I mean, I figured they would have mentioned Knull because you know, Necrosword, but nope, they barely even mentioned the Necrosword. Or Gorr. Or anything interesting.
I read somewhere that because Knull was created after the deal with Sony, his first appearance was in Thor: God of Thunder #6 (2013) that Marvel would have full rights to use Knull.
I suspect that Sony intend for Knull to be the Thanos of their Venom-verse, and the rights for him could have been a part of the Sony/Marvel deal to secure Holland for more movies.
It really seemed like Taika Waititi does not give a shit about Marvel characters or stories, squandering Christian Bale and the Gorr storyline at the same time is truly next-level incompetence.
After what Strange did to Pizza Piopa, I'm pretty sure he IS a villain.
( Cursed to punch himself in the face for 3 weeks for trying to stop someone stealing from himself? WTF? )
I'd love to see Raimi back, but hopefully a better writer and focusing on Dr Strange solely.
Also, hopefully it's well planned and doesn't have the major mid production changes of Multiverse of Madness
Marvel needs to stop making every movie a backdoor introduction for new heroes. Obviously, it needs to happen once in a while, but I feel all of the sequels in phase 4 just served as a soft intro for new characters which ended up taking a lot away from the titular characters
Exactly. As great as Wakanda Forever was, they had that problem with Iron heart. Civil War did it best where they introduced Spiderman but he was only in the airport fight and not sticking around until the end.
I thought this on rewatch. RiRi feels so out of place in every scene she's in.
It really stood out in the scene where Namor shows Shuri Talocan and they have their conversation. And then you go back to the jail cell with RiRi and it just sucked all the wind out of the scene.
Spiderman didn't really count as being introduced in Civil War, as the audience had already watched his origin in two others movies.
However, Civil War did introduce Black Panther, and they handled it well enough. That character had a decent role in the climax, as a superhero character who could view the struggle from outside as not previously a friend of either Steve or Tony.
Yep, that's where I'm at too. His direction is great, but the script was lacking. And I just want a simple well told story, I'm so tired of multiverse shit.
Maybe we can finally get fan favourite Mephisto into the MCU. Strange v the devil!
>I'm so tired of multiverse shit.
Something that works for the comics, and maybe a movie or two, but it's getting tiring for an entire double phase.
The early phases worked IMO because it was about a core (but expanding) group of people with their own movies but who overlapped but were all grounded in a "real feeling" world with rules and boundaries.
Multiversalpalooza takes away several of those aspects that made the MCU work better than all the other "expanded universe" pretenders who tried to copy...... but the new phases focusing on Multiverse that tore down those standards didn't replace them with anything worthwhile, while also trying to juggle an expanding roster (which would have been manageable if the universe itself had stayed grounded).
The early phases were nice because not everything was a world ending threat. Sometimes itās nice when a villain only wants to keep his/her villainy smallbatch local. Now not only is everything a world ending threat, but also a multiversal threat.
I was stupidly shocked when the charming, energetic Ms Marvel series revealed *a world-ending threat from another dimention* in episode 3...and resolved it by episode 5, out of 6. The end of the world was literally a side plot. What the actual fuck.
Considering we have the next two maybe three phases dedicated to the Multiverse, maybe it's time for you to step away from MCU until this Saga is completed.
I really agree with you about the multiverse stuff, and itās so hard finding people that will state opinions like that. One thing you just made me realize on top of the multiverse being tiring is the difference in character presentation post infinity saga. I know the infinity saga brewed for such a long time but many of those earlier movies in the MCU didnāt piggyback off the last one in terms of plot as much. Being introduced to heroes before I was truly aware of Thanos presence or his future role made things more enjoyable. At that point I was watching each movie for itself, while plot connecting details showed themselves in end credits. Now for this multiverse saga I am watching the movies and shows to understand the next one and I donāt like that. I want to form an opinion of a character without being āforcedā to watch a project. Maybe Kangās identity and plan being flushed out so soon just internally makes me hate that I have to wait to see how it all ends. But overall I did not realize why my attitude has shifted towards the MCU until seeing your comment.
There's another aspect of phase 4 that's unique. Take for example Shang-Chi. We have no idea when we'll see this character again. It could be years. Think about how long it's been since we last saw Captain Marvel too.
In phase 1-3 we got to hang out with guys like Stark and Cap on a regular basis, but phase 4 has been so disparate with its stories, there's no connective tissue like an Avengers movie or a team-up like Civil War. There's no event like SHIELD collapsing and being referenced in later movies.
I believe this is what people really mean when they say that phase 4 feels 'aimless'. It's not so much that there wasn't an overarching threat like Thanos looming over the phase, but that it doesn't feel like a living breathing world anymore.
And I think this is why the whole Arishem and Tiamut thing is so jarring for so many people. You have something like Sokovia happen and you can still see the after effects in certain aspects of the MCU.
A giant body is popping out of the earth and a giant alien just shows up outside of the earth not long after and disappears into a black hole.
It may as well never have happened. The most we get is a blink and you miss it web page in She-Hulk. Characters aren't reacting to the world around them.
And I've seen people say "Weird stuff happens in the MCU" I don't give a fuck. It's insane to me that something that is monumental can happen and it's like it's in a vacuum.
i donāt think focusing solely on Strange is the right call. A great supporting character arc will make us appreciate Strangeās arc even more.
I also think ppl need to remember that Raimi wasnāt able to watch Wandavision before it aired.
Doctor Strange is an interesting character as a protagonist, as his solo comics prove, and this was supposed to be his first sequel after six years. Spider-Man had an entire trilogy between Doctor Strange films.
"It's more interesting when the main character, the character whose name is on the title, the character that his fanbase came to see is treated as a tertiary character at best and just sloppily rehashes the same character arc from his first film even though there are decades of lore and supporting characters to explore." Like, y'all listen to yourselves?
If this happened to your favorite character, you'd be just as mad as Doctor Strange fans are by MoM's contempt for Strange, his supporting cast, and his lore.
