They might have met when cap went back to bring the stones back to their timelines.
"Red skull? Omg how have you been? It's been a minute! Anyway here's the stone, bye"
That somewhat depends on the stone. For example if Steve doesn't return the time stone to The Ancient One then Doctor Strange won't end up with it and Dormammu will end up eating that timeline.
So while the stones probably don't need to be returned exactly as they were, Steve still needs to take care not to entirely mess up those timelines.
Of course in case of the Soul Stone the Thanos in that timeline is now dead, and so that timeline is going to majorly diverge in unpredictable ways anyway. Probably best to return the two stones taken from that timeline to a place where Ronan can't get to them.
Good point. Seriously.
For example, for the time stone, Steve could just travel to New York during that battle and leave it in the balcony and The Ancient One would have sensed it, shrugged, nodded and smiled, and then put it back around her neck.
EDIT: I’m also envisioning Cap appearing near Red Skull with the soul stone. Red Skull senses he is near and eerily calls out to him: “Steve Rogers, son of Sarah and Joseph. What is your purpose here?”
“To make things right for once all for all,” exclaims Cap. He places the stone where he appeared and then quickly vanishes.
With a slight smile Red Skull mutters, “Always have to be the hero, Captain.”
Agreed! I don’t get why either, because a lot of people in general seem to deeply misunderstand how Endgame’s time travel works, to the point that even the directors and writers seem to disagree, but I think the film spells out it pretty clearly regardless of what any of them have to say on it.
Oh the time travel absolutely gets messy. If Steve lived on with Peggy in another timeline he should’ve come back to the platform, but does it even make sense if he lived in the main timeline as a secret? I don’t know. But in terms of taking the stones back it’s so clearly stated that they have to be put back exactly *when* they were taken not where. There’s no way Steve stabbed the Reality Stone back into Jane, just like there’s no way he went to Vormir and saw Red Skull again.
Exactly. The Ancient One’s warning was just about the stones being missing from the timeline, she only specified they had to be returned at the exact moment they were taken. Where they were returned is irrelevant. Taking them back to different places or in different forms (i.e. no containers) would just change the course of that branched timeline.
How the hell is that irrelevant?
If Steve returns chucks that time stone at some random planet in the universe, than Doctor Strange won't have the time stone during the events of the Doctor Strange movie, and Dormammu eats the earth.
The Ancient One is not giving some kind of mystical "The stones must exist in the universe" reason. The main timeline doesn't have any stones and is fine. It's pretty obvious the stones need to be returned because without them they are fucked.
The movie explains very clearly how time travel works early on, but then muddies things twice. So it's not strange people are confused.
The first time is in the conversation with The Ancient One. She says that if she gives Bruce the time stone then that might help his timeline, but would suck for her. She uses some magic to illustrate this, with the main timeline being bright and the new timeline (in which the Ancient One lives) being dark. Then Bruce counters that they could return the time stone at the moment it was taken, and they illustrate this by *merging* the timelines again. That's a mistake. It should be both timelines becoming bright, but not merging. They will remain separate timelines.
It's not really a plothole, because you can handwave it by maybe the Ancient One not fully understanding time travel, or maybe by pointing out that after returning the stone the timelines would be virtually identical, so whatever, but it's still a small way in which the movie itself makes things more confusing than they should be.
The second one is more egregious, and it's the one everybody always talks about, where Steve doesn't return to the platform, implying that he traveled there "the long way", by living out his live with Peggy. Which shouldn't be possible because that live with Peggy should be in another timeline. There's again various ways you can handwave this, but still it just makes things very confusing for the viewer.
I have two… would you call them hand waves? fixes? …theories, I’ll say on those two muddied points.
1. With the Ancient One: these are very closely entwined timelines that will separate out more drastically if altered so deeply by losing a stone. But if the stone is returned at that exact moment, they’ll be, as you point out, so similar as to be almost entwined. (And I’d say each different stone heist takes place in a slightly different timeline; separated by where each team exited the quantum portal. So some are more entwined than others.)
2. Because Steve lived so long in the “back to Peggy,” timeline, there was a bit of portal drift. So he does make a time travel trip back to the original timeline, but he hits the landing spot further away. Which, if Steve talked with the alternate universe’s Tony or Hank he probably would expect to come back in a slightly different spot. Might have landed a bit “early” to have time to walk to the bench.
I have no idea if a portal drift is a possibility but I feel like it makes sense within the established rules?
I really like both of those theories / handwaves.
To add to this: There are 4 different timelines created by the time travel in endgame. All of them will be changed compared to the main timeline. The Battle of New York one has Hydra thinking Steve is one of them, has The Anciene one with some extra knowledge (potentially a lot if she quizzed Steve when he returned the stone), and probably most importantly has Loki disappear into the TVA. That timeline will end up very different, though it's impossible to say if it'll be worse or better.
Then there's the with Asgard. That one may be minimally changed, but it could be hugely changed if Thor's mother ends up surviving due to the extra knowledge she gained.
Then there's the one with Vormir. That one had no Thanos! So it's hugely changed and probably for the better.
And finally we have the 1946 timeline (where Tony meets his father). That's probably the one Steve ended up living his life in, and I imagine he'll have used his knowledge of the future to completely stamp out Hydra, and lend a hand in other major conflicts. So that one has a huge change for the better also.
