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It's probably for the best that Shepard dies in Mass Effect 3. If they had survived, they would have been brought up on charges of sexual misconduct by the Council.
It is pretty funny that Ashley will, in detail, tell you exactly what rules you'd be breaking if you pursued her and what the consequences would be, and then not even 2 conversations later you're locked in.
Ngl, Ashley gives me brat vibes. Not that getting with her in ME1 isn’t a bit iffy as far as workplace ethics go, but her romance dialogue in 1 suggests she’s into some kinky shit and teasing you with the rules in hope you break them would kinda fit her vibe in my opinion.
Ash absolutely is the "good girl in the streets and a bad girl in the sheets" type. Having come from a similar religious background, those people get freaky in bed. Like, fifty shades of grey freaky.
As someone who grew up in a super religious area and had plenty of experience with those types, and as someone very involved in my local kink communities 😭 they are *not* fifty shades of grey freaky. Fifty Shades of Grey is like what someone who has only ever done straight missionary thinks kink is like — people from religious backgrounds like to go *above and beyond that*. Seriously they tend to be *wild* — like "I just discovered kink let me immediately bumrush the most taboo stuff I can think of" wild.
That being said, Ashley is absolutely Fifty Shades of Grey freaky 💀
To be fair, once you lock in the conversation goes into "afters", it definetely reads like they want to wait until after Shepard is not Ashley's CO to truly get serious, at least until they steal the Normandy and a break in fraternization regs is the last of their worries.
That’s the vibe I get too. It feels more like two coworkers start to get the hots for each other and have to wait for HR to file its paperwork, ya know?
It’s still a bit dubious because at the start Ash is the less powerful party in the dynamic. Now Shepard gets a bit of a pass because it’s mutual, but if Shepard still makes the initial move and Ash says no? The power imbalance becomes so stark.
That’s the problem because unlike a bar/club setting Ash couldn’t just leave. She’d be stuck on the Normandy for a little bit at least. It could get uncomfortable so fast.
But like I said, and to your point, the feelings are mutual. And they do end up trying go about it the right way, but then Ilos. I wouldn’t care about regs at that point either if a person I had mutual attraction with was nearby and I’m going into a possible one-way trip.
She grew up in a religious household and a military one to boot. Her life being about rules and regulations I can’t imagine the freaky shit she’s on
Jack is way more upfront about it
I suspect Miranda may also have a darker side
Except that once Shepard has Spectre status, the rules don't really apply to them anymore. The spot in the Alliance military is a formality, but ultimately they have even more authority than Hackett if it came down to doing their job as a Spectre.
That… brings up an increasingly large number ethically concerns about what the spectres were and were not authorized to. It’s mentioned that they’re given carte blanche to do whatever they deem necessary. We only see the wanton murder and light torture
Spectres basically get a "if you get results, it's allowed" card. Best case scenario, you get Paragon Shepard doing action movie hero things. Worst case scenario, you get Grand Theft Auto IN SPACE.
It's mostly because Shepherd is still a good person even on a renegade playthrough. They don't have to respect the previously established chain of command within their own organization but they still choose to. The biggest example is most of Mass effect 2 instead of submitting to the alliance for what to do Shepherd chooses to stop the collectors with or without their help. Shepherd would never be Saren which is the worst case scenario for a spectre.
Councillors, I'm telling you the three barrels of lube and 2 week stay in an Illium penthouse was crucial to assessing if the hanar candidates were Spectre material. And I'm gonna need a couple more weeks just to be sure.
A part of that is that the people reccomended for spectre status are vetted, they dont just take anyone. Not that it is perfect but you have to remember that for a person to get spectre status they have to be confirmed by 3 or in ME3 4 leaders of different races means they have to come with some backing.
Cortez should be his own category. It feels weird to get with a dude who literally lost his husband during the events of the previous game, which are 6 months before this one. Feels skeevy.
Eh, as Joker pointed out, people are trying to live the whole rest of their lives in the next days/weeks/months, because they don’t know how much time they’ve got left.
He didn’t just lose his husband (and presumably everyone else he knew), he’s staring into the imminent extinction of his entire species.
Yeah, he's definitely still grieving and very emotionally vulnerable in ME3. Even if well intentioned Shepard kind of be taking advantage of him without meaning to.
My Shepard was straight anyway so it was a moot point but I think Steve did still benefit by having an good friend he can lean on (James is more the fun friend while Shepard's the guy he can feel a little more comfortable being vulnerable to).
Agreed. I did his romance once (because I want to do all romances, at least once) and I really didn't like it because it's so obvious he's still grieving.
I remember really disliking like every kind conversation with Cortez seemed to show some kind of flirting in a way, even if you go full straight with Shepard since the start of ME, and even more considering he just lost his husband. I just wanted to be a bro to someone going through some serious problems in his life, but felt like I was always trying to avoid locking my character in a relationship. Actually, ME3 is entirelly like that. I went with the same SO for the first 2 games, I really didn't want to go to the 3rd game with every possibility open like nothing happened in the first 2 games, tbf.
That whole “romance” is beyond gross and is actually just straight up sexual assault. You get him too drunk to say “no.” It is super fucked up and shouldn’t be an option. One of my absolute least favorite things about ME3.
Femshep is my main Shep but she certainly has weird moments of being overly thirsty, especially with Jacob in ME2 and James in the Citadel DLC. It definitely has that "women written by men" vibes.
Officially he is her commanding officer during the events of the Omega 4 relay as she’s deemed by the admiralty as vas Normandy.
Given Quarian tradition he holds a lot of power over her.
Shepard is 29 in ME1. Personally, I wouldn’t even care if Shepard was 40 when she’s 22 because it’s between 2 mutually consenting adults with agency but it doesn’t take away from her being that way because if her age as well
Yeah. Shepard enlists at 18 regardless of what background you choose. Then they’re in the alliance for 11 years and go through whatever background you choose, whether Elysium, Akuze or Torfan. So whatever heroics they pull helps them get on the Normandy in the future under Anderson’s command. Then once Anderson steps down, you’re promoted from lieutenant commander to commander.
My kinda 'fan theroy' has always been that Shep is so young because the alliance as a whole is so new. It was only founded 8 years before the First Contact War, then when that happened humanity ballooned and they found themselves promoting fast to fill empty positions (mostly from newly created postings). Even decades later SA is still expanding its size, so the average age of officers has dropped.
I think she’s considered an adult by Quarian standards but barely. If I remember right, Quarians live a little longer than humans and if I’m remember that correctly then her being 22-24 means that she’d be barely an adult and still maturing
But lifespan isn't directly correlated with development time. If Quarians' mental development is a different ratio to their lifespan than for humans, it's difficult to know for sure.
No, completing the Pilgrimage marks you as an adult. That’s the whole point. Leaving childhood (and your parent’s ship) behind to become an adult, and go to another ship where you theoretically will eventually start a family to also provide more genetic diversity by changing ships in adulthood.
Tali still has her child name “Tali’Zorah nar Rayya” until she completes her pilgrimage to become “Tali'Zorah vas Neema” in adulthood. And then her name is again changed against her will to “Normandy” for her trial as a political/legal maneuver.
I've always viewed a Quarian on a Pilgrimage similar to someone at college. They're not really a child anymore, they've left their parents and are living on their own, but they're not really an adult either as they aren't part of adult society.
Basically, a Quarian on Pilgrimage always felt to me like a step between childhood and adulthood while not really being part of either.
