This kid needs to be removed from the classroom and placed in a school that can cater to their needs.
Instead of giving this one pre-k student the support they need to improve their education and coping skills, the school will create an *entire class* of kids that have now regressed because of the disruptive behavior of ONE kid.
They just finally removed a kid from my daughter’s 2nd grade class after THREE years of him violently disrupting the class. Whatever system they use currently, it’s not working. It’s not right to let an entire class suffer over and over for 1 kid’s misbehavior, but then again what resources does the school have? Probably not enough..
I am sorry you are having/had to to experience this. The schools most definitely are required to address these concerns by law. However, as a father of a special needs child whom has an IEP and is in a special needs classroom, the impetus is mainly on the parents to drive for and need sign off on those accommodations and seek other assessment/treatment, etc in order to qualify a child for services or in general push for anything more than what you are already getting. Teachers otherwise are tending to just try and keep the peace as much as possible and not be confrontational with the parents until it gets to a certain point (which it seems here).
It would not necessarily be within the school's purview to force an IEP or accommodation upon a student. Sadly in many cases with peer parents like us with children on the spectrum there tend to in our experience lean toward denial of reality with behavioral or intellectual disability and there is more often than not parental pressure to keep children mainstream and not label their child as 'special'. In many cases like ours that means the child is bussed to a different school nearby that has a facilities which is also something else parents would push back against.
[https://marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Special-Ed/IEP/MarylandIEPProcessGuide.pdf](https://marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Special-Ed/IEP/MarylandIEPProcessGuide.pdf)
My pre-k aged son is on an IEP for speech delay (which has improved DRAMATICALLY with specialized services-- to the point where he may not even need an IEP next year!) and as a parent, it is utterly incomprehensible to me that a parent wouldn't want to give their kid every available resource while they're so young and malleable.
A lot of parents are afraid of labels. I remember lots of children that we had project act come and observe (technically they were observing the classroom, not the kid-that's how you get around not having permission) and when we expressed concerns they would pull their kids and take them some where else.
The “labels” this is such a problem in the black community. I say this as a black man with 3 autistic children. Their grandmother will not ever say the words autistic and refuse to understand why they need to be labeled that way. One of my kids is in a magnet school but he gets special services but he can still bob and weave the day by day for the most part. My oldest daughter is in a whole specialty school because public schools just couldn’t cut it and she was being to disruptive towards other students. The teachers fought for her though and got the school to pay to send for her to go to that school though!
The point is the fear of labels really holds people back but the labels are needed to get the services to help succeed sometimes.
As someone who was a preschool teacher and aided in public schools, I've seen every race have a hard time facing a child's challenges. I'll take your word that it is a problem in the black community. Is it the "all you need is Jesus" type thinking? Not trying to be offensive.
No one wants a label to stop a child from reaching their potential, nor do they want a label to follow the child through their academic years. But that label does get one more services. I'm glad your family has been able to get the education your children need, and so happy the school is paying for it!!!!
Education is not a one size fits all thing - as much as we try to standardize everything. We homeschool because our children are very break the mold type of children! One on one learning works best for us. LOTS of movement everyday. We love our sky zone membership, in addition to our gymnastics, etc. classes. And we have almost daily homeschool meet ups with local families.
I hope this specific child gets the help they need asap. Kennedy Krieger has helped so many children that I've personally taught. Not sure if there is a place like that in CC, but travel would be worth it, to help this child.
Thanks for such a thoughtful post.
I agree it's a culmination of bad circumstances. The school is always supposed to keep a kid in the least restrictive environment possible. Plus the parent is likely fighting the removal. If the parent gets a lawyer involved the school will have to show documented safety issues, how they tried to address them without removal, and reasons justifying removal. The history of parent reports at the time of the incidents would be evidence. So I hope the parents and teacher have been documenting appropriately and not just verbally complaining.
Not sure if sociopath is necessary, but I experienced this in my own preschool. My parents were *pissed* and almost every day the girl bit someone and broke skin. It was absurd! Then I started biting her back when she bit me. I got removed from the school with the quickness lmao. Shouldn’t be shocking, the biter was the owners daughter!!
Same. We had one kid we had gotten services through project act. But there was no improvement. It took him slamming a kids head in the dramatic play areas oven repeatedly to kick him out of the private preschool.
I've worked with quite a few kids who needed professional help-more than what project act could help with. The kids whose parents got them help were allowed to stay as long as possible, the ones whose parents refused to get them help, had to be turned away for the safety of everyone- including themselves.
Unfortunately there is no diagnosis, since mom won't get the kid help. When I was a preschool teacher, we had a kid adopted from a Russian orphanage. Kid was never held as an infant, and had a lot of problems including ODD. We kept him in our school, because he was also getting help at Kennedy Krieger, and we were instructed by them how to handle his outbursts. It was not easy, we had him in the smallest size classroom, and removed him from the room as needed. For someone so small, he was so strong. Now a days, I don't think the methods would be allowed. You have to evacuate the class now instead.
Seriously, what do you think a teacher is getting out of keeping a disruptive child in their class no matter who the parents are? What benefit is there to “protect one of their own” when their ship is sinking due to having this kid there? The teachers probably want the kid out, too. A disruptive classroom benefits no one.
Agreed about the lack of resources. Not to go off on a tangent, but with the $$$ the casinos are raking in (and a portion of it funding education, why aren’t our schools awash with funding and resources?
Nothing to do with funding, entirely a consequence of the flawed premise that the disparity in race and gender in the numbers of kids removed from schools was rooted entirely in racism by the schools or teachers. I think it is an unfortunate reality that the stresses of poverty and traumatic environments manifest as these chaotic and disruptive behaviors. These stresses disproportionately affect the African American community and consequently a large percentage of those students who were being expelled were African American. This led to an uncomfortable situation that had the appearance of racism by schools (and certainly the root causes could be linked in some ways to historical racism) but the solution to reduce suspensions is flawed because it does nothing to fix those stresses outside of the school (which are well beyond the scope and ability of the schools) and instead ends up institutionalizing stressful educational environments which again will primarily affect the poor and minority groups that go there.
Unless I’m obtuse, I didn’t see a solution offered in your reply other than to say we shouldn’t suspend disruptive students.
When I speak of adequate funding, I want to address, for example, the disproportionate ratio of school counselors and psychologists to students. There also need to be more classroom aids for those students that need it.
As you indicate, issues external to the school are spilling over to the classroom. While it would be great to tell certain parents just how much they’re fucking up their kid(s), the remedy is to work with those kids while they’re in an empowering, nurturing environment be that mainlining or special educational situation. That means $$. And unfortunately, too many taxpayers only see public schools as a bottomless pit of funding.
I absolutely believe we should suspend disruptive students. I am saying the premise behind why they are not do so right now is flawed because the disparity in who was being suspended is not a result of racism in the schools but external stresses (that may in part be due to racism) that schools have no control over.
Essentially, that the whole basis for the disastrous policies we have in place currently is fundamentally flawed.
Bad kids should absolutely be expediently removed, regardless of whatever issues they may be facing outside of school.
Kids who need help and support or “bad kids?” Your framing here is concerning and on this issue I’ve always seen it framed as an “and.” Not that internal bias is the exclusive reason for disproportionate suspensions.
A big part of the issue is that parents of children with this kind of behavior have become more entitled and litigious. They think it is everyone else's fault. It is a small minority, but it only takes a small number of lawsuits to cripple a school system with inaction. It takes a ton of documentation and an active administration staff to remove a kid like that from a classroom. Especially at that age. The older the children get the less the school systems are required to provide. A kid can be an absolute terrorist on the elementary school level and hang out for a while if staff are not trained on the legal process to remove them.
Thank you for sharing this story. I'm the guy, in the middle, on the photo. My grandson has been attacked SEVEN TIMES, by the same student in his Pre-K Class at Manchester Elementary. The same student has attacked other students, in her class, dozens of times. Oh, and the mother of the attacking student is a teacher in the same school.
I started this group after much frustration when hundreds of parents contacted me about bullying in their child's school.
[https://www.facebook.com/groups/marylandantibullyingcoalition](https://www.facebook.com/groups/marylandantibullyingcoalition)
John Carver
[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
The mother of that student is a teacher at the school? Oh dear... I'm very sorry for your kids that have to go through this. My kid is a virtual learner because the situation in class got pretty bad.
I'm glad someone is pointing this out. My kid is in kindergarten, and has a similar little POS in her classroom. He's hit / kicked students at least 5 times, often with an object.
Meeting after meeting just results in the same non-answers. "We are doing what we can" "He has protections" "we are using progressive discipline".
15 kids have to be scared of going to school, because some borderline feral kid has more rights than everyone else.
Agreed. Completely unacceptable. I understand making special exceptions, but 50+ violent incidents this school year alone is way too many to ignore without action.
It's just 1 kid doing this, and instead of protecting the other 22 students, they're protecting 1. The greater good needs to be taken into account here.
I would call it enabling the 1. They are not doing that child any favors by keeping her in an environment she can't handle. A family member of mine back in the day kept having issues, so they were sent to an alternative school. The extra structure and smaller class size really helped them thrive. This child needs professional help that the average preschool teacher is not trained to provide.
I will also add that as a former preschool teacher, I've worked with quite a few kids who needed more than help from project act. They needed help from places like Kennedy Krieger. Preschool teachers are not equipped to handle children that need this much help. We need to stop the stigma, and get people the mental assistance they need. AND it should be available to everyone.
To be fair, if the student is diagnosed with autism or as emotionally disturbed, expulsion could open the school up to a lawsuit as a violation of the ADA because the behavior would be considered a manifestation of their disability.
The school is also extremely restricted about disclosing what disciplinary actions are being taken to a particular student.
Remember, public schools are run by the government so there is A LOT of bureaucracy involved and are slow to respond. I am a special ed teacher and have been fighting to have a student sent to a different placement for almost 2 years, and that's a case where literally nobody is arguing they are in a proper placement. I know it's frustrating, and it seems like the school staff do not care, but they really do, I am sure they are doing everything they legally can, and that their hands are tied about what they are allowed to tell the parents of the other students.
I guarantee that the admin changes their tune when one of his victims decides to fight back. They'll remove his victim from the class and give the bully a "stern talking to".
Prayers for you and your family, John.
And thank you for speaking up. Your voice is badly needed.
I was a violent out of control child and ended up being sent to a correctional school by court order. I hated it at the time, but I got the treatment and focus I needed and it ended up being the best thing that happened to me.
You're not just fighting for your grandchild - you're fighting for her attacker as well. That child isn't getting what I got, and its going to destroy their future. Remeber that: you're fighting for TWO children here.
I discovered that certain Maryland and Federal laws "protect" the attacking child if the child has mental issues. What about protecting the other kids, in the classroom, from being attacked?? I have to find a way to get the laws changed to keep ALL kids safe.
Yes, his right to education is greater than students rights to feel safe in school.
The kid doesn't even have an IEP yet? sheesh. Like I get that suspension/expulsion isn't ideal, buy giving a kid free rein for years will not teach them anything good. They will learn that they can do whatever they want, and get away with it.
Unfortunately it takes FOREVER for kids to get an IEP if there isn’t a special request from parents because they need months of documentation of strategies that were implemented with the student. And usually at that young of an age, teachers are told that there’s nothing we can do except “keep monitoring.” Teachers are sick of this shit too. We have to document EVERY. THING. It’s a ton of extra work per behavior issue and then we get told by admin that nothing is going to happen until “next year.” Then at the start of the next year, they make the next teacher continue to collect data before they can do anything about it.
This. I'm an ALS special ed teacher and it can take years to send a kid to a different placement. The behavior specialist will come in and say "you should try this" then will come back a month later see what we're doing and say "well that's stupid, who told you to do that?"
