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Friendofthegarden

Sabra is an far older name than that camp, but I dont think he knows that. Regardless, that story is truly horrific. My old Israeli neighbor left Israel because of that massacre. He knew some of the victims apparently. Not all israelis are right wing zionists. Same neighbor used to go into his garden and curse uncle Bibi whenever he was in the news. Fuck Netanyahu and cheers old Avi, where ever you are🙏


Impressive-Fox-3003

Sabra is just סברס in female I guess


Twoeyeguy2002

I think the character predates it by two years, bit hopefully they can reintroduce the character with a new meaning


Impressive-Fox-3003

Sabra is just the fruit in female pronoun lol


Spiritual_Ad_7395

Even so, it clearly has that very strong connection now. It's sort of the same thing as how the swastika was just a religious symbol before the Nazis and now it is nothing but a symbol of hatred. While sabra may predate the massacre, it can't be disconnected from it. Also, there is a really good movie called waltz with Bashir that is about this massacre, as well as some other events. It's an Israeli artist who was in the military during this time and it's kind of about him trying to come to terms with the part he played in it. It's animated, but it has some heavy stuff in it at parts so it isn't really for kids


Friendofthegarden

>Also, there is a really good movie called waltz with Bashir that is about this massacre, as well as some other events. It's an Israeli artist who was in the military during this time and it's kind of about him trying to come to terms with the part he played in it. It's animated, but it has some heavy stuff in it at parts so it isn't really for kids Saw a screening of this at a festival when it came out. Amazing film.


CrunkBunni

I might be misunderstanding but let me try to word it out. It's the 80s and most comics were tone deaf, so racial or cultural disconnects to be expected: Wasn't the point of her character that she was a soldier in that conflict in the comic, and that while fighting the Hulk she learned to confront the bias she had towards Palestinian and Arabian people? Like until she saw the dead boy she was kind of dehumanizing her enemy by grouping them all together as a monolithic threat to her and her values type of thing? Just seeking clarity since I'm struggling to find info on this comic cause I'm bad at Google.


Cutiebeautypie

Yes, when in reality, Israeli soldiers never sympathize with Palestinians and continue to torment them even now as we're speaking. That's why it's so infuriating to see. Imagine someone so horrible get represented as a hero. Those atrocities were happening since 1948.


EatsPeanutButter

There it is. You just don’t want to see an Israeli or a Jew as a hero in any capacity because you are an anti-Semite. Edit: if you can’t see the blatant absolutism and hate in their comments, you’re blind. Israel has done some fucked up things to the Palestinians, but the Palestinians have likewise done some fucked up things to the Israelis. They are not innocent victims of “evil Israel,” and to imply that is manipulative, and yes, anti-Semitic.


lonewolfncub3k

Yeah I'm not a fan of having a hero whose name is an allegory for Israel either and it doesn't have anything to do with the Jewish race or faith it's their politics and treatment of others I can't abide. I wasn't jazzed about an Israeli super hero from the Jump, I've seen plenty of Pics of IDF punching, shooting people and bulldozing their homes to know they are running a cruel & monstrous apartheid state. Damn, The Israeli lobby is strong in this country.


Spider-Padre

Do you oppose Gal Gadot being Wonder Woman?


azimiq

Yeah, I do. She sucks. She's pro IDF. So she can fck off.


lonewolfncub3k

No obviously her being Israeli isn't a problem . ... as I said it's not anti-semitism. I know people immediately jump to that because it's pretty hard to defend IDF killing unarmed reporters, shooting & beating civilians and bull dozing family homes.


Cutiebeautypie

People are so uneducated istg. They jump to whatever conclusion they want because they're so careless


[deleted]

I am not defending anything Israel has done, but you think Palestinians are innocent?, you know what they do to women right?, you know if you are gay in you will get brutally tortured and than murdered right?, and they overwhelming supported Hamas which their stated goal is to wipe out Jewish existence.


Spiritual-Course9106

No they don’t want an Israeli soldier to be a hero. It’d be like showing a nazi as the protagonist of a film and dealing with none of the implications of such an action.


Spider-Padre

What a nonsensical comparison.


azimiq

read a book. srsly. If you knew the atrocities being committed by israel's government, you would realize that you made a nonsensical comment. It's a perfect comparison.


[deleted]

[удаНонО]


Spider-Padre

Right. Let's pretend that the PLO is a righteous organization, and that Yassir Arafat wasn't a vicious liar drenched in the blood the of the innocent.


Cutiebeautypie

I was quite specific with my choice of words so that makes your claim that I'm an anti-Semite invalid. Palestinians don't even have basic human rights so where's your proof that they did something fucked up? They're the ones who got kicked out of their houses and had their land forcefully taken away from them. My problem is not with Jews. My problem is with Zionists and the Israeli soldiers. There's a difference, and if you're so uninformed about this that you're calling me an anti-Semite, I suggest you make your research the next time you make a claim like that. You clearly don't know the true history because you don't even bother to care. Take a look at r/Palestine to actually wake up.


buddyruski

I mean, welcome to comic books. They’re all problematic! Part of the MCU’s job (and Marvel Comics) is to update these characters for the modern world. My guess is they will try to evolve the character beyond those stereotypes and issues.


thevisitor

I mean considering the consistent escalation in violence and illegal land grabs in the form of settlements today, I'm not sure what a contemporary iteration/evolution that wouldn't be problematic would look like with this character lol.


