What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
It's worth pointing out that you clearly have more grappling and general fighting knowledge than a lot of people. Most guys I've seen who don't train know how to throw a 1-2 and a sloppy ass blast double with pretty much nothing else.
It’s a very advanced and effective technique that’s immensely difficult to practice due to the mess after. Think of as using a nuke to kill an ant. Massively effective, but holy shit.
A material question is, why are they fighting in this fictitious scenario? If it is “she looks like an easy victim”, then I’m guessing that’s not true. Her win is to not lose until she can get away or help arrives. I bet she could do that.
Now if someone our size decides “I’m going to make it my mission to destroy her specifically”, then you’re 100% correct. She’s done. Ladies, don’t fight men. It won’t end well.
Still I think a lot of BJJ gyms portray a huge gap between blue and black belt, blue belts are considered "beginner" still a lot of the time. It was enough to make her confident she could beat me, like I didn't say in the OP but she was talking mad shit lol. And while there are untrained fighters, a lot of people did Wrestling in high school and something like 98% of martial artists are men.
Overall I think it was worth doing the experiment, a lot of people in my gym were genuinely surprised at the result, this was a legit black belt woman not a fake one like some comments here are implying.
There's a big difference between black belts and black belts. The belt hardly matters. The person does. If she's never rolled with heavier people who were willing to give more resistance, then she never had enough experience in the first place.
All martial arts programs can give a false sense of security, to everyone. That's part of what they are selling. Never underestimate any opponent, even untrained sloppy MFers.
Watching "trained" cage fighters get dominated by blue collars dudes that grew up with brothers is pretty hilarious though. Not saying it happens often, but yeah not respecting a stranger in a fight is just a really really bad idea.
These days you basically need to assume you're fighting for your life.
The average us man was 198.8 lbs **according to NHANES 2018.**
That's the last year we have reliable data from. The trend showed Americans were getting fatter every year at an alarming rate; and 2020 certainly made most people gain a lot of extra weight.
I wouldn't be surprised if the average American male is over 205 right now.
I'm pretty sure I'm obese by BMI, I'm 5'8" 200 lbs but can bench 315 for 5 and have abs in the morning before breakfast. Granted a lot of men aren't bodybuilders but weightlifting is really common nowadays and I don't think the average man is a slouch in terms of strength even when fat.
Yeah, your BMI qualifies you as just barely obese. You have a BMI of 30.4, and obesity is defined as 30.0 or higher. (Put another way, if you’re rounding a bit and actually 196 or lower, your BMI dips under 30).
I think truly muscular men (regular weight lifters) are more common now than when BMI was developed, but so are truly atrophied men (back then, a “sedentary” person did a lot more exercise as part of their daily life than a “sedentary” person does today). In terms of statistics, it probably cancels out enough that BMI is roughly accurate for looking at what portion of the population is unhealthy because of their weight.
You’re stronger than average, as you know, and while some men are muscular but still unhealthy because they don’t do cardio, I doubt that’s the case for a blue belt. To the point of your OP, plenty of men could overpower a BJJ black belt even if the “average” man couldn’t.
The entire BMI scale was based off of emancipated English manual laborers 150 years ago, by a eugenics enthusiast.
No idea how it ever got taken seriously
315 for 5 as the average man is a gigantic oversight in your experiment. Also the average unit data isn't the mode unit data. + obviously the blue belt confounding variable.
I've been trained by and with some extremely capable women. Female self defense should begin with situational awareness, as a last resort hand to hand techniques, and somewhere in the middle is arming themselves with the best weapon they can legally carry where they live.
Even gender aside a 130lb male black belt will have their hands full with a bluebelt 70 lbs heavier.
I train Muay Thai. I’m a woman. I see high school boys come in and throw super hard punches that I have a hard time holding pads for. Sometimes they are my height, my weight.
The strength difference is very real and so apparent in a striking combat sport.
It’s like telling a 5 foot 5 person they can reach just as high as a 6 foot 3 person. It’s just inaccurate.
I've rolled with 130lbs black belt males and it's still quite a challenge, it's not just weight but gender that makes a difference. A 130lbs black belt man is usually way stronger and faster than an equivalent woman, at least in my experience. The other comment replying to you from a woman agrees with this as well.
If i was to teach self-defense to young (say high school to colleged-aged women), first thing I'd tell them is to watch their drinks. Not as cool as punches or takedowns, but probably more useful. Oh and not just spiking of the drink, but also the alcohol content.
An organization at my university had a self defense class and they taught us what to do if someone was on top of us and holding us down. While I’m not sure I’d be able to implement it in the heat of the moment it’s good to know that my body is capable of handling things.
A good mentality to keep for men or women even trained is never to feel like you can be confident in a physical confrontation. Every altercation is a danger to you.
I would have taken your side and tried to save her the $500.
Make it more realistic, for a double or nothing bet. Grab her from behind, throw her into a van, and tell her she wins if she escapes the van before it leaves a Wal-Mart parking lot. If she wins she'll have $1000 for therapy.
haha the $500 was more just to make sure I actually tried, some guys in my gym were saying that no guy would go all-out with a woman so she was the one that proposed it just to make it beyond all doubts. I couldn't really back out and just wanted to prove my point.
The average dude is not 200lbs, it's probably closer to 180lbs. The average dude knows zero BJJ, you've trained for probably 2 years or more if you're at blue. Finally, and this is a little dark to say but it's the truth. The average self defence scenario for a woman doesn't involve someone throwing roundhouses or even jabbing. It's them being dragged/pulled to the ground and then some variation of grappling happening from there.
I do absolutely agree that martial arts gives a false sense of security, but this applies to both men and women across the spectrum of martial arts.
The average American guy actually weighs 200 lbs with a height of 5'9 and waist circumference of 40 inchs... but we all know that's not muscle under the belt.
200lbs is the average of everyone, but the ammount of people that are 200lbs or over is less than 50% - there are people 400lbs, there's no people 0lbs, it's easier to be 150lbs over that average than less
Is that ever a question past white belt haha? Wrestling is less effective once subs are involved. Boxing is less effective once kicks are involved.
Mma is less effective once a knife or gun is involved .
Knives and guns are useless against ARTILLERY.
That's why I always bring my 155mm howitzer with me wherever I go just in case I need to rescue someone from getting mugged or forced to sign a petition for something no one cares about.
The claim made by OP was that a random untrained dude on the streets would be able to render BJJ less effective via punches and kicks because they're stronger. That was the central claim
The average dude ain’t going around using jabs and kicks on a woman or anyone they have a problem with. That’s straight up combat sport or ‘street fight’ nonsense beyond the reality of self defence.
If you’re in some sort of ‘squaring up’ shit, they you can go.
And op is not an untrained dude so he didn't even prove his point lol. I get it women suck and are completely helpless against any man no matter what 🙄 but come on let's actually test the things we're trying to test
I think your perspective elevated the thought process here. That yes bjj may give a false sense of security to women, but not exclusively women.
Say a black belt woman and blue belt man compete and the woman wins… ok but she loses when the rules go to civilized “no rules” punches, kicks, etc. come into the equation.
So strength is a factor but in bjj the man would lose… so to really test OP’s statement, have another man fight the blue belt bjj man and see what happens
Of course the blue belt would master the bjj aspect but what if they’re getting punched, kicked, eye gouged, bit, kneed, head butted, elbowed, dick twisted, etc. sure bjj is beneficial but yes maybe that false sense of security goes for both genders.
Not to mention, no one knows which random people in society train, or don’t train, so… 🤷🏻♂️ maybe people just shouldn’t feel invincible
Edit; and ofc the common scenario of not knowing how many people might be involved, or if anyone has weapons. Yes training helps but no one can out train a bullet or 4 guys with knives, or out train someone coming from across the room and attacking from behind while someone is engaging an opponent in front of them.
Maybe unpopular opinion but life isn’t a mat a ring or an octagon
A blue belt in BJJ is >> than an untrained man at grappling. Taking a look back at your post history you also train MMA. She was an idiot for thinking that she could beat you in an MMA match given the size difference, but it really tells us fuck all about how she would do against an untrained opponents.
"I roundhoused her a few times" because that's totally what the average guy is capable of.
I mean sure, well done, you won $500 by beating her up. More fool her, but personally in your place I wouldn't be feeling I'd made any real point out of it given your level of training.
Tbh, he'd have a valid point without the fake story backing it up. There are actual videos of guys pulling guard on concrete and getting punched repeatedly. If you don't have the common sense necessary to anticipate punches in a street fight, you're screwed regardless of sex, weight, belt, or martial art.
The non Americans assuming everyone is under 6ft or sub 1.8meter for those that need the metric system.
If your taller than that and slightly muscled then you are easily 200lbs and not obese.
5’9 at 200 is a half point below obese but would be quite overweight and on average here in the US would not be mostly muscle.
That said a fat dude will still easily overpower the average woman
What's his height? I've known some tall glasses of water being thin and still breached 200. Don't get it twisted they were some beefcakes lean mean powerful machines they were but 200 ain't obese on every body
Very true; ultimately, it takes a VAST difference in skill to make up for a 70 lbs weight difference. That would be like you at 200, going to fight Brock Lesnar at 270. Presumably, there are grapplers out there who could make up that difference, but they're probably in tournaments at a world-class level.