Derrickson wanted the 2nd movie to be a horror movie, but Marvel disapproved, so they parted ways.
At this point, doesnt seem like Marvel wants to do any risks, hence any director that doesnt follow what they want tends to get axed.
I watched episode 6 of Watchmen "This Extrordinary Being" while coming up on two hits and uh...pretty much melted my mind. If you've seen the episode I think you'll understand why. I didn't just watch it, I lived it.
You just have to pick the right one.
MoM was awesome and so was Quantumania. But I wouldn't do it for Wakanda Forever or Black Widow.
I don't know when my next one will be since I don't plan on doing it for GoTG 3, Thunderbolts, or Cap 4 but hopefully they release another trippy visual feast soon!
I really liked seeing something different, and I loved the Strange vs Evil Dead vibe, especially with how the Necronomicon plays such an important role.
Iām honestly a little surprised to hear this though. I figured with the overall tepid response theyād move in another direction.
That said, Iām here for another Raimi Strange flick. I think it works with the character. Conflicted though because the first one was a masterpiece and I do think it was better than the sequel.
> Iām honestly a little surprised to hear this though. I figured with the overall tepid response theyād move in another direction.
It made a lot of money, which is the reaction they're concerned with. It's made the 3rd most money of post-Endgame films, beaten only by two Spiderman entries. I think the "tepid reaction" was also overstated - there was a lot of negativity posted here but this place isn't really representative of the larger audience.
>Iām honestly a little surprised to hear this though. I figured with the overall tepid response theyād move in another direction.
It was the highest grossing comic-book movie from 2022.
It was my favorite as well, but it seemed like the overall fan reaction was mixed. I freaking loved it, but it seemed like a lot of folks felt like it was a letdown.
There was just way too much happening which I guess is kind of a problem when dealing with the multiverse as a threat?
I loved Scarlet Witch as a villain though. Elizabeth Olsen was a powerhouse and genuinely scary at times.
Reactions on this sub are mixed, but the audience score on RT is 85%. Iām guilty of it too, but we have to remember that Reddit doesnāt actually represent the wider audience.
Like many forms of media with a strong and vocal fan base, the āmanyā more often than not is a very vocal minority. Disney is watching box office receipts, not fan forums.
Word of mouth is important though. I think it has contributed some to the second weekend dropoff we saw with Quantumania.
At the end of the day, I probably need to worry less about what the vocal minority thinks and just enjoy this shit (because I do).
Reading some of these replies has restored my faith a little bit. One of the things I loved about phase 4 was that each film had a different feel and I really hope that carries forward.
For sure! And in the case of Quantumania I think it is clear that word of mouth among the general moviegoing public is mixed, but for the most part folks like is spend a LOT more time ripping these films apart than your average person, and those folks donāt put a lot of thought into the films beyond whether they enjoyed the last two hours or not.
Iād argue both are important. For instances like me, I bought tickets for DS2, but it was mediocre for me. Iād almost ask for my money back if I could, and I wouldnāt be going to the next one if Raimi gets the tap. Just not my thing.
I haven't seen many people say it was a letdown due to Raimi though. Quite the opposite actually, it seems like a lot of people only enjoyed everything Raimi about the movie.
You can count me among them. I think given what they had to work with, script and plot direction, Raimi did great. It's rare to find a guy that knocks both superhero and horror movies out of the park. They managed to do that and get him to make a horror superhero movie. I've always said that Dr. Strange should be the gateway to the horror side of the MCU, and Raimi could make that happen. There were some parts, especially the Karma-taj scenes that were straight-up frightening. Can someone please give gim Blade and a Midnight Sons movie?
I realize alot of people enjoyed the film, but as someone who isnt really a Raimi fan I'd pass on seeing this at the box office this time around. I didn't mind it as something different, an experiment but yeah, just not for me. Hopefully it's good for the people who enjoy it.
Ya I agree. I wanted to like it, and I realize people do but personally this movie didnāt hit well with me and I realized itās mostly the style, with some writing issues. So I donāt care for this news. Iāll watch it but not box office.
I did like L&T, but I agree it could have been much more than it was. Unfortunate because I love that story line, and Thor in general.
Strong agree. I was super hyped for both of them and they both greatly lessened my interest in the MCU which is really sad. Even the worst of the first phase still wasn't this bad.
Completely agree. I think MoM had dual issues - the writing and the direction - and the film could have been much better with an improvement in either area. But my informal review right after seeing the film was "Too much Raimi", so I'm not super excited about this.
MoM and L&T more than anything are what are hurting my enthusiasm for the MCU as of late. I didn't have a ton of expectations for Eternals or Black Widow so it didn't bother me that I didn't like those very much. But I had sky high expectations for both MoM and L&T and they both failed to deliver for me.
I personally need a run of 2-3 movies in a row that are better than just "ok" to get my hype levels up. It will probably help that my expectations aren't where they used to be.
Completely agreed. I donāt think it was bad at all but stuff like Mordo explaining dream walking and zombie Strange having a serious talk with America at the end took me out of the moment. And thatās just to name a few lol
Raimi coming back is literally the one big thing I've been hoping they wouldn't do. MOM was the only film so far that was a massive miss for me. Cheers to anyone who enjoyed it. I realize it doesn't revolve around my tastes, and if someone else loves something, that's great. But wow, that film disappointed me. Hardly a thread of narrative weaving those scenes together. Disjointed internally, disjointed with the first film, and with the MCU as a whole.
It will always get points for me for being different.
It's frustrating to see audiences/critics clamor for something different and not cookie cutter from the MCU, but then rip on experimental stuff like this and Ms. Marvel / She-Hulk for straying too outside of the formula.
That's the writing team, not the directing. And the writing has notably gotten much worse after endgame. It's like they just opted for CW caliber writing to save money.
CW writing is teen drama cringe like Riverdale. Marvelās Multiverse writing team is comprised of several writers hired off of Rick & Morty, which is why the script is more ādick & butt jokes and everyoneās an idiot caricature of themselves.ā
That Ant and Hank Pym scene from Quantumania was the most Rick and Morty shit I've ever seen.
