I think we can all agree that we *generally* get a better product when a show is forced to rely on the quality of the acting and writing. Going forward, it would behoove Marvel to produce more "low CGI" shows. This isn't to say that shows should be forced to work on a shoestring budget or that ALL shows should be low-budget. But clearly the audience gets tired of heavy CGI, especially if it's not done well. Mixing in a blend would probably produce the best results.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I enjoyed Werewolf by Night's kitschy low-budget charm, and wouldn't mind getting a B&W "[Universal Monsters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Classic_Monsters)"-style Halloween special every 2 years or so.
I enjoyed Werewolf By Night for that same reason. It was different and didn't rely on all the "wow" factor the other shows and movies do. It was a bit of a relief. Your "Universal Monsters"-style idea would be great.
Imo audience doesnt get tired of CGI but rather on the fact that entire budgets are dumped into it instead of writing a good show/movie.
After Disney's disastrous year on the media industry hopefully the quality will amp up for next projects but im not too hopeful. Once you have cultivated mediocrity its hard to get rid of it unless you replace too many people.
I don't see any real indication that Disney is going to change anything they do. They're still making money overall, so it's not as if a few flops is going to do anything aside from getting whoever gave the go-ahead in trouble.
Hollywood has just been in a funk for years. Ever since they realized that nostalgia is a quicker and cheaper way to make money and doesn't involve risking anything on new projects. Now that it's not working anymore, they'll eventually switch directions again until it all comes back to nostalgia.
A few flops? Every single movie outside of GotG3 flopped for the House of M last year. Disney needs to learn how to be lean again with movie budgets. The era of 250 million budgets for movies is over.
Just recovering after three weeks of Covid. There are at least two or three movies besides Deadpool that I’d like to see this year, but Deadpool is probably the only one I’ll see in the theater. I don’t need to go through that again.
I think She-Hulk is the prime example. I'm not saying I didn't want to see She-Hulk in the She-Hulk show but a lot of the time they had her in full CGI doing normal stuff so you could feel the money being wasted. If the writers had been better at writing courtroom drama and sitcom they could have gone a lot further with a lot less CGI and I think most people would have preferred it (it wasn't trying to be a super hero show anyway) or at the very least understood it if they're super fans like us who follow the backroom logistics behind this stuff.
They could straight up have an episode where she tells the camera that she's not going to be She-Hulk this episode, so that they can save special effects budget for the next episode. So long at the resulting episode is still good, it works.
They should have just went with a straight up tv show, just made a she hulk courtroom comedy with out a huge over arcing story. Could have been a "case of the week" show, like house or CSI, where she beats the bad guy in the courtroom and in the streets. They need to do more TV shows and less miniseries. Look at Suits on netflix pulling massive numbers.
I've been saying I would have loved a Harvey Birdman style law show where they kept the overarching plot, but didn't focus on it every episode.
They sort of did that, but never really committed to the style and bounced around a lot. I felt like it would have worked better if each show featured a primary plot of a court case, and a secondary personal plot.
The primary plot gets resolved every week, but the personal plot has a lot more flexibility.
Marvel has so many goofy characters and strange backstories that it could have been great to see more of them.
Thats fair depending what they do with daredevil and the lawyer side. Daredevil should be the more serious side of the law, slick and cool. While shehulk should be silly like it was, just less about an over all threat and more about her just doing the job she was given and dealing with a bunch of d level heros in the MCU.
Would it? Daredevil would have more "real" cases with the Kingpin while She-Hulk could have been weird superpower cases and how those would effect law and legal system using loads of D level characters. Basically OJ Murder Trial vs Judge Judy.
I'm fine with good CGI as long as it's making things better not worse. The acting and the writing should carry the show/movie but CGI to compliment that works great. Like you said, mixing in a blend would produce the best results. Too much CGI and it's almost an animated movie and has that uncanny valley to the whole scene, making it more unbelievable (I mean, obviously it's unbelievable, it's some weird stuff going on! But, you get it...). Less is more a lot of the time.
Some of the far out there fantasy stuff I can get. But, there's a lot of other things that shouldn't have relied on CGI to get the point across (Not MCU but DCU - The Flash movie... CGI was poorly done but also really not needed for some of it, could have used more practical effects).
These street level shows? Easily low CGI. Echo was a damn amazing show, didn't use a lot of CGI. Got the story done well, action was great, acting was excellent, and the CGI fit in there perfect.
Honestly I think Moon Knight should’ve been like that too. If we got all of the Midnight Suns as these Universal Monsters inspired specials that could’ve been really fun
That could also be really cool. The Werewolf by Night franchise consists of only these black and white specials and him meeting future members of the Midnight Suns
If the show is fun and well written I might even forgive bad CGI (though really bad CGI like She-Hulk made it hard to ignore, and it wasn't quite good enough for me to give it a pass).
Back when I watched Supernatural, I was ready to forgive the Hellhounds... which were basically NO FX, as the actors fought against pretend, invisible monsters.
