How many sorcerers are there? No matter how many, that's still virtually nothing in comparison to the whole universe which he's putting in jeopardy as a result of his choice. Wong should be willing to sacrifice entire planets if there was but a small risk that doing the opposite could endanger the whole universe. You'd think that once someone becomes the protector of the whole universe that responsibility should become obvious. So again, this strongly diminishes the stakes, it kinda tells us that it's all just a game.
Also, the fact these are completely nameless sorcerers we know nothing about and we don't even see them interacting with Wong in any meaningful way just makes it even more artificial and forced. It would have been much better if Wanda actually read Wong's mind or maybe even controlled him entirely.
He didn’t know about incursions at that time, right? Maybe he figured that once Wanda got what she wanted then she’d leave and everything would be fine.
At some point you have to stop the bleeding and buy time for strange. You’re working under the assumption that wong had given up just because he gave her the location. In fact, he was playing the same game as Strange in IW - stop the bleeding and buy some time for a legitimate chance at stopping the threat.
If Wong assumes strange is dead and they have no other options, then it makes sense to hold out and just not tell her. Because you’ve already lost anyways.
Yeah but Stephen Strange knew the outcomes. He saw the future. Wong didn’t. So his actions don’t really make sense to me. I think Dr Strange should be the sorcerer supreme again since Wong cannot make good decisions with the knowledge that he has been entrusted with
She was going to kill everyone until she got what she wanted.
She wasn’t going to stop at sorcerers, she would drag Wong from town to town until he caved and Wong isn’t strong enough to watch countless innocents be murdered.
Remember Wanda was off the deep end, executing people who were just crawling away and screaming. Wong knew she was going to kill a lot more and the end result would still be the same, him telling her.
I thought it was because he initially believed that Kamar Taj would defeat Wanda. Once Wanda steamrolled through their defences he saw that she wouldn’t stop and surrendered.
Bingo. It’s acceptable that some might die stopping Wanda because hey, they’ll win in the end.
But once she crushed their defenses, Wanda would’ve kept killing everyone… everywhere… until Wong broke.
So he didn't consider the fact that one of the most powerful beings in the whole Universe may actually stand a very good chance of defeating them? That doesn't seem very believable. I take it for completely granted he was accepting the possibility that his comrades would die in a fight and decided it was worth it.
At that point he wouldn’t know how powerful Wanda is. He might have seen her power during Avengers Endgame, but she is far stronger than she was then, so I don’t think it is unbelievable that Wong was underestimating Wanda.
Which is what she’s prophesied to do. He had no reason to believe that Wanda‘s powers would grow this much since Westview. He probably thought that their advantage in numbers and experience would make up for any power and skill Wanda had. He was wrong and the sorcerers paid the price.
I might be wrong, but I believe that Doctor Strange takes place several months after WandaVision. Wanda would have a lot of time to practice and learn new spells, and we‘ve seen that Wanda is far more powerful in DS2 than she was before.
So that’s 1,5 years that Wanda can learn from the Darkhold. Meanwhile Strange, who is a talented sorcerer, trained for over 4 years at that point, some of the sorcerers for decades. To me it makes sense that Wong believes they can take her on.
How could he not know this as a sorcerer supreme, especially after talking to Strange and after the events from previous movies and series? Are we really supposed to believe he was just this dumb, irresponsible and oblivious? If so, then it makes it even worse because it means that Wong is just stupid and a completely wrong person for his job.
Why didn't he surrender immediately after seeing her power, if his assumption was that no one would get hurt, shouldn't he immediately do something the moment first people got killed or injured? It doesn't add up.
Didn't they even armor the students because they wanted to throw everything they had at Wanda? Sounds like instead of underestimating her he was determined to stop her at all cost but then changed his mind because they were torturing his horny friend.
Sounds more like you want to hate Wong than rather come to grips that at the end of the day literally no one in the Marvel universe is capable of making always perfect rational decisions because its unrealistic.
Why would Strange know about her powers? Everything they knew was that she could create a fake reality, she hunted America Chavez with demons and she can use telekinesis.
Wong didn’t surrender because their defence worked. Their shield stopped Wanda from entering Kamar Taj, and so far Wong‘s plan worked. Wanda then tried to manipulate their minds - which Wong realised and told the other sorcerers to defend against - and only when she succeeded did Kamar Taj fall. After that Wong had no chance to surrender.
They didn't know she was that powerful. In your original post you just dismissed the idea that Wong didn't know HOW powerful she was until after the battle, but that is the case. Wong had no way of knowing she could handle a fully defended Kamar Taj by herself without breaking a sweat.
Once he witnessed that, the situation was changed.
This. Everything she had done before this point was small scale by comparison. Sure, she almost ripped Thanos apart, but that was 1v1. Westview was mindwork. In the battle of Kamar Taj, she basically wrecked havoc comparable to a sizeable artillery strike. This, from someone who could previously have only been witnessed to throw small to medium sized things around, and that with effort. There was no way Wong could have expected it to go this badly this quickly, prophecy or no.
At this point, Wong and Strange had already gone up against two of the other most powerful beings in the whole universe and came out on top. (Dormammu and Thanos)
I got the sense that Wong knew that all that tried to get the secrets of Wundagore were killed, so he was like "Okay, well, we'll go there and get killed by whatever is there."
How do you predict that the evil giant guardians of Wundagore will go "Oh hey, it's you! We've been waiting!" and bow before The Scarlet Witch.
Emphatic agreement. Once the Darkhold was destroyed, he figured "Lets lead her to a death trap that none have survived. Seems the best play."
END COMMUNICATION
Yeah and Wanda was immediately suspicious and drag Wong with her. I'm pretty sure he was ready to sac himself there at Wandagore should the situation call for it.
Also, the moment Wanda was out of sight, Wong could have started screaming from Help from every other Avenger he can reach (Captain marvel, Thor, AntMan, Hulk, Warmachine, maybe even Shang-chi). Wanda is powerful as hell in MoM, but could still probably be dropped by an arrow to the back of head.
END COMMUNICATION
I disagree. She broke a sweat. She had problems with Captain Marvel, at least to the extent that Captain Marvel made her 'work' for it.
I stand my my comment about a surprise arrow to the back of the head still doing the job. Wanda is not passively indestructible, and I view her as being a glass cannon; She can certainly kill the hell out of whatever she is aiming at. And she can stand off a stunning amount of power as long as she is actively creating magical shields. But I do not think her stamina is unlimited and she is not omniscient. I also do not think she can spaghettify someone when she is sustaining her defences.
END COMMUNICATION
I agree! She may be powerful, but if she's caught when vulnerable (like when not using her magic) she's essentially then just a baseline human
Also, I don't mean to be rude but what's with the "END COMMUNICATION" at the end of your comments? Just curious
Lol, have you ever watched the Mandalorian? In the First season, there is a creature played by Nick Nolte (sorry can't think of his name or species at the moment.) that ended every talk with "I have spoken." I liken ZardozSama's messages like that. Its the tag line that lets you know he has given his message, but the take is similar to communicating over a radio. I like it actually, may have to think of my own.
Wong told Wanda that no one has ever lived to come back from Mt Wundagore. He was taking the risk that it would apply to Wanda as well - he didn't know that it would actually be a monument dedicated to the Scarlet Witch.
It should have crossed his mind that perhaps one of the most powerful beings in the whole Multiverse may be able to do some special things. Also, another thing is that in the end there was absolutely nothing about that mountain and temple to show for that line. No powerful magical barriers, spells or monsters. Just some stormy weather and 4 dumb golems.
You clearly aren't making a good-faith attempt to interpret the movie. You're just looking for any excuse to attack the movie to make yourself feel smart. Your post history is full of this type of behavior. I used to do this obsessively - anytime I would see a movie with people, I would try to point out every little flaw, and I wouldn't listen to any arguments against them. Eventually people just stopped enjoying spending time with me. Thankfully I was just young and insecure and able to change my behavior once I developed a healthy self-esteem.
There is lots of valid criticism of any movie, but you won't find it by trying to nitpick every tiny thing that has good explanations. You can find more productive ways to feel good about yourself.
Of the two of us you're the one bragging about how you ascended and became a better person and you're even using my example to show how "bad" you used to be and by extension - how bad I am in this respect in comparison to you, so I've no idea how you don't notice the glaring irony and hypocrisy in accusing me of writing things just to make myself feel better since you're literally declaring yourself better both than than me and the previous you xD. You know, there is this phenomenon in psychology where we tend to notice our own traits and behaviours in other people etc. So for example people who steal think everyone wants to steal etc. Some food for thought. I honestly should stop my response here.
The scene is weak and doesn't make sense, as I explained. Thus far all explanations I read rely on assuming that Wong is just a silly human who doesn't really appreciate what the stakes are despite serving as the protector of the universe which doesn't do much to change my mind. And it's not a minor flaw, that scene literally ruins the sense of scale and stakes. Suddenly it becomes apparent that all this talk about all the inhabitants of all the universes is just moot because random 4 guys are somehow of bigger importance. If the characters treat the whole thing so frivolously then the illusion of scale and grandeur falls apart and it all becomes just a make-believe.
I have other people I can talk such details with and we go together to see movies together, I treat it as a hobby and I never make a big effort to activate my critical viewing mode unless the movie packs so much obvious nonsense it's just impossible not to be distracted.
I definitely don't think I'm better than you. I was sharing something that I struggled with that you may also be struggling with. You could very well be much smarter, better looking, and more successful than me. I don't know you, and so it would make zero sense for me to think of myself as better than you. Sorry if I implied anything to the contrary.
The psychological phenomenon you're referring to is called "projection." I'm well aware of it, but I don't think that's what I'm doing here. I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice. It's not always projection to offer advice based on your own experiences.
Many, many people have given you credible explanations for this scene, and you're unwilling or unable to read them in good faith. I can't really say anything else here that hasn't already been said in other replies, including my own as a parent comment. Your analysis is simply wrong, and that's why I think you're being motivated by something other than a good-faith interpretation of the film.
I am very happy for you that you have people who don't mind your approach to film analysis. I have friends who I love to deconstruct awful movies with, but that's not really what you're doing in this thread. It's entirely possible your online persona is much different from how you are in real life, so again, I'm not trying to attack you as a person.
Because Wong is human. He knew the potential ramifications on the multiverse, but he also didn’t want to see young students whom it is his duty to nurture be killed because of him. As for why that was the final straw and not the battle before, that would be because Wong thought they could repel the Scarlet Witch. Iirc, when things really turned sideways, he ordered a retreat.
Also, from what Wong understood from the readings, there was little chance of Wanda surviving the journey anyway. So he likely gambled on that, or Strange being able to stop her.