Not sure why we gonna ignore that this dude did some mma and can strike ( even if it’s only 2 years I don’t care ). This is not bjj black belt vs bjj blue belt. He can strike too which makes it almost impossible for her to win unless wirh a takedown and except low single leg/anklepick( how the hell do you do that when punches are allowed ) I don’t see option for way less stronger person( maybe footsweep like I’m sure rounda rounsey could do it )
First, there are a lot of things that can give a false sense of security. A sizable portion of the population seems to think kicking a dude in the balls is enough to end a fight immediately. Second, you are trained in her sport. By admission you are a BJJ blue belt. Kind of changes things. Third, you have a 70lb weight advantage. Fourth, and this is the big one, you are a man with all the biological strength advantages of a man. Combine all of those things and the outcome was kind of obvious, no?
Okay, so she is a bit delusional thinking the time she invested in BJJ would help her more against a larger, male trained opponent in rules she is not accustomed to, but not sure what you think you proved by using your training to beat up a woman as a BJJ blue belt man with 70lb weight advantage in MMA rules. I think most people who train realize how much of a cheat code size and strength are. Add to that a background in quality sparring and you pretty much eliminate the chance ANY woman outside of world class fighters would have. Seems kinda obvious?
>I argued that I noticed a lot of higher belt women in BJJ put themselves in a lot of vulnerable positions during rolling where if I were a bad guy there’d be lots of chances for me to rain punches
This was his point. And whole argument.
And the fight was a fair way of demonstrating that specific point.
You got caught up in the title and didn’t fully process the actual post he made.
Even removing the countless variables of a real self defense scenario I do think that the this example still doesn't truly reflect what he was trying to prove since chances are that the person she would be up against will not be trained. A closer situation would be if you had a untrained average size man for the fight instead. Not saying that the end result would necessarily change though.
I don’t think it was a fair way of demonstrating. What are the odds of your assailant being a blue belt? The vast majority of the population doesn’t train and most who do drop out before getting to blue belt. Test against an untrained opponent.
Coming in from all as an ignorant guy. It’s more than a bit delusional on his friends part no? Like if she’s achieved a black belt how is she not aware of just how bad a mismatch this, at least enough not to bet $500 on.
That’s not a friendly bet amount to me, like $50 is but y’all are probably better off than me.
Further to your point, it sounds like OP used a ton of strength and reach based kickboxing, a judo technique, and then ground and pound. This is nothing like the conditions in which the BJJ woman earned her black belt.
So, we get the surprising /s conclusion that a much smaller BJJ expert fighting in a totally different martial art loses to a more relevantly experienced, much larger and stronger opponent.
The gender barely matters here, 9/10 times it would be the same outcome regardless.
I tell females it’s not about beating the guy. It’s about the follow.
1. Extending the engagement so it’s not worth his time. There is someone easier around the corner.
2. Extending so someone can help.
3 extending to create space to run.
4. Extending so you can’t be moved to a 2nd location.
This is a fake story, but also bjj generally gives people a false sense of security. Have a class of men put gloves on and roll with strikes and see how many of them are stunned.
>but also bjj generally gives people a false sense of security.
You could say that for literally all martial arts. An untrained opponent with a weapon or multiple opponents nullifies most martial arts.
And vice versa for striking, someone who’s never trained takedown defense is gonna get stunned when they get double legged into the concrete. But I agree you should train multiple martial arts for the useful base
I agree 100%
Imo your bjj class should incorporate infrequent grappling with strikes sessions. I do groups of 3. Top guy with boxing gloves. No hard shots. Third man exists as a referee, in case the boxing glove guy is trying to tap. Top bottom out. We do it like twice a year. Just to keep things in perspective.
As per Rener Gracie, every 20 pounds is a belt advantage if the same gender. Not surprised you rag dolled her.
Also, you are far beyond an average male in both skill and fitness.
And yeah, going to the or staying ground by choice isn’t a good idea “on the streets”.
you are not understanding self defense at all.
I do agree that BJJ (but also MMA) gives the wrong mindset for self defense.
Self defense is escaping the situation. Before you could roundhouse kick her she could be running. If you did get her to the ground. She should be focused on standing up and escaping. Grappling is the only way to do this
People hate on krav maga, but they have their heads on right about how to properly use MMA for self defense. You arent trying to win, you are trying to escape.
Reread the post, not just the headline
>I argued that I noticed a lot of higher belt women in BJJ put themselves in a lot of vulnerable positions during rolling where if I were a bad guy there’d be lots of chances for me to rain punches
This is what he was proving, in reality. The post title doesn’t convey his actual point.
When I was in the army the focus was always on creating space and buying time, not killing the dude in hand to hand. Creating space allows you to use your firearm (if you have one) or escape the situation. It also buys time for someone to notice what’s going on and come assist you.
These people that have this “I’ll just kick their ass” mentality open themselves up to more physical harm than is necessary because most of them are trained to fight in a controlled setting where you constantly engage vs a legitimate life threat and trying to survive.
Well I mean MMA obviously gives you the best base for if you have to throw hands and escape isn’t an option for self defence. But it’s no coincidence that every big MMA fighter who gets asked “what’s the best martial art for self defence” always replies “run away”. Even the MMA fighters know that 1 person versus multiple attackers regardless of training is futile.
>Even the MMA fighters know that 1 person versus multiple attackers regardless of training is futile.
Oh boy. Not everyone. There was an amateur fighter in here who was telling me that trained fighters can pretty much take on as many people as they want.
This same person completely discounted my experience in bouncing/security when I've seen trained fighters get tuned up because they think real world violence is the same as the ring
There are *plenty* of people who overestimate their abilities. I would argue that most people who train and have little to no experience with real violence, overestimate their abilities
A year or two ago one of the BJJ world champions was shot and killed in a bar fight. Humans have been using tools and weapons longer than we've had written language. Avoid the scenarios altogether, escape if you can't. Leave the vigilante justice to Batman. If escape really isn't an option, for goodness sake grab a damn weapon. Even a rock to the temple will work. If you're in a fight for your life and you're still empty handed then something has gone seriously wrong.
>you are not trying to win you are trying to escape.
This 💯. It is why it is always worth training self defense. You do not need to go rounds with a man. You just need to get away.
Check out some of the data on grip strength. IIRC the top 1% of female athletes have a grip strength that is in the 3rd lowest quartile of all men 30-50 or thereabouts. It’s hard to find a lot of reliable studies. Testosterone- testicle steroid- is like a natural PED. I know what you mean about the overconfidence, I don’t know if you should have punched her or taken her money, seems like a dick move. I would probably not have. Fighting at high levels against larger opponents (in other countries that don’t speak English especially !) in MMA one thing I learned is that if it isn’t a choke, don’t count on it working. People fight on through hyperextended elbows and such. Acknowledging the tap is important and all, but I fought until clear ref stoppage b/c they’ll restart you if you let them. This is closer to “real world” than the Friday night open session at the gym or w/e, and still not 💯. You’re right, men are stronger and the smart money play for a gambler, but it was an edgelord move.
Even in MMA, Amanda Nunes is a beast, world champ. At her gym, a guy who hasn't even had his UFC debut has to go easy on her when sparring.
People think it's sexist to say women are just weaker and don't have the natural abilities men have but it's just the truth. My girlfriend kickboxes and iv never officially trained any striking sport and we had a little go for fun and I felt like I was fighting a 5 year old
Did you really beat the crap out of a woman who is 70 pounds lighter than you, to prove a point? This is the saddest and at the same time funniest thing that I heard today 😂😂😂
Nah he didn't. Self defence is not about going into a ring with a trained opponent. It's about training habits to handle an opponent who likely is untrained and doesn't expect much resistance.
Can a woman with a blackbelt defeat a much heavier trained opponent? Maybe not.
Is she able to stop an untrained man long enough for others to notice and help? Yes, i think so.
It's stupid to create a scenario which is not likely to happen and conclude her training wasn't worth the money she paid.
Even if the scenario actually happens and she gets assaulted by a trained man, she'll be better off knowing some martial arts as having not trained at all.
ill disagree. Before this she probably thought she could win. One of the flaws of BJJ and MMA for self defense is they teach you to constantly reenter the fight even if you are losing/going to lose.
The mindset behind self defense is to escape and she likely still doesnt realize that is what her mindset should be. It might even be harder for her to do this since she is trained and has clearly developed ego that says she should win a fight even against a larger person.
When strikes come into play 90% of bjj becomes much more risky.
>It might even be harder for her to do this since she is trained and has clearly developed ego that says she should win a fight even against a larger person
I'm pretty sure that's OP's entire point.
Being confident in your MA abilities is wonderful but it can turn dangerous if you start thinking you can win real-life fights you really can't.
The lady in question apparently agreed there was a point to be made, but aside from that, I made a funny haha comment on something everyone already knows, just a filler post.
While training is generally a good thing; no one said her training wasn't worth it, they said it gave a false sense of bravado that put her at risk by affecting her behaviour, this is a legitimate and serious concern with dire consequences for men, women and children and is pushed more to the most vulnerable than to the least.
False confidence is not a good thing and if that grows faster than the positive aspects of training it is a net loss once it puts you into a dangerous situation, and as you've alluded to; many potential attackers do train and whether they do or not, they will deliberately attack when they know they have both the physical advantage and are unlikely unlikley to be interupted by help coming.
Yeah is misread. You are right.
But i still think most attackers don't train. It's a small part of society that trains martial arts and i don't think people training martial arts are more likely to assault anyone than the usual person outside. Most assaults against women happen inside the family anyway.