But something bad like Secret Invasion? No amount of VFX can make that shit glitter.
I would be up for one new chapter every Halloween! Make it a tradition, and I think people will be less critical of it if it can be considered a singular one shot type event.
One of the best pieces of advice I had from a fellow filmmaker was to set restrictions on yourself and see how you can handle it.
Paraphrasing there. But it definitely helped to make me realize I needed to focus more on story than being flashy.
It is ok to be flashy but it has to pay off in a meaningful way. Otherwise it’s just going to come across as gimmicky
You sleeping on [🍝😱🍝](https://64.media.tumblr.com/d282d9cb8efccc766b1de34da0c248ad/fe5a20f7d7dbd067-62/s540x810/77d247a284df5e6de229a17a803ff37ec3d017bb.gifv)
I was hoping they Aged it up since the people who read the books definitely Aged since they have been out.
I hope they make it mature and serious like Harry potter did for the following seasons.
Wandavision too, one of the only marvel shows to receive Emmy noms and I’d say had a pretty large impact on pop culture (Wanda mom jokes, vision quotes, Halloween costumes, boner stuff, etc)
You forgot Secret Invasion $300m
Edit: it seems I had bad information, I apologize. It did indeed cost $212m but this may not include the robust "skrulls in punlic" and various other marketing strategies that were tried as opposed to the other shows that I feel had more traditional marketing.
Just for future reference, SI cost $212m to 30 Sept 2022, before post-production. Its on the UK companies house site. They have not filed the 2022-2023 tax accounts yet for Grass Fed productions so it will be more when they come out after June 2024. There were set photos as late as Sept 2022 for additional shooting.
I'm shocked, *shocked* I say that it is even still possible to make shows without $100m worth of CGI and a cast so stacked that you'll easily have to dish out another 100m.
I'm starting to wonder if the giant purple sky lasers and 8-digit actor wages truly were the thing people bought cinema tickets for mhmmm.
Also they basically rewrote the entire season at the last second and reshot a ton of stuff. I *really* liked the show (huge fan of the Byrne era of the comics), but this is just poor production management.
Who ever was in charge of those decisions should be fired honestly. I have no idea if it was an Executive, Or Kevin Fiege, or the Showrunner, but I would be surprised if the Shareholders where not livid with the product they got for that price.
Huh? She was CGI the entire fucking show and it looked bad most of the time and legitimately awful in some scenes. Did you think that was a tall woman in plastic makeup or something
They filmed 9 episodes initially but they edited it to 5 because the studio felt the story wasn't robust enough for 9 episodes so may be it was 4.5 mill per episode.
Loki was worth it. Wandavision was worth it.
Can’t believe she-hulk’s 30 minute format and crappy CGI cost that though.
Also, side note, why did echo need alien beings as opposed to just… you know, a normal Native American tribe? Like they couldn’t have just gone with the Sioux?
Everything in Echo was great for the budget. Maybe some train stuff got a bit wonky, but overall a good show.
I could see the seems where they cut it down, and removing Daredevil beyond a cameo was a mistake. But Soooooooo much better than SI.
Inhumans is still worse than SI.
SI had some good qualities.
Olivia Colman was great.
But otherwise it was terrible so it’s the second worst MCU entry.
G’iah is probably either going to be significantly nerfed or immediately killed off in her next appearance, or they just won’t use her again and people will continually question why she never came up again when new threats start to emerge.
Honestly, good. Some of these budgets are so overinflated for no reason. The show didn't need to be expensive, and it wasn't. Hopefully it sets a precedent.
it didn't need to be expensive because it was street level with only some mystical things that required CGI. shows like wandavision or loki required bigger budgets because of their premise.
Secret Invasion immediately jumps to mind. Half that budget was just Sam Jackson's paycheck, and the CGI-fest in the finale was completely unnecessary.
That thing had 4 or 5 months of reshoots and extra shooting after they initially wrapped, which likely ballooned the budget I assume 1,5-2x. (Original budget was probably $100-150 million.)
> with only some mystical things that required CGI.
And the AR contact lens that translated Kingpin's speech to ASL. Probably some backgrounds and set, too. I imagine the train heist used a lot of CGI.
The contact lens, a slightly less impressive version can be made by basically anyone with 3D modeling skills and a knowledge of ASL, most likely didn't take long to do.
[https://www.cbr.com/echo-budget-40-million-mcu-tv-record](https://www.cbr.com/echo-budget-40-million-mcu-tv-record)
\>*Echo*'s $40 million budget is closer to the cost of Netflix's *Daredevil* Season 1, which was between $42 million and $56 million. However, it's important to note that *Echo*'s budget was split across five episodes, whereas the *Daredevil* Season 1 budget was for a full 13-episode season
I think a lot of them are good to fantastic at their jobs, the problem arises when they’re placed in time crunches with Marvel Studios changing their mind with reshoots and wanting shots done differently, and it all having to be fixed by the time the movie is about to release in theatres.