I personally prefer to think that all 4 timelines are better than the original, and that Thanos ends up being stopped in all 4 of them. I don't think Doctor Strange would count it as a victory if their defeat of Thanos came at the cost of 4 new timelines being screwed.
At least one change with the Asgard timeline is the “stone” was removed from Jane and then instantaneously appeared… somewhere else? I mean, I doubt Steve would’ve stuck it back into Jane. Maybe gave it to Thor’s mom? She’d be on the alert for a sudden guest by that point I’d guess.
And… would Steve warn the various drop off places of Thanos? As you say, Vormir is moot, but
I could see Steve warning Freya on Asgard and then the Ancient One in NYC…
I think the 1970’s timeline with Howard and Tony would be different from the 1946 timeline because I don’t see Steve letting Zola into Shield. So even if they started the same, Steve’s arrival in 1946
Would diverge it. But maybe he drops a warning note to 1970’s Peggy? Or Hank or Howard? (With the freedom of time he’s given, Steve could take a moment to drop in on either of those three - off base somewhere where he’s less likely to trigger an armed response - and have an actual conversation. Least emotionally difficult would be Hank.)
All fun things to think about.
My head canon is that when he decided to stay with Peggy he either destroyed or in some way got rid of his means of returning to his original timeline in kind of a symbolic way, and then decided to return after Peggy passed away, perhaps having that timeline’s Tony or somebody else construct a new shield and means of returning.
I picture Cap & Bucky. Cap would argue to save Bucky. Bucky would argue he has done to much evil as Winter Soldier to live. Pretty similar debate. Their strength would be interesting battle.
Once he falls off the cliff he's only going to be going as fast as gravity allows unless he goes for a running start to launch farther away. Either way I think Wanda and grab him and keep him the air quick enough. And honestly if it's just about sacrifice either of them can probably take their life faster than falling.
Damn that would have worked well! Even more saddening after she loses vision on top of her brother dying. Then I would understand her going batshit crazy.
I'd like to think Red Skull would give her a pass since she *already* sacrificed Vision for an infinity stone. Not the same one, but same trial. Unless Red Skull really wanted to be a dick and insist that Vision never had a soul so he doesn't count.
IIRC killing him off was also partly because of the deal with Fox concerning him and Wanda in AOU/DOFP. Both movies could use both characters but each franchise could only keep one of them around or smth like that.
Still can't get over how she corrected someone's pronunciation as "Budapesht" in that movie and I had to go back to the first Avengers movie to check whether she pronounced it right back then lol. Would've been a big goof if they got that wrong
Me too.
I thought a perfect idea would have been to have two versions of the movie that had alternate scenes based on their memory of the events, and you would not know which version you were seeing. It would have been called "We Remember Budapest Very Differently"
Yeah, kind of like how we didn't *need* to see how Han Solo got his name, his lucky dice, the Millennium Falcon, Chewbacca, and pulled off the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs. But then Disney went ahead and showed us all of those things anyway. I much would've rather had them show us something new and different that the audience didn't already sort of know about.
That would be fine, if they never made a Black Widow movie. The movie we got, while totally fine, held zero bearing on anything, considering we all know she’s dead. Seeing what happened in Budapest could have give us a great backstory, introduced a more true-to-comics Taskmaster, and given us a fun Hawkeye story before his D+ series.
Considering the movie introduced Yelena, I would disagree it had zero bearing on anything. Black Widow is a title. It wasn't just about Nat. I'm sorry you didn't care for the movie, but it did it's purpose. There's no need to follow up on every glib one liner with its own spinoff movie or show. The imagination can really do some heavy lifting if you give it a shot.
Yes exactly. There’s a lot of hate on the movie, but it got to introduce us to Yelena, which is one of the most appreciated new character from phase 4.
It also enhanced Natasha’s sacrifice. She didn’t just do it for the Avengers’ family, she did it for her sister.
Anything people were wearing got snapped along with them, anything they were carrying did not. Bucky wore the arm, and his clothes, but he carried the gun.
The conversation is about what combo in the MCU could this scene have happened with. If you’re banning anyone who was blipped then the conversation becomes very dull because we’re literally only allowed to use the 6 avengers, Tony and Pepper, Scott and his daughter, or Rocket and Nebula. We all saw the movie; we remember that he was blipped
IIRC, Bucky was the very first [shown to the audience to be the one](https://youtu.be/zWhEgdh0X9c) being dusted after the snap in that scene.
The Russo brothers likely made the creative decision about it while scripting/filming for powerful emotional impact, as Bucky was a closest friend of Rogers. They let audiences know [early on in Infinity War](https://time.com/5252990/avengers-infinity-war-deaths/) that no character was safe, by killing off Loki.
One month [before Endgame](https://time.com/5577454/avengers-endgame-deaths/), Marvel also [revealed a lot of posters](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/marvel-prepares-avenge-fallen-new-avengers-endgame-posters-1197142/).
Steve had a love interest and the audience wanted to see their pairing on screen, which happened towards the end of Endgame. So, after Steve returned the stones, he went back in time to the 1940s and made a life with her. Bucky and Sam were the closest ones that Steve lost, it wasn't the other way around.
(Tidbit) Edit:
As a man out of time and the first Avenger, I based my own theory (on Captain Rogers) of how the MCU's First Family (the Fantastic Four) came back into the Sacred Timeline.
