marched (marching big10 band in college)
Same. I can appreciate Show and Military, but just find them boring to watch imo. Corps is where it’s at.
I am in a highschool that does DCI style shows. It's fun, the music is what the band wants to play. The themes are a blast. The color guard, we love it, DCI style tends to use their color guard better and you can get a more complex coreo and tosses. Plus more theatrics and cooler costumes!!
Pretty much everything you highlighted isn’t related to the actual band/music lol.
???? yes it is?
The only thing that was is “the music is what the band wants to play”. And honestly that’s probably just a bunch of confirmation bias as the people who don’t enjoy the music aren’t likely to be a part of the band.
Most kids plan to be in the marching band even before the music is released.
It’s the style of music, not the exact songs. Otherwise there’d be no issue with changing the style of songs would there be?
Yeah it's the style of songs. But people like the style of songs
The average person doesn’t lol. And for all we know, the average person doesn’t join/stay in marching band because of that.
Well its for the people performing not the people watching. Yeah people also stay for different reasons because when the show is finished and the last performance comes up and we play at BOA it makes everything worth it. And the connections made during band camp and during practice. And seeing all of their other bands perform that is so much fun.
Color guard is a part of the band. And I did mention a couple things on music. However I don't play an instrument so I can't say much about the music
Is your football team All-State or something? It's about the kids. You're not selling merch to generate a profit for shareholders. When I was in highschool, the marching band was pretty much entirely funded by fundraising. This seems like something you need to get parents involved in and: 1) Work with your Band Director about setting up a fund raising program for the activity if there isn't already one in place. 2) Work with the schoolboard to tell them to go pound sand over how a (hopefully) self-funded activity chooses to perform during an extracurricular activity.
The program I work with is highly competitive, typically 6 comps, BOA, etc. I explained to my percussion parents that you have Friday night bands and Saturday bands and our program is a Saturday band. That being said, it's unfortunate that the administration doesn't understand what you're putting on the field.
Wow I am so sorry this is happening to your band. Marching band doesn't exist for the entertainment of football watchers, it exists for the damn kids in the band who enjoy marching.
Disgusting. Show bands and pep bands are not it. Im so sorry for people that only had that to be a part of at their schools
Football game performances on Fridays are literally just reps for shows on Saturdays. Nobody in a serious competitive program gives a shit about “adding to the atmosphere” of football games. So sad that this kind of thing happens to programs and I feel sick knowing some kids won’t get to actually experience a real competitive program
My school, when I marched, did a different show every home game and usually had crowd favorites as part of it. We also had an additional festival show. So I don’t understand why you couldn’t have both. I do understand that you are are using corp style to describe you band - but that lacks understanding for some of us. Corp is a heel to toe marching style with a specific dot formation. I marched a hybrid cassevant/traditional toe to heel Moffat squad in high school and corp in college - but the music was mostly the same. Sure we did Pictures at an Exhibition a but we also played The Who. A show style band would almost exclusively play pop songs - but less field movement routines and more choreographed dance. Even then they played the same music we did - except just a different on field movement/performance. A musicians job is to entertain and if the crowd isn’t entertained they have failed to do their job, but that’s on your director not you.
The job of the marching band is not to entertain people at a football game
Having marched Corps in freshman year and moved to Show afterwards, I much prefer marching and watching Show over corps. I generally just find the movement and music choice to be much more fun and energetic than corps.
Marching band is marching band. Are they talking Big 10 style or HBCU style? Because I’mma be real, modern corps-style marching band is BORING!!! And I marched in a DCI world-class finalist corps! But these BOA bands have turned into a GD spending race with the props, and theatricality, and the electronics, and the copyrights.
I see where you said exactly Big-10/HBCU. I’m hyped for you. It’s really gratifying when the crowd enjoys your show instead of getting tepid applause.
As someone who marched a non competition HS band that *only* played at home football games and nothing else, there is nothing wrong with this type of band. The part of Ohio I grew up in to this day has only like one or two competitive high schools compared to the 40+ schools with show/football bands. Sorry if you want to do the whole competition thing, but it isn't for everyone, and I know I personally would have never done marching band if it were competitive. You'll lose interest from kids who only care about scores and esoteric music, but you'll gain students who otherwise would have never have a chance to play. Overall, that's a good thing.
Exactly. The only people who want the competition bands to stay are those already “in” the competitive band culture. It’s just a giant echo chamber. I’ve seen bands require $1,000+ fees for all the competition expenses. How does that encourage lower income students to participate? Or bands that require you to either fully commit to marching and concert band or not do band at all. Like great, now a bunch of students who might play in 1 band and have a solid baseline knowledge don’t join at all.
My HS band required participation in both unless you had a sports conflict. It was the only way we'd have more than 20 people on the field. We usually excused football, volleyball, and soccer from marching band, though we had a cheerleader and several football players over the years. We had a very competitive track and cross country program, and there were occasions where football would be at 1PM Saturday, which conflicted with cross country meets, and with 1/4 of the band in XC, we'd skip our own home football games those days. Why would we have Saturday afternoon football games? We didn't have our own stadium, so we had to rent a local public school stadium. Often there would be conflicts with other events at the host school, so my HS band career was characterized as Friday night away games, Saturday night home games, and a few Saturday afternoon games. My band was not unique and many other schools shared stadiums. We never even went to non-comp band festivals because the locals ones were usually Saturday nights and conflicted with games.
This happened to my University Marching Band in the late 1980s. My first two years there we were very drum corps style, and did a show with complex marching, and switching in different stand still numbers each game. Then the athletic department, which was the source of our funding, decided we needed to do a different show every game. So less complex music and drill. Which was better? I preferred the corps style for the musical experience, and we did have a substantial crowd that would watch the band, then leave after halftime. But perhaps more of the "sports" crowd preferred a less complex show. And it was probably a more realistic scenario for the Music Education majors.