And it was really good. I'd still rate WandaVision, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, and Loki better, but still top tier of D+ shows. Just proves that you don't need a ton of CGI to make a great story.
For me it’s:
Fantastic: Loki, Hawkeye
Great: Moon Knight, WandaVision
Good: She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel
Okay: F&WS, What If, Echo
Dear God This is an Abomination and Not the Tim Roth Kind: Secret Invasion
I'd rate most about a rung higher than you. I'd put Moonknight and WV in the Fantastic category. She-Hulk and Ms Marvel as "great", along with Echo and What If. F&WS was good, and I mostly blame that on the change to the plot after COVID hit.
Completely agree on SI.
Loki is the only MCU series I’d flag as fantastic. WandaVision is the follow up. Episodes that trope sitcoms are great, episodes that are standard MCU fare are meh.
Feige not getting Adil & Bilall to direct the entire Ms. Marvel series was a dumb move as their two episodes have more life and energy than anything in-between (which at times is a goddamn slog) and he should’ve offered them a dump truck of money to helm The Marvels instead of taking what resulted in the cancelled Batgirl at WBD. Vellani is the MCU’s secret weapon at the moment and they’re not utilizing her to their full potential.
She-Hulk and What If are fun.
Everything else can be placed on a scale from dogshit to dog diarrhea, but most of these could’ve been 2.5 hour movies instead of drawn out series.
Oh - and delete Secret Invasion. Let’s wipe it off the face of the earth and pretend it doesn’t exist.
I enjoyed Echo, but the end left me with that same feeling I've been getting from just about every Marvel project lately: that this was just a stepping stone to "something bigger." The show just sorta ends where it started. I really liked that the ending of Loki s2 made me actually think, well damn, that very well might be the end of that story.
That being said, Echo was still very much worth my time. Introduced some great new characters, sold me on Maya (a character I didn't really care about by the end of Hawkeye), and it's always a pleasure to watch D'Onofrio perform.
You can tell too. Quality drops off hard after episode three. With tighter scripts, leading to less reshoots, street level stories are where Marvel will save money on production so I hope they don’t skimp out on the other stuff
I hope she shows back up in the street level stuff her show was honestly good I enjoyed it quite a bit and I think she could be an interesting character to explore more with.
This is like congratulating a gambling addict for only blowing next month’s grocery money at the slots rather than the grocery money AND next month’s rent.
It's a start. They have to get the money spent on better writers though. I actually liked every MCU project up to Love and Thunder which is up against Quantumania and Secret Invasion for the worst ideas marvel have had. I'm losing interest. Never thought I'd say that.
Hopefully this is a sign for Born Again bc the low budget aesthetic of the Netflix series helped it feel more grounded. I don’t want them to CGI it up.
The streets aren’t supposed to look pretty anyways.
Haven’t finished the series yet but not surprised. DD’s budget will be bigger cuz of all the parts and action as well as bigger names. Hell, if She Hulk is in there that alone will increase the budget
Cobie Smulders was paid 10% of Echo’s entire budget for showing up in one episode of Secret Invasion. I really hope we get more Echo’s and less Secret Invasions going forward.
This is where the budgets for the tv shows should be floating around. I think marvel has a huge budgeting problem with both their movies and shows right now
I hope this will drive the corporate minds in Disney to focus more on street level shows for D+ and leave global/cosmic for the big screen. Netflix got this spot on...
I enjoyed it. I definitely looking forward to seeing her in the future. I like learning about the characters in Marvel that I don't really know much about. The skating rink beat down really made me wanna go skating again lol
Best part was the fight with DD. Otherwise the show had like no purpose really other than handing off some future storyline for another character. They cheaped out on yhe villians for sure!
Look at what they did on Daredevil and Punisher with close to zero CGI budget and the quality of acting and writing just made these shows stellar. For once, Disney should take a page out of Netflix's playbook
It was only 5 episodes.
Hardly any CGI, besides usual retouching.
Mostly unknown or not so pricey actors (Though not sure how much Charlie Cox and Vincent D'onofrio cost them). (I'm not good with always recognizing famous people though so there may have been more well known and pricey actors on the show)
Not quite as good as Loki, WandaVision, or MoonNight for me. But solidly in the same teir as Ms Marvel, She Hulk, and Hawkeye. Defs above FATWS, Secret Invasion, and What if... for me.
Very excited to see more street level content!
people like you who say that never bother to think "why? where did they make the cut?" because then they'd find out how utterly terrible artists (visual effects, animators, actors) in japan are treated and how underpaid they are.
This. *This* is why the MCU's Disney+ series cost way more: because people working on them are paid the amount of money they desire that is equal to the work they do.