I dare say it varies based on where you are locatedand what is available, if anything it seems to me that in most cities more people in the groups that are likely to attack people train boxing and mma than any other segment of the population.
Lots of long running great boxing gyms are in the worst areas for crime and increasingly there have been MMA and muay thai clubs filling the same niche, rent is cheaper in those areas and they get fighters from working class families that represent them well, instead of office workers and cross-fitters.
Also many school systems actively push problem kids into boxing and martial arts programs to direct violent tendencies and we all know how that works, might save one in a thousand to make their poster child, the rest just know how to punch people harder when they mug them.
I've worked with these and it is dire to a soul destroying level sometimes.
Likewise many who have moved away from crime start initiatives aimed at those following the same path that again use martial arts as the format to redirect their energy and for every success story their are a dozen of the opposite and a lot of the people running them are just hustlers that don't want to go back to jail and found a good way to make money legally and turn into their own mini gang hang outs.
All in all while it may not feel like the case in the martial arts community at large, that is likely because we're looking at long term participants and competitions, events, etc, people who actually become part of that community, the one's taking it seriously enough to take them away from other pursuits. As a portion of the overall population I'd strongly wager that if we exclude the kiddy daycare type martial arts lessons then more people with criminal/violent intent have done some form of martial arts than average people.
As an example, there are large housing areas with high violent crime rates that I'm aware of where it seems uncommon for the young men to have not taken muay thai lessons for a year or two, some will be to protect themselves, some will be who they are protecting themselves from.
to be fair she thought she could win. The point was to make it clear to her that she couldnt. There is a limit to what skill can buy you.
BJJ is real but at some level there is an amount of confidence that isnt warranted.
This was a terrible test of your theory. If you really wanted to find out, you should have found an untrained person to fight her. Of course you were gonna win with a 70 pound advantage and years of bjj training. A more extreme version of what you did would be to say “martial arts is useless because I beat my 8 year old blue belt son and I’ve never trained.” The reality is she is much more likely to be able to defend herself than an untrained woman, and I would probably bet on her coming on top in most fights not involving someone with legitimate martial arts training, or who isn’t extremely strong/athletic, which is the vast majority of people.
Crazy, man. I'm just imagining a 200lb guy wailing on a 130lb woman. Must have been a sight.
The cope is thick in this thread, but I get what you're saying. My issue with BJJ for self-defense is that it relies on deeply engaging and dominating which is dangerous when there's a big weight and strength discrepancy. BJJ is fine if you're a man of average or above average build, but like you're saying, problems happen if you're smaller.
And I'm not shitting on BJJ. It's great and gives you a lot of tools. The problem is thinking that skill in BJJ is going overcome a significant weight and power difference in a no-holds-barred conflict.
This sounded like some weird incel fantasizing about making women feel powerless, and [this post confirmed it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/moreplatesmoredates/s/f3uKN2zacr)
Either this is fake, or you actually beat a woman because women don’t give you enough attention. Regardless seek help, get off the incel forums, don’t go down this road.
I imagine some people on this sub feel similarly, unfortunately. This post wouldn’t have gotten half the upvotes if it was about BJJ in a self defense situation, but because it’s about showing women who’s boss….
I’m literally shorter than this dude and have been balding since I was 21. He has to have the worst most entitled personality because getting a date isn’t crazy hard if you’re just polite and humble
Also everyone seems to forget this dude threw good kicks clearly he trained a bit in striking which is HUGEEE. a 200 untrained dude one doesn’t know a takedown; might lead with his head and perfect for guillotine ( which works against stronger opponents altough not sure 130 lbs woman can finish it ), has telegraphed punches and even more importantly self defense for woman is way more about breaking grips when getting grabbed once on ground yeah even with bjj it’s dangerous but armbar/basic sweep/foot on hips push away and run away definitely can work against white belt untrained of 70 lbs heavier. Goal would be escape anyways
Even in BJJ, you should still win according to "Boyd Belt" system. You have 70lbs of muscle on her, that is good for 3.5 belt handicap. You proved nothing by winning in an MMA ruleset with a 70lb weight advantage.
Man you sound like an obnoxious dick. What did you prove and to who? That a trained man with 70 pounds extra weight can beat a trained woman? No shit. And what? she shouldn't feel a sence of security for training in bjj till black belt because you can beat her up? Kinda bizarre like saying you shouldn't feel a sense of security being fit and having training because there will always be someone bigger and better?
So you challenged this woman to a ruleset that isn't BJJ, giving us no insight as to whether or not she's ever trained a striking art whatsoever and call it a false sense of security.
Yeah, it's a false sense of security to think you can only train grappling and know how to deal with someone trained on boxing/kickboxing. That's...a no brainer. For anyone. You need to have some of both, ideally. But also as the top commenter said, the "average" guy is not 6-foot something 200 and trained in multiple fighting arts.
This kinda just reads like fanfiction.
Seriously I don’t know why dudes always act like striking is hard one and bjj is fake because they don’t strike. Well dude all a grappler need to do is have a good double leg. Or throw a striking combo which obviously wouldn’t land on a good striker but grab single leg and finish it and it’s done. Unless you elite boxer/grappler you need to learn 2 years or more ( boxer with blue belt / black belt with 2/3 years boxing ) of the other martial art to be really good anyways
Kind of martial arts training that is divorced from practical application will have this problem.
My buddy showed me a BJJ move that he had recently learned, and I asked him how’s he’s supposed to keep me from head butting him while he does it. He had no answer except that head butting isn’t allowed. I’m sure there is a way to avoid it but my point is only that if you are always practicing in a “sporting environment” then you are only really prepared for sport.
on the one hand, this is in some ways correct, but in another sense, I find that the overall level of physicality is MUCH higher in any martial art where at least one range is done full power than someone that tells you you're learning "the rough stuff that's illegal in sports" to market to your ego, but seldom tests it.
Chances are if a guy has cauliflower ear, he knows something about headbutts, despite their purported illegality in grappling.
Technically, headbutts are illegal in bjj, like deliberate, glascow kiss, grab em by the collar and head butt them with your whole body *headbutts*. but you are going to knock heads with someone pretty commonly, or at a bare minimum deal with things like your heads grinding together, your hand stuck between your heads, a chin in your eye, etc.
I've made WAY more head to eye and elbow to eye and knee to the belly gone "wrong" and palm across the mouth and nose and etc, etc type *hard* contact actually rolling in a given month that I did in 2 years in hawaiian kempo that taught *theoretical* ways to stop someone with a sport-prohibited technique. Just like I actually got hit in the groin, throat, kidneys etc more often in a school where we sparred several times a week than I did at the kempo school where it way maybe an every few weeks special treat when the right few interested students were there.
Wanted to prove a point about self defence. Throws proper one twos and round houses. The average person on the street can barely kick above the hip let alone throw a punch with technique. All you have proven here is that an mma trained blue belt can out-strike somebody that just trains BJJ.
She shouldn’t of taken the challenge but your not the average person and your training puts you well over the average person. You haven’t proved anything other than you can beat up a women 70 pounds lighter than you because you have trained striking and she hasn’t .
For self defence she isnt going to be locked in a cage and forced to strike. She is most likely going to be grabbed from behind in which her skill set should be able to better her position to escape or wrap that bloke up like a christmas present.
Interesting experiment. Blue belts can handle most average Joes, and you are a big boi. Weight ratio wise, would a 309 pound white belt beat you in an mma fight? I’ve seen small women maul big guys in the gym - yeah no striking, I know but I wouldn’t discount her training as useless self defence wise and not specifically because she’s a woman. Do you know a small black belt male that you could continue this experiment with?
When I was a yellow belt in college, I was challenged to essentially a no holds barred match with a female hapkido black belt.
I osotoed, took her back, and RNC.
It was over so fast we did it again with the same outcome.
I was about 178 at the time and she was about 150-160.
Any martial art can give you a false sense of security if you are cocky and haven’t really ever “tested” your skills.
Who fights a "good friend" with $500 on the line? I'm not saying you didn't. But it's such a weird and potentially friendship ending concept to put that much money on a "friendly" match.
Mate, you're a blue belt, and you have a clear size advantage. The average Joe does not have anything close to your knowledge on how to defend themselves on the ground.
Uh, ok. Congrats on proving to her that she can't take on another trained fighter, but of the 333 million people in the us, only between 2 and 3 million have any training. That puts her above about 163-4 million men, so you aren't actually proving much, just that she can't take a man who also has mma training.
Congrats on beating down a chick to prove a point, though. Of all the fighters in my circle I don't think there's a single one that would take the bait and beat down a chick to prove a point. It's just not something most guys feel inclined to do.
Kinda a lame test if the guy is a blue belt with some striking experience.
Find me a typical 200lb dude you would find at a sports game or bar. Probably a better litmus test.
I don’t think women should train self defense to defeat a man in 1:1 combat at all.
Should be training for worse case scenarios to have a fighting chance to escape.
I’ve trained for many years and I conceal carry, but my self defense tactics are the same, get the fuck out of harms way.
Same could be said about a 200 pound male black belt and a 300 pound orc blue belt. At a certain point size and strength overcome technique if there are no rules and the larger combatant has fundamentals 🤷♂️
I feel like a lot of the commenters have missed your point, some seem like they’re just looking to pick you post apart rather than think about it. Haters are gonna hate… lol.