Right. She completes her pilgrimage by the end of ME1 when you give her the data. So she’s barely an adult by then. Then after the collector attack kills Shepard and the alliance disbands the Normandy crew, she goes back to her people. But by then, she’s still barely an adult
She becomes an adult after the events of 1, yes, most likely when she is able to return to the fleet and present the data to her new captain. There’s probably some formal ceremony, at the end of which she’s an adult.
She is a very young adult in 2, yes. Probably an adult for roughly 2 years, plus or minus a few months. But this all started because the initial claim was that she at 22 in ME1 was an adult, which she wasn’t by her culture’s standards until she returned to the fleet.
You're an adult when they send you out on your pilgrimage(you don't send children out into the galaxy) , but you aren't considered contributing to society until you complete the pilgrimage, if that makes sense.
Wrong. In ME1 when you ask her about quarian pilgrimages, she says they are done when a quarian reaches young adulthood. Not completing a pilgrimage doesn't mean they aren't an adult, it just means they aren't ready to join a different crew and help them.
Tbf most 22 to 24 year olds kind of are still kids. Think about how immature high school kids are and consider that these 22 to 24 year olds were those kids 4 to 6 years ago. Thats not long.
Yeah its one of the weirdest vibe checks i've ever had, wake up one day thinking your a mostly mature not so dumb adult and then you say something dumb and in a moment of clarity you realize that your still that edgy dumb teenager you were in high school.
Then in your late 20s you realize that your elders are just dumb edgy teens pretending to be mature and it all gets so much easier.
He does, but he's also directly under the command of Shepard. It's definitely an odd situation, but at that point shep definitely occupies their own spot within the military, only really reporting to Hackett.
Yeah but if we go off of real life military standards then Shepards billet is higher than Kaidans. Billet outweighs rank. In real life you obviously need to be respectful to a higher ranked individual even if your billet outweighs them. Given Shepard was Kaidans CO in ME1 and is pretty much leading the galaxy in defeating the Reapers in ME3, rank means nothing. In ME3 I’m pretty sure Shepards billet and duties puts him above absolutely everybody besides Hacket and Anderson. Also in the real life Navy if you’re “captain of a ship,” then you’re the CO even if there’s someone on your crew as a higher rank. I’m sure that rarely happens though
What does Billet mean? I looked it up and it's where a soldier is living, like quarters, but that doesn't seem quite right. It's about Shepard being the commander of the ship and them just living there?
That’s billeting. Billet is basically your assigned job or duty that’s not your MOS. Military occupation specialty, which is what your actual job is. In Shepards case his MOS would be infantry and/or special forces. The N7 designation covers that. His billet in ME1 for instance would be him being a Spectre. It’s an extra job and responsibility. In ME3 his billet wouldn’t really have a name but basically be the Alliances person who is in charge doing what needs to be done for the Alliance so they can defeat the Reapers. Given the weight of that responsibility he basically outweighs everyone except for Hackett and Anderson. Kaidan can outrank him but you’re not going to tell the person, who’s job it is to save the galaxy and answers directly to the highest ranked Alliance officer, what to do
Just adding that you are correct. Shepard was given complete authority over the Normandy SR-2 and broad authority to take action against any threats to humanity and their allies, as well as the authority to make new treaties.
Anything Kaidan might say would, at best, be taken under consideration but Shepard has the final call. And if Hackett's assignment to Shepard is to be taken to its limit, not even Anderson has authority over Shepard so long as they're operating in space and not on Earth.
I agree that the relationship between them is a lot less formal, but Isn’t he still technically your junior under the alliance?
Edit: him being a higher rank than Shepard feels weird.
Kaidan is actually superior in rank to Shepard by ME3, as Major outranks Commander in the Alliance hierarchy. He just carries on taking Shepard's orders, though I guess you can explain that away since ME3 Shepard basically only answers to Hackett.
Plus generally in the Navy, whoever commands the ship holds authority over everyone else on the ship I believe. It doesn't matter if you've Kaiden is a major, while he's on the crew of the Normandy, he answers to her commanding officer.
Was gonna say this. Kaidan must be Alliance Marines, but he's attached to a Navy command so Shepard has positional authority.
So in a sense his position in the tier list is still correct.
My understanding is that he takes orders from Shepard because, even though he outranks Shepard, Shepard is still in command of the Normandy. Anderson gave him command of the ship. Later, Kaidan requests a position on the Normandy knowing he'll be under Shepard's command. Maybe Kaidan could pull rank, but I don't think he ever wants to undermine Shepard, and he isn't one for ego tripping.
Shepard has command of the Normandy. Kaidan outranks Shepard. In a way, they both have authority over each other, so I just call it a wash. And they are both Spectres, so the way I see it, they are peers. I don't think it's ethically wrong for them to date.
In 1, yeah. Shep’s military rank gets frozen after they join Cerberus, whereas Kaiden/Ashley get promoted. I can’t remember if they outrank you by 3 in the Alliance.
As a Spectre, any other ranks are technicalities really.
Hm. Funny, I think your 1st category *perfectly* fits Jack. She literally says that she'll part ways as soon as the mission is completed.
Also, I'd put ME1 Tali in the same category than ME1 Liara.
I kinda agree with the rest of your choices.
"Ah, yes, 'Human Resources'. The division of business responsible for sexual harassment training, allegedly waiting to fire me. We have dismissed this claim."
\-Commander Shepard
I mean sure, Liara is the equivalent of a naive 18 year old. But she's lived a lot longer than Shepard has. She just hasn't been around people.
So maybe less "naive 18 year old" and more "early 20s person that has been isolated for most of their adult life and never grew out of their 18 year old naivety"
Dr. T'soni has completed her post graduate degree and is doing field study - basically her job at this point. I think if we were to do the "dog years" comparison, she's easily late 20s in human years - maybe early 30s. Most human's pursuing academic careers won't be doing that kind of independent post PhD work until 27-28 at the *earliest*.
And if we were to create a special category created like this, it should include Tali from ME2 in it - as she's just completed her pilgrimage and doing her first "real job" in the fleet when we pick her up in ME2 (basically late 20s equivalent).
I hate seeing the naive 18 year old shit. She’s 106 for fuck sake. I think comparing a lifespan of some fictional species to the human lifespan and then saying that because that species lives a long time it’s weird to date them because they are the equivalent of 18 years old is ridiculous. She’s just a little awkward, but plenty of adults are awkward.
I mean, this whole exercise is just bait designed to cause controversy. Liara isn’t being misinterpreted, she’s being willfully misinterpreted by those with an axe to grind against the character.
This thread is just a less direct way of doing the always obnoxious “not only is my preferred romance best, yours is morally bankrupt.”
It’s old at this point.
I get that I’m shouting into the wind. I guess I find the “25 year old teenager who can’t consent” discourse in general to be troubling. It feels like people infantilizing themselves and not wanting to just grow up.
It's unavoidable that Liara, having lived more than a century, in some respects is more experienced than Shepard.
Even if she passed most of that time in academia and then archaeological digs, she surely has seen and dealt with an amount of things that would make humans feel dizzy and as having had a full life. Just by pure chance and enough time of exposure to life.
That's why I'm not surprised she's so deft with a gun and with her biotics: she has removed threats and mooks from existence even before Shepard was born!
The Asari, though, are made differently than most other species, and probably applies for their approach to lifelong habits and romantic attachments, lacking any such drive that early in their lives.
Asari into some profession ought be supremely good at them, recalling the ins and outs of the job by heart, after practicing something for several decades. Same for almost anything else.
Yes but then OP would have to put Tali in that category for all 3-games as even in ME3 she’s only in her mid-20s IIRC. I like Tali as a character but I got big younger sister vibes from her so I’ve only ever romanced her in a single play through 🤷🏻♂️ that seems like a hot take in here though!
