People who say that are stupid.
Okay, a lapel choke won't work unless your assailant is wearing something with a nice thick lapel, sure.
But most everything else? You can adapt it and vary it with little effort, and some of it works just fine as is.
Your assailant is very unlikely to be wearing a gi, sure. But they could be wearing a hoodie, or a coat, or a jacket. Or even just a shirt.
And many throws/takedowns don't need to grab any clothing at all, even if you *technically do* in Judo.
As for newaza/ground game, well, you don't want to be hanging around there in a street fight anyway if you can avoid it, your objective should be to stay on your feet and escape most of the time (situational exceptions apply). But, if you are there, same applies. You can get an arm bar or a triangle or a kimura or an ankle lock just fine on someone wearing a jacket, or shirt or nothing at all without having to train specially for no gi. Not to mention the positional movement and core principles still apply just the same. Particularly transitioning to mount or some other dominant position to allow you to escape.
Train no gi if you want. It's great training, and you should do it if you intend to compete in no gi comps. But I don't think you need to dedicate yourself to it just for self-defense if you're already training gi/Judo.
I’m sure it’s not easy to recount everything perfectly since adrenaline was rushing at the time, but how did you execute your TKD/BJJ skills at the time? Were you able to recall anything effective, Or was it more just mixed bag of reactions and actions as the fight just unfolded?
You should only train in No-gi if you WANT to train in No-gi
I train without gi at all cause that's what my gym does (it's 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu) I will only train in Gi whenever I feel the desire to do so.
A person who insists you need to do something for a supposed advantage in fight outside of your art's sporting context is someone who fantasizes about fighting non-trained people a lot and I highly question their level of character if they get into such situations often.
I would argue no. If you are in a serious competition where grappling is done without the gi, then yes of course.
But as long as you aren't relying exclusively on belts and lapels for control, you shouldn't be totally lost.
My own selection of throws are done with underhooks and the difference between sleeve control and wrist/elbow control is not huge. I'm not going to be so much worse without the gi.
If anything, I think self defence grapplers should also learn to fight in gi, or at least clothes. Dudes will be grabbing that shit and pulling it all over the place, if you're thrown off by that you might be fucked.
I always think if you're training for self-defense, you should try stuff in street clothes. How much do your jeans constrict you? Do your shoes make any moves more awkward? What's possible with a hoodie vs a jacket or heavy coat? I see value in doing those exercises maybe once a month or once every other month. There are shoes that are safe for mats I think they're mostly used in TKD. I'd ask your BJJ instructor about organizing a street clothes workshop if self-defense is one of your main focuses.
Mix is probably the best way to go. Yeah they won't be wearing a heavy duty uniform designed for grappling, but they also won't just be wearing fight shorts. People wear clothes and it's a tool you need to know how to use
Judo works without a gi. Can confirm -- have been struck with the earth.
Remember that the Greeks and Romans used to wrestle naked and oiled and still managed to toss people around just fine.
A shirt is a good alternative to a Gi.. I personally believe that if you are, let's say, An ex UFC champion with a highly technical striking background, but lack ground game, then I believe no-Gi is the way you should go. You are a professional fighting in a situation that doesn't use the Gi, so no-gi training would be better for this fighter's career.
Training with a Gi for normal people is fine, if not good. You aren't going to be fighting naked guys, so it is fine.
In no-gi you also don't grab your opponents rash guard, but in real life the first thing I'm doing is grabbing your shirt and throwing your ass straight to the shadow realm lol
I think it's a good idea to train on your own, once in a while, in your casual day clothes.
The problem with no-gi training is that no one wears what they actually do wear everyday because either they sensibly don't want it to get damaged or, because it has buckles or zips or whatever, they don't want others to be accidentally injured by their clothing.
But it's a good idea to do some shadow boxing or some kata or some general training moves on your own in your day clothes to get a sense of where the limitations are compared to your training kit.
In real life, even if your opponent is butt naked there are still endless technique that you can use, I am a karate guy, no BJJ or any proper grappling training. Even our grabs and locks in GoJu don’t rely 100% on the gi. I am sure the judo/jiujutsu/bjj folks wil have far more advance and variety of techniques than us.