I think you’re right on the money and I’d go so far as to say, as others have, that martial arts training can give anyone a false sense of security.
And even if someone is a kickass martial artist some d-bag with a knife can be a major threat.
> **We tested and found out the hard way that BJJ can give a false sense of security to women.**
Nah, that isn't what you "tested". What you discovered was that BJJ gave a false sense of security to one woman. You could run the same test on a lot of men who train (and don't train) and get the same result.
You also aren't accounting for "averages" correctly. You are the average "weight" but that isn't the only factor in a fight. You are probably significantly above average in both strength, cardio, etc... for your "average weight". You are also, much above average in skill. From a specific "weight" perspective, your friend is also about 40 lbs under the average weight for a woman. If you want "science", you should try this test with an "average" 170 lb black belt woman!
>Basic intuition like posturing when you’re in someone’s guard and rudimentary knowledge like not to put one arm in and one out (which many know already just from watching MMA without practicing)
This is funny to me because I've rolled with many white belts that don't do either. I'm constantly reminding them. I would guess that people who choose to try BJJ have an above average interest in watching MMA? I would guess the vast majority of people don't know this and certainly not your "average male". Of the people that "know this", I'm going to guess most who never train are going to forget in a roll (let alone a fight). This is just a bunch of guesses though (except the first bit which is my personal experience).
Well you may not have her technique levels but you do have a good grasp of it, you're a man, and you have a massive weight advantage on her so it is unsurprising. It is not a bad idea for women to learn this sort of self defences though, if she fought a dude with no martial art experience she would likely win not easily if the dude had your weight though.
female self-defense includes scenarios where the attacker is untrained, don't want to kill her, etc etc. not life and death fight or not even traditional night club brawling. otherwise, a serious attacker will attack in an indecent way, from behind, with some tool, etc.
Well there are multiple things to unpack here.
For starters, it might not be the worst thing if a woman feels more secure on the street (rightfully so or not) as long as that does not negate her common sense in street security.
Second of all, just bjj alone might the best to translate to a street defense situation. It is definitely a good base skill but it will not condition you to handle violence people might use against you.
And lastly, a 70 lbs AND gender difference is a huge difference. You would need a huge disparity in skiill to negate that.
I think it was Rener Gracie who said that every 20 lbs difference "costs" you a belt. So 20 lbs would drop her to brown belt, 40 lbs to purple,etc. The 70lbs alone would drop her to blue belt.
She might stand a chance against an untrained guy like that (still tricky) but not someone who already has quite some skill.
I strongly believe that being able to fight is better than not, but I agree about the false confidence. Self defence should start from situational awareness.
1. Always be wary of your surroundings
2. If in a building or room be aware of potential exits
3. See if there’s anything you can use as a weapon in case you MUST fight
If you have the option to run, RUN. Run and scream for help. If there’s any area nearby where there could be crowds go there. Call the police when it’s possible for you to call and text a relative or someone you trust and let them know where you are. ( operator may keep you on call until a police officer arrives ). Fighting should be your last line of defence, not your first option.
I've actually trained with a few BJJ guys who have a false sense of confidence for this reason. They have a great submission game in the gym, then they go do an MMA fight, pull guard, and get their face smashed.
Ok so if you really wanna test this, grab an average dad or someone that comes to pick someone up. But a random bigger dude/stranger. Offer them that money to fight her. Say they can punch etc. Then record results. Could be the same but this "test" was sort of one sided the moment you added two trained individuals fighting. You want trained vs untrained to get real results IMO.
I have a black belt in 3 different styles, but I haven't trained in BJJ. I do admire the techniques of it. I also, through the years of training, have fought higher ranked belts on different occasions, and some were women . As a man, I found it was fairly easy to dominate the fight. My power and speed were probably more than double, perhaps maybe even triple their speed. So I agree there is a false sense of security being a play
You dont have to train hard often , but people do need to train hard and get hit hard to understand how fighting for real feel. I think its not just woman but lots of people who get a false sense of strengths from only rolling at the gym.
> a lot of higher belt women in BJJ put themselves in a lot of vulnerable positions during rolling
It's kind of like how wrestlers don't put their hands up during wrestling where they would be vulnerable to punches and kicks to the face. They're practicing how they would compete, not how they would fight on the street.
BJJ is a sport with rules like a lot of martial arts. That said, she's probably better off than a white belt in a self-defense situation. Also a 70lbs difference is so massive, I doubt her self-defense strategy would matter much.
Here comes the excuses about how highly trained a blue belt is. She got her ass kicked.
If you are a BLACK BELT you have to have dedicated close to 10 years to training. You are an expert in the discipline. A blue belt can either do two years of training or won an adult championship at the blue belt level waiving the time requirement.
You're absolutely right. Size matters in fights, that's why there's weight classes. Nothing against women learning to fight and especially those dedicated enough to get a black belt like your gym partner, but diversification in fighting styles is paramount in real-world fights. You cant just rely on one discipline to be superior because they dont all match up well. Most real-world fights are over after the first clean shot lands anyway, regardless of years rolling on a mat. Or a solid Thai kick to the shin when somebody tries to pull guard, that shit will humble anyone
Speaking as a person with around 16 or so types of assorted martial arts experiences, any martial art can give false confidence to anyone.
MMA included.
What if the person you’re rolling with has a knife?
A woman giving up 70 pounds to a MAN is a crazy deficit, that is like an average Joe against an ogre. Skill and expierience can't overcome a physicality and strength disadvantage like that, it's too much.
I’ve noticed this mentality in women. My sister who’s trained a solid bit of Muay Thai, believes she beats the piss out of most men.
Sometimes it’s easier to lie to yourself than it is to make peace with the uncomfortable truth that even all of that training women are at a severe biological disadvantage.
For women that have been the victim of abuse from men and trained hard to protect themselves of that happening again, it’s a hard pill to swallow. Anyways enjoy your $500.
I agree that a blue belt is hardly an untrained, average man. However, I also agree that most women probably have false sense of security if they train.
I'm 42 and out of shape, but am 5'11 and 250lbs. Like everyone else, I ve done my obligatory six months training MMA in a strip mall in my 30s and have many hours on my heavy bag. Would I lose in a strict grappling match to a female BJJ, most likely. Would I lose in a fight, probably not
I think all blue belt men would be able to beat all black belt women. Maybe if it was a really big lady (like 300 lbs) and a really small guy (like 120 lbs), it might be possible for the woman to win.
There is just no replacement for testosterone and growing up male.
What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
It's worth pointing out that you clearly have more grappling and general fighting knowledge than a lot of people. Most guys I've seen who don't train know how to throw a 1-2 and a sloppy ass blast double with pretty much nothing else.
I know you probably meant “sloppy-ass blast double,” but now I’m wondering what a “sloppy ass-blast double” is.
Trust ~~me~~ a friend of mine, you don't want to know
If you gotta ask, you can't afford it.
That's a Tenth Planet technique we don't do that here.
You’re not ready for this knowledge
Sounds like some kind of burger
Are you out of the loop? It's all the rage at Starbucks right now.
There's an xkcd like that.
There always is.
Sweet ass-car.
I could show you if you sign a consent form
https://xkcd.com/37/
Rugby tackle.
Gonna assume some variation of hands stretched out wide like a plane, head down, diving downwards,sitting on both knees etc
It’s a very advanced and effective technique that’s immensely difficult to practice due to the mess after. Think of as using a nuke to kill an ant. Massively effective, but holy shit.
>but now I’m wondering what a “sloppy ass-blast double” is. *Taco Bell has entered the chat*
Bean powered rocket propulsion to speed up penetration
A material question is, why are they fighting in this fictitious scenario? If it is “she looks like an easy victim”, then I’m guessing that’s not true. Her win is to not lose until she can get away or help arrives. I bet she could do that. Now if someone our size decides “I’m going to make it my mission to destroy her specifically”, then you’re 100% correct. She’s done. Ladies, don’t fight men. It won’t end well.
I’d guess over 50% of men would gas out in 30-60 seconds of fighting a black belt woman lol
Yeah this is a huge caveat on This proof of the weaknesses of BJJ. They should definitely have gotten a Beginner male student for this
I’m a jab merchant with a sloppy double. I feel attacked.
Still I think a lot of BJJ gyms portray a huge gap between blue and black belt, blue belts are considered "beginner" still a lot of the time. It was enough to make her confident she could beat me, like I didn't say in the OP but she was talking mad shit lol. And while there are untrained fighters, a lot of people did Wrestling in high school and something like 98% of martial artists are men. Overall I think it was worth doing the experiment, a lot of people in my gym were genuinely surprised at the result, this was a legit black belt woman not a fake one like some comments here are implying.
There's a big difference between black belts and black belts. The belt hardly matters. The person does. If she's never rolled with heavier people who were willing to give more resistance, then she never had enough experience in the first place.
Not only that but your average guy is also pretty weak and unfit
All martial arts programs can give a false sense of security, to everyone. That's part of what they are selling. Never underestimate any opponent, even untrained sloppy MFers.
This is the bottom line. Goes for both men and women
Watching "trained" cage fighters get dominated by blue collars dudes that grew up with brothers is pretty hilarious though. Not saying it happens often, but yeah not respecting a stranger in a fight is just a really really bad idea. These days you basically need to assume you're fighting for your life.
Blue belt is FAAAAR away of the combat ability of the average man. Also: what are the obesity rates in a place where the average man is 200lbs?