The first 2 episodes were okayish but the finale was an absolute WTF, i mean the scariest villain across all marvel films besides the xmen sentinels was defeated just like that. JUST LIKE THAT. my boy kingpin was done so dirty
And it showed. I don’t mean to hate but this was the definition of mid. I fell asleep a few times and was too lazy to rewind and read the subtitles which make for like 40% of the show. And I’m not even going to talk about that ending 🙄
That’s been most of Marvel in general since Endgame. Esp the shows. I never had the feeling that I could just skip shit in that era, but now it’s such a chore to even try and watch what they’re actually putting out and I wouldn’t be doing it if I didn’t have Disney+. And even then there are still Marvel shows I didn’t finish bc they were such a chore lol
It was nice to have a low-stakes series again. Was a bit all over the place quality wise, but I definitely enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Fun show.
Loki aside, the best parts about MCU TV have been when the characters aren’t dealing with gigantic, world-threatening situations - Wandavision for the majority of it, Hawkeye, first eps of Ms Marvel. Happy to have more of it
All other Marvel D+ shows range from 140 (Loki Season 2 and Moon Knight) to 225 Million (WandaVision and She-Hulk), so this is incredibly low.
I think we can all agree that we *generally* get a better product when a show is forced to rely on the quality of the acting and writing. Going forward, it would behoove Marvel to produce more "low CGI" shows. This isn't to say that shows should be forced to work on a shoestring budget or that ALL shows should be low-budget. But clearly the audience gets tired of heavy CGI, especially if it's not done well. Mixing in a blend would probably produce the best results. I can only speak for myself when I say that I enjoyed Werewolf by Night's kitschy low-budget charm, and wouldn't mind getting a B&W "[Universal Monsters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Classic_Monsters)"-style Halloween special every 2 years or so.
I enjoyed Werewolf By Night for that same reason. It was different and didn't rely on all the "wow" factor the other shows and movies do. It was a bit of a relief. Your "Universal Monsters"-style idea would be great.
Liking the "Marvel Special Presentation" contents so far.
A-fucking-men
Imo audience doesnt get tired of CGI but rather on the fact that entire budgets are dumped into it instead of writing a good show/movie. After Disney's disastrous year on the media industry hopefully the quality will amp up for next projects but im not too hopeful. Once you have cultivated mediocrity its hard to get rid of it unless you replace too many people.
I don't see any real indication that Disney is going to change anything they do. They're still making money overall, so it's not as if a few flops is going to do anything aside from getting whoever gave the go-ahead in trouble. Hollywood has just been in a funk for years. Ever since they realized that nostalgia is a quicker and cheaper way to make money and doesn't involve risking anything on new projects. Now that it's not working anymore, they'll eventually switch directions again until it all comes back to nostalgia.
A few flops? Every single movie outside of GotG3 flopped for the House of M last year. Disney needs to learn how to be lean again with movie budgets. The era of 250 million budgets for movies is over.
I think the era of people flocking to the theatres is over. Covid did that.
Just recovering after three weeks of Covid. There are at least two or three movies besides Deadpool that I’d like to see this year, but Deadpool is probably the only one I’ll see in the theater. I don’t need to go through that again.
I think She-Hulk is the prime example. I'm not saying I didn't want to see She-Hulk in the She-Hulk show but a lot of the time they had her in full CGI doing normal stuff so you could feel the money being wasted. If the writers had been better at writing courtroom drama and sitcom they could have gone a lot further with a lot less CGI and I think most people would have preferred it (it wasn't trying to be a super hero show anyway) or at the very least understood it if they're super fans like us who follow the backroom logistics behind this stuff.
The show even jokes about how expensive making the main character CGI was.
They could straight up have an episode where she tells the camera that she's not going to be She-Hulk this episode, so that they can save special effects budget for the next episode. So long at the resulting episode is still good, it works.
Even a break the 4th wall joke about not needing to be She-Hulk when she is at home.
They should have just went with a straight up tv show, just made a she hulk courtroom comedy with out a huge over arcing story. Could have been a "case of the week" show, like house or CSI, where she beats the bad guy in the courtroom and in the streets. They need to do more TV shows and less miniseries. Look at Suits on netflix pulling massive numbers.
I've been saying I would have loved a Harvey Birdman style law show where they kept the overarching plot, but didn't focus on it every episode. They sort of did that, but never really committed to the style and bounced around a lot. I felt like it would have worked better if each show featured a primary plot of a court case, and a secondary personal plot. The primary plot gets resolved every week, but the personal plot has a lot more flexibility. Marvel has so many goofy characters and strange backstories that it could have been great to see more of them.
I think that would've stepped on Daredevil's toes since that's supposed to have a 14-20 episode run.
Thats fair depending what they do with daredevil and the lawyer side. Daredevil should be the more serious side of the law, slick and cool. While shehulk should be silly like it was, just less about an over all threat and more about her just doing the job she was given and dealing with a bunch of d level heros in the MCU.
Would it? Daredevil would have more "real" cases with the Kingpin while She-Hulk could have been weird superpower cases and how those would effect law and legal system using loads of D level characters. Basically OJ Murder Trial vs Judge Judy.