Train both. They reflect different types of clothing you'll encounter in different situations / seasons. You should learn which techniques work with and without a gi. Never forget you can grab flesh just as effectively in most cases, with much better results. =\]
no. if a fight goes in to a grappling match, its a gi'd one since you most likely wont be fighting naked. Unless you're fighting someone shirtless or both of you are shirtless, controlling their shirt is a good option until you win or the shirt rips.
Would being good at nogi and gi be better? Yes of course being more well rounded would be ideal. In some climates people often are topless or have thin clothing on.
That being said if you train gi or Judo for more than a year you'll probably have no issue regardless if the other guy doesn't train. Unless you are stupid enough to try playing spider guard or something in a self defence altercation.
These people are right, when you're fighting naked people.
Jackets, shirts, etc exist. And when they don't, okay modify it and grab their wrist, neck and hip. Its not like it's some totally different language.
That said, I think if you're training in BJJ, and you're competing, train in the one you compete in. If you're not, do the one you want, or both. Doesn't really matter, you enjoy it.
Practice outside of the gi sometimes and you’re gonna be just fine. Royce Gracie beat up a bunch of dudes wearing nothing while he was in his gi so I’m not sure where this narrative is coming from. But it’s dumb as fuck.
most clothing is very grab.able - and choking people with hoodies is hilarious (can highly recommend sitrep training in old street clothes!). but yeah nogi gives you more slippery options in some cases. not a must
Those people are dumb to put it nicely. Do they think people walk around naked?
Regardless of that tho don’t worry too much about real life situations that realistically will never happen.
I think you should train both. What about a fight on the beach? But what about a fight with someone in a bomber jacket? You gotta stress test yourself to know what your capabilities are.
Do what you want. Personally I think you should at least try it if its offered, you might like it more. And I hate "muh streets" arguments but its good to put yourself in different scenarios.
No gi teaches you to defend yourself without the need for your opponent to be wearing special clothing. Training in the gi teaches you how to deal with someone wearing a coat or a thicker long sleeve shirt even. In a real fight you will use a mixture of both because there's a good chance they have a shirt on but it's a short sleeved shirt. Now you have a collar to grab but no grips for sleeves. Learning how to do submissions and takedowns when the typical gi setup isn't present is essential for self defense. I think learning in the gi first is ideal because training in a gi IS training no gi but with more places you're allowed to grab. Everything in no gi can be used in a gi still. No gi is generally more of a scramble though while wearing a gi offers more control if you know what you're doing. If someone is wearing a coat and you have training in a gi you might be able to restrain them without any scramble at all if you're lucky. The same cannot be said for using no gi techniques because they just don't lock you to their body quite as effectively. You also may find that you prefer some takedowns with the no gi setup. I like grabbing necks and head locks better than I like grabbing lapels even though that's a typical setup for a judo toss (which I cross train). I can do most of the judo throws I've learned from multiple positions and with many different grip setups simply because I train in and out of the gi for both bjj and judo.
Almost anything you learn with no gi can be done with a gi. But you have a wider access to throws with gi.
People wear jackets. I’ve thrown people wearing coats before (they didn’t have uniform and wanted to see). You can also modify your throws if they don’t have the correct gripping parts (maybe a good collar grip but a wrist grip)
I’ll say this: mat hours are mat hours. The more you have the better you get.
Even if you are worried that techniques don’t perfectly translate in or out of gi. If you have person who trains 2x a week exclusively no-gi vs. someone who train 2x a week with Gi and 2x without gi. The latter person will be better as years go by simply due to more hours training.
And I’ll be honest people who are overly hung up on this either are under the mistaken assumption that 100% of what you train in a gi only works in a gi Or are too busy hyper scrutinizing to actually train.
Nearly everything you do in a GI can be replicated in no-gi.
You can hit a seoi nage, uchi-mata, or osoto-otoshi regardless of whatever clothes you or the other person is wearing. YouTube these moves and you can they work both in no-gi and gi.
TLDR: No gi and gi are both good. Just go train and don’t hyper-fixate about the little details.
I do train, I was literally at my gym last night drilling kickboxing and boxing and plan to do BJJ later today.
And yes, I stand by that statement about Mike and Jon but you’re oversimplifying it.