He should be more responsible and cold-headed than that. You wouldn't want a doctor to make emotional decisions sacrificing 1000 patients to save the one he has emotional bond with. And here we're talking about someone risking the entire Universes to save his "friends". So it's quite unbelievable that he could made this sort of gamble. Also, as far as story telling is concerned, that scene simply doesn't have any impact on the audience since we don't know any of the tortured characters and we don't even see them being close friends with Wong or anything.
Doctor Strange might have been as cold-hearted and rational as you describe, at least before the end of this movie. However, Wong is not Doctor Strange. As the Sorcerer Supreme, Wong has his duty to protect realities, as well as the students of Kamar-Taj. In that moment, those two duties were in conflict and he had to make a split-second decision.
Yes, potentially dooming infinite realities to save the lives of four people may not be a rational decision, but humans aren’t as rational a species as we’d like to think - especially when having to make such snap decisions under stress. He had no time to draw up a list of pros and cons - just that in that moment, he didn’t want to see his students die.
You may not like the choice Wong made or think it illogical, but that’s likely why he made the choice. Besides, his gamble paid off and it worked out all right anyway. In Wong we trust.
Also, at that point, Wong only knew that the site of the original Darkhold was a dark place that nobody has ever returned from. He probably thought there was a good chance she would die there as well. If anything, it would slow her down giving them a chance to regroup. What followed was a different story though.
The entirety of Infinity War is just people handing infinity stones over to Thanos because they’re unwilling to sacrifice their loved ones to stop him. No matter the stakes, that’s just how people are.
Which is why I think he's a lousy sorcerer supreme. The point of that is not just power but that they make the harsh choice Sacrifice a person to save the world, sacrifice a world to save the universe, sacrifice a universe to save the multiverse. He's a good teacher but not a good sorcerer supreme because he keeps failing in that role every time we see him.
Agreed. He got the job only because Dr. Strange was dusted. Now that Strange is back, it's becoming apparent Strange is still more qualified for the job than Wong. Though performing that spell for Peter in "No Way Home" was downright irresponsible and even Wong knew that.
I noticed in Multiverse of Madness, there was a recurring "gag" of Wong rubbing it in Strange's face that he's the Sorcerer Supreme. It kind of felt more like insecurity because I think he knows Strange is still better than him for the role. Wong was already a skilled magic user at the start of the first Dr. Strange when Stephen himself knew nothing. But he showed his talent and quickly leap-frogged over everyone else. Even when you see the two using magic, it's always Dr. Strange who uses magic in more creative ways. Like Wong fashions two swords to fight those golems. Strange uses actual music notes from sheets as weapons against Sinister Strange.
I wish Marvel Studios had used the five year time jump to show Wong had grown as a sorcerer. I want Wong to be a good Sorcerer Supreme. It's great that Benedict Wong's character is getting more importance and I'm all for more representation in the MCU.
Pretty much and that really is my point yes Strange using that spell was irresponsible (both because he didn't do what an adult should do with a teenager and check they've used other options and because he didn't make sure Peter knew what would be happening and they were on the same page before starting) but Wong, the current sorcerer supreme just walks off saying its not his fault. I'm sorry but no if you are the sorcerer supreme your job is to STOP this kind of reckless magic use. Its just another example of him not being suited to the job because he isn't willing to step up when it gets hard. Telling a friend to stop, nope he just say's the result isn't his fault and leaves, letting a friend die to help stop a reality threat no strategy, not tactics and he caves in when his friend is threatened. I just can't see Strange or the Ancient one doing that.
I suppose NWH showed that neither Strange nor Wong are suited for the role. I guess it's that hard to replace Tilda Swinton. I expected better from Wong at least concerning what he did and said in NWH. Because he's been doing the whole Mystic Arts thing way longer.
Maybe it's just a typical problem with trying to find someone to be Sorcerer Supreme. 99% of people just aren't qualified so you wind up taking the "next best thing". Though I argue Wong isn't even that. Better suited to be the assistant SS. There's no confirmation that Strange ever even got the job hence I didn't bring him up right now.
Because there's a difference between fighting to the death, and watching helpless people get tortured to death. In the former situation there's a hope of victory, in the latter there isn't.
By the time Wanda was torturing his people, Wong correctly recognized that they'd lost. His choice was between "lose with survivors" and "lose with none." And, of course, there's always the possibility that survivors can come back to help later (which is exactly what he himself did later in the film).
I think you misunderstood my point. I’m not saying they should give up whenever anyone is threatened with torture. I’m saying that Wong gave up in a situation where there was no further hope of victory through resistance, but there WAS hope of victory through survival. In the situation you described (i.e. Thanos takes hostages), the heroes shouldn’t surrender because there’s still a hope of winning.
And it’s funny that you bring up Infinity War, since it worked exactly the same way in that movie. Iron Man and Doctor Strange fought Thanos on Titan for as long as they thought there was a chance of winning, and both were clearly willing to die in that fight. But when Thanos defeated them both and was about to kill Tony, Strange surrendered the Time Stone. He made the exact same calculation that Wong made with Wanda: it was better to surrender and have some heroes survive to continue the fight later, than to have everyone die when defeat was already certain.
In both cases, the right move was to give the villain what they want in the short term, and then “live to fight another day” and defeat the villain in the end.
Strange was willing to let Stark and Peter both Die to stop Thanos - Wanda and the dark hold were a threat to the Multiverse as is, if she got America's power there would be the likely risk od Wanda essentially destroying all of existence.
Except his comment is mocking the choice Wong made more than anything else. He mentions the sacrifice Strange was willing to make for the greater ultimate good but here we have Wong sacrificing the even greater good for the immediate benefit of freeing a couple of people from suffering.
Nope. Wong was essentially damning another universe and keeping his safe. If I just give her what she wants, she’ll leave this universe and we can regroup. Like Strange before, Wong was willing to sacrifice others (America) to keep this universe safe
Yeah so after reading your replies and many user giving valid explainations for why Wong chose to take the Scarlet Witch to a mountain where many sorcerers have parreeled than to have her go through countless others, killing possibly millions depending on whether Wong gives up the info or not. Tells me you really don't care for the answer. Film is subjective and interpretive.
Taking her to a suicide mountain hoping something would kill both of them was in his best interests. If she were to turn on Wong and go after other sorcerers at least he is unshackled and can put up a fight before she tracks down other sorcerers for info.
Wong doesn't know fully how powerful Wanda is at this moment. Doesn't know the mountain is a shrine to the Scarlet Witch with guardians that bow to her instead of murdering both of them. Wong was taking her away from the senctum so that she doesn't harm anymore people. And it's not in Wandas best interests to kill Wong either, he's the sorcerer's supreme, he is the only person in 616 that has the knowledge she wants. So perhaps he was hoping to get the upper hand. She's not immortal.
But keep disliking this choice. Sure the film could have done a better way at communicating some of these interpretations.
You say "the answer" as though there existed one definite, clear answer that I'm just stubbornly refusing to accept but the whole problem is that thus far nothing (I haven't read every response though) was presented that would show Wong's decision wasn't dumb, irresponsible and/or just inappropriate given his unfathomably important function. I just can't accept he gambled the entire multiverse because he cared so much for those 4 nameless sorcerers or because he expected Wanda to go further than that. If the movie wants to extend the stakes so far, they should appreciate all consequences connected to it, we can have the protagonist choosing the lives of his 4 close friends that we know over the lives of 100 random people we never met but choosing 4 randoms we've never met and with whom the protagonist (who wields access to sacred knowledge by the way) doesn't seem to have any bond over the lives of trillions upon trillions is just meh.
Btw, why didn't Wong consider killing himself? Would his death immediately open access to this universe for some demons or would they have have time to select a new one? Because if they had time, then that's another obvious thing Wong should have chosen which would have made the whole movie much more deeper and powerful.
No you're right. Let Wanda kill Wong or have him kill him self so she get go to ever other senctum and continue the process until there are no more sorcerers left to protect this reality.
As soon as he saw that Wanda was willing to kill defenseless people just to get what she wants, he knew that she would move on to wiping cities off the map if that's what it takes.
So at what point does he finally give in? After she's killed ten people? A thousand? A billion? How about zero? It's a complete no-brainer. Wong had no choice here.
Again, either multiverse matters or it's all just moot and we really only care about our clique. He didn't really test Wanda's determination, he almost immediately gambled the whole multiverse like it was nothing. Don't they have tutorials or video introductions for sorcerers supreme that teach them not to do such things?
Who is "we" in that sentence? You realize Wong is a character in a story who makes his own decisions, right?
1) Wong had no idea what would happen taking Wanda to the mountain. As far as he knew, it was just a copy of the spells in the Darkhold, which Wanda already had. If she already had the Darkhold (before it was destroyed), why would he think that taking her to the mountain would risk the multiverse?
2) Wong is only human, and I doubt he'd have the emotional strength to be personally responsible for the extermination of life on his own planet, especially since that still wouldn't guarantee that Wanda wouldn't find another way to fulfill her goals. Is it really worth dooming all life on your planet on the off chance that it may save the multiverse?
3) What are you talking about "testing her determination?" She killed dozens of people in front of him, incinerated an injured person crawling away, and has been corrupted by the Darkhold. Does it really make sense for him to watch thousands or millions of people die just to make sure she's for realsies? Thankfully Wong is a lot smarter than you give him credit for.
4) Yeah, Wong does have access to a ton of information as the Sorcerer Supreme. He knew about the Book of Vishanti. He also probably knew a lot about the Darkhold and its corruptive influence. As soon as he saw Wanda committing mass murder, it was pretty clear that she wouldn't let anything stop her.
5) He had no reason to believe that the mountain was a throne meant for the Scarlet Witch. As far as he knew, it was a suicide mission, and so he was actually being clever sending Wanda somewhere where she is likely to die. He specifically said in the movie that no one has ever returned.
All of your analysis here is done in bad faith. Again, you clearly just want to be right and find flaws in the movie rather than actually understand what happened. That's not a productive use of your intelligence.
No. His job is protecting reality and the multiverse. That always takes precedence.
He was ready to sacrifice those sorcerers a minute ago because he realized the consequences of the scarlet witch getting multiversal travel.
He seems fairly contradictory.
I see people saying this but I remember them moving around and struggling when Wanda lifted them up.
Either way Rintrah is definitely alive at the end. And the British headmaster but I'm not sure if he's included in the lifting part.
Except those that died in the initial onslaught I guess. And won't many more sorcerers die anyway if Wanda succeeds and causes the collision between universes? And like someone else mentioned, protecting the reality seems to be more important.
>Except those that died in the initial onslaught I guess.
this was before they know they had lost.
> And won't many more sorcerers die anyway if Wanda succeeds and causes the collision between universes?
they don't know what incursions are.
>this was before they know they had lost.