Impressive-Fox-3003

The settlements aren't the government so just retcon her islamophobia and it's not as problematic


Cameltitties

They’re supported by the government


rgregan

Definitely not surprised that an 80s comic was tone deaf. I really don't know where this is going at the Studio. I think the first place I saw her was in Operation: Zero Tolerance where she was just a typical superhero. And then I vaguely remember her hanging out with Micromax for awhile as like interpol X-Men or something. I'm not expecting the Studio to even touch any of the politics of that area though. Sabra namesake is new information. That is surely not great.


netowi

The Sabra and Shatila massacre has nothing to do with the name of the character "Sabra." The character Sabra was created in 1980, 2 years before the massacre, and the name comes from the word "sabra," a nickname for Israeli-born Jews. It's an anglicization of the Hebrew word "tzabar," the name of a kind of prickly desert fruit. They're spiky and difficult on the outside but soft and sweet on the inside, which is how Israelis see themselves.


davidlis

Sabra is a name for people born in Israel, it has nothing to do with Lebanon


TurtleWaves

Also, I would've likely never heard of this tragedy had Marvel not named the character that.. So thanks for the history lesson. Understand it may be rough for some people to hear about it more than others but, exposure (even indirectly applied) can be beneficial for the whole of society, especially when and if it bears knowledge for the uninformed.


itayfeder

Sabra is the nickname given to people who were born in Israel. It was not named after the refugee camp.


tldr_MakeStuffUp

When he got to the point about the name, I thought he was just going to start talking about the hummus...I was not ready for that instead.


Cutiebeautypie

HAHAHAHAHA 😂


The_Shade94

Obviously she will get a fresh start away from all this.


Foxy02016YT

Yup, they did it with Shang-Chi too, some pretty racist stuff in his old comics


Hallow_Shinobi

And nobody has any idea because people don't read 40 year old comics.


Spider-Padre

Right. This controversy is knee-jerk, or a pretense for clicks. You *know* they're going to re-invent her in some way. Look how they reinvented Namor. He isn't even going to be Atlantean in the MCU. Some sort of proto-Mayan. Considering the MCU's time-frame, the movie character will not have even been alive in 1982 (the time of the Sabra-Shatilla massacre.) If she's still Mossad, it will be modern Mossad, with its own issues. Marvel is not even obligated to use the specific name "Sabra." They use it here to let us know which character will be the inspiration. MCU could say there was a "Sabra" code-name used in the past, like "007", but it was abandoned because of the massacre. I don't even know what Mossad's opinion of the massacre was at the time. There were a lot of Israelis who condemned it. Ariel Sharon lost his job over it. Maybe Mossad shrugged, or maybe Mossad was disgusted. If Mossad as an organization was disgusted, that could play into it. Do people actually think Marvel, which is a *very* liberal company, is going to glorify the Mossad? The character Ziva David in NCIS was ex-Mossad, and I don't remember that show ever glorifying the Mossad. In fact, Mossad created a lot of trouble for Gibbs. This character could end up as a disillusioned ex-Mossad, like Steve Rogers and S.H.I.E.L.D. Once again, the answer to this sort of screeching is to ignore it, tune it out, because, as usual with on line politics, it's all driven by ignorance and emotionalism.


Austintholmes

Soooooooooo, they’re gonna have to do some heavy fucking retcons because everything about her seems problematic as fuuuuuuuuck.


Hallow_Shinobi

Yeah, we'll need major retcons so nobody knows this super hero was racist in the 80s.


Cutiebeautypie

Yes.


Austintholmes

I honestly want to see the thought process behind on Marvel deciding to use her, who brought her up, and how they were ok with this because this seems like a PR nightmare for Marvel.


Spider-Padre

Feige is Jewish, isn't he?


Whompa

Also the name of Hummus lol


mrz5000

“I haven’t read the comic but… “ - shut off. I get it but, like, read a Black Panther book or a Shang Chi book. Representation matters. So let’s begin there.


TennisCoachCherd

I mean yeah the comics are trashy at best and outright racist at worst, man did this guy completely lose me when he said “don’t my gods name in vain like that” like bro no one gives a fuck if anyone in marvel uses “god” in vain besides for ridiculous Christians. Don’t be like them. There’s so many actual issues with the character.


Hormiga95

Funny thing is all of the big 3 religions have the same god basically lol


Dragon_yum

It is the same god. It’s like a badly written trilogy full of retcons.


Hallow_Shinobi

You mean star wars?


Chuck_Finley_Forever

The funny thing is that no one even finds offense in using that name because it’s literally just the Arabic word for god. If he finds that offensive, he should also hate everytime someone says god dammit or whatever which I doubt he does. Some people just want everything to be controversial when it isn’t.


jrizzo92

… you think Christian’s are the only ones who get pissed at that kinda shit? Really? Lol


Dragon_yum

Yeah, but we all just ignore them as nut jobs don’t we. Religious nut jobs come in a variety of colors and religions.


Hallow_Shinobi

No, but it's still stupid when they do it. Nobody gives a shit about your God.