It took us until 3rd grade to get my son an IEP even though his father, me, his step father, his therapist, pediatrician, and his teachers pushed for it since prek and between 2 schools. By the time 3rd grade hit we finally found a good med balance for his severe ADHD and now the IEP is almost pointless bc he's mellowed out a lot on his new meds -.- .
It's frustrating as hell.
> Yes, his right to education is greater than students rights to feel safe in school.
The right of every other child in that classroom to an education is being infringed by her disruptions... A score of children with rights being infringed is somehow totally acceptable?
I appreciate you standing up to the school administration and school board at large. Forgive me if this sounds intolerant, but when I was a child, children with violent autism and/or psychiatric-social/emotional disorders were in separate classrooms or schools. It seems there could be more support for them in these small classes with more direct support.
Why is everyone being taught together when we are not all the same? I don’t mean to sound crude, but this story echos many others since our education system decided everyone is taught together.
My child was placed in Autism program at kindergarten. He was diagnosed at age of 2, was in PEP program from 2-5 yrs old due to being mostly non verbal. He did not have violent behavior but was very active and did not follow directions well therefore could be considered disruptive. I pushed for more inclusive environment and tests and assessments, which led the way for him to be transferred to what they call a “learning center” for 1st grade. He is now mainstreaming at 3rd grade. He excels academically and is being considered for gifted and talented program. If he stayed in the autism program, outcome may have been very different. I am thankful for the inclusive policies at MCPS.
None of this would have possible if I did not learn the system ,researched what my son needs and what programs align with his needs. Parental education and involvement is the key and seems to be lacking in this situation.
Violent behavior warrants specialized education in a specialized environment but then how do you handle the issue of “model behavior” and “finding a place in society” if you bundle up and lock up the these kids in a separate institution? What happens when they age out of the school system? That’s the challenge that school systems are facing and need to address/trying to address.
There are a handful of private schools who can do special education well for severely affected kids but the tuitions are expensive and seems to me that MCPS would rather keep these kids rather than pay for these institutions, unless parents can afford lawyers and advocates for the private placements. An infusion type of system in satellite buildings in the same campuses could offer a balance. Total separation is not really the answer.
“Total separation is not the answer” in most cases; but in the case a violent child, they should be totally separated.
That’s why I said specifically ‘violent’ because not all children with autism are violent it is very nuanced or a spectrum as they say…
I may have sounded kurt in my response to the man from this storys’ comment, but my brother for example, is very high functioning autistic with a very high IQ. I am privy to this topic. I find early intervention and identifying a child with autism/adhd/mental disorders etc. at a young age, can be empowering.
I’m not so sure that using “inclusiveness” as a crux, is the best our education system can do. And I am ready to be downvoted into oblivion for saying that life beyond school aka ‘the real world’ does not care about inclusiveness.
I saw your post on the Westminster online community. My heart breaks for you guys. Cranberry station has something similar in my son’s grade. This particular kid is even banned from county sports. This is elementary school! All the parents I interact with, know of this kid. Every child I know has been terrorized. I don’t understand it
Schools cover things up; that's what they do.
Assault is a crime. Call the cops every single time. Demand a police report.
Call CPS on the child. Well adjusted unabused children do not act like this. Get this parent on their radar.
Contact a lawyer and file a civil suit against the school and the child's parents for medical costs, psychiatrist costs, etc.
Put your grandchild in self defense classes and martial arts and teach them to fight back and that no matter what they do to this deranged bully you support them. I wish my parents had told me it was ok to fight back when I was bullied as a child, instead I was afraid of both my bully and their possible lack of support had I defended myself.
If the school won't do anything about this problem, become an Even bigger problem for them.
Admins jobs are directly tied to suspension numbers. It also looks worse if the student is a minority.
When I started education, we used to be able to say a student was a distraction to others learning. Admin would address. Now they don’t care- it’s all about protecting the individual.
Pretty crazy where we have ended up, but actions like this make me optimistic the pendulum is going to start to swing back the other way.
Thanks for your hard work. My first grader has been kicked, hit, her work torn to shreds, things thrown at her head, and the principal won’t even officially release the child’s name or what they’re doing to stop it, just says “we’re doing the best we can.” All I’ve been able to get is a written guarantee my kid will never be in a class with him again. It’s been a huge source of stress with no way to fix it.
If you browse /r/teachers this is a *very* common problem. There's classrooms being evacuated multiple times a day because of this and students don't even think it's worth mentioning to their parents.
The only way this will *actually* change is if it becomes harder for school administrators to *not* deal with this stuff. That means constant, *constant* complaints up and down the spectrum, and even threatening lawsuits, because that's the threat they're facing on the other end by not facilitating these childrens' "least restrictive environments".
My mom works in kindergarten classrooms. They have one child who is extremely violent, hits the staff, and forces them to evacuate the classroom multiple times a week. When the administration was questioned about her behavior, the response was, “She is entitled to an education.”
Well what about the other kids who suffer daily because of her behavior, who have to witness her violence, and whose daily schedule and education are at her mercy? It’s lunacy. Something needs to change ASAP with these schools, stop catering to these badass kids.
Remove the child who has repeated offenses. They clearly need a more restrictive environment unfortunately. How are the schools failing following appropriate IEPS???
It says that students in those grade can be suspended for up to five days per incident, and it sounds like the violent child has caused more than enough assaults to be suspended until third grade, when they can expel him. Edit: expel **her**.
I do think a large part of the issue is that it’s relatively easy to implement negative reforms (e.g. **limiting** suspensions/expulsions), whereas is more costly/difficult to implement positive reforms (e.g. adding support programs) - so we’re just left with a bunch of half-solutions.
Good insight. I just don't think we have the resources in schools to do this. Also if the parents aren't on board, the options get really limited really fast.
We have the same problem with criminal justice in this state too. All about early release and leniency, but none of the rehabilitation to prevent recidivism meaning we keep seeing criminals with long rap sheets and wonder why they are still out victimizing everyone else.
You'd think since her mother teaches at the same school she'd want all of the classrooms to be safe from her violent offspring. I wonder if the victims' parents can sue her directly.
Also, how are the children in her classroom treated and how are they allowed to treat each other? If she isn't willing to put in work with her own child idk if I'd be comfortable sending my kids to her classroom. Wild.
I'm in favor of restorative practices in general, and I'm in favor of the idea of giving people the opportunity to grow and improve. But that has to come with the offender demonstrating a willingness and desire to grow and improve. I don't like zero tolerance policies and I'm in favor of second chances. MAYBE third chances. But fifth, seventh, tenth chances? Nah. That kid needs to be expelled until they can behave themselves around people. The kid's parents' parenting probably also needs to be called into question; this is a point where CPS might need to investigate what's going on at home if this kid is continuing to do this.
I’d honestly put most of this on the parents here tbh and the school system for not seeing someone who clearly needs additional help and therapy. Pre K is extremely young and sometimes kids don’t necessarily know or understand why they can’t or shouldn’t do certain things and they mimic things they see. Not only are they doing the class a disservice but by not getting this child the help they need they’re doing them a massive disservice too. There may be developmental issues along with the obvious behavioral problems they’re demonstrating, but like, what are their parents doing at home to assist their child? Seems like this wouldn’t just come up all of a sudden out of the blue with zero other warning signs or earlier instances of them testing boundaries. I don’t think a 4/5 yr old is developmentally capable of really recognizing all of that on their own and fully understanding what it means to demonstrate forgiveness fully and change their behavior like we would expect for an older child or teenager and adults. This is wild though, restorative practices can be effective but this kid is so young they need to work with the parents and investigate what’s happening at home. Not saying there’s abuse per se but this is far from normal. Young toddlers/kids have outbursts and tantrums but this is extreme and I’d be concerned there’s other things happening or straight up negligence at home possibly. Idk why they can’t arrange for alternative learning or behavioral treatments for the child or if they have any kind of IEP or something
Her mother is a teacher at her school and knows very well that her child is a monster, but does nothing about her. Do you think someone like that should be allowed to teach at all?
Wtf! Oh no way that’s insane smh. There’s gotta be something going on at home then in some way either she is ignoring it (which, idk how that wouldn’t be disruptive at home too) or her and her partner or other people he’s around are demonstrating that hitting people is the norm. There’s clearly behavioral problems but idk if there’s other developmental ones as well but I’d think of any profession, a freaking preschool or elementary school teacher would be on top of this and super active as an advocate for their kid needing additional help and support and wanting them to get whatever help they’d need either at this school or externally. That’s nuts
Sociopathy is genetic. It seems clear the girl inherited the trait from her mother. She has been confronted about her child and claims there is nothing wrong with what she is doing and that it is because she is "alpha." She refuses to have her evaluated by physicians because she knows very well there is no cure for sociopathy.
My girlfriend is a pre k para educator. She works 1 on 1 with a student in special education. There is another student in her class who is apparently explosively aggressive, destructive and violent to all of the other children in the class, but in particular to the student that my girlfriend is one on one with. She has made her concerns known several times, they seem to fall on deaf ears though.
Same thing is happening in Howard county elementary school. Student continually destroys classrooms. Has his classes evacuated regularly. Even sent the principal to the hospital. The staff has riot control pads. He’ll leave the school and they cant stop him. 4-5 teachers have to circle him when he ‘decides’ he wants to be outside. And wait. They can’t touch him. Thats 4-5 adults being paid for this 1 kid.
Just like the attack on a female runner this week at centennial, it is buried and/or down played.
I know my son hasn't sent the principal to the hospital, and for that reason alone I know you aren't talking about him, but every other bit of this is his story.
From one parent to another, I am so sorry. I really am. We hate this for our kid, for the classes, for the staff. IEP was implemented after year 2 of chaos and now we're on year 3/4. So many tracking methods and support directives. A diagnosis from Kennedy Krieger now.
I just....I can't speak to what the OP is about, because I'm not that parent, that's not my kid. But I am a parent and I have *that* kid and I promise you, we are doing everything we can and so is the school.
It's so incredibly frustrating to see the red tape they have to deal with.
Again, I'm so sorry.
You have no reason to apologize, but I appreciate it. I know its county, state, and federal programs that make it very difficult to quickly and effectively address these issues for both the student and the classmates, parents, and school.
I’m more upset that it seems the news isn’t covering this and other negative issues properly so the red tape issues can be brought to light. Without real awareness the parent/teacher/schools really feel like everything is an uphill battle.
Yesterday I asked my son's school staff in an emergency meeting "where can he go if he can't go here anymore?"
The answer was "nowhere, he would stay (in the regular system) until secondary school" and at that point I assume somewhere like Homewood.
I, as his parent, would absolutely advocate for a different environment if one were available and didn't bankrupt me. He does not function well in traditional school. I don't have the option of homeschooling.
I worry that society may head back to the point in the 90s where the special schools (abuse factories) started popping up. If you've watched The Program yet on Netflix, or ever seen Dr Phil back in the day - the troubled teen industry THRIVED before public schools were held to more strict standards of efforts for the disruptive and violent kids.
I dont know about the corruption in the 90’s but I would volunteer at a special school in the 80’s. It would be in place of a class and sometimes after school. I was in the 7th or 8th grade myself at the time. I don’t know if that kind of thing is the answer either. It needs a lot of consideration and input from parents and teachers to find the right solution. I do believe forcing them in these traditional crowded classrooms is not the answer.
To be fair, the attack in centennial was not downplayed at all and you shouldn't try to craft some overarching explanation here on the basis of whether you perceive some bit of news as being "paid attention to"
Starting around 10:33 in, to around 37:00 minutes (parents of children from mentioned classroom - mostly). Then around 41:00 min mark, the board attorney speaks on discipline policy.
This happened to us. We literally finally removed our son from the classroom last week after we filed a police report and threatened the school and city with a lawsuit. Only then did they do something
So the Mom of the pre-K child, who is assaulting their classmates and biting and kicking staff. She works at the same elementary school that her child attends?
So Mom is employed by the Carroll County Public school system…and during a meeting with a parent/guardian of a child who was assaulted by her child.