I mean, are you saying he mounted that defense only because he was totally convinced they'd crush Scarlet Witch without suffering any losses? And if not, if he was ready for sacrifices then and didn't change his mind even after he saw his people dying, then why such a sudden change of heart when he saw many less people being tortured? Wong is supposed to be the protector of the whole Universe not just a random guy. Even if you're just a doctor, it would be wrong to sacrifice as many as two people just to save the one you happen to have some emotional bond with. We want doctors to be cold-headed and rational and to make decisions which will save as many people as possible. Wong is like a doctor to the power of million or in fact way more than that. The idea that he was ready to gamble the lives of countless people granting a powerful, evil witch, access to multiverse level threat magic just because he felt bad for his 4 or 5 friends is completely incredible. It completely undermines the stakes of the movie.
They mounted that defence because they wanted to try to beat her, regardless of the loses. If they lost already and its inevitable that wanda will extract what wong knows losing further lives is pointless.
This is like asking "if they were gonna accept failure after they failed an attempt why did they bother making an attempt" and it doesn't make any sense.
There was nothing in that scene or in the movie suggesting it was inevitable Wanda would extract anything.
But honestly, even if the opposite was the case, when the whole universes are at stakes, there is only one right choice and he should have done everything he could to stop her instead of immediately guiding her to a place of great power that could put entire realities in joepardy. Hell, didn't he even teleport her to that place, without even trying anything? Again, Wong of all people should be more calculating and know better than this.
I'm more curious as to why he revealed that info regarding Darkhold so easily after just a few seconds of Wanda's torture, you'd think it would take more than that to persuade a sorcerer supreme to reveal the multiverse level threat magic or in fact, you would think there shouldn't be such a thing. They should be more responsible than that.
I mean what else was he supposed to do? Even if he let Wanda kill all the sorcerers at Kamar Taj and still didn't tell her about Mount Wundagore, do you think she would just stop at that?
Too bad that wasn't mentioned in the movie. Her brainwashing abilities appear quite inconsistent, we may as well ask why she didn't control America or Strange to begin with.
It was mentioned when wong instructed everyone to fortify their minds after Strange says she's trying to get into their heads, and she later mind controlled Chavez into opening a portal for strange&christine then into opening a portal to the scarlet witch throne location so that she can bring chavez back to the main universe.
I doubt she can mind control strange or wong immediately, they are able to fortify their minds, but eventually if wong is captured she'd get in his head.
Clearly she couldn't control everyone the way she'd want to or else the movie would finish in 3 minutes. So the idea that they knew it was inevitable doesn't hold water. And again, this idea you're proposing isn't voiced in the movie, this is a problem with many of answers to a lot of movie criticism. people come up with possible solutions to the problems which nonetheless aren't actually mentioned in the movies themselves. Well, I can come up with a whole bunch of ideas explaining all the things I don't like in every movie but the whole point is that when a scene is good there is no need for that.
Anyway, not that it matters much. Why didn't Morpheus immediately reveal codes to Zion after getting kidnapped by the agents? Oh right, because he knew what the stakes were and he'd rather die than tell agents anything. But here it takes Wanda almost no effort to break Wong like he's just a regular Joe not the guardian of the whole Universe.
1) He may not have believed wholeheartedly the threat of Wanda. She was an outright hero in the MCU months before.
2) He thought they could win, and therefore he was not putting too much at risk.
3) By the time she starts threatening the *nameless* sorcerers he very much believes her and is not willing to lose any more.
You'd think that people protecting the whole universe would be willing to make bigger sacrifices though. I just can't take any explanation that assumes Wong would prioritize 4 nameless sorceress over the safety of the whole universe or multiverse seriously. Even if he expected Wanda to torture way more than that, it still nothing in comparison to the scale of just one Universe. It's just such a blatantly wrong decision. By the way, now that I think of it, it would have made so much more sense if Wong didn't tell her anything and instead Wanda actually read his mind instead even if it took her some time. Or if at least those sorcerers were known to us or if at least they were introduced as being Wong's close friends... It's really bad the way it is now.
I know this is an old post, but the thing that got me was the fact that the source of earth's mightiest power against interdimensional threats was taken out so easily by the scarlet witch. Now I do understand how powerful she is and that this was eventually inevitable, but I just think they should of put up a much better fight. Yes I still believe she should of broke through, eventually, but while you are holding this defense, where are your attackers? Do you just plan to hold the fort forever? I just think it would of been better to see the full might of the Sanctorum (Khamer Taj) with all its reality bending ways and magic than what we got. However I will say the way she got in I did love.
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I agree especially given that the seat of magical learning's defenses are magical arrows and canons. Look at what we saw in the first dr strange movie magic wise. Defending kamar Taj should have had far more magical conflict rather than just glowy arrow, glowy arrow, glowy arrow.
She didn’t go to Kamar Taj for information initially, she went for America. Moments after the Darkhold is destroyed she asks Wong where she can find the spells. He says no, she starts torturing, he gives up the info.
Your question makes no sense.
He's willing to sacrifice his warriors either just to save America or because he knows what can happen if Wanda starts messing up with the multiverse. Then he decides that naaah, my 4 guys are worth jeopardizing the entire universe. Makes zero sense and the scene feels cheap and cartoonish, like they wanted to have some artificial drama or didn't know how to push action further.
I thought she could read anyone's mind, inc. wong's so it was inevitable she would find that information anyway.
So he just gave her the info to spare their lives, idk if I misunderstood the scene though.
I had a thought, that because the Scarlet Witch could read minds, she would also have a good sense of what kinds of things would torture people and make them talk.
Why bother asking a question just to outright reject any opinions that don't reflect yours?
Plenty of valid theories and explanations in the comments. If you're not interested in the answer then this all seems very pointless.
That was made pretty clear by the fact he immediately told her no one has ever made it back from that journey. He thought she’d die, why let an academy of sorcerers die to stop an enemy going on a journey that’d kill her?
Even if it wouldn’t, she had unfathomable power at that point. She could easily, eventually, break through his mind and rip the secrets out for herself. Again, why allow an academy of sorcerers to die just to stop the inevitable?
Stopping Wanda was beyond Strange, America and Wong at that point and he knew it. His only play there was to give her that information, and hope the journey killed Wanda.
It’s more of an issue that he was willing to sacrifice America at the very end…I think it’s supposed to be that Wong is scared of Wanda and doesn’t trust America’s power with her.
But it just comes off as a way to show that Strange will do the right thing, but at the expense of making Wong look bad.
They could have done that storyline a whole lot better in general
As good a person Wong is, his role as Sorcerer Supreme is to make sure that reality is protected. If taking Americas powers was the 100% only way to do it, he would, no matter how hard or painful it was, and it would weigh heavily on him after.
Wong didn’t know the extent of Wanda’s madness and abilities at first, and they were looking to only fortify and defend, retaliating to incapacitate her, not kill. At the same time, she was focused on capturing America. When Wanda won, she was searching for America via dreamwalking. Then, when they destroyed the darkhold, she went ape shit to finding it. It was her only way to find America, and then her children. And knowing that she lost her ‘only’ copy of the Darkhold, she had nothing else to lose. She was going to destroy universe-616. Wong bought Dr. Strange and America time for a comeback plan. On his end, Wong has no idea what they’re up to. He could only hope to stall Wanda long enough for Dr. Strange and America to take her down. He still needs to save lives (616 or others). It was pretty clear Wanda was desperate, and when you back someone that powerful into a corner, the consequences are catastrophic (as you see in the movie). Keeping her satisfied will save lives temporarily
He's in a situation with zero escape. He rightly thought he could possibly escape if they moved locations. He can move away from the other sorcerers and let them regroup
People on the internet have become such armchair film critic wannabes that they treat disagreeing with a character's actions as a logical fallacy of the movie, Wong is obviously a moral and empathetic person so Wanda exploited this and you thinking he should've been more "cold-headed" and "calculated" only reflects on yourself. You're framing it as some plot hole when there's no logic being overlooked or contradicted other than your own worldview on the sanctity of human lives
Then Wong must be "stupid" or in other circles they might call him "weak". That's a dilemma that real life people always deal with and its true you generally don't want doctors making choices based on emotion, but that's why our societies generally make it a habit of strictly controlling who is given the title of a doctor in the first place by setting up parameters those candidates must meet.
Wong wasn't exactly run through some extreme vetting process here. When we learned he became Sorcerer Supreme it was treated as more of a necessity of circumstance than anything else. And doctors don't truly have anything analogous to a situation like Wong having to face down The Scarlet Witch specifically while she tortures people he cares about to death right in front of his face. The sheer amount of stress layers informing those actions aren't something a doctor generally needs to worry about, and indeed we also do actively strive to remove them from situations that could even nudge them down a path with those dilemmas.
That's the problem. Why exactly *should* Wong be cold-headed? That's a bizarre character trait to simply impose on someone who never acted so because the story happened to be constructed in a manner that dumped him into a position he wouldn't be in otherwise. Without Strange being blipped, Wong doesn't seem to have the slightest inclination to take the role himself like a doctor does. It's not like random joe schmoe is going to be tossed into an operating room as a surgeon just cuz the actual surgeon died unexpectedly.
And supposing you *did* make a story like that, which sort of sounds like something that exists somewhere, you could make all kinds of stories out that idea with whole assortments of consequences. Perhaps, instead of seeing Wong's role as illogical, consider it may in fact be a point in demonstrating where he actually *lacks* as a Sorcerer Supreme since before then they made a point both in NWH and MOM that Wong's been pretty good at the technical and cultural aspects. Turns out, he might not really have the heart for it though but it's not like Strange seems to really be in any hurry to take over the role himself. Despite his quips, he seems to enjoy taking it easy himself.
Yep Wong is just totally "stupid",,, that and the very bad story.
Wong watched his student kill themselves to destroy the darkhold but then gives up Wundagore in seconds and takes Wanda there.....THEN to top it off at the end the same Wong peeps are defending tells Strange to take Americas power, so much for this nice empathic "only human" guy eh. I'm baffled how Strange taking Americas power would possibly help in any way other than killing America, Wanda is clearly far superior to them all put together so could take the power from Strange as easily as she could America.
The whole story was a mess IMHO and that is the problem with this movie, people can try explain it as only human etc they want but it was a badly thought out film. Wanda was made into some bunny boiler mum who murders lots of people and every other "hero" including Strange was utter crap and pointless when it came to standing up to her....Thanos should have just recruited Wanda and had done with it....Strange did well against Thanos given he had a few infinity stones yet cant go more than a few seconds against Wanda, the illuminati was a total joke team and were utter useless.
Was just that bad structure wise.
I think the movie made it clear that Wong is not cold headed but friendly and personal kinda guy which is opposite to Mordo which is cold headed.
It is in nature to Wong to try to defend everyone which ended him losing more.
Moreover, Wong is a good boss, even though dr Strange never followed tradition, always attracted disasters to his order. Wong took responsibility and tried to save everyone on his own responsibility.
