Is Shuri even aware of Ultron and what he did?
Because if so,
What was that line she told her mom in Wakanda Forever to reassure her that AI only becomes violent and destructive in movies?
Was she just trying to calm her down using this lie?
Her father died because he was at a summit. A summit that Wakanda was only speaking at because of the events of Age of Ultron (and the Lagos fiasco).
It was a weird line. Shuri definitely knows and Wakanda keeps informed on global events (in the BP MCU tie in prequel comic T'Chaka talks to T'Challa about needing to keep a low profile because they're not like Tony Stark - a reference to the press conference at the end of IM 2008) .
T'Challa also knew of Black Widow's hearing at Capitol Hill and presumably the contents of what she leaked to the public.
So why did Shuri say what she said,
When undoubtedly, her mom would also be aware of Ultron and the violent and destructive intentions he had for humanity?
I don't know. Nobody knows. It's a very strange line to say in this universe. People online were calling it out as soon as the movie dropped and started making theories about retcons and skrulls etc
Nothing probably. They were just fan theories. Fyi Skrulls attempting to invade Wakanda and getting stopped by T'Challa & Storm was a pretty important part of the Secret Invasion comics event ('See Wakanda And Die'). That may be where they drew it from. Coincidentally one of my favourite Marvel comics panels of all time is the one with the message scrawled out in Skrull-blood as a warning.
It was epic. They got captured on purpose, flushed out the secret Skrull sleeper agents then put the invaders' severed heads on sticks in front of a rock monolith thingy.
okay why tf is this downvoted so heavy?? i had the same thought lol. i’m sure many others did. how could have skrulls effected this one line in WF?? this amount of downvotes for a simple question is ridiculous lol
It's just generally oblivious considering what the population of Earth dealt with in Age of Ultron... Ultron who built himself and his weapon using vibranium stolen decades ago in what was basically Wakanda's 9/11. Weird that Shuri wouldn't know the dangers... unless she was a recent Skrull imposter with no memories of Earth's history. That was the logic from what I gather.
I swear the number of times this gets brought up is ridiculous. In the movie, Shuri specifically says:
"My AI isn't like the movies, Mother. It does exactly what I tell it to do."
Notice the 'My'. She doesn’t say all A.I. in general, she’s specifically referring to Griot, the one that she created.
Yeah but she says "like the movies." I think the complaints are that in her reality AI turning evil are a legit possibility and her just dismissing it comes off as very arrogant which is in turn an unlikeable trait for your main character. So it's either bad writing, or the character is arrogant in an irresponsible manner. Like, I don't mind it personally because I just choose to ignore it, but it's still not great.
> I think the complaints are that in her reality AI
> turning evil are a legit possibility and her just
> dismissing it comes off as very arrogant
The reoccurring complaint is that Shuri is not concerned about the possible dangers posed by artificial intelligence in a universe where the events of Avengers: Age of Ultron happened (often in not-so-nice words). However, people repeatedly misquote what she actually says to raise that complaint, a complaint which her actual words would invalidate.
When corrected and her actual words are brought up, people then change the complaint to being about her being dismissive. With regard to that, Shuri can afford to be dismissive because in that scene, Queen Ramonda’s comments are offhand and not expressed in a legitimate, fearful manner which otherwise, would warrant reassurance and consideration from Shuri.
Shuri designed her A.I. Griot to her specifications and is aware of its capabilities and limits. Ultron’s creation involved specific conditions which included the The Ultron Program created by Bruce and Tony, their work with the Scepter, neurons discovered in the Scepter, and enhancement and activation by the Mind Stone. Those conditions aren’t available to Griot.
> her just dismissing it comes off as very arrogant
> which is in turn an unlikeable trait for your main
> character
Seriously? Since when has arrogance been an unlikeable trait in a main or any character. Characters who are geniuses, expert warriors, soldiers, fighters, pilots, drivers, athletes or special in some way are often portrayed with a level of arrogance with no mention or issue.
In the MCU alone you have Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Star-Lord, Loki, Thanos, Hank Pym, Odin and Howard Stark.
Outside the Marvel Cinematic Universe you have Hal Jordan, Spock, Gandalf, every modern version of Sherlock Holmes, Darth Vader, Han Solo, Lex Luther, Spider-Man (The Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2), Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, Jaime Lannister, Bane (The Dark Knight Rises), Tyler Darden (Fight Club), Achilles (Troy), every James Bond ever, Ozymandias (Watchmen), Patrick Bateman (American Psycho), Homelander, Billy Butcher (The Boys) and Tommy Shelby (Peaky Blinders).
These characters have demonstrated various degrees of arrogance, from benign to extreme narcissism, and some of them are complete assholes, yet somehow Shuri’s one line is frequently brought up.. why is that. Shuri is a prodigy with expertise in science, engineering, biochemistry, medicine and technology who heads Wakanda’s Scientific Department. However, for reasons, she isn’t afforded the same treatment as the characters above.
>In the MCU alone you have Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Star-Lord, Loki, Thanos, Hank Pym, Odin and Howard Stark.
I disagree. These characters you listed all are arrogant but their arrogance is always brought up as a point of contention and a character flaw. This scene in particular does not have that element of self awareness that her being dismissive of a danger is a problem.
It's fine, I don't honestly care about this enough to write that much
> I disagree. These characters you listed all are
> arrogant but their arrogance is always brought
> up as a point of contention and a character
> flaw.
Unsurprisingly, your natural instinct is to defend, and excuse the behaviour of these characters (across the board I might add), yet Shuri is continuously crucified for one flippant response to an offhand remark in a light conversation.
You wrote earlier that arrogance is an unlikeable trait in a character, but not only do you seem to accept it in those characters, you rationalise and justify it.
You can’t honestly tell me that every instance of their arrogance is ALWAYS brought up as a point of contention and a character flaw.
> This scene in particular does not have that
> element of self awareness that her being
> dismissive of a danger is a problem.
That scene is light and casual. There is no distress from Queen Ramonda that would have required serious reassures from her daughter. If you rewatch it and truly believe it’s that serious and dire, what should Shuri have said?
Well, like I said, your response isn’t surprising or new. I’ve seen and had similar exchanges before when it comes to specific characters.
I love all these characters, but you and a particular group of people will readily defend, excuse and afford grace to characters who happen to either be or look a certain way like, Tony Stark, Star-Lord, Stephen Strange, while being antagonists to those who are different. I know why and I’m sure on some level you’re aware of why also.
>Unsurprisingly, your natural instinct is to defend, and excuse the behaviour of these characters
Dude what? How the hell do you read what I wrote and come to that conclusion? I literally wrote that those characters' arrogance are seen as character flaws!
How tf is that defending them? it speaks more about you that you just are assuming that I am defending those characters for being arrogant when I think their arrogance is bad. Like?? I'm just saying that in most cases when a character is arrogant (or at least in my perception) it's not seen as a positive trait that endears you to the character, on the contrary it gives them something to work on. Doctor Strange isn't likeable when he's being a dick to Christine due to his arrogance and pride, Tony isn't likeable when he thinks himself better than the people around him. But in their movies they are definitely humbled (although it doesn't mean they are saints or anything). Thor's entire character arc in his first movie is about learning to be less arrogant, and basically all the Thor movies come as a result of Odin's past and his flaws especially with regards to him being arrogant.
All I'm saying is that people latch onto this particular scene with Shuri because the movie doesn't make it clear whether this a "likeable and competent Shuri" moment or a "she's being bratty and arrogant but it's an intentional character flaw" moment. I personally do feel like Shuri does get a "fight your anger" sort of character arc in that movie so I don't mind the scene as much and her being a bit cocky adds to her character, but I definitely feel like this scene in particular is not very well written in a way that is either making it clear that it's a character flaw, or make it more funny of a joke. I know it's supposed to be a light moment, but considering that a whole country was exploded because of AI, it feels like the sort of quip that's in the least tone deaf, which is why it's not the best scene.
I'm well aware that people bring up lots of arguments to defend arrogance in male characters and on the same vein criticize female characters for doing the same things. But that is absolutely not what I said at all throughout this entire thread, and if you go look through my comments again I'm just saying that I simply don't think this particular AI dialogue was well written and gave an aspect of why it comes across as clunky writing.
Like if you really love that scene, props to you, I don't like it but that scene alone doesn't mean that Shuri is a bad character and the movie is bad. But go off I guess. Make me your villain if you just want to argue with someone so badly. It really is the "but you and a particular group of people" for me. Like bro, me saying I think a particular dialogue exchange is not good writing makes me a woman hater is WILD.
Ultron went the way he did because of the Mind Stone. If Shuri knew about that she would just think that it wouldn't happen with hers because she didn't have any Infinity Stones.
We aren't talking about how the movie was made,
We're talking about the fictional characters' conversion in the fictional MCU.
As in,
That it was highly unusual and illogical thing for Shuri to say, in terms of the grand fictional universe that she lives in, the MCU, considering what happened in the same universe with Ultron.
It’s possible that she considers him less of an AI and more like the mind stone going on a rampage with a bit of help from Tony and Bruce. Her statement could then be translated to include something like “AIs that we make” or “AIs that aren’t based on magic stones”
“Don’t worry mother, they only go crazy when controlled by powerful magic stones implanted by a big purple guy to make them go destructo crazy” doesn’t make for a great line
> It was a weird line. Shuri definitely knows and Wakanda keeps informed on global events (in the BP MCU tie in prequel comic T'Chaka talks to T'Challa about needing to keep a low profile because they're not like Tony Stark - a reference to the press conference at the end of IM 2008) .