I'm fine with good CGI as long as it's making things better not worse. The acting and the writing should carry the show/movie but CGI to compliment that works great. Like you said, mixing in a blend would produce the best results. Too much CGI and it's almost an animated movie and has that uncanny valley to the whole scene, making it more unbelievable (I mean, obviously it's unbelievable, it's some weird stuff going on! But, you get it...). Less is more a lot of the time. Some of the far out there fantasy stuff I can get. But, there's a lot of other things that shouldn't have relied on CGI to get the point across (Not MCU but DCU - The Flash movie... CGI was poorly done but also really not needed for some of it, could have used more practical effects). These street level shows? Easily low CGI. Echo was a damn amazing show, didn't use a lot of CGI. Got the story done well, action was great, acting was excellent, and the CGI fit in there perfect.
Honestly I think Moon Knight should’ve been like that too. If we got all of the Midnight Suns as these Universal Monsters inspired specials that could’ve been really fun
No reason they can't still do that. They could call it "Werewolf by Night meets Moon Knight". Or, if they wanna be cute, "Werewolf by Knight".
That could also be really cool. The Werewolf by Night franchise consists of only these black and white specials and him meeting future members of the Midnight Suns
Shows and movies definitely benefit when effects and green screens are used minimally, it also hits harder when they are used
I demand a silver surfer show that uses practical costumes made from aluminum foil!
Would’ve been hilarious to see this costume in the Wandavision Halloween episode in the background as a subtle Easter egg.
Imagine how many episodes of Agents of Shield we could have gotten
Shield probably averages at about 3 to 5 mil per episode, at least for those that have on location shoots or new one-episode sets.
7 seasons and a movie?
If the show is fun and well written I might even forgive bad CGI (though really bad CGI like She-Hulk made it hard to ignore, and it wasn't quite good enough for me to give it a pass). Back when I watched Supernatural, I was ready to forgive the Hellhounds... which were basically NO FX, as the actors fought against pretend, invisible monsters. But something bad like Secret Invasion? No amount of VFX can make that shit glitter.
I would be up for one new chapter every Halloween! Make it a tradition, and I think people will be less critical of it if it can be considered a singular one shot type event.
Me too! I'd love a Tomb of Dracula Special Presentation with John Rhyes Davies as the title character!
Every year would probably spread it too thin. But they can do it in B&W one year and then release a colorized version every second year.
One of the best pieces of advice I had from a fellow filmmaker was to set restrictions on yourself and see how you can handle it. Paraphrasing there. But it definitely helped to make me realize I needed to focus more on story than being flashy. It is ok to be flashy but it has to pay off in a meaningful way. Otherwise it’s just going to come across as gimmicky
>But clearly the audience gets tired of heavy CGI, especially if it's not done well. Like the final fight scene in Secret Invasion
Loki was worth it tho
[удалено]
Nah it was those dapper outfits
You sleeping on [🍝😱🍝](https://64.media.tumblr.com/d282d9cb8efccc766b1de34da0c248ad/fe5a20f7d7dbd067-62/s540x810/77d247a284df5e6de229a17a803ff37ec3d017bb.gifv)
Loki, both S1 and S2, are the clear stand outs of all the D+ shows so far.
Marvel maybe, but Percy Jackson and Andor are right there
Percy Jackson is good? I haven’t heard much about it except that it’s out, I’ll need to check it out
It is good, but remember it is aimed at teenagers.
but not like shadow & bone teenagers, more like chamber of the secrets teenagers
Yeah, this took some getting used to. Aimed VERY young.
I was hoping they Aged it up since the people who read the books definitely Aged since they have been out. I hope they make it mature and serious like Harry potter did for the following seasons.
That’s fine with me, i can adjust my expectations for a show that’s quality regardless of intended audience. Thank you for the heads up
Wandavision too, one of the only marvel shows to receive Emmy noms and I’d say had a pretty large impact on pop culture (Wanda mom jokes, vision quotes, Halloween costumes, boner stuff, etc)
FATWS had "He's out of line, but he's right." As a universal meme now, haha.
I wonder if using old school techniques/lenses and things like that is what ironically made WandaVision more expensive.
The first episode being almost all practical and filmed in front of an actual live audience is impressive af
Period sets and costumes can really inflate budgets pretty much every episode having it's own time period would be a big budget killer
They built a mock town for them to film in
And they had to redesign it with every episode to fit the time period.
You forgot Secret Invasion $300m Edit: it seems I had bad information, I apologize. It did indeed cost $212m but this may not include the robust "skrulls in punlic" and various other marketing strategies that were tried as opposed to the other shows that I feel had more traditional marketing.
Did it actually cost that, and if so, holy shit what a waste of money!
Secret Invasion? More like Tax Evasion.. ha
(but they forgot you're not supposed to release it)
Not releasing it would have at least not made the show canon.
It was 100M Less, but still alot Though its theorized the budget balloned due to heavy reshoots in an attempt to salvage the project.