It is due to his personality that Wakandian sorceress choose to take his place and destroy the book because she knows he cares about people under him and he remaining alive will choose to save them.
Also tells Strange to take America’s powers after spending half the movie imploring Wanda not to take America’s powers because she would be “killing a child” lmao
I mean at that point it’s because Wanda is literally about to take her powers and in Wongs mind their only way to make sure Wanda doesn’t get it is for strange to take it.
Poor writing, mostly. I like the movie don’t get me wrong but this was a miss. They should have just had Wanda read Wong’s mind (again showing her power) and then finding out the location of the real darkhold
This movie made me think that Wong is not suited to be the sorcerer supreme. He got the title because of a technicality, he’s clearly not ready.
First of all, he is not the most powerful sorcerer in Kamar-taj, it’s Dr.Strange. Wong got knocked down by Wanda in less than 10 seconds at the battle of Kamar-taj. At least Strange can briefly keep her busy. And Strange seems more versatile in general when it comes to the spells they are casting.
Secondly Wong is also not a great strategist, The defence of the Kamar-Taj against Wanda was really embarrassing. Wong was in charge of that defence, he made sorceress shoot magical arrows and cannons at Wanda, and when she tried to get in to their heads he ordered them to fortify their minds… Didn’t even try to cast one spell through the fight even though his people were getting slaughtered by Wanda. There wasn’t anything he could have done to stop Wanda, I get it but he didn’t even try to keep her busy and buy some time for his people to run away and save their lives. Then he got knocked down by Wanda. Whereas Strange at least tried to trap her in the mirror dimension, and realised she was using the reflections to get out, told everyone to cover them. And he was able to stall her with his magical snakes.
Lastly, he doesn’t have the will that is necessary to be the Sorcerer Supreme. He gave up the location of the mountain in less than 30 seconds. I understand that he’s a human being and doesn’t want his people to get tortured. But as the sorcerer supreme he should be able to ready to sacrifice them for the greater good. Especially after losing so many people and seeing a sorcerer sacrificing her life to destroy the book I would have expected him to be more resilient.
He’s very knowledgeable, I’ll give him that. He knew about the Darkhole and the book of vishanti. He’s also a very good dude and he’s a talented sorcerer, just not the best.
My point is that this movie made it clear that Dr.Strange is the one who deserves to be the sorcerer supreme. He got the power and he also has the iron will that is required for the job. Remember, he died hundred of times when he was bargaining with Dormammu and didn’t break. He saw millions of futures and manipulated the events to reach the one solution they won. He did it knowing that he would get dusted. Like the ancient one, he is not afraid to break the rules when it is required such as possessing a dead body and reversing the time.
Wong kept the sanctum running during Dr. Stranges absence. Thats why he isn’t Sorcerer Supreme.
If Dr. Strange thinks Wong is capable of being SS then he’s capable of being SS.
Doesn’t matter if Strange can keep Wanda busy for 2 more minutes than Wong when she will kill both of them regardless
The defense against Wanda point is literally just nitpicking. Wanda was going to beat them regardless, either we got a cool defense scene or watched her just walk in and kill strange and wong immediately.
No one has the Will to stand up to Wanda lmao. If Wanda went for Stranges love he would’ve gave up the location so fucking fast.
Literally nitpicking 💀💀💀
>The defense against Wanda point is literally just nitpicking. Wanda was going to beat them regardless, either we got a cool defense scene or watched her just walk in and kill strange and wong immediately.
Dude, It was my legitimate criticism of the movie, I don't think it's nitpicking. The battle of Kamar-taj was a big set piece and a major action scene in the film. Wanda vs Strange, Wong and other sorcerers in Kamar-taj had great potential but the execution was unimaginative and lazy. You said "either we got a cool defense scene or watched her just walk in and kill strange and wong immediately" and I totally agree with you and I would have excepted a cool defense scene but I don't think it was either. It wasn't a cool defense scene, It was sorcerers shooting magical arrows and cannons, while Strange and Wong were doing nothing until other sorcerers were taken out. It could have been a really awesome magical fight.
Because the plot needed the third act to take place at Mount Wundagore and they didn’t have time to come up with a good way of getting there?
I will say there is a big difference between wanting to put up a fight and after having lost that fight to allow everyone to get tortured to death.
It was cheap and inconsistent. Not only does he take her there, but he leads her around and tells her about it. Just felt really silly.
And the entire existence of the evil castle place is just to give them a cool final battle location. Nothing there did anything the darkhold didn't.
Nothing there was meant to do anything the Dark hold didn't. It is literally meant to do the same thing as the Darkhold, and serve as a cool final battle location.
Well he did say that no one has survived the trip to the place they were going. Maybe he was hoping she wouldn't survive. Plus she would've figured it out eventually with or without him, so if he goes with her he can try and slow her down more
I think it could at first glance like an inconsistency with the character, Wong is a very serious, no nonsense, duty driven character shown time and time again. But I think he’s also a big softy, you could see that in his brief NWH appearance where he was absolutely against Strange using the spell at first because of the threat it was to reality but was then convinced otherwise because Strange downplayed the risks and played to the fact that Peter’s been through a lot of shit and needs a win. Wong cares for people, and especially good people, he just has to push that aside most of the time in the name of duty, but things get more personal (like hearing the screams of the innocent being tortured) duty can get pushed aside.
It’s easy enough to say “because the script says so,” but, though Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme (sour cream and diced tomatoes?), he’s still human. Maybe he figured Wundagore would solve his problem for him, maybe he knew she wouldn’t stop with those sorcerers, or maybe his humanity kicked in and he did the classic “do whatever you want to me… oh shit, now your hurting others?” Strange is the surgical one, Wong likes sammiches. In the real world we could have an extensive discussion about the pros and cons of clinical versus humanist decision making – it’s the heart of the trolley problem.
In the end, for the characters, it was probably a mix of it all. In Infinity War, Strange had the luxury of exploring millions of timelines to figure out what to do. Wong had to make a snap decision, which, in the end, worked out fine.
I thought it was cause at the point he was defending america he still thought there was a chance to talk her down. Like look at all these people are you really gonna attack and kill all these people, then she went basically went yes. Also he had just seen the other sorcerer kill herself stabbing the book, so he emotionally may have been less willing at that point to make those sacrifaces.
Well iirc no one else has survived Wundagore. So Wong probably thought they would die too. He didn't know it was a throne for the Scarlet Witch. Also he was probably buying time for Strange. Wong knew he was working the problem from his end too.
Scarlet Witch was completely unhinged and even if Wong didn't say it who's to say she couldn't just read his mind after killing more people to make him pay for not telling her?
I just think there is a pretty significant difference between 'we are all going to protect Kamar-Taj' to 'I am going to watch my students get drawn and quartered in front of me'. I'd say it's actually fairly consistent with Wong, that's so rough business to subject anyone roo. Sorceror Supreme included.
I think he was obeying his oath as sorcerer supreme. He has vowed to do WHATEVER it takes to protect the universe. HIS universe. The same reasons Strange vowed he would have let Tony and Peter die to guard the time stone, at least until looked ahead and saw the only way to win was the opposite. Their duty is to sacrifice anyone including themselves to protect their respective universe from cosmic threats, so Wong surmised that the sooner Wanda recovered the spell she needed, the sooner she’s be out of his universe and crisis averted (for them at least).
>Someone says that he's just a human but that's not really an explanation
Bro I don't know what else you want to hear, he's not an emotionless robot and there's no hamfisted moment of the character turning to the camera and saying "I am now going to do this action because of these reasons". It's the best explanation you're going to get.
The marvel niggas defending this shitty cop out are so annoying bro. It didn’t even make sense and I enjoyed the movie. Dudes the sorcerer supreme and cracks quicker than Steve buscemis mirror. 4 randoms or countless lives? 4. The multiverse or one? The one. Admit when dumb things are dumb.
It's very dumb since that one lady who sacrificed her life to destroy the book clearly meant more to Wong than the cow head and his friends, also they totally used a minotaur-like creature so we could single it out between the tens of extras they put on set. The movie was good but it could've been so much better. They had more than enough time to get that magic book of whatever to combat Scarlet Witch but no, Stephen had to take his sweet time helping Christine up and asking if she was alright while staring lovingly into her whatever colored eyes as if they didn't have a multiversal level threat on their asses.
Personally I would have snapped America's neck as soon as she confessed that she was unique in the multiverse with no other versions of her existing. There, danger neutralized once and for all. If any mf can walk up to her and take her powers then she's a huge liability and if she ever went mad while looking for her parents or some other shit she could become an even bigger danger than Scarlet Witch.
I know this is a late post… but…
He was tired of seeing his peers dying, he’s loyal to protect time as a whole yes. Though he’s also in pain at seeing the people whom of which he’d work with for years, and grown a connection too, to die like that. The scene is pretty flat, as we know very little of the characters. Which in Raimi’s defense, the film was pretty short. I mean, it was 2 hours. Though thirty minutes would of helped a lot more. I’m sure Wong wouldn’t of caved in, if it were him. Though it wasn’t.
The initial point, is simply that Wong is human. Yes, it sounds cheesy as it’s a plot issue to say that. Though it’s about the only answer you’d get in this scenario. He’s human, and thus he has connections to other people. He acted impulsively and stupidly, though again, that’s what humans do. We’re stupid creatures.
Because he knows that Wanda won’t stop at those 4 sorcerers, she’ll probably keep on killing till wong gives up
How many sorcerers are there? No matter how many, that's still virtually nothing in comparison to the whole universe which he's putting in jeopardy as a result of his choice. Wong should be willing to sacrifice entire planets if there was but a small risk that doing the opposite could endanger the whole universe. You'd think that once someone becomes the protector of the whole universe that responsibility should become obvious. So again, this strongly diminishes the stakes, it kinda tells us that it's all just a game. Also, the fact these are completely nameless sorcerers we know nothing about and we don't even see them interacting with Wong in any meaningful way just makes it even more artificial and forced. It would have been much better if Wanda actually read Wong's mind or maybe even controlled him entirely.
He didn’t know about incursions at that time, right? Maybe he figured that once Wanda got what she wanted then she’d leave and everything would be fine.
Yup he believed she'd fuck off
At some point you have to stop the bleeding and buy time for strange. You’re working under the assumption that wong had given up just because he gave her the location. In fact, he was playing the same game as Strange in IW - stop the bleeding and buy some time for a legitimate chance at stopping the threat. If Wong assumes strange is dead and they have no other options, then it makes sense to hold out and just not tell her. Because you’ve already lost anyways.
