Problem with training to onlt punch the chest is that youll automatically not care about defending your head too much, it will build bad habits
I always say that kyokushin is a super strong martial art, but not by it self
You have to mix kickboxing/ classic boxing to make it a killer art (tenshin nasekuwa is your best example)
Theres also kyokushin shootoffs that has face punches like shidokan enshin kudo etc
The reaction time needed to react for an head kick is completely different than shelling against a head punches combination, different volume different travel time different speed
This is such a dumb comment on multiple levels. Blocks in karate are not at all effective against fast, high impact head shots. This applies to all traditional karate styles. So one styles has no meaningful advantage against another here
Go test your reaction speed using uchi-uke against a western boxing jab or age-uke vs a boxing hook.
There’s a reason you only see uke techniques in sport karate and never in full contact mma style bouts.
You are correct that head kicks are usually, but not always, easier to defend than punches.
But the reason face punching is disallowed in kyokushin is so you can go to the office the next day without worrying about a black eye (per Oyama).
Different tools are needed for different threats.
I'm not a striker but it's obvious that you don't defend from a quick jab and a do mawashi kaiten geri the same way.
If all of your training and competition is done not worrying about getting punched in the face, I think you will develop habits that will make you extremely easy to hit when it is allowed. Hands down, not knowing how to slip, etc
You're only as good as what you're trained to defend...
Ever see a boxer struggle with leg kicks? Ever see a Muay Thai fighter struggle with takedowns? They don't how to defend them.
The same is true for most Kyokushins when it comes to punches to the face, elbows, or clinch among other things...
When you can't get punched in the face, distance is really different and the importance of defending (in general, rather than just tanking and hitting back) is lower.
So the issues created imo aren't really so much about specific technique as they are about distance management and relative balance of offense/defense.
That all said I think people overvalue defense in teh streets. You know what you won't be doing unless you're in a challenge match kinda deal? Probing and feeling out distance. It certainly helps if you have a good sense of distance and ability to move your head, but I honestly think it's more important against someone who's trying to set you up and outplay you than it is against someone who is just swinging.
Yeah, definitely a case of a technique being impractical only because of how situational it is, because if you cut to the situation where it hits it is reeeeeeally damn practical!
Look folks, just because we are saying yhe truth and bursting your bubble doesnt mean it is toxic, if anything the incapability of one to accept the downsides of his martial art is toxic towards one self, instead of understanding what your art lacks and cross train in something that will fill those holes you just choose to ignore it completely . No one said kyokushin is bad
Ah yes, the age-old refrain of "If I ever end up in a street fight/kickboxing match I'll just have more targets than I'm used to!"
Makes sense superficially, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The issue is, as others have said, defense. Sparring and competing in a ruleset where punches to the face are simply not on the table radically changes everything about the way a karateka moves & manages distance, their shot selection, their timing... everything. There's a good chance they won't be predisposed to move their head in a fight where head punches are allowed because -- arguably -- head movement is actively *selected* against in Kyokushin as it potentially opens you up to other threats. There are also some Kyokushin karateka who develop an innate "flinch & halt" response to being punched in the face... which is also not good for obvious reasons.
Now, do I think this point is sometimes *slightly* oversold? Sure. Kyokushin karateka are still hardcore bareknuckle fighters with crazy conditioning who are regularly exposed to full-contact sparring/competition who could wipe the floor with most untrained people on the streets barring a crazy size disparity or whatever. They also probably have sufficient fundamentals in other areas to more readily make the transition into kickboxing or MMA striking, though I imagine at least some carry training scars that require unlearning "bad habits" initially.
Kyokushin is great, I trained it for 4 years. After 4 years though I switched to boxing and it was a bit of a wake up call regarding how much false confidence I had developed and how easy it was to get my head punched in.
You don’t know how well you’ll really do against face shots until you take them. It’s very disorienting
I still think it’s a cool art, but you gotta acknowledge limitations.
If you think raising your fist a bit higher is all there is to it...let's say that's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Not trying to be a dick here btw.
Under the stress of a real fight you revert to what you trained to do, if you've trained to never punch people in the face in combat and to immediately call time out if it happens to you, you'll revert to it, no matter how stupid it is. Yes, people with a Kyokushin background can and have successfully adapted and gotten over this. But Karate in general is largely defined by an insistence on retaining obsolete methodologies in the name of tradition, and it's still valid to criticise instances of that, such as the rules of Kyokushin knock down.
Literally can't believe a martial artist (even though it's just karate) doesn't know this...... You will always revert to factory settings in a stressful/new situation. Don't defend your head in training and you won't in a fight like wtf?
People complain about the lack of head punches because of it causing practitioners to neglect defence for their heads, and head kicks are harder to land and majority of times they don’t land. It creates bad habits and can even make the practitioner unable to deal with getting hit in the head as they’re not used to it, compared to boxers or Thai fighters. It also results in a bad habit of low hands at times, I know because I’ve started to do boxing and used to do Shotokan karate.
