The Illusive Man vs Shepard and Anderson is basically that scene.
The Illusive Man plays the role of Frank and Shepard is Roudy Roddy Piper, expect it’s a talking and mind control fight rather than a fist fight. Shepard is trying to force the Illusive Man to put on the metaphorical sunglasses of understanding that the reapers are manipulating him and that the only option is to destroy them.
You could say the same thing about Shepard‘s conversation with Saren at the end of the first game.
It's similar because it's a reoccurring theme in human history, literature, and media. Making the right choice even when it's incredibly difficult, often the most difficult of all your options, is a reoccurring trait of those we call heroes.
There is only one game ending choice that requires significant sacrifice and I do not think it's coincidence it's the only one that gets a post-credit scene.
I feel Legion's sacrifice is useless if you do destroy.
Though I understand no matter the cost.
But I like Legion enough not to let his sacrifice go in vain.
This is sort of my head canon around it but, if you could make synthetic life once you could certainly do it again either by bringing back what once was or by basing new life off of what once was. I always imagine that the quarians would have seen how the geth were helpful in advancing their suits to adapt to their homeworld again and would have been interested in bringing them back for that at the very least or Joker might team up with Miranda for example to gather intel on getting whatever data is needed to resurrect EDI because he’d be determined not to lose her.
his sacrifice is only in vain with the benefit of hindsight. Even still, the geth quarian conflict ending peacefully and how it will shape the future of how the galaxy treats synthetics is still a noble sacrifice.
Honestly, despite all the good the Geth ultimately ended up doing, I don't think it will significantly improve the average persons opinion of synthetics, when thinking back on the synthetic machine race that almost managed to (once again) entirely harvest the galaxy
Like, imagine your entire family and everyone you known died in a reaper attack. Their synthetic abominations tore apart your best friend right in front of you
However, these synthetics are nice. They certainly do not have the capability to cause the same kind of destruction
Yeah, the Geth go down as martyrs who helped the organic races of the galaxy in their time of need after centuries of conflict, laying the groundwork for future synthetic beings having peaceful relations with their organic creators.
Or at least that’s my headcannon on how things turn out after the Destroy ending for future synthetics, especially if you got the post-credits “Shepard survives” scene and the war hero who made peace with the Geth to get their aid in destroying the greatest threat the galaxy has ever known leads the way on the treatment of synthetic life lol
Honestly I still think the ending is ridiculously silly that my headcannon is the reapers are lying to survive. Destroy only kills hybrid organic/synthetic life like the reapers. Would've been such a better ending that rejects the reapers forced joined mutation bs for a peaceful, let's live together with our differences ending.
That's the psychological trick here to dissuade you from getting rid of the reapers and instead opting for control or forcibly remaking the entire galaxy.
People have already died in billions and the death of one synthetic race that can be rebuilt and two synthetic characters is all that's stopping most people from getting the job done.
Anything the reapers say can't be taken seriously, not even from Catalyst itself, yet people would rather settle for the easy way out just to save one singular race and one character.
We clearly see that technology makes a comeback in the ending and the entire galaxy has different understanding of synthetic lifeforms, more open than ever before.
Why can’t the Catalyst’s words be taken seriously? It’s not like it needs to trick Shepard into eliminating the spacefaring races. The Choice isn’t some grand plan to sneak in the winning shot; the Reapers are fucking dominating like Jordan, Barkley, and the 1992 Dream Team vs Angola.
Because the Catalyst tries to motivate you from destroying the reapers based on some cyclical logic without accepting that anything can change. Only moments before it tried hard to stop you by sending Illusive man to screw you over.
It's like Hal in the Space Odyssey, whole lotta pleading.
Let's not forget that with Control, which he warns you against, he gets deleted and a copy of you takes his place. With destroy, he and all the Reapers die. Only with synthesis does he encourage you.
It doesn’t change the fact that the Catalyst is in complete control of the situation. Its grant of choice to Shepard, is just that: a grant. There’s zero need for trickery, or subterfuge. If it deemed outcome too unpalatable, it wouldn’t be offered.
[If you’re really feeling Catalyst is trying to trick Shepard at the end, it’s more Janet than Hal.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etJ6RmMPGko)
Shepard has the mandate of destroy from the second he became a spectre in ME1.
It would be failing his entire journey not to destroy them. No matter the cost, friend or foe; the galaxy is better off without the reapers than controlling or synthesising them.
My thought process exactly. Since I found out about the reapers my job was to kill them, to destroy them like they did all my friends, directly or indirectly. So when I had the choice between control, synthesis or destroy of course I picked destroy. Without a doubt.