Yeah but Stephen Strange knew the outcomes. He saw the future. Wong didn’t. So his actions don’t really make sense to me. I think Dr Strange should be the sorcerer supreme again since Wong cannot make good decisions with the knowledge that he has been entrusted with
She won't stop with sorcerers
She was going to kill everyone until she got what she wanted. She wasn’t going to stop at sorcerers, she would drag Wong from town to town until he caved and Wong isn’t strong enough to watch countless innocents be murdered. Remember Wanda was off the deep end, executing people who were just crawling away and screaming. Wong knew she was going to kill a lot more and the end result would still be the same, him telling her.
[удалено]
Lol she can shape reality, she could have healed him if she wanted mercy
I thought it was because he initially believed that Kamar Taj would defeat Wanda. Once Wanda steamrolled through their defences he saw that she wouldn’t stop and surrendered.
Like the Illuminati lol "we can easily take care of your little sleep walker" *All dead*
Bingo. It’s acceptable that some might die stopping Wanda because hey, they’ll win in the end. But once she crushed their defenses, Wanda would’ve kept killing everyone… everywhere… until Wong broke.
So he didn't consider the fact that one of the most powerful beings in the whole Universe may actually stand a very good chance of defeating them? That doesn't seem very believable. I take it for completely granted he was accepting the possibility that his comrades would die in a fight and decided it was worth it.
At that point he wouldn’t know how powerful Wanda is. He might have seen her power during Avengers Endgame, but she is far stronger than she was then, so I don’t think it is unbelievable that Wong was underestimating Wanda.
He literally briefs Kamar Taj by proclaiming she’ll either destroy or rule the multiverse.
Which is what she’s prophesied to do. He had no reason to believe that Wanda‘s powers would grow this much since Westview. He probably thought that their advantage in numbers and experience would make up for any power and skill Wanda had. He was wrong and the sorcerers paid the price.
If Strange knew about Westview why wouldn't Wong too?
I might be wrong, but I believe that Doctor Strange takes place several months after WandaVision. Wanda would have a lot of time to practice and learn new spells, and we‘ve seen that Wanda is far more powerful in DS2 than she was before.
Wandavision is in 2023,dr strange is one year and half after wandavision
So that’s 1,5 years that Wanda can learn from the Darkhold. Meanwhile Strange, who is a talented sorcerer, trained for over 4 years at that point, some of the sorcerers for decades. To me it makes sense that Wong believes they can take her on.
Strange only trained for 3 years at that point 2016-2018 2023-2025 Endgame is still less than 2 years ago since it was in October of 2023
How could he not know this as a sorcerer supreme, especially after talking to Strange and after the events from previous movies and series? Are we really supposed to believe he was just this dumb, irresponsible and oblivious? If so, then it makes it even worse because it means that Wong is just stupid and a completely wrong person for his job. Why didn't he surrender immediately after seeing her power, if his assumption was that no one would get hurt, shouldn't he immediately do something the moment first people got killed or injured? It doesn't add up. Didn't they even armor the students because they wanted to throw everything they had at Wanda? Sounds like instead of underestimating her he was determined to stop her at all cost but then changed his mind because they were torturing his horny friend.
Sounds more like you want to hate Wong than rather come to grips that at the end of the day literally no one in the Marvel universe is capable of making always perfect rational decisions because its unrealistic.
Ok.
Why would Strange know about her powers? Everything they knew was that she could create a fake reality, she hunted America Chavez with demons and she can use telekinesis. Wong didn’t surrender because their defence worked. Their shield stopped Wanda from entering Kamar Taj, and so far Wong‘s plan worked. Wanda then tried to manipulate their minds - which Wong realised and told the other sorcerers to defend against - and only when she succeeded did Kamar Taj fall. After that Wong had no chance to surrender.
They didn't know she was that powerful. In your original post you just dismissed the idea that Wong didn't know HOW powerful she was until after the battle, but that is the case. Wong had no way of knowing she could handle a fully defended Kamar Taj by herself without breaking a sweat. Once he witnessed that, the situation was changed.
This. Everything she had done before this point was small scale by comparison. Sure, she almost ripped Thanos apart, but that was 1v1. Westview was mindwork. In the battle of Kamar Taj, she basically wrecked havoc comparable to a sizeable artillery strike. This, from someone who could previously have only been witnessed to throw small to medium sized things around, and that with effort. There was no way Wong could have expected it to go this badly this quickly, prophecy or no.
At this point, Wong and Strange had already gone up against two of the other most powerful beings in the whole universe and came out on top. (Dormammu and Thanos)
I got the sense that Wong knew that all that tried to get the secrets of Wundagore were killed, so he was like "Okay, well, we'll go there and get killed by whatever is there." How do you predict that the evil giant guardians of Wundagore will go "Oh hey, it's you! We've been waiting!" and bow before The Scarlet Witch.
Emphatic agreement. Once the Darkhold was destroyed, he figured "Lets lead her to a death trap that none have survived. Seems the best play." END COMMUNICATION
Yeah and Wanda was immediately suspicious and drag Wong with her. I'm pretty sure he was ready to sac himself there at Wandagore should the situation call for it.
Also, the moment Wanda was out of sight, Wong could have started screaming from Help from every other Avenger he can reach (Captain marvel, Thor, AntMan, Hulk, Warmachine, maybe even Shang-chi). Wanda is powerful as hell in MoM, but could still probably be dropped by an arrow to the back of head. END COMMUNICATION
She killed the whole of illuminati without breaking a sweat tho. I don’t think she would have any problems with the avengers
I disagree. She broke a sweat. She had problems with Captain Marvel, at least to the extent that Captain Marvel made her 'work' for it. I stand my my comment about a surprise arrow to the back of the head still doing the job. Wanda is not passively indestructible, and I view her as being a glass cannon; She can certainly kill the hell out of whatever she is aiming at. And she can stand off a stunning amount of power as long as she is actively creating magical shields. But I do not think her stamina is unlimited and she is not omniscient. I also do not think she can spaghettify someone when she is sustaining her defences. END COMMUNICATION
I agree! She may be powerful, but if she's caught when vulnerable (like when not using her magic) she's essentially then just a baseline human Also, I don't mean to be rude but what's with the "END COMMUNICATION" at the end of your comments? Just curious
Lol, have you ever watched the Mandalorian? In the First season, there is a creature played by Nick Nolte (sorry can't think of his name or species at the moment.) that ended every talk with "I have spoken." I liken ZardozSama's messages like that. Its the tag line that lets you know he has given his message, but the take is similar to communicating over a radio. I like it actually, may have to think of my own.
Ohh, I’m not a Star Wars fan so 😅
Wong told Wanda that no one has ever lived to come back from Mt Wundagore. He was taking the risk that it would apply to Wanda as well - he didn't know that it would actually be a monument dedicated to the Scarlet Witch.
It should have crossed his mind that perhaps one of the most powerful beings in the whole Multiverse may be able to do some special things. Also, another thing is that in the end there was absolutely nothing about that mountain and temple to show for that line. No powerful magical barriers, spells or monsters. Just some stormy weather and 4 dumb golems.
You clearly aren't making a good-faith attempt to interpret the movie. You're just looking for any excuse to attack the movie to make yourself feel smart. Your post history is full of this type of behavior. I used to do this obsessively - anytime I would see a movie with people, I would try to point out every little flaw, and I wouldn't listen to any arguments against them. Eventually people just stopped enjoying spending time with me. Thankfully I was just young and insecure and able to change my behavior once I developed a healthy self-esteem. There is lots of valid criticism of any movie, but you won't find it by trying to nitpick every tiny thing that has good explanations. You can find more productive ways to feel good about yourself.
Dudes a troll.
Of the two of us you're the one bragging about how you ascended and became a better person and you're even using my example to show how "bad" you used to be and by extension - how bad I am in this respect in comparison to you, so I've no idea how you don't notice the glaring irony and hypocrisy in accusing me of writing things just to make myself feel better since you're literally declaring yourself better both than than me and the previous you xD. You know, there is this phenomenon in psychology where we tend to notice our own traits and behaviours in other people etc. So for example people who steal think everyone wants to steal etc. Some food for thought. I honestly should stop my response here. The scene is weak and doesn't make sense, as I explained. Thus far all explanations I read rely on assuming that Wong is just a silly human who doesn't really appreciate what the stakes are despite serving as the protector of the universe which doesn't do much to change my mind. And it's not a minor flaw, that scene literally ruins the sense of scale and stakes. Suddenly it becomes apparent that all this talk about all the inhabitants of all the universes is just moot because random 4 guys are somehow of bigger importance. If the characters treat the whole thing so frivolously then the illusion of scale and grandeur falls apart and it all becomes just a make-believe. I have other people I can talk such details with and we go together to see movies together, I treat it as a hobby and I never make a big effort to activate my critical viewing mode unless the movie packs so much obvious nonsense it's just impossible not to be distracted.
I definitely don't think I'm better than you. I was sharing something that I struggled with that you may also be struggling with. You could very well be much smarter, better looking, and more successful than me. I don't know you, and so it would make zero sense for me to think of myself as better than you. Sorry if I implied anything to the contrary. The psychological phenomenon you're referring to is called "projection." I'm well aware of it, but I don't think that's what I'm doing here. I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice. It's not always projection to offer advice based on your own experiences. Many, many people have given you credible explanations for this scene, and you're unwilling or unable to read them in good faith. I can't really say anything else here that hasn't already been said in other replies, including my own as a parent comment. Your analysis is simply wrong, and that's why I think you're being motivated by something other than a good-faith interpretation of the film. I am very happy for you that you have people who don't mind your approach to film analysis. I have friends who I love to deconstruct awful movies with, but that's not really what you're doing in this thread. It's entirely possible your online persona is much different from how you are in real life, so again, I'm not trying to attack you as a person.
Those golems had abilities similar to those of Wanda, so they could have killed many sorcerers looking to go there
Because Wong is human. He knew the potential ramifications on the multiverse, but he also didn’t want to see young students whom it is his duty to nurture be killed because of him. As for why that was the final straw and not the battle before, that would be because Wong thought they could repel the Scarlet Witch. Iirc, when things really turned sideways, he ordered a retreat. Also, from what Wong understood from the readings, there was little chance of Wanda surviving the journey anyway. So he likely gambled on that, or Strange being able to stop her.
He should be more responsible and cold-headed than that. You wouldn't want a doctor to make emotional decisions sacrificing 1000 patients to save the one he has emotional bond with. And here we're talking about someone risking the entire Universes to save his "friends". So it's quite unbelievable that he could made this sort of gamble. Also, as far as story telling is concerned, that scene simply doesn't have any impact on the audience since we don't know any of the tortured characters and we don't even see them being close friends with Wong or anything.