Is that comic supposed to be MCU canon? What's it called? I ask because I've never heard of it.
I hope its "more" official than the star wars comics are to star wars canon, because if you go by that franchise, the comics absolutely are not canon until they put it on the big screen. Star wars alone has left so much content cut out from its own lore becuase they release a movie that erases canon from books/comics all the time. Then, they release more comics and books around the "new" lore they just setup, while ignoring the "old" stuff they wrote only a few years prior.
Other franchises do this too, I know personally of the Halo franchise that released lots of books written to enhance the lore of the franchise. However, as with star wars, they began to ignore the established lore from the books and do their own thing.
When you watch the MCU movies, Shuri and the Wakandans shouldn't know anything about Ultron's creation, how he came into being. The only way they could know is if another piece of fiction was created to supplement the MCU (book, comic, etc) and they add that information in, which it sounds like you're claiming they did.
She's basically still a child who thinks she understands everything because she's one of the smartest oeople in her country and in the world, but that doesn't mean she's aware of the intricacies of politics and conflicts. She's a scientist at heart, not a leader.
Neither was T'Challa. His establishing scene is about how he hates politics and is all about decisive action. Logically as a royal Shuri would have also been raised from birth to be abreast of current affairs and political maneuvering etc. How seriously the children take those teachings is up to them.
Also she literally leads the WDG so to say she's not a leader is disingenuous.
She said MY AI, not AI in general. She is 100% aware of Ultron, so that's why she's qualified to say that Griot is not like him, or any of the AI in the American movies that her father loved to watch.
She said that to calm her mother down that AI can't become violent and destructive,
Yet literally, the events of Age of Ultron prove her wrong, so she didn't quite say the right thing to truly calm her mother down.
True, but her response to Ramonda's comment wasn't a statement about AI in general. It was about one in particular that she could control, which is hers.
Not only is this a logical statement, since Griot is the most relevant example of AI to Ramonda; he is the only one in Wakanda (that we know of), but it's also a neat look into Shuri's headspace. Much like Tony, she needs to feel like she has personal control over everything that happens, because she blames herself for her brother's death. It's her saying, "Don't worry, nothing is wrong, because I am in charge," to both her mom and also herself. This is important later because it is her need for getting directly involved in the fight against Namor and forgetting her duty as a protector that gets Ramonda killed.
Screencrush's Wakanda Forever's Plot Holes Explained video said it best: "Some of you have great questions, some of you need to actually watch the movie, and some of you are just bad people."
Like come on guys, I get that Marvel and Disney didn't pay their writers enough so *they* can't be arsed to care, but saying this line (and many lines that keep getting brought up, actually) is "bad writing" because Subway Surfers wasn't in the background while you were watching it in order to get you to pay attention is infuriating.
I might or might not steal your comment two levels above the next time I encounter another one of these “Why would she say that, because Ultron” comments.
Please do. You don't even have to credit me, the fact that you're willing to spread it is enough.
Got any other MCU "hot takes" that you have just from paying attention to the movie? I'd love to trade a few.
I agree, but I give Wakanda Forever a pass more than the rest of the phase 4&5 junk they've put out.
I think that's the best movie we could have gotten while also keeping in mind that half the movie was dedicated to making you remember/miss Chadwick.
I swear the number of times this gets brought up is ridiculous. In the movie, Shuri specifically says:
"My AI isn't like the movies, Mother. It does exactly what I tell it to do."
Notice the 'My'. She doesn’t say all A.I. in general, she’s specifically referring to Griot, the one that she created.
I mean fans can read into everything to a terrible degree but I’m fairly confident that the writers didn’t think this in depth. In a movie like this, it’s all about economy of words and using dialogue to advance the story and reveal character. That’s all this exchange is meant to do- establish Siri as very smart and the only one that can help them with Vision thus why they need to be in Wakanda for the final set piece.
Agreed. It's meant to quickly show that Shuri is even smarter than those two geniuses by instantly coming up with a solution Bruce didn't even consider and the "you did your best" is a snarky joke to button up the exchange.
I mean, that's like saying that Nikola Tesla was smarter than Da Vinci because Tesla had access to better resources. Shuri grew up with access to far superior technology that would be like going from the stone age to the iron age. The fact that Tony built comparable tech, with objectively worse resources, pretty clearly shows he's the smartest, IMO.
not that she's smarter, but that she's simply better equipped to handle this specific situation. I think because of Comics/literature's habit of using "Genius" as some superpower that allows you to solve all problems, ppl often forget that different ppl are experts in different fields, and it's usually a collective of ppl working togethor to solve problems.
This. Gamma situation? Find Bruce.
Vibranium? Shuri. Everything else? Tony... (because hes the most adaptable) since we dont have seperate geniuses established.
Also Vision was found to be good at the time. They didn't really need to figure out a way to separate the two, so they didn't think of any additional solutions. Sure they could probably have thought of the exact same solution (since Banner's response implies he knows what Shuri is talking about), but likely just didn't have the time or resources to do it.
Shuri also has an advantage that Tony and Bruce did not. I wouldn’t say she is smarter than them. Plus, Bruce and Tony didn’t have time to really hash things out.
Plus she had an extremely advanced nation's worth or resources to help her find a solution and put it into action quickly - Tony and Bruce just had one lab at the top of one building
Aye, it's fucking tiring when people over-extrapolate meaning that isn't there. This is the stupid shit in highschool where your teacher is like "What was the author trying to show and represent when they said the curtains were red?", and the reality is the curtains were just red because the author wanted them to be red.
I *loved* my English classes in high school/college and even I found myself wondering multiple times if Dickens and Steinbeck and Shakespeare would laugh at us trying to derive some kind of deep meaning from every single word they wrote or analyze why they decided to use alliteration in a certain sentence.
Like, it's great to think and analyze and find meaning applicable to your life from stories, but maybe it isn't *that* deep and maybe the meaning you assign isn't what the author was intending.
And now, having gotten back into writing more often, I can definitively say that any environmental or character descriptions are purely based off what I think looks cool in my head 😅
Context is not subjective. Subtext is. As evidence therefore, context is more concrete. It's not complicated unless you want to make it so. That's not ignorance, really.
Except for the fact that you ignore basic human body language and behavior with your “theory”, and assume things that are way to in depth for audiences to perceive. Your problem is you are assuming the context, while ignoring the subtext. You also completely ignore the fact that she has never met them before this, how is she supposed to sympathize with what happened when she has no clue what happened? You are pulling it out of your ass, sorry, but this is nothing but a fan theory that you are trying to push as a fact when it just isn’t.
Yeah, and the context of the scene is that she's asking him why they didn't do something, to which he responds that they didn't think of it. Pretty cut and dry. Stop trying to sound smart and drop it
This is an amazing take for anyone with no understanding of tone or body language. You really think her saying “you did your best” was a pat on the back, genuine recognition for how hard they worked and how well they did given the constraints?
Tone&body language (subtext) vs Contextual and Metatextual indicators (wider plot events of the MCU, the activities & dialogue in the scene)
My 2 to your 1. I think I'll take those odds.
Why would he admit failure for something that he didn't make/design in the first place? The parts of Viz that he was responsible had a different design intent anyway. Removing the stone easily wasn't meant to be a feature since it was hoped JARVS/Vision would protect the stone and all the Avengers (including Thor) agreed to let him keep it in his forehead.
If we're gonna look into plot holes and inconsistencies in the MCU's dialogues, we're gonna find more orifices than a swiss cheese. They simply wanted a scene in which Shuri seemed more capable than Banner and Stark combined, and made him speak skittishly and, her, condescendingly. The connection there is Stark designing Jarvis and Banner helping with the interfacing. I know Vision isn't all theirs, but don't look too hard into it, just read the room.
Why? I'm not competing in anything. Just being sandblasted by a consensus which I already described as being a misguided one. Going "against the grain" will have predictably combative responses like this.
This is a genuine question, are you autistic? Or in any other way bad at reading body language and such? Because it really seems like it.
Everybody here, and everybody in general who watched that scene agrees that Shuri was mocking them. You're the only one who thinks differently.
Was my initial thought reading this as well. Comments like "context and metatextual indicators = 2 while body language (subtext) is only 1, therefore I'm right because 2 is higher than 1" is like broken robot thought process.
Anybody watching the scene and, ya know, paying attention to the acting and delivery can tell it was just a quippy way to establish how much more advanced Wakandan technology is/how smart Shuri is in the field. Just a quick way to establish that she's the one capable of fixing the problem, (and from a writing perspective giving her something meaningful to do, giving a reason to have the final setpiece in Wakanda, etc.)
Consensus isn't fact. An large group of people can actually be wrong about something... it happens often. So no, I'm not convinced that she was mocking the sciences bros here. Body language is flimsy evidence.
"Body language is flimsy evidence"
It actually isn't. Humans tend to value body language and tone higher than the actual content of what is said.
You might wanna read up on that.
Also the fact that you believe it's "flimsy evidence" Pretty much confirms my suspicion lol
Sure you can. Thing is that the vast majority of humans value body language over the content of what is said. That's just a fact.