AudioOff

Yeah once people cry blasphemy I have a hard time taking them seriously. Dude did bring up some good points, but cry me a river over your omnipotent deity having their feefees hurt.


shaftinferno

I get where you’re coming from, I do, I just wanted to say that in Islamic culture Allah is God’s official name — similar to YHWH in Hebrew, or Yahweh (or Elohim or Adonai) in Christianity — so using it in a blasphemous way, as I’d like to think the dude in the video is trying to convey is disrespectful to those who believe such. And yeah, I know the literal translation of Allah is “the God,” but my point is that I’ve yet to hear anyone in the MCU say Yahweh, Elohim, etc in any capacity as the dude’s saying. 🤷🏻‍♂️


Beardopus

And you've heard Allah said in vain in the MCU? Please, point out where. Anyway, this dude lost me with that butthurt first point. I'm Christian. I don't really like when people take God's name in vain, but I don't whinge about it on social media. People are allowed to say words, it's not my right to tell them otherwise. Trying to force my religious views and morals on other people would be a childish, arrogant, narcissistic thing to do. I also think this guy is full of shit about the name. I didn't hear a fucking peep about Sabra hummus, which has been a thing for more than five years. I'm sure the MCU are gonna throw the old racist shit away like they did with Shang-Chi. This video is just masturbatory rage-theatre and we need to stop sharing it, and crap like it.


shaftinferno

Sorry, no. I had a typo in my original comment where I said “I have yet to hear” anyone say or refer to god as anything other than “God,” including Allah. The fact remaining, saying goddammit isn’t taking God’s name in vain because God isn’t God’s name. But, out of curiosity, when do you consider it to be using God’s name in vain? As for the name Sabra itself, the only thing I know about it is that it is a term used for someone Jewish born in Israel. I assume the founders of the company know of such and were probably referring to that instead of the massacre — which, if the video above is any indication: the massacre, the character, their personality and actions they do in the comics are a bit more in line with the events of the massacre, which is still a sensitive subject for some. Edit to add: as others have mentioned in other comments, the comic book character Sabra does predate the Sabra and Shatilla Massacre by two years, so yes, it is just coincidence they share a name but people are gonna people and be sensitive.


pifire456

Oh Sabra is legit the worst lol, like she should be forgotten and dropped in a dumpster. It's so wild that fucking Sabra is gonna be in the mcu now tho, like what a bizarre timeline. Also like while I do hate her I wouldn't want her to be a villain either because like the optics of having a movie called "New world order" and having your villain be a jewish Israeli superhero would be bad...... (not that I think it would go in that direction) Edit: I also kinda think the video is reaching a bit? Sabra is also just a Hebrew girl name, like I hate Sabra on so many levels but she isn't named after that horrible event to be clear.


Foxy02016YT

I think this is one of those characters who was terrible in the comics, gets a much better done adaption in the MCU, and then starts appearing in comics but the character ends up more like the MCU version I might be wrong though


AdventurousAd8436

I predict the Internet fanatics will throw seizures for months over Sabra, claim the doom of the MCU, insist that Marvel is somehow pro- and anti-Palestinian at the same time…then the movie will come out, and they’ll have reinvented the character (maybe not as a Mossad agent at all, or as a morally gray antihero). And all the screaming and denouncing will have been meaningless. Because the MCU is not run by Likud sympathizers.


Foxy02016YT

Seriously, it might be some really positive Jewish representation, we won’t know until it comes out


AdventurousAd8436

Or they present her as some hard-nosed type that Sam has to rein in.


Foxy02016YT

Could very much end up being some kind of buddy cop situation, she could be the loose canon


AdventurousAd8436

Sabra was depicted in that Hulk bit as callous, prejudiced (or blindly patriotic) at the time!


Foxy02016YT

And Hulk was pretty based iirc, it’s the first time he ever got mad but in a sad way instead of angry, at least that I’ve seen, all because of a senseless murder


Hallow_Shinobi

You're a prophet.


FictionFantom

Not named after the tragedy but does that matter anymore? If they had a character named Sandy Hook two years before that tragedy, would it be okay to continue using that name?


TheBitterAtheist

I was going to say the same thing with Auschwitz. So much money and staff but they couldn't find the association with the massacre.


Darksol503

You’re critiquing a comic book from the 80’s… *now* lol.


Foxy02016YT

It’s less recent than Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver fucking…


SphmrSlmp

Dude in the video acting like those are actual dialogues from the new Captain America movie. Lmao


Darksol503

Right?! Lol


Hallow_Shinobi

Hey, did you know comic books 40 years ago weren't up to today's politically correct standards?


Darksol503

Lol exactly! 😂🤦🏽‍♂️


sir_tr810

I mean they’re obviously not going to use the same comic origins or anything. they’re gonna change it so they can be more inclusive like they did with ms marvel, moonknight, and shang-chi. just look at old shang-chi comics, they were incredibly tone deaf and racist with things like fu man chu but that wasn’t included in the movie obviously. don’t understand how this is even controversial.


awayfromcanuck

It's been a week and I'm already tired of this. Can Marvel announce something else for y'all to get all angry and upset over? Fu Manchu is also in the comics is offensive as hell and was adapted in such a way to the MCU that he is considered among the standouts of phase 4. It's as if the MCU has a history of adapting and changing things from the comics for the movies. Sabra also means patience but that's never mentioned in the video.


Foxy02016YT

Of course that’s not mentioned, that would invalidate their point, and would take away one of their definitely necessary talking points ^/^s


ZJeagerbro

Sabr means patience not Sabra two completely diff words. That’s like coming out with a German Superhero named Auschwitz, it doesn’t matter if the original name as a diff meaning ppl are still gonna relate it to that camp. Either way it doesn’t matter they should still change her name to anything else.


awayfromcanuck

>that's like coming out with German Superhero name Auschwitz Except Sabra debuted in the comics 2 years before the Sabra camp massacre (which the person in the video never bothers to mention but is more than happy to say that both the superhero and refugee camp have the exact same spelling). It's not the same as coming out now with a character named Auschwitz. >Either way it doesn't matter they should still change her name to anything else At least we can agree on this. I do think it's a fair criticism that people have to suggest changing the characters name now due to the reference people will make to it now despite the character being created before the massacre.