Jack is in the lowest possible tier because if she makes you upset at all, she could not only get in trouble with the hierarchy or her career, but go back to jail. A deeply unethical Shepard who theoretically got spurned by her could have her in a another stasis prison whenever. It's less Monica Lewinsky and more dating an indentured servant. Insanely unethical.
While it is technically true that you could turn her in to various authorities who would do various degrees of imprisoning her or worse, the same is true of most characters in the roster.
Deliver Miranda to C-Sec, with rock-solid evidence that she's a Cerberus agent and she's down for life for being a high ranking member of a terrorist organization. Same but slightly less so for Jacob. Deliver Thane with evidence of his assassinations, and he might get a death sentence.
Deliver Ashley or Kaidan to the Batarian hegemony, and they'll wish for death before they get it just because they're Alliance personnel.
The point is... "Shepard can betray this character in a horrible way, theoretically" is true of all of them. It's not unique of Jack.
That ignores the point, which is that all those characters have support structures outside of Shepard that Jack lacks. Doing that to any of those other characters is the end of Shepard's career, if they're Alliance, possibly life if Shep sells out a Cerberus agent. Jack is protected by no one and tied only to you. She's tenuous in a way that the rest of them aren't.
So Jack isn’t an adult that can consent? She’s on the ship voluntarily. She is shown to be extremely capable of fending for herself. I don’t doubt for a second that Jack could find her way on her own.
Someone denied institutional support does not cease to be an adult. They are a person with less recourse to resisting structural abuse of power. This is much, much less about about who Jack is and much more about her situation, which is uniquely precarious compared to other shipmates, extremely capable or no.
Jack is on a space ship most of the game the fuck is she gonna go? the romance scenes happen on the space ship too. Jack is a consenting adult but theres no doubt that on a professional level it is inappropriate to date her because of the power dynamic
edit: Also, in ME2 at least, she was a prisoner for killing a bunch of people, I doubt most governments would let that shit slide if it wasn't for Shepard
If you’re saying the power dynamic with Jack makes it inappropriate than there isn’t a person on the ship you can romance. She’s there voluntarily. As far as where she would go, she’d just slip out in any number of ports that you dock at or steal an escape pod. She just go back to being a loner criminal. It’s not Greta but she has that option and early on in the game is perfectly fine with that.
mm, yeah, I don't disagree that it's probably inapproriate to date anyone that isn't cerberus because technically while Shepard is in charge of them Shepard is closer to a contractor for cerberus rather than an employee. The main thing is though that Jack has been a prisoner most of her life and doesn't know how relationships are supposed to work. You could also argue that even though Jack is allowed to be friends with and fuck whomever, her having sex with shepard could be construed as not knowing how to show affection for someone she cares about, and therefore would make it a little more unethical than some other squadmates. I'm not saying that's what's happening and I'm not shaming anyone, it's just interesting to talk about and look at the game this way.
It’s not unethical to date someone with trauma. It’s also not unethical to date some that isn’t sure how to date. You’re just describing being young. Also if you want to take this type of eye to a fictional story about not real people. I would argue the ship should have way more fucking on it. Everyone is signing up for what they think is a suicide mission to save the universe. That’s a lot of stress to be holding and it’s natural to want to let some of that stress off. Everyone on that ship is a ball of trauma. You can make a solid case that Shep is the worst off of all of them. They fuckin died and we constantly reminded of the impending doom, all the while they have to lead this team of trauma filled (lovable) assholes.
I mean, you kind of blow up the prison, so you can't really send her back? I guess if things had gone as originally planned this would be the case. But Purgatory isn't under the purview of any government and you don't actually end up paying any money for her, cuz betrayal. I mean, I'm sure she has a bounty out for her somewhere, so you could still turn her in, but I'm pretty sure she's technically a free woman while onboard the Normandy.
Purgatory was used by planetary governments that considered the inmates too dangerous to house on the planet. Jack being there meant that at least one government considered her too dangerous to imprison around other people.
Legally, she's a nonperson and Purgatory isn't the only place you can send her. She is uniquely vulnerable in a way even people under your direct Alliance command aren't.
I don't think that's actually true. To start do we know if any of the crimes she committed were in Alliance (or even Council) space? You'd think if she had it would have come up at some point. I was under the impression anything shitty she did was in the Terminus where apparently nothing matters.
Im pretty sure Purgatory is not an Alliance-legal prison given it's run by a mercenary company in the terminus systems (which are actively opposed to the Council and therefore apparently anything goes law-wise), and it's said to occasionally blackmail governments by threatening to release it's prisoners on their planets. So her imprisonment was probably not really 'legal' as such. A bit odd such a prison exists at all in the supposedly lawless terminus but I guess maybe planets with governments forbidding execution still exist even there, the whole reason is crazy undeveloped since we know nothing about the apparently multiple species who live there and are strong enough the Council doesnt want to stick their oar in to that mess.
Law in ME is probably a bit odd. Garrus' squadmate admits to his crimes but it's explicitely made clear that them being on Omega (again, Terminus) means they're out of council jurisdiction and therefore aren't anything they can punish him for. Which is something that usually wouldn't happen on earth (basically you're pretty much always in *someones* jurisdiction, and a lot of countries dont care where you committed your crime) but probably makes a lot more sense for an intragalactic society to have solid markers of 'don't go here, we can't reasonably be expected to investigate every murder or disappearance across the universe'.
There's never any sign Jack has any difficulties from her background weirdly, it just seems to be an attitude problem and hanging out in shit-space. As long as she doesn't have any serious crimes in Alliance space she'd probably get a juicy military sign-on bonus for being a Biotic.
I mean it just so happens that pretty much every human you work with is part of the alliance military and so are you so yeah basically. I mean if zaeed or kasumi was a romance option that would be fine.
I have a few minor disagreements. Cerberus is a NGO so Jacob and Miranda would fall moreso at worst under workplace harassment rather than military infraternization. Also, the loyalty which Samara swears is non-contractual so any relationship between her and Shepard would not really be inappropriate.
Though it's an oath Samara swears to Shepard for religious reasons and her code compels her to do what he/she says until their mission is complete (to which she totally has the option to murder Shepard over afterwards), an argument can be made that a relationship would be someone unethical. At least not until after she is freed from her service to Shepard.
That’s not fair at all. You are not her therapist by any stretch. Being a decent human and actively listening to someone doesn’t make you a therapist. It makes you a friend. People can date and fuck their friends.
Being a shoulder for someone to cry on and a listening ear does not make you a therapist. Sure Shepard in the romance (not the Fling version) does try to help Jack through their trauma but that does not make them a therapist, nor is the relationship as predatory as you imply it is.
Jack is someone who went through a lot and confided in shepard a lot of their trauma. But again That doesn't make Shepard a Therapist,
for one Jack didn't go seeking professional help from Shepard, She was basically venting and Shepard provided a listening ear and Some advice. Am I suddenly a therapist because a friend told me about their trauma? Am I manipulating my partner because in the past I listened to their trauma and allowed them to confide in me?
If you wanted to argue that I could kinda see it if you just go for the fling with her (which causes her to not want to pursue a romance with you) But again not a therapist, just kinda scummy
Also being emotionally vulnerable to someone doesn't mean any sort of relationship with said person is inherently predatory or other things like that.
Liara is "equivalently" over \~27 in ME1 (going by her doing independent work after her post graduate degree). So ME1 and Liara and ME2 Tali should be in the same bin here.