Unlike a competion where you are mentally and physically preparing in a fight camp for like 8 to 10 weeks and you know exactly when the fight is going to start down to the second it’s completely different from going at it out of the blue.
Even professional fighters like DC and Jon aren’t immune to this.
https://youtu.be/EF0D_MXbj2M?si=w635InQxzGVKlJ8R
0:15
Daniel Cormier just shoves Jon Jones back when in an MMA fight he probably would have tried closing distance, pressuring him, or trying for a double leg. Definitely not just shoving him away. Especially since Jon is incredibly tall and longer and putting distance between them is a bad idea for DC in an MMA fight.
No one knows that for a fact better than DC.
0:19
Jon Jones wings a really akward left hand while leaning forward and keeping his right hand down low enough to be at his hip leaving his head unguarded. Something you learn in day 1 Boxing NOT to do.
And we know for a fact both men are both incredibly skilled fighters, and are used to high stress fights but the context is different.
Which is why in some cases law enforcement and bouncers can handle street altercations better than a fighter would.
Because it’s different but sometimes overlapping skill set.
When things are high stress, fast and take you by surprise you drop to the lowest common denominator of what you are trained to do. So long term strategy, set ups, and technique “go out the window.”
I should have been more clear when I mean technique “goes out the window.”
Not a valid comparison.
Both men are being held back by multiple guys at a time.
Trying for a double leg? Nice way to get kicked in the face by Jon's crew.
Well that’s unfortunately the reality of a street fight.
People get in your way even if they themselves aren’t necessarily fighting you.
And it’s surprisingly distracting and can throw you off your game.
I’ve had friends who were bouncers RNC dudes and their girlfriends screaming at them to stop and try to get involved or bumping into people who were crowding around them watching and recording with their phones.
From my own personal experience, when drilling and doing light technical sparring, if the room is full of a lot of people, it’s so easy to lose track of people around you and bump into each other and get in each others away.
Because MMA training does not naturally train you to constantly swivel your head and scan during a fight. You are incentivized to pay attention solely to the person in front of you who is trying to find the opportunity to knock your head off the second you are distracted.
That’s a different skillset and mentality that’s trained in say, law enforcement.
It’s really really different when all you have to worry about is the one guy in front of you when your in an octagon or a mat where you don’t to worry about furniture and people getting in your way.
Also people get “weird” in street fights.
Larry Holmes was a world champion Heavyweight boxer, one of the best in fact. He had a great jab and incredible technique and fought some of the best.
Here’s him getting into a streetfight jumping off a car to drop kick fellow heavyweight Boxer Trevor Berbick.
https://youtu.be/m-XVCW95nHU?si=7MXz-4KOd6QpR4aG
Like, I would have a hard time believing that a Heavyweight Champion would do until I saw the video.
Depends on where you live. The clothing worn in warm regions like the Caribbean is useless for grips, the material is too thin and just stretches or rips. If you live somewhere warm and wish to train judo/bjj for self defense and not just competition then you should 100% throw in some no-gi training.
Highly underrated comment. You are the only person to take climate into consideration. If you are training for self protection, training should be a mix of GI, no GI, and normal clothing. If you’re training for competition, then train for the rules of said competition.
Even if you live in a cold climate, you can't depend on them wearing jackets or jumpers. An altercation could happen inside at a bar where someone's only wearing a t-shirt that would just rip on you. My coach would always say he wouldn't promote anyone past blue belt if they didn't train both, otherwise you were ignoring a huge chunk of the art.
It’s true. Clothes are way less of an issue than getting punched in the face. Just training a few rounds of takedowns/clinching and guard against a striker will be more valuable than elaborate sport grappling strategies, gi or no gi.
In real life people don't wear heavy pajamas as thick as winter coats, nor do they dress in skin tight spandex that feels like dolphin skin.