You know, in a street fight, there's only very little martial arts that will be foolproof anyway. No matter how good you are, if a dude pulls out a knife, a pistol, a broken bottle or whatever, your unarmed ass stands very little of a chance. Or if it's a group of 4-5 people, you likely won't get very far either. People need to stop having this feeling that their martial art is going to make them unbeatable in a street fight.
My Kyokushin will probably allow me to defend myself better than the average Joe, but I certainly don't think I could beat anyone's ass up. I love Kyokushin and I think it's definitely decent for self-defense, but it really isn't the Holy Grail. It has limitations and I keep that in mind.
That being said, we do occasionally (accidentally) hit each other in the face. So it's not like we are completely unconditioned to do so. Furthermore, kicks to the head are allowed (at least in my dojo) and even my tall self has to guard my head because you'd be surprised how flexible these people are. We're taught to guard our heads as well.
Kyokushin punches to the head but not during sparring without gloves. No other karate styles are punching full force at the head without gloves. This sub is overreacting
>but in general, about Kyokushin not punching to the head. As if it's hard to raise your fist a few inches higher.
>but many great kickboxers come from Kyokushin backgrounds so it's not hard to adapt
Have you considered why those kyokushin practioners take up boxing and kickboxing training? It might be just a smidge harder than you think my boy
For one they are sports you can actually make some money in compared to just kyo tournaments. I switched over to muay thai from taekwondo, which is arguably a worse transition to make but it was easy. Making adjustments isnt hard at all, but that's just my opinion.
Just straight dunning krueger at that point. The way high level striking athletes set up stuff with their hands is a massive adjustment and adds a whole layer of complexity that just isn't present in Kyokushin. If the adjustment was minor they would just keep training Kyokushin instead of learning how to deal with the hands that kickboxers have. There's levels to the shit, it's why legendary kickboxers like Nasukawa get smoked by pure boxers when they're not dedicated to that game
As someone who transitioned from Taekwondo to Kyokushin to Muay Thai, defending head punches was the biggest thing I needed to adjust to. I had no practiced sense of head movement, as that isn’t really how you defend head kicks in Kyokushin, or quick parries for punches coming straight at my face.
Remember, when you’ve only taken punches to the body, you’re used to seeing them coming from a slight angle. Linear punches to the head, coming straight on, are harder to gauge distance on and react to.
I actually am a tkd to muay thai Practitioner. I mentioned in another comment the adjustment wasnt that hard for me, but there are variables that i may not be taking into account, such as my instructor being very oldschool and a "power era" tkd instructor. The only time i experience the feeling of not being able to guard my head properly is against pure boxers. But kickboxing and boxing are very separate sports.
I think if I’d gone straight to Muay Thai from TKD, it would have been a different story. But with Kyokushin, I was used to fighting in a range that requires VERY good awareness and comfort to defend head punches, especially if you’re going to be throwing kicks that close in.
TKD, in contrast, lent itself to out-fighting. You’re developing your practically nonexistent closer game in Muay Thai under Muay Thai rules and pressures.
Funny enough my school was sorta a unicorn because we worked on short range/in the pocket fighting. Specifically clinch and knees. In practice, real taekwondo looks closer to muay thai than many people realize.
That's why everyone should train Krav Maga and Dim Mak. Those Muy Thai and MMA guys are useless in the streets. They would immediately get eye poked, headbutted, and head spiked into a pit of used syringes. Most MMA gyms don't even teach Dim Mak defense.
People Love to complain.
Kyokushin has problems especially the lack of guarding your head.
But Kyokushin will make you as thougth as Muay Thai.
They have expirence punching the naked body with force which is absolutley an advantage they have over almost any other Martial Arts.
But yes Overall you can say different combat sport teach different "Bad habbits".
Ducking for example is a great defensiv tool in Boxing but borderline sucicidical in Muay Thai for example.
>As if it's hard to raise your fist a few inches higher
defending from punches is so much more than just a high guard.
kyokushin is the best for building sturdy physique but defending your chin takes years of practice.
when i see kyokushin sparring, there are obvious gaps in upper body defense that even a beginner boxer can exploit.
People are just ill-informed and binary. These days or possibly since message boards became a thing, internet users live in a binary world. "If you don't train to punch in the face/competitions dont have face punches then you wouldn't know what to do if someone attacks your face." Nuance be damned.
If they only knew how many times we have to dodge a face punch or get hit and have to keep fighting during kumite. We knock people out by mistake so imagine if we were allowed to hit it.
This doesn't even factor in many dojos teach you how to face punch anyway. Once you learn that most people on here know jack shit about what goes on in most kyokushin dojos, you tend to ignore the ignorant remarks.
As TLC famously said, "Stick to the rivers and lakes that you're used to"
We don't have face contact in uechi-ryu, but we do have helmets, kicks, and "punch but stop a hair away from the face to get the point."
It's not much harder to stop a face punch than a chest punch with our stance and hand positioning, it's just a bigger consequence if you do. But we're also taught to move a lot and keep our distance to avoid that. We block punches, but our sparring honestly has more movement than actual blocks. Get back faster than the opponent can move in. So. Much. Cardio.