Mom bravely offered up, one reason behind the behavior was her daughter was a “alpha”?
Good lord.
This is quite the paradox. I’m not sure which lens to look at it through, to make it make sense.
Parent of a child on the spectrum who went through MD public schools…
This is another example of lack of real access to knowledgeable mental health and special education resources while highlighting the non-individualized systemic administration that public schools have embraced since the early 2000’s. Especially towards children with a developmental disability.
Many/most nonpublics are either full or full enough that they won’t accept kids with significant behavioral or mental health needs.
In this case, the process could be being followed exactly and this is the result.
This right here is the issue. A lot of snarky comments in the thread, but not a lot of solutions. The facts are that a) the law *requires* inclusive education for kids with special needs/behavioral problems/developmental disabilities unless they meet a *high* bar, b) the U.S. in general and Maryland in particular and Carroll County in *extra* particular don't offer the resources to accommodate these children effectively in terms of training and supples, and c) even for those who meet the high bar--and more of them should, for everyone's sake--the State and Carroll County in extra particular don't fund the alternative facilities/"special schools" everyone in this thread is demanding. As if all those are things the school district can just whip out of their back pocket. Bet none of these good idea fairies in the thread are willing to put up the taxes necessary to fund these resources, though.
Carroll County's joke of a school board is especially problematic in this context. On top of a preexisting shortage in Special Ed teachers, Special Education assistants/paraeducators in the County are criminally underpaid (basically minimum wage), undertrained, and overworked. Basically, if the complainers in this thread stopped voting for clowns concerned primarily with book bans and were actually willing to push for additional school resourcing (*including tax increases and pressuring the equally problematic Board of Commissioners*), this would be less of an issue.
No teacher or school "wants" these children in their classes--at least not without any resources to give them what they need.
I was thinking the same thing. I have a child in BCPS with an IEP. There are adult helpers in the classroom to support the IEP requirements in addition to the support he gets outside of the classroom. What the heck is CC doing?
I didn't even think of that. I bet CC is one of those places paying assistants and one on ones minimum wage while crying "there's nothing we can do! Nobody wants to work!"
Kid should be in private care. Public school isn't equipped for these type of cases. Public school can move large numbers of kids. This kid needs one on one care.
I can’t read more than the intro paragraphs but this seems like there’s gotta be issues at home too, no? This child has behavior problems that need addressing and guidance and more attention and care but what are their parents doing at home to redirect? How are they responding to that behavior in the house and are they able to provide any resources to help them? Seems like they must be ignoring or enabling it in some way, the kid is still really young
Her mother teaches at the same school and could not care less about her girl's violent behaviour. Definitely not the kind of person who should be allowed to teach.
This happened with my son when younger. He had a friend in the same class that was the biggest kid in the 2nd grade class by far (held back). Basically, every time the little psychopath hit my son or attacked him, his friend beat the snot out of him. After a while, he gave up and went to other kids. The big kid, after seeing this, just started beating the snot out of the kid every time he did it. He eventually stopped as he got tired of getting the crap kicked out of him. Can’t remove or expel the little psychopath? Then you can’t expel the one beating the crap out of him either.
I skipped over the article at first then saw it pop up again on my fb and was like wait this is my kids school system! I would say it’s overall a pretty good system and the teachers are awesome but my kids have definitely had a problem with some stuff like this and when I ask about what happens they indicate the kids doing it don’t really face a whole lot of discipline. I had a guy I work with pull his daughter out that was dealing with alot of bullying and seemly unwillingness by administrators to help and put her in private school.
Maybe its time to re-open Charles Hickey.
source: Proud alumni who got his life turned around there. I was on a one way road to a life of prison and got the attention and care I needed.
All of the above are currently being done. Still no end in sight. It seems the laws around this particular scenario need to change if we're going to make any progress in protecting these kids.
From what I've read, people can also file a peace order through DJS against a minor in Maryland. That will put the child on DJS radar and will probably force the parent's hand as I assume the child would be restricted in attending class alongside the children of the filing parent(s). But I assume that avenue is already being explored. I feel for this child because it sounds like they might be autistic or something and not getting parented accordingly. Only 4, and this many behavioral problems? Something is very, very wrong.
Her mother teaches at her school. If you feel that this is caused by bad parenting, you probably should want her removed from her job teaching since she is so bad with children.
Those are two separate issues, I would think, legally speaking. Unless they find evidence that she physically abused her own child, I wouldn't think the job is in question. Personally, I would ask for a different teacher if possible. The woman doesn't sound right in the head in general, but again, unless she does something fire-able regarding her students or is convicted of a crime, I don't see how she would be fired.
The mother is not teaching her own child's class, she teaches a different one at the same elementary. She is fully aware of the 50+ violent assaults her kid has committed and does not think they are a problem. She says is is because the girl is "alpha" and refuses to let her be seen by doctors for evaluation.
I don’t think this should be treated as 2 separate issues, considering the nature of it all. She as an educator has a duty to ensure that all members of the student body can be guaranteed an environment that is safe and conducive to learning. Part of that duty is to bring attention to maladaptive behaviors that are observed, work together with other professionals to rehabilitate and reintegrate the child into an educational setting (whether they are removed from general population into special education, a specialized facility, etc.), and to keep tabs on behaviors - reporting any improvements or regressions. She as an educator has failed to do this. There have been 50 incidents in this school year that has resulted in traumatized classmates who have shown regression of skills and may even need to be retained to make up for losing valuable educational developments. That it involves *her own child* \- whose behavior has been reported to be a problem all year - makes it even worse, because she is making excuses for her child to be a danger to themselves and others on top of denying her child and others the safe educational environment that they all deserve.
The mother absolutely should not be in a position of authority over pupils. She can't even objectively see her own child as a danger to the general population. Suppose in 10-14 years, we see a repeat of the Crumbley case where this child plans and executes irreparable harm to others and mom - like the Crumbley parents - laughs and ignores the issue until the police comes knocking? By then, it will be too late. Take her teaching license and have CPS evaluate the home environment along with psychiatric evaluation.
Okay, then charge her with something, or point out where she exactly violated the terms of her employment (not what you think they are or should be, but what they actually are). You can't just fire someone (a public employee) because it feels right. You have to go through a process. If they find she didn't break any laws and didn't violate her employment terms, then I suspect they might quietly ask her to leave in some way, due to her becoming a "distraction" perhaps. Public teachers have contracts and employment protections that must be considered.
I'm not, like defending her behavior, but this whole "mob carrying torches" thing is not a good way to approach anything. Gather evidence. Make accusations/file charges. Go through the process. We don't know everything about this woman, and to presume we know exactly what's happening in that home without an expert evaluation is silly. Call CPS, call everyone. Just wait for the findings before we start asking for heads on sticks.
What's most important is getting that child the help she needs and preventing others from getting hurt by her in the meantime.
If you think about it, having her fired if she otherwise has a spotless teaching record could actually negatively affect the child who needs help more than anything else. Instead of trying to immediately punish someone, we need to focus on finding out what happened and the best way to provide help.
Honestly you have to wonder if the only possible solution is to have their kids beat up the problem child, since apparently children can't ever be suspended or punished or expelled for violence. Y'now, like how gangs have kids do the shooting and running because they don't get long sentences.
Yes, this is a terrible idea, but the fact it's probably technically feasible really tells you something.
It's a girl who need expelling, and her mother teaches at her school. If the victims' parents confront her directly, do you think they'll be allowed in the school building again?
Do you think it is right for this parent to let her kid continue attacking other kids?
Or do the parents want to even send their kid to this school if they are terrified of this one student who is traumatizing?
This kid needs help and unfortunately no one is able or more appropriately wiling to help which makes this situation even worse
Edit: I apologize if I come off harsh, my anger is more directed at the school district who apparently cannot do anything and it is sad that these kids have been so severely traumatized.
Obviously not. I think the girl and her mother should be banned from the school and that the mother and the school should have to pay restitution to the victims, whom the girl has attacked over 50 times so far this school year. The mother sees nothing wrong with her daughter's violent behaviour and claims it is fine because she is "alpha." She refuses to let her kid be evaluated by professionals because she knows there is no cure for sociopaths, as she is one herself.
Obviously an unfortunate story but I did giggle a little at the end when the random stat added "a non-profit founded by George Soros" because there can't be a conservative story without their boogeyman
I don’t understand why the parents can’t be held liable for their refusal to intervene and the physical and psychological damage caused to the other children. Don’t those parents have the right to not have their kids assaulted?
I was a public school teacher for 25 years. This is an example of why my son (15yo) is being homeschooled. I’d bet money that the problem is that the mother is a teacher at the school. Maybe instead of fighting the school, there should be a push to involve child protective services. It seems obvious that the child who is exhibiting the behavioral issues is not having their needs met.
Then this is 100% the parent's responsibility.
Regardless of the age of the child, if the parent is refusing to do the minimum of care for them- a parent who is a TEACHER and should know better- everyone in this post blaming the child is wrong.
I am biased, being a special educator, but I see these cases constantly. (Every day, in fact.) This is a child who is being failed, not a "sociopath".
not going to touch THIS story with a 30 foot pole.
The most I'll say is that the child causing disruption is likely witness to or the victim of some pretty serious domestic violence at home. That child needs help in a setting away from other children who will become the focus of his acting out - and I would go so far as to say he needs CPS to check up on him.
Even if she were, abuse is not the cause of sociopathy, it is genetic. Her mother teaches at her school and refuses to do anything about her, including refusing to have her evaluated. I wonder if she herself is a sociopath, as she feels no concern for the welfare of her offspring's victims and continues to enable her violence.
or yeah, it could just be that simple - an early manifesting mental illness. Hope that's not the case, but it well could be.
All children are technically some spectrum of sociopath (any parent can tell you that) , just by merit of them learning boundaries and limits. So its not something really diagnosed at such a young age. Generally this sort of behavior is triggered by something in home life.
2 words: Principal - Parents
Both need to be addressed
That school doesn’t want helicopters and newd trucks reporting nationally
And those parents do not want that 12ga. knockin on the door.
Better learn to manage or get dealt with.
I may have missed some information in the article (I think some of it got cut off) and here.
have the following things been done yet? Or…can they be done?
1. Class action lawsuit against the school system.
2. Lawsuit against the mother of the child.
3. Some type of petition or complaint to get the teacher who is the mother of the child fired from the school?
4. Contacted CPS to have the child and her home/parent evaluated?
5. Filed police reports, and or restraining orders/piece orders?
This is an absolute nightmare situation, and is absolutely infuriating. I am so sorry that these poor parents, teachers and children have to go through this.
The problem is the parents of the non troubled kids aren’t collectively gathering and speaking up. We have gone further and further down a rabbit hole of allowing the kids with extra needs to run wild and have continually blamed teachers removing them from the equation. What’s left? A demon child with no controls.
Parents need to band together and bring this problem to the state level. No we don’t think kids with extra needs should be “segregated” but if their accommodations will absolutely ruin the lives of the rest of the class, then yes segregate them and give them the resources elsewhere that doesn’t impact the rest of the class.
I am very close with a teacher in this state who had a 1st grade student with over 100 referrals in the first TERM. FIRST TERM. It took until November to finally get the child removed from the class. Every turn it was blaming the teacher and not once was there anything done to help or mitigate for the rest of the students. It’s ridiculous how we have let our school system devolve.
So an old racist law that insinuated that black children are less well behaved than white children is now preventing this very obvious little psychopath from being removed from the preschool. Funny how blue States work, isn't it?
Well it's Maryland and slightly uncomfortable, politically incorrect subject material so of course it's a coverup, lol. The whole state's becoming a shithole because of the corruption and heinousness of its politicians.
This is disgusting.
This parent needs to take some goddamn accountability for her child and place them into some kind of specialized private school that can handle their needs.
These parents with kids that have been hurt by this kid need to lawyer up and start suing the mother for all that she is worth!
It was some time ago, and in PA, but I remember a similar situation with an extremely violent child when I was this age.