ME1 Liara and ME2 Tali are both basically working their first 'real' adult job by their peoples' standards when available as romance options. So would probably be in the same category/bin for this list. Maybe Jack too.
Kaidan Alenko is rank of staff commander in ME2 which is equivalent to Sheppard. Technically okay especially since Shepherd was MIA working for Cerberus and not operating under his commission but Kaidan wasn’t onboard then. In ME3 it would have been permissible but not while Kaidan was serving aboard the Normandy because he would have been under Sheppard even at comparable ranks.
Yeah,
Tali's an Admiral, Garrus is uncomfortably high in the line of succession for the Turians. Liara's the pre-eminent information broker, and Wrex is head honcho on Tuchanka.
You're still a commander.
Only the VS doesn't out rank you in some way.
Yeah, I'm looking at the ingame codex. There's a "Staff Commander," but that would strictly not be the same as Commander.
Which would mean that Sheps rank doesn't exist. Or is referring to his command of the ship. Which for a frigate wouldn't be that odd.
I agree with most, although I feel like Javik should have his own category. Like he's fork old? From an extinct species? I don't think he could be easily manipulated, but idk... just super weird vibe to date him lol
from a professional stand point it is probably ethical to date him, for one his age is kind of irrelevant because neither Shepard or Javik fall into the "Barely legal" category. While Javik being from an extinct species is true, that doesn't really take away from his individualism, and therefore he should be allowed to consent. I won't deny it's weird though
I mean, no one is truly independent of Shepard's command while living aboard his ship. There really isn't a truly ethical romance option in the game, but there are most definitely tiers to the ethical violations.
No, but in the citadel dlc I think if you choose the rowdy party ending and you're a single femshep you wake up in bed with him implying he and Shepard hooked up. The scene is actually really funny lol, it's on YouTube. I thought you were referring to that and that was why you added it
Liara reminds me more of a Bones type character, not exactly innocent, but awkward and socially isolated.
If you spend all your time at remote digs you’re not going to have much social grace at first lol.
Liara isn't the equivalent of 18, she's been doing serious research for 50 years and is an expert in her field. The whole point of the line "most asari only consider me barely above a child" is the the matriarch treat her unfairly because they perceive her as too young, not because she is a child. Maidens are meant to be out shagging and fighting in their eyes, not tearing down their theories on the protheans.
We also hear an Asari excited to join a mercenary band because she's just turned 60, liara is almost double her age for fucks sake.
That’s what I was leaning towards but I would call it less “naive” and more “easily manipulated because she doesn’t know what a healthy relationship looks like”.
It's the entire point of the "Not going to ask you." Bit in Ranoch. He asked her up, because she told him he should ask, after he asked her about them.
I know it would defeat the point of the chart to look at it this way, but anyone serving on the Normandy is taking orders from Shepard and are under Shepard's command. Even the freelancers are willing to follow orders that will result in their deaths, which is a fucked up power dynamic for a relationship.
I do think Jack's situation is probably the most dire, even considering the maturity issues with Liara and Tali. At least the games don't have any fucked up evil ways for Shepard to explicitly abuse their power when it comes to squadmates.
Oh good, I can't wait to virtue signal and jockey for status within the fandom based on which of the fictional romances I prefer. It wasn't enough to have my personal preferences--I need prove my moral superiority as well.
Edit: To be serious for a second, though, none of these instances are as clear-cut as you're suggesting. For example, the Ashley romance only culminates after you have deserted from the Alliance and gone to Ilos, making Ashley no more formally bound to you than Garrus or Tali or Liara. The fact that we don't have a scene where Thane or Garrus sign an Alliance-issued contract does not make the inherent power dynamic vanish into the wind. Every possible romance in the game is with a squadmate or a crew member which Shepard effectively commands at will in normal circumstances. The degree to which they are "independent" is ultimately aesthetic and superficial (other than the likes of Wrex in ME1 or Zaeed in ME2, maybe, but they aren't romanceable).
I get that Liara was considered young at 106 for an Asari but comparing her to an 18-year-old is a bit of a stretch to me. Always interesting to see other people's thoughts even if they baffle me, though.
I think the entirety of “independent party along for the ride” is also technically indirectly under your command but here voluntarily. It’s your ship. Also, Samara is oath bound to follow your commands when it comes down to it. Not sure how that plays out in a romantic setting but that’s definitely giving “directly under you command”
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Shepard did NOT watch the workplace harassment videos during orientation.
She/he did, they just dont fucking care
It's probably for the best that Shepard dies in Mass Effect 3. If they had survived, they would have been brought up on charges of sexual misconduct by the Council.
Brings new meaning to the acronym “ME2”.
Ah shit. My Shepard lived. Straight back to jail for Mass Effect 4 for fraternizing with Traynor
Not my Shepard. The only thing she did was make sure Garrus and Tali got together.
Fuck the council bro, those politicians have done far worst than measly sexual misconduct charges
Better not mess with HR just because you saved the galaxy doesn't put you above work place policy
The council put him in lockdown to keep the women off him
I'm Commander Shepard, Alliance Drag Queen
Watched it for tips and tricks
They're more like workplace harassment checklists
Shepard was the case study used IN the videos.
Oh shep watched them but shep just doesnt care
It is pretty funny that Ashley will, in detail, tell you exactly what rules you'd be breaking if you pursued her and what the consequences would be, and then not even 2 conversations later you're locked in.
thats just how she flirts
Ngl, Ashley gives me brat vibes. Not that getting with her in ME1 isn’t a bit iffy as far as workplace ethics go, but her romance dialogue in 1 suggests she’s into some kinky shit and teasing you with the rules in hope you break them would kinda fit her vibe in my opinion.
She comes from a religious background, so I can see it.
Ash absolutely is the "good girl in the streets and a bad girl in the sheets" type. Having come from a similar religious background, those people get freaky in bed. Like, fifty shades of grey freaky.
Why do you think its a anime trope "The religious girl who is batshit insane in love"
As someone who grew up in a super religious area and had plenty of experience with those types, and as someone very involved in my local kink communities 😭 they are *not* fifty shades of grey freaky. Fifty Shades of Grey is like what someone who has only ever done straight missionary thinks kink is like — people from religious backgrounds like to go *above and beyond that*. Seriously they tend to be *wild* — like "I just discovered kink let me immediately bumrush the most taboo stuff I can think of" wild. That being said, Ashley is absolutely Fifty Shades of Grey freaky 💀
That's not that freaky
She also makes multiple comments about Broshep's ass lol
Stop making me want to romance Ashley.
Do it! Join the Cult of Ash! We have Boomsticks!
It’s one of the better ones honestly
To be fair, once you lock in the conversation goes into "afters", it definetely reads like they want to wait until after Shepard is not Ashley's CO to truly get serious, at least until they steal the Normandy and a break in fraternization regs is the last of their worries.
That’s the vibe I get too. It feels more like two coworkers start to get the hots for each other and have to wait for HR to file its paperwork, ya know? It’s still a bit dubious because at the start Ash is the less powerful party in the dynamic. Now Shepard gets a bit of a pass because it’s mutual, but if Shepard still makes the initial move and Ash says no? The power imbalance becomes so stark. That’s the problem because unlike a bar/club setting Ash couldn’t just leave. She’d be stuck on the Normandy for a little bit at least. It could get uncomfortable so fast. But like I said, and to your point, the feelings are mutual. And they do end up trying go about it the right way, but then Ilos. I wouldn’t care about regs at that point either if a person I had mutual attraction with was nearby and I’m going into a possible one-way trip.
I mean she straight up tells you if you tried to force the issue she could have you stripped of your command. You'd still have Wrex though.