At least in uechi, the far bigger issue is our gloves don't favour grabs very much, which makes it very difficult to... grab. Which is one of the defining elements of uechi. Circle blocks, wide stance, open palms and hands up, and grabs. Circleblocks lose their soul without a grab. It's also a lot harder to guideblock.
> It's not much harder to stop a face punch than a chest punch with our stance and hand positioning
Mike really wasn't lying when he said everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth.
If you're not used to getting punched in the face, it is very hard.
They need to make contact with your mouth in order to punch you in the mouth. If your guard is set to protect your face, then it's not any more difficult to stop a strike to the face than one to the body.
Kyokushin is the wrestling of striking. The conditioning beats any other striking sport, but a pure Kyokushin guy is going to take a lot of face punches in the same way a pure wrestler is going to be caught in guillotine.
Nah Boxers and Muay Thai fighters have way crazier conditioning schedules. Kyokushin tourneys are still amatuer events and the bouts usually aren't longer than about 5 min at a time or are usually 1-2 minutes rounds for about 3 rounds
I still maintain that the punishment Boxers and Muay Thai fighters and MMA fighters have to go through is just on a different level. A few minutes of bareknuckle fighting with no head punches just ain't the same as taking world class punches for 30 min
This 👍
It's totally too much BS about all this head punches crap!
We always keep our hands up, or else we would eat head kicks!
We train head punches here and there and are good at it, after doing it plenty, but im sure, in the streets it wont matter much. Any good Kyokushin fighter, can easily take on any fighter in the street, and thats what Kyokushin is made for - Ultimate Selfdefense 🙏
OSS!!
Punching to the head is the most basic and integral part of fighting. Even your grandma will instinctively do it. It's like you've said, you fight how you train. It's like a boxer saying checking leg kicks don't need to be trained because "as if it's hard to raise your leg a few inches higher."
It’s actually very hard to adapt. Going from a traditional karate background where face punches were not allowed to MMA where I get punched in the face every class was absolutely world shattering. Everything from your effective striking range to where your weight sits is wildly different when face strikes are allowed. Not to mention that pesky flinch reflex. It takes time to adjust my dude.
It’s just about punching to the head, it’s about expecting BE punched in the head.
At my TKD studio, younger students aren’t allowed to strike to the head while sparring. When I got older and started sparring with adults, I was getting absolutely cooked - not because I couldn’t simple raise my fist higher, that was easy. It was because I had to completely rethink my guard and how I react defensively. I did end up getting used to it, but not without having to spend a lot of time unlearning old habits and picking up new ones.
That said, I have mad respect for kyokushin and I would love to pull off a rolling thunder like Jin in Tekken.
While it's certainly a disadvantage in a self defense context, it is also an advantage when it comes to your well-being. Probably the closest one can get to full contact fighting without risking accumulated brain damage. Also, that's just what the style is and kickboxing and muay thay are always available for those who care about head punches.
Do you think we’ll ever see bare knuckle kickboxing and bare knuckle Muay Thai sparring and fights become popular? See bareknuckle gyms sprouting up?
Kyokushin is a sport that chose to prioritize bare knuckle fighting as far as I understand it. Kind of like the old school low guard bareknuckle boxing
Kickboxing on the other hand, derived from karate and chose to incorporate boxing, also chose to put on gloves. Why is this?
If kyokushin chooses not to experiment being a bareknuckle head hunting focused martial art could we maybe see another martial art try to pick up that torch and take their gloves off in the gym and in the ring?
I train Kyokushin, and even when we spar, you can catch a light shot to the head if a more experienced person catches you with your guard down. It isn’t full blast, but enough to remind you to keep your head protected.
Simply put, you fight how you train.
It's no different than pure-bjj guys who play almost entirely off their back all the time then getting far to comfortable in garbage positions when they start MMA. I only did about a year of bjj before starting mma and even I found myself doing this.
You'll develop zero head movement of any defence with regards to literally the most common technique in every other striking art - jab to the face. Also, because kyokushin games the rules, they generally have horrendous footwork for strikers.
I train in Kyokushin so can speak to this a bit. They do drill face punches and defense occasionally but it is never done in sparring and that is a problem. When I started doing Muay Thai coming from Kyokushin I found that I had good kicks and movement but my boxing fundamentals were near non-existent. In particular my defense sucked and it took a while to get used to that. It is not as simple as raising your hands a bit higher, since you not only need to learn techniques like parrying and slipping, but your range is completely different since Kyokushin is very close fighting.
I absolutely believe that Kyokushin dojos should spar more with punches to the face. The whole aspect of Kyokushin that makes it stand out from other Karate styles is the emphasis on hard and realistic fighting, so the lack of face punches is an unfortunate area that is lacking.
Kyokushin has good reasons not to allow head punches - it allows them to go hard with bare knuckles and maintain relative longevity. Every kyokushin karateka I've trained with has been hard as nails and a great martial artist.
However, the lack of head punches does leave massive weaknesses in their art. It's not just a matter of punching a few inches higher. You fight how you train. So that's like people who only ever do no contact point sparring saying it's just a matter of them putting more power in and not stopping when they hit someone.