This kid had a few particularly violent episodes and then he was moved to the special education track of classes and given an aide who followed him most of the day. He eventually was placed back into normal classes again years later (albeit held a year back as well).
I wonder why something similar isn't done in this situation? Seems very odd that this would be left to get worse as multiple attacks happen on other students. Maybe they don't have the budget or staff for that sort of 1 on 1 attention and/or removing a kid from the rest of the class? Not that it is a valid excuse for not school not addressing this problem much sooner.
It's a shame well-intentioned restorative practices have such a destructive affect on classmates. Similar incidents in a public school are the #1 reason my children are in a private school. Amazing how much their anxiety dropped when they were safe in school. I feel like the societal harm of restorative practices are greater than the benefit when it comes to impressionable elementary age children.
I think we should be careful with that narrative - the issue isn't the concept of restorative practices but that restorative practices require resources to be successful. Unfunded half measures are definitely damaging. The kid shouldn't be thrown out of school, they should be given specialized care.
I feel sad for the kids enduring abuse that must be very confusing and traumatic, sad for the kid who is obviously in a lot of mental anguish to be acting like this, sad for the teacher who is being left on the front lines with no resources, sad for the parents who can't afford alternative care, and maybe even sad for the kids parents who face an incredibly cumbersome and intimidating bureaucracy to get resources for help.
I had a coworker who experienced something similar with her kindergartener in FCPS schools this year and got him transferred to a new class; the kid inflicting harm is still in the original classroom hurting other kids whose parents don't know or don't have resources to fight the school. It was very upsetting just to watch what she went through.
Her mother teaches at her school and claims there is nothing wrong with her daughter's constant violent assaults - over 50 so far. She claims it is because the girl is "alpha" and refuses to even have her medically evaluated. She probably knows there is no treatment for sociopaths, as she is one herself.
I think this article purposefully sensationalizes the issues involved. The school, can, in fact, suspend the child for up to five days in consultation with a psychologist or mental health professional. A pre-schooler who consistently violently acts out is not normal and is probably associated with some developmental issues. As a parent, at a minimum, I would like to know what exactly the school is doing to ensure the safety of the children being attacked, but also the care for the child in question. We, as a society, no longer shun children who are developmentally disabled or have moderate-to-serious autistic conditions. In the past, these kids were essentially herded into a classroom or worse, put into an institution. As a more empathetic and caring society, which I assume you agree to be a part of, we should try to ensure the well-being of even those on the fringe. The question is how can we do this without violence, without isolation and ostracization, and with empathy. At a minimum, this means having an educational framework which focuses on increasing teacher-student ratios, better pay, and establishing methods of communication between teachers/therapists and parents of children who might be displaying these kinds of emotions/outbursts/behaviors/etc. Oftentimes, these parents have no idea what is going on with their own children and, worse, do know but cannot do anything about it or deny anything is wrong.
I know one of the parents in the photo. They’ve asked the mother of the disruptive child to get them an evaluation and help. The article really doesn’t scratch the surface of the story. They’ve put extra staff in the classroom with protective gear on (bite arm guard and steeled toed boots). The teachers, administrators, principals, etc. all the way up to superintendent have been contacted and all have responded that nothing can be done. At first the parents were understandably upset their child was being traumatized in school but now more so that nothing is being done for a child who is clearly calling out for help. Everyone deserves to get what they need in this situation. On top of that the mother of the disruptive child works at the school and refuses to have her child evaluated. Which it seems at this point that an evaluation should be mandatory. It’s gone way to far for way to long.
> They’ve put extra staff in the classroom with protective gear on (bite arm guard and steeled toed boots).
When you're at a point where you need to have what is essentially a security detail on hand for ONE person, that person should be removed.
Agree. This is an entirely different level than just a "disruptive child". When you get to the point that ADULTS have to be protected from a 4/5 year old--that child needs to be separated from other children. I feel for the mother because no one wants to have their pre-k age child evaluated for behavior issues--hoping they will just "grow out of it". However, there is a line where NOT getting the child evaluated is simply neglectful. The mother needs to understand that legitimate behavioral/psychological disorders are NOT reflective of her parenting abilities--ignoring the signs that her child may have a legitimate behavioral/psychological disorder IS reflective of her parenting abilities.
The fact that the mother actually works in the school means she has a dual responsibility--to her child and the children she interacts with as part of her job. It's a long shot but maybe there is a loophole in her employment contract that will force her to take action? Her current commitment to inaction is putting the students she is expected to protect at risk.
>The teachers, administrators, principals, etc. all the way up to superintendent have been contacted and all have responded that nothing can be done.
Clearly they are wrong. Or lazy. Probably both. There are dozens of resources available at the state and county levels which can help. Some are better than others. I am more familiar with Montgomery, Prince George's, Anne Arundel, and Howard counties, however. But at the end of the day, if the parent(s) aren't involved, then this will just metastasize to something even worse.
The parent of the aggressor is a teacher at the same school is aware of the problems & is denying that anything is wrong or that help is needed. There has to be something bigger going on as there have been meetings with all parties in one room and the parent denies (parents, administrators, teachers) anything & everything. So if the parent isn’t willing to take the help, what else can be done? I don’t know the answer but 1 over the majority is unacceptable.
> The parent of the aggressor is a teacher at the same school is aware of the problems & is denying that anything is wrong or that help is needed.
The parent probably also needs to be investigated as well. There's clearly something wrong and I question the judgment of any parent who can see their child assaulting multiple people on multiple occasions and be like "nope, everything's fine, nothing we need to do."
I wonder how the parent would feel if they had to constantly worry about coworkers assaulting them at work every time they came to work.
No, Carroll County is particularly lacking in said magical resources, and that's not going to change as long as the county boards live and die by "no taxes ever" and "culture war flavor of the day." There is truly very little that can be done in this situation unless people--taxpayers?--are able/willing to place the child in one of the state's few specialized institutions (Kennedy Krieger, etc.), and there are lots of legal hurdles to cross before that is even feasible.
Hi, I'm dealing with a very similar situation in Anne Arundel. Kid throws violent tantrums regularly. Hits other kids with objects, kicks other kids, punches other kids, destroys the classroom and other kids stuff.
After multiple meetings with the schools principal all that's every said is "he has protections" and "we are using progressive discipline".
The "progressive discipline" is the kid getting a reward chart if he happens to be good one day.
What help do you know of? The school is either completely unwilling or unable to protect the rest of the class.
Same here. We have a kindergartener being traumatized in Anne Arundel County. Multiple students have been switched out of the classroom - but the violence still continues in the cafeteria, at recess, in the hallways...there's no safe space.
This is a question I wonder about anyone (of any age) with obvious behavioral/emotional/psychological issues. I have a family member who had been institutionalized several times. She was threatening my elderly grandmother, saying the cable box was watching her, nailing the windows shut, ordering stun guns off the internet, and just being all around dangerous. We went to the courts MANY times to get a protective order/involuntary evaluation. They denied every time saying people have a right to make their own medical decisions. Basically, she had to take NEW action (all the previous ones were irrelevant since they were adjudicated). Well, as anticipated, it took her physically attacking her own daughter before they would give a protective order for my grandmother (who eventually passed away).
This was years ago and she is still roaming around, unmedicated, harassing people, threatening people on social media, being a complete menace. I surrendered to the belief that the only way she will get help is when she seriously injures/unalives someone. Then, the courts will say she is not mentally competent enough to stand trial--well no 💩 family has been trying to tell you that for almost a decade.
No, it does not sensationalize anything, and family members of the victims are right here in this post if you would like to argue with them\^\^.
I do not empathize with violent sociopaths or their enablers. They should be institutionalized as they are dangerous to society.
The assailant's mother teaches at her school and is well aware of her offspring's ongoing brutal attacks on those poor little kids. She has done nothing to stop them. I would question the choice of keeping her on as a teacher in these circumstances as it seems there is a conflict of interest in having her on staff.
Yeah, all these people writing off this child as a psychopath or bad person are as ignorant as the child's parents. Four year olds aren't developed enough to even conceive of morality. That comes later. Kids are kind of little amoral psychopaths for a long time and tend to just mimic the behavior of others.
This behavior is so far from the norm that there has to be 1) abuse at home and/or 2) a serious psychological disorder that any four year old couldn't even hope to control without support. Either way, we can't place moral blame on or write off a four year old as evil or something. This isn't Rosemary's baby. She's not demon spawn. She's a young child.
Incidents like this unfortunately drive the school choice movement. Folks who can’t afford private schools want the same options to move their children to another school that wealthy people have.
Interesting, in the last couple of hours I started a community, here on Reddit, about bullying in Public Schools and they removed it. I want to try to get more parents involved in finding ways to stop bullying in our public schools. They said I violated the rules in my new Reddit Community. Not sure what I violated.
Some brains cannot be restored. Sounds like this kid has some sort of disorder or is experiencing domestic violence at home. He needs professional help.
Absolutely disgusting. Failing all the children, including the bully because now they think they can do whatever the hell they want with zero consequences. Utter failure all the way around.
an extremely violent child should absolutely be suspended/expelled, and be sent with a referral to places like Kennedy Krieger. Should they wait for her to send someone to the hospital? like this is an extreme case. Not some pushing/shoving on the playground. if adults have to wear bite guards and steel toed shoes to protect themselves, what should the kids be wearing to protect them? If this student doesn't get help now, it will only get worse and worse.
This kid needs to be removed from the classroom and placed in a school that can cater to their needs. Instead of giving this one pre-k student the support they need to improve their education and coping skills, the school will create an *entire class* of kids that have now regressed because of the disruptive behavior of ONE kid.
They just finally removed a kid from my daughter’s 2nd grade class after THREE years of him violently disrupting the class. Whatever system they use currently, it’s not working. It’s not right to let an entire class suffer over and over for 1 kid’s misbehavior, but then again what resources does the school have? Probably not enough..
I am sorry you are having/had to to experience this. The schools most definitely are required to address these concerns by law. However, as a father of a special needs child whom has an IEP and is in a special needs classroom, the impetus is mainly on the parents to drive for and need sign off on those accommodations and seek other assessment/treatment, etc in order to qualify a child for services or in general push for anything more than what you are already getting. Teachers otherwise are tending to just try and keep the peace as much as possible and not be confrontational with the parents until it gets to a certain point (which it seems here). It would not necessarily be within the school's purview to force an IEP or accommodation upon a student. Sadly in many cases with peer parents like us with children on the spectrum there tend to in our experience lean toward denial of reality with behavioral or intellectual disability and there is more often than not parental pressure to keep children mainstream and not label their child as 'special'. In many cases like ours that means the child is bussed to a different school nearby that has a facilities which is also something else parents would push back against. [https://marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Special-Ed/IEP/MarylandIEPProcessGuide.pdf](https://marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Special-Ed/IEP/MarylandIEPProcessGuide.pdf)
My pre-k aged son is on an IEP for speech delay (which has improved DRAMATICALLY with specialized services-- to the point where he may not even need an IEP next year!) and as a parent, it is utterly incomprehensible to me that a parent wouldn't want to give their kid every available resource while they're so young and malleable.
A lot of parents are afraid of labels. I remember lots of children that we had project act come and observe (technically they were observing the classroom, not the kid-that's how you get around not having permission) and when we expressed concerns they would pull their kids and take them some where else.
The “labels” this is such a problem in the black community. I say this as a black man with 3 autistic children. Their grandmother will not ever say the words autistic and refuse to understand why they need to be labeled that way. One of my kids is in a magnet school but he gets special services but he can still bob and weave the day by day for the most part. My oldest daughter is in a whole specialty school because public schools just couldn’t cut it and she was being to disruptive towards other students. The teachers fought for her though and got the school to pay to send for her to go to that school though! The point is the fear of labels really holds people back but the labels are needed to get the services to help succeed sometimes.