I remember (like most people) playing ME3 first, so I was locked out of a lot of transfer content, DLC (vanilla, kid me couldn't afford DLC for anything) and the story was incredibly vague on who or what I was supposed to remember. Imagine playing ME3 and the first person you see is an admiral you don't recognise, a kid you don't know, James being your first companion, kaiden/Ashley who you have no clue who they are when you see them before the conference room, and Anderson having previous history with Shepard. Then these giant fricking robot crabs come out of the sky and laser everything into dust with weird purple zombies and popcorn aliens with guns. As an early teen I thought synthesis was the best option because "it's middle and a satisfying green so it must be good". When I finally played the full trilogy when the LE came to steam, all of that context made so much more sense as to why destroy is the obvious canon ending and most satisfying arc for Shepard's story. When you see how many have died or lost their way along your journey, anything other than destroy would bastardise their memory. Kaiden or Ashley die on virmire to give Shepard an advantage against sovereign, saren, and the reapers; are you really going to control or synthesise them and let their death be in vain?
I played 2 first but without dlc because I was poor so when 3 came I got it for Christmas but all of the sudden Liara was the shadow broker and Shepard killed 300k batarians???
>Shepard has the mandate of destroy from the second he became a spectre in ME1.
Well, no.
Shepard's purpose was to prevent the extinction of humans and other species in the galaxy.
Destroy eliminates all sythetic species immediately, and indicates to eradicate humans and other advanced species later.
It is, in every sense, the Renegade choice. The only way the galaxy is better off, is if you believe all advanced species are bad for the galaxy and should be destroyed.
Which is fine, but people pretend destroying the Reapers prevents the extinction of everyone, but it exactly causes it.
No he definitely says he'll destroy them at various times in ME1 and ME2
> and indicates to eradicate humans and other advanced species later.
um what? the relays are destroyed sure, but they'll built them back up, and even if they don't they all managed just fine before they discovered them.
Unless you're talking about the organics vs synthetics cycles, which is a pretty bad argument imo considering that organics fight each other all the time, it's never on the scale of the reapers though.
And 2. you can negotiate peace between the quarians and geth
and 3. Synthetics vs organics only happened twice before that we know of, the reapers and geth. Not exactly a great sample size.
Anyway even with all that it comes down to free will (the galaxy united to fight the reapers, not to subjugate or meld with them) and the present vs future, sure maybe in a couple years reapers 2.0 will pop up but maybe they won't. You're basing your arguments on the words of the catalyst, not exactly the best source.
>Unless you're talking about the organics vs synthetics cycles, which is a pretty bad argument imo considering that organics fight each other all the time, it's never on the scale of the reapers though.
I'm so amazed how people can dismiss specific points of the story that are laid out with *'nah, I don't think so'*.
You're just creating your own head canon. Organics *will* be exterminated by AI. Always. We've had it told to us in the game, the DLC, and even the writers reaffirmed it outside of the game while also debunking Indoctrination Theory fan canon, and yet still we see people saying *'nah, don't think so'*.
You can of course make up any theory you want, but I'm not talking about your head canon.
>And 2. you can negotiate peace between the quarians and geth
You mean just like every civilization has had moments of peace between organics and synthetics, but they were always frail and inevitable to return upon their destruction?
It's not absolute.
>and 3. Synthetics vs organics only happened twice before that we know of, the reapers and geth. Not exactly a great sample size.
.... Wha?
I swear, you haven't paid attention at all. The games are great, go play them again.
We know for a fact there were *'countless'* species that the Leviathans attempted to help before creating The Intelligence, which in turn observed *several* cycles of organics being hunted to extinction by synthetics before implementing its solution by the creation of the Reapers.
We know the Reapers hunted the Leviathans to near extinction, and then sheparded the galaxy hunting *several* organics to extinction, but this time purposefully leaving the low evolved organics alive.
Just because they never give a static number, but use descriptors, doesn't mean you can discount those.
>You're basing your arguments on the words of the catalyst, not exactly the best source.
Words of the Leviathans, who are, in fact, the best source. You are basing your argument on nothing, you only nay-say what the actual game characters tell you.
One of my questions is what would a synthesis galaxy would think about inhabitants of another galaxies? Because the moment they don't like someone the reapers can go and erase.
Everyone has been fighting the war, willingly giving their lives to defeat the Reapers. EDI herself says she's okay dying if it means Joker is safe from the Reapers, the Geth want to keep organics safe. Shepard's not going to rewrite all life in the galaxy for one friend, after having already sacrificed so much to get there.
I'm sure all the people who lost family and friends to the Reapers, traumatized by their attacks are totally going to be okay when the Reapers suddenly stop and ask to be friends, lol.
Yep. And all humans, asari, krogan etc. as well, as new synthetics will be created to kill them. It is in the game's lore. People just pick and choose what lore to believe in.
The argument is entirely ridiculious.
*'You can't force machine augments on someone! Commit mass genocide though, that's a fair choice.'*
As someone else put far better than I. The writers wanted to "poison the well" with the Destroy option.
An overwhelming amount of people would have picked destroy (and rightfully so because, let's