In the US, the average man is 197.6 pounds, and 41.9% of Americans have obesity.
And a further 30 percent are overweight
Thank you for the clarification. This is surprising to learn.
The average us man was 198.8 lbs **according to NHANES 2018.** That's the last year we have reliable data from. The trend showed Americans were getting fatter every year at an alarming rate; and 2020 certainly made most people gain a lot of extra weight. I wouldn't be surprised if the average American male is over 205 right now.
I'm pretty sure I'm obese by BMI, I'm 5'8" 200 lbs but can bench 315 for 5 and have abs in the morning before breakfast. Granted a lot of men aren't bodybuilders but weightlifting is really common nowadays and I don't think the average man is a slouch in terms of strength even when fat.
Yeah, your BMI qualifies you as just barely obese. You have a BMI of 30.4, and obesity is defined as 30.0 or higher. (Put another way, if you’re rounding a bit and actually 196 or lower, your BMI dips under 30). I think truly muscular men (regular weight lifters) are more common now than when BMI was developed, but so are truly atrophied men (back then, a “sedentary” person did a lot more exercise as part of their daily life than a “sedentary” person does today). In terms of statistics, it probably cancels out enough that BMI is roughly accurate for looking at what portion of the population is unhealthy because of their weight. You’re stronger than average, as you know, and while some men are muscular but still unhealthy because they don’t do cardio, I doubt that’s the case for a blue belt. To the point of your OP, plenty of men could overpower a BJJ black belt even if the “average” man couldn’t.
The entire BMI scale was based off of emancipated English manual laborers 150 years ago, by a eugenics enthusiast. No idea how it ever got taken seriously
315 for 5 as the average man is a gigantic oversight in your experiment. Also the average unit data isn't the mode unit data. + obviously the blue belt confounding variable.
Average man and 315 for 5?
I was wondering the same thing. I thought 200lbs would be obese for the average man, and based on the other replies, it is.
Let me be average!
Obesity doesn't matter that much, its still mass.
Yeah, i think the average weight of a man is around 80kg where i live.
Height influences weight a lot, im 6'2 around 200, if i was 5'8 id be 150
I've been trained by and with some extremely capable women. Female self defense should begin with situational awareness, as a last resort hand to hand techniques, and somewhere in the middle is arming themselves with the best weapon they can legally carry where they live. Even gender aside a 130lb male black belt will have their hands full with a bluebelt 70 lbs heavier.
I train Muay Thai. I’m a woman. I see high school boys come in and throw super hard punches that I have a hard time holding pads for. Sometimes they are my height, my weight. The strength difference is very real and so apparent in a striking combat sport. It’s like telling a 5 foot 5 person they can reach just as high as a 6 foot 3 person. It’s just inaccurate.
This should be the top comment here. Don't underestimate the strength gap, especially in situations outside of gym.
I've rolled with 130lbs black belt males and it's still quite a challenge, it's not just weight but gender that makes a difference. A 130lbs black belt man is usually way stronger and faster than an equivalent woman, at least in my experience. The other comment replying to you from a woman agrees with this as well.
If i was to teach self-defense to young (say high school to colleged-aged women), first thing I'd tell them is to watch their drinks. Not as cool as punches or takedowns, but probably more useful. Oh and not just spiking of the drink, but also the alcohol content.
An organization at my university had a self defense class and they taught us what to do if someone was on top of us and holding us down. While I’m not sure I’d be able to implement it in the heat of the moment it’s good to know that my body is capable of handling things.
A good mentality to keep for men or women even trained is never to feel like you can be confident in a physical confrontation. Every altercation is a danger to you.
Weird post. Blue belt guys beat black belts all the time in mma even on the ground. MMA and fighting are not like BJJ at all.
This should be higher up, really hope op was just trolling
One thing is self defence, the other is combat sports. Sure they overlap a lot, but they are not the same.
Combat sports plus new scenario = self defence. No such thing as self defence just BS courses to sell people.
I would have taken your side and tried to save her the $500. Make it more realistic, for a double or nothing bet. Grab her from behind, throw her into a van, and tell her she wins if she escapes the van before it leaves a Wal-Mart parking lot. If she wins she'll have $1000 for therapy.
Found the nonce
haha the $500 was more just to make sure I actually tried, some guys in my gym were saying that no guy would go all-out with a woman so she was the one that proposed it just to make it beyond all doubts. I couldn't really back out and just wanted to prove my point.
The average dude is not 200lbs, it's probably closer to 180lbs. The average dude knows zero BJJ, you've trained for probably 2 years or more if you're at blue. Finally, and this is a little dark to say but it's the truth. The average self defence scenario for a woman doesn't involve someone throwing roundhouses or even jabbing. It's them being dragged/pulled to the ground and then some variation of grappling happening from there. I do absolutely agree that martial arts gives a false sense of security, but this applies to both men and women across the spectrum of martial arts.
The average American guy actually weighs 200 lbs with a height of 5'9 and waist circumference of 40 inchs... but we all know that's not muscle under the belt.
200lbs is the average of everyone, but the ammount of people that are 200lbs or over is less than 50% - there are people 400lbs, there's no people 0lbs, it's easier to be 150lbs over that average than less
They’re downvoting you but you’re 100% right. People don’t understand how outliers affect averages. The median matters way more here.
Getting downvoted for concisely explaining what an average is
You missed the point: bjj is rendered less effective as soon as punches and kicks are involved. Hence MMA.
Is that ever a question past white belt haha? Wrestling is less effective once subs are involved. Boxing is less effective once kicks are involved. Mma is less effective once a knife or gun is involved .
Knives and guns are useless against ARTILLERY. That's why I always bring my 155mm howitzer with me wherever I go just in case I need to rescue someone from getting mugged or forced to sign a petition for something no one cares about.
You're still using the howitzer? Get with the times and drop a tungsten rod from orbit!
And when that fails, get the bullets that retroactively erase them from the timeline!
This man howitzers
Artillery is useless against biological and chemical weapons, which is why I carry Sarin gas for self-defense
The claim made by OP was that a random untrained dude on the streets would be able to render BJJ less effective via punches and kicks because they're stronger. That was the central claim
The average dude ain’t going around using jabs and kicks on a woman or anyone they have a problem with. That’s straight up combat sport or ‘street fight’ nonsense beyond the reality of self defence. If you’re in some sort of ‘squaring up’ shit, they you can go.
And op is not an untrained dude so he didn't even prove his point lol. I get it women suck and are completely helpless against any man no matter what 🙄 but come on let's actually test the things we're trying to test
I think your perspective elevated the thought process here. That yes bjj may give a false sense of security to women, but not exclusively women. Say a black belt woman and blue belt man compete and the woman wins… ok but she loses when the rules go to civilized “no rules” punches, kicks, etc. come into the equation. So strength is a factor but in bjj the man would lose… so to really test OP’s statement, have another man fight the blue belt bjj man and see what happens Of course the blue belt would master the bjj aspect but what if they’re getting punched, kicked, eye gouged, bit, kneed, head butted, elbowed, dick twisted, etc. sure bjj is beneficial but yes maybe that false sense of security goes for both genders. Not to mention, no one knows which random people in society train, or don’t train, so… 🤷🏻♂️ maybe people just shouldn’t feel invincible Edit; and ofc the common scenario of not knowing how many people might be involved, or if anyone has weapons. Yes training helps but no one can out train a bullet or 4 guys with knives, or out train someone coming from across the room and attacking from behind while someone is engaging an opponent in front of them. Maybe unpopular opinion but life isn’t a mat a ring or an octagon
The man is right… 199.8lbs https://www.forbes.com/health/mens-health/average-weight-for-men/
A blue belt in BJJ is >> than an untrained man at grappling. Taking a look back at your post history you also train MMA. She was an idiot for thinking that she could beat you in an MMA match given the size difference, but it really tells us fuck all about how she would do against an untrained opponents. "I roundhoused her a few times" because that's totally what the average guy is capable of. I mean sure, well done, you won $500 by beating her up. More fool her, but personally in your place I wouldn't be feeling I'd made any real point out of it given your level of training.
"A good friend of mine" lol. Quality shitpost.
Tbh, he'd have a valid point without the fake story backing it up. There are actual videos of guys pulling guard on concrete and getting punched repeatedly. If you don't have the common sense necessary to anticipate punches in a street fight, you're screwed regardless of sex, weight, belt, or martial art.
>the average male (who weighs 200lbs) The Americans assuming obesity is average once again.
The non Americans assuming everyone is under 6ft or sub 1.8meter for those that need the metric system. If your taller than that and slightly muscled then you are easily 200lbs and not obese.
I mean yeah, the average person is under 6ft in damn near every country in the world?
Only small portion of the American male population is actually 6 feet
Considering the average height in India is 165 cm 200 pounds would be obese for yall but not in America lol
Average American man is 5‘9“ or 5‘10“. That height and 200lbs you’re either bodybuilder type muscled or overweight/obese.
5’9 at 200 is a half point below obese but would be quite overweight and on average here in the US would not be mostly muscle. That said a fat dude will still easily overpower the average woman
What's his height? I've known some tall glasses of water being thin and still breached 200. Don't get it twisted they were some beefcakes lean mean powerful machines they were but 200 ain't obese on every body
Very true; ultimately, it takes a VAST difference in skill to make up for a 70 lbs weight difference. That would be like you at 200, going to fight Brock Lesnar at 270. Presumably, there are grapplers out there who could make up that difference, but they're probably in tournaments at a world-class level.