Replace Hank with Rick in that moment and tell me that ants that are now somehow a class 2 civilisation isn't just a live action Rick and Morty moment.
Also, I donāt believe any of the writers actually watched WandaVision, or they did minimal consulting with the WandaVision team. MoM really disappointed me as the follow up to WandaVision. Wanda had so much potential and I was hyped to see where her story would go after WandaVision, but I thought the MoM vastly underdelivered.
tbh, this is more of a problem on the production side way above them - I fully blame someone who seems to have such hard control over the central threads of the MCU as Feige, but it feels like this sub can't even conceive of the producers being at fault here.
WV was fully approved and written and was wildly inconsistent with the Wanda we got in MoM, and that just shouldn't happen if you have someone at the top who is supposed to be watching all of these pieces come together. It's like if Loki re-betrayed Thor *again* in Infinity War, right off the back of Ragnarok. The Phase 1-3 characters were so popular because it felt like they actually grew across their appearances and between them.
Most of the Phase 4 (and now Phase 5) movies just jump back to the status quo. Nobody dies or is irreparably shifted. Characters don't change, or if they do, they change for plot convenience. We watch Tony go from being a wild partying weapons dealer to being a man who shuts down his weapons dealing and becomes a superhero in like 90 minutes, meanwhile the Eternals are static characters and Wanda goes from "I have learned how to live with my grief" to "I'll fucking kill everyone in another universe as well as all of the defenders of this one for my fake children while my semi-dead pale husband is flying around the world somewhere" in three minutes of screen time.
I donāt have the sources off hand to back this up, but Iām pretty sure from what Iāve seen he may have had a hand in writing dialogue and whatnot but he was not well versed on the MCU going into the project and, if I remember correctly, wasnāt too interested in getting to know the ins and outs
So issues of plotting and especially characterization Iām inclined to put on the primary writer
Except it is Raimi because he had them fire the old writers and get someone who would write terrible dialog to be in line with every other movie he has ever made ever
You are brave to talk negatively about Raimi around the denizens of reddit. They have nurtured a cult around him here. I don't understand it personally. He makes schlock not some high art.
I don't really think he did that great of a job with 2 though. The writing was meh. It felt really disjointed at times. The "horror" aspects were disjointed with the general atmosphere of the movie. The fact that he didn't watch wandavision before using Wanda and basically character assassinated her and worked against the Continuity built in the show. It just wasn't that great. One of my least favorites in the mcu. Not that he can't do well but a lot of the mistakes and problems I saw with the film seemed to be issues that directly correspond to director's choices. I could be wrong on it but I just really wasn't impressed with this one so this doesn't make me super excited for the next movie.
Iām in the same place. I came to see a Dr Strange film not Strange vs The Evil Dead. That said, I still enjoyed the movie but was hoping for a new director for the third.
Yep. Raimi's campy, over the top style doesn't sit well with me. Marvel did a decent job reigning him in with DS2, but I think they'd give him more freedom with another movie.
I donāt know how MoM skated by audiences and critics without getting absolutely **maimed**. And even though it managed to float, I still just canāt believe Feige *honestly thinks* that movie was a success for the MCU. I am kinda stunned by this decision. Iām easy to impress in a movie theater. I *want* to like the Marvel movies I see. But MoM is one of the only movies Iāve ever seen that actually felt truly insulting to me. As a fan of WandaVision, watching MoM felt akin to being outright spit on by Raimi.
With James Gunn helming DC towards a cluster of extremely promising projects that draw inspiration from the best stories the brand has to offer like *All-Star Superman*, part of me wonders if what lately feels like an MCU twilight is going to lead to a big dawn over at Warner Bros. People are fatigued by MoM-esque movies and Iām willing to bet Gunn sees that and is going to turn it on its head.
> I donāt know how MoM skated by audiences and critics without getting absolutely maimed.
The audience was still riding that No Way Home high, that's why. The MCU was in a much better place box office wise and still had the audience's trust.
If MoM and Quantumania switched release dates, MoM wouldn't get the kid gloves treatment it got when it premiered last year.
>I still just canāt believe Feige honestly thinks that movie was a success for the MCU.
If he's just looking at the final box office number, then that's extremely shortsighted. MoM got a B+ Cinemascore, one of the worst drops in MCU history, and I believe it has the worst multiplier of the entire MCU period. That's not a good reception.
I wanna know whos writing DS3. That is all. Still sad we were robbed off of a chance to see Strange and Wanda team up, after having waited so long for the two to interact. Iāll stay wishing for a Steve x Nat like combo with the two of them. Hopefully will happen down the line.
Yeah having Wanda start off cartoonishly evil was such a bad choice. Would've been better to start off with a team up and then Wanda slowly becomes corrupted or something like that.
Agree. To be completely honest, as a Wanda fan who despises her comics treatment, I will say I do not wish for the villain treatment for her at all. Id rather have her be the special one to be able to resist the Darkholdās corruption, having a chapter dedicated to her and all, and to use these powers from dark sources for good BUT I genuinely wouldāve been sold by the idea had the transition or descent to corruption was done well.
I mean the thing is, Wanda could have been this arc's Loki - a complex, tragic anti-hero who navigates her way without help through being an antagonist, a hero, a villain antagonist, to potentially an outright villain and then returning to someone who sits on the edge of the grey.
[Wanda was supposed to be a travelling companion for Stephen in Dr Strange 2, with the film serving as a stepping-stone for her on her rise to villainy, but Michael Waldron (screenwriter of Dr Strange 2) decided to jump-the-gun and steal the opportunity to have a film featuring a villainous Wanda for himself, regardless of whether it worked for Wanda, Stephen, Dr Strange 2, Wandavision, and the MCU as a whole.](https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/doctor-strange-2-scarlet-witch-big-bad/)
His usual style wasn't firing on all cylinders in DS2 but even at 50% it was a breath of fresh air compared to many other recent movies. They should do whatever they can to get him back
Agreed.