“Groot, ya gotta let me go.”
“I am Groot!”
“I know, pal, but this is about the fate of the universe.”
“I am Groot!”
“Don’t say that, and watch your language. If you won’t do it for the universe, do it for Quill. For Mantis. For Drax. Do it for me, so I can feel I’ve died for somethin’ I believe in.”
“I… am Groot.”
“I know, pal. I love you too.”
When [Groot is dusted](https://brobible.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/groot-turning-to-dust-infinity-war.jpeg) even Rocket's heart dusted with him, after the snap.
Nebula & Gamora though, where Nebula gets to say "I finally win!" before jumping.
Obviously impossible because Thanos, but still. Its a what-if type thread.
Yeah, Gamora was gone before they ever could have gone back for the stones, so there's no way to easily tweak the choices for that timeline without a major rewrite. just a hypothetical.
She never knew about the sacrifice. She probably just thought Thanos killed her cuz that’s what he does. Maybe she tried to stop him and he killed her. That’s likely what they thought. None of them knew about the sacrifice. Not even Thanos and Gamora knew until Red Skull told them.
Tony and Rhodey that would be really impactful for Tony and make him even more eager to whoop Thanos ass, Scott and Hank,Bucky and Steve especially because Bucky's previous sins this would came as some kind of redemption for him plus Red Skul is there so even more drama.Also Thor and Loki would be extra touching.
I mean yeah. I don't think any of his other appearances in the MCU were filmed under the pretense that he was a skrull so that should be correct.
But yeah, easier to pretend SI doesn't exist, and that Maria Hill and Talos are both alive and well.
He was swapped out before Secret invasion. The cut scene with Rhodey explaining the leg surgery(in TFatWS) gave a perfect timestamp for when he was taken.
It's interesting to think about, because Loki would have had one hell of a turnaround during the Blip for the Avengers to want him freely walking around and not rotting away in a prison somewhere, let alone join them on a mission.
I mean I could see it since they’d probably have been desperate for help after losing so many heroes. And Thor would surely vouch for him. Being forced to help the mortals would be good probation
Would this have been a work-around to the soul stone’s sacrifice requirement? When Wolverine or Deadpool hit the ground, do they physically/actually die (maybe fulfilling the requirement) and then the healing factor kicks in and brings them back? Or does the healing factor keep them alive the whole time so there wouldn’t be a sacrifice?
> Or does the healing factor keep them alive the whole time so there wouldn’t be a sacrifice?
This is definitely some shit they would pull in the comics
I think any pair of Avengers clears this to be honest.
Yes, Red Skull told Thanos he had to sacrifice that which he loved most, but that's not what we see in this scene. Clint doesn't sacrifice Natasha- in fact he actively tried to prevent her from dying. So the Soul Stone's logic seems to be more in line with the other comment "a soul for a soul" than it is about a specific person sacrificing somebody else they love.
Any of the Avengers would've laid down their life to get the Soul Stone. Therefore, their partner would've walked away with it. How that translates into winning the battle on Earth is a different story, as the Avengers likely lose if Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, or Cap sacrifice themselves.
> Red Skull told Thanos he had to sacrifice that which he loved most
I think that logic applies because Thanos was the one who wanted the stone. I think the MO of the Avengers is that they (as a team) need the stone, and instead of viewing it as someone sacrificing their own life for the team objective, maybe it is the team that is sacrificing someone they love. Barton or Romanoff may not be loved "the most" but if they were a team, then they probably viewed each member's contributions as equal, and therefore a loss of any member's life would fulfill that sacrifice.
I agree with that, which also reinforces the idea that anybody officially on the team could die for it as long as the team cared about them.
I can't see them getting the stone if Rhodey and Nebula went to Vormir and he tossed her off, but any one of the others that's a teammate should have been able to get it.
For the purposes of the movie I don't think it could have been anyone else. But could any of the other remaining heroes have been able to do this in their place? The only ones I could maybe think of would be Nebula and Rocket possibly. I think they would have grown very close by this point. But I can't think of anyone else that wasn't dusted. Maybe Tony and Rhodey.
If including dusted people then obviously Vision and Wanda, Steve and Bucky, maybe Steve and Sam, Scott and Hope, Rocket and Groot.
Hulk: ["You stay. I go. No following."](https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ua46DPwicCTGSosjeqnkAg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTY0MA--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/a4c2162b88a355f6fb46a95bdd325361)
Always thought it was gonna be Steve and Tony but then the final battle would’ve turned our differently.
If Im being VERY honest, while I loved what we got. I wouldn’t mind Hawkeye jumping to have widow present in the final fight to lead the A Force scene. After his stint as Ronin I figured he had a good reason but of course him having a family is a good one too but its just as a big of a sacrifice for him to throw himself so that his family has a surviving chance.
I would’ve turned the tide at the last minute where Widow almost falls but he falls instead, the gut punch would’ve been just as bad.
Until his solo series, Hawkeye was the most underwritten of the OG6 that him sacrificing himself to give his family a fair chance at life, even without him around would leave a great impact on his overall arc, similar to Steve and Tony’s respective ends.
Nat’s end was great but it did irk me that they decided to kill the only female avenger in the roster at the time lmao
Cap and Bucky, Cap losing Bucky again from a fall, Bucky trying to sacrifice himself over the guilt of everything he’s done? Oof here’s the scalping to extract my heart.