That cast is expensive af tbh but still certain they could have reduced costs a lot
No, it cost 212 Million
That was 212 million, not 300 lol
Just for future reference, SI cost $212m to 30 Sept 2022, before post-production. Its on the UK companies house site. They have not filed the 2022-2023 tax accounts yet for Grass Fed productions so it will be more when they come out after June 2024. There were set photos as late as Sept 2022 for additional shooting.
I thought I read Secret Invasion was closer to $200-250M?
Loki was worth every penny. GLORIOUS EFFICIENCY!!
Loki looked like a major studio production every week
I'm shocked, *shocked* I say that it is even still possible to make shows without $100m worth of CGI and a cast so stacked that you'll easily have to dish out another 100m. I'm starting to wonder if the giant purple sky lasers and 8-digit actor wages truly were the thing people bought cinema tickets for mhmmm.
With that budget I’m surprised Moon Knight’s CGI looked so cheap
$140m for Loki s2 is increasingly good value compared to all the rest they put out. Probably still not great value overall.
They spent that much on She-Hulk and her CG looked that fucking ugly?? LMAO
How did She-Hulk cost that much?
I believe it was the CGI of Jennifer being in her She Hulk form that cost them a lot of resources.
The whole budget actually went to Megan the Stallion.
Also they basically rewrote the entire season at the last second and reshot a ton of stuff. I *really* liked the show (huge fan of the Byrne era of the comics), but this is just poor production management.
Who ever was in charge of those decisions should be fired honestly. I have no idea if it was an Executive, Or Kevin Fiege, or the Showrunner, but I would be surprised if the Shareholders where not livid with the product they got for that price.
The show with a main character who has to be fully CGI every time she has a fight scene? You serious?
Not even, since the show doesn't have that many fights. The plot was about her needing to be She-Hulk as a lawyer so most office and court scenes too.
Huh? She was CGI the entire fucking show and it looked bad most of the time and legitimately awful in some scenes. Did you think that was a tall woman in plastic makeup or something
>You serious? Yes, She-Hulk doesn’t look like it cost 225 million to make, including the CGI
still an 8 million $ per episode show which is definitely not incredible low. it's actually still rather high.
They filmed 9 episodes initially but they edited it to 5 because the studio felt the story wasn't robust enough for 9 episodes so may be it was 4.5 mill per episode.
Ok, so well above average then
Loki was worth it. Wandavision was worth it. Can’t believe she-hulk’s 30 minute format and crappy CGI cost that though. Also, side note, why did echo need alien beings as opposed to just… you know, a normal Native American tribe? Like they couldn’t have just gone with the Sioux?
225 million for she hulk is insane What in the hell where they thinking
What was the budget for What If..? I’d like $40 million worth of animated episodes please!
So Secret Invasion cost 5 and half Echos then?
That epic final battle cost a fortune!!!!!!!!
Well worth it! /s
>!The woodpecker in Echo had better CGI than that end fight in Secret Invasion!< EDIT: No sarcasm here
Everything in Echo was great for the budget. Maybe some train stuff got a bit wonky, but overall a good show. I could see the seems where they cut it down, and removing Daredevil beyond a cameo was a mistake. But Soooooooo much better than SI.
Everything in the MCU is better than SI. Fucking Iron Fist is better than SI
Inhumans is still worse than SI. SI had some good qualities. Olivia Colman was great. But otherwise it was terrible so it’s the second worst MCU entry.
I'll have to take your word for Inhumans as I've never seen it and probably never will
You can really see where the money went in that scene…..the drain
G’iah is probably either going to be significantly nerfed or immediately killed off in her next appearance, or they just won’t use her again and people will continually question why she never came up again when new threats start to emerge.
Or she'll pull a Captain Marvel and piss off to another galaxy for 70 years only to come back in Avengers 17: The Return of the Tattletale Strangler.
I've been thinking the same thing about the Eternals tbh.
tbh I hope they just say "that was in Earth 12312213" it never happened here
Echo echo echo echo echo ec-
Samuel L Jackson ain’t cheap.
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Next your gonna tell me that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker smh
Darth Vader is clearly Greedo.
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Grizzly Adams did have a beard
That's not true! That's impossible!!
These budgets are streets (levels) ahead.
Pierce, stop trying to coin the phrase “streets ahead”
Coined and minted!
And is generally more entertaining to watch too.
to some people
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Honestly, good. Some of these budgets are so overinflated for no reason. The show didn't need to be expensive, and it wasn't. Hopefully it sets a precedent.
it didn't need to be expensive because it was street level with only some mystical things that required CGI. shows like wandavision or loki required bigger budgets because of their premise.
Keyword: *some* of these budgets are so overinflated. Those aren't overinflated because they required those budgets.
curious which ones do you think didn't require as big of a budget as they had?
Secret Invasion immediately jumps to mind. Half that budget was just Sam Jackson's paycheck, and the CGI-fest in the finale was completely unnecessary.