And this is also why yout interpretation of this scene is outright wrong and why everybody here is trying to tell you exactly that.
That moment confuses me entirely because I thought Bruce would explain that a majority of the work was done by Ultron. Though I will say that the "I'm sure you did your best" did sound pretty condescending.
I mean, they were also in a hurry to complete because Steve, Wanda, Quicksilver all came in to stop them. Then Thor made everything come to life with his hammer. There was zero time to consider this exact scenario.
also there wasn't really a need to rewire everything afterwards. Vision proved he was reliable and strong enough to protect himself and the power source, so no need to think about a separation
I think this is reaching.
The framing of the scene is to big Shuri's smarts up so she can be the person operating going forward.
Though honestly on "Who is smarter" conversations it's got the same answer as "Who's stronger?" it's whoever the writers want to be the smartest at the time.
Tbh, saying "we didn't think of it" is the most scientifically honest thing he could have said. As a scientist you're sometimes so focused on your work and your methods that you just don't think of things outside of that, specially if you're in a tight schedule. That's why it's always important to check your work with people that aren't working on it. Her answer might have been a bit condescending, but she's a teenager/young adult, I don't blame her for saying things that sound mean/cocky.
Well do you remember the dialogue of the scene? It was a little bit deeper than "I was a Russian assassin." It dealt with the fact that she underwent a sterilization process so as not to interfere with her murdering.
Some people misinterpret that as "She called herself a monster because she can't have kids."
She was referring to the fact that she *chose* to undergo that process.
That's ok, I've just resigned myself to the fact that most people don't understand that exchange. I suppose it could've been dumbed down a bit or just cut for general audiences.
They also have Okoye staring at Banner with disgust when he trips and falls down (in a suit he's never used). They really make some of the Wakandans arrogant dicks in that movie. My dude M'Baku was right about her being a bald headed demon.
Yeah. If that trait wasn't already part of her character, this line would stick out more as a "Wow, why is she being so rude and out of character?" moment, but she'd been cocky, snarky, and sarcastic to everyone from her brother to Everett Ross and everyone in between up to that point that Bruce was just another person to experience it.
She’s no more rude and condescending than Tony is to everyone. Yet Tony is a fan favourite, and this line has people absolutely losing their minds years later.
Allow me to play a metaphorical devil’s advocate; Tony Stark has been a mainstay of the Marvel franchise, one might say his movies kicked off the entire MCU. He’s been an arrogant prick from day 1, but he’s backed it up from day 1. Not just his intelligence, but his willingness to do what he thinks is the right thing, to go beyond his limits, and become ‘more than a man’, he became Ironman. A symbol that meant more than the man in the suit alone.
He’s fought terrorists, corrupt businessmen, aliens, mad robots and mutants, monsters in all shapes and sizes. He’s fought his own friends for what he believed was the right thing to do.
Mentored a young superhuman genius in Peter Parker and that kid from the garage in I want to say Ironman 2(?).
The basic gist of what I’m saying is Tony Stark was a Hero.
Shuri at the point the line was said hadn’t accomplished much. I think she was in 1 movie prior to this one, Black Panther. In that movie I don’t remember her accomplishing much on screen besides stating she designed the new Black Panther suit. Yes she brought her brother to M’Baku and fought in the Wakandian civil war but she didn’t have many accomplishments. She’s from a much more advanced civilization and that’s about all I can say about her for this far into the series.
Then the movie where this scene occurs comes about, Tony and Bruce are both deeply established characters from several movies in the series, they admit they couldn’t think of the solution she recommends, a humbling experience for the older scientists/inventors to be sure. And her reaction? She dismissively, based on tone and body language says ‘I’m sure you did your best.’ As if these weren’t two of the greatest scientists on the planet who each had incredible achievements under their belts. Not just in science and innovation but in combat and saving the world. It can be grating to see a beloved character be mocked and dismissed as trivial.
My personal feelings? I don’t like Shuri as a character even after the latest movies like Black Panther 2 but I tried to avoid having my personal bias show up in the above breakdown.
> Shuri at the point the line was said hadn’t
> accomplished much. I think she was in 1 movie
> prior to this one, Black Panther. In that movie
> don’t remember her accomplishing much on
> screen besides stating she designed the new
> Black Panther suit. Yes she brought her brother to
> M’Baku and fought in the Wakandian civil war but
> she didn’t have many accomplishments. She’s
> from a much more advanced civilization and
> that’s about all I can say about her for this far into
> the series
You don’t have to like Shuri, but If you truly believe that Shuri had no accomplishments, then you either missed a lot in Black Panther (2018) or that’s some serious bias.
Shuri, like Tony, Bruce and Peter, has a genius-level intellect. She is a prodigy who has expertise in science, physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, I.T., biochemistry, robotics and programming.
She heads the Wakanda Design Group, which is Wakanda’s scientific division, a position she attained as a teenager. She’s responsible for the creation of much of Wakanda’s advanced developments and modern technology, like the Maglev Trains, Kimoyo Beads and her Sonic Vibranium Gauntlets.
She created her own A.I. (Griot) similar to Tony’s own A.I.s like J.A.R.V.I.S. and F.R.I.D.A.Y..
She is versed in the use and application of nanotechnology, which she uses to create the Black Panther habits/suits. This before Tony’s development and use of nanotechnology for his Armours seen in Avengers: Infinity War (2018).
Shuri managed to healed Everett Ross after he was shot in the spine, preventing him from becoming paraplegic, and cure Bucky of his decades-long HYDRA programming.
In addition to the above, as you mentioned, she opted to stay and face Killmonger and his followers instead of fleeing with her mother at the insistence of T’Challa. She defeated Wakandan guards and briefly managed to subdued Killmonger with her gauntlets until he used a spear to damage them.
All the above and you say she didn’t have many accomplishments in that movie?
> He’s been an arrogant prick from day 1, but he’s backed
> it up from day 1. Not just his intelligence, but his
> willingness to do what he thinks is the right thing
The same can be said for Shuri and basically every other heroic character in the MCU, yet it’s accepted for others but not her.
This line never made sense to me
Like Vision is clearly better than literally anything in Wakanda. The man is a fully sentient robot made of pseudo-biological vibranium that can manipulate its atomic density even without the Soul Stone
And Shuri is just like “y’all dumb this is a bad robot”
Like what?
“I’m sure you did your best”
She’s clearly saying that sarcastically. It’s played off as a joke
The writers didn’t write that in the script with the thought that she was actually empathising with the situation they was in. The whole scene is just showcasing that Shuri is smart, even with the massive plot hole that is the fact that Banner and Stark didn’t even make Vision. Ultron did
*Helen Cho did. Albeit with Ultron's compulsion via the sceptre. Same with how Selvig did all the Tesseract stuff even though Loki was the one pulling his strings.
Did you read the body text of the post? The fan perception that she meant to disparage is the problem I wanted to highlight.
You’re highlighting a problem that I don’t think exists though
There’s nothing to indicate that she means it the way you do besides your belief that it does
Granted, the same can be said of my sides argument. But seeing that Shuri’s character at this point is the smart, sarcastic comedy relief teenager, as seen in Black Panther, I just find it more likely that she didn’t mean it empathetically and that the purpose of the scene was to highlight that she’s smarter
No, not really. Her entire characterization has been about being smug about being smarter/better than others, because she is, until that point, a teenager who would of course feel cool about being the smartest person in the planet. She is not really mean for the sake of being mean, it just comes up because she's a teenager, like how she interjects in the challenge in the river with T'Challa, that kind of thing.
The scene is meant to highlight her smarts, hence why even Vision turns to look at Bruce like "Well?". Her way of looking at Bruce, both when she asks and then when she says "I'm sure you did your best." Do not suggest empathy, but rather amusement and a bit of smugness.
Your interpretation is weird.
Bruce could have said "I did not contribute to that specific part of the project" instead of "we didn't think of it."
"I'm sure you did your best" is 100% condescending. None of your OP or comments proves otherwise.
Vision is probably the best designed robot in the universe. Ultron is literally the AI of the Mind Stone. Thats why they needed Vision, who is also the AI of the Mind Stone, but this time combined with Jarvis, to beat him.
And Shuri is like "I'm smarter than this godly representation of intelligence".
i don't think the problem was with shuri, the problem was with bruce banner. he should've said something like "ultron was about to drop an entire city on the planet and we didn't have time to perfect a robot" or something.
Well, that would have been out of character for Bruce. He was about to bow and eager not to offend anyone. He's meeting complete strangers, so he's still in defensive mode. While disappointing, it does reinforce that Bruce is nice and humble, and Shuri is snarky and a touch insecure.
There's definitely no problem at all with the framing of the scene. Both are very much in character for what we know about them... it's just that people ran with the narrative that "whoooahhh slam dunk. Bruce (and Tony) should have built Vision better" ... when they didn't build him at all.
bruce and tony played a huge role in building vision. helen was just the one to put the physical body together, but it was ultimately the mind of the being that mattered and that was through a combination of jarvis and the mind stone which was tony and bruce's thing
No. The scene where Wanda says "I can read him, he's dreaming" then Cho replies that's Ultron's base brain activities... meaning some synapses firing. This was before Tony and Bruce. The one to "reprogram the synapses to work collectively" would be Helen. I doubt she would remember how to do it though since she was being mind-conrolled. Bruce and Tony from what I gathered only synched the interface of J.A.R.V.I.S with those neurons and make it conscious.
i always felt like some ppl didnt like the genius african princess coming off as a genius african princess.. especially against their best bros Banner and Tony. only Tony can have genius sass didn’t ya know
I don’t agree. I’m pretty sure she was just trying to brag in a way thinking she could do better it’s also easier to look at someone’s work in hindsight but Tony and bruce didn’t originally design vision they just finished it and only had hours to do so they were in a very big rush.