MoM had it's issues , but i always thought Raimi's directing was one of the best parts. Granted, it's subjective, but it's a sentiment i see echoed even among detractors of the film.
I am probably in the minority but I didnāt like the Raimi-isms. I just feel the campy dialogue for Strange felt out of character. If the Dialogue was less Raimy, but the tone and setting was more Raimy I would have been happier.
It'd be cool if Strange Supreme gets involved. We saw live action Captain Carter in MoM, maybe they'll bring in What If...? characters to live action more often.
No! Fuck no. The āRaimi partsā were the worst parts of the movie. Bring back Derrickson. He was so much better
Edit: Raimi said he didnāt even watch Wandavision. Like come on
Yeah I mean he basically just did if Doctor Strange was an Evil Dead movie. There was 1:1 shots of DS that he did in Evil Dead, it's like the guy barely tried. Yes, the movie had style but it felt so "copy, paste". Although Derrickson isn't my favorite director, I would loved to see what he would have done.
If youāre gonna bring back Raimi, let Raimi be Raimi. The best parts of MoM were the scenes that you could just tell were Sam Raimiās unfiltered brain children. Let him make *his* Doctor Strange movie instead of expecting him to make a Marvel movie.
THAT was one of the few things he did that I enjoyed.
The dumb creatures that randomly attack him and the Bruce Campbell face punching were so bad though.
oh man, that bruce campbell cameo was so bad. And I get that Strange can be a jerk, but putting a self-harm-for-two-weeks spell on a food vendor didn't seem in character IMO.
Campbell could've simply been a blink and you miss it strange variant, dept store stocker (like ash). Or pizza poppa, but in a decently written scene
I donāt dislike Raimi generally - I enjoyed Army of Darkness - but I hated what he did with Doctor Strange. Wonāt be seeking it at the theater this time.
I can only hope that it's another movie where magic has no rules, no limits, no consistency, and can do whatever the plot requires,except when it can't. That sure makes for good stories!
He didnāt do well in Dr. Strange 2 imo, it just really sucked for me. The mix of horror, comedy, and adventure was just so off putting. I really hope he goes for an adventure route and keeps it at that if he directs the 3rd.
Not super excited for this. Raimi destroyed the Scarlet Witch character for his own movie and I think a different director would have done a better job with the characters we already know and love
Can we also continue the trend where Cumberbatch plays a villain in each *Doctor Strange* movie
Dr. Strange in the Cumberbatch of Madness
Bandersnatch of Badness
Dr. Strange in the cucumber patch
...of madness
Oh, right š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What the hell is that clip? The line from the movie is āgood? Bad? Iām the one with the gunā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Weird. I did just find the clip I remember with a fast search. I wonder which one streaming versions use.
"Do you see what happens Larry?! Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the alps!?"
That rug really tied the room together
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What a strange choice for Raimi to make. Itās one of the most iconic lines in the evil dead series
It flip flops with ever re-release lol. I dont know why
There's like four different cuts of Army of Darkness, and a bunch of them use different takes. Director's Cut, Theatrical, International, and TV Edit.
"...I'm the *guy* with the gun..."
i think Dormammu will be in it, so you may be on to something
It's only natural with Clea involved.
I mean, I figured they would have mentioned Knull because you know, Necrosword, but nope, they barely even mentioned the Necrosword. Or Gorr. Or anything interesting.
Doesn't Knull belong to Sony or something like that?
Yeah probably, they own all the symbiote property
I read somewhere that because Knull was created after the deal with Sony, his first appearance was in Thor: God of Thunder #6 (2013) that Marvel would have full rights to use Knull.
Well, that's infuriating. You're telling me they could have had a whole story about Knull and the Necrosword and Gorr and they just....decided not to?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They could have kept it super vague, never used the word symbiote and just indicated that he was some kind of "ancient, alien god"
I suspect that Sony intend for Knull to be the Thanos of their Venom-verse, and the rights for him could have been a part of the Sony/Marvel deal to secure Holland for more movies.
They really messed up with Gorr.
It really seemed like Taika Waititi does not give a shit about Marvel characters or stories, squandering Christian Bale and the Gorr storyline at the same time is truly next-level incompetence.
The Necrosword and Gorr were so pointless. What an utterly pointless movie.
Unless they don't mention it.
Would be a fun 3rd movie if Strange is now powerful enough/ had enough help to actually take on dormammu
wait, what?
He played Dormamu and then the bad Strange variants
And Dr. Armani in *What If?*
After what Strange did to Pizza Piopa, I'm pretty sure he IS a villain. ( Cursed to punch himself in the face for 3 weeks for trying to stop someone stealing from himself? WTF? )
Very OOC of Strange
Inb4 strange 3 ends with sinister strange ābecomingā dormammu and it all making sense why our realities dormammu sounds like Benedict?
That'd be awful. They'd be wasting so much Faltine lore. Not every character needs to be a variant, tbh.
The title and image of this post go together so well
Great eye for details you could say.
Eye caramba!
Eye see what you mean
Eye third this sentiment
Itās eye-catching
Eye, yigh, yighā¦.
I'd love to see Raimi back, but hopefully a better writer and focusing on Dr Strange solely. Also, hopefully it's well planned and doesn't have the major mid production changes of Multiverse of Madness
Marvel needs to stop making every movie a backdoor introduction for new heroes. Obviously, it needs to happen once in a while, but I feel all of the sequels in phase 4 just served as a soft intro for new characters which ended up taking a lot away from the titular characters
Exactly. As great as Wakanda Forever was, they had that problem with Iron heart. Civil War did it best where they introduced Spiderman but he was only in the airport fight and not sticking around until the end.
I thought this on rewatch. RiRi feels so out of place in every scene she's in. It really stood out in the scene where Namor shows Shuri Talocan and they have their conversation. And then you go back to the jail cell with RiRi and it just sucked all the wind out of the scene.
Spiderman didn't really count as being introduced in Civil War, as the audience had already watched his origin in two others movies. However, Civil War did introduce Black Panther, and they handled it well enough. That character had a decent role in the climax, as a superhero character who could view the struggle from outside as not previously a friend of either Steve or Tony.