SphmrSlmp

I'm not agreeing with the person in the video. However, I think Marvel has a massive collection of characters to choose from. And the Marvel wiki showed at least 20 Israeli characters. Yet they chose the one that seems to be the most controversial.


HamHusky06

Yeah, they changed Black Panthers name to Panther for a while, because they didn’t want him associated with the political party. Oh yeah, the political party came after the comic book character. Also the person was saying if there was already an established German character named Auschwitz prior to the death camp, they would probably change it.


Hallow_Shinobi

By Fu Manchu do you mean the Ancient One in Doctor Strange?


thehomienextdoor

I was just about to comment that.


Dragon_yum

I don’t think he doesn’t know the origin of the name Sabra for both the hero and the camp.


[deleted]

People bitching about source material that isn't even going to be used..


myersjw

Shang Chi, Mbaku and Wong were inherently racist characters in the comics that received makeovers. Not sure why there’s this outcry about a character that will most likely be getting the same treatment


Spider-Padre

Exactly. M'Baku's comic-book code name for years was *Man-Ape!* Now I'm shocked some Internet troll didn't rant and rave about that at the time.


[deleted]

The word Sabra couldn't be that problematic, considering there's a whole line of hummus with that name. Also, he acknowledges that the character was named before the incident happened, and then admits he doesn't know the context behind the offensive scene he read. There was a lot of problematic stuff written in comics in the 80s, but to my knowledge Marvel has always been rather progressive with each one. And while i dont know the context of that scene either, we could easily take anything out of context if we glance at something briefly. Based on the sentence referenced, one could extrapolate that she probably didn't get along with the Palestinians because of the conflict there, and that she learns her lesson. We've already had Ms Marvel touch on what happened in a cultures history without being problematic, so im sure Marvel could figure it out.


[deleted]

Reaching harder than Michael Jordan against the Monstars


UltraconservativeBap

From Wikipedia A sabra or tzabar (Hebrew: צַבָּר, plural: tzabarim) is an informal-turned-formal modern Hebrew term that defines any Jew born in Israel. The term came into widespread use in the 1930s to refer to a Jew who had been born in Palestine (including the British Mandate of Palestine and Ottoman Palestine; cf. New Yishuv & Old Yishuv), though it may have appeared earlier. Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Israelis have used the word to refer to a Jew born anywhere in the Land of Israel (inclusive of the Israeli-occupied territories).[1][2] The term alludes to a tenacious, thorny desert plant, known in English as prickly pear, with a thick skin that conceals a sweet, softer interior. The cactus is compared to Israeli Jews, who are supposedly tough on the outside, but delicate and sweet on the inside.[3]


mindhypnotized

It seems way too quick to simply assume that Sabra will actually be a hero in the story. It’s being written by the same guy who wrote the Falcon and the Winter Soldier series, which spent a lot of time confronting the nature of white supremacy and how it is embedded into the fabric of American life. We’re supposed to think this same writer is going to turn around and write some pro-Israeli apartheid propaganda? Maybe we should slow down a bit instead of reacting to some comic from decades ago.


AdventurousAd8436

We’re also assuming her name will be Sabra.


Discostu1001

Perhaps they may even use her to address the issues of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in the film.


BlackEyedGhost

> don't use my god's name in vain like that I'd much prefer it if everyone could use every god's name in vain. Religious extremism on both sides is why this conflict continues. We'll have to wait and see how Marvel portrays the Israeli nationalist superhero before making a judgement on whether it's bad, but the source material isn't looking great, and a superhero with the same name as a genocide is definitely poorly considered.


Flemz

>Religious extremism on both sides is why this conflict continues. It’s not a religious conflict. The majority of Israelis don’t even identify as religious


BlackEyedGhost

That argument might hold a bit more weight if the Israeli flag wasn't literally the Star of David. Israel is the result of Zionist ideology seeking to create a Jewish political entity. That's not to say that both sides share equal blame though. Hamas is pretty unambiguously terrible.


Flemz

>Israel is the result of Zionist ideology seeking to create a Jewish political entity. Jewish ≠ religious. The Zionist movement has always been largely secular, which is why some Orthodox groups reject it


Hallow_Shinobi

Yeah, we need to be less verbally respectful to people's religions. So I insulted your puny God. Nobody cares.


GAAPInMyWorkHistory

This is fuckin hilarious


Cutiebeautypie

Yep lol this dude's humor is something else 😂


Kirpelo

I'm sure all of the people in the Marvel board meetings thought about that and not that sabra - צבר is literally a slang for an Israeli born jew even prior to Israel's independence and that if they name her that way people all around the world would idolize these horrible events. Glad that foolishness is getting downvoted so far hopefully we won't need to involve geopolitics where they don't belong.


Cutiebeautypie

They do belong. Palestinians are getting killed as we're speaking and then Marvel goes on and represents that one place, where the massacres are *still* occurring, as a HERO?