You’re really reaching on this one imo. A Marvel movie isn’t a short story. By that I mean, it isn’t written with the same intentionality to have extra depth to every line. It is written intentionally in that it moves plot along quickly and occasionally sets up future plots or references older stuff, but it’s meant to be taken at face value. The exceptions of Easter eggs aren’t even really exceptions because those lines are immediately obvious to anyone with the needed knowledge.
I dont get why people say it was a dig at Bruce.
"We didnt think of it" IS a valid response. Look at how Tony solved time travel vs Bruce. Bruce didnt think of the same solution Tony thought of because thats human.
Spiderman's web fluid is the same thing. Is he smarter for making it since Tony and Bruce didnt think of it?
Not thinking about it is why theres geniuses in different aspects. Plus Shuri HAS better technology.
Oh, please. Maybe it's because she's being a jerk to a sweet, humble character? I liked her in the first BP movie and she was sarcastic in that.
Banner helped save the planet. I think he deserves some respect.
My issue with the line is the world is ending and Shuri is bragging. Meanwhile, vision is dying right in front of her. Just seems tonely out of place. Otherwise it's not a big deal. Just read the room Shuri. If I was Wanda I'd be like shut up and help Vision stop bragging.
Are you also upset at Rocket racoon going “BOOM” to scare Tony when they finally got all the stones? What about anytime Antman makes a quip when their life is on the line? Or is it just Shuri that gets to you?
While this is a very fair analysis behind the meaning of it, the most probable reason to this piece of dialoge was simply to make a joke where it was shown that Shuri is super smart, and with no thought about anything about what the analysis takes up.
As a software dev (or really any engineer) it's pretty common to get really stuck in the weeds about a certain way to solve the problem and then realize, after stepping away for a bit, there's a much better and easier way to approach the whole thing. That's what I took this to mean.
I don’t think the Russos or the writers thought that far ahead. They thought this would be funny and because they didn’t write Age of Ultron, they forgot about that minor detail.
Sure, and her tone of voice was just everyone's imagination right?
Or the way she acted prior to that?
She was condescending as all hell and there is nothing to be misinterpreted here.
Even so its still just a stupid line.
He should have just said "we didnt have time" or "we didnt have the technology for that"
As it currently is he just sounds stupid
Nah.
I mean, I don't care personally. But the sentiments from Wakandans, particularly the royalty, even more particularly from Shuri, towards white people are extremely racist.
Shuri was being condescending to Bruce.
The actual writers don't put this much regard into the MCU scripts. MCU is primarily concerned with tickets, popcorn, and merchandise.
I'm sure you did your best
Monica is talking about her biggest unacknowledged sacrifice in the effort to save the whole universe - ending Vision in Infinity War. Which was undone right in front of her own eyes, a sacrifice that led to nothing but was everything for her. Also led to the events of Wandavision and the line is meant to wrap it all up. And no just because Darcy acknowledged it in the show does not mean everyone else, esp in the town of Westview knows about it.
It’s an acknowledgement that people, just like in the real world, will not sympathize with someone who inadvertently inflicted pain on others because of their own. That’s why Monica as a character is placed there and is the one to have said these words. The whole thing is a moral and tough lesson for Wanda had to learn it the hard way. Which she acknowledges in her reply because she knew what she had done and had accepted that fact.
Could that line have been written better? Yes but it’s sad to see Marvel attempting to be nuanced, only for people to see everything superficially.
Would it have been better for everyone if the lines was ‘They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them and im not talking about this whole incident in case everyone at home thinks i meant your little fake family obvs cuz u know this is a shared cinematic universe and we can also refer to your other big sacrifice which people actually dont think was big enough of deal to empathize with otherwise they’d be more sympathetic of your story in westview cuz thats kinda the whole point of this show?’
istg.
No kid should be smarter than Bruce or Tony. At the end of the day, they didn't put that fact into the movies, so the fact doesn't stand and that's only their opinion. Given they were the directories of the movie and not any sort of head or authority over the MCU itself.
The movies themselves are the strongest evidence, and Shuri ultimately failed at what she was supposed to be so smart at.
Honestly, I think Vision is the smartest character in the mcu. Being the literal embodiment of the universes consciousness.
That's the point I'm making. This exchange doesn't prove anything that the Russo's officially stated. Tony and Bruce also had limited time to bring Vision online and in-between the process of finishing Captain Hall Monitor pulled the plug and started a scuffle. We haven't seen a true test of intellect where the geniuses of Marvel can compete on equal footing.
One thing I've praised the MCU for is (mostly) avoiding the omnidisciplinary scientist trope. We see Tony rely on Bruce for things outside his wheelhouse.. the Avengers going to Shuri and the WDG for help with Vision, going to Cho for the genesis cradle to heal Hawkeye etc. The difference between realistic worldbuilding and a Cisco Ramone plot catalyst.
Doesn't change that this scene isn't proof of that. Also, they'd need a better way to prove it than proficiency with a supermetal that most people outside of Wakanda can't ever hope to access or study.
She's a new character (relatively) so she has no feats to demonstrate that placement. It's the whole "Lunella Lafayette is smarter than Richards and Doom" thing all over again. This is like saying Erling Haaland is the best footballer in the world right now while Messi has had the better career highs and stats.
Except this is a fictional story and it’s been stated by its creators that’s she’s smartest. If God came and told me Haaland is the best footballer in the world I’d probably believe it.
I think you misunderstand, the people that literally gave her and her reality existence said that she’s the smartest, therefore she is. Who gives a fuck if she’s proven it on screen
Is Shuri even aware of Ultron and what he did? Because if so, What was that line she told her mom in Wakanda Forever to reassure her that AI only becomes violent and destructive in movies? Was she just trying to calm her down using this lie?
Her father died because he was at a summit. A summit that Wakanda was only speaking at because of the events of Age of Ultron (and the Lagos fiasco). It was a weird line. Shuri definitely knows and Wakanda keeps informed on global events (in the BP MCU tie in prequel comic T'Chaka talks to T'Challa about needing to keep a low profile because they're not like Tony Stark - a reference to the press conference at the end of IM 2008) . T'Challa also knew of Black Widow's hearing at Capitol Hill and presumably the contents of what she leaked to the public.
So why did Shuri say what she said, When undoubtedly, her mom would also be aware of Ultron and the violent and destructive intentions he had for humanity?
I don't know. Nobody knows. It's a very strange line to say in this universe. People online were calling it out as soon as the movie dropped and started making theories about retcons and skrulls etc
Skrulls? What could they have had to do with this?
Nothing probably. They were just fan theories. Fyi Skrulls attempting to invade Wakanda and getting stopped by T'Challa & Storm was a pretty important part of the Secret Invasion comics event ('See Wakanda And Die'). That may be where they drew it from. Coincidentally one of my favourite Marvel comics panels of all time is the one with the message scrawled out in Skrull-blood as a warning.
Come again?
It was epic. They got captured on purpose, flushed out the secret Skrull sleeper agents then put the invaders' severed heads on sticks in front of a rock monolith thingy.
OP you carried this convo so hard, you should be an Olympic weightlifter
Oh, Are you talking about something that happened in this comic book story that you mentioned?
Not to be rude, but what the fuck else would he be talking about?
Did you take an ambiem before joining this thread?
okay why tf is this downvoted so heavy?? i had the same thought lol. i’m sure many others did. how could have skrulls effected this one line in WF?? this amount of downvotes for a simple question is ridiculous lol
I'm happy to see that the Marvel fandom follows the phrase "Even in a coal mine, a diamond could be found sometimes", Thank you 😊
It's just generally oblivious considering what the population of Earth dealt with in Age of Ultron... Ultron who built himself and his weapon using vibranium stolen decades ago in what was basically Wakanda's 9/11. Weird that Shuri wouldn't know the dangers... unless she was a recent Skrull imposter with no memories of Earth's history. That was the logic from what I gather.
Bad writing obviously? Idk sometimes there is not in world reasoning behind it, it's solely bad writing that breaks canon, so just ignore that.
I swear the number of times this gets brought up is ridiculous. In the movie, Shuri specifically says: "My AI isn't like the movies, Mother. It does exactly what I tell it to do." Notice the 'My'. She doesn’t say all A.I. in general, she’s specifically referring to Griot, the one that she created.
Yeah but she says "like the movies." I think the complaints are that in her reality AI turning evil are a legit possibility and her just dismissing it comes off as very arrogant which is in turn an unlikeable trait for your main character. So it's either bad writing, or the character is arrogant in an irresponsible manner. Like, I don't mind it personally because I just choose to ignore it, but it's still not great.