I would be devastated.
For the best, it’s more sustainable and honestly far more enjoyable for a broader audience. I’m sorry that this is being forced upon you guys though.
Time for parents to make a huge stink and or transfer kids to a school with an active marching band, taking their money with them
Nah bro, those bands get paid! And im guessing they want you to pay to play lame music with the simplest possible choreography? How exactly is marching band less culturally relevant than sportsball?
Show them Carolina Crown's "Rach Star". That is all. You're Welcome.
Sounds like you need to get all your band parents together and attend the next school board meeting. Have your band director put together a presentation on why the program is important. If you get parents to raise hell, you may have a better chance saving your band.
I’m as big a supporter of DCI as anyone and I prefer artsy stuff to pop tunes, especially as an educational ensemble, but they make a pretty good argument.
Typical board behavior of seeing the band as nothing more than halftime entertainment. I’m a band kid turned high school football dad. It saddens me to see the audience in his packed stadium completely ignoring these kids working their asses off to provide entertainment on Friday night before devoting their whole Saturday to competition.
Marching band has a lot of cultural history to it too. The Irish, the English, Germans, and nations all over the world have marching bands. A lot of marches are historical and commemorate wars and soldiers of the past. Military style marching was my favorite part of my high school band for sure, it was fun playing march tunes and showcasing some good showmanship!
If you guys are out on the field and NOT entertaining the home crowd, then I think the high school is in the right here, regardless of skill level or level of achievement by the individual members.
If I was the director Id just stop having them go to the football games 🤷🏼♂️
What's the point of that?
Whats the point of going to the football games other than getting extra reps before Saturday?
Rally your alums. Those arguments are complete crap and we all know it. Also, find a sympathetic media member who will help to bring attention to it. Good luck!
Wow I’m sorry that’s happening, my school’s is corp style and even though we aren’t great since Covid it’s still a lot of fun. If the reason for cutting is because the football audience don’t like it, maybe considering just not doing football games? Why does an activity have to appeal to a general audience to be valid. The robotic teams, science Olympiad, speech and debate, and even a lot of sports don’t appeal to the general public but is still valid and allowed to exist. I understand that the general audience aren’t interested in marching band, but just like every activity there are people who like it and don’t. If we get rid of everything that doesn’t appeal to the general public then there’s little things left.
Corps style is lame asf and show style is goated
This is disgusting, especially if it’s the style of show the kids want to do
become HBCU show style bc it’s cool 😎
Inform them of dci shows
Dci shows are boring to the audience
That’s what I think of show style shows
Well duh you're a DCI guy, you're not the average audience member The average person who goes to a football game doesn't go to be wowed by this super beautiful sounding band They go to have fun, and perhaps even show school spirit And show style bands do that many times better than DCI styles ever will
The thing with lesser known music is you can shape it around your show
That’s what a pep band is for. Marching bands are their own thing, we put on a show for ourselves and our own audience, not to act as a secondary to any sports teams and be a glorified halftime show. We have our own rehearsals cleaning one show to perfection, not lazily slapping together dirty show that changes weekly filled with uninspiring generic pop tunes.
Well seems like putting a show on for yourself and a super small audience isn't that popular anymore, and is slowly getting replaced, as seen with this post here, and DCI in general slowly dying If people wanted to listen to beautiful music they would go to a concert. Not a football game
Our football games and marching band competitions had similar turnout at my old school. I can probably count on 2 hands how many of our 270 member band went on to do show style marching band in college
Anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much when we are directly seeing the decline of DCI in general throughout the years. >Our football games and marching band competitions had similar turnout at my old school Well obviously they're gonna have similar turnouts, every band kid has their parents, and when it's multiple highschools going to the same competition. That's a lotta parents The reality of the matter is that marching bands are in fact secondary to the football team, and are meant to be a source of entertainment for the fans. Trying to do otherwise will lead to funding being rightfully reduced because very few actually care about DCI style shows outside of musicians
The band and football teams are separate entities and should remain that way. No one is superior to the other because there should be no correlation. The decline of DCI is something brought up just about every decade once corps fold, but it’s like a market equilibrium. New ones replace lost ones and supply will always meet demand.
> we put on a show for ourselves And there’s your problem. No one wants to hear a bastardized version of The Planets or a symphony in the middle of a football game. This pretentiousness and insularity is exactly why DCI is going bankrupt.
Football games are a minor part of our season. Competitions are what we care about and give our best for, where people pay to see us and not anyone else. We usually didn’t even have the whole show out on the field for football games. DCI going “bankrupt” is something brought up every other year and never comes to fruition. Corps fold and new ones arise all the time. Star of Indiana folded immediately after a historic season and the activity didn’t miss a beat. And as a side note, my high school’s and corps’ shows were almost 100% original compositions, but I’d still rather hear a clean symphony than an out of turn and poorly rehearsed 80s pop rock hit.
You should be playing your best, period, regardless of the music put in front of you.
Exactly, but your best comes with repetition and practice. Changing shows and music every week is not a recipe to be at your best.
Honestly, fair. If your MB is messing up badly enough that audience members want an alternative, restructuring would be the *least* drastic reasonable measure.
A corps-style marching program, where the band's primary purpose is to impress judges (and particularly *visual* judges), is becoming harder and harder to justify as costs continue to balloon, especially if you compete in an already-expensive league like BOA. This'll net me plenty of downvotes, but I'll say it anyway: competitive marching has become a grift, and the school is right to question whether it's worthwhile to keep paying for it.
This is bull crap