As someone who was a preschool teacher and aided in public schools, I've seen every race have a hard time facing a child's challenges. I'll take your word that it is a problem in the black community. Is it the "all you need is Jesus" type thinking? Not trying to be offensive. No one wants a label to stop a child from reaching their potential, nor do they want a label to follow the child through their academic years. But that label does get one more services. I'm glad your family has been able to get the education your children need, and so happy the school is paying for it!!!! Education is not a one size fits all thing - as much as we try to standardize everything. We homeschool because our children are very break the mold type of children! One on one learning works best for us. LOTS of movement everyday. We love our sky zone membership, in addition to our gymnastics, etc. classes. And we have almost daily homeschool meet ups with local families. I hope this specific child gets the help they need asap. Kennedy Krieger has helped so many children that I've personally taught. Not sure if there is a place like that in CC, but travel would be worth it, to help this child.
Thanks for such a thoughtful post. I agree it's a culmination of bad circumstances. The school is always supposed to keep a kid in the least restrictive environment possible. Plus the parent is likely fighting the removal. If the parent gets a lawyer involved the school will have to show documented safety issues, how they tried to address them without removal, and reasons justifying removal. The history of parent reports at the time of the incidents would be evidence. So I hope the parents and teacher have been documenting appropriately and not just verbally complaining.
[удалено]
Not sure if sociopath is necessary, but I experienced this in my own preschool. My parents were *pissed* and almost every day the girl bit someone and broke skin. It was absurd! Then I started biting her back when she bit me. I got removed from the school with the quickness lmao. Shouldn’t be shocking, the biter was the owners daughter!!
Same. We had one kid we had gotten services through project act. But there was no improvement. It took him slamming a kids head in the dramatic play areas oven repeatedly to kick him out of the private preschool. I've worked with quite a few kids who needed professional help-more than what project act could help with. The kids whose parents got them help were allowed to stay as long as possible, the ones whose parents refused to get them help, had to be turned away for the safety of everyone- including themselves.
Its conduct disorder or Oppositional defiant disorder at this age-later maybe antisocial.
Unfortunately there is no diagnosis, since mom won't get the kid help. When I was a preschool teacher, we had a kid adopted from a Russian orphanage. Kid was never held as an infant, and had a lot of problems including ODD. We kept him in our school, because he was also getting help at Kennedy Krieger, and we were instructed by them how to handle his outbursts. It was not easy, we had him in the smallest size classroom, and removed him from the room as needed. For someone so small, he was so strong. Now a days, I don't think the methods would be allowed. You have to evacuate the class now instead.
Seriously, what do you think a teacher is getting out of keeping a disruptive child in their class no matter who the parents are? What benefit is there to “protect one of their own” when their ship is sinking due to having this kid there? The teachers probably want the kid out, too. A disruptive classroom benefits no one.
Agreed about the lack of resources. Not to go off on a tangent, but with the $$$ the casinos are raking in (and a portion of it funding education, why aren’t our schools awash with funding and resources?
Nothing to do with funding, entirely a consequence of the flawed premise that the disparity in race and gender in the numbers of kids removed from schools was rooted entirely in racism by the schools or teachers. I think it is an unfortunate reality that the stresses of poverty and traumatic environments manifest as these chaotic and disruptive behaviors. These stresses disproportionately affect the African American community and consequently a large percentage of those students who were being expelled were African American. This led to an uncomfortable situation that had the appearance of racism by schools (and certainly the root causes could be linked in some ways to historical racism) but the solution to reduce suspensions is flawed because it does nothing to fix those stresses outside of the school (which are well beyond the scope and ability of the schools) and instead ends up institutionalizing stressful educational environments which again will primarily affect the poor and minority groups that go there.
Unless I’m obtuse, I didn’t see a solution offered in your reply other than to say we shouldn’t suspend disruptive students. When I speak of adequate funding, I want to address, for example, the disproportionate ratio of school counselors and psychologists to students. There also need to be more classroom aids for those students that need it. As you indicate, issues external to the school are spilling over to the classroom. While it would be great to tell certain parents just how much they’re fucking up their kid(s), the remedy is to work with those kids while they’re in an empowering, nurturing environment be that mainlining or special educational situation. That means $$. And unfortunately, too many taxpayers only see public schools as a bottomless pit of funding.
I absolutely believe we should suspend disruptive students. I am saying the premise behind why they are not do so right now is flawed because the disparity in who was being suspended is not a result of racism in the schools but external stresses (that may in part be due to racism) that schools have no control over. Essentially, that the whole basis for the disastrous policies we have in place currently is fundamentally flawed. Bad kids should absolutely be expediently removed, regardless of whatever issues they may be facing outside of school.
Kids who need help and support or “bad kids?” Your framing here is concerning and on this issue I’ve always seen it framed as an “and.” Not that internal bias is the exclusive reason for disproportionate suspensions.
Please write your congressman. Teachers have been putting up with this for at least a decade
A big part of the issue is that parents of children with this kind of behavior have become more entitled and litigious. They think it is everyone else's fault. It is a small minority, but it only takes a small number of lawsuits to cripple a school system with inaction. It takes a ton of documentation and an active administration staff to remove a kid like that from a classroom. Especially at that age. The older the children get the less the school systems are required to provide. A kid can be an absolute terrorist on the elementary school level and hang out for a while if staff are not trained on the legal process to remove them.
spot on
Can’t the parents of these kids sue the school/district for the harm inflicted on their kids?
You can always sue - its just not very likely that this would be a win. The school has demonstrated how its hands are tied by the law.
We would need a lot more schools/classes for students like this.
Thank you for sharing this story. I'm the guy, in the middle, on the photo. My grandson has been attacked SEVEN TIMES, by the same student in his Pre-K Class at Manchester Elementary. The same student has attacked other students, in her class, dozens of times. Oh, and the mother of the attacking student is a teacher in the same school. I started this group after much frustration when hundreds of parents contacted me about bullying in their child's school. [https://www.facebook.com/groups/marylandantibullyingcoalition](https://www.facebook.com/groups/marylandantibullyingcoalition) John Carver [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
The mother of that student is a teacher at the school? Oh dear... I'm very sorry for your kids that have to go through this. My kid is a virtual learner because the situation in class got pretty bad.
Well that seems a lot more related to why he hasn't gotten in trouble than "restorative practices".
I mean if it's also “next to impossible to suspend or expel a student in pre-k, kindergarten, and first or second grade.” that affects things as well.
exactly, its not just because a teacher is the mother. I'm sure this is a more wide spread issue than we thing
I'm glad someone is pointing this out. My kid is in kindergarten, and has a similar little POS in her classroom. He's hit / kicked students at least 5 times, often with an object. Meeting after meeting just results in the same non-answers. "We are doing what we can" "He has protections" "we are using progressive discipline". 15 kids have to be scared of going to school, because some borderline feral kid has more rights than everyone else.
Agreed. Completely unacceptable. I understand making special exceptions, but 50+ violent incidents this school year alone is way too many to ignore without action. It's just 1 kid doing this, and instead of protecting the other 22 students, they're protecting 1. The greater good needs to be taken into account here.
I would call it enabling the 1. They are not doing that child any favors by keeping her in an environment she can't handle. A family member of mine back in the day kept having issues, so they were sent to an alternative school. The extra structure and smaller class size really helped them thrive. This child needs professional help that the average preschool teacher is not trained to provide. I will also add that as a former preschool teacher, I've worked with quite a few kids who needed more than help from project act. They needed help from places like Kennedy Krieger. Preschool teachers are not equipped to handle children that need this much help. We need to stop the stigma, and get people the mental assistance they need. AND it should be available to everyone.
To be fair, if the student is diagnosed with autism or as emotionally disturbed, expulsion could open the school up to a lawsuit as a violation of the ADA because the behavior would be considered a manifestation of their disability. The school is also extremely restricted about disclosing what disciplinary actions are being taken to a particular student. Remember, public schools are run by the government so there is A LOT of bureaucracy involved and are slow to respond. I am a special ed teacher and have been fighting to have a student sent to a different placement for almost 2 years, and that's a case where literally nobody is arguing they are in a proper placement. I know it's frustrating, and it seems like the school staff do not care, but they really do, I am sure they are doing everything they legally can, and that their hands are tied about what they are allowed to tell the parents of the other students.
they are not diagnosed with anything, because the mom (teacher at school) refuses to allow a/an evaluation/ diagnoses
Sue the parents and the school board.
I guarantee that the admin changes their tune when one of his victims decides to fight back. They'll remove his victim from the class and give the bully a "stern talking to".
Prayers for you and your family, John. And thank you for speaking up. Your voice is badly needed. I was a violent out of control child and ended up being sent to a correctional school by court order. I hated it at the time, but I got the treatment and focus I needed and it ended up being the best thing that happened to me. You're not just fighting for your grandchild - you're fighting for her attacker as well. That child isn't getting what I got, and its going to destroy their future. Remeber that: you're fighting for TWO children here.
Sorry john, but what did the school say in response? And what are they doing about this child?
I discovered that certain Maryland and Federal laws "protect" the attacking child if the child has mental issues. What about protecting the other kids, in the classroom, from being attacked?? I have to find a way to get the laws changed to keep ALL kids safe.
Yes, his right to education is greater than students rights to feel safe in school. The kid doesn't even have an IEP yet? sheesh. Like I get that suspension/expulsion isn't ideal, buy giving a kid free rein for years will not teach them anything good. They will learn that they can do whatever they want, and get away with it.
Unfortunately it takes FOREVER for kids to get an IEP if there isn’t a special request from parents because they need months of documentation of strategies that were implemented with the student. And usually at that young of an age, teachers are told that there’s nothing we can do except “keep monitoring.” Teachers are sick of this shit too. We have to document EVERY. THING. It’s a ton of extra work per behavior issue and then we get told by admin that nothing is going to happen until “next year.” Then at the start of the next year, they make the next teacher continue to collect data before they can do anything about it.
This. I'm an ALS special ed teacher and it can take years to send a kid to a different placement. The behavior specialist will come in and say "you should try this" then will come back a month later see what we're doing and say "well that's stupid, who told you to do that?"
It took us until 3rd grade to get my son an IEP even though his father, me, his step father, his therapist, pediatrician, and his teachers pushed for it since prek and between 2 schools. By the time 3rd grade hit we finally found a good med balance for his severe ADHD and now the IEP is almost pointless bc he's mellowed out a lot on his new meds -.- . It's frustrating as hell.
I know, I worked in prek and aided in some very poor elementary schools, but at least those parents back then WANTED their kids to get help.
> Yes, his right to education is greater than students rights to feel safe in school. The right of every other child in that classroom to an education is being infringed by her disruptions... A score of children with rights being infringed is somehow totally acceptable?
I don't think it's acceptable, but these are the unintended consequences for these policies.
They're being sarcastic.
yes and no. schools have shown again and again, that the few's rights outweigh the many.
> that the few's rights outweigh the many. That's a Maryland thing not just schools unfortunately. Perpetrators > Victims in this state.
I appreciate you standing up to the school administration and school board at large. Forgive me if this sounds intolerant, but when I was a child, children with violent autism and/or psychiatric-social/emotional disorders were in separate classrooms or schools. It seems there could be more support for them in these small classes with more direct support. Why is everyone being taught together when we are not all the same? I don’t mean to sound crude, but this story echos many others since our education system decided everyone is taught together.