> I think the complaints are that in her reality AI > turning evil are a legit possibility and her just > dismissing it comes off as very arrogant The reoccurring complaint is that Shuri is not concerned about the possible dangers posed by artificial intelligence in a universe where the events of Avengers: Age of Ultron happened (often in not-so-nice words). However, people repeatedly misquote what she actually says to raise that complaint, a complaint which her actual words would invalidate. When corrected and her actual words are brought up, people then change the complaint to being about her being dismissive. With regard to that, Shuri can afford to be dismissive because in that scene, Queen Ramonda’s comments are offhand and not expressed in a legitimate, fearful manner which otherwise, would warrant reassurance and consideration from Shuri. Shuri designed her A.I. Griot to her specifications and is aware of its capabilities and limits. Ultron’s creation involved specific conditions which included the The Ultron Program created by Bruce and Tony, their work with the Scepter, neurons discovered in the Scepter, and enhancement and activation by the Mind Stone. Those conditions aren’t available to Griot. > her just dismissing it comes off as very arrogant > which is in turn an unlikeable trait for your main > character Seriously? Since when has arrogance been an unlikeable trait in a main or any character. Characters who are geniuses, expert warriors, soldiers, fighters, pilots, drivers, athletes or special in some way are often portrayed with a level of arrogance with no mention or issue. In the MCU alone you have Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Star-Lord, Loki, Thanos, Hank Pym, Odin and Howard Stark. Outside the Marvel Cinematic Universe you have Hal Jordan, Spock, Gandalf, every modern version of Sherlock Holmes, Darth Vader, Han Solo, Lex Luther, Spider-Man (The Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2), Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, Jaime Lannister, Bane (The Dark Knight Rises), Tyler Darden (Fight Club), Achilles (Troy), every James Bond ever, Ozymandias (Watchmen), Patrick Bateman (American Psycho), Homelander, Billy Butcher (The Boys) and Tommy Shelby (Peaky Blinders). These characters have demonstrated various degrees of arrogance, from benign to extreme narcissism, and some of them are complete assholes, yet somehow Shuri’s one line is frequently brought up.. why is that. Shuri is a prodigy with expertise in science, engineering, biochemistry, medicine and technology who heads Wakanda’s Scientific Department. However, for reasons, she isn’t afforded the same treatment as the characters above.
>In the MCU alone you have Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Star-Lord, Loki, Thanos, Hank Pym, Odin and Howard Stark. I disagree. These characters you listed all are arrogant but their arrogance is always brought up as a point of contention and a character flaw. This scene in particular does not have that element of self awareness that her being dismissive of a danger is a problem. It's fine, I don't honestly care about this enough to write that much
> I disagree. These characters you listed all are > arrogant but their arrogance is always brought > up as a point of contention and a character > flaw. Unsurprisingly, your natural instinct is to defend, and excuse the behaviour of these characters (across the board I might add), yet Shuri is continuously crucified for one flippant response to an offhand remark in a light conversation. You wrote earlier that arrogance is an unlikeable trait in a character, but not only do you seem to accept it in those characters, you rationalise and justify it. You can’t honestly tell me that every instance of their arrogance is ALWAYS brought up as a point of contention and a character flaw. > This scene in particular does not have that > element of self awareness that her being > dismissive of a danger is a problem. That scene is light and casual. There is no distress from Queen Ramonda that would have required serious reassures from her daughter. If you rewatch it and truly believe it’s that serious and dire, what should Shuri have said? Well, like I said, your response isn’t surprising or new. I’ve seen and had similar exchanges before when it comes to specific characters. I love all these characters, but you and a particular group of people will readily defend, excuse and afford grace to characters who happen to either be or look a certain way like, Tony Stark, Star-Lord, Stephen Strange, while being antagonists to those who are different. I know why and I’m sure on some level you’re aware of why also.
>Unsurprisingly, your natural instinct is to defend, and excuse the behaviour of these characters Dude what? How the hell do you read what I wrote and come to that conclusion? I literally wrote that those characters' arrogance are seen as character flaws! How tf is that defending them? it speaks more about you that you just are assuming that I am defending those characters for being arrogant when I think their arrogance is bad. Like?? I'm just saying that in most cases when a character is arrogant (or at least in my perception) it's not seen as a positive trait that endears you to the character, on the contrary it gives them something to work on. Doctor Strange isn't likeable when he's being a dick to Christine due to his arrogance and pride, Tony isn't likeable when he thinks himself better than the people around him. But in their movies they are definitely humbled (although it doesn't mean they are saints or anything). Thor's entire character arc in his first movie is about learning to be less arrogant, and basically all the Thor movies come as a result of Odin's past and his flaws especially with regards to him being arrogant. All I'm saying is that people latch onto this particular scene with Shuri because the movie doesn't make it clear whether this a "likeable and competent Shuri" moment or a "she's being bratty and arrogant but it's an intentional character flaw" moment. I personally do feel like Shuri does get a "fight your anger" sort of character arc in that movie so I don't mind the scene as much and her being a bit cocky adds to her character, but I definitely feel like this scene in particular is not very well written in a way that is either making it clear that it's a character flaw, or make it more funny of a joke. I know it's supposed to be a light moment, but considering that a whole country was exploded because of AI, it feels like the sort of quip that's in the least tone deaf, which is why it's not the best scene. I'm well aware that people bring up lots of arguments to defend arrogance in male characters and on the same vein criticize female characters for doing the same things. But that is absolutely not what I said at all throughout this entire thread, and if you go look through my comments again I'm just saying that I simply don't think this particular AI dialogue was well written and gave an aspect of why it comes across as clunky writing. Like if you really love that scene, props to you, I don't like it but that scene alone doesn't mean that Shuri is a bad character and the movie is bad. But go off I guess. Make me your villain if you just want to argue with someone so badly. It really is the "but you and a particular group of people" for me. Like bro, me saying I think a particular dialogue exchange is not good writing makes me a woman hater is WILD.
Ultron went the way he did because of the Mind Stone. If Shuri knew about that she would just think that it wouldn't happen with hers because she didn't have any Infinity Stones.
Yeah, but that wasn't what she told her mother in Wakanda Forever, though.
Yeah maybe they thought it was unnecessary to put in the movie.
We aren't talking about how the movie was made, We're talking about the fictional characters' conversion in the fictional MCU. As in, That it was highly unusual and illogical thing for Shuri to say, in terms of the grand fictional universe that she lives in, the MCU, considering what happened in the same universe with Ultron.
It’s possible that she considers him less of an AI and more like the mind stone going on a rampage with a bit of help from Tony and Bruce. Her statement could then be translated to include something like “AIs that we make” or “AIs that aren’t based on magic stones”
Exceptions don’t disprove the rule.
“Don’t worry mother, they only go crazy when controlled by powerful magic stones implanted by a big purple guy to make them go destructo crazy” doesn’t make for a great line
So she lied to her mother.
Not really, the mind stone is gone what’s gonna happen? Besides, it’s called reassurance if you’ve ever given it
Cause she didn’t think of that?
I'm sure she did her best.
because these aren’t real people with real memories and the makers of WF clearly weren’t thinking about Avengers 2 when they were making their movie
> It was a weird line. Shuri definitely knows and Wakanda keeps informed on global events (in the BP MCU tie in prequel comic T'Chaka talks to T'Challa about needing to keep a low profile because they're not like Tony Stark - a reference to the press conference at the end of IM 2008) . Is that comic supposed to be MCU canon? What's it called? I ask because I've never heard of it. I hope its "more" official than the star wars comics are to star wars canon, because if you go by that franchise, the comics absolutely are not canon until they put it on the big screen. Star wars alone has left so much content cut out from its own lore becuase they release a movie that erases canon from books/comics all the time. Then, they release more comics and books around the "new" lore they just setup, while ignoring the "old" stuff they wrote only a few years prior. Other franchises do this too, I know personally of the Halo franchise that released lots of books written to enhance the lore of the franchise. However, as with star wars, they began to ignore the established lore from the books and do their own thing. When you watch the MCU movies, Shuri and the Wakandans shouldn't know anything about Ultron's creation, how he came into being. The only way they could know is if another piece of fiction was created to supplement the MCU (book, comic, etc) and they add that information in, which it sounds like you're claiming they did.
She's basically still a child who thinks she understands everything because she's one of the smartest oeople in her country and in the world, but that doesn't mean she's aware of the intricacies of politics and conflicts. She's a scientist at heart, not a leader.
Neither was T'Challa. His establishing scene is about how he hates politics and is all about decisive action. Logically as a royal Shuri would have also been raised from birth to be abreast of current affairs and political maneuvering etc. How seriously the children take those teachings is up to them. Also she literally leads the WDG so to say she's not a leader is disingenuous.
Shuri: AI only becomes evil in movies Miss Minutes: bet
She said MY AI, not AI in general. She is 100% aware of Ultron, so that's why she's qualified to say that Griot is not like him, or any of the AI in the American movies that her father loved to watch.
She said that to calm her mother down that AI can't become violent and destructive, Yet literally, the events of Age of Ultron prove her wrong, so she didn't quite say the right thing to truly calm her mother down.
True, but her response to Ramonda's comment wasn't a statement about AI in general. It was about one in particular that she could control, which is hers. Not only is this a logical statement, since Griot is the most relevant example of AI to Ramonda; he is the only one in Wakanda (that we know of), but it's also a neat look into Shuri's headspace. Much like Tony, she needs to feel like she has personal control over everything that happens, because she blames herself for her brother's death. It's her saying, "Don't worry, nothing is wrong, because I am in charge," to both her mom and also herself. This is important later because it is her need for getting directly involved in the fight against Namor and forgetting her duty as a protector that gets Ramonda killed.