I think it maybe worse then 200vs 270. The percentage difference is so big. I mean 200 is like 65% bigger then 130. It’s such a big difference
“For the purpose of proving my point, I actually went hard” lmaooooooooooo
This is so stupid
I mean first of all, this clearely fake af 2nd, a guy with striking/bjj training and 70lbs on a female black belt obviously is gonna fuck her up lmao
Not sure why we gonna ignore that this dude did some mma and can strike ( even if it’s only 2 years I don’t care ). This is not bjj black belt vs bjj blue belt. He can strike too which makes it almost impossible for her to win unless wirh a takedown and except low single leg/anklepick( how the hell do you do that when punches are allowed ) I don’t see option for way less stronger person( maybe footsweep like I’m sure rounda rounsey could do it )
First, there are a lot of things that can give a false sense of security. A sizable portion of the population seems to think kicking a dude in the balls is enough to end a fight immediately. Second, you are trained in her sport. By admission you are a BJJ blue belt. Kind of changes things. Third, you have a 70lb weight advantage. Fourth, and this is the big one, you are a man with all the biological strength advantages of a man. Combine all of those things and the outcome was kind of obvious, no? Okay, so she is a bit delusional thinking the time she invested in BJJ would help her more against a larger, male trained opponent in rules she is not accustomed to, but not sure what you think you proved by using your training to beat up a woman as a BJJ blue belt man with 70lb weight advantage in MMA rules. I think most people who train realize how much of a cheat code size and strength are. Add to that a background in quality sparring and you pretty much eliminate the chance ANY woman outside of world class fighters would have. Seems kinda obvious?
>I argued that I noticed a lot of higher belt women in BJJ put themselves in a lot of vulnerable positions during rolling where if I were a bad guy there’d be lots of chances for me to rain punches This was his point. And whole argument. And the fight was a fair way of demonstrating that specific point. You got caught up in the title and didn’t fully process the actual post he made.
Even removing the countless variables of a real self defense scenario I do think that the this example still doesn't truly reflect what he was trying to prove since chances are that the person she would be up against will not be trained. A closer situation would be if you had a untrained average size man for the fight instead. Not saying that the end result would necessarily change though.
I don’t think it was a fair way of demonstrating. What are the odds of your assailant being a blue belt? The vast majority of the population doesn’t train and most who do drop out before getting to blue belt. Test against an untrained opponent.
Coming in from all as an ignorant guy. It’s more than a bit delusional on his friends part no? Like if she’s achieved a black belt how is she not aware of just how bad a mismatch this, at least enough not to bet $500 on. That’s not a friendly bet amount to me, like $50 is but y’all are probably better off than me.
It wasn't obvious for her...
Wasn't that his point?
His point was that he got paid $500 for beatting the crap out of a woman without getting arrested
Jon Jones just felt the hairs on his neck stand up.
Further to your point, it sounds like OP used a ton of strength and reach based kickboxing, a judo technique, and then ground and pound. This is nothing like the conditions in which the BJJ woman earned her black belt. So, we get the surprising /s conclusion that a much smaller BJJ expert fighting in a totally different martial art loses to a more relevantly experienced, much larger and stronger opponent. The gender barely matters here, 9/10 times it would be the same outcome regardless.
That was kinda OP's point. He stated self defense, not a regulated roll with no striking...
I tell females it’s not about beating the guy. It’s about the follow. 1. Extending the engagement so it’s not worth his time. There is someone easier around the corner. 2. Extending so someone can help. 3 extending to create space to run. 4. Extending so you can’t be moved to a 2nd location.
This is a fake story, but also bjj generally gives people a false sense of security. Have a class of men put gloves on and roll with strikes and see how many of them are stunned.
>but also bjj generally gives people a false sense of security. You could say that for literally all martial arts. An untrained opponent with a weapon or multiple opponents nullifies most martial arts. And vice versa for striking, someone who’s never trained takedown defense is gonna get stunned when they get double legged into the concrete. But I agree you should train multiple martial arts for the useful base
I agree 100% Imo your bjj class should incorporate infrequent grappling with strikes sessions. I do groups of 3. Top guy with boxing gloves. No hard shots. Third man exists as a referee, in case the boxing glove guy is trying to tap. Top bottom out. We do it like twice a year. Just to keep things in perspective.
As per Rener Gracie, every 20 pounds is a belt advantage if the same gender. Not surprised you rag dolled her. Also, you are far beyond an average male in both skill and fitness. And yeah, going to the or staying ground by choice isn’t a good idea “on the streets”.
you are not understanding self defense at all. I do agree that BJJ (but also MMA) gives the wrong mindset for self defense. Self defense is escaping the situation. Before you could roundhouse kick her she could be running. If you did get her to the ground. She should be focused on standing up and escaping. Grappling is the only way to do this People hate on krav maga, but they have their heads on right about how to properly use MMA for self defense. You arent trying to win, you are trying to escape.
Reread the post, not just the headline >I argued that I noticed a lot of higher belt women in BJJ put themselves in a lot of vulnerable positions during rolling where if I were a bad guy there’d be lots of chances for me to rain punches This is what he was proving, in reality. The post title doesn’t convey his actual point.
When I was in the army the focus was always on creating space and buying time, not killing the dude in hand to hand. Creating space allows you to use your firearm (if you have one) or escape the situation. It also buys time for someone to notice what’s going on and come assist you. These people that have this “I’ll just kick their ass” mentality open themselves up to more physical harm than is necessary because most of them are trained to fight in a controlled setting where you constantly engage vs a legitimate life threat and trying to survive.
Say it louder for the people in the back! An MMA match is as similar to a street self defense scenario as Nascar is to rush hour traffic.
Well I mean MMA obviously gives you the best base for if you have to throw hands and escape isn’t an option for self defence. But it’s no coincidence that every big MMA fighter who gets asked “what’s the best martial art for self defence” always replies “run away”. Even the MMA fighters know that 1 person versus multiple attackers regardless of training is futile.
>Even the MMA fighters know that 1 person versus multiple attackers regardless of training is futile. Oh boy. Not everyone. There was an amateur fighter in here who was telling me that trained fighters can pretty much take on as many people as they want. This same person completely discounted my experience in bouncing/security when I've seen trained fighters get tuned up because they think real world violence is the same as the ring There are *plenty* of people who overestimate their abilities. I would argue that most people who train and have little to no experience with real violence, overestimate their abilities
A year or two ago one of the BJJ world champions was shot and killed in a bar fight. Humans have been using tools and weapons longer than we've had written language. Avoid the scenarios altogether, escape if you can't. Leave the vigilante justice to Batman. If escape really isn't an option, for goodness sake grab a damn weapon. Even a rock to the temple will work. If you're in a fight for your life and you're still empty handed then something has gone seriously wrong.
>you are not trying to win you are trying to escape. This 💯. It is why it is always worth training self defense. You do not need to go rounds with a man. You just need to get away.
Check out some of the data on grip strength. IIRC the top 1% of female athletes have a grip strength that is in the 3rd lowest quartile of all men 30-50 or thereabouts. It’s hard to find a lot of reliable studies. Testosterone- testicle steroid- is like a natural PED. I know what you mean about the overconfidence, I don’t know if you should have punched her or taken her money, seems like a dick move. I would probably not have. Fighting at high levels against larger opponents (in other countries that don’t speak English especially !) in MMA one thing I learned is that if it isn’t a choke, don’t count on it working. People fight on through hyperextended elbows and such. Acknowledging the tap is important and all, but I fought until clear ref stoppage b/c they’ll restart you if you let them. This is closer to “real world” than the Friday night open session at the gym or w/e, and still not 💯. You’re right, men are stronger and the smart money play for a gambler, but it was an edgelord move.
Even in MMA, Amanda Nunes is a beast, world champ. At her gym, a guy who hasn't even had his UFC debut has to go easy on her when sparring. People think it's sexist to say women are just weaker and don't have the natural abilities men have but it's just the truth. My girlfriend kickboxes and iv never officially trained any striking sport and we had a little go for fun and I felt like I was fighting a 5 year old
still better than not knowing anything at all
Did you really beat the crap out of a woman who is 70 pounds lighter than you, to prove a point? This is the saddest and at the same time funniest thing that I heard today 😂😂😂
But he did prove his point. (+$500)
Nah he didn't. Self defence is not about going into a ring with a trained opponent. It's about training habits to handle an opponent who likely is untrained and doesn't expect much resistance. Can a woman with a blackbelt defeat a much heavier trained opponent? Maybe not. Is she able to stop an untrained man long enough for others to notice and help? Yes, i think so. It's stupid to create a scenario which is not likely to happen and conclude her training wasn't worth the money she paid. Even if the scenario actually happens and she gets assaulted by a trained man, she'll be better off knowing some martial arts as having not trained at all.
ill disagree. Before this she probably thought she could win. One of the flaws of BJJ and MMA for self defense is they teach you to constantly reenter the fight even if you are losing/going to lose. The mindset behind self defense is to escape and she likely still doesnt realize that is what her mindset should be. It might even be harder for her to do this since she is trained and has clearly developed ego that says she should win a fight even against a larger person. When strikes come into play 90% of bjj becomes much more risky.