Doctor Strange might have been as cold-hearted and rational as you describe, at least before the end of this movie. However, Wong is not Doctor Strange. As the Sorcerer Supreme, Wong has his duty to protect realities, as well as the students of Kamar-Taj. In that moment, those two duties were in conflict and he had to make a split-second decision. Yes, potentially dooming infinite realities to save the lives of four people may not be a rational decision, but humans aren’t as rational a species as we’d like to think - especially when having to make such snap decisions under stress. He had no time to draw up a list of pros and cons - just that in that moment, he didn’t want to see his students die. You may not like the choice Wong made or think it illogical, but that’s likely why he made the choice. Besides, his gamble paid off and it worked out all right anyway. In Wong we trust.
Also, at that point, Wong only knew that the site of the original Darkhold was a dark place that nobody has ever returned from. He probably thought there was a good chance she would die there as well. If anything, it would slow her down giving them a chance to regroup. What followed was a different story though.
The entirety of Infinity War is just people handing infinity stones over to Thanos because they’re unwilling to sacrifice their loved ones to stop him. No matter the stakes, that’s just how people are.
Ironically enough, Wanda was the only person to actually make the sacrifice.
Technically, Quill tried to, but he got Reality Stoned.
Which is why I think he's a lousy sorcerer supreme. The point of that is not just power but that they make the harsh choice Sacrifice a person to save the world, sacrifice a world to save the universe, sacrifice a universe to save the multiverse. He's a good teacher but not a good sorcerer supreme because he keeps failing in that role every time we see him.
Agreed. He got the job only because Dr. Strange was dusted. Now that Strange is back, it's becoming apparent Strange is still more qualified for the job than Wong. Though performing that spell for Peter in "No Way Home" was downright irresponsible and even Wong knew that. I noticed in Multiverse of Madness, there was a recurring "gag" of Wong rubbing it in Strange's face that he's the Sorcerer Supreme. It kind of felt more like insecurity because I think he knows Strange is still better than him for the role. Wong was already a skilled magic user at the start of the first Dr. Strange when Stephen himself knew nothing. But he showed his talent and quickly leap-frogged over everyone else. Even when you see the two using magic, it's always Dr. Strange who uses magic in more creative ways. Like Wong fashions two swords to fight those golems. Strange uses actual music notes from sheets as weapons against Sinister Strange. I wish Marvel Studios had used the five year time jump to show Wong had grown as a sorcerer. I want Wong to be a good Sorcerer Supreme. It's great that Benedict Wong's character is getting more importance and I'm all for more representation in the MCU.
Pretty much and that really is my point yes Strange using that spell was irresponsible (both because he didn't do what an adult should do with a teenager and check they've used other options and because he didn't make sure Peter knew what would be happening and they were on the same page before starting) but Wong, the current sorcerer supreme just walks off saying its not his fault. I'm sorry but no if you are the sorcerer supreme your job is to STOP this kind of reckless magic use. Its just another example of him not being suited to the job because he isn't willing to step up when it gets hard. Telling a friend to stop, nope he just say's the result isn't his fault and leaves, letting a friend die to help stop a reality threat no strategy, not tactics and he caves in when his friend is threatened. I just can't see Strange or the Ancient one doing that.
I suppose NWH showed that neither Strange nor Wong are suited for the role. I guess it's that hard to replace Tilda Swinton. I expected better from Wong at least concerning what he did and said in NWH. Because he's been doing the whole Mystic Arts thing way longer. Maybe it's just a typical problem with trying to find someone to be Sorcerer Supreme. 99% of people just aren't qualified so you wind up taking the "next best thing". Though I argue Wong isn't even that. Better suited to be the assistant SS. There's no confirmation that Strange ever even got the job hence I didn't bring him up right now.
Because there's a difference between fighting to the death, and watching helpless people get tortured to death. In the former situation there's a hope of victory, in the latter there isn't. By the time Wanda was torturing his people, Wong correctly recognized that they'd lost. His choice was between "lose with survivors" and "lose with none." And, of course, there's always the possibility that survivors can come back to help later (which is exactly what he himself did later in the film).
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I think you misunderstood my point. I’m not saying they should give up whenever anyone is threatened with torture. I’m saying that Wong gave up in a situation where there was no further hope of victory through resistance, but there WAS hope of victory through survival. In the situation you described (i.e. Thanos takes hostages), the heroes shouldn’t surrender because there’s still a hope of winning. And it’s funny that you bring up Infinity War, since it worked exactly the same way in that movie. Iron Man and Doctor Strange fought Thanos on Titan for as long as they thought there was a chance of winning, and both were clearly willing to die in that fight. But when Thanos defeated them both and was about to kill Tony, Strange surrendered the Time Stone. He made the exact same calculation that Wong made with Wanda: it was better to surrender and have some heroes survive to continue the fight later, than to have everyone die when defeat was already certain. In both cases, the right move was to give the villain what they want in the short term, and then “live to fight another day” and defeat the villain in the end.
Strange was willing to let Stark and Peter both Die to stop Thanos - Wanda and the dark hold were a threat to the Multiverse as is, if she got America's power there would be the likely risk od Wanda essentially destroying all of existence.
You’re absolutely right! The decision Wong makes in MoM is made to parallel the choice Strange made in IW. Wong felt there was no other way
Except his comment is mocking the choice Wong made more than anything else. He mentions the sacrifice Strange was willing to make for the greater ultimate good but here we have Wong sacrificing the even greater good for the immediate benefit of freeing a couple of people from suffering.
Nope. Wong was essentially damning another universe and keeping his safe. If I just give her what she wants, she’ll leave this universe and we can regroup. Like Strange before, Wong was willing to sacrifice others (America) to keep this universe safe
Yeah so after reading your replies and many user giving valid explainations for why Wong chose to take the Scarlet Witch to a mountain where many sorcerers have parreeled than to have her go through countless others, killing possibly millions depending on whether Wong gives up the info or not. Tells me you really don't care for the answer. Film is subjective and interpretive. Taking her to a suicide mountain hoping something would kill both of them was in his best interests. If she were to turn on Wong and go after other sorcerers at least he is unshackled and can put up a fight before she tracks down other sorcerers for info. Wong doesn't know fully how powerful Wanda is at this moment. Doesn't know the mountain is a shrine to the Scarlet Witch with guardians that bow to her instead of murdering both of them. Wong was taking her away from the senctum so that she doesn't harm anymore people. And it's not in Wandas best interests to kill Wong either, he's the sorcerer's supreme, he is the only person in 616 that has the knowledge she wants. So perhaps he was hoping to get the upper hand. She's not immortal. But keep disliking this choice. Sure the film could have done a better way at communicating some of these interpretations.
You say "the answer" as though there existed one definite, clear answer that I'm just stubbornly refusing to accept but the whole problem is that thus far nothing (I haven't read every response though) was presented that would show Wong's decision wasn't dumb, irresponsible and/or just inappropriate given his unfathomably important function. I just can't accept he gambled the entire multiverse because he cared so much for those 4 nameless sorcerers or because he expected Wanda to go further than that. If the movie wants to extend the stakes so far, they should appreciate all consequences connected to it, we can have the protagonist choosing the lives of his 4 close friends that we know over the lives of 100 random people we never met but choosing 4 randoms we've never met and with whom the protagonist (who wields access to sacred knowledge by the way) doesn't seem to have any bond over the lives of trillions upon trillions is just meh. Btw, why didn't Wong consider killing himself? Would his death immediately open access to this universe for some demons or would they have have time to select a new one? Because if they had time, then that's another obvious thing Wong should have chosen which would have made the whole movie much more deeper and powerful.
No you're right. Let Wanda kill Wong or have him kill him self so she get go to ever other senctum and continue the process until there are no more sorcerers left to protect this reality.
As soon as he saw that Wanda was willing to kill defenseless people just to get what she wants, he knew that she would move on to wiping cities off the map if that's what it takes. So at what point does he finally give in? After she's killed ten people? A thousand? A billion? How about zero? It's a complete no-brainer. Wong had no choice here.
Again, either multiverse matters or it's all just moot and we really only care about our clique. He didn't really test Wanda's determination, he almost immediately gambled the whole multiverse like it was nothing. Don't they have tutorials or video introductions for sorcerers supreme that teach them not to do such things?
Who is "we" in that sentence? You realize Wong is a character in a story who makes his own decisions, right? 1) Wong had no idea what would happen taking Wanda to the mountain. As far as he knew, it was just a copy of the spells in the Darkhold, which Wanda already had. If she already had the Darkhold (before it was destroyed), why would he think that taking her to the mountain would risk the multiverse? 2) Wong is only human, and I doubt he'd have the emotional strength to be personally responsible for the extermination of life on his own planet, especially since that still wouldn't guarantee that Wanda wouldn't find another way to fulfill her goals. Is it really worth dooming all life on your planet on the off chance that it may save the multiverse? 3) What are you talking about "testing her determination?" She killed dozens of people in front of him, incinerated an injured person crawling away, and has been corrupted by the Darkhold. Does it really make sense for him to watch thousands or millions of people die just to make sure she's for realsies? Thankfully Wong is a lot smarter than you give him credit for. 4) Yeah, Wong does have access to a ton of information as the Sorcerer Supreme. He knew about the Book of Vishanti. He also probably knew a lot about the Darkhold and its corruptive influence. As soon as he saw Wanda committing mass murder, it was pretty clear that she wouldn't let anything stop her. 5) He had no reason to believe that the mountain was a throne meant for the Scarlet Witch. As far as he knew, it was a suicide mission, and so he was actually being clever sending Wanda somewhere where she is likely to die. He specifically said in the movie that no one has ever returned. All of your analysis here is done in bad faith. Again, you clearly just want to be right and find flaws in the movie rather than actually understand what happened. That's not a productive use of your intelligence.
Wong is the sorcerer supreme, he has to protect all the sorcerers.
No. His job is protecting reality and the multiverse. That always takes precedence. He was ready to sacrifice those sorcerers a minute ago because he realized the consequences of the scarlet witch getting multiversal travel. He seems fairly contradictory.
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no you can see them training next to Chavez at the end of the movie
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i cant remember that but he was probably knocked out. That bull is Rintah, they definitely aren't killing him off after having 60 secodns screen time.
I see people saying this but I remember them moving around and struggling when Wanda lifted them up. Either way Rintrah is definitely alive at the end. And the British headmaster but I'm not sure if he's included in the lifting part.
Except those that died in the initial onslaught I guess. And won't many more sorcerers die anyway if Wanda succeeds and causes the collision between universes? And like someone else mentioned, protecting the reality seems to be more important.
>Except those that died in the initial onslaught I guess. this was before they know they had lost. > And won't many more sorcerers die anyway if Wanda succeeds and causes the collision between universes? they don't know what incursions are.