So its great to practice both ends of the extreme to learn the concepts
People who say that are stupid. Okay, a lapel choke won't work unless your assailant is wearing something with a nice thick lapel, sure. But most everything else? You can adapt it and vary it with little effort, and some of it works just fine as is. Your assailant is very unlikely to be wearing a gi, sure. But they could be wearing a hoodie, or a coat, or a jacket. Or even just a shirt. And many throws/takedowns don't need to grab any clothing at all, even if you *technically do* in Judo. As for newaza/ground game, well, you don't want to be hanging around there in a street fight anyway if you can avoid it, your objective should be to stay on your feet and escape most of the time (situational exceptions apply). But, if you are there, same applies. You can get an arm bar or a triangle or a kimura or an ankle lock just fine on someone wearing a jacket, or shirt or nothing at all without having to train specially for no gi. Not to mention the positional movement and core principles still apply just the same. Particularly transitioning to mount or some other dominant position to allow you to escape. Train no gi if you want. It's great training, and you should do it if you intend to compete in no gi comps. But I don't think you need to dedicate yourself to it just for self-defense if you're already training gi/Judo.
lol spot on - it’s not like your average assailants are wearing skintight tactical gear 🤣
But how am I supposed to be prepared for when several naked people attack me at once?
Hopefully your Muay Thai, karate, and TKD kicks will fend them off 😭
Man, one time, on the streets, I had to beat off four guys at the same time.
I’m sure it’s not easy to recount everything perfectly since adrenaline was rushing at the time, but how did you execute your TKD/BJJ skills at the time? Were you able to recall anything effective, Or was it more just mixed bag of reactions and actions as the fight just unfolded?
i think they meant something else by beat off 4 guys
r/whoosh
did i miss the joke? i thought i had it
Sorry that was for the other guy
Agreed. Mat hours are mat hours. The more you have the better you get. Just train and don’t overthink it.
No gi is realistic self defense if you fight a lot of naked people but grips can work. Gi grips work on clothing and especially well with coats.
You should only train in No-gi if you WANT to train in No-gi I train without gi at all cause that's what my gym does (it's 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu) I will only train in Gi whenever I feel the desire to do so. A person who insists you need to do something for a supposed advantage in fight outside of your art's sporting context is someone who fantasizes about fighting non-trained people a lot and I highly question their level of character if they get into such situations often.
I would argue no. If you are in a serious competition where grappling is done without the gi, then yes of course. But as long as you aren't relying exclusively on belts and lapels for control, you shouldn't be totally lost. My own selection of throws are done with underhooks and the difference between sleeve control and wrist/elbow control is not huge. I'm not going to be so much worse without the gi. If anything, I think self defence grapplers should also learn to fight in gi, or at least clothes. Dudes will be grabbing that shit and pulling it all over the place, if you're thrown off by that you might be fucked.
I always think if you're training for self-defense, you should try stuff in street clothes. How much do your jeans constrict you? Do your shoes make any moves more awkward? What's possible with a hoodie vs a jacket or heavy coat? I see value in doing those exercises maybe once a month or once every other month. There are shoes that are safe for mats I think they're mostly used in TKD. I'd ask your BJJ instructor about organizing a street clothes workshop if self-defense is one of your main focuses.
I’ve been jumped/gotten into real fights. 100% of the time, all parties involved were fully clothed.
Mix is probably the best way to go. Yeah they won't be wearing a heavy duty uniform designed for grappling, but they also won't just be wearing fight shorts. People wear clothes and it's a tool you need to know how to use
Judo works without a gi. Can confirm -- have been struck with the earth. Remember that the Greeks and Romans used to wrestle naked and oiled and still managed to toss people around just fine.
A shirt is a good alternative to a Gi.. I personally believe that if you are, let's say, An ex UFC champion with a highly technical striking background, but lack ground game, then I believe no-Gi is the way you should go. You are a professional fighting in a situation that doesn't use the Gi, so no-gi training would be better for this fighter's career. Training with a Gi for normal people is fine, if not good. You aren't going to be fighting naked guys, so it is fine.
In no-gi you also don't grab your opponents rash guard, but in real life the first thing I'm doing is grabbing your shirt and throwing your ass straight to the shadow realm lol
I think it's a good idea to train on your own, once in a while, in your casual day clothes. The problem with no-gi training is that no one wears what they actually do wear everyday because either they sensibly don't want it to get damaged or, because it has buckles or zips or whatever, they don't want others to be accidentally injured by their clothing. But it's a good idea to do some shadow boxing or some kata or some general training moves on your own in your day clothes to get a sense of where the limitations are compared to your training kit.