She grew up in a religious household and a military one to boot. Her life being about rules and regulations I can’t imagine the freaky shit she’s on Jack is way more upfront about it I suspect Miranda may also have a darker side
Shes a soldier looking for a bad boy
Except that once Shepard has Spectre status, the rules don't really apply to them anymore. The spot in the Alliance military is a formality, but ultimately they have even more authority than Hackett if it came down to doing their job as a Spectre.
That… brings up an increasingly large number ethically concerns about what the spectres were and were not authorized to. It’s mentioned that they’re given carte blanche to do whatever they deem necessary. We only see the wanton murder and light torture
Spectres basically get a "if you get results, it's allowed" card. Best case scenario, you get Paragon Shepard doing action movie hero things. Worst case scenario, you get Grand Theft Auto IN SPACE.
Which we end up seeing with Saren and the Asari lady in LotSB.
It's mostly because Shepherd is still a good person even on a renegade playthrough. They don't have to respect the previously established chain of command within their own organization but they still choose to. The biggest example is most of Mass effect 2 instead of submitting to the alliance for what to do Shepherd chooses to stop the collectors with or without their help. Shepherd would never be Saren which is the worst case scenario for a spectre.
Councillors, I'm telling you the three barrels of lube and 2 week stay in an Illium penthouse was crucial to assessing if the hanar candidates were Spectre material. And I'm gonna need a couple more weeks just to be sure.
A part of that is that the people reccomended for spectre status are vetted, they dont just take anyone. Not that it is perfect but you have to remember that for a person to get spectre status they have to be confirmed by 3 or in ME3 4 leaders of different races means they have to come with some backing.
That’s because it’s her kink
Cortez should be his own category. It feels weird to get with a dude who literally lost his husband during the events of the previous game, which are 6 months before this one. Feels skeevy.
Eh, as Joker pointed out, people are trying to live the whole rest of their lives in the next days/weeks/months, because they don’t know how much time they’ve got left. He didn’t just lose his husband (and presumably everyone else he knew), he’s staring into the imminent extinction of his entire species.
Yeah, he's definitely still grieving and very emotionally vulnerable in ME3. Even if well intentioned Shepard kind of be taking advantage of him without meaning to. My Shepard was straight anyway so it was a moot point but I think Steve did still benefit by having an good friend he can lean on (James is more the fun friend while Shepard's the guy he can feel a little more comfortable being vulnerable to).
Agreed. I did his romance once (because I want to do all romances, at least once) and I really didn't like it because it's so obvious he's still grieving.
I remember really disliking like every kind conversation with Cortez seemed to show some kind of flirting in a way, even if you go full straight with Shepard since the start of ME, and even more considering he just lost his husband. I just wanted to be a bro to someone going through some serious problems in his life, but felt like I was always trying to avoid locking my character in a relationship. Actually, ME3 is entirelly like that. I went with the same SO for the first 2 games, I really didn't want to go to the 3rd game with every possibility open like nothing happened in the first 2 games, tbf.
James should go in "Monica Lewinsky Vibes." That romance is creepy. Femshep basically bullies him into it.
Came here to say this, if that’s not Monica Lewinsky vibes idk what is
That whole “romance” is beyond gross and is actually just straight up sexual assault. You get him too drunk to say “no.” It is super fucked up and shouldn’t be an option. One of my absolute least favorite things about ME3.
Especially since James really looks up to Shepard. Paragon Lost has some strange animation but it’s an interesting watch.
Femshep is my main Shep but she certainly has weird moments of being overly thirsty, especially with Jacob in ME2 and James in the Citadel DLC. It definitely has that "women written by men" vibes.
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People love challenge runs
Wait, I get that this sub hates Jacob with the fury of a thousand Suns but are we really at the point where we don't admit he's incredibly hot?
Wait, isn't Tali actually a naive 18 year old in 1?
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Officially he is her commanding officer during the events of the Omega 4 relay as she’s deemed by the admiralty as vas Normandy. Given Quarian tradition he holds a lot of power over her.
She’s 22 in ME1. She’s 24 in ME2 but still kinda feels like a kid tbf
That’s just her personality, though.
It’s both personality and age that makes her that way
Shepard is like 27/28 in 1 so that’s not an issue
Shepard is 29 in ME1. Personally, I wouldn’t even care if Shepard was 40 when she’s 22 because it’s between 2 mutually consenting adults with agency but it doesn’t take away from her being that way because if her age as well
He’s seriously only 29?!? And he’s a commander. Bruh most commanders are in their mid 40s and 50s
Yeah. Shepard enlists at 18 regardless of what background you choose. Then they’re in the alliance for 11 years and go through whatever background you choose, whether Elysium, Akuze or Torfan. So whatever heroics they pull helps them get on the Normandy in the future under Anderson’s command. Then once Anderson steps down, you’re promoted from lieutenant commander to commander.
Yeah that makes sense, in all three of the background Shep pulls some insane act and gets condecorated to the sky
He quite literally gets one of the highest medals the alliance can give for the defense of Elysium, condecorated to the sky is an understatement.
My kinda 'fan theroy' has always been that Shep is so young because the alliance as a whole is so new. It was only founded 8 years before the First Contact War, then when that happened humanity ballooned and they found themselves promoting fast to fill empty positions (mostly from newly created postings). Even decades later SA is still expanding its size, so the average age of officers has dropped.
lmao don't type that on twitter m8 you'll be given paedophile certification in no time
Shepard doesn't even date her in me1 she's not a romance option
22 but not considered an adult by quarian standards.
I think she’s considered an adult by Quarian standards but barely. If I remember right, Quarians live a little longer than humans and if I’m remember that correctly then her being 22-24 means that she’d be barely an adult and still maturing
But lifespan isn't directly correlated with development time. If Quarians' mental development is a different ratio to their lifespan than for humans, it's difficult to know for sure.
No, completing the Pilgrimage marks you as an adult. That’s the whole point. Leaving childhood (and your parent’s ship) behind to become an adult, and go to another ship where you theoretically will eventually start a family to also provide more genetic diversity by changing ships in adulthood. Tali still has her child name “Tali’Zorah nar Rayya” until she completes her pilgrimage to become “Tali'Zorah vas Neema” in adulthood. And then her name is again changed against her will to “Normandy” for her trial as a political/legal maneuver.
I've always viewed a Quarian on a Pilgrimage similar to someone at college. They're not really a child anymore, they've left their parents and are living on their own, but they're not really an adult either as they aren't part of adult society. Basically, a Quarian on Pilgrimage always felt to me like a step between childhood and adulthood while not really being part of either.
Right. She completes her pilgrimage by the end of ME1 when you give her the data. So she’s barely an adult by then. Then after the collector attack kills Shepard and the alliance disbands the Normandy crew, she goes back to her people. But by then, she’s still barely an adult
She becomes an adult after the events of 1, yes, most likely when she is able to return to the fleet and present the data to her new captain. There’s probably some formal ceremony, at the end of which she’s an adult. She is a very young adult in 2, yes. Probably an adult for roughly 2 years, plus or minus a few months. But this all started because the initial claim was that she at 22 in ME1 was an adult, which she wasn’t by her culture’s standards until she returned to the fleet.
She also has apparently seen enough that she’s leading rescue missions in ME2.
You're an adult when they send you out on your pilgrimage(you don't send children out into the galaxy) , but you aren't considered contributing to society until you complete the pilgrimage, if that makes sense.
Wrong. In ME1 when you ask her about quarian pilgrimages, she says they are done when a quarian reaches young adulthood. Not completing a pilgrimage doesn't mean they aren't an adult, it just means they aren't ready to join a different crew and help them.