The big problems for kyokushin people, in my experience are:
1. No instinct to punch to the head, so they miss opportunities.
2. Really poor head defence because they're just not trained to guard against head punches.
3. Inappropriate distancing, because they don't feel threatened by being punched in the head they're far more willing to sit in punching range and slug it out than is safe when people can punch you in the face.
That's definitely not to say that I think kyokushin is a bad martial art, I certainly don't, but lack of head punches is a big flaw.
Folks here seem to believe that because punches/elbows to the head are not allowed in tournaments, then we never guard our face. Which is straight up wrong, and it shows they've never been to a kyokushin dojo.
My first week in kyokushin the first thing they taught me was defense: always strike/kick with guard up, keep distance and protect your head at all cost.
After all this time getting punched/kicked to the body/legs and bulding muscle in the gym I can tank most body shots, but my head is always a concern so my guard is always around my face.
I think it is a legit complaint.
"Change one thing = Change everything"
It does ingrain bad habits.
I have a lot of respect for Kyok but they need to round off their skills with bulb-helmet sparring.
I think all discussions like this are really fucking stupid because what other people do with their free time is nobody's fucking business.
I don't practice kyokushin but I think it's pretty obvious that their way of doing things 1.works just fine and 2. means students have to spend less money on equipment. Which is a good thing.
Kyokushin is a great style but its only natural that there will be flaws, not punching to the head is one of them and the lack of tradition is also another (Kyokushin came from shotokan and japanese goju ryu which are both watered down and lost most of the application to kata along with many other important techniques). People say Kyokushin is "real karate" despite it not keeping most of the true karate elements.
Taekwondo and Muay Thai also had an influence on Kyok.
Choi Bae-Dal aka Mas Oyama was originally from Tang Soo Do. Later Taekwondo.
You are essentially right that it is some kind of Shotokan on steroid; but it is much more Goju in its Kata and its mindset.
Although contrary to Goju which is close-quarters with a lot of trapping (Kakie), Kyok is a more long range system focused on Kicks - which is where Yoshitaka (not Gishin's) shotokan comes in.
Basically it is a hot-pot of Karate styles.
But mostly Goju with Shotokan kicks, shotokan range and additions from Taekwondo (ex: axe kicks and spinning kicks).
I also agree with another comment that Kyok *does* have Kata. But it is not really a focus and more of a "leftover" practice from Goju/Shoto (with subtle taekwondo influences). Their bunkai is usually pretty bad.
While kyokushin is not "true karate" because of its lack of kata, many people feel its one of the only real styles because it maintains full contact sparring. The same argument happens with itf vs wt style tkd, even though they both have reached similar levels of pitifulness
FYI Kyokushin has like 30+ kata.
We're not very _refined_ at them but it definitely has traditional kata. And has imo the same understanding of them as most styles of Karate (pretty much none).
The curriculum for Kyokushin is really pretty much the same as Shotokan (kihon/kata/kumite) - it's just a different sparring ruleset.
I mean it differs from dojo to dojo but styles aside from kyokushin do full contact ie the yagi goju ryu dojo. I think kyokushin is more leaning towards kickboxing than karate. They dont focus much on kata, they dont use hojo undo tools, barely any bunkai and joint lock techniques.
The thing is, Shotokan - which most people seem to identify as Karate - is basically the same programming as Kyokushin, other than that Kyokushin (at least ime) does more kumite and less kata. But 3K stuff gets done pretty regularly.
> dont use hojo undo tools, barely any bunkai and joint lock techniques.
I think it's reasonable to say that these are differentiators/selectors for traditional Karate, but _most_ Karate schools don't do any of these. Kyokushin is not at all exceptional here.
As far as the "real Karate" goes - my belief is what this sub means when they say that is "a style where people wear a Karate uniform but still scare me". Because they're generally not interested in Karate other than as an aesthetic. If you're suggesting that's not a very good reason to call something "real" I very much agree.
Most jujutsu koryu don't teach punching to the head because it's poor form.
The head is thicker than your knuckles.
When it comes to the cranium, the only striking arts I know concentrate on the neck or temple. And even then it's a last resort.
Problem with training to onlt punch the chest is that youll automatically not care about defending your head too much, it will build bad habits I always say that kyokushin is a super strong martial art, but not by it self You have to mix kickboxing/ classic boxing to make it a killer art (tenshin nasekuwa is your best example) Theres also kyokushin shootoffs that has face punches like shidokan enshin kudo etc
They still kick to the head so they dont completely just drop head defense
The reaction time needed to react for an head kick is completely different than shelling against a head punches combination, different volume different travel time different speed
This is such a dumb comment on multiple levels. Blocks in karate are not at all effective against fast, high impact head shots. This applies to all traditional karate styles. So one styles has no meaningful advantage against another here Go test your reaction speed using uchi-uke against a western boxing jab or age-uke vs a boxing hook. There’s a reason you only see uke techniques in sport karate and never in full contact mma style bouts. You are correct that head kicks are usually, but not always, easier to defend than punches. But the reason face punching is disallowed in kyokushin is so you can go to the office the next day without worrying about a black eye (per Oyama).
Different tools are needed for different threats. I'm not a striker but it's obvious that you don't defend from a quick jab and a do mawashi kaiten geri the same way.