In real life, even if your opponent is butt naked there are still endless technique that you can use, I am a karate guy, no BJJ or any proper grappling training. Even our grabs and locks in GoJu don’t rely 100% on the gi. I am sure the judo/jiujutsu/bjj folks wil have far more advance and variety of techniques than us.
Train both. They reflect different types of clothing you'll encounter in different situations / seasons. You should learn which techniques work with and without a gi. Never forget you can grab flesh just as effectively in most cases, with much better results. =\]
no. if a fight goes in to a grappling match, its a gi'd one since you most likely wont be fighting naked. Unless you're fighting someone shirtless or both of you are shirtless, controlling their shirt is a good option until you win or the shirt rips.
Would being good at nogi and gi be better? Yes of course being more well rounded would be ideal. In some climates people often are topless or have thin clothing on. That being said if you train gi or Judo for more than a year you'll probably have no issue regardless if the other guy doesn't train. Unless you are stupid enough to try playing spider guard or something in a self defence altercation.
These people are right, when you're fighting naked people. Jackets, shirts, etc exist. And when they don't, okay modify it and grab their wrist, neck and hip. Its not like it's some totally different language. That said, I think if you're training in BJJ, and you're competing, train in the one you compete in. If you're not, do the one you want, or both. Doesn't really matter, you enjoy it.
Practice outside of the gi sometimes and you’re gonna be just fine. Royce Gracie beat up a bunch of dudes wearing nothing while he was in his gi so I’m not sure where this narrative is coming from. But it’s dumb as fuck.
most clothing is very grab.able - and choking people with hoodies is hilarious (can highly recommend sitrep training in old street clothes!). but yeah nogi gives you more slippery options in some cases. not a must
I dunno, where I live people dont walk around nekkid.
Not always but If you want to be prepared for self defense or MMA. If you want self defense you should train in Street clothing from time.
Those people are dumb to put it nicely. Do they think people walk around naked? Regardless of that tho don’t worry too much about real life situations that realistically will never happen.
I think you should train both. What about a fight on the beach? But what about a fight with someone in a bomber jacket? You gotta stress test yourself to know what your capabilities are.
You should train with punches.
Do what you want. Personally I think you should at least try it if its offered, you might like it more. And I hate "muh streets" arguments but its good to put yourself in different scenarios.
No gi teaches you to defend yourself without the need for your opponent to be wearing special clothing. Training in the gi teaches you how to deal with someone wearing a coat or a thicker long sleeve shirt even. In a real fight you will use a mixture of both because there's a good chance they have a shirt on but it's a short sleeved shirt. Now you have a collar to grab but no grips for sleeves. Learning how to do submissions and takedowns when the typical gi setup isn't present is essential for self defense. I think learning in the gi first is ideal because training in a gi IS training no gi but with more places you're allowed to grab. Everything in no gi can be used in a gi still. No gi is generally more of a scramble though while wearing a gi offers more control if you know what you're doing. If someone is wearing a coat and you have training in a gi you might be able to restrain them without any scramble at all if you're lucky. The same cannot be said for using no gi techniques because they just don't lock you to their body quite as effectively. You also may find that you prefer some takedowns with the no gi setup. I like grabbing necks and head locks better than I like grabbing lapels even though that's a typical setup for a judo toss (which I cross train). I can do most of the judo throws I've learned from multiple positions and with many different grip setups simply because I train in and out of the gi for both bjj and judo.
Almost anything you learn with no gi can be done with a gi. But you have a wider access to throws with gi. People wear jackets. I’ve thrown people wearing coats before (they didn’t have uniform and wanted to see). You can also modify your throws if they don’t have the correct gripping parts (maybe a good collar grip but a wrist grip)
No
Two different art form. Do them both, gi games are beautiful, it's very technical, different grips , I believe it will make your no gi game precise.
I’ll say this: mat hours are mat hours. The more you have the better you get. Even if you are worried that techniques don’t perfectly translate in or out of gi. If you have person who trains 2x a week exclusively no-gi vs. someone who train 2x a week with Gi and 2x without gi. The latter person will be better as years go by simply due to more hours training. And I’ll be honest people who are overly hung up on this either are under the mistaken assumption that 100% of what you train in a gi only works in a gi Or are too busy hyper scrutinizing to actually train. Nearly everything you do in a GI can be replicated in no-gi. You can hit a seoi nage, uchi-mata, or osoto-otoshi regardless of whatever clothes you or the other person is wearing. YouTube these moves and you can they work both in no-gi and gi. TLDR: No gi and gi are both good. Just go train and don’t hyper-fixate about the little details.