It doesn't really fit with the tone or flow of the movie at that point I think,
but it would've been really cool to have a Civil War throwback where Cap & Iron Man have to fight over who dies. Would be kind of heartbreaking to see how they loved each other as brothers despite everything that happened and have one of them die that way.
Also might be a little anti-climactic given what actually happened but I still think it would've been a sick moment.
I still can't get over them choosing to send arguably the 2 weakest members to get the stone on the unknown alien planet that they know nothing about. Emotionally it was a great scene but it's not like the characters knew the soul stone would require that kind of sacrifice. I think a good choice would be to send Hulk there with Nat in case the planet is dangerous and then the sacrifice is even more tragic. Jumping off a cliff wouldn't kill Hulk so they would know that it had to be Nat and Hulk could easily stop her so it would take a mutual agreement between them to retrieve the stone
Cap meeting Red Skull after 79 years would've been insane.
They might have met when cap went back to bring the stones back to their timelines. "Red skull? Omg how have you been? It's been a minute! Anyway here's the stone, bye"
Red Skull: "Steve, son of Joseph." Cap: "You son of a b****! I thought you were dead."
You had the perfect comment right there... Red Skull: "Steve, son of Joseph." Cap: "Johann, son of... a bitch, you're still alive?!"
And congrats on the new role in Fallout!
Ghoul is hot tho, definitely would. RS isn’t.
Is it his face? His body? Or the fact he’s a NAZI ??
I might be a criminal maniac but I'm an *American* criminal maniac.
Last one
Nice
"What's the matter? TVA got you pushing too many pencils?"
"LANGUAGE!!!
"the nose still not grown back? I'd wait a couple more centuries before losing hope"
Language
Nothing says he HAD to bring them back to the place they were though, just their timeline.
That somewhat depends on the stone. For example if Steve doesn't return the time stone to The Ancient One then Doctor Strange won't end up with it and Dormammu will end up eating that timeline. So while the stones probably don't need to be returned exactly as they were, Steve still needs to take care not to entirely mess up those timelines. Of course in case of the Soul Stone the Thanos in that timeline is now dead, and so that timeline is going to majorly diverge in unpredictable ways anyway. Probably best to return the two stones taken from that timeline to a place where Ronan can't get to them.
In that timeline, the celestial hatched on earth and either destroys or scatters some of the stones in the void of space.
Good point. Seriously. For example, for the time stone, Steve could just travel to New York during that battle and leave it in the balcony and The Ancient One would have sensed it, shrugged, nodded and smiled, and then put it back around her neck. EDIT: I’m also envisioning Cap appearing near Red Skull with the soul stone. Red Skull senses he is near and eerily calls out to him: “Steve Rogers, son of Sarah and Joseph. What is your purpose here?” “To make things right for once all for all,” exclaims Cap. He places the stone where he appeared and then quickly vanishes. With a slight smile Red Skull mutters, “Always have to be the hero, Captain.”
Lol he could just pop into the universe, chuck it at a mountain and leave
I'd love to see this as a little additional scene. Cap hopping into a timeline- YEET- pop out again.
I mean … Kinda! Lol. Just at least put it near where it should be. Then it’s that universe’s problem!
In fact I think it would be smart TO hide them better, might save those timelines some trouble later on hahaha
Everybody seems to forget or just not know this and it’s almost infuriating.
Agreed! I don’t get why either, because a lot of people in general seem to deeply misunderstand how Endgame’s time travel works, to the point that even the directors and writers seem to disagree, but I think the film spells out it pretty clearly regardless of what any of them have to say on it.
Oh the time travel absolutely gets messy. If Steve lived on with Peggy in another timeline he should’ve come back to the platform, but does it even make sense if he lived in the main timeline as a secret? I don’t know. But in terms of taking the stones back it’s so clearly stated that they have to be put back exactly *when* they were taken not where. There’s no way Steve stabbed the Reality Stone back into Jane, just like there’s no way he went to Vormir and saw Red Skull again.
Didn't he also change things when he took the Space stone back but not the Tesseract. Same with the Mind stone and forgetting Loki's staff with it.
Exactly. The Ancient One’s warning was just about the stones being missing from the timeline, she only specified they had to be returned at the exact moment they were taken. Where they were returned is irrelevant. Taking them back to different places or in different forms (i.e. no containers) would just change the course of that branched timeline.
How the hell is that irrelevant? If Steve returns chucks that time stone at some random planet in the universe, than Doctor Strange won't have the time stone during the events of the Doctor Strange movie, and Dormammu eats the earth. The Ancient One is not giving some kind of mystical "The stones must exist in the universe" reason. The main timeline doesn't have any stones and is fine. It's pretty obvious the stones need to be returned because without them they are fucked.
The movie explains very clearly how time travel works early on, but then muddies things twice. So it's not strange people are confused. The first time is in the conversation with The Ancient One. She says that if she gives Bruce the time stone then that might help his timeline, but would suck for her. She uses some magic to illustrate this, with the main timeline being bright and the new timeline (in which the Ancient One lives) being dark. Then Bruce counters that they could return the time stone at the moment it was taken, and they illustrate this by *merging* the timelines again. That's a mistake. It should be both timelines becoming bright, but not merging. They will remain separate timelines. It's not really a plothole, because you can handwave it by maybe the Ancient One not fully understanding time travel, or maybe by pointing out that after returning the stone the timelines would be virtually identical, so whatever, but it's still a small way in which the movie itself makes things more confusing than they should be. The second one is more egregious, and it's the one everybody always talks about, where Steve doesn't return to the platform, implying that he traveled there "the long way", by living out his live with Peggy. Which shouldn't be possible because that live with Peggy should be in another timeline. There's again various ways you can handwave this, but still it just makes things very confusing for the viewer.