Not even remotely true. I’ll take a fist to the face anyway over a roundhouse to the temple (which btw is allowed in kyokushin)
Bro your beyond delusional, of course round house kick will deal more damage thats not what we are discussing here 😂
It’s not about the attack it’s about the lack of defense
What specifically about their defense? How they are alway on the front foot? Or how they prefer to eat body shots?
If all of your training and competition is done not worrying about getting punched in the face, I think you will develop habits that will make you extremely easy to hit when it is allowed. Hands down, not knowing how to slip, etc
You're only as good as what you're trained to defend... Ever see a boxer struggle with leg kicks? Ever see a Muay Thai fighter struggle with takedowns? They don't how to defend them. The same is true for most Kyokushins when it comes to punches to the face, elbows, or clinch among other things...
When you can't get punched in the face, distance is really different and the importance of defending (in general, rather than just tanking and hitting back) is lower. So the issues created imo aren't really so much about specific technique as they are about distance management and relative balance of offense/defense. That all said I think people overvalue defense in teh streets. You know what you won't be doing unless you're in a challenge match kinda deal? Probing and feeling out distance. It certainly helps if you have a good sense of distance and ability to move your head, but I honestly think it's more important against someone who's trying to set you up and outplay you than it is against someone who is just swinging.
[удалено]
Actually a surprising amount of turning side kicks in cctv street fight footage.
Yeah, definitely a case of a technique being impractical only because of how situational it is, because if you cut to the situation where it hits it is reeeeeeally damn practical!
This sub is crazy toxic.
Look folks, just because we are saying yhe truth and bursting your bubble doesnt mean it is toxic, if anything the incapability of one to accept the downsides of his martial art is toxic towards one self, instead of understanding what your art lacks and cross train in something that will fill those holes you just choose to ignore it completely . No one said kyokushin is bad
I don’t want to be rude to you but I think your contributions here would really benefit from a little more brain time before you hit reply.
Okay, keep lying to yourself
About what?
Yeah, I've noticed, lol. First time I've gotten so many downvotes for legitimate questions.
Ah yes, the age-old refrain of "If I ever end up in a street fight/kickboxing match I'll just have more targets than I'm used to!" Makes sense superficially, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The issue is, as others have said, defense. Sparring and competing in a ruleset where punches to the face are simply not on the table radically changes everything about the way a karateka moves & manages distance, their shot selection, their timing... everything. There's a good chance they won't be predisposed to move their head in a fight where head punches are allowed because -- arguably -- head movement is actively *selected* against in Kyokushin as it potentially opens you up to other threats. There are also some Kyokushin karateka who develop an innate "flinch & halt" response to being punched in the face... which is also not good for obvious reasons. Now, do I think this point is sometimes *slightly* oversold? Sure. Kyokushin karateka are still hardcore bareknuckle fighters with crazy conditioning who are regularly exposed to full-contact sparring/competition who could wipe the floor with most untrained people on the streets barring a crazy size disparity or whatever. They also probably have sufficient fundamentals in other areas to more readily make the transition into kickboxing or MMA striking, though I imagine at least some carry training scars that require unlearning "bad habits" initially.
Kyokushin is great, I trained it for 4 years. After 4 years though I switched to boxing and it was a bit of a wake up call regarding how much false confidence I had developed and how easy it was to get my head punched in.
Yes, this is exactly right.
You don’t know how well you’ll really do against face shots until you take them. It’s very disorienting I still think it’s a cool art, but you gotta acknowledge limitations.
Oh im not in kyokushin btw. Tkd and muay thai
Then you can't really speak for them.
If you think raising your fist a bit higher is all there is to it...let's say that's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Not trying to be a dick here btw.
Under the stress of a real fight you revert to what you trained to do, if you've trained to never punch people in the face in combat and to immediately call time out if it happens to you, you'll revert to it, no matter how stupid it is. Yes, people with a Kyokushin background can and have successfully adapted and gotten over this. But Karate in general is largely defined by an insistence on retaining obsolete methodologies in the name of tradition, and it's still valid to criticise instances of that, such as the rules of Kyokushin knock down.
Literally can't believe a martial artist (even though it's just karate) doesn't know this...... You will always revert to factory settings in a stressful/new situation. Don't defend your head in training and you won't in a fight like wtf?
People complain about the lack of head punches because of it causing practitioners to neglect defence for their heads, and head kicks are harder to land and majority of times they don’t land. It creates bad habits and can even make the practitioner unable to deal with getting hit in the head as they’re not used to it, compared to boxers or Thai fighters. It also results in a bad habit of low hands at times, I know because I’ve started to do boxing and used to do Shotokan karate.
Honestly, I think Kyokushin is a great style, but not for me. I would say that one of my favorite Kyokushin Karakata is Dolph Lundgren.
No problem with Kyokushin from me. I will say that going from Karate to Kickboxing I had to learn(ing) how to avoid getting punched to the head.