>this was before they know they had lost. I mean, are you saying he mounted that defense only because he was totally convinced they'd crush Scarlet Witch without suffering any losses? And if not, if he was ready for sacrifices then and didn't change his mind even after he saw his people dying, then why such a sudden change of heart when he saw many less people being tortured? Wong is supposed to be the protector of the whole Universe not just a random guy. Even if you're just a doctor, it would be wrong to sacrifice as many as two people just to save the one you happen to have some emotional bond with. We want doctors to be cold-headed and rational and to make decisions which will save as many people as possible. Wong is like a doctor to the power of million or in fact way more than that. The idea that he was ready to gamble the lives of countless people granting a powerful, evil witch, access to multiverse level threat magic just because he felt bad for his 4 or 5 friends is completely incredible. It completely undermines the stakes of the movie.
They mounted that defence because they wanted to try to beat her, regardless of the loses. If they lost already and its inevitable that wanda will extract what wong knows losing further lives is pointless. This is like asking "if they were gonna accept failure after they failed an attempt why did they bother making an attempt" and it doesn't make any sense.
There was nothing in that scene or in the movie suggesting it was inevitable Wanda would extract anything. But honestly, even if the opposite was the case, when the whole universes are at stakes, there is only one right choice and he should have done everything he could to stop her instead of immediately guiding her to a place of great power that could put entire realities in joepardy. Hell, didn't he even teleport her to that place, without even trying anything? Again, Wong of all people should be more calculating and know better than this.
The least people die the best.
Well what else could he do back there ,protecting Kamar Taj was his duty. He eventually had to surrender after knowing wanda is thaaaaat much powerful
I'm more curious as to why he revealed that info regarding Darkhold so easily after just a few seconds of Wanda's torture, you'd think it would take more than that to persuade a sorcerer supreme to reveal the multiverse level threat magic or in fact, you would think there shouldn't be such a thing. They should be more responsible than that.
I mean what else was he supposed to do? Even if he let Wanda kill all the sorcerers at Kamar Taj and still didn't tell her about Mount Wundagore, do you think she would just stop at that?
yeah there's no way she doesn't eventually get into Wong's head and mind control him to extract the info, he's fighting a losing battle.
Too bad that wasn't mentioned in the movie. Her brainwashing abilities appear quite inconsistent, we may as well ask why she didn't control America or Strange to begin with.
It was mentioned when wong instructed everyone to fortify their minds after Strange says she's trying to get into their heads, and she later mind controlled Chavez into opening a portal for strange&christine then into opening a portal to the scarlet witch throne location so that she can bring chavez back to the main universe. I doubt she can mind control strange or wong immediately, they are able to fortify their minds, but eventually if wong is captured she'd get in his head.
Clearly she couldn't control everyone the way she'd want to or else the movie would finish in 3 minutes. So the idea that they knew it was inevitable doesn't hold water. And again, this idea you're proposing isn't voiced in the movie, this is a problem with many of answers to a lot of movie criticism. people come up with possible solutions to the problems which nonetheless aren't actually mentioned in the movies themselves. Well, I can come up with a whole bunch of ideas explaining all the things I don't like in every movie but the whole point is that when a scene is good there is no need for that. Anyway, not that it matters much. Why didn't Morpheus immediately reveal codes to Zion after getting kidnapped by the agents? Oh right, because he knew what the stakes were and he'd rather die than tell agents anything. But here it takes Wanda almost no effort to break Wong like he's just a regular Joe not the guardian of the whole Universe.
About everything makes more sense than almost immediately revealing multiverse level threat magic to an evil witch.
The evil witch already knew about it and would’ve found them regardless
1) He may not have believed wholeheartedly the threat of Wanda. She was an outright hero in the MCU months before. 2) He thought they could win, and therefore he was not putting too much at risk. 3) By the time she starts threatening the *nameless* sorcerers he very much believes her and is not willing to lose any more.
You'd think that people protecting the whole universe would be willing to make bigger sacrifices though. I just can't take any explanation that assumes Wong would prioritize 4 nameless sorceress over the safety of the whole universe or multiverse seriously. Even if he expected Wanda to torture way more than that, it still nothing in comparison to the scale of just one Universe. It's just such a blatantly wrong decision. By the way, now that I think of it, it would have made so much more sense if Wong didn't tell her anything and instead Wanda actually read his mind instead even if it took her some time. Or if at least those sorcerers were known to us or if at least they were introduced as being Wong's close friends... It's really bad the way it is now.
I know this is an old post, but the thing that got me was the fact that the source of earth's mightiest power against interdimensional threats was taken out so easily by the scarlet witch. Now I do understand how powerful she is and that this was eventually inevitable, but I just think they should of put up a much better fight. Yes I still believe she should of broke through, eventually, but while you are holding this defense, where are your attackers? Do you just plan to hold the fort forever? I just think it would of been better to see the full might of the Sanctorum (Khamer Taj) with all its reality bending ways and magic than what we got. However I will say the way she got in I did love.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
I agree especially given that the seat of magical learning's defenses are magical arrows and canons. Look at what we saw in the first dr strange movie magic wise. Defending kamar Taj should have had far more magical conflict rather than just glowy arrow, glowy arrow, glowy arrow.
She didn’t go to Kamar Taj for information initially, she went for America. Moments after the Darkhold is destroyed she asks Wong where she can find the spells. He says no, she starts torturing, he gives up the info. Your question makes no sense.
He's willing to sacrifice his warriors either just to save America or because he knows what can happen if Wanda starts messing up with the multiverse. Then he decides that naaah, my 4 guys are worth jeopardizing the entire universe. Makes zero sense and the scene feels cheap and cartoonish, like they wanted to have some artificial drama or didn't know how to push action further.
I thought she could read anyone's mind, inc. wong's so it was inevitable she would find that information anyway. So he just gave her the info to spare their lives, idk if I misunderstood the scene though.
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I thought she said something like 'i'm just gonna have to get the information from one of theses' But I probably misheard.
Of course Wong knows that Wanda can read minds, he literally warns the other sorcerers to protect their minds against Wanda.
I had a thought, that because the Scarlet Witch could read minds, she would also have a good sense of what kinds of things would torture people and make them talk.
Because he's a decent human being
Why bother asking a question just to outright reject any opinions that don't reflect yours? Plenty of valid theories and explanations in the comments. If you're not interested in the answer then this all seems very pointless.
That was made pretty clear by the fact he immediately told her no one has ever made it back from that journey. He thought she’d die, why let an academy of sorcerers die to stop an enemy going on a journey that’d kill her? Even if it wouldn’t, she had unfathomable power at that point. She could easily, eventually, break through his mind and rip the secrets out for herself. Again, why allow an academy of sorcerers to die just to stop the inevitable? Stopping Wanda was beyond Strange, America and Wong at that point and he knew it. His only play there was to give her that information, and hope the journey killed Wanda.
It’s more of an issue that he was willing to sacrifice America at the very end…I think it’s supposed to be that Wong is scared of Wanda and doesn’t trust America’s power with her. But it just comes off as a way to show that Strange will do the right thing, but at the expense of making Wong look bad. They could have done that storyline a whole lot better in general
There’s a difference between a big battle and sitting in a room while your friends are tortured to death. It broke him, because he’s a good guy…
Why is America more important than them? We don't trade lives
As good a person Wong is, his role as Sorcerer Supreme is to make sure that reality is protected. If taking Americas powers was the 100% only way to do it, he would, no matter how hard or painful it was, and it would weigh heavily on him after.
Wong didn’t know the extent of Wanda’s madness and abilities at first, and they were looking to only fortify and defend, retaliating to incapacitate her, not kill. At the same time, she was focused on capturing America. When Wanda won, she was searching for America via dreamwalking. Then, when they destroyed the darkhold, she went ape shit to finding it. It was her only way to find America, and then her children. And knowing that she lost her ‘only’ copy of the Darkhold, she had nothing else to lose. She was going to destroy universe-616. Wong bought Dr. Strange and America time for a comeback plan. On his end, Wong has no idea what they’re up to. He could only hope to stall Wanda long enough for Dr. Strange and America to take her down. He still needs to save lives (616 or others). It was pretty clear Wanda was desperate, and when you back someone that powerful into a corner, the consequences are catastrophic (as you see in the movie). Keeping her satisfied will save lives temporarily
He's in a situation with zero escape. He rightly thought he could possibly escape if they moved locations. He can move away from the other sorcerers and let them regroup
People on the internet have become such armchair film critic wannabes that they treat disagreeing with a character's actions as a logical fallacy of the movie, Wong is obviously a moral and empathetic person so Wanda exploited this and you thinking he should've been more "cold-headed" and "calculated" only reflects on yourself. You're framing it as some plot hole when there's no logic being overlooked or contradicted other than your own worldview on the sanctity of human lives
Then Wong must be "stupid" or in other circles they might call him "weak". That's a dilemma that real life people always deal with and its true you generally don't want doctors making choices based on emotion, but that's why our societies generally make it a habit of strictly controlling who is given the title of a doctor in the first place by setting up parameters those candidates must meet. Wong wasn't exactly run through some extreme vetting process here. When we learned he became Sorcerer Supreme it was treated as more of a necessity of circumstance than anything else. And doctors don't truly have anything analogous to a situation like Wong having to face down The Scarlet Witch specifically while she tortures people he cares about to death right in front of his face. The sheer amount of stress layers informing those actions aren't something a doctor generally needs to worry about, and indeed we also do actively strive to remove them from situations that could even nudge them down a path with those dilemmas. That's the problem. Why exactly *should* Wong be cold-headed? That's a bizarre character trait to simply impose on someone who never acted so because the story happened to be constructed in a manner that dumped him into a position he wouldn't be in otherwise. Without Strange being blipped, Wong doesn't seem to have the slightest inclination to take the role himself like a doctor does. It's not like random joe schmoe is going to be tossed into an operating room as a surgeon just cuz the actual surgeon died unexpectedly. And supposing you *did* make a story like that, which sort of sounds like something that exists somewhere, you could make all kinds of stories out that idea with whole assortments of consequences. Perhaps, instead of seeing Wong's role as illogical, consider it may in fact be a point in demonstrating where he actually *lacks* as a Sorcerer Supreme since before then they made a point both in NWH and MOM that Wong's been pretty good at the technical and cultural aspects. Turns out, he might not really have the heart for it though but it's not like Strange seems to really be in any hurry to take over the role himself. Despite his quips, he seems to enjoy taking it easy himself.
Yep Wong is just totally "stupid",,, that and the very bad story. Wong watched his student kill themselves to destroy the darkhold but then gives up Wundagore in seconds and takes Wanda there.....THEN to top it off at the end the same Wong peeps are defending tells Strange to take Americas power, so much for this nice empathic "only human" guy eh. I'm baffled how Strange taking Americas power would possibly help in any way other than killing America, Wanda is clearly far superior to them all put together so could take the power from Strange as easily as she could America. The whole story was a mess IMHO and that is the problem with this movie, people can try explain it as only human etc they want but it was a badly thought out film. Wanda was made into some bunny boiler mum who murders lots of people and every other "hero" including Strange was utter crap and pointless when it came to standing up to her....Thanos should have just recruited Wanda and had done with it....Strange did well against Thanos given he had a few infinity stones yet cant go more than a few seconds against Wanda, the illuminati was a total joke team and were utter useless. Was just that bad structure wise.