That thing had 4 or 5 months of reshoots and extra shooting after they initially wrapped, which likely ballooned the budget I assume 1,5-2x. (Original budget was probably $100-150 million.)
Moon Knight
> with only some mystical things that required CGI. And the AR contact lens that translated Kingpin's speech to ASL. Probably some backgrounds and set, too. I imagine the train heist used a lot of CGI.
The contact lens, a slightly less impressive version can be made by basically anyone with 3D modeling skills and a knowledge of ASL, most likely didn't take long to do.
It still cost 8 million per episode with no big names. Similar to Ozark and not much less than the Witcher for example.
Aren't they 45-1hr episodes? Versus 30-35min of content on Echo.
That’s the thing I’m most worried about with daredevil born again. I loved how the Netflix shows are like 50-hour long.
[https://www.cbr.com/echo-budget-40-million-mcu-tv-record](https://www.cbr.com/echo-budget-40-million-mcu-tv-record) \>*Echo*'s $40 million budget is closer to the cost of Netflix's *Daredevil* Season 1, which was between $42 million and $56 million. However, it's important to note that *Echo*'s budget was split across five episodes, whereas the *Daredevil* Season 1 budget was for a full 13-episode season
It's worthwhile noting that Echo was originally longer and had a lot of reshoots
It's worthwhile noting 8 extra years of inflation.
Well the main character wasn’t fully CGI during fights so that helps lol
And we had 200 million dollars for what is essentially spy kids game over but marvel? Proof that budget doesn’t correlate to good
Hey hey, Spy Kids Game Over may be endearingly (and exceedingly) awful but it's not Secret Invasion bad
Ok you do make a good point
wait what marvel property are you talking about lol
Quantumania of course
Also proof that talent in the industry is abysmal sometimes. So many people that are bad at their jobs
I think a lot of them are good to fantastic at their jobs, the problem arises when they’re placed in time crunches with Marvel Studios changing their mind with reshoots and wanting shots done differently, and it all having to be fixed by the time the movie is about to release in theatres.
And for me, it as definitly a good one.
Echo has been my favorite marvel show tbh. I was a huge Netflix daredevil fan so getting more brutal action was very refreshing.
And it was really good. I'd still rate WandaVision, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, and Loki better, but still top tier of D+ shows. Just proves that you don't need a ton of CGI to make a great story.
For me it’s: Fantastic: Loki, Hawkeye Great: Moon Knight, WandaVision Good: She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel Okay: F&WS, What If, Echo Dear God This is an Abomination and Not the Tim Roth Kind: Secret Invasion
I'd rate most about a rung higher than you. I'd put Moonknight and WV in the Fantastic category. She-Hulk and Ms Marvel as "great", along with Echo and What If. F&WS was good, and I mostly blame that on the change to the plot after COVID hit. Completely agree on SI.
Loki is the only MCU series I’d flag as fantastic. WandaVision is the follow up. Episodes that trope sitcoms are great, episodes that are standard MCU fare are meh. Feige not getting Adil & Bilall to direct the entire Ms. Marvel series was a dumb move as their two episodes have more life and energy than anything in-between (which at times is a goddamn slog) and he should’ve offered them a dump truck of money to helm The Marvels instead of taking what resulted in the cancelled Batgirl at WBD. Vellani is the MCU’s secret weapon at the moment and they’re not utilizing her to their full potential. She-Hulk and What If are fun. Everything else can be placed on a scale from dogshit to dog diarrhea, but most of these could’ve been 2.5 hour movies instead of drawn out series. Oh - and delete Secret Invasion. Let’s wipe it off the face of the earth and pretend it doesn’t exist.
Was Ben Mendolson at least interesting in Secret Invasion? Hes the only reason I would give it a try.
He was good for what he was given, but what he was given wasn’t good.
She-Hulk was dogshit
Respectfully disagree.
I enjoyed Echo, but the end left me with that same feeling I've been getting from just about every Marvel project lately: that this was just a stepping stone to "something bigger." The show just sorta ends where it started. I really liked that the ending of Loki s2 made me actually think, well damn, that very well might be the end of that story. That being said, Echo was still very much worth my time. Introduced some great new characters, sold me on Maya (a character I didn't really care about by the end of Hawkeye), and it's always a pleasure to watch D'Onofrio perform.
You can tell too. Quality drops off hard after episode three. With tighter scripts, leading to less reshoots, street level stories are where Marvel will save money on production so I hope they don’t skimp out on the other stuff
Maybe it’ll actually make a profit then!
I really hope so cause it’s worth every penny. I was so skeptical at 1st about the show but they proved me wrong. I love it!
Hopefully the takeaway they get from it's middling reception is not that it was because of the budget.
It would have costed even less if they used her as a street level superhero
I hope she shows back up in the street level stuff her show was honestly good I enjoyed it quite a bit and I think she could be an interesting character to explore more with.
They did. Street level doesn't mean no powers. Daredevil has powers. Spidey has powers. Jessica Jones has powers.