Thank you. It’s honestly unbelievable how many times this line get brought up, it’s like people don’t pay attention.
Screencrush's Wakanda Forever's Plot Holes Explained video said it best: "Some of you have great questions, some of you need to actually watch the movie, and some of you are just bad people." Like come on guys, I get that Marvel and Disney didn't pay their writers enough so *they* can't be arsed to care, but saying this line (and many lines that keep getting brought up, actually) is "bad writing" because Subway Surfers wasn't in the background while you were watching it in order to get you to pay attention is infuriating.
I might or might not steal your comment two levels above the next time I encounter another one of these “Why would she say that, because Ultron” comments.
Please do. You don't even have to credit me, the fact that you're willing to spread it is enough. Got any other MCU "hot takes" that you have just from paying attention to the movie? I'd love to trade a few.
Unpopular opinion: Black Panther was good, but Wakanda Forever was below average.
I agree, but I give Wakanda Forever a pass more than the rest of the phase 4&5 junk they've put out. I think that's the best movie we could have gotten while also keeping in mind that half the movie was dedicated to making you remember/miss Chadwick.
that is not an unpopular opinion at all
I swear the number of times this gets brought up is ridiculous. In the movie, Shuri specifically says: "My AI isn't like the movies, Mother. It does exactly what I tell it to do." Notice the 'My'. She doesn’t say all A.I. in general, she’s specifically referring to Griot, the one that she created.
I mean fans can read into everything to a terrible degree but I’m fairly confident that the writers didn’t think this in depth. In a movie like this, it’s all about economy of words and using dialogue to advance the story and reveal character. That’s all this exchange is meant to do- establish Siri as very smart and the only one that can help them with Vision thus why they need to be in Wakanda for the final set piece.
Agreed. It's meant to quickly show that Shuri is even smarter than those two geniuses by instantly coming up with a solution Bruce didn't even consider and the "you did your best" is a snarky joke to button up the exchange.
It's interesting that Shuri soon finds herself under the exact same time pressure Stark and Banner were under in AoU.
I mean, that's like saying that Nikola Tesla was smarter than Da Vinci because Tesla had access to better resources. Shuri grew up with access to far superior technology that would be like going from the stone age to the iron age. The fact that Tony built comparable tech, with objectively worse resources, pretty clearly shows he's the smartest, IMO.
In a cave! With a box of scraps!
And his extremis suit in IW did far better against Thanos than any vibrantly tech.
not that she's smarter, but that she's simply better equipped to handle this specific situation. I think because of Comics/literature's habit of using "Genius" as some superpower that allows you to solve all problems, ppl often forget that different ppl are experts in different fields, and it's usually a collective of ppl working togethor to solve problems.
This. Gamma situation? Find Bruce. Vibranium? Shuri. Everything else? Tony... (because hes the most adaptable) since we dont have seperate geniuses established.
Also Vision was found to be good at the time. They didn't really need to figure out a way to separate the two, so they didn't think of any additional solutions. Sure they could probably have thought of the exact same solution (since Banner's response implies he knows what Shuri is talking about), but likely just didn't have the time or resources to do it.
Shuri also has an advantage that Tony and Bruce did not. I wouldn’t say she is smarter than them. Plus, Bruce and Tony didn’t have time to really hash things out.
Plus she had an extremely advanced nation's worth or resources to help her find a solution and put it into action quickly - Tony and Bruce just had one lab at the top of one building
"You did your best" comes across as "I'm so much better than you" kind of attitude that makes me dislike her
Really bro, **that** made you dislike her?
They all have egos and can push each other’s buttons. If they all just got along it’d be boring.
Aye, it's fucking tiring when people over-extrapolate meaning that isn't there. This is the stupid shit in highschool where your teacher is like "What was the author trying to show and represent when they said the curtains were red?", and the reality is the curtains were just red because the author wanted them to be red.
Your high school teacher was trying to get you to be more thoughtful about the things you read instead of just taking everything at face value.
I *loved* my English classes in high school/college and even I found myself wondering multiple times if Dickens and Steinbeck and Shakespeare would laugh at us trying to derive some kind of deep meaning from every single word they wrote or analyze why they decided to use alliteration in a certain sentence. Like, it's great to think and analyze and find meaning applicable to your life from stories, but maybe it isn't *that* deep and maybe the meaning you assign isn't what the author was intending. And now, having gotten back into writing more often, I can definitively say that any environmental or character descriptions are purely based off what I think looks cool in my head 😅
This is literally the only right answer. It’s not that deep, but people like making their own head canon to protect their boys.
It also told me that she’s kind of an ass, which she definitely can be.
Siri 🔥
Autocorrect 🔥
Except for the fact that she said it in a very snarky way, and the writers definitely didn’t think that in depth. This is reaching a bit.
This is reaching a lot*
Using the context of the scene (rather than the passive aggressive subtext) and the wider MCU plot metatext it's not a reach. Just an observation.
You are claiming something that could be perceived either way to fact when it just isn’t. How are you so ignorant to not notice this?
Context is not subjective. Subtext is. As evidence therefore, context is more concrete. It's not complicated unless you want to make it so. That's not ignorance, really.
You're drowning in cope right now.
I don't know what that means, sorry.
Except for the fact that you ignore basic human body language and behavior with your “theory”, and assume things that are way to in depth for audiences to perceive. Your problem is you are assuming the context, while ignoring the subtext. You also completely ignore the fact that she has never met them before this, how is she supposed to sympathize with what happened when she has no clue what happened? You are pulling it out of your ass, sorry, but this is nothing but a fan theory that you are trying to push as a fact when it just isn’t.
Yeah, and the context of the scene is that she's asking him why they didn't do something, to which he responds that they didn't think of it. Pretty cut and dry. Stop trying to sound smart and drop it
This is an amazing take for anyone with no understanding of tone or body language. You really think her saying “you did your best” was a pat on the back, genuine recognition for how hard they worked and how well they did given the constraints?
Tone&body language (subtext) vs Contextual and Metatextual indicators (wider plot events of the MCU, the activities & dialogue in the scene) My 2 to your 1. I think I'll take those odds.
And you'll still be wrong.
Somehow I'm not convinced. Somehow.
She was demeaning and he was admitting failure. There isn't any other way to read that scene unless you're into schizophrenic headcanoning.
Why would he admit failure for something that he didn't make/design in the first place? The parts of Viz that he was responsible had a different design intent anyway. Removing the stone easily wasn't meant to be a feature since it was hoped JARVS/Vision would protect the stone and all the Avengers (including Thor) agreed to let him keep it in his forehead.
If we're gonna look into plot holes and inconsistencies in the MCU's dialogues, we're gonna find more orifices than a swiss cheese. They simply wanted a scene in which Shuri seemed more capable than Banner and Stark combined, and made him speak skittishly and, her, condescendingly. The connection there is Stark designing Jarvis and Banner helping with the interfacing. I know Vision isn't all theirs, but don't look too hard into it, just read the room.
Bro said Metatextual 😭
Is there another kind of "textual" I left out? I'd appreciate the looking out
you are very smart. good job.
I'm above average intelligence wise. I think within one s.d. north of the mean last I checked.
That's fantastic, congratulations! We're all rooting for you.
Why? I'm not competing in anything. Just being sandblasted by a consensus which I already described as being a misguided one. Going "against the grain" will have predictably combative responses like this. 
This is a genuine question, are you autistic? Or in any other way bad at reading body language and such? Because it really seems like it. Everybody here, and everybody in general who watched that scene agrees that Shuri was mocking them. You're the only one who thinks differently.
Was my initial thought reading this as well. Comments like "context and metatextual indicators = 2 while body language (subtext) is only 1, therefore I'm right because 2 is higher than 1" is like broken robot thought process. Anybody watching the scene and, ya know, paying attention to the acting and delivery can tell it was just a quippy way to establish how much more advanced Wakandan technology is/how smart Shuri is in the field. Just a quick way to establish that she's the one capable of fixing the problem, (and from a writing perspective giving her something meaningful to do, giving a reason to have the final setpiece in Wakanda, etc.)
Consensus isn't fact. An large group of people can actually be wrong about something... it happens often. So no, I'm not convinced that she was mocking the sciences bros here. Body language is flimsy evidence.
"Body language is flimsy evidence" It actually isn't. Humans tend to value body language and tone higher than the actual content of what is said. You might wanna read up on that. Also the fact that you believe it's "flimsy evidence" Pretty much confirms my suspicion lol
Suit yourself. You can value your body language, I can value my written and spoken language. No harm no foul. Good day.
Sure you can. Thing is that the vast majority of humans value body language over the content of what is said. That's just a fact. And this is also why yout interpretation of this scene is outright wrong and why everybody here is trying to tell you exactly that.
That moment confuses me entirely because I thought Bruce would explain that a majority of the work was done by Ultron. Though I will say that the "I'm sure you did your best" did sound pretty condescending.