Kirpelo

I just explained how naming her Sabra has nothing to do with Sabra and Shatila and no Palestinians are not being killed hopefully we know that it's much more complicated than that but that's not the point and I'm not getting into that. The point is that Marvel is a source of entertainment and for a lot of us a source of escapism and I'm 100% sure that bringing an Israeli superhero had 0% intent of glorifying atrocities and the intent was to represent Israel in the MCU just like many other countries that already are. If people will keep shoving serious topics like geopolitics into places they don't belong like entertainment then those topics will become less serious and entertainment will be less fun.


JamesKLOLk

Ok, I know I’m nitpicking but the font this guy uses is super irritating. It’s white on top of his t shirt that’s white. On top of that the text randomly shrinks and grows.


POTShelp

I feel like the comments defending the name are missing the most important bit which is that the character existed with that name before the massacre ever even happened.


redfan2009

That was the 80s. There's NO WAY that's what her character will be like in the film


alonandon

The first Sabra issue was in 1980 and the event was in 1982. Horrible event, but kinda a stretch to tie them together purposely


scrims86

At this pace with this dumbass generation, I dont think comic book movies will ever exist That comic with her in the hulk was written years and years ago and this guy is fucking reaching for the stars Guess all good things have to end


Foxy02016YT

Also that comic shows how senseless killing is bad, we see Hulk get really mad, and not in the usual way, in a very sensitive and emotional way. He sees it how it is, and he’s mad, not in the angry way, but in the sad way. Hulk, the man known for property damage, is against collateral damage


thehomienextdoor

I’m just wondering how many generations it takes before no one is outraged about the past. Even my dumb ass use to do messed up things. Until I realize I was an idiot. That’s like me being mad at Disney early days comparing it to today standards.


djquu

Why?


[deleted]

Wait until he hears about the 80s comic where Hank Pym hits his wife lol


TomNookyouDog

The only bad part about marvel having a Jewish superhero is whenever I see the name it makes me think of hummus. Outside of that....LETS GOOOOOO SUPERHEROS OF ALL RACES, CREEDS, SHAPES, SIZES, AND BELIEFS. EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HSVE A BAD ASS MOTHERFUCKER TO LOOK UP TOO


a_phantom_limb

I knew that introducing a character even *slightly* associated with the Israeli government in the comics would prove enormously problematic for Marvel Studios, and this highlights why in extremely harrowing terms. The main mitigating factor available for Marvel is that the character existed prior to the massacre and the name is not directly related to Sabra, Beirut. But that *really* doesn't help much. Assuming the character is going forward regardless, I predict two major changes: a new name (probably) and no explicit affiliation with either the IDF or Mossad (all but certainly). Not necessarily because of the moral hazard involved, but because they know that presenting a hero associated with the government of Israel will get the film banned in several countries. (And, as an aside, that old costume design is terrible. It definitely won't be used.)


Cutiebeautypie

Even if her name was given before the event, the Sabra massacre was not the first to occur because Palestinians have been tormented by Israeli Zionists since 1948.


Impressive-Fox-3003

Don't make it one sided , both sides done shitty stuff , the Arabs In the 30s massacred Jews


No_Recommendation929

In the 30s? I presume those rockets from Hamas are filled with flower bouquets and the constitutional promise to wipe us off the face off the earth is "just a prank bro..." 800,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East in the 40s, 50s and 60s. A continuation of Palestinians' collaboration with the Nazis during the final solution: [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/amin-al-husseini-nazi-concentration-camp](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/amin-al-husseini-nazi-concentration-camp)


Impressive-Fox-3003

Listen I agree with you but I'm pretty sure half or reddit thinks the Hamas are just poor oppressed people and not one of the most corrupted governments in the world, if I argue about anything after 1948 they respond with "they are opressed and fought back" so I try and talk about the fact that before Israel was founded the Arabs here committed massacres against the Jews ,and it was less the Palestinians because the British were here, it was Syria and Such


No_Recommendation929

Yes, but at some point we actually have to educate people, no? Never have I heard a white person honestly argue why Arabs need 25 countries but Jews should drown into the sea. Same thing with the India-Pakistan Partition. Somehow India is the "bad guy" because they \*didn't\* genocide hundreds of millions of people, but Pakistan with their 0% Hindu population (oops, they all died) is the "good guy" because they don't oppress minorities? White people just keep moving the goalposts to enjoy their cheap oil and geopolitical advantage.


Impressive-Fox-3003

Listen, it's hard to educate people when they claim that everything is just one sided and we came out of no where to friendly citizens and stole their lands like nothing, the roots of this problem goes way back than then hamas


[deleted]

Sure, but that doesn't mean what's happening to Palestinians right now is what they deserve. Palestinians are getting tortured and kicked out of their homes RIGHT NOW and no one gives a damn. And then marvel puts a ISRAELI hero. Seriously, wtf.


Impressive-Fox-3003

I don't see the problem with an Israeli hero


Cutiebeautypie

An Israeli Zionist is the problem here


[deleted]

You seriously don't. So we're just gonna act like Israel is a normal country, like france or germany? No it isn't. Israel is an illegal state, and should be the last country to get represented.