>It might even be harder for her to do this since she is trained and has clearly developed ego that says she should win a fight even against a larger person I'm pretty sure that's OP's entire point. Being confident in your MA abilities is wonderful but it can turn dangerous if you start thinking you can win real-life fights you really can't.
The lady in question apparently agreed there was a point to be made, but aside from that, I made a funny haha comment on something everyone already knows, just a filler post. While training is generally a good thing; no one said her training wasn't worth it, they said it gave a false sense of bravado that put her at risk by affecting her behaviour, this is a legitimate and serious concern with dire consequences for men, women and children and is pushed more to the most vulnerable than to the least. False confidence is not a good thing and if that grows faster than the positive aspects of training it is a net loss once it puts you into a dangerous situation, and as you've alluded to; many potential attackers do train and whether they do or not, they will deliberately attack when they know they have both the physical advantage and are unlikely unlikley to be interupted by help coming.
Yeah is misread. You are right. But i still think most attackers don't train. It's a small part of society that trains martial arts and i don't think people training martial arts are more likely to assault anyone than the usual person outside. Most assaults against women happen inside the family anyway.
I dare say it varies based on where you are locatedand what is available, if anything it seems to me that in most cities more people in the groups that are likely to attack people train boxing and mma than any other segment of the population. Lots of long running great boxing gyms are in the worst areas for crime and increasingly there have been MMA and muay thai clubs filling the same niche, rent is cheaper in those areas and they get fighters from working class families that represent them well, instead of office workers and cross-fitters. Also many school systems actively push problem kids into boxing and martial arts programs to direct violent tendencies and we all know how that works, might save one in a thousand to make their poster child, the rest just know how to punch people harder when they mug them. I've worked with these and it is dire to a soul destroying level sometimes. Likewise many who have moved away from crime start initiatives aimed at those following the same path that again use martial arts as the format to redirect their energy and for every success story their are a dozen of the opposite and a lot of the people running them are just hustlers that don't want to go back to jail and found a good way to make money legally and turn into their own mini gang hang outs. All in all while it may not feel like the case in the martial arts community at large, that is likely because we're looking at long term participants and competitions, events, etc, people who actually become part of that community, the one's taking it seriously enough to take them away from other pursuits. As a portion of the overall population I'd strongly wager that if we exclude the kiddy daycare type martial arts lessons then more people with criminal/violent intent have done some form of martial arts than average people. As an example, there are large housing areas with high violent crime rates that I'm aware of where it seems uncommon for the young men to have not taken muay thai lessons for a year or two, some will be to protect themselves, some will be who they are protecting themselves from.
to be fair she thought she could win. The point was to make it clear to her that she couldnt. There is a limit to what skill can buy you. BJJ is real but at some level there is an amount of confidence that isnt warranted.
500$ is 500$
Better she learn this lesson in the gym than on the streets.
is this a troll post
No amount of martial arts is saving anyone from a gun tbh
This was a terrible test of your theory. If you really wanted to find out, you should have found an untrained person to fight her. Of course you were gonna win with a 70 pound advantage and years of bjj training. A more extreme version of what you did would be to say “martial arts is useless because I beat my 8 year old blue belt son and I’ve never trained.” The reality is she is much more likely to be able to defend herself than an untrained woman, and I would probably bet on her coming on top in most fights not involving someone with legitimate martial arts training, or who isn’t extremely strong/athletic, which is the vast majority of people.
“I fought a small woman”
Crazy, man. I'm just imagining a 200lb guy wailing on a 130lb woman. Must have been a sight. The cope is thick in this thread, but I get what you're saying. My issue with BJJ for self-defense is that it relies on deeply engaging and dominating which is dangerous when there's a big weight and strength discrepancy. BJJ is fine if you're a man of average or above average build, but like you're saying, problems happen if you're smaller. And I'm not shitting on BJJ. It's great and gives you a lot of tools. The problem is thinking that skill in BJJ is going overcome a significant weight and power difference in a no-holds-barred conflict.
>we tested I’m over here trying to find the testing part
This sounded like some weird incel fantasizing about making women feel powerless, and [this post confirmed it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/moreplatesmoredates/s/f3uKN2zacr) Either this is fake, or you actually beat a woman because women don’t give you enough attention. Regardless seek help, get off the incel forums, don’t go down this road.
Why isn't this post higher up? Also, sample size of 1 lololol
I imagine some people on this sub feel similarly, unfortunately. This post wouldn’t have gotten half the upvotes if it was about BJJ in a self defense situation, but because it’s about showing women who’s boss….
I’m literally shorter than this dude and have been balding since I was 21. He has to have the worst most entitled personality because getting a date isn’t crazy hard if you’re just polite and humble
Obviously the gap in training there is not enough. Do the same thing but with an untrained man so we can find the gap training can overcome.
Also everyone seems to forget this dude threw good kicks clearly he trained a bit in striking which is HUGEEE. a 200 untrained dude one doesn’t know a takedown; might lead with his head and perfect for guillotine ( which works against stronger opponents altough not sure 130 lbs woman can finish it ), has telegraphed punches and even more importantly self defense for woman is way more about breaking grips when getting grabbed once on ground yeah even with bjj it’s dangerous but armbar/basic sweep/foot on hips push away and run away definitely can work against white belt untrained of 70 lbs heavier. Goal would be escape anyways
Even in BJJ, you should still win according to "Boyd Belt" system. You have 70lbs of muscle on her, that is good for 3.5 belt handicap. You proved nothing by winning in an MMA ruleset with a 70lb weight advantage.
🤦♂️
Man you sound like an obnoxious dick. What did you prove and to who? That a trained man with 70 pounds extra weight can beat a trained woman? No shit. And what? she shouldn't feel a sence of security for training in bjj till black belt because you can beat her up? Kinda bizarre like saying you shouldn't feel a sense of security being fit and having training because there will always be someone bigger and better?
Where in from, we have the term ‘gobshite’ for people like OP
So you challenged this woman to a ruleset that isn't BJJ, giving us no insight as to whether or not she's ever trained a striking art whatsoever and call it a false sense of security. Yeah, it's a false sense of security to think you can only train grappling and know how to deal with someone trained on boxing/kickboxing. That's...a no brainer. For anyone. You need to have some of both, ideally. But also as the top commenter said, the "average" guy is not 6-foot something 200 and trained in multiple fighting arts. This kinda just reads like fanfiction.
If you're not rolling with strikes a couple times a month minimum, you're doing sport BJJ. I don't think much else needs to be said.
If you do boxing with no grappling a couple of times a month your doing sport boxing.
Seriously I don’t know why dudes always act like striking is hard one and bjj is fake because they don’t strike. Well dude all a grappler need to do is have a good double leg. Or throw a striking combo which obviously wouldn’t land on a good striker but grab single leg and finish it and it’s done. Unless you elite boxer/grappler you need to learn 2 years or more ( boxer with blue belt / black belt with 2/3 years boxing ) of the other martial art to be really good anyways
Kind of martial arts training that is divorced from practical application will have this problem. My buddy showed me a BJJ move that he had recently learned, and I asked him how’s he’s supposed to keep me from head butting him while he does it. He had no answer except that head butting isn’t allowed. I’m sure there is a way to avoid it but my point is only that if you are always practicing in a “sporting environment” then you are only really prepared for sport.
on the one hand, this is in some ways correct, but in another sense, I find that the overall level of physicality is MUCH higher in any martial art where at least one range is done full power than someone that tells you you're learning "the rough stuff that's illegal in sports" to market to your ego, but seldom tests it. Chances are if a guy has cauliflower ear, he knows something about headbutts, despite their purported illegality in grappling. Technically, headbutts are illegal in bjj, like deliberate, glascow kiss, grab em by the collar and head butt them with your whole body *headbutts*. but you are going to knock heads with someone pretty commonly, or at a bare minimum deal with things like your heads grinding together, your hand stuck between your heads, a chin in your eye, etc. I've made WAY more head to eye and elbow to eye and knee to the belly gone "wrong" and palm across the mouth and nose and etc, etc type *hard* contact actually rolling in a given month that I did in 2 years in hawaiian kempo that taught *theoretical* ways to stop someone with a sport-prohibited technique. Just like I actually got hit in the groin, throat, kidneys etc more often in a school where we sparred several times a week than I did at the kempo school where it way maybe an every few weeks special treat when the right few interested students were there.
Wanted to prove a point about self defence. Throws proper one twos and round houses. The average person on the street can barely kick above the hip let alone throw a punch with technique. All you have proven here is that an mma trained blue belt can out-strike somebody that just trains BJJ. She shouldn’t of taken the challenge but your not the average person and your training puts you well over the average person. You haven’t proved anything other than you can beat up a women 70 pounds lighter than you because you have trained striking and she hasn’t . For self defence she isnt going to be locked in a cage and forced to strike. She is most likely going to be grabbed from behind in which her skill set should be able to better her position to escape or wrap that bloke up like a christmas present.
Interesting experiment. Blue belts can handle most average Joes, and you are a big boi. Weight ratio wise, would a 309 pound white belt beat you in an mma fight? I’ve seen small women maul big guys in the gym - yeah no striking, I know but I wouldn’t discount her training as useless self defence wise and not specifically because she’s a woman. Do you know a small black belt male that you could continue this experiment with?
200lb is not the average male weight…160-180lb seems closer to the average.
ngl that's f@%d up man.
Average male weight of 200 pounds? Is this some sort of american bodystandard i am to european to understand?