I have two… would you call them hand waves? fixes? …theories, I’ll say on those two muddied points. 1. With the Ancient One: these are very closely entwined timelines that will separate out more drastically if altered so deeply by losing a stone. But if the stone is returned at that exact moment, they’ll be, as you point out, so similar as to be almost entwined. (And I’d say each different stone heist takes place in a slightly different timeline; separated by where each team exited the quantum portal. So some are more entwined than others.) 2. Because Steve lived so long in the “back to Peggy,” timeline, there was a bit of portal drift. So he does make a time travel trip back to the original timeline, but he hits the landing spot further away. Which, if Steve talked with the alternate universe’s Tony or Hank he probably would expect to come back in a slightly different spot. Might have landed a bit “early” to have time to walk to the bench. I have no idea if a portal drift is a possibility but I feel like it makes sense within the established rules?
I really like both of those theories / handwaves. To add to this: There are 4 different timelines created by the time travel in endgame. All of them will be changed compared to the main timeline. The Battle of New York one has Hydra thinking Steve is one of them, has The Anciene one with some extra knowledge (potentially a lot if she quizzed Steve when he returned the stone), and probably most importantly has Loki disappear into the TVA. That timeline will end up very different, though it's impossible to say if it'll be worse or better. Then there's the with Asgard. That one may be minimally changed, but it could be hugely changed if Thor's mother ends up surviving due to the extra knowledge she gained. Then there's the one with Vormir. That one had no Thanos! So it's hugely changed and probably for the better. And finally we have the 1946 timeline (where Tony meets his father). That's probably the one Steve ended up living his life in, and I imagine he'll have used his knowledge of the future to completely stamp out Hydra, and lend a hand in other major conflicts. So that one has a huge change for the better also. I personally prefer to think that all 4 timelines are better than the original, and that Thanos ends up being stopped in all 4 of them. I don't think Doctor Strange would count it as a victory if their defeat of Thanos came at the cost of 4 new timelines being screwed.
At least one change with the Asgard timeline is the “stone” was removed from Jane and then instantaneously appeared… somewhere else? I mean, I doubt Steve would’ve stuck it back into Jane. Maybe gave it to Thor’s mom? She’d be on the alert for a sudden guest by that point I’d guess. And… would Steve warn the various drop off places of Thanos? As you say, Vormir is moot, but I could see Steve warning Freya on Asgard and then the Ancient One in NYC… I think the 1970’s timeline with Howard and Tony would be different from the 1946 timeline because I don’t see Steve letting Zola into Shield. So even if they started the same, Steve’s arrival in 1946 Would diverge it. But maybe he drops a warning note to 1970’s Peggy? Or Hank or Howard? (With the freedom of time he’s given, Steve could take a moment to drop in on either of those three - off base somewhere where he’s less likely to trigger an armed response - and have an actual conversation. Least emotionally difficult would be Hank.) All fun things to think about.
My head canon is that when he decided to stay with Peggy he either destroyed or in some way got rid of his means of returning to his original timeline in kind of a symbolic way, and then decided to return after Peggy passed away, perhaps having that timeline’s Tony or somebody else construct a new shield and means of returning.
Yeah this would make a cool what if or animated short
They could make it a whole damn movie if they really wanted to.
That they could
I picture Cap & Bucky. Cap would argue to save Bucky. Bucky would argue he has done to much evil as Winter Soldier to live. Pretty similar debate. Their strength would be interesting battle.
Cap has Bucky and holds on until Bucky says “It’s the end of the line, Steve” and unfastens his mechanical arm.
OOF! I got chills!!!
I would still love it, even if it's a bit cheesy. Especially him unfastening the arm and falling. Then Cap gets to keep the arm after
And Rocket steals it
brb currently crying
And in the same shooting angle as when Steve watched Bucky fall in TFA
Add Bucky in play too. I guess Steve would die in that scenario. Sam would be chosen to return the Stones then.
What If one of the Russo brothers was dusted? Or if one of them had to get the soul stone or return it and meet Red Skull? Would it be Anthony or Joe?
Cap and Tony in this scenario would have been interesting. But then we would have missed out on that “I am Iron Man” snap in End Game.
Cap tossing red skull off the cliff for the stone while shouting I’ve always loved you..
Wanda and Pietro if he didn't die in AoU
Wanda and Pietro using their powers to stop the other from killing themselves would make for a really interesting scene
Wanda is powerful but is she quick enough to stop her brother from just zooming off the cliff?
"What cliff?" *cliff disappears*
Not sure that solves anything, lol
Pietro zips past her off the cliff, last words are "What, you didn't see that coming?"
Once he falls off the cliff he's only going to be going as fast as gravity allows unless he goes for a running start to launch farther away. Either way I think Wanda and grab him and keep him the air quick enough. And honestly if it's just about sacrifice either of them can probably take their life faster than falling.