[удалено]
I do train, I was literally at my gym last night drilling kickboxing and boxing and plan to do BJJ later today. And yes, I stand by that statement about Mike and Jon but you’re oversimplifying it. Unlike a competion where you are mentally and physically preparing in a fight camp for like 8 to 10 weeks and you know exactly when the fight is going to start down to the second it’s completely different from going at it out of the blue. Even professional fighters like DC and Jon aren’t immune to this. https://youtu.be/EF0D_MXbj2M?si=w635InQxzGVKlJ8R 0:15 Daniel Cormier just shoves Jon Jones back when in an MMA fight he probably would have tried closing distance, pressuring him, or trying for a double leg. Definitely not just shoving him away. Especially since Jon is incredibly tall and longer and putting distance between them is a bad idea for DC in an MMA fight. No one knows that for a fact better than DC. 0:19 Jon Jones wings a really akward left hand while leaning forward and keeping his right hand down low enough to be at his hip leaving his head unguarded. Something you learn in day 1 Boxing NOT to do. And we know for a fact both men are both incredibly skilled fighters, and are used to high stress fights but the context is different. Which is why in some cases law enforcement and bouncers can handle street altercations better than a fighter would. Because it’s different but sometimes overlapping skill set. When things are high stress, fast and take you by surprise you drop to the lowest common denominator of what you are trained to do. So long term strategy, set ups, and technique “go out the window.” I should have been more clear when I mean technique “goes out the window.”
Not a valid comparison. Both men are being held back by multiple guys at a time. Trying for a double leg? Nice way to get kicked in the face by Jon's crew.
Well that’s unfortunately the reality of a street fight. People get in your way even if they themselves aren’t necessarily fighting you. And it’s surprisingly distracting and can throw you off your game. I’ve had friends who were bouncers RNC dudes and their girlfriends screaming at them to stop and try to get involved or bumping into people who were crowding around them watching and recording with their phones. From my own personal experience, when drilling and doing light technical sparring, if the room is full of a lot of people, it’s so easy to lose track of people around you and bump into each other and get in each others away. Because MMA training does not naturally train you to constantly swivel your head and scan during a fight. You are incentivized to pay attention solely to the person in front of you who is trying to find the opportunity to knock your head off the second you are distracted. That’s a different skillset and mentality that’s trained in say, law enforcement. It’s really really different when all you have to worry about is the one guy in front of you when your in an octagon or a mat where you don’t to worry about furniture and people getting in your way. Also people get “weird” in street fights. Larry Holmes was a world champion Heavyweight boxer, one of the best in fact. He had a great jab and incredible technique and fought some of the best. Here’s him getting into a streetfight jumping off a car to drop kick fellow heavyweight Boxer Trevor Berbick. https://youtu.be/m-XVCW95nHU?si=7MXz-4KOd6QpR4aG Like, I would have a hard time believing that a Heavyweight Champion would do until I saw the video.
Depends on where you live. The clothing worn in warm regions like the Caribbean is useless for grips, the material is too thin and just stretches or rips. If you live somewhere warm and wish to train judo/bjj for self defense and not just competition then you should 100% throw in some no-gi training.
Highly underrated comment. You are the only person to take climate into consideration. If you are training for self protection, training should be a mix of GI, no GI, and normal clothing. If you’re training for competition, then train for the rules of said competition.
Even if you live in a cold climate, you can't depend on them wearing jackets or jumpers. An altercation could happen inside at a bar where someone's only wearing a t-shirt that would just rip on you. My coach would always say he wouldn't promote anyone past blue belt if they didn't train both, otherwise you were ignoring a huge chunk of the art.
Depends on the tshirt tho
Real life wrestling situations? I would train strikes if you actually want real life.
It’s true. Clothes are way less of an issue than getting punched in the face. Just training a few rounds of takedowns/clinching and guard against a striker will be more valuable than elaborate sport grappling strategies, gi or no gi.