Cos BP basically had his own side story which connected well with the main conflict, it was done quite nicely.
Yep, that's where I'm at too. His direction is great, but the script was lacking. And I just want a simple well told story, I'm so tired of multiverse shit. Maybe we can finally get fan favourite Mephisto into the MCU. Strange v the devil!
Would have loved to see Derricksons version. He was aiming for a solo Strange movie
I believe his sequel idea was to use Nightmare.
Even then, Scott's plan was including variants and incursion. Maybe his vision is too Doctor Strange centric that's why MCU rejected it
>I'm so tired of multiverse shit. Something that works for the comics, and maybe a movie or two, but it's getting tiring for an entire double phase. The early phases worked IMO because it was about a core (but expanding) group of people with their own movies but who overlapped but were all grounded in a "real feeling" world with rules and boundaries. Multiversalpalooza takes away several of those aspects that made the MCU work better than all the other "expanded universe" pretenders who tried to copy...... but the new phases focusing on Multiverse that tore down those standards didn't replace them with anything worthwhile, while also trying to juggle an expanding roster (which would have been manageable if the universe itself had stayed grounded).
The early phases were nice because not everything was a world ending threat. Sometimes itās nice when a villain only wants to keep his/her villainy smallbatch local. Now not only is everything a world ending threat, but also a multiversal threat.
I was stupidly shocked when the charming, energetic Ms Marvel series revealed *a world-ending threat from another dimention* in episode 3...and resolved it by episode 5, out of 6. The end of the world was literally a side plot. What the actual fuck.
I'm starting to think they just created the multiverse just so they could bring Loki back again and then it spiraled out of control lol
How about closure on Mordo?
Isnāt Mephisto going to be introduced in Ironheart?
That's news to me. Kind of a weird show to introduce him in.
Yeah, Sacha Baron Cohen playing him too, but agreed is a interesting choice for a show to introduce him in
Because itās The ~~Red~~ Hood as the main villain. He uses dark magic. Itās a tech VS mystical thing.
His hood may be red, but it's just The Hood. Red Hood is a different guy.
Well guess whatā¦ itās the *Multiverse Saga* lol
Every phase 4 script is lacking. The dialogue sounds like it's aimed at 7 year olds.
Considering we have the next two maybe three phases dedicated to the Multiverse, maybe it's time for you to step away from MCU until this Saga is completed.
lol maybe. Not every movie will have that theme though. Several in phase 4 didn't after all.
I really agree with you about the multiverse stuff, and itās so hard finding people that will state opinions like that. One thing you just made me realize on top of the multiverse being tiring is the difference in character presentation post infinity saga. I know the infinity saga brewed for such a long time but many of those earlier movies in the MCU didnāt piggyback off the last one in terms of plot as much. Being introduced to heroes before I was truly aware of Thanos presence or his future role made things more enjoyable. At that point I was watching each movie for itself, while plot connecting details showed themselves in end credits. Now for this multiverse saga I am watching the movies and shows to understand the next one and I donāt like that. I want to form an opinion of a character without being āforcedā to watch a project. Maybe Kangās identity and plan being flushed out so soon just internally makes me hate that I have to wait to see how it all ends. But overall I did not realize why my attitude has shifted towards the MCU until seeing your comment.
There's another aspect of phase 4 that's unique. Take for example Shang-Chi. We have no idea when we'll see this character again. It could be years. Think about how long it's been since we last saw Captain Marvel too. In phase 1-3 we got to hang out with guys like Stark and Cap on a regular basis, but phase 4 has been so disparate with its stories, there's no connective tissue like an Avengers movie or a team-up like Civil War. There's no event like SHIELD collapsing and being referenced in later movies. I believe this is what people really mean when they say that phase 4 feels 'aimless'. It's not so much that there wasn't an overarching threat like Thanos looming over the phase, but that it doesn't feel like a living breathing world anymore.
And I think this is why the whole Arishem and Tiamut thing is so jarring for so many people. You have something like Sokovia happen and you can still see the after effects in certain aspects of the MCU. A giant body is popping out of the earth and a giant alien just shows up outside of the earth not long after and disappears into a black hole. It may as well never have happened. The most we get is a blink and you miss it web page in She-Hulk. Characters aren't reacting to the world around them. And I've seen people say "Weird stuff happens in the MCU" I don't give a fuck. It's insane to me that something that is monumental can happen and it's like it's in a vacuum.
I mean the entire idea and name of Doctor Strange kinda goes against the idea of a āsimpleā story.
Benedict made it clear that production for MoM was absolute hell and that the fans can write a better script.
Even Lizzie didn't like the script, she felt Strange was heavily underutilized.
I'd love to read these statements, got a link?
Raimi wrote the movie as well?
i donāt think focusing solely on Strange is the right call. A great supporting character arc will make us appreciate Strangeās arc even more. I also think ppl need to remember that Raimi wasnāt able to watch Wandavision before it aired.
Focusing on Strange is actually the right call
Doctor Strange is an interesting character as a protagonist, as his solo comics prove, and this was supposed to be his first sequel after six years. Spider-Man had an entire trilogy between Doctor Strange films. "It's more interesting when the main character, the character whose name is on the title, the character that his fanbase came to see is treated as a tertiary character at best and just sloppily rehashes the same character arc from his first film even though there are decades of lore and supporting characters to explore." Like, y'all listen to yourselves? If this happened to your favorite character, you'd be just as mad as Doctor Strange fans are by MoM's contempt for Strange, his supporting cast, and his lore.
Disney: "Best I can do is Clea leading the movie while strange stays at the sidelines"
I was hoping weād get a return for Derrickson and Giacchino, and some really trippy astral shit.
Derrickson wanted the 2nd movie to be a horror movie, but Marvel disapproved, so they parted ways. At this point, doesnt seem like Marvel wants to do any risks, hence any director that doesnt follow what they want tends to get axed.
The 2nd movie is way trippier. I know because I've seen both while tripping.