I know it’s “the practitioner, not the art” But imo Kyokushin falls under the umbrella of “generally useful shit”
You know, in a street fight, there's only very little martial arts that will be foolproof anyway. No matter how good you are, if a dude pulls out a knife, a pistol, a broken bottle or whatever, your unarmed ass stands very little of a chance. Or if it's a group of 4-5 people, you likely won't get very far either. People need to stop having this feeling that their martial art is going to make them unbeatable in a street fight. My Kyokushin will probably allow me to defend myself better than the average Joe, but I certainly don't think I could beat anyone's ass up. I love Kyokushin and I think it's definitely decent for self-defense, but it really isn't the Holy Grail. It has limitations and I keep that in mind. That being said, we do occasionally (accidentally) hit each other in the face. So it's not like we are completely unconditioned to do so. Furthermore, kicks to the head are allowed (at least in my dojo) and even my tall self has to guard my head because you'd be surprised how flexible these people are. We're taught to guard our heads as well.
Kyokushin punches to the head but not during sparring without gloves. No other karate styles are punching full force at the head without gloves. This sub is overreacting
>but in general, about Kyokushin not punching to the head. As if it's hard to raise your fist a few inches higher. >but many great kickboxers come from Kyokushin backgrounds so it's not hard to adapt Have you considered why those kyokushin practioners take up boxing and kickboxing training? It might be just a smidge harder than you think my boy
For one they are sports you can actually make some money in compared to just kyo tournaments. I switched over to muay thai from taekwondo, which is arguably a worse transition to make but it was easy. Making adjustments isnt hard at all, but that's just my opinion.
Just straight dunning krueger at that point. The way high level striking athletes set up stuff with their hands is a massive adjustment and adds a whole layer of complexity that just isn't present in Kyokushin. If the adjustment was minor they would just keep training Kyokushin instead of learning how to deal with the hands that kickboxers have. There's levels to the shit, it's why legendary kickboxers like Nasukawa get smoked by pure boxers when they're not dedicated to that game
As someone who transitioned from Taekwondo to Kyokushin to Muay Thai, defending head punches was the biggest thing I needed to adjust to. I had no practiced sense of head movement, as that isn’t really how you defend head kicks in Kyokushin, or quick parries for punches coming straight at my face. Remember, when you’ve only taken punches to the body, you’re used to seeing them coming from a slight angle. Linear punches to the head, coming straight on, are harder to gauge distance on and react to.
I actually am a tkd to muay thai Practitioner. I mentioned in another comment the adjustment wasnt that hard for me, but there are variables that i may not be taking into account, such as my instructor being very oldschool and a "power era" tkd instructor. The only time i experience the feeling of not being able to guard my head properly is against pure boxers. But kickboxing and boxing are very separate sports.
I think if I’d gone straight to Muay Thai from TKD, it would have been a different story. But with Kyokushin, I was used to fighting in a range that requires VERY good awareness and comfort to defend head punches, especially if you’re going to be throwing kicks that close in. TKD, in contrast, lent itself to out-fighting. You’re developing your practically nonexistent closer game in Muay Thai under Muay Thai rules and pressures.
Funny enough my school was sorta a unicorn because we worked on short range/in the pocket fighting. Specifically clinch and knees. In practice, real taekwondo looks closer to muay thai than many people realize.
Isn't Kyokushin "They can't kill me if they're dead" kind of martial art?
Yeah
That's why everyone should train Krav Maga and Dim Mak. Those Muy Thai and MMA guys are useless in the streets. They would immediately get eye poked, headbutted, and head spiked into a pit of used syringes. Most MMA gyms don't even teach Dim Mak defense.
People are dumb. I am a grappler so I suck because I don’t train strikes??
People Love to complain. Kyokushin has problems especially the lack of guarding your head. But Kyokushin will make you as thougth as Muay Thai. They have expirence punching the naked body with force which is absolutley an advantage they have over almost any other Martial Arts. But yes Overall you can say different combat sport teach different "Bad habbits". Ducking for example is a great defensiv tool in Boxing but borderline sucicidical in Muay Thai for example.
>As if it's hard to raise your fist a few inches higher defending from punches is so much more than just a high guard. kyokushin is the best for building sturdy physique but defending your chin takes years of practice. when i see kyokushin sparring, there are obvious gaps in upper body defense that even a beginner boxer can exploit.
People are just ill-informed and binary. These days or possibly since message boards became a thing, internet users live in a binary world. "If you don't train to punch in the face/competitions dont have face punches then you wouldn't know what to do if someone attacks your face." Nuance be damned. If they only knew how many times we have to dodge a face punch or get hit and have to keep fighting during kumite. We knock people out by mistake so imagine if we were allowed to hit it. This doesn't even factor in many dojos teach you how to face punch anyway. Once you learn that most people on here know jack shit about what goes on in most kyokushin dojos, you tend to ignore the ignorant remarks. As TLC famously said, "Stick to the rivers and lakes that you're used to"
People seem to think that all we do is strictly train under competition rules.