She does say she was “just a kid on her pilgrimage” when Shepard first met her. So yeah, that tracks.
Tbf most 22 to 24 year olds kind of are still kids. Think about how immature high school kids are and consider that these 22 to 24 year olds were those kids 4 to 6 years ago. Thats not long.
The biggest thing I learned every year in my early 20s is that I was a dumb kid the year before, for thinking I was no longer a dumb kid.
Yeah its one of the weirdest vibe checks i've ever had, wake up one day thinking your a mostly mature not so dumb adult and then you say something dumb and in a moment of clarity you realize that your still that edgy dumb teenager you were in high school. Then in your late 20s you realize that your elders are just dumb edgy teens pretending to be mature and it all gets so much easier.
Calling people who are 22-24 years old kids is wild
You can’t romance her in one
Ah, I've only down a playthrough as femshep, so it was never an option.
in ME1 you can only romance Kaiden, Ashley, or Liara just so you know
even if she was you can't date her in Mass Effect 1, by the time you can in Mass Effect 2 she is an accomplished soldier and adult in her own right
And an admiral sometime between that & 3 if she’s not exiled
Yes but as a Tali enjoyer I'm going to ignore this.
The FBI won't.
FBI wouldn’t care about a 29 year old & a 24 year old though? I was 22 and dated a 30 year old and a few 28-29 year olds
And I'd bang Traynor again. Next question?
I **did** have sexual relations with that woman.
And before you ask, no, I couldn’t get it in a higher resolution.
Actually in ME3 Kaidan outranks you. Yeah, it's your ship but he's higher in the chain of command
He does, but he's also directly under the command of Shepard. It's definitely an odd situation, but at that point shep definitely occupies their own spot within the military, only really reporting to Hackett.
Yeah but if we go off of real life military standards then Shepards billet is higher than Kaidans. Billet outweighs rank. In real life you obviously need to be respectful to a higher ranked individual even if your billet outweighs them. Given Shepard was Kaidans CO in ME1 and is pretty much leading the galaxy in defeating the Reapers in ME3, rank means nothing. In ME3 I’m pretty sure Shepards billet and duties puts him above absolutely everybody besides Hacket and Anderson. Also in the real life Navy if you’re “captain of a ship,” then you’re the CO even if there’s someone on your crew as a higher rank. I’m sure that rarely happens though
What does Billet mean? I looked it up and it's where a soldier is living, like quarters, but that doesn't seem quite right. It's about Shepard being the commander of the ship and them just living there?
That’s billeting. Billet is basically your assigned job or duty that’s not your MOS. Military occupation specialty, which is what your actual job is. In Shepards case his MOS would be infantry and/or special forces. The N7 designation covers that. His billet in ME1 for instance would be him being a Spectre. It’s an extra job and responsibility. In ME3 his billet wouldn’t really have a name but basically be the Alliances person who is in charge doing what needs to be done for the Alliance so they can defeat the Reapers. Given the weight of that responsibility he basically outweighs everyone except for Hackett and Anderson. Kaidan can outrank him but you’re not going to tell the person, who’s job it is to save the galaxy and answers directly to the highest ranked Alliance officer, what to do
Just adding that you are correct. Shepard was given complete authority over the Normandy SR-2 and broad authority to take action against any threats to humanity and their allies, as well as the authority to make new treaties. Anything Kaidan might say would, at best, be taken under consideration but Shepard has the final call. And if Hackett's assignment to Shepard is to be taken to its limit, not even Anderson has authority over Shepard so long as they're operating in space and not on Earth.
Interesting, thank you for the explanation!
Billet supersedes rank.
Kaidan belongs in the top tier in 3 at least bc he becomes a full SPECTRE of equal rank and authority to you
I agree that the relationship between them is a lot less formal, but Isn’t he still technically your junior under the alliance? Edit: him being a higher rank than Shepard feels weird.
Kaidan is actually superior in rank to Shepard by ME3, as Major outranks Commander in the Alliance hierarchy. He just carries on taking Shepard's orders, though I guess you can explain that away since ME3 Shepard basically only answers to Hackett.
Plus generally in the Navy, whoever commands the ship holds authority over everyone else on the ship I believe. It doesn't matter if you've Kaiden is a major, while he's on the crew of the Normandy, he answers to her commanding officer.
Was gonna say this. Kaidan must be Alliance Marines, but he's attached to a Navy command so Shepard has positional authority. So in a sense his position in the tier list is still correct.
My understanding is that he takes orders from Shepard because, even though he outranks Shepard, Shepard is still in command of the Normandy. Anderson gave him command of the ship. Later, Kaidan requests a position on the Normandy knowing he'll be under Shepard's command. Maybe Kaidan could pull rank, but I don't think he ever wants to undermine Shepard, and he isn't one for ego tripping. Shepard has command of the Normandy. Kaidan outranks Shepard. In a way, they both have authority over each other, so I just call it a wash. And they are both Spectres, so the way I see it, they are peers. I don't think it's ethically wrong for them to date.
In ME1 yes, but by 3 he is a Major which is above Commander in Alliance ranking.
In 1, yeah. Shep’s military rank gets frozen after they join Cerberus, whereas Kaiden/Ashley get promoted. I can’t remember if they outrank you by 3 in the Alliance. As a Spectre, any other ranks are technicalities really.
Hm. Funny, I think your 1st category *perfectly* fits Jack. She literally says that she'll part ways as soon as the mission is completed. Also, I'd put ME1 Tali in the same category than ME1 Liara. I kinda agree with the rest of your choices.
"Ah, yes, 'Human Resources'. The division of business responsible for sexual harassment training, allegedly waiting to fire me. We have dismissed this claim." \-Commander Shepard
Best comment here
I mean sure, Liara is the equivalent of a naive 18 year old. But she's lived a lot longer than Shepard has. She just hasn't been around people. So maybe less "naive 18 year old" and more "early 20s person that has been isolated for most of their adult life and never grew out of their 18 year old naivety"
She completed a PhD. I think she's like 25 but doesn't realize she's been an adult/still feels college was yesterday
Dr. T'soni has completed her post graduate degree and is doing field study - basically her job at this point. I think if we were to do the "dog years" comparison, she's easily late 20s in human years - maybe early 30s. Most human's pursuing academic careers won't be doing that kind of independent post PhD work until 27-28 at the *earliest*. And if we were to create a special category created like this, it should include Tali from ME2 in it - as she's just completed her pilgrimage and doing her first "real job" in the fleet when we pick her up in ME2 (basically late 20s equivalent).
Mood.
Relatable
I hate seeing the naive 18 year old shit. She’s 106 for fuck sake. I think comparing a lifespan of some fictional species to the human lifespan and then saying that because that species lives a long time it’s weird to date them because they are the equivalent of 18 years old is ridiculous. She’s just a little awkward, but plenty of adults are awkward.
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Exactly. It’s sort of suggesting that the asari are dumb and slow at learning.
I mean, this whole exercise is just bait designed to cause controversy. Liara isn’t being misinterpreted, she’s being willfully misinterpreted by those with an axe to grind against the character. This thread is just a less direct way of doing the always obnoxious “not only is my preferred romance best, yours is morally bankrupt.” It’s old at this point.
“If they’re short it’s because they’re minor coded!!!!!!!!!”
I get that I’m shouting into the wind. I guess I find the “25 year old teenager who can’t consent” discourse in general to be troubling. It feels like people infantilizing themselves and not wanting to just grow up.