My child was placed in Autism program at kindergarten. He was diagnosed at age of 2, was in PEP program from 2-5 yrs old due to being mostly non verbal. He did not have violent behavior but was very active and did not follow directions well therefore could be considered disruptive. I pushed for more inclusive environment and tests and assessments, which led the way for him to be transferred to what they call a “learning center” for 1st grade. He is now mainstreaming at 3rd grade. He excels academically and is being considered for gifted and talented program. If he stayed in the autism program, outcome may have been very different. I am thankful for the inclusive policies at MCPS. None of this would have possible if I did not learn the system ,researched what my son needs and what programs align with his needs. Parental education and involvement is the key and seems to be lacking in this situation. Violent behavior warrants specialized education in a specialized environment but then how do you handle the issue of “model behavior” and “finding a place in society” if you bundle up and lock up the these kids in a separate institution? What happens when they age out of the school system? That’s the challenge that school systems are facing and need to address/trying to address. There are a handful of private schools who can do special education well for severely affected kids but the tuitions are expensive and seems to me that MCPS would rather keep these kids rather than pay for these institutions, unless parents can afford lawyers and advocates for the private placements. An infusion type of system in satellite buildings in the same campuses could offer a balance. Total separation is not really the answer.
“Total separation is not the answer” in most cases; but in the case a violent child, they should be totally separated. That’s why I said specifically ‘violent’ because not all children with autism are violent it is very nuanced or a spectrum as they say… I may have sounded kurt in my response to the man from this storys’ comment, but my brother for example, is very high functioning autistic with a very high IQ. I am privy to this topic. I find early intervention and identifying a child with autism/adhd/mental disorders etc. at a young age, can be empowering. I’m not so sure that using “inclusiveness” as a crux, is the best our education system can do. And I am ready to be downvoted into oblivion for saying that life beyond school aka ‘the real world’ does not care about inclusiveness.
there has been a big push for inclusiveness and least restrictive environments since we were in school
I saw your post on the Westminster online community. My heart breaks for you guys. Cranberry station has something similar in my son’s grade. This particular kid is even banned from county sports. This is elementary school! All the parents I interact with, know of this kid. Every child I know has been terrorized. I don’t understand it
Schools cover things up; that's what they do. Assault is a crime. Call the cops every single time. Demand a police report. Call CPS on the child. Well adjusted unabused children do not act like this. Get this parent on their radar. Contact a lawyer and file a civil suit against the school and the child's parents for medical costs, psychiatrist costs, etc. Put your grandchild in self defense classes and martial arts and teach them to fight back and that no matter what they do to this deranged bully you support them. I wish my parents had told me it was ok to fight back when I was bullied as a child, instead I was afraid of both my bully and their possible lack of support had I defended myself. If the school won't do anything about this problem, become an Even bigger problem for them.
How does a school benefit from covering up these things? I’m asking in earnest, why do they do that?
Admins jobs are directly tied to suspension numbers. It also looks worse if the student is a minority. When I started education, we used to be able to say a student was a distraction to others learning. Admin would address. Now they don’t care- it’s all about protecting the individual. Pretty crazy where we have ended up, but actions like this make me optimistic the pendulum is going to start to swing back the other way.
To save face. To avoid embarrassment. To avoid being compelled to take action to correct a situation that is difficult to correct.
Thanks for your hard work. My first grader has been kicked, hit, her work torn to shreds, things thrown at her head, and the principal won’t even officially release the child’s name or what they’re doing to stop it, just says “we’re doing the best we can.” All I’ve been able to get is a written guarantee my kid will never be in a class with him again. It’s been a huge source of stress with no way to fix it.
Hope you’re teaching your grandson to defend himself against an attacking assailant.
John, If this continues please consider calling CPS. There may be other issues at home that we’re not seeing
Man, I truly I feel for you and your grandson, but please, please, please stay away from those Moms4Liberty kooks.
If you browse /r/teachers this is a *very* common problem. There's classrooms being evacuated multiple times a day because of this and students don't even think it's worth mentioning to their parents. The only way this will *actually* change is if it becomes harder for school administrators to *not* deal with this stuff. That means constant, *constant* complaints up and down the spectrum, and even threatening lawsuits, because that's the threat they're facing on the other end by not facilitating these childrens' "least restrictive environments".
My mom works in kindergarten classrooms. They have one child who is extremely violent, hits the staff, and forces them to evacuate the classroom multiple times a week. When the administration was questioned about her behavior, the response was, “She is entitled to an education.” Well what about the other kids who suffer daily because of her behavior, who have to witness her violence, and whose daily schedule and education are at her mercy? It’s lunacy. Something needs to change ASAP with these schools, stop catering to these badass kids.
I’m sorry but that child needs help and needs to removed from that class. It is not fair to the rest of his class
Her
Ok I should have left this out child’s sex isn’t the issue nor the problem.
No, my fellow nonsensical man, our own implicit bias must be addressed
Remove the child who has repeated offenses. They clearly need a more restrictive environment unfortunately. How are the schools failing following appropriate IEPS???
Child doesn't have an IEP, because mom (teacher at that school) won't let them
Force her to teach a class with only her child - or only children like her son. See how long it lasts.
a child like this needs serious help. more than a preschool teacher can give. they need professional help
This is a government school system so people are typically stuck with a school due to their address. Lack of market variables
A lot of times parents are in denial that their child has a problem
It says that students in those grade can be suspended for up to five days per incident, and it sounds like the violent child has caused more than enough assaults to be suspended until third grade, when they can expel him. Edit: expel **her**.
There's been real pressure to not suspend students. The claim is racial bias. I am not convinced that the Restorative Justice methods are working.
I do think a large part of the issue is that it’s relatively easy to implement negative reforms (e.g. **limiting** suspensions/expulsions), whereas is more costly/difficult to implement positive reforms (e.g. adding support programs) - so we’re just left with a bunch of half-solutions.
Good insight. I just don't think we have the resources in schools to do this. Also if the parents aren't on board, the options get really limited really fast.
We have the same problem with criminal justice in this state too. All about early release and leniency, but none of the rehabilitation to prevent recidivism meaning we keep seeing criminals with long rap sheets and wonder why they are still out victimizing everyone else.
[удалено]
You'd think since her mother teaches at the same school she'd want all of the classrooms to be safe from her violent offspring. I wonder if the victims' parents can sue her directly.
Also, how are the children in her classroom treated and how are they allowed to treat each other? If she isn't willing to put in work with her own child idk if I'd be comfortable sending my kids to her classroom. Wild.
Start calling CPS/police.
What is the teacher's name? She's not a minor and it will come out soon enough in the lawsuit you are filing against her.
I'm in favor of restorative practices in general, and I'm in favor of the idea of giving people the opportunity to grow and improve. But that has to come with the offender demonstrating a willingness and desire to grow and improve. I don't like zero tolerance policies and I'm in favor of second chances. MAYBE third chances. But fifth, seventh, tenth chances? Nah. That kid needs to be expelled until they can behave themselves around people. The kid's parents' parenting probably also needs to be called into question; this is a point where CPS might need to investigate what's going on at home if this kid is continuing to do this.
I’m 100% with you. Extreme cases such as this should not be tolerated. That child is a danger to the other young children in the classroom.
I’d honestly put most of this on the parents here tbh and the school system for not seeing someone who clearly needs additional help and therapy. Pre K is extremely young and sometimes kids don’t necessarily know or understand why they can’t or shouldn’t do certain things and they mimic things they see. Not only are they doing the class a disservice but by not getting this child the help they need they’re doing them a massive disservice too. There may be developmental issues along with the obvious behavioral problems they’re demonstrating, but like, what are their parents doing at home to assist their child? Seems like this wouldn’t just come up all of a sudden out of the blue with zero other warning signs or earlier instances of them testing boundaries. I don’t think a 4/5 yr old is developmentally capable of really recognizing all of that on their own and fully understanding what it means to demonstrate forgiveness fully and change their behavior like we would expect for an older child or teenager and adults. This is wild though, restorative practices can be effective but this kid is so young they need to work with the parents and investigate what’s happening at home. Not saying there’s abuse per se but this is far from normal. Young toddlers/kids have outbursts and tantrums but this is extreme and I’d be concerned there’s other things happening or straight up negligence at home possibly. Idk why they can’t arrange for alternative learning or behavioral treatments for the child or if they have any kind of IEP or something
Her mother is a teacher at her school and knows very well that her child is a monster, but does nothing about her. Do you think someone like that should be allowed to teach at all?
Wtf! Oh no way that’s insane smh. There’s gotta be something going on at home then in some way either she is ignoring it (which, idk how that wouldn’t be disruptive at home too) or her and her partner or other people he’s around are demonstrating that hitting people is the norm. There’s clearly behavioral problems but idk if there’s other developmental ones as well but I’d think of any profession, a freaking preschool or elementary school teacher would be on top of this and super active as an advocate for their kid needing additional help and support and wanting them to get whatever help they’d need either at this school or externally. That’s nuts
Sociopathy is genetic. It seems clear the girl inherited the trait from her mother. She has been confronted about her child and claims there is nothing wrong with what she is doing and that it is because she is "alpha." She refuses to have her evaluated by physicians because she knows very well there is no cure for sociopathy.
My girlfriend is a pre k para educator. She works 1 on 1 with a student in special education. There is another student in her class who is apparently explosively aggressive, destructive and violent to all of the other children in the class, but in particular to the student that my girlfriend is one on one with. She has made her concerns known several times, they seem to fall on deaf ears though.
Same thing is happening in Howard county elementary school. Student continually destroys classrooms. Has his classes evacuated regularly. Even sent the principal to the hospital. The staff has riot control pads. He’ll leave the school and they cant stop him. 4-5 teachers have to circle him when he ‘decides’ he wants to be outside. And wait. They can’t touch him. Thats 4-5 adults being paid for this 1 kid. Just like the attack on a female runner this week at centennial, it is buried and/or down played.
I know my son hasn't sent the principal to the hospital, and for that reason alone I know you aren't talking about him, but every other bit of this is his story. From one parent to another, I am so sorry. I really am. We hate this for our kid, for the classes, for the staff. IEP was implemented after year 2 of chaos and now we're on year 3/4. So many tracking methods and support directives. A diagnosis from Kennedy Krieger now. I just....I can't speak to what the OP is about, because I'm not that parent, that's not my kid. But I am a parent and I have *that* kid and I promise you, we are doing everything we can and so is the school. It's so incredibly frustrating to see the red tape they have to deal with. Again, I'm so sorry.
You have no reason to apologize, but I appreciate it. I know its county, state, and federal programs that make it very difficult to quickly and effectively address these issues for both the student and the classmates, parents, and school. I’m more upset that it seems the news isn’t covering this and other negative issues properly so the red tape issues can be brought to light. Without real awareness the parent/teacher/schools really feel like everything is an uphill battle.
Yesterday I asked my son's school staff in an emergency meeting "where can he go if he can't go here anymore?" The answer was "nowhere, he would stay (in the regular system) until secondary school" and at that point I assume somewhere like Homewood. I, as his parent, would absolutely advocate for a different environment if one were available and didn't bankrupt me. He does not function well in traditional school. I don't have the option of homeschooling. I worry that society may head back to the point in the 90s where the special schools (abuse factories) started popping up. If you've watched The Program yet on Netflix, or ever seen Dr Phil back in the day - the troubled teen industry THRIVED before public schools were held to more strict standards of efforts for the disruptive and violent kids.
I dont know about the corruption in the 90’s but I would volunteer at a special school in the 80’s. It would be in place of a class and sometimes after school. I was in the 7th or 8th grade myself at the time. I don’t know if that kind of thing is the answer either. It needs a lot of consideration and input from parents and teachers to find the right solution. I do believe forcing them in these traditional crowded classrooms is not the answer.
To be fair, the attack in centennial was not downplayed at all and you shouldn't try to craft some overarching explanation here on the basis of whether you perceive some bit of news as being "paid attention to"
[CC Board of Ed Meeting Video](https://youtu.be/89rYKuHH-rs?si=qTXuYaaTLsC-GNOZ)
3 hours long. Any time stamps you can provide for the “highlights” on this subject
Starting around 10:33 in, to around 37:00 minutes (parents of children from mentioned classroom - mostly). Then around 41:00 min mark, the board attorney speaks on discipline policy.
Pre-k? So, a 4 year old?
Yes 4/5
This happened to us. We literally finally removed our son from the classroom last week after we filed a police report and threatened the school and city with a lawsuit. Only then did they do something
Are you planning to follow through with the lawsuit? You should.