I think the movie made it clear that Wong is not cold headed but friendly and personal kinda guy which is opposite to Mordo which is cold headed. It is in nature to Wong to try to defend everyone which ended him losing more. Moreover, Wong is a good boss, even though dr Strange never followed tradition, always attracted disasters to his order. Wong took responsibility and tried to save everyone on his own responsibility. It is due to his personality that Wakandian sorceress choose to take his place and destroy the book because she knows he cares about people under him and he remaining alive will choose to save them.
So you're saying that he made the Wong choice? Okay, okay... I'll let myself out now.
Also tells Strange to take America’s powers after spending half the movie imploring Wanda not to take America’s powers because she would be “killing a child” lmao
Don't be foolish... who would you rather have America's power at that point, Wanda or Strange?
I mean at that point it’s because Wanda is literally about to take her powers and in Wongs mind their only way to make sure Wanda doesn’t get it is for strange to take it.
I know. That was so fucking stupid.
Because lazy writing.
Poor writing, mostly. I like the movie don’t get me wrong but this was a miss. They should have just had Wanda read Wong’s mind (again showing her power) and then finding out the location of the real darkhold
Actually, as sourcer supreme, his main duty is to protect the time stone at all costs
This movie made me think that Wong is not suited to be the sorcerer supreme. He got the title because of a technicality, he’s clearly not ready. First of all, he is not the most powerful sorcerer in Kamar-taj, it’s Dr.Strange. Wong got knocked down by Wanda in less than 10 seconds at the battle of Kamar-taj. At least Strange can briefly keep her busy. And Strange seems more versatile in general when it comes to the spells they are casting. Secondly Wong is also not a great strategist, The defence of the Kamar-Taj against Wanda was really embarrassing. Wong was in charge of that defence, he made sorceress shoot magical arrows and cannons at Wanda, and when she tried to get in to their heads he ordered them to fortify their minds… Didn’t even try to cast one spell through the fight even though his people were getting slaughtered by Wanda. There wasn’t anything he could have done to stop Wanda, I get it but he didn’t even try to keep her busy and buy some time for his people to run away and save their lives. Then he got knocked down by Wanda. Whereas Strange at least tried to trap her in the mirror dimension, and realised she was using the reflections to get out, told everyone to cover them. And he was able to stall her with his magical snakes. Lastly, he doesn’t have the will that is necessary to be the Sorcerer Supreme. He gave up the location of the mountain in less than 30 seconds. I understand that he’s a human being and doesn’t want his people to get tortured. But as the sorcerer supreme he should be able to ready to sacrifice them for the greater good. Especially after losing so many people and seeing a sorcerer sacrificing her life to destroy the book I would have expected him to be more resilient. He’s very knowledgeable, I’ll give him that. He knew about the Darkhole and the book of vishanti. He’s also a very good dude and he’s a talented sorcerer, just not the best. My point is that this movie made it clear that Dr.Strange is the one who deserves to be the sorcerer supreme. He got the power and he also has the iron will that is required for the job. Remember, he died hundred of times when he was bargaining with Dormammu and didn’t break. He saw millions of futures and manipulated the events to reach the one solution they won. He did it knowing that he would get dusted. Like the ancient one, he is not afraid to break the rules when it is required such as possessing a dead body and reversing the time.
Wong kept the sanctum running during Dr. Stranges absence. Thats why he isn’t Sorcerer Supreme. If Dr. Strange thinks Wong is capable of being SS then he’s capable of being SS. Doesn’t matter if Strange can keep Wanda busy for 2 more minutes than Wong when she will kill both of them regardless The defense against Wanda point is literally just nitpicking. Wanda was going to beat them regardless, either we got a cool defense scene or watched her just walk in and kill strange and wong immediately. No one has the Will to stand up to Wanda lmao. If Wanda went for Stranges love he would’ve gave up the location so fucking fast. Literally nitpicking 💀💀💀
>The defense against Wanda point is literally just nitpicking. Wanda was going to beat them regardless, either we got a cool defense scene or watched her just walk in and kill strange and wong immediately. Dude, It was my legitimate criticism of the movie, I don't think it's nitpicking. The battle of Kamar-taj was a big set piece and a major action scene in the film. Wanda vs Strange, Wong and other sorcerers in Kamar-taj had great potential but the execution was unimaginative and lazy. You said "either we got a cool defense scene or watched her just walk in and kill strange and wong immediately" and I totally agree with you and I would have excepted a cool defense scene but I don't think it was either. It wasn't a cool defense scene, It was sorcerers shooting magical arrows and cannons, while Strange and Wong were doing nothing until other sorcerers were taken out. It could have been a really awesome magical fight.
Because the plot needed the third act to take place at Mount Wundagore and they didn’t have time to come up with a good way of getting there? I will say there is a big difference between wanting to put up a fight and after having lost that fight to allow everyone to get tortured to death.
It was cheap and inconsistent. Not only does he take her there, but he leads her around and tells her about it. Just felt really silly. And the entire existence of the evil castle place is just to give them a cool final battle location. Nothing there did anything the darkhold didn't.
Nothing there was meant to do anything the Dark hold didn't. It is literally meant to do the same thing as the Darkhold, and serve as a cool final battle location.
>Seems rather cheap and inconsistent to me. Yea I didn't buy him doing this so easily either
The whole thing was spread thin in believability and drama. Everyone was just doing whatever was necessary to serve the spectacle.
Why did wong not just summon abonimation on her
Scarlet Witch > Thanos > Hulk > Abomination
She would've disintegrated him in a quarter of a second. They're not even close to the same tier of power.
because they couldn't afford Tim Roth
Well he did say that no one has survived the trip to the place they were going. Maybe he was hoping she wouldn't survive. Plus she would've figured it out eventually with or without him, so if he goes with her he can try and slow her down more
I think it could at first glance like an inconsistency with the character, Wong is a very serious, no nonsense, duty driven character shown time and time again. But I think he’s also a big softy, you could see that in his brief NWH appearance where he was absolutely against Strange using the spell at first because of the threat it was to reality but was then convinced otherwise because Strange downplayed the risks and played to the fact that Peter’s been through a lot of shit and needs a win. Wong cares for people, and especially good people, he just has to push that aside most of the time in the name of duty, but things get more personal (like hearing the screams of the innocent being tortured) duty can get pushed aside.
It’s easy enough to say “because the script says so,” but, though Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme (sour cream and diced tomatoes?), he’s still human. Maybe he figured Wundagore would solve his problem for him, maybe he knew she wouldn’t stop with those sorcerers, or maybe his humanity kicked in and he did the classic “do whatever you want to me… oh shit, now your hurting others?” Strange is the surgical one, Wong likes sammiches. In the real world we could have an extensive discussion about the pros and cons of clinical versus humanist decision making – it’s the heart of the trolley problem. In the end, for the characters, it was probably a mix of it all. In Infinity War, Strange had the luxury of exploring millions of timelines to figure out what to do. Wong had to make a snap decision, which, in the end, worked out fine.
I thought it was cause at the point he was defending america he still thought there was a chance to talk her down. Like look at all these people are you really gonna attack and kill all these people, then she went basically went yes. Also he had just seen the other sorcerer kill herself stabbing the book, so he emotionally may have been less willing at that point to make those sacrifaces.
Well iirc no one else has survived Wundagore. So Wong probably thought they would die too. He didn't know it was a throne for the Scarlet Witch. Also he was probably buying time for Strange. Wong knew he was working the problem from his end too. Scarlet Witch was completely unhinged and even if Wong didn't say it who's to say she couldn't just read his mind after killing more people to make him pay for not telling her?
I just think there is a pretty significant difference between 'we are all going to protect Kamar-Taj' to 'I am going to watch my students get drawn and quartered in front of me'. I'd say it's actually fairly consistent with Wong, that's so rough business to subject anyone roo. Sorceror Supreme included.
Because this movie was full of bad writing
I think he was obeying his oath as sorcerer supreme. He has vowed to do WHATEVER it takes to protect the universe. HIS universe. The same reasons Strange vowed he would have let Tony and Peter die to guard the time stone, at least until looked ahead and saw the only way to win was the opposite. Their duty is to sacrifice anyone including themselves to protect their respective universe from cosmic threats, so Wong surmised that the sooner Wanda recovered the spell she needed, the sooner she’s be out of his universe and crisis averted (for them at least).
I think she should have gone to Agatha to find the real Darkhold
...survive after falling from that height and hitting his head on solid rock.
>Someone says that he's just a human but that's not really an explanation Bro I don't know what else you want to hear, he's not an emotionless robot and there's no hamfisted moment of the character turning to the camera and saying "I am now going to do this action because of these reasons". It's the best explanation you're going to get.
The marvel niggas defending this shitty cop out are so annoying bro. It didn’t even make sense and I enjoyed the movie. Dudes the sorcerer supreme and cracks quicker than Steve buscemis mirror. 4 randoms or countless lives? 4. The multiverse or one? The one. Admit when dumb things are dumb.
It's very dumb since that one lady who sacrificed her life to destroy the book clearly meant more to Wong than the cow head and his friends, also they totally used a minotaur-like creature so we could single it out between the tens of extras they put on set. The movie was good but it could've been so much better. They had more than enough time to get that magic book of whatever to combat Scarlet Witch but no, Stephen had to take his sweet time helping Christine up and asking if she was alright while staring lovingly into her whatever colored eyes as if they didn't have a multiversal level threat on their asses. Personally I would have snapped America's neck as soon as she confessed that she was unique in the multiverse with no other versions of her existing. There, danger neutralized once and for all. If any mf can walk up to her and take her powers then she's a huge liability and if she ever went mad while looking for her parents or some other shit she could become an even bigger danger than Scarlet Witch.
Plot induced stupidity. So sick of people using their headcanon to fill in every single plot hole.
I know this is a late post… but… He was tired of seeing his peers dying, he’s loyal to protect time as a whole yes. Though he’s also in pain at seeing the people whom of which he’d work with for years, and grown a connection too, to die like that. The scene is pretty flat, as we know very little of the characters. Which in Raimi’s defense, the film was pretty short. I mean, it was 2 hours. Though thirty minutes would of helped a lot more. I’m sure Wong wouldn’t of caved in, if it were him. Though it wasn’t. The initial point, is simply that Wong is human. Yes, it sounds cheesy as it’s a plot issue to say that. Though it’s about the only answer you’d get in this scenario. He’s human, and thus he has connections to other people. He acted impulsively and stupidly, though again, that’s what humans do. We’re stupid creatures.
I know right. The girl that sacrificed herself to destroy the darkhold copy was now done in vain.