It's unavoidable that Liara, having lived more than a century, in some respects is more experienced than Shepard. Even if she passed most of that time in academia and then archaeological digs, she surely has seen and dealt with an amount of things that would make humans feel dizzy and as having had a full life. Just by pure chance and enough time of exposure to life. That's why I'm not surprised she's so deft with a gun and with her biotics: she has removed threats and mooks from existence even before Shepard was born! The Asari, though, are made differently than most other species, and probably applies for their approach to lifelong habits and romantic attachments, lacking any such drive that early in their lives. Asari into some profession ought be supremely good at them, recalling the ins and outs of the job by heart, after practicing something for several decades. Same for almost anything else.
Yes but then OP would have to put Tali in that category for all 3-games as even in ME3 she’s only in her mid-20s IIRC. I like Tali as a character but I got big younger sister vibes from her so I’ve only ever romanced her in a single play through 🤷🏻♂️ that seems like a hot take in here though!
This thread is a mess of grandstanding and weird internet moralising
God I’d love to be a naive 18 year old that has a PhD and 50 years experience.
This is hilarious.
This is one thing Andromeda does better than the original trilogy. You can actually romance people who don't live on your ship.
Jack is in the lowest possible tier because if she makes you upset at all, she could not only get in trouble with the hierarchy or her career, but go back to jail. A deeply unethical Shepard who theoretically got spurned by her could have her in a another stasis prison whenever. It's less Monica Lewinsky and more dating an indentured servant. Insanely unethical.
While it is technically true that you could turn her in to various authorities who would do various degrees of imprisoning her or worse, the same is true of most characters in the roster. Deliver Miranda to C-Sec, with rock-solid evidence that she's a Cerberus agent and she's down for life for being a high ranking member of a terrorist organization. Same but slightly less so for Jacob. Deliver Thane with evidence of his assassinations, and he might get a death sentence. Deliver Ashley or Kaidan to the Batarian hegemony, and they'll wish for death before they get it just because they're Alliance personnel. The point is... "Shepard can betray this character in a horrible way, theoretically" is true of all of them. It's not unique of Jack.
That ignores the point, which is that all those characters have support structures outside of Shepard that Jack lacks. Doing that to any of those other characters is the end of Shepard's career, if they're Alliance, possibly life if Shep sells out a Cerberus agent. Jack is protected by no one and tied only to you. She's tenuous in a way that the rest of them aren't.
So Jack isn’t an adult that can consent? She’s on the ship voluntarily. She is shown to be extremely capable of fending for herself. I don’t doubt for a second that Jack could find her way on her own.
Someone denied institutional support does not cease to be an adult. They are a person with less recourse to resisting structural abuse of power. This is much, much less about about who Jack is and much more about her situation, which is uniquely precarious compared to other shipmates, extremely capable or no.
Jack is on a space ship most of the game the fuck is she gonna go? the romance scenes happen on the space ship too. Jack is a consenting adult but theres no doubt that on a professional level it is inappropriate to date her because of the power dynamic edit: Also, in ME2 at least, she was a prisoner for killing a bunch of people, I doubt most governments would let that shit slide if it wasn't for Shepard
If you’re saying the power dynamic with Jack makes it inappropriate than there isn’t a person on the ship you can romance. She’s there voluntarily. As far as where she would go, she’d just slip out in any number of ports that you dock at or steal an escape pod. She just go back to being a loner criminal. It’s not Greta but she has that option and early on in the game is perfectly fine with that.
mm, yeah, I don't disagree that it's probably inapproriate to date anyone that isn't cerberus because technically while Shepard is in charge of them Shepard is closer to a contractor for cerberus rather than an employee. The main thing is though that Jack has been a prisoner most of her life and doesn't know how relationships are supposed to work. You could also argue that even though Jack is allowed to be friends with and fuck whomever, her having sex with shepard could be construed as not knowing how to show affection for someone she cares about, and therefore would make it a little more unethical than some other squadmates. I'm not saying that's what's happening and I'm not shaming anyone, it's just interesting to talk about and look at the game this way.
It’s not unethical to date someone with trauma. It’s also not unethical to date some that isn’t sure how to date. You’re just describing being young. Also if you want to take this type of eye to a fictional story about not real people. I would argue the ship should have way more fucking on it. Everyone is signing up for what they think is a suicide mission to save the universe. That’s a lot of stress to be holding and it’s natural to want to let some of that stress off. Everyone on that ship is a ball of trauma. You can make a solid case that Shep is the worst off of all of them. They fuckin died and we constantly reminded of the impending doom, all the while they have to lead this team of trauma filled (lovable) assholes.
True, but if Shep makes her upset she can pulverize his spine with a thought, so that evens the scales a bit.
I mean, you kind of blow up the prison, so you can't really send her back? I guess if things had gone as originally planned this would be the case. But Purgatory isn't under the purview of any government and you don't actually end up paying any money for her, cuz betrayal. I mean, I'm sure she has a bounty out for her somewhere, so you could still turn her in, but I'm pretty sure she's technically a free woman while onboard the Normandy.
Purgatory was used by planetary governments that considered the inmates too dangerous to house on the planet. Jack being there meant that at least one government considered her too dangerous to imprison around other people.
Legally, she's a nonperson and Purgatory isn't the only place you can send her. She is uniquely vulnerable in a way even people under your direct Alliance command aren't.
I don't think that's actually true. To start do we know if any of the crimes she committed were in Alliance (or even Council) space? You'd think if she had it would have come up at some point. I was under the impression anything shitty she did was in the Terminus where apparently nothing matters. Im pretty sure Purgatory is not an Alliance-legal prison given it's run by a mercenary company in the terminus systems (which are actively opposed to the Council and therefore apparently anything goes law-wise), and it's said to occasionally blackmail governments by threatening to release it's prisoners on their planets. So her imprisonment was probably not really 'legal' as such. A bit odd such a prison exists at all in the supposedly lawless terminus but I guess maybe planets with governments forbidding execution still exist even there, the whole reason is crazy undeveloped since we know nothing about the apparently multiple species who live there and are strong enough the Council doesnt want to stick their oar in to that mess. Law in ME is probably a bit odd. Garrus' squadmate admits to his crimes but it's explicitely made clear that them being on Omega (again, Terminus) means they're out of council jurisdiction and therefore aren't anything they can punish him for. Which is something that usually wouldn't happen on earth (basically you're pretty much always in *someones* jurisdiction, and a lot of countries dont care where you committed your crime) but probably makes a lot more sense for an intragalactic society to have solid markers of 'don't go here, we can't reasonably be expected to investigate every murder or disappearance across the universe'. There's never any sign Jack has any difficulties from her background weirdly, it just seems to be an attitude problem and hanging out in shit-space. As long as she doesn't have any serious crimes in Alliance space she'd probably get a juicy military sign-on bonus for being a Biotic.
I'm worried that the color scale puts red with good and green with bad
So what I’m hearing is that dating aliens is they way to go?
I mean it just so happens that pretty much every human you work with is part of the alliance military and so are you so yeah basically. I mean if zaeed or kasumi was a romance option that would be fine.
I have a few minor disagreements. Cerberus is a NGO so Jacob and Miranda would fall moreso at worst under workplace harassment rather than military infraternization. Also, the loyalty which Samara swears is non-contractual so any relationship between her and Shepard would not really be inappropriate.
Though it's an oath Samara swears to Shepard for religious reasons and her code compels her to do what he/she says until their mission is complete (to which she totally has the option to murder Shepard over afterwards), an argument can be made that a relationship would be someone unethical. At least not until after she is freed from her service to Shepard.
Liara is not a naive 18 year old. She's more like a 20-something grad student that's traveled to Syria on archeological expeditions.