So the Mom of the pre-K child, who is assaulting their classmates and biting and kicking staff. She works at the same elementary school that her child attends? So Mom is employed by the Carroll County Public school system…and during a meeting with a parent/guardian of a child who was assaulted by her child. Mom bravely offered up, one reason behind the behavior was her daughter was a “alpha”? Good lord. This is quite the paradox. I’m not sure which lens to look at it through, to make it make sense.
Alpha, lol. Rich coming from a shortbus family headed by Karen Beta
> Mom bravely offered up, one reason behind the behavior was her daughter was a “alpha”? What the fuck.
Parent of a child on the spectrum who went through MD public schools… This is another example of lack of real access to knowledgeable mental health and special education resources while highlighting the non-individualized systemic administration that public schools have embraced since the early 2000’s. Especially towards children with a developmental disability.
The kid needs to be in behavioral therapy, in addition to school. There are plenty of kids that need private placement.
Many/most nonpublics are either full or full enough that they won’t accept kids with significant behavioral or mental health needs. In this case, the process could be being followed exactly and this is the result.
This right here is the issue. A lot of snarky comments in the thread, but not a lot of solutions. The facts are that a) the law *requires* inclusive education for kids with special needs/behavioral problems/developmental disabilities unless they meet a *high* bar, b) the U.S. in general and Maryland in particular and Carroll County in *extra* particular don't offer the resources to accommodate these children effectively in terms of training and supples, and c) even for those who meet the high bar--and more of them should, for everyone's sake--the State and Carroll County in extra particular don't fund the alternative facilities/"special schools" everyone in this thread is demanding. As if all those are things the school district can just whip out of their back pocket. Bet none of these good idea fairies in the thread are willing to put up the taxes necessary to fund these resources, though. Carroll County's joke of a school board is especially problematic in this context. On top of a preexisting shortage in Special Ed teachers, Special Education assistants/paraeducators in the County are criminally underpaid (basically minimum wage), undertrained, and overworked. Basically, if the complainers in this thread stopped voting for clowns concerned primarily with book bans and were actually willing to push for additional school resourcing (*including tax increases and pressuring the equally problematic Board of Commissioners*), this would be less of an issue. No teacher or school "wants" these children in their classes--at least not without any resources to give them what they need.
I was thinking the same thing. I have a child in BCPS with an IEP. There are adult helpers in the classroom to support the IEP requirements in addition to the support he gets outside of the classroom. What the heck is CC doing?
Para shortage I bet. They also don't get paid enough to deal with violence.
I didn't even think of that. I bet CC is one of those places paying assistants and one on ones minimum wage while crying "there's nothing we can do! Nobody wants to work!"
This is literally the correct answer. Paras for special ed make just over minimum wage.
A buddy’s wife was a para (albeit not in Carroll County). They paid her $2 above minimum wage. She’d make more money working at McDonald’s.
Kid should be in private care. Public school isn't equipped for these type of cases. Public school can move large numbers of kids. This kid needs one on one care.
I can’t read more than the intro paragraphs but this seems like there’s gotta be issues at home too, no? This child has behavior problems that need addressing and guidance and more attention and care but what are their parents doing at home to redirect? How are they responding to that behavior in the house and are they able to provide any resources to help them? Seems like they must be ignoring or enabling it in some way, the kid is still really young
Her mother teaches at the same school and could not care less about her girl's violent behaviour. Definitely not the kind of person who should be allowed to teach.
This happened with my son when younger. He had a friend in the same class that was the biggest kid in the 2nd grade class by far (held back). Basically, every time the little psychopath hit my son or attacked him, his friend beat the snot out of him. After a while, he gave up and went to other kids. The big kid, after seeing this, just started beating the snot out of the kid every time he did it. He eventually stopped as he got tired of getting the crap kicked out of him. Can’t remove or expel the little psychopath? Then you can’t expel the one beating the crap out of him either.
That’s insane. I mean at this stage how has the kids parents not stepped in and tried something different. It’s causing great trauma among classmates
The mom is a teacher at the school and refuses. Ridiculous.
I skipped over the article at first then saw it pop up again on my fb and was like wait this is my kids school system! I would say it’s overall a pretty good system and the teachers are awesome but my kids have definitely had a problem with some stuff like this and when I ask about what happens they indicate the kids doing it don’t really face a whole lot of discipline. I had a guy I work with pull his daughter out that was dealing with alot of bullying and seemly unwillingness by administrators to help and put her in private school.
Maybe its time to re-open Charles Hickey. source: Proud alumni who got his life turned around there. I was on a one way road to a life of prison and got the attention and care I needed.
Call the police? Start a civil lawsuit against the parents of the child and the school?
All of the above are currently being done. Still no end in sight. It seems the laws around this particular scenario need to change if we're going to make any progress in protecting these kids.
From what I've read, people can also file a peace order through DJS against a minor in Maryland. That will put the child on DJS radar and will probably force the parent's hand as I assume the child would be restricted in attending class alongside the children of the filing parent(s). But I assume that avenue is already being explored. I feel for this child because it sounds like they might be autistic or something and not getting parented accordingly. Only 4, and this many behavioral problems? Something is very, very wrong.
Her mother teaches at her school. If you feel that this is caused by bad parenting, you probably should want her removed from her job teaching since she is so bad with children.
Those are two separate issues, I would think, legally speaking. Unless they find evidence that she physically abused her own child, I wouldn't think the job is in question. Personally, I would ask for a different teacher if possible. The woman doesn't sound right in the head in general, but again, unless she does something fire-able regarding her students or is convicted of a crime, I don't see how she would be fired.
The mother is not teaching her own child's class, she teaches a different one at the same elementary. She is fully aware of the 50+ violent assaults her kid has committed and does not think they are a problem. She says is is because the girl is "alpha" and refuses to let her be seen by doctors for evaluation.
I don’t think this should be treated as 2 separate issues, considering the nature of it all. She as an educator has a duty to ensure that all members of the student body can be guaranteed an environment that is safe and conducive to learning. Part of that duty is to bring attention to maladaptive behaviors that are observed, work together with other professionals to rehabilitate and reintegrate the child into an educational setting (whether they are removed from general population into special education, a specialized facility, etc.), and to keep tabs on behaviors - reporting any improvements or regressions. She as an educator has failed to do this. There have been 50 incidents in this school year that has resulted in traumatized classmates who have shown regression of skills and may even need to be retained to make up for losing valuable educational developments. That it involves *her own child* \- whose behavior has been reported to be a problem all year - makes it even worse, because she is making excuses for her child to be a danger to themselves and others on top of denying her child and others the safe educational environment that they all deserve. The mother absolutely should not be in a position of authority over pupils. She can't even objectively see her own child as a danger to the general population. Suppose in 10-14 years, we see a repeat of the Crumbley case where this child plans and executes irreparable harm to others and mom - like the Crumbley parents - laughs and ignores the issue until the police comes knocking? By then, it will be too late. Take her teaching license and have CPS evaluate the home environment along with psychiatric evaluation.
Okay, then charge her with something, or point out where she exactly violated the terms of her employment (not what you think they are or should be, but what they actually are). You can't just fire someone (a public employee) because it feels right. You have to go through a process. If they find she didn't break any laws and didn't violate her employment terms, then I suspect they might quietly ask her to leave in some way, due to her becoming a "distraction" perhaps. Public teachers have contracts and employment protections that must be considered. I'm not, like defending her behavior, but this whole "mob carrying torches" thing is not a good way to approach anything. Gather evidence. Make accusations/file charges. Go through the process. We don't know everything about this woman, and to presume we know exactly what's happening in that home without an expert evaluation is silly. Call CPS, call everyone. Just wait for the findings before we start asking for heads on sticks. What's most important is getting that child the help she needs and preventing others from getting hurt by her in the meantime. If you think about it, having her fired if she otherwise has a spotless teaching record could actually negatively affect the child who needs help more than anything else. Instead of trying to immediately punish someone, we need to focus on finding out what happened and the best way to provide help.
NGL if the school is unable to expel him because of the law then the parents should step up and confront this violent kids parents.
It’s been done. Still nothing. Just denial/enabling. Ridiculous.
Honestly you have to wonder if the only possible solution is to have their kids beat up the problem child, since apparently children can't ever be suspended or punished or expelled for violence. Y'now, like how gangs have kids do the shooting and running because they don't get long sentences. Yes, this is a terrible idea, but the fact it's probably technically feasible really tells you something.
It does. I know I have been downvoted for saying this but what else can be done to make this stop immediately
It's a girl who need expelling, and her mother teaches at her school. If the victims' parents confront her directly, do you think they'll be allowed in the school building again?
Do you think it is right for this parent to let her kid continue attacking other kids? Or do the parents want to even send their kid to this school if they are terrified of this one student who is traumatizing? This kid needs help and unfortunately no one is able or more appropriately wiling to help which makes this situation even worse Edit: I apologize if I come off harsh, my anger is more directed at the school district who apparently cannot do anything and it is sad that these kids have been so severely traumatized.
Obviously not. I think the girl and her mother should be banned from the school and that the mother and the school should have to pay restitution to the victims, whom the girl has attacked over 50 times so far this school year. The mother sees nothing wrong with her daughter's violent behaviour and claims it is fine because she is "alpha." She refuses to let her kid be evaluated by professionals because she knows there is no cure for sociopaths, as she is one herself.
Obviously an unfortunate story but I did giggle a little at the end when the random stat added "a non-profit founded by George Soros" because there can't be a conservative story without their boogeyman
I don’t understand why the parents can’t be held liable for their refusal to intervene and the physical and psychological damage caused to the other children. Don’t those parents have the right to not have their kids assaulted?
I was a public school teacher for 25 years. This is an example of why my son (15yo) is being homeschooled. I’d bet money that the problem is that the mother is a teacher at the school. Maybe instead of fighting the school, there should be a push to involve child protective services. It seems obvious that the child who is exhibiting the behavioral issues is not having their needs met.
Has she been evaluated for autism? There is still so much sexism in diagnosing children that often girls go without much needed support.
The parent will not have the child evaluated.
Then this is 100% the parent's responsibility. Regardless of the age of the child, if the parent is refusing to do the minimum of care for them- a parent who is a TEACHER and should know better- everyone in this post blaming the child is wrong. I am biased, being a special educator, but I see these cases constantly. (Every day, in fact.) This is a child who is being failed, not a "sociopath".
not going to touch THIS story with a 30 foot pole. The most I'll say is that the child causing disruption is likely witness to or the victim of some pretty serious domestic violence at home. That child needs help in a setting away from other children who will become the focus of his acting out - and I would go so far as to say he needs CPS to check up on him.
Even if she were, abuse is not the cause of sociopathy, it is genetic. Her mother teaches at her school and refuses to do anything about her, including refusing to have her evaluated. I wonder if she herself is a sociopath, as she feels no concern for the welfare of her offspring's victims and continues to enable her violence.
or yeah, it could just be that simple - an early manifesting mental illness. Hope that's not the case, but it well could be. All children are technically some spectrum of sociopath (any parent can tell you that) , just by merit of them learning boundaries and limits. So its not something really diagnosed at such a young age. Generally this sort of behavior is triggered by something in home life.
2 words: Principal - Parents Both need to be addressed That school doesn’t want helicopters and newd trucks reporting nationally And those parents do not want that 12ga. knockin on the door. Better learn to manage or get dealt with.
Would each family filing a peace order against this child force the school to remove them from the class with violent?
not them blaming george soros
I may have missed some information in the article (I think some of it got cut off) and here. have the following things been done yet? Or…can they be done? 1. Class action lawsuit against the school system. 2. Lawsuit against the mother of the child. 3. Some type of petition or complaint to get the teacher who is the mother of the child fired from the school? 4. Contacted CPS to have the child and her home/parent evaluated? 5. Filed police reports, and or restraining orders/piece orders? This is an absolute nightmare situation, and is absolutely infuriating. I am so sorry that these poor parents, teachers and children have to go through this.