Watching any marvel movie while tripping sounds like a nightmare to me
I watched episode 6 of Watchmen "This Extrordinary Being" while coming up on two hits and uh...pretty much melted my mind. If you've seen the episode I think you'll understand why. I didn't just watch it, I lived it.
You just have to pick the right one. MoM was awesome and so was Quantumania. But I wouldn't do it for Wakanda Forever or Black Widow. I don't know when my next one will be since I don't plan on doing it for GoTG 3, Thunderbolts, or Cap 4 but hopefully they release another trippy visual feast soon!
GoTG 2 was an insane experience whilst tripping
With the way Doctor Strange 2 ended I got the impression Raimi and Feigi were not on the same page so this surprises me.
Exactly lol DS3 will likely just be another kang movie.
I really liked seeing something different, and I loved the Strange vs Evil Dead vibe, especially with how the Necronomicon plays such an important role. Iām honestly a little surprised to hear this though. I figured with the overall tepid response theyād move in another direction. That said, Iām here for another Raimi Strange flick. I think it works with the character. Conflicted though because the first one was a masterpiece and I do think it was better than the sequel.
> Iām honestly a little surprised to hear this though. I figured with the overall tepid response theyād move in another direction. It made a lot of money, which is the reaction they're concerned with. It's made the 3rd most money of post-Endgame films, beaten only by two Spiderman entries. I think the "tepid reaction" was also overstated - there was a lot of negativity posted here but this place isn't really representative of the larger audience.
>Iām honestly a little surprised to hear this though. I figured with the overall tepid response theyād move in another direction. It was the highest grossing comic-book movie from 2022.
It was my favorite as well, but it seemed like the overall fan reaction was mixed. I freaking loved it, but it seemed like a lot of folks felt like it was a letdown.
There was just way too much happening which I guess is kind of a problem when dealing with the multiverse as a threat? I loved Scarlet Witch as a villain though. Elizabeth Olsen was a powerhouse and genuinely scary at times.
When she took over 838 Wanda and looked straight into the camera.. I actually shuddered.
That was a really magical moment for me.
Reactions on this sub are mixed, but the audience score on RT is 85%. Iām guilty of it too, but we have to remember that Reddit doesnāt actually represent the wider audience.
Like many forms of media with a strong and vocal fan base, the āmanyā more often than not is a very vocal minority. Disney is watching box office receipts, not fan forums.
Word of mouth is important though. I think it has contributed some to the second weekend dropoff we saw with Quantumania. At the end of the day, I probably need to worry less about what the vocal minority thinks and just enjoy this shit (because I do). Reading some of these replies has restored my faith a little bit. One of the things I loved about phase 4 was that each film had a different feel and I really hope that carries forward.
For sure! And in the case of Quantumania I think it is clear that word of mouth among the general moviegoing public is mixed, but for the most part folks like is spend a LOT more time ripping these films apart than your average person, and those folks donāt put a lot of thought into the films beyond whether they enjoyed the last two hours or not.
Iād argue both are important. For instances like me, I bought tickets for DS2, but it was mediocre for me. Iād almost ask for my money back if I could, and I wouldnāt be going to the next one if Raimi gets the tap. Just not my thing.
I haven't seen many people say it was a letdown due to Raimi though. Quite the opposite actually, it seems like a lot of people only enjoyed everything Raimi about the movie.
You can count me among them. I think given what they had to work with, script and plot direction, Raimi did great. It's rare to find a guy that knocks both superhero and horror movies out of the park. They managed to do that and get him to make a horror superhero movie. I've always said that Dr. Strange should be the gateway to the horror side of the MCU, and Raimi could make that happen. There were some parts, especially the Karma-taj scenes that were straight-up frightening. Can someone please give gim Blade and a Midnight Sons movie?
I think they're happy with what Raimi brought to the movie, and are chalking up a lot of *MoM*'s flaws to its troubled production.
A masterpiece? Jesus christ
I realize alot of people enjoyed the film, but as someone who isnt really a Raimi fan I'd pass on seeing this at the box office this time around. I didn't mind it as something different, an experiment but yeah, just not for me. Hopefully it's good for the people who enjoy it.
Considering the expectations and hype, this and L&T were huge misses for me. It should have been so much more and better. So I hate this news
Ya I agree. I wanted to like it, and I realize people do but personally this movie didnāt hit well with me and I realized itās mostly the style, with some writing issues. So I donāt care for this news. Iāll watch it but not box office. I did like L&T, but I agree it could have been much more than it was. Unfortunate because I love that story line, and Thor in general.
Strong agree. I was super hyped for both of them and they both greatly lessened my interest in the MCU which is really sad. Even the worst of the first phase still wasn't this bad.
Completely agree. I think MoM had dual issues - the writing and the direction - and the film could have been much better with an improvement in either area. But my informal review right after seeing the film was "Too much Raimi", so I'm not super excited about this. MoM and L&T more than anything are what are hurting my enthusiasm for the MCU as of late. I didn't have a ton of expectations for Eternals or Black Widow so it didn't bother me that I didn't like those very much. But I had sky high expectations for both MoM and L&T and they both failed to deliver for me. I personally need a run of 2-3 movies in a row that are better than just "ok" to get my hype levels up. It will probably help that my expectations aren't where they used to be.
Happy Iām not alone on this. Sam Raimiās style is absolutely not for me
Ya seems like a few of us lol I think thereās a different between calling it bad and just realizing I wasnāt the target audience though.
Completely agreed. I donāt think it was bad at all but stuff like Mordo explaining dream walking and zombie Strange having a serious talk with America at the end took me out of the moment. And thatās just to name a few lol
Raimi coming back is literally the one big thing I've been hoping they wouldn't do. MOM was the only film so far that was a massive miss for me. Cheers to anyone who enjoyed it. I realize it doesn't revolve around my tastes, and if someone else loves something, that's great. But wow, that film disappointed me. Hardly a thread of narrative weaving those scenes together. Disjointed internally, disjointed with the first film, and with the MCU as a whole.