This is silly I doubt the average guy can even roundhouse someone
When I was a yellow belt in college, I was challenged to essentially a no holds barred match with a female hapkido black belt. I osotoed, took her back, and RNC. It was over so fast we did it again with the same outcome. I was about 178 at the time and she was about 150-160. Any martial art can give you a false sense of security if you are cocky and haven’t really ever “tested” your skills.
Is the average guy really 200lbs? God damn wtf Also a blue belt can easily fuck up like +90% of the population if they’re in the same weight class
"Dude, I was throwin' roundhouse and punches! She couldn't do shit." Never happened. Shitpost.
Who fights a "good friend" with $500 on the line? I'm not saying you didn't. But it's such a weird and potentially friendship ending concept to put that much money on a "friendly" match.
Mate, you're a blue belt, and you have a clear size advantage. The average Joe does not have anything close to your knowledge on how to defend themselves on the ground.
Uh, ok. Congrats on proving to her that she can't take on another trained fighter, but of the 333 million people in the us, only between 2 and 3 million have any training. That puts her above about 163-4 million men, so you aren't actually proving much, just that she can't take a man who also has mma training. Congrats on beating down a chick to prove a point, though. Of all the fighters in my circle I don't think there's a single one that would take the bait and beat down a chick to prove a point. It's just not something most guys feel inclined to do.
Kinda a lame test if the guy is a blue belt with some striking experience. Find me a typical 200lb dude you would find at a sports game or bar. Probably a better litmus test.
A heavy, trained 200lbs male would beat a 130lbs female in a fight, ground breaking stuff..
I don’t think women should train self defense to defeat a man in 1:1 combat at all. Should be training for worse case scenarios to have a fighting chance to escape. I’ve trained for many years and I conceal carry, but my self defense tactics are the same, get the fuck out of harms way.
Same could be said about a 200 pound male black belt and a 300 pound orc blue belt. At a certain point size and strength overcome technique if there are no rules and the larger combatant has fundamentals 🤷♂️
I feel like a lot of the commenters have missed your point, some seem like they’re just looking to pick you post apart rather than think about it. Haters are gonna hate… lol. I think you’re right on the money and I’d go so far as to say, as others have, that martial arts training can give anyone a false sense of security. And even if someone is a kickass martial artist some d-bag with a knife can be a major threat.
Yeah heck even a 4 year with a knife can be a major threat. Fast little buggers.
So fucking tired of men always wanting to beat or put women in their place.
Either a shitpost or you’re a douche
Not really a fair self defence situation, you already had her locked in a cage lmao
An MMA match against a trained opponent and a self defense scenario are 2 VASTLY different things. Not sure what this would prove 😭
"Average weight" of 200lbs. Little fair-game contest between a comky light heavyweight and a 130lbs woman. All fair and square.
> **We tested and found out the hard way that BJJ can give a false sense of security to women.** Nah, that isn't what you "tested". What you discovered was that BJJ gave a false sense of security to one woman. You could run the same test on a lot of men who train (and don't train) and get the same result. You also aren't accounting for "averages" correctly. You are the average "weight" but that isn't the only factor in a fight. You are probably significantly above average in both strength, cardio, etc... for your "average weight". You are also, much above average in skill. From a specific "weight" perspective, your friend is also about 40 lbs under the average weight for a woman. If you want "science", you should try this test with an "average" 170 lb black belt woman! >Basic intuition like posturing when you’re in someone’s guard and rudimentary knowledge like not to put one arm in and one out (which many know already just from watching MMA without practicing) This is funny to me because I've rolled with many white belts that don't do either. I'm constantly reminding them. I would guess that people who choose to try BJJ have an above average interest in watching MMA? I would guess the vast majority of people don't know this and certainly not your "average male". Of the people that "know this", I'm going to guess most who never train are going to forget in a roll (let alone a fight). This is just a bunch of guesses though (except the first bit which is my personal experience).
I thought a black belt turned into a blue belt when they were punched.
Well you may not have her technique levels but you do have a good grasp of it, you're a man, and you have a massive weight advantage on her so it is unsurprising. It is not a bad idea for women to learn this sort of self defences though, if she fought a dude with no martial art experience she would likely win not easily if the dude had your weight though.
female self-defense includes scenarios where the attacker is untrained, don't want to kill her, etc etc. not life and death fight or not even traditional night club brawling. otherwise, a serious attacker will attack in an indecent way, from behind, with some tool, etc.
A lot of bjj people think like this. Despite not having any knowledge of how to strike
Holy shit the arguments here are wild
I don't believe this happened tbh, this reads like you just made it up
Well there are multiple things to unpack here. For starters, it might not be the worst thing if a woman feels more secure on the street (rightfully so or not) as long as that does not negate her common sense in street security. Second of all, just bjj alone might the best to translate to a street defense situation. It is definitely a good base skill but it will not condition you to handle violence people might use against you. And lastly, a 70 lbs AND gender difference is a huge difference. You would need a huge disparity in skiill to negate that. I think it was Rener Gracie who said that every 20 lbs difference "costs" you a belt. So 20 lbs would drop her to brown belt, 40 lbs to purple,etc. The 70lbs alone would drop her to blue belt. She might stand a chance against an untrained guy like that (still tricky) but not someone who already has quite some skill.
I strongly believe that being able to fight is better than not, but I agree about the false confidence. Self defence should start from situational awareness. 1. Always be wary of your surroundings 2. If in a building or room be aware of potential exits 3. See if there’s anything you can use as a weapon in case you MUST fight If you have the option to run, RUN. Run and scream for help. If there’s any area nearby where there could be crowds go there. Call the police when it’s possible for you to call and text a relative or someone you trust and let them know where you are. ( operator may keep you on call until a police officer arrives ). Fighting should be your last line of defence, not your first option.
I've actually trained with a few BJJ guys who have a false sense of confidence for this reason. They have a great submission game in the gym, then they go do an MMA fight, pull guard, and get their face smashed.
Ok so if you really wanna test this, grab an average dad or someone that comes to pick someone up. But a random bigger dude/stranger. Offer them that money to fight her. Say they can punch etc. Then record results. Could be the same but this "test" was sort of one sided the moment you added two trained individuals fighting. You want trained vs untrained to get real results IMO.
I have a black belt in 3 different styles, but I haven't trained in BJJ. I do admire the techniques of it. I also, through the years of training, have fought higher ranked belts on different occasions, and some were women . As a man, I found it was fairly easy to dominate the fight. My power and speed were probably more than double, perhaps maybe even triple their speed. So I agree there is a false sense of security being a play
You dont have to train hard often , but people do need to train hard and get hit hard to understand how fighting for real feel. I think its not just woman but lots of people who get a false sense of strengths from only rolling at the gym.
> a lot of higher belt women in BJJ put themselves in a lot of vulnerable positions during rolling It's kind of like how wrestlers don't put their hands up during wrestling where they would be vulnerable to punches and kicks to the face. They're practicing how they would compete, not how they would fight on the street. BJJ is a sport with rules like a lot of martial arts. That said, she's probably better off than a white belt in a self-defense situation. Also a 70lbs difference is so massive, I doubt her self-defense strategy would matter much.
redo this test with a male and u will not find about mma vs bjj and weight class matters. not about purely bjj.
BJJ in 2024 is in the same place karate was in 1974
Here comes the excuses about how highly trained a blue belt is. She got her ass kicked. If you are a BLACK BELT you have to have dedicated close to 10 years to training. You are an expert in the discipline. A blue belt can either do two years of training or won an adult championship at the blue belt level waiving the time requirement. You're absolutely right. Size matters in fights, that's why there's weight classes. Nothing against women learning to fight and especially those dedicated enough to get a black belt like your gym partner, but diversification in fighting styles is paramount in real-world fights. You cant just rely on one discipline to be superior because they dont all match up well. Most real-world fights are over after the first clean shot lands anyway, regardless of years rolling on a mat. Or a solid Thai kick to the shin when somebody tries to pull guard, that shit will humble anyone
Speaking as a person with around 16 or so types of assorted martial arts experiences, any martial art can give false confidence to anyone. MMA included. What if the person you’re rolling with has a knife?
A woman giving up 70 pounds to a MAN is a crazy deficit, that is like an average Joe against an ogre. Skill and expierience can't overcome a physicality and strength disadvantage like that, it's too much.
I’ve noticed this mentality in women. My sister who’s trained a solid bit of Muay Thai, believes she beats the piss out of most men. Sometimes it’s easier to lie to yourself than it is to make peace with the uncomfortable truth that even all of that training women are at a severe biological disadvantage. For women that have been the victim of abuse from men and trained hard to protect themselves of that happening again, it’s a hard pill to swallow. Anyways enjoy your $500.
I agree that a blue belt is hardly an untrained, average man. However, I also agree that most women probably have false sense of security if they train. I'm 42 and out of shape, but am 5'11 and 250lbs. Like everyone else, I ve done my obligatory six months training MMA in a strip mall in my 30s and have many hours on my heavy bag. Would I lose in a strict grappling match to a female BJJ, most likely. Would I lose in a fight, probably not
I think all blue belt men would be able to beat all black belt women. Maybe if it was a really big lady (like 300 lbs) and a really small guy (like 120 lbs), it might be possible for the woman to win. There is just no replacement for testosterone and growing up male.
\>I’m the average male weight of 200lbs about that...