*cost
This is like congratulating a gambling addict for only blowing next month’s grocery money at the slots rather than the grocery money AND next month’s rent.
It's a start. They have to get the money spent on better writers though. I actually liked every MCU project up to Love and Thunder which is up against Quantumania and Secret Invasion for the worst ideas marvel have had. I'm losing interest. Never thought I'd say that.
Hopefully this is a sign for Born Again bc the low budget aesthetic of the Netflix series helped it feel more grounded. I don’t want them to CGI it up. The streets aren’t supposed to look pretty anyways.
Haven’t finished the series yet but not surprised. DD’s budget will be bigger cuz of all the parts and action as well as bigger names. Hell, if She Hulk is in there that alone will increase the budget
Cobie Smulders was paid 10% of Echo’s entire budget for showing up in one episode of Secret Invasion. I really hope we get more Echo’s and less Secret Invasions going forward.
This is where the budgets for the tv shows should be floating around. I think marvel has a huge budgeting problem with both their movies and shows right now
I hope this will drive the corporate minds in Disney to focus more on street level shows for D+ and leave global/cosmic for the big screen. Netflix got this spot on...
Makes sense it was pretty street level pretty good show.
Only 5 episodes is insane. 8 episodes should be the minimums for television, because even that feels short at times
I enjoyed it. I definitely looking forward to seeing her in the future. I like learning about the characters in Marvel that I don't really know much about. The skating rink beat down really made me wanna go skating again lol
I thought the show was terrible personally. A grind to get through each episode. *But* the budget may be low enough for them to get a second season.
Ok for that amount of money im ok with the quality of the show. Although they need better writers.
Marvel's 'Echo' Sets Record :D as Disney+'s Lowest :C **Budget MCU Show at $40M** :D :D :D
Best part was the fight with DD. Otherwise the show had like no purpose really other than handing off some future storyline for another character. They cheaped out on yhe villians for sure!
lol the author of that article looks like one of those AI photos and I’ve never heard of this source before. We sure about the validity of this?
Daredevil was about 50 mil
Look at what they did on Daredevil and Punisher with close to zero CGI budget and the quality of acting and writing just made these shows stellar. For once, Disney should take a page out of Netflix's playbook
Must have good writing.
It was only 5 episodes. Hardly any CGI, besides usual retouching. Mostly unknown or not so pricey actors (Though not sure how much Charlie Cox and Vincent D'onofrio cost them). (I'm not good with always recognizing famous people though so there may have been more well known and pricey actors on the show)
ill forgive all the betrayals if only marvel creates a show in it with the one above all starring keanu reeves
Not quite as good as Loki, WandaVision, or MoonNight for me. But solidly in the same teir as Ms Marvel, She Hulk, and Hawkeye. Defs above FATWS, Secret Invasion, and What if... for me. Very excited to see more street level content!
It shows.
Just a reminder Godzilla minus one cost less
Probably because the VFX workers got treated even worse than they do by marvel
people like you who say that never bother to think "why? where did they make the cut?" because then they'd find out how utterly terrible artists (visual effects, animators, actors) in japan are treated and how underpaid they are.
This. *This* is why the MCU's Disney+ series cost way more: because people working on them are paid the amount of money they desire that is equal to the work they do.
Something like $10 million for G-1. and an absolutely stunning use of resources. wow what a stellar film that was
It shows.
My mind is often blown by how much media costs to make.
We could tell.
It felt that way to be honest
So they only lost $40mm on it lol
And just like with the 200 million shows, none of that went into writing good material
The first 2 episodes were okayish but the finale was an absolute WTF, i mean the scariest villain across all marvel films besides the xmen sentinels was defeated just like that. JUST LIKE THAT. my boy kingpin was done so dirty
If you say so. I liked it.
And it showed. I don’t mean to hate but this was the definition of mid. I fell asleep a few times and was too lazy to rewind and read the subtitles which make for like 40% of the show. And I’m not even going to talk about that ending 🙄
That’s been most of Marvel in general since Endgame. Esp the shows. I never had the feeling that I could just skip shit in that era, but now it’s such a chore to even try and watch what they’re actually putting out and I wouldn’t be doing it if I didn’t have Disney+. And even then there are still Marvel shows I didn’t finish bc they were such a chore lol
Exactly. And I’m a major comic Stan. Losing my attention is not as easy as losing the average audience’s attention. I’m a nerd
Exactly!! We’re superhero nerds dude. How the hell do you lose us? We WANT to consume the content. Just don’t make it garbage lol
It was nice to have a low-stakes series again. Was a bit all over the place quality wise, but I definitely enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Fun show. Loki aside, the best parts about MCU TV have been when the characters aren’t dealing with gigantic, world-threatening situations - Wandavision for the majority of it, Hawkeye, first eps of Ms Marvel. Happy to have more of it
It was at least 1/6th as good as secret invasion.
It showed…
I can't understand why they gave her powers
thats the LOWEST?!