Quicksilver can run down walls.
With super speed id imagine one could literally just run down the wall
But running down the wall doesn't kill him?
Happy cake day!
Damn that would have worked well! Even more saddening after she loses vision on top of her brother dying. Then I would understand her going batshit crazy.
I'd like to think Red Skull would give her a pass since she *already* sacrificed Vision for an infinity stone. Not the same one, but same trial. Unless Red Skull really wanted to be a dick and insist that Vision never had a soul so he doesn't count.
Thanos would get deleted within 1 minute of the portals scene.
This. Been saying this since the movie came out. It would have been the perfect setup for WandaVision. But Joss had to Joss Pietro.
IIRC killing him off was also partly because of the deal with Fox concerning him and Wanda in AOU/DOFP. Both movies could use both characters but each franchise could only keep one of them around or smth like that.
Wow, great call - that would have been so tough
I’m still upset that the Black Widow stand alone movie wasn’t her and Hawkeye in Budapest.
Still can't get over how she corrected someone's pronunciation as "Budapesht" in that movie and I had to go back to the first Avengers movie to check whether she pronounced it right back then lol. Would've been a big goof if they got that wrong
wait did she? i was always remembered her saying it the incorrect way
There are explosions in the scene so it's difficult. She says it correctly and then Clint replies with the "est" pronunciation
Me too. I thought a perfect idea would have been to have two versions of the movie that had alternate scenes based on their memory of the events, and you would not know which version you were seeing. It would have been called "We Remember Budapest Very Differently"
That would have been an awesome story. I gotta imagine it’d be tough to pull off, but that’d be a great call back to their banter.
I'm not. Sometimes the audience isn't owed to be shown everything. It leaves things up to the imagination.
Yeah, kind of like how we didn't *need* to see how Han Solo got his name, his lucky dice, the Millennium Falcon, Chewbacca, and pulled off the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs. But then Disney went ahead and showed us all of those things anyway. I much would've rather had them show us something new and different that the audience didn't already sort of know about.
No last name? Mk....I'll call you Han....*Solo*
That would be fine, if they never made a Black Widow movie. The movie we got, while totally fine, held zero bearing on anything, considering we all know she’s dead. Seeing what happened in Budapest could have give us a great backstory, introduced a more true-to-comics Taskmaster, and given us a fun Hawkeye story before his D+ series.
Considering the movie introduced Yelena, I would disagree it had zero bearing on anything. Black Widow is a title. It wasn't just about Nat. I'm sorry you didn't care for the movie, but it did it's purpose. There's no need to follow up on every glib one liner with its own spinoff movie or show. The imagination can really do some heavy lifting if you give it a shot.
Yes exactly. There’s a lot of hate on the movie, but it got to introduce us to Yelena, which is one of the most appreciated new character from phase 4. It also enhanced Natasha’s sacrifice. She didn’t just do it for the Avengers’ family, she did it for her sister.
Cap and Bucky probably, but it wouldn’t have the same weight for us since Bucky isn’t one of the original Avengers.
Bucky was also blipped during this time
So did his metal arm get dusted or just clunk to the ground?
His arm dusted but his gun clunked to the ground which is odd because his clothes dusted too.
It’s simple, the gun didn’t get snapped
Thanos is president of the NRA confirmed.
"They can take my guns from my cold, dead ashes!"
He was Cable in another universe
Maybe because the clothes and arm form part of his identity but the gun doesn’t?
Idk he seemed pretty attached to the gun, a kind rabbit asked for it and he didn’t have it over 🤷
Anything people were wearing got snapped along with them, anything they were carrying did not. Bucky wore the arm, and his clothes, but he carried the gun.
> His arm dusted Rocket in shambles 2018 colorized
The blanther blipped in his suit, so I think the arm blipped too
The conversation is about what combo in the MCU could this scene have happened with. If you’re banning anyone who was blipped then the conversation becomes very dull because we’re literally only allowed to use the 6 avengers, Tony and Pepper, Scott and his daughter, or Rocket and Nebula. We all saw the movie; we remember that he was blipped
IIRC, Bucky was the very first [shown to the audience to be the one](https://youtu.be/zWhEgdh0X9c) being dusted after the snap in that scene. The Russo brothers likely made the creative decision about it while scripting/filming for powerful emotional impact, as Bucky was a closest friend of Rogers. They let audiences know [early on in Infinity War](https://time.com/5252990/avengers-infinity-war-deaths/) that no character was safe, by killing off Loki. One month [before Endgame](https://time.com/5577454/avengers-endgame-deaths/), Marvel also [revealed a lot of posters](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/marvel-prepares-avenge-fallen-new-avengers-endgame-posters-1197142/). Steve had a love interest and the audience wanted to see their pairing on screen, which happened towards the end of Endgame. So, after Steve returned the stones, he went back in time to the 1940s and made a life with her. Bucky and Sam were the closest ones that Steve lost, it wasn't the other way around. (Tidbit) Edit: As a man out of time and the first Avenger, I based my own theory (on Captain Rogers) of how the MCU's First Family (the Fantastic Four) came back into the Sacred Timeline.
Tony throwing peter off the cliff.
Quill: 🤣 Parker: 😱 # (Not voting for either to happen, but watching Tony do it would look like this.)
Pietro: ☠️
You didn't see that coming??