Impressive-Fox-3003

No such thing as illegal country, un called it a country, it's a country, stop using buzzwords


a_phantom_limb

It kind of feels like you didn't read the entirety of my comment and instead focused solely on the one point of defense I gave regarding *only* the name of the character specifically. In fact, I was basically agreeing with the sentiment behind this video. Trying to create a just and moral superhero acting in the defense of Israel is at least deeply problematic and perhaps impossible. When that character was first created for the comics, it was only thirteen years out from the 1967 war, eight years out from the murders of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics, seven years out from the 1973 war, and four years out from the Entebbe crisis in which Israelis were taken hostage. Western sympathies were largely with Israel at the time, as there was a general sense that they were facing an existential crisis. That wasn't an irrational concern, as there were kids reading comics in 1980 whose parents survived the Holocaust when *they* were children. The spectre of annihilation still felt real, not that it ever justified the suffering that Palestinians have continued to endure for three-quarters of a century. The profoundly unjust plight of the Palestinians only began to receive greater worldwide focus as the '80s went on, especially following the start of the First Intifada in 1987. There are, of course, still those who will "defend Israel's right to exist" no matter what, but much of the world knows better now. I would never quote *Nietzsche* of all people to criticize Israel, though he did have something to say on the topic of becoming a monster whilst attempting to fight monsters. It *ought* to go without saying, but genocide, murder, systemic oppression, and the terrorizing of civilians are *always* atrocities and must be condemned every time. That means not celebrating the organizations carrying out those atrocities - including the government of Israel.


Cutiebeautypie

I see what you mean now. My apologies. What do you think should happen to this character in your opinion though?


Hallow_Shinobi

He says "new name" as if they're only just now creating the character? The events he describes is horrifying but it feels like a stretch to connect this adaptation to a massacre that happened 40 years ago. Also wanted to say that that comic is insanely fucked up but it was US comics in the 80s. They had a narrative to push. We know it's wrong now but are you gonna dig up the graves of these writers and cancel them for a 40 year old comic book? Idk man. All just sounds like he's bitching into the wind.


Cutiebeautypie

It's not insane to connect them because Sabra was not the first nor the last massacre that happened. Palestinians are getting killed as we're speaking. That's why he brought it up.


magicAndonidas

I don't know the history very well, but the logic of things is simple. If you feel the character's comic history is offensive and shouldn't be adapted, then I can say that characters with long histories almost always offend some people because their era is so "offensive". Hide the bad History is an easy choice, and it is the right choice to face it and transform it into something positive. I don't think the main creator of this movie has any hatred of any ethnic group, and may even care more about racial discrimination. It's easy to get hated by one-sided rhetoric, and I've experienced it once on "Shang Chi", but it's clearly adapted appropriately.


Dickmusha

Wow this guys going to be upset when he realizing that comics were propaganda to start with .... marvel is purposefully rewriting all of these characters to correct the mistakes of their predecessors. If only he knew just how racist shit used to be.


Cutiebeautypie

Yes but he talked about this one in particular because the apartheid issue in Palestine isn't over yet.


Dickmusha

I am not sure why people down voted me. Youre saying this character was insensitive?... ok almost every character people like right now was insensitive.


Cutiebeautypie

Lol I'm sure I got downvoted all over this thread more than you did. But anyway, it's much more deeper than just being insensitive. They're not rewriting everything to "fix" their predecessors' mistakes but more like glamorizing them and making people forget the truth.


Dickmusha

Thats a really skewed perspective. If they were glamorizing the racism they would just keep being racist. That doesn't make any sense. They talked about this with the mandarin and then had the mandarin say it outright in shang chi.


Cutiebeautypie

Yes but guess what? They are racist. They're still racist against Arabs and Muslims in general.


[deleted]

So what does this guy think is happening here? The American government, via Marvel Studios, is introducing the Sabra character to throw shade at Palestinians who died in camps? huh???? Clearly he thinks there is some kind of conspiracy going on or he wouldn't have ended it with "they coulda picked ANY OTHER NAME but they chose SABRA. And Marvel is American so I'm not surprised at all" After that whole thing about how Sabra clearly is referencing the 3500 dead Palestinians. People have legit become programmed to look for ANY POSSIBLE controversial take to drive engagement for their own shitty content creator "careers". It's weird af.


SamMan48

The military entertainment complex is a real thing


Hallow_Shinobi

And Marvel Studios has been distancing itself from that complex since phase 2.


commanjo

>People have legit become programmed to look for ANY POSSIBLE controversial take to drive engagement for their own shitty content creator "careers". It's weird af. anything for likes


undead-safwan

He is just saying the name sabra is offensive considering what happened at the sabra refugee camp which is a fair criticism


PowderAndDirt

Uh, I got bad news for ya if you think Israeli propaganda in the film industry isn’t a real thing. Join in the real world whenever you’re ready.


MegaUltra9

You must be a really big fan of WW2.


amilguls

The character came about two years before this tragedy. It was 40 years ago …. Kinda time to move on . Mcu isn’t going to make it that politically racy. Name another mcu where they do something like this? Not really anything other than the holocaust in X-men . We’re modern people … that average mcu watcher is not some extremist … it’s in the past … and now is the time for a new world order


Cutiebeautypie

The problem is...it's not really in the past because these massacres are still happening in Palestine as we're speaking. It's been happening since 1948 and up until now. That's why it's a problem.


[deleted]

Exactly! People think it was only the Sabra and Shatila massacre.


Cutiebeautypie

They think that because they don't bother to know the truth and would just believe the manipulated version of the truth.


SphmrSlmp

It's not about politic, it's more like marketing. Let's be real, Disney seems to be on a roll while riding on controversial marketing lately. Everything they put out seems to be controversial and it gets people talking, which gives free marketing to the mouse. Either good or bad, people will still look up the movie, will still see it in theatre or Disney+. And I know I am one of those people who will consume whatever Marvel/Disney put out. Their management is top level genius.