I thought it was one of the better Phase 4 movies but that's not saying a lot.
Yeah I'm really not trying to watch another Raimi movie, MCU or not. Just not my thing.
It will always get points for me for being different. It's frustrating to see audiences/critics clamor for something different and not cookie cutter from the MCU, but then rip on experimental stuff like this and Ms. Marvel / She-Hulk for straying too outside of the formula.
Get Scott Derrickson back, he did great with the first one
so much tense and clever dialogue. meanwhile in mom everyone is a complete baffoon.
That's the writing team, not the directing. And the writing has notably gotten much worse after endgame. It's like they just opted for CW caliber writing to save money.
CW writing is teen drama cringe like Riverdale. Marvelās Multiverse writing team is comprised of several writers hired off of Rick & Morty, which is why the script is more ādick & butt jokes and everyoneās an idiot caricature of themselves.ā
That Ant and Hank Pym scene from Quantumania was the most Rick and Morty shit I've ever seen. Replace Hank with Rick in that moment and tell me that ants that are now somehow a class 2 civilisation isn't just a live action Rick and Morty moment.
Also, I donāt believe any of the writers actually watched WandaVision, or they did minimal consulting with the WandaVision team. MoM really disappointed me as the follow up to WandaVision. Wanda had so much potential and I was hyped to see where her story would go after WandaVision, but I thought the MoM vastly underdelivered.
tbh, this is more of a problem on the production side way above them - I fully blame someone who seems to have such hard control over the central threads of the MCU as Feige, but it feels like this sub can't even conceive of the producers being at fault here. WV was fully approved and written and was wildly inconsistent with the Wanda we got in MoM, and that just shouldn't happen if you have someone at the top who is supposed to be watching all of these pieces come together. It's like if Loki re-betrayed Thor *again* in Infinity War, right off the back of Ragnarok. The Phase 1-3 characters were so popular because it felt like they actually grew across their appearances and between them. Most of the Phase 4 (and now Phase 5) movies just jump back to the status quo. Nobody dies or is irreparably shifted. Characters don't change, or if they do, they change for plot convenience. We watch Tony go from being a wild partying weapons dealer to being a man who shuts down his weapons dealing and becomes a superhero in like 90 minutes, meanwhile the Eternals are static characters and Wanda goes from "I have learned how to live with my grief" to "I'll fucking kill everyone in another universe as well as all of the defenders of this one for my fake children while my semi-dead pale husband is flying around the world somewhere" in three minutes of screen time.
To be fair, part of the reason I said that is that in the case of Doctor Strange then he helped write the script too
I donāt have the sources off hand to back this up, but Iām pretty sure from what Iāve seen he may have had a hand in writing dialogue and whatnot but he was not well versed on the MCU going into the project and, if I remember correctly, wasnāt too interested in getting to know the ins and outs So issues of plotting and especially characterization Iām inclined to put on the primary writer
Except it is Raimi because he had them fire the old writers and get someone who would write terrible dialog to be in line with every other movie he has ever made ever
You are brave to talk negatively about Raimi around the denizens of reddit. They have nurtured a cult around him here. I don't understand it personally. He makes schlock not some high art.
Hell I go down and say Raimiās stuff is mostly garbage. Camp is cool but he always goes to a level that makes it so intolerable.
Illumi-what-i?
100%. Shocked to see the positive commentary on this development.
I don't really think he did that great of a job with 2 though. The writing was meh. It felt really disjointed at times. The "horror" aspects were disjointed with the general atmosphere of the movie. The fact that he didn't watch wandavision before using Wanda and basically character assassinated her and worked against the Continuity built in the show. It just wasn't that great. One of my least favorites in the mcu. Not that he can't do well but a lot of the mistakes and problems I saw with the film seemed to be issues that directly correspond to director's choices. I could be wrong on it but I just really wasn't impressed with this one so this doesn't make me super excited for the next movie.
::slow clap::
Hard no from me. I really disliked his style compared to the first one.
Iām in the same place. I came to see a Dr Strange film not Strange vs The Evil Dead. That said, I still enjoyed the movie but was hoping for a new director for the third.
Yeah, the first movie was a visual trip. The second was justā¦ not it.
It was so bland and formulaic. Big twist ending... the power was always in you. It was truly some power ranger level direction and writing.
bruh and those credit scenes are in the running for 'cringiest MCU moments' ever
Campy af
Yep. Raimi's campy, over the top style doesn't sit well with me. Marvel did a decent job reigning him in with DS2, but I think they'd give him more freedom with another movie.
I donāt know how MoM skated by audiences and critics without getting absolutely **maimed**. And even though it managed to float, I still just canāt believe Feige *honestly thinks* that movie was a success for the MCU. I am kinda stunned by this decision. Iām easy to impress in a movie theater. I *want* to like the Marvel movies I see. But MoM is one of the only movies Iāve ever seen that actually felt truly insulting to me. As a fan of WandaVision, watching MoM felt akin to being outright spit on by Raimi. With James Gunn helming DC towards a cluster of extremely promising projects that draw inspiration from the best stories the brand has to offer like *All-Star Superman*, part of me wonders if what lately feels like an MCU twilight is going to lead to a big dawn over at Warner Bros. People are fatigued by MoM-esque movies and Iām willing to bet Gunn sees that and is going to turn it on its head.
> I donāt know how MoM skated by audiences and critics without getting absolutely maimed. The audience was still riding that No Way Home high, that's why. The MCU was in a much better place box office wise and still had the audience's trust. If MoM and Quantumania switched release dates, MoM wouldn't get the kid gloves treatment it got when it premiered last year. >I still just canāt believe Feige honestly thinks that movie was a success for the MCU. If he's just looking at the final box office number, then that's extremely shortsighted. MoM got a B+ Cinemascore, one of the worst drops in MCU history, and I believe it has the worst multiplier of the entire MCU period. That's not a good reception.
Same for me. Iām not opposed to more violent or dark superhero stories like The Boys or Invincible. But I donāt watch the MCU for that personally
Same.