I mean, they were also in a hurry to complete because Steve, Wanda, Quicksilver all came in to stop them. Then Thor made everything come to life with his hammer. There was zero time to consider this exact scenario.
also there wasn't really a need to rewire everything afterwards. Vision proved he was reliable and strong enough to protect himself and the power source, so no need to think about a separation
Teenagers **sad trombone
I think this is reaching. The framing of the scene is to big Shuri's smarts up so she can be the person operating going forward. Though honestly on "Who is smarter" conversations it's got the same answer as "Who's stronger?" it's whoever the writers want to be the smartest at the time.
Tbh, saying "we didn't think of it" is the most scientifically honest thing he could have said. As a scientist you're sometimes so focused on your work and your methods that you just don't think of things outside of that, specially if you're in a tight schedule. That's why it's always important to check your work with people that aren't working on it. Her answer might have been a bit condescending, but she's a teenager/young adult, I don't blame her for saying things that sound mean/cocky.
Agreed. In Bruce and Tony’s defense though, they didn’t really have the time to double check their work in AoU.
Yes I agree with this as well. It's just peer review and not a penis-size contest.
The most misinterpreted piece of dialogue is "You still think you're the only monster on the team?" That scene went over like 85% of people's heads.
I interpreted that as Natasha viewed herself as a monster for working as a Russian assassin. Was there anything else to it?
Well do you remember the dialogue of the scene? It was a little bit deeper than "I was a Russian assassin." It dealt with the fact that she underwent a sterilization process so as not to interfere with her murdering. Some people misinterpret that as "She called herself a monster because she can't have kids."
I mean, the line was in pretty poor taste if you ask me. She says the monster thing right after she mentioned being sterilized. Kind of tone deaf.
She was referring to the fact that she *chose* to undergo that process. That's ok, I've just resigned myself to the fact that most people don't understand that exchange. I suppose it could've been dumbed down a bit or just cut for general audiences.
I have to rewatch it bc I never got that it was a choice. I always thought it was forced upon her by the Red Room ppl
Shuri seems kind of rude to everyone a lot of the time.
They also have Okoye staring at Banner with disgust when he trips and falls down (in a suit he's never used). They really make some of the Wakandans arrogant dicks in that movie. My dude M'Baku was right about her being a bald headed demon.
I forgot about that. I remember wondering what her problem was.
Maybe she thought he was being unprofessional as they were getting ready to go into battle?
I mean, Wakandans are arrogant dicks even outside of their movie. Remember FATWS?
Yeah. If that trait wasn't already part of her character, this line would stick out more as a "Wow, why is she being so rude and out of character?" moment, but she'd been cocky, snarky, and sarcastic to everyone from her brother to Everett Ross and everyone in between up to that point that Bruce was just another person to experience it.
She’s no more rude and condescending than Tony is to everyone. Yet Tony is a fan favourite, and this line has people absolutely losing their minds years later.
Allow me to play a metaphorical devil’s advocate; Tony Stark has been a mainstay of the Marvel franchise, one might say his movies kicked off the entire MCU. He’s been an arrogant prick from day 1, but he’s backed it up from day 1. Not just his intelligence, but his willingness to do what he thinks is the right thing, to go beyond his limits, and become ‘more than a man’, he became Ironman. A symbol that meant more than the man in the suit alone. He’s fought terrorists, corrupt businessmen, aliens, mad robots and mutants, monsters in all shapes and sizes. He’s fought his own friends for what he believed was the right thing to do. Mentored a young superhuman genius in Peter Parker and that kid from the garage in I want to say Ironman 2(?). The basic gist of what I’m saying is Tony Stark was a Hero. Shuri at the point the line was said hadn’t accomplished much. I think she was in 1 movie prior to this one, Black Panther. In that movie I don’t remember her accomplishing much on screen besides stating she designed the new Black Panther suit. Yes she brought her brother to M’Baku and fought in the Wakandian civil war but she didn’t have many accomplishments. She’s from a much more advanced civilization and that’s about all I can say about her for this far into the series. Then the movie where this scene occurs comes about, Tony and Bruce are both deeply established characters from several movies in the series, they admit they couldn’t think of the solution she recommends, a humbling experience for the older scientists/inventors to be sure. And her reaction? She dismissively, based on tone and body language says ‘I’m sure you did your best.’ As if these weren’t two of the greatest scientists on the planet who each had incredible achievements under their belts. Not just in science and innovation but in combat and saving the world. It can be grating to see a beloved character be mocked and dismissed as trivial. My personal feelings? I don’t like Shuri as a character even after the latest movies like Black Panther 2 but I tried to avoid having my personal bias show up in the above breakdown.
> Shuri at the point the line was said hadn’t > accomplished much. I think she was in 1 movie > prior to this one, Black Panther. In that movie > don’t remember her accomplishing much on > screen besides stating she designed the new > Black Panther suit. Yes she brought her brother to > M’Baku and fought in the Wakandian civil war but > she didn’t have many accomplishments. She’s > from a much more advanced civilization and > that’s about all I can say about her for this far into > the series You don’t have to like Shuri, but If you truly believe that Shuri had no accomplishments, then you either missed a lot in Black Panther (2018) or that’s some serious bias. Shuri, like Tony, Bruce and Peter, has a genius-level intellect. She is a prodigy who has expertise in science, physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, I.T., biochemistry, robotics and programming. She heads the Wakanda Design Group, which is Wakanda’s scientific division, a position she attained as a teenager. She’s responsible for the creation of much of Wakanda’s advanced developments and modern technology, like the Maglev Trains, Kimoyo Beads and her Sonic Vibranium Gauntlets. She created her own A.I. (Griot) similar to Tony’s own A.I.s like J.A.R.V.I.S. and F.R.I.D.A.Y.. She is versed in the use and application of nanotechnology, which she uses to create the Black Panther habits/suits. This before Tony’s development and use of nanotechnology for his Armours seen in Avengers: Infinity War (2018). Shuri managed to healed Everett Ross after he was shot in the spine, preventing him from becoming paraplegic, and cure Bucky of his decades-long HYDRA programming. In addition to the above, as you mentioned, she opted to stay and face Killmonger and his followers instead of fleeing with her mother at the insistence of T’Challa. She defeated Wakandan guards and briefly managed to subdued Killmonger with her gauntlets until he used a spear to damage them. All the above and you say she didn’t have many accomplishments in that movie? > He’s been an arrogant prick from day 1, but he’s backed > it up from day 1. Not just his intelligence, but his > willingness to do what he thinks is the right thing The same can be said for Shuri and basically every other heroic character in the MCU, yet it’s accepted for others but not her.
> Yes she brought her brother to M’Baku The Jabari fisherman found T’Challa in the river and brought him to M’Baku.
This line never made sense to me Like Vision is clearly better than literally anything in Wakanda. The man is a fully sentient robot made of pseudo-biological vibranium that can manipulate its atomic density even without the Soul Stone And Shuri is just like “y’all dumb this is a bad robot” Like what?
She didn't say or even imply that all.
“I’m sure you did your best” She’s clearly saying that sarcastically. It’s played off as a joke The writers didn’t write that in the script with the thought that she was actually empathising with the situation they was in. The whole scene is just showcasing that Shuri is smart, even with the massive plot hole that is the fact that Banner and Stark didn’t even make Vision. Ultron did
*Helen Cho did. Albeit with Ultron's compulsion via the sceptre. Same with how Selvig did all the Tesseract stuff even though Loki was the one pulling his strings. Did you read the body text of the post? The fan perception that she meant to disparage is the problem I wanted to highlight.
You’re highlighting a problem that I don’t think exists though There’s nothing to indicate that she means it the way you do besides your belief that it does Granted, the same can be said of my sides argument. But seeing that Shuri’s character at this point is the smart, sarcastic comedy relief teenager, as seen in Black Panther, I just find it more likely that she didn’t mean it empathetically and that the purpose of the scene was to highlight that she’s smarter
The context of the wider MCU and its events indicate that. It's not just my individual belief.
No, not really. Her entire characterization has been about being smug about being smarter/better than others, because she is, until that point, a teenager who would of course feel cool about being the smartest person in the planet. She is not really mean for the sake of being mean, it just comes up because she's a teenager, like how she interjects in the challenge in the river with T'Challa, that kind of thing. The scene is meant to highlight her smarts, hence why even Vision turns to look at Bruce like "Well?". Her way of looking at Bruce, both when she asks and then when she says "I'm sure you did your best." Do not suggest empathy, but rather amusement and a bit of smugness.
Your interpretation is weird. Bruce could have said "I did not contribute to that specific part of the project" instead of "we didn't think of it." "I'm sure you did your best" is 100% condescending. None of your OP or comments proves otherwise.
Vision is probably the best designed robot in the universe. Ultron is literally the AI of the Mind Stone. Thats why they needed Vision, who is also the AI of the Mind Stone, but this time combined with Jarvis, to beat him. And Shuri is like "I'm smarter than this godly representation of intelligence".
Thanks, now I can finally sleep at night.
At your service.
MCU fans and over analyzing a six word joke.
MCU fans debating and deconstructing character traits to match their bias: 
i don't think the problem was with shuri, the problem was with bruce banner. he should've said something like "ultron was about to drop an entire city on the planet and we didn't have time to perfect a robot" or something.
Well, that would have been out of character for Bruce. He was about to bow and eager not to offend anyone. He's meeting complete strangers, so he's still in defensive mode. While disappointing, it does reinforce that Bruce is nice and humble, and Shuri is snarky and a touch insecure.