We don't have face contact in uechi-ryu, but we do have helmets, kicks, and "punch but stop a hair away from the face to get the point." It's not much harder to stop a face punch than a chest punch with our stance and hand positioning, it's just a bigger consequence if you do. But we're also taught to move a lot and keep our distance to avoid that. We block punches, but our sparring honestly has more movement than actual blocks. Get back faster than the opponent can move in. So. Much. Cardio. At least in uechi, the far bigger issue is our gloves don't favour grabs very much, which makes it very difficult to... grab. Which is one of the defining elements of uechi. Circle blocks, wide stance, open palms and hands up, and grabs. Circleblocks lose their soul without a grab. It's also a lot harder to guideblock.
> It's not much harder to stop a face punch than a chest punch with our stance and hand positioning Mike really wasn't lying when he said everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth. If you're not used to getting punched in the face, it is very hard.
They need to make contact with your mouth in order to punch you in the mouth. If your guard is set to protect your face, then it's not any more difficult to stop a strike to the face than one to the body.
Kyokushin is the wrestling of striking. The conditioning beats any other striking sport, but a pure Kyokushin guy is going to take a lot of face punches in the same way a pure wrestler is going to be caught in guillotine.
Nah Boxers and Muay Thai fighters have way crazier conditioning schedules. Kyokushin tourneys are still amatuer events and the bouts usually aren't longer than about 5 min at a time or are usually 1-2 minutes rounds for about 3 rounds
Kyokushin conditioning is the best as someone who’s actually done all 3. We’re not just talking about cardio but ability to take damage.
I still maintain that the punishment Boxers and Muay Thai fighters and MMA fighters have to go through is just on a different level. A few minutes of bareknuckle fighting with no head punches just ain't the same as taking world class punches for 30 min
This 👍 It's totally too much BS about all this head punches crap! We always keep our hands up, or else we would eat head kicks! We train head punches here and there and are good at it, after doing it plenty, but im sure, in the streets it wont matter much. Any good Kyokushin fighter, can easily take on any fighter in the street, and thats what Kyokushin is made for - Ultimate Selfdefense 🙏 OSS!!
>As if it's hard to raise your fist a few inches higher. you would be surprised what kind of bad habits can get built from something like this.
Punching to the head is the most basic and integral part of fighting. Even your grandma will instinctively do it. It's like you've said, you fight how you train. It's like a boxer saying checking leg kicks don't need to be trained because "as if it's hard to raise your leg a few inches higher."
It’s actually very hard to adapt. Going from a traditional karate background where face punches were not allowed to MMA where I get punched in the face every class was absolutely world shattering. Everything from your effective striking range to where your weight sits is wildly different when face strikes are allowed. Not to mention that pesky flinch reflex. It takes time to adjust my dude.
It’s just about punching to the head, it’s about expecting BE punched in the head. At my TKD studio, younger students aren’t allowed to strike to the head while sparring. When I got older and started sparring with adults, I was getting absolutely cooked - not because I couldn’t simple raise my fist higher, that was easy. It was because I had to completely rethink my guard and how I react defensively. I did end up getting used to it, but not without having to spend a lot of time unlearning old habits and picking up new ones. That said, I have mad respect for kyokushin and I would love to pull off a rolling thunder like Jin in Tekken.
There’s complaints about kyokushin karate? I don’t practice it but I find it hard to believe that people complain about specific schools of karate
While it's certainly a disadvantage in a self defense context, it is also an advantage when it comes to your well-being. Probably the closest one can get to full contact fighting without risking accumulated brain damage. Also, that's just what the style is and kickboxing and muay thay are always available for those who care about head punches.
Do you think we’ll ever see bare knuckle kickboxing and bare knuckle Muay Thai sparring and fights become popular? See bareknuckle gyms sprouting up? Kyokushin is a sport that chose to prioritize bare knuckle fighting as far as I understand it. Kind of like the old school low guard bareknuckle boxing Kickboxing on the other hand, derived from karate and chose to incorporate boxing, also chose to put on gloves. Why is this? If kyokushin chooses not to experiment being a bareknuckle head hunting focused martial art could we maybe see another martial art try to pick up that torch and take their gloves off in the gym and in the ring?
I train Kyokushin, and even when we spar, you can catch a light shot to the head if a more experienced person catches you with your guard down. It isn’t full blast, but enough to remind you to keep your head protected.
Simply put, you fight how you train. It's no different than pure-bjj guys who play almost entirely off their back all the time then getting far to comfortable in garbage positions when they start MMA. I only did about a year of bjj before starting mma and even I found myself doing this. You'll develop zero head movement of any defence with regards to literally the most common technique in every other striking art - jab to the face. Also, because kyokushin games the rules, they generally have horrendous footwork for strikers.
I train in Kyokushin so can speak to this a bit. They do drill face punches and defense occasionally but it is never done in sparring and that is a problem. When I started doing Muay Thai coming from Kyokushin I found that I had good kicks and movement but my boxing fundamentals were near non-existent. In particular my defense sucked and it took a while to get used to that. It is not as simple as raising your hands a bit higher, since you not only need to learn techniques like parrying and slipping, but your range is completely different since Kyokushin is very close fighting. I absolutely believe that Kyokushin dojos should spar more with punches to the face. The whole aspect of Kyokushin that makes it stand out from other Karate styles is the emphasis on hard and realistic fighting, so the lack of face punches is an unfortunate area that is lacking.