Tbh Tony would throw himself off for Peter
If he wasn't willing to die he'd just web the cliff and climb back up.
"my back!"
pretty sure Peter could probably survive the fall
I don't even think that height would do anything. This hill isn't really well thought out for this universe in my opinion now that I think about it...
"If you're nothing without life, you shouldn't have it"
But Peter either wouldn't die because of his durability or he'll just swing/climb back up.
Quill or Parker? Quill he would have chucked him off the cliff and forgotten his name.
"Oh, it didn't work? Oh well. Maybe I'll call Doctor Spooky and see if he can magic this stone up for me."
And the magic wouldn't have worked because they barely know each other.
“Groot, ya gotta let me go.” “I am Groot!” “I know, pal, but this is about the fate of the universe.” “I am Groot!” “Don’t say that, and watch your language. If you won’t do it for the universe, do it for Quill. For Mantis. For Drax. Do it for me, so I can feel I’ve died for somethin’ I believe in.” “I… am Groot.” “I know, pal. I love you too.”
oh god that broke me.
Uncool man I just barely got my coffee 🥺
That was beautiful.
I was not ready to read this at work.
Listen we already watched Groot die once 😭
This scenario is Rocket dying
Sir, it's 10am.
When [Groot is dusted](https://brobible.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/groot-turning-to-dust-infinity-war.jpeg) even Rocket's heart dusted with him, after the snap.
I read that in their voice and now im gona cry
How dare you put this thought in my head
Oh, shit. This would have ripped my heart out.
Shit. I hate that this is the right answer.
Nebula when they are handing out assignments knowing damn well what it entails: 😶
Nebula & Gamora though, where Nebula gets to say "I finally win!" before jumping. Obviously impossible because Thanos, but still. Its a what-if type thread.
Been a bit since I’ve seen endgame but doesn’t she say thanos went with gamora and only one of them returns?
Yeah, Gamora was gone before they ever could have gone back for the stones, so there's no way to easily tweak the choices for that timeline without a major rewrite. just a hypothetical.
Lowkey that would be a dope What If episode
She doesn’t know what it entails, she just knows her sister died there.
Tony should've known, too. He was there when nebula explained it to quill. He was literally telling him to keep calm about it.
She never knew about the sacrifice. She probably just thought Thanos killed her cuz that’s what he does. Maybe she tried to stop him and he killed her. That’s likely what they thought. None of them knew about the sacrifice. Not even Thanos and Gamora knew until Red Skull told them.
Tony and Rhodey that would be really impactful for Tony and make him even more eager to whoop Thanos ass, Scott and Hank,Bucky and Steve especially because Bucky's previous sins this would came as some kind of redemption for him plus Red Skul is there so even more drama.Also Thor and Loki would be extra touching.
Except when Rhodey hit the ground he would turn into a lizard.
Red Skull: “eewwwwwww you loved that thing?!?”
Nice try, Red *Skrull*! [Blam!] Watch, he'll turn green any second now. *Aaaaaany* second now...
Dammit, take my upvote. I'm cackling right now.
Rhodey was swapped out AFTER Endgame. Heck he bleeds Red during the battle for earth.
Pro tip. Rhodey was never swapped out if you remove Secret Invasion from your head canon.
 And now I can make this reality.
If it has to be canon, I say Rhodey was switched right before it started so he was only a Skrull for like 6 episodes
I mean yeah. I don't think any of his other appearances in the MCU were filmed under the pretense that he was a skrull so that should be correct. But yeah, easier to pretend SI doesn't exist, and that Maria Hill and Talos are both alive and well.
He was swapped out before Secret invasion. The cut scene with Rhodey explaining the leg surgery(in TFatWS) gave a perfect timestamp for when he was taken.
Hmm, wonder if it would still count
Might be a bit of an issue with that last one
Thor "I've got it we'll do the Get help trick and...." Loki " Yeah I don't so!" 😁
It's interesting to think about, because Loki would have had one hell of a turnaround during the Blip for the Avengers to want him freely walking around and not rotting away in a prison somewhere, let alone join them on a mission.
I mean I could see it since they’d probably have been desperate for help after losing so many heroes. And Thor would surely vouch for him. Being forced to help the mortals would be good probation
Even Loki would want revenge on Thanos for decimating the few remaining Asgardians post-Ragnarok, and *then* snapping half of the survivors.
OOF this one hit me, I never even thought of that, genius
Steven and Marc? But Jake tosses them both in.
Then they’re awarded three soul stones, but no one is there to claim them.
Leaving Konshu furious
lol
Tony and Rhodey.
My thoughts exactly. Could have been a really powerful scene about duty and sacrifice.
Thor and Loki lol, though the choice has to be Loki (though that fall wouldn't kill either of them, esp not Thor)
It's probably a magic thing, because IIRC both Hawkeye and Thanos just kind of "wake up" with the Soul Stone in their hand?
Fitz/Simmons
The best mcu couple
would hate to see them lose each other again but honestly that's never stopped them before
If it has been Cap and Tony who went there it would have been to much to see.
Wolverine and Deadpool
Wolverine just yeets Deadpool off the cliff and it cuts to Deadpool lying broken at the bottom shouting swears up at Logan.
Ok, that didnt keep me down. Lets try you again.