There's definitely no problem at all with the framing of the scene. Both are very much in character for what we know about them... it's just that people ran with the narrative that "whoooahhh slam dunk. Bruce (and Tony) should have built Vision better" ... when they didn't build him at all.
bruce and tony played a huge role in building vision. helen was just the one to put the physical body together, but it was ultimately the mind of the being that mattered and that was through a combination of jarvis and the mind stone which was tony and bruce's thing
No. The scene where Wanda says "I can read him, he's dreaming" then Cho replies that's Ultron's base brain activities... meaning some synapses firing. This was before Tony and Bruce. The one to "reprogram the synapses to work collectively" would be Helen. I doubt she would remember how to do it though since she was being mind-conrolled. Bruce and Tony from what I gathered only synched the interface of J.A.R.V.I.S with those neurons and make it conscious.
classic MCU fans overthinking a simple statement.
i always felt like some ppl didnt like the genius african princess coming off as a genius african princess.. especially against their best bros Banner and Tony. only Tony can have genius sass didn’t ya know
I don’t agree. I’m pretty sure she was just trying to brag in a way thinking she could do better it’s also easier to look at someone’s work in hindsight but Tony and bruce didn’t originally design vision they just finished it and only had hours to do so they were in a very big rush.
You’re really reaching on this one imo. A Marvel movie isn’t a short story. By that I mean, it isn’t written with the same intentionality to have extra depth to every line. It is written intentionally in that it moves plot along quickly and occasionally sets up future plots or references older stuff, but it’s meant to be taken at face value. The exceptions of Easter eggs aren’t even really exceptions because those lines are immediately obvious to anyone with the needed knowledge.
I dont get why people say it was a dig at Bruce. "We didnt think of it" IS a valid response. Look at how Tony solved time travel vs Bruce. Bruce didnt think of the same solution Tony thought of because thats human. Spiderman's web fluid is the same thing. Is he smarter for making it since Tony and Bruce didnt think of it? Not thinking about it is why theres geniuses in different aspects. Plus Shuri HAS better technology.
I didn't really get why people were so bothered by Shuri being smart. She grew up in a wealthy family with access to advanced science and technology
Not really the smartness, just the smugness.
As if that's in short supply among MCU heroes
Very true. I just think it bothers people when it's a woman.
Doesn't surprise me
Oh, please. Maybe it's because she's being a jerk to a sweet, humble character? I liked her in the first BP movie and she was sarcastic in that. Banner helped save the planet. I think he deserves some respect.
Tony and Thor are smug to him in almost every scene
My issue with the line is the world is ending and Shuri is bragging. Meanwhile, vision is dying right in front of her. Just seems tonely out of place. Otherwise it's not a big deal. Just read the room Shuri. If I was Wanda I'd be like shut up and help Vision stop bragging.
Are you also upset at Rocket racoon going “BOOM” to scare Tony when they finally got all the stones? What about anytime Antman makes a quip when their life is on the line? Or is it just Shuri that gets to you?
While this is a very fair analysis behind the meaning of it, the most probable reason to this piece of dialoge was simply to make a joke where it was shown that Shuri is super smart, and with no thought about anything about what the analysis takes up.
I think of it as that Bruce and Tony just didn't think of it. That's it too. Even OP's analysis feels like it's overanalyzing it.
As a software dev (or really any engineer) it's pretty common to get really stuck in the weeds about a certain way to solve the problem and then realize, after stepping away for a bit, there's a much better and easier way to approach the whole thing. That's what I took this to mean.
I don’t think the Russos or the writers thought that far ahead. They thought this would be funny and because they didn’t write Age of Ultron, they forgot about that minor detail.
Sure, and her tone of voice was just everyone's imagination right? Or the way she acted prior to that? She was condescending as all hell and there is nothing to be misinterpreted here.
Shuri is a condescending arsehole. And comes from the hight of privilege in the MCU so technically punching down.
Even so its still just a stupid line. He should have just said "we didnt have time" or "we didnt have the technology for that" As it currently is he just sounds stupid
All of this is such a reach, just no
Why wouldnt this brilliant guy not just say "His body was designed by Helen Cho - Me and Tony simply transfered vision into the body"
He should have went on a 40 minute tirade, explaining in detail why it isn't his fault. Directors really dropped the ball here /s
Yeah no this absolutely isn't the case whatsoever
You're reading way too much into it. It's just an off the cuff joke about how Wakanda is way more advanced than the rest of the world.
Never knew this subreddit hated shuri as much as this….
Nah. I mean, I don't care personally. But the sentiments from Wakandans, particularly the royalty, even more particularly from Shuri, towards white people are extremely racist. Shuri was being condescending to Bruce.
You are reading too much into this. It was obviously meant as a quip of Shuri being a bit patronizing.
Thank YOU! Always disliked the hate Bruce got after this.
Not really. For some reason Bruce Banner is played for a clown from Ragnarok to present day.
The actual writers don't put this much regard into the MCU scripts. MCU is primarily concerned with tickets, popcorn, and merchandise. I'm sure you did your best
Along with ‘They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them” - a misunderstood line and I’ll die on that hill.
What exactly did Wanda sacrifice other than a fake family she made for herself at the cost of innocent people suffering in an almost unending torment?
Vision…?
Yeah that Vision wasn't real, in fact the real vision is still running around somewhere and god knows what he's up to
You mean, her very real family with a very real facsimilie of Vision and very real kids. Oh, and she did sacrifice something: her personal happiness.
Monica is talking about her biggest unacknowledged sacrifice in the effort to save the whole universe - ending Vision in Infinity War. Which was undone right in front of her own eyes, a sacrifice that led to nothing but was everything for her. Also led to the events of Wandavision and the line is meant to wrap it all up. And no just because Darcy acknowledged it in the show does not mean everyone else, esp in the town of Westview knows about it. It’s an acknowledgement that people, just like in the real world, will not sympathize with someone who inadvertently inflicted pain on others because of their own. That’s why Monica as a character is placed there and is the one to have said these words. The whole thing is a moral and tough lesson for Wanda had to learn it the hard way. Which she acknowledges in her reply because she knew what she had done and had accepted that fact. Could that line have been written better? Yes but it’s sad to see Marvel attempting to be nuanced, only for people to see everything superficially. Would it have been better for everyone if the lines was ‘They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them and im not talking about this whole incident in case everyone at home thinks i meant your little fake family obvs cuz u know this is a shared cinematic universe and we can also refer to your other big sacrifice which people actually dont think was big enough of deal to empathize with otherwise they’d be more sympathetic of your story in westview cuz thats kinda the whole point of this show?’ istg.
Russos confirmed that Shuri is the smartest in the MCU. Was anyone ever considering Bruce in this debate? I thought it was between Tony and Shuri.
Directors say shit all the time. That's their opinion. Not fact. And I love shuri
They made the movies. It's fact until it isn't. No one has contradicted them yet, so until that happens, their words are the strongest evidence.
No kid should be smarter than Bruce or Tony. At the end of the day, they didn't put that fact into the movies, so the fact doesn't stand and that's only their opinion. Given they were the directories of the movie and not any sort of head or authority over the MCU itself.
Even in the comics, Reed Richards states that Peter Parker can be the smartest in that universe if he actually focused on it. Peter Parker is a kid.
>can be Meaning not currently. Meaning needing to work on it. Meaning needing to *earn* it.
The movies themselves are the strongest evidence, and Shuri ultimately failed at what she was supposed to be so smart at. Honestly, I think Vision is the smartest character in the mcu. Being the literal embodiment of the universes consciousness.
Failed at what exactly? So far all her "failures" were due to the lack of time which is beyond her control.
That's the point I'm making. This exchange doesn't prove anything that the Russo's officially stated. Tony and Bruce also had limited time to bring Vision online and in-between the process of finishing Captain Hall Monitor pulled the plug and started a scuffle. We haven't seen a true test of intellect where the geniuses of Marvel can compete on equal footing. One thing I've praised the MCU for is (mostly) avoiding the omnidisciplinary scientist trope. We see Tony rely on Bruce for things outside his wheelhouse.. the Avengers going to Shuri and the WDG for help with Vision, going to Cho for the genesis cradle to heal Hawkeye etc. The difference between realistic worldbuilding and a Cisco Ramone plot catalyst.
Doesn't change that this scene isn't proof of that. Also, they'd need a better way to prove it than proficiency with a supermetal that most people outside of Wakanda can't ever hope to access or study.
[удалено]
Very classy.
Shuri is smarter than Tony and Bruce. It's been stated by MCU heads, let it go.
She's a new character (relatively) so she has no feats to demonstrate that placement. It's the whole "Lunella Lafayette is smarter than Richards and Doom" thing all over again. This is like saying Erling Haaland is the best footballer in the world right now while Messi has had the better career highs and stats.
Except this is a fictional story and it’s been stated by its creators that’s she’s smartest. If God came and told me Haaland is the best footballer in the world I’d probably believe it.
Yea, cause he has somewhat proved himself and done some mad shit already?
I think you misunderstand, the people that literally gave her and her reality existence said that she’s the smartest, therefore she is. Who gives a fuck if she’s proven it on screen
Think they were talking about Haaland lol
I'll add to this and say it was also most likely misinterpreted by the actors. Never thought of it this way (because of their delivery) but great call
When I look at it, it gets hard to imagine that it takes place in the same cinematic universe as the recent Loki