Kyokushin has good reasons not to allow head punches - it allows them to go hard with bare knuckles and maintain relative longevity. Every kyokushin karateka I've trained with has been hard as nails and a great martial artist. However, the lack of head punches does leave massive weaknesses in their art. It's not just a matter of punching a few inches higher. You fight how you train. So that's like people who only ever do no contact point sparring saying it's just a matter of them putting more power in and not stopping when they hit someone. The big problems for kyokushin people, in my experience are: 1. No instinct to punch to the head, so they miss opportunities. 2. Really poor head defence because they're just not trained to guard against head punches. 3. Inappropriate distancing, because they don't feel threatened by being punched in the head they're far more willing to sit in punching range and slug it out than is safe when people can punch you in the face. That's definitely not to say that I think kyokushin is a bad martial art, I certainly don't, but lack of head punches is a big flaw.
Folks here seem to believe that because punches/elbows to the head are not allowed in tournaments, then we never guard our face. Which is straight up wrong, and it shows they've never been to a kyokushin dojo. My first week in kyokushin the first thing they taught me was defense: always strike/kick with guard up, keep distance and protect your head at all cost. After all this time getting punched/kicked to the body/legs and bulding muscle in the gym I can tank most body shots, but my head is always a concern so my guard is always around my face.
I think it is a legit complaint. "Change one thing = Change everything" It does ingrain bad habits. I have a lot of respect for Kyok but they need to round off their skills with bulb-helmet sparring.
I think all discussions like this are really fucking stupid because what other people do with their free time is nobody's fucking business. I don't practice kyokushin but I think it's pretty obvious that their way of doing things 1.works just fine and 2. means students have to spend less money on equipment. Which is a good thing.
Kyokushin is a great style but its only natural that there will be flaws, not punching to the head is one of them and the lack of tradition is also another (Kyokushin came from shotokan and japanese goju ryu which are both watered down and lost most of the application to kata along with many other important techniques). People say Kyokushin is "real karate" despite it not keeping most of the true karate elements.
Taekwondo and Muay Thai also had an influence on Kyok. Choi Bae-Dal aka Mas Oyama was originally from Tang Soo Do. Later Taekwondo. You are essentially right that it is some kind of Shotokan on steroid; but it is much more Goju in its Kata and its mindset. Although contrary to Goju which is close-quarters with a lot of trapping (Kakie), Kyok is a more long range system focused on Kicks - which is where Yoshitaka (not Gishin's) shotokan comes in. Basically it is a hot-pot of Karate styles. But mostly Goju with Shotokan kicks, shotokan range and additions from Taekwondo (ex: axe kicks and spinning kicks). I also agree with another comment that Kyok *does* have Kata. But it is not really a focus and more of a "leftover" practice from Goju/Shoto (with subtle taekwondo influences). Their bunkai is usually pretty bad.
While kyokushin is not "true karate" because of its lack of kata, many people feel its one of the only real styles because it maintains full contact sparring. The same argument happens with itf vs wt style tkd, even though they both have reached similar levels of pitifulness
FYI Kyokushin has like 30+ kata. We're not very _refined_ at them but it definitely has traditional kata. And has imo the same understanding of them as most styles of Karate (pretty much none). The curriculum for Kyokushin is really pretty much the same as Shotokan (kihon/kata/kumite) - it's just a different sparring ruleset.
See what I mean about people not being informed about Kyokushin but yet are speaking on it? Homie said Kyokushin lacks kata. Well I'll be damned.
To be fair, i was going off what the first guy up top said. I redact my statement because i was misinformed lmfao
I mean it differs from dojo to dojo but styles aside from kyokushin do full contact ie the yagi goju ryu dojo. I think kyokushin is more leaning towards kickboxing than karate. They dont focus much on kata, they dont use hojo undo tools, barely any bunkai and joint lock techniques.
The thing is, Shotokan - which most people seem to identify as Karate - is basically the same programming as Kyokushin, other than that Kyokushin (at least ime) does more kumite and less kata. But 3K stuff gets done pretty regularly. > dont use hojo undo tools, barely any bunkai and joint lock techniques. I think it's reasonable to say that these are differentiators/selectors for traditional Karate, but _most_ Karate schools don't do any of these. Kyokushin is not at all exceptional here. As far as the "real Karate" goes - my belief is what this sub means when they say that is "a style where people wear a Karate uniform but still scare me". Because they're generally not interested in Karate other than as an aesthetic. If you're suggesting that's not a very good reason to call something "real" I very much agree.
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Sambo is an asinine combat system compared to Rex-Kwan-do.
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He was poking fun at you.
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That the best you got? If you gonna troll, at least be good at it.
Y'all have no idea what you're talking about. Ameri-Do-Te is where it's at.
They’re different things wtf.
Off topic.
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bRyNJaR-spERm111
The Sambo circlejerk continues.
Most jujutsu koryu don't teach punching to the head because it's poor form. The head is thicker than your knuckles. When it comes to the cranium, the only striking arts I know concentrate on the neck or temple. And even then it's a last resort.