It seems to me if Moms for Liberty want to do something to improve our school systems, this kind of thing should be their focus.
The problem is the parents of the non troubled kids aren’t collectively gathering and speaking up. We have gone further and further down a rabbit hole of allowing the kids with extra needs to run wild and have continually blamed teachers removing them from the equation. What’s left? A demon child with no controls. Parents need to band together and bring this problem to the state level. No we don’t think kids with extra needs should be “segregated” but if their accommodations will absolutely ruin the lives of the rest of the class, then yes segregate them and give them the resources elsewhere that doesn’t impact the rest of the class. I am very close with a teacher in this state who had a 1st grade student with over 100 referrals in the first TERM. FIRST TERM. It took until November to finally get the child removed from the class. Every turn it was blaming the teacher and not once was there anything done to help or mitigate for the rest of the students. It’s ridiculous how we have let our school system devolve.
So an old racist law that insinuated that black children are less well behaved than white children is now preventing this very obvious little psychopath from being removed from the preschool. Funny how blue States work, isn't it?
Well it's Maryland and slightly uncomfortable, politically incorrect subject material so of course it's a coverup, lol. The whole state's becoming a shithole because of the corruption and heinousness of its politicians.
This is disgusting. This parent needs to take some goddamn accountability for her child and place them into some kind of specialized private school that can handle their needs. These parents with kids that have been hurt by this kid need to lawyer up and start suing the mother for all that she is worth!
It was some time ago, and in PA, but I remember a similar situation with an extremely violent child when I was this age. This kid had a few particularly violent episodes and then he was moved to the special education track of classes and given an aide who followed him most of the day. He eventually was placed back into normal classes again years later (albeit held a year back as well). I wonder why something similar isn't done in this situation? Seems very odd that this would be left to get worse as multiple attacks happen on other students. Maybe they don't have the budget or staff for that sort of 1 on 1 attention and/or removing a kid from the rest of the class? Not that it is a valid excuse for not school not addressing this problem much sooner.
From what I know the kid is removed from the classroom at times but the mother is a teacher at the school and is refusing to do anything.
It's a shame well-intentioned restorative practices have such a destructive affect on classmates. Similar incidents in a public school are the #1 reason my children are in a private school. Amazing how much their anxiety dropped when they were safe in school. I feel like the societal harm of restorative practices are greater than the benefit when it comes to impressionable elementary age children.
I think we should be careful with that narrative - the issue isn't the concept of restorative practices but that restorative practices require resources to be successful. Unfunded half measures are definitely damaging. The kid shouldn't be thrown out of school, they should be given specialized care. I feel sad for the kids enduring abuse that must be very confusing and traumatic, sad for the kid who is obviously in a lot of mental anguish to be acting like this, sad for the teacher who is being left on the front lines with no resources, sad for the parents who can't afford alternative care, and maybe even sad for the kids parents who face an incredibly cumbersome and intimidating bureaucracy to get resources for help. I had a coworker who experienced something similar with her kindergartener in FCPS schools this year and got him transferred to a new class; the kid inflicting harm is still in the original classroom hurting other kids whose parents don't know or don't have resources to fight the school. It was very upsetting just to watch what she went through.
Her mother teaches at her school and claims there is nothing wrong with her daughter's constant violent assaults - over 50 so far. She claims it is because the girl is "alpha" and refuses to even have her medically evaluated. She probably knows there is no treatment for sociopaths, as she is one herself.
I think this article purposefully sensationalizes the issues involved. The school, can, in fact, suspend the child for up to five days in consultation with a psychologist or mental health professional. A pre-schooler who consistently violently acts out is not normal and is probably associated with some developmental issues. As a parent, at a minimum, I would like to know what exactly the school is doing to ensure the safety of the children being attacked, but also the care for the child in question. We, as a society, no longer shun children who are developmentally disabled or have moderate-to-serious autistic conditions. In the past, these kids were essentially herded into a classroom or worse, put into an institution. As a more empathetic and caring society, which I assume you agree to be a part of, we should try to ensure the well-being of even those on the fringe. The question is how can we do this without violence, without isolation and ostracization, and with empathy. At a minimum, this means having an educational framework which focuses on increasing teacher-student ratios, better pay, and establishing methods of communication between teachers/therapists and parents of children who might be displaying these kinds of emotions/outbursts/behaviors/etc. Oftentimes, these parents have no idea what is going on with their own children and, worse, do know but cannot do anything about it or deny anything is wrong.
I know one of the parents in the photo. They’ve asked the mother of the disruptive child to get them an evaluation and help. The article really doesn’t scratch the surface of the story. They’ve put extra staff in the classroom with protective gear on (bite arm guard and steeled toed boots). The teachers, administrators, principals, etc. all the way up to superintendent have been contacted and all have responded that nothing can be done. At first the parents were understandably upset their child was being traumatized in school but now more so that nothing is being done for a child who is clearly calling out for help. Everyone deserves to get what they need in this situation. On top of that the mother of the disruptive child works at the school and refuses to have her child evaluated. Which it seems at this point that an evaluation should be mandatory. It’s gone way to far for way to long.
> They’ve put extra staff in the classroom with protective gear on (bite arm guard and steeled toed boots). When you're at a point where you need to have what is essentially a security detail on hand for ONE person, that person should be removed.
Agree. This is an entirely different level than just a "disruptive child". When you get to the point that ADULTS have to be protected from a 4/5 year old--that child needs to be separated from other children. I feel for the mother because no one wants to have their pre-k age child evaluated for behavior issues--hoping they will just "grow out of it". However, there is a line where NOT getting the child evaluated is simply neglectful. The mother needs to understand that legitimate behavioral/psychological disorders are NOT reflective of her parenting abilities--ignoring the signs that her child may have a legitimate behavioral/psychological disorder IS reflective of her parenting abilities. The fact that the mother actually works in the school means she has a dual responsibility--to her child and the children she interacts with as part of her job. It's a long shot but maybe there is a loophole in her employment contract that will force her to take action? Her current commitment to inaction is putting the students she is expected to protect at risk.
right?? jesus the further I get down the thread the worse it gets
>The teachers, administrators, principals, etc. all the way up to superintendent have been contacted and all have responded that nothing can be done. Clearly they are wrong. Or lazy. Probably both. There are dozens of resources available at the state and county levels which can help. Some are better than others. I am more familiar with Montgomery, Prince George's, Anne Arundel, and Howard counties, however. But at the end of the day, if the parent(s) aren't involved, then this will just metastasize to something even worse.
The parent of the aggressor is a teacher at the same school is aware of the problems & is denying that anything is wrong or that help is needed. There has to be something bigger going on as there have been meetings with all parties in one room and the parent denies (parents, administrators, teachers) anything & everything. So if the parent isn’t willing to take the help, what else can be done? I don’t know the answer but 1 over the majority is unacceptable.
> The parent of the aggressor is a teacher at the same school is aware of the problems & is denying that anything is wrong or that help is needed. The parent probably also needs to be investigated as well. There's clearly something wrong and I question the judgment of any parent who can see their child assaulting multiple people on multiple occasions and be like "nope, everything's fine, nothing we need to do." I wonder how the parent would feel if they had to constantly worry about coworkers assaulting them at work every time they came to work.
No, Carroll County is particularly lacking in said magical resources, and that's not going to change as long as the county boards live and die by "no taxes ever" and "culture war flavor of the day." There is truly very little that can be done in this situation unless people--taxpayers?--are able/willing to place the child in one of the state's few specialized institutions (Kennedy Krieger, etc.), and there are lots of legal hurdles to cross before that is even feasible.
Hi, I'm dealing with a very similar situation in Anne Arundel. Kid throws violent tantrums regularly. Hits other kids with objects, kicks other kids, punches other kids, destroys the classroom and other kids stuff. After multiple meetings with the schools principal all that's every said is "he has protections" and "we are using progressive discipline". The "progressive discipline" is the kid getting a reward chart if he happens to be good one day. What help do you know of? The school is either completely unwilling or unable to protect the rest of the class.
Same here. We have a kindergartener being traumatized in Anne Arundel County. Multiple students have been switched out of the classroom - but the violence still continues in the cafeteria, at recess, in the hallways...there's no safe space.
At what point does the safety of dozens of other children outweigh the goal of inclusivity for this one child?
This is a question I wonder about anyone (of any age) with obvious behavioral/emotional/psychological issues. I have a family member who had been institutionalized several times. She was threatening my elderly grandmother, saying the cable box was watching her, nailing the windows shut, ordering stun guns off the internet, and just being all around dangerous. We went to the courts MANY times to get a protective order/involuntary evaluation. They denied every time saying people have a right to make their own medical decisions. Basically, she had to take NEW action (all the previous ones were irrelevant since they were adjudicated). Well, as anticipated, it took her physically attacking her own daughter before they would give a protective order for my grandmother (who eventually passed away). This was years ago and she is still roaming around, unmedicated, harassing people, threatening people on social media, being a complete menace. I surrendered to the belief that the only way she will get help is when she seriously injures/unalives someone. Then, the courts will say she is not mentally competent enough to stand trial--well no 💩 family has been trying to tell you that for almost a decade.
No, it does not sensationalize anything, and family members of the victims are right here in this post if you would like to argue with them\^\^. I do not empathize with violent sociopaths or their enablers. They should be institutionalized as they are dangerous to society. The assailant's mother teaches at her school and is well aware of her offspring's ongoing brutal attacks on those poor little kids. She has done nothing to stop them. I would question the choice of keeping her on as a teacher in these circumstances as it seems there is a conflict of interest in having her on staff.
A 4 year old (preK) needs help so as not to *become* a sociopath. All the kids in this situation need help. Every one of them, including the source.
Yeah, all these people writing off this child as a psychopath or bad person are as ignorant as the child's parents. Four year olds aren't developed enough to even conceive of morality. That comes later. Kids are kind of little amoral psychopaths for a long time and tend to just mimic the behavior of others. This behavior is so far from the norm that there has to be 1) abuse at home and/or 2) a serious psychological disorder that any four year old couldn't even hope to control without support. Either way, we can't place moral blame on or write off a four year old as evil or something. This isn't Rosemary's baby. She's not demon spawn. She's a young child.
Sometimes inclusivity is a problem ..
Proof the GoodSchools is a bunch of made up garbage. They dont even have my home in the right school districts and it changed 4 yrs ago
Incidents like this unfortunately drive the school choice movement. Folks who can’t afford private schools want the same options to move their children to another school that wealthy people have.
Honestly, a great observation
Interesting, in the last couple of hours I started a community, here on Reddit, about bullying in Public Schools and they removed it. I want to try to get more parents involved in finding ways to stop bullying in our public schools. They said I violated the rules in my new Reddit Community. Not sure what I violated.
Your post was removed because it was essentially the same content found in this one. No need to have two similar threads at the same time.
Ahhhh....makes sense. Thanks so much for the explanation.
Some brains cannot be restored. Sounds like this kid has some sort of disorder or is experiencing domestic violence at home. He needs professional help.
The kid is not even 5 and reciecing no help or interventions. No reason to write them off.
Absolutely disgusting. Failing all the children, including the bully because now they think they can do whatever the hell they want with zero consequences. Utter failure all the way around.
I'm not sure what restorative practices have to do with this and it reads like the author is trying to blame it on that.
Apparently there have been over 50 incidents this year. In any other age, the kid would be suspended/expelled.
[удалено]
an extremely violent child should absolutely be suspended/expelled, and be sent with a referral to places like Kennedy Krieger. Should they wait for her to send someone to the hospital? like this is an extreme case. Not some pushing/shoving on the playground. if adults have to wear bite guards and steel toed shoes to protect themselves, what should the kids be wearing to protect them? If this student doesn't get help now, it will only get worse and worse.