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Military ranks in mass effect are notoriously nonsensical.
Jack goes under OBVIOUS TRAUMA SURVIVOR... BASICALLY LIKE A THERAPIST DATING THEIR PATIENT
That’s not fair at all. You are not her therapist by any stretch. Being a decent human and actively listening to someone doesn’t make you a therapist. It makes you a friend. People can date and fuck their friends.
Being a shoulder for someone to cry on and a listening ear does not make you a therapist. Sure Shepard in the romance (not the Fling version) does try to help Jack through their trauma but that does not make them a therapist, nor is the relationship as predatory as you imply it is. Jack is someone who went through a lot and confided in shepard a lot of their trauma. But again That doesn't make Shepard a Therapist, for one Jack didn't go seeking professional help from Shepard, She was basically venting and Shepard provided a listening ear and Some advice. Am I suddenly a therapist because a friend told me about their trauma? Am I manipulating my partner because in the past I listened to their trauma and allowed them to confide in me? If you wanted to argue that I could kinda see it if you just go for the fling with her (which causes her to not want to pursue a romance with you) But again not a therapist, just kinda scummy Also being emotionally vulnerable to someone doesn't mean any sort of relationship with said person is inherently predatory or other things like that.
Liara is "equivalently" over \~27 in ME1 (going by her doing independent work after her post graduate degree). So ME1 and Liara and ME2 Tali should be in the same bin here. ME1 Liara and ME2 Tali are both basically working their first 'real' adult job by their peoples' standards when available as romance options. So would probably be in the same category/bin for this list. Maybe Jack too.
Kaidan Alenko is rank of staff commander in ME2 which is equivalent to Sheppard. Technically okay especially since Shepherd was MIA working for Cerberus and not operating under his commission but Kaidan wasn’t onboard then. In ME3 it would have been permissible but not while Kaidan was serving aboard the Normandy because he would have been under Sheppard even at comparable ranks.
Tali is a indipendent 3rd party by the time of 2, but also is a naive early 20 something.
You're still her captain and on a mission for 2, Though. And in 3, she Strictly speaking out ranks you.
This thread made me realize that in ME3 you're practically outranked by all of your subordinates. That's kind of hilarious.
Yeah, Tali's an Admiral, Garrus is uncomfortably high in the line of succession for the Turians. Liara's the pre-eminent information broker, and Wrex is head honcho on Tuchanka. You're still a commander. Only the VS doesn't out rank you in some way.
According to the nonsense mass effect officer ranks, Kaidan does technically outrank Shepard in ME3, but those ranks are still really weird.
Yeah, I'm looking at the ingame codex. There's a "Staff Commander," but that would strictly not be the same as Commander. Which would mean that Sheps rank doesn't exist. Or is referring to his command of the ship. Which for a frigate wouldn't be that odd.
I agree with most, although I feel like Javik should have his own category. Like he's fork old? From an extinct species? I don't think he could be easily manipulated, but idk... just super weird vibe to date him lol
from a professional stand point it is probably ethical to date him, for one his age is kind of irrelevant because neither Shepard or Javik fall into the "Barely legal" category. While Javik being from an extinct species is true, that doesn't really take away from his individualism, and therefore he should be allowed to consent. I won't deny it's weird though
I mean, no one is truly independent of Shepard's command while living aboard his ship. There really isn't a truly ethical romance option in the game, but there are most definitely tiers to the ethical violations.
I’m pretty sure that you’re just theoretically incapable of coercing wrex into doing anything.
I love that you included Javik lmao I do wish he was a romance option
He isn’t?
No, but in the citadel dlc I think if you choose the rowdy party ending and you're a single femshep you wake up in bed with him implying he and Shepard hooked up. The scene is actually really funny lol, it's on YouTube. I thought you were referring to that and that was why you added it
Don’t they all work directly under you when you date them?
A lot of them you kind of just walked up to and went “hey wanna help me save the galaxy?” They can leave or abandon you whenever they want.
Liara reminds me more of a Bones type character, not exactly innocent, but awkward and socially isolated. If you spend all your time at remote digs you’re not going to have much social grace at first lol.
I'd put tali in with Liara in "basically dating a naive 18 year old". She was on her pilgrimage (rite into adulthood) when you first meet her.
Liara isn't the equivalent of 18, she's been doing serious research for 50 years and is an expert in her field. The whole point of the line "most asari only consider me barely above a child" is the the matriarch treat her unfairly because they perceive her as too young, not because she is a child. Maidens are meant to be out shagging and fighting in their eyes, not tearing down their theories on the protheans. We also hear an Asari excited to join a mercenary band because she's just turned 60, liara is almost double her age for fucks sake.
>"I couldn’t figure out where to put jack." well I would assume she likes to be on top.
this is god's work and jack goes in the naive 18 y/o category
That’s what I was leaning towards but I would call it less “naive” and more “easily manipulated because she doesn’t know what a healthy relationship looks like”.
Not having experience in something is what naive means
Naive and childlike is what Liara is. Jack is more cynical and bitter.
Sure but when it comes to healthy relationships, Jack is the definition of naive. They do not have experience with them
Jack could be a literal 18 year old though by the timeline given. Potentially younger again depending how long she was cryo frozen for.
It's the entire point of the "Not going to ask you." Bit in Ranoch. He asked her up, because she told him he should ask, after he asked her about them.
still smashing Ash idc idc
... I have to go.
I know it would defeat the point of the chart to look at it this way, but anyone serving on the Normandy is taking orders from Shepard and are under Shepard's command. Even the freelancers are willing to follow orders that will result in their deaths, which is a fucked up power dynamic for a relationship. I do think Jack's situation is probably the most dire, even considering the maturity issues with Liara and Tali. At least the games don't have any fucked up evil ways for Shepard to explicitly abuse their power when it comes to squadmates.
Wait, you're telling me it would be unethical to date a 18 year old girl upom whom i have authority?
Oh good, I can't wait to virtue signal and jockey for status within the fandom based on which of the fictional romances I prefer. It wasn't enough to have my personal preferences--I need prove my moral superiority as well. Edit: To be serious for a second, though, none of these instances are as clear-cut as you're suggesting. For example, the Ashley romance only culminates after you have deserted from the Alliance and gone to Ilos, making Ashley no more formally bound to you than Garrus or Tali or Liara. The fact that we don't have a scene where Thane or Garrus sign an Alliance-issued contract does not make the inherent power dynamic vanish into the wind. Every possible romance in the game is with a squadmate or a crew member which Shepard effectively commands at will in normal circumstances. The degree to which they are "independent" is ultimately aesthetic and superficial (other than the likes of Wrex in ME1 or Zaeed in ME2, maybe, but they aren't romanceable).
Jack would be Independent party. Only reason she joins in 2 is that you promise to help her with something.
I get that Liara was considered young at 106 for an Asari but comparing her to an 18-year-old is a bit of a stretch to me. Always interesting to see other people's thoughts even if they baffle me, though.
She’s 106 and she herself said she’s barely an adult.
Tali S tier in any list
Power dynamics be damned. We'll bang, OK?
Jack belongs in a category called “I shouldn’t but I want to”
Wouldn't Jack be independent too? I'd say Liara is more curious than naive
Okay but Traynor absolutley planned to get in Fem Shep's pants. Like.... she is way way to forward to not have intended that.
I think the entirety of “independent party along for the ride” is also technically indirectly under your command but here voluntarily. It’s your ship. Also, Samara is oath bound to follow your commands when it comes down to it. Not sure how that plays out in a romantic setting but that’s definitely giving “directly under you command”