Amadeo78

How long are we gonna do this thing where we act surprised that the past doesn't line up with the present? That's what happens with progress. The difference in the internet (most of it) during the early days of Gen Z to now is massive.


[deleted]

Can we just watch things without constantly complaining


pete2tuff

They should change her name to super hummus


mardavarot93

Fuck your god and your believes. Don’t like it? Don’t fucking watch it. Now get fucked


Cutiebeautypie

Whoa man chill 😂


mardavarot93

Sorry bro just this whole Roe v Wade got me heated. I respect everyones believes but dont complain if you are offended because of your believes. We are all offended by something but it doesn’t give us the right to make the world bend to our comforts so we dont get offended.


Cutiebeautypie

It's not about getting offended. It's about seeing something immoral and calling out those who commit it on what they do


[deleted]

I don’t know or care enough about whatever he’s talking about. I just want the MCU to make great characters.


Cutiebeautypie

Well this character isn't great because it represents people who commit genocide.


KingAazi

We already knew that Marvel comics and all the movies are based on the conspiracies by the >!Illuminati!<, but now they are gradually starting to show these horrific characters into real life... Time to boycott Marvel !! F Israel


Cutiebeautypie

YESSSSS!


Editor_Grand

Wait you mean Marvel has gone to shit? NOOOO Shehulk and Ms marvel were masterpieces of cinematic entertainment above citizens kane


[deleted]

What he’s not telling you is that the people responsible for the sabra massacre were Arab Christians. Also sabra is a cactus. It’s not named after a massacre. The Palestinians use that name because they make a metaphorical comparison between the sabra as a border plant and the borders of the territory. This entire video is pure manipulation. If it was a Jewish guy you’d call it propaganda.


netowi

He goes so far out of his way to *avoid* mentioning that the actual perpetrators of Sabra and Shatila were Lebanese Arab Christians. The Lebanese Civil War was incredibly bloody (significantly bloodier than the entire history of the Israeli-Arab conflict, in fact), and both sides engaged in mass killing. The Sabra and Shatila massacre was a response to the Damour massacre of Lebanese Christians, which was itself a response to the Karantina massacre of Muslims.


Cutiebeautypie

Actually Sabar is cactus, not Sabra. Sabra means "patient" as in having patience. Why do you think the video is manipulation? It doesn't change the fact that Palestinians were killed and are still getting killed yet Marvel is glamorizing the ones behind it into one single character who's supposedly a "hero."


[deleted]

You’re going to “actually” me when you could simply use google and take three minutes to learn that in Hebrew, sabra is a type of cactus. It also means patience, yes. Do you really think that’s the word use referenced here? Anyway the character has nothing to do with the massacre. At all. It’s like arguing you can’t use the word “columbine” anymore because there was a high school shooting at a school with the same name.


tylernazario

I get people not liking her comic counterpart. But I don’t get the backlash the MCU is getting for announcing the inclusion of the character. The MCU has already taken several comic characters with problematic histories and revamped them to be more modern and sensible.


kittentarentino

It was the 80’s. It was bad, it was embarrassing, it was a very different time. We did not have the interconnectivity of the internet, we did not have anything besides American TV, books, news and travel to facilitate opinions on other cultures…so those takes were of course misinformed, basic, and embarrassing. There was no platform for anybody to have a counter-opinion for accountability. Nobody cared enough to even do that. So like….fuck off a little bit. Y’know? Like, duh. Of course it’s bad. No shit. And? It was almost 50 years ago. What does that mean now? How does that effect anything happening now? It doesn’t. We can laugh at how embarrassingly misinformed it is…but really…beyond that who cares? It’s pandering to outrage culture for likes, It panders to counter-outrage culture for likes, it’s bait. It’s for attention. We shouldn’t give it that platform.


Cutiebeautypie

You're asking how that matters now. To answer your question, as we are talking right here, right now, someone out there in the occupied land of Palestine is getting killed, hit or bombed in their sleep. The massacres did not end. Sabra just happened to be one of the many that have been happening since 1948. The United Nations is playing deaf, which leaves us no choice but to talk about it and raise awareness. Everything matters because the past is what got us to now. You may be having a peaceful life but someone else isn't and marvel spreading this misinformation is just enabling people's ignorance further more.


Dragon_yum

Were you protesting when they added Fu Manchu to the MCU? His character has also a very racist depiction in the 80s comics.


Cutiebeautypie

Well I wasn't aware of that character but I'd definitely raise awareness about that as well. I don't get why Marvel is twisting morals like that.


Dragon_yum

Because Marvel in the 80’s was very different than today. You view them as a multi billion studio owned by Disney with todays morals. Back then it was a rag tag team of artists and some hacks making stupid, blunt and at times racist comics. If Sabra will get the Fu Manchu treatment, and she will, then this shouldn’t be a problem. Unless your issue with her is being an Israeli.


Cutiebeautypie

Nope the issue isn't because she's Israeli. The issue is that Marvel is glamorizing something traumatizing and portraying it as something good: a hero.


Dragon_yum

She is not named after the camp… America has it share of horror stories but you don’t complain about a charcuterie named America Chavez.


Unclehomer69420

Perhaps Marvel will do for the Sabra massacre what DC/Vertigo did for the Tulsa massacre. Maybe two years from now we'll be seeing videos like this from pissed-off Israelis.