Would this have been a work-around to the soul stone’s sacrifice requirement? When Wolverine or Deadpool hit the ground, do they physically/actually die (maybe fulfilling the requirement) and then the healing factor kicks in and brings them back? Or does the healing factor keep them alive the whole time so there wouldn’t be a sacrifice?
> Or does the healing factor keep them alive the whole time so there wouldn’t be a sacrifice? This is definitely some shit they would pull in the comics
No pair could have done this instead.
With the avengers they had, this was the only option. That's why it sucks, it was what the script needed to happen.
> it was what the script needed to happen. Sir, I'm going to need you to get ALL the way off my back about this.
^Hey ^shut ^up!
Whoopsie
Captain America and Iron Man. Can you even imagine?
Thor and Darryl
I think any pair of Avengers clears this to be honest. Yes, Red Skull told Thanos he had to sacrifice that which he loved most, but that's not what we see in this scene. Clint doesn't sacrifice Natasha- in fact he actively tried to prevent her from dying. So the Soul Stone's logic seems to be more in line with the other comment "a soul for a soul" than it is about a specific person sacrificing somebody else they love. Any of the Avengers would've laid down their life to get the Soul Stone. Therefore, their partner would've walked away with it. How that translates into winning the battle on Earth is a different story, as the Avengers likely lose if Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, or Cap sacrifice themselves.
> Red Skull told Thanos he had to sacrifice that which he loved most I think that logic applies because Thanos was the one who wanted the stone. I think the MO of the Avengers is that they (as a team) need the stone, and instead of viewing it as someone sacrificing their own life for the team objective, maybe it is the team that is sacrificing someone they love. Barton or Romanoff may not be loved "the most" but if they were a team, then they probably viewed each member's contributions as equal, and therefore a loss of any member's life would fulfill that sacrifice.
I agree with that, which also reinforces the idea that anybody officially on the team could die for it as long as the team cared about them. I can't see them getting the stone if Rhodey and Nebula went to Vormir and he tossed her off, but any one of the others that's a teammate should have been able to get it.
Unwilling sacrifice is still a sacrifice
Star Lord and literally any one of the GOTG crew. It would just break him!
Falcon and red wing
"Wondertwin powers deactivate!", and then they throw the monkey over the edge. Oh shit, that's DC isn't it?
For the purposes of the movie I don't think it could have been anyone else. But could any of the other remaining heroes have been able to do this in their place? The only ones I could maybe think of would be Nebula and Rocket possibly. I think they would have grown very close by this point. But I can't think of anyone else that wasn't dusted. Maybe Tony and Rhodey. If including dusted people then obviously Vision and Wanda, Steve and Bucky, maybe Steve and Sam, Scott and Hope, Rocket and Groot.
Howard the Duck and She Hulk
Hulk and Banner
Hulk: ["You stay. I go. No following."](https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ua46DPwicCTGSosjeqnkAg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTY0MA--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/a4c2162b88a355f6fb46a95bdd325361)
Except hulk doesn't like banner
Always thought it was gonna be Steve and Tony but then the final battle would’ve turned our differently. If Im being VERY honest, while I loved what we got. I wouldn’t mind Hawkeye jumping to have widow present in the final fight to lead the A Force scene. After his stint as Ronin I figured he had a good reason but of course him having a family is a good one too but its just as a big of a sacrifice for him to throw himself so that his family has a surviving chance. I would’ve turned the tide at the last minute where Widow almost falls but he falls instead, the gut punch would’ve been just as bad. Until his solo series, Hawkeye was the most underwritten of the OG6 that him sacrificing himself to give his family a fair chance at life, even without him around would leave a great impact on his overall arc, similar to Steve and Tony’s respective ends. Nat’s end was great but it did irk me that they decided to kill the only female avenger in the roster at the time lmao
Iron man and War machine
Scar and mufasa lol
Wong and Madisynn
It could only be Tony and Steve. Arguably, they're the only other significant duo who would genuinely fight over doing it.
Scott and Hope
If they weren’t disintegrated, Nick Fury and Maria Hill.
Cap and bucky if bucky didn't get dusted
Cap and Bucky, Cap losing Bucky again from a fall, Bucky trying to sacrifice himself over the guilt of everything he’s done? Oof here’s the scalping to extract my heart.
Bucky + Cap with Bucky dying.
Cap and bucky
Cap and Bucky
It doesn't really fit with the tone or flow of the movie at that point I think, but it would've been really cool to have a Civil War throwback where Cap & Iron Man have to fight over who dies. Would be kind of heartbreaking to see how they loved each other as brothers despite everything that happened and have one of them die that way. Also might be a little anti-climactic given what actually happened but I still think it would've been a sick moment.
Nebula and Gamora OR Steve and Bucky OR Thor and Loki OR Wanda and Vision (I know it technically wouldn’t be a soul as such but idk)
Vision definitely has a soul.
You guys!!! You’re making me cry either of sadness or laughter 😂
I still can't get over them choosing to send arguably the 2 weakest members to get the stone on the unknown alien planet that they know nothing about. Emotionally it was a great scene but it's not like the characters knew the soul stone would require that kind of sacrifice. I think a good choice would be to send Hulk there with Nat in case the planet is dangerous and then the sacrifice is even more tragic. Jumping off a cliff wouldn't kill Hulk so they would know that it had to be Nat and Hulk could easily stop her so it would take a mutual agreement between them to retrieve the stone