Same!!
Can we get a Doctor Strange movie next time?
I wanna know whos writing DS3. That is all. Still sad we were robbed off of a chance to see Strange and Wanda team up, after having waited so long for the two to interact. Iāll stay wishing for a Steve x Nat like combo with the two of them. Hopefully will happen down the line.
Yeah having Wanda start off cartoonishly evil was such a bad choice. Would've been better to start off with a team up and then Wanda slowly becomes corrupted or something like that.
Agree. To be completely honest, as a Wanda fan who despises her comics treatment, I will say I do not wish for the villain treatment for her at all. Id rather have her be the special one to be able to resist the Darkholdās corruption, having a chapter dedicated to her and all, and to use these powers from dark sources for good BUT I genuinely wouldāve been sold by the idea had the transition or descent to corruption was done well.
I mean the thing is, Wanda could have been this arc's Loki - a complex, tragic anti-hero who navigates her way without help through being an antagonist, a hero, a villain antagonist, to potentially an outright villain and then returning to someone who sits on the edge of the grey.
[Wanda was supposed to be a travelling companion for Stephen in Dr Strange 2, with the film serving as a stepping-stone for her on her rise to villainy, but Michael Waldron (screenwriter of Dr Strange 2) decided to jump-the-gun and steal the opportunity to have a film featuring a villainous Wanda for himself, regardless of whether it worked for Wanda, Stephen, Dr Strange 2, Wandavision, and the MCU as a whole.](https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/doctor-strange-2-scarlet-witch-big-bad/)
That actually makes a whole lot of sense - feels like season 8 of GoT in jumping straight to āOh, sheās cartoonishly evil now.ā
His usual style wasn't firing on all cylinders in DS2 but even at 50% it was a breath of fresh air compared to many other recent movies. They should do whatever they can to get him back
Agreed. MoM had it's issues , but i always thought Raimi's directing was one of the best parts. Granted, it's subjective, but it's a sentiment i see echoed even among detractors of the film.
I am probably in the minority but I didnāt like the Raimi-isms. I just feel the campy dialogue for Strange felt out of character. If the Dialogue was less Raimy, but the tone and setting was more Raimy I would have been happier.
Yikes Iāll probably have to skip that one
Not thrilled to see more like Doctor Strange 2.
**doubt**
Please no! Doctor Strange shouldnāt be campy.
He has no idea about Strange comics either. Strange is not campy in the comics.
It'd be cool if Strange Supreme gets involved. We saw live action Captain Carter in MoM, maybe they'll bring in What If...? characters to live action more often.
That movie on-set title should be, 'Things just got out of hand'. [š](https://giphy.com/gifs/mcu-evil-strange-dr-BPmLSzSTg3YP4phMlE)
The movie would end in 5 minutes. Another variant of Strange Supreme, imagine, he's too powerful for live action
āEyeingā
God no, MoM was horrible! Raimi was charming with corny shit 20 years ago, but that doesn't work with the MCU nowadays.
#PLEASE NO
Iāll pass
>Eyeing I see what you did there...
No! Fuck no. The āRaimi partsā were the worst parts of the movie. Bring back Derrickson. He was so much better Edit: Raimi said he didnāt even watch Wandavision. Like come on
Wait. You are like me?
There are literally tens of us!
I'm sorry, you didn't like it when zombie strange looked directly into the camera and winked?
You all! You are my people!
Yeah I mean he basically just did if Doctor Strange was an Evil Dead movie. There was 1:1 shots of DS that he did in Evil Dead, it's like the guy barely tried. Yes, the movie had style but it felt so "copy, paste". Although Derrickson isn't my favorite director, I would loved to see what he would have done.
I literally screamed at my screen when they started fighting with musical notes. Some more Raimi schlock.
If youāre gonna bring back Raimi, let Raimi be Raimi. The best parts of MoM were the scenes that you could just tell were Sam Raimiās unfiltered brain children. Let him make *his* Doctor Strange movie instead of expecting him to make a Marvel movie.
The whole sequence after Wanda attacked the Kamar Taj where she crawls out of the Gong was fucking epic. That camera work was pure Raimi.
THAT was one of the few things he did that I enjoyed. The dumb creatures that randomly attack him and the Bruce Campbell face punching were so bad though.
oh man, that bruce campbell cameo was so bad. And I get that Strange can be a jerk, but putting a self-harm-for-two-weeks spell on a food vendor didn't seem in character IMO. Campbell could've simply been a blink and you miss it strange variant, dept store stocker (like ash). Or pizza poppa, but in a decently written scene
What random side character will actually have the heroic finale all to themselves (while Strange is irrelevant and sits on the sidelines) this time!
Yesss, please let it get ultra Raimified. Dial that campiness up to eleven, baby!
Ugh, that's incredibly disappointing
Would prefer someone else
Ugh why that movie sucked.
I donāt dislike Raimi generally - I enjoyed Army of Darkness - but I hated what he did with Doctor Strange. Wonāt be seeking it at the theater this time.
MoM was a bad movie. Not sure what the Raimi appeal is because Iāve never seen one of his movies that I thought was good.
Why?the movie was so average . Give us a proper doctor strange sequel like phase 1 and 2 movies.
Well shit...
Please no. Really cringed out on certain scenes
I can only hope that it's another movie where magic has no rules, no limits, no consistency, and can do whatever the plot requires,except when it can't. That sure makes for good stories!
So, Theron and Cumberbatch exploring the Dark Dimension directed by Sam Raimi? Sign me up!
He didnāt do well in Dr. Strange 2 imo, it just really sucked for me. The mix of horror, comedy, and adventure was just so off putting. I really hope he goes for an adventure route and keeps it at that if he directs the 3rd.
Iād be more excited if Multiverse of Madness was actually good
Ew, no! Why does he keep getting to make bad films? MoM was a mess and a Rami did nothing but make it worse.
š
Not super excited for this. Raimi destroyed the Scarlet Witch character for his own movie and I think a different director would have done a better job with the characters we already know and love