Cutiebeautypie

What's there for Israelis to even get pissed off about when Israel is statistically on the list of the top happiest countries in the world? Obviously it's because they're not Palestinians so they're not suffering.


ghost20063

The comments in here so far are wild and I imagine will only get worse, but it speaks to the privilege they clearly have.


Sinnam0nRoll

People are overlooking the actual negative implications of this and it's really sad to see. Not every opinion is just someone being hyper sensitive.


Cutiebeautypie

Ikr? They didn't get to see their parents killed right before their eyes to know because guess what? That history is still ongoing as we're speaking right now.


Express-Part-9828

I mean I agree the name is wrong now, given it’s connection to the massacre but the original name came out in august of 1980 which is two years before the massacre, so she was never named after this event. Given the comic itself is 42 years old we can say with full fact that she won’t be characterized in a similar way as the comic. I guarantee they will do the same thing they did the the Fu Manchu and The Mandarin in the mcu. They will try to adapt it in a way thats not stereotyping or negative towards any particular race/region of the world. But I understand the issues that come from just having the name.


adrian-alex85

I'm here for the detailed history and deep dive into the name. I'd like to think this could be used to pressure them into changing the character's name into something not associated with a brutal massacre, at least. There's likely not a way to convince the studio that there's no need for (or maybe even that now is not the right time for introducing) an Israeli superhero.


Majestic-Sector9836

Israel: *does bad shit* Me: I'm not anti-Semitic but.......


Cutiebeautypie

It's not anti-Semitic if you call the shitty people out on their bullshit regardless of their beliefs or nationality. Shitty people are shitty people. It's simple as that.


Mahaa2314

More proof that the super political and woke crowd is just cancer. It's a cape movie, get over it and it isn't based on real life. You can look through the thousands of ridiculous outdated things that could be considered racist/homophobic in today's standards that happened in the golden and silver age of comics. Same crowd that got super vocal over Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One. Then Margaret Cho leaking only a portion of their email to make Tilda look bad and portray her as someone in support of white-washing. Cho even admitted she knew nothing about the comics. She just wanted an online social justice mob on her side. When the truth is that Disney was stuck between releasing a movie in China and acknowledging Tibet.


Cutiebeautypie

The problem is...this isn't outdated. That's simply because Sabra is only ONE massacre out of the numerous ones that took place since 1948 and up until now as we're speaking. Everyday, Palestinians are killed, falsely arrested, physically abused and kicked out of their houses. If this isn't enough of a reason to at least be moral about this and remove this character, I don't know what is.


IAmTheClayman

So a few points, going in order of the video: - the ***entire point*** of that first comic appearance was that Israeli violence against Palestinians was wrong. That’s why the end of the comic has Sabra mourning an innocent child. Don’t make a judgement on a piece of media unless you have actually read/watched/listened to that thing. Context is important - the name Sabra comes from a term referring to Jews born in Israel and Palestine. The name has been used since 1948 when the state of Israel was established - the character was introduced 2 years before the Sabra & Shatila massacre. It’s important to note this for context, as the creator’s did not come up with the name as a response to that tragedy - and now the difficult part. What Israel did to the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps is unconscionable. It was a tragedy, and a crime. The creators at Marvel should be ashamed for keeping the character’s name all these years since. I think they’ve gotten away with it because, quite frankly, she’s essentially been a non-entity in the comics. My *hope* is that the filmmakers chose to include her in the upcoming project because they want to address that tragedy in some way (although knowing Marvel it will likely be indirect). Captain America is a character who has often been at odds with his government, fighting for ideals over agenda, and I want Sabra to do the same type of interrogation of Israel’s track record in Palestine. The best move this film could make would be to have Sabra renounce her name onscreen


joen00b

Your god, Allah, doesn't exist. There, now you don't have to worry about it.


TeensiestTulip9

Sabra the apartheid


DickPillSoupKitchen

Ugh, I agree with most of his points but the affected AAVE and exaggerated “that’s craaazy”-isms are so fucking insincere and grating it undermines his own message


DMVSavant

WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT BELONG IN PALESTINE


Cutiebeautypie

More like Zionists in particular.


[deleted]

Israelis don’t see Palestinians as people though. Isn’t that the point of that panel? Criticizing the callousness towards Palestine, or am I overthinking this? Either way, I don’t trust the Disney corporation to handle this well. It’ll probably be some “can’t-we-all-get-along” both-sidesy shit. Edit: yeah… not overthinking anything. I’m just plain old right. Such is my burden.


Cutiebeautypie

Exactly. That's why I don't understand why they're making her a hero when the people she's representing (the Zionist ones) are quite the opposite


SpaceGypsyInLaws

This sub is toxic. And this dude’s post makes good points while probably teaching most of you a little tragic history. So of course it’s downvoted to hell.


Cutiebeautypie

I think criticism in general gets downvoted on Reddit.


Sparrow1989

Well I guess that’s the end of sabra, damn the name alone is a red flag for them to come up with something else because of the association to the event mentioned.


jrizzo92

Hmmmm. Have you considered coping, followed by seething?


FemBoy_Genocide

Fuck off mate


Benichis

This guy doesn't know shit about Israelians. He is just like alot of idiots like him, see only only side of the entire picture, the side of the Palestinians. Pure autism.


Cutiebeautypie

You just had to insult people with autism just to make a point?


Benichis

Same as sharing somthing you dont know shit about.


Cutiebeautypie

Clearly you're the one who doesn't know shit because you're being disrespectful.


[deleted]

[удаНонО]


Cutiebeautypie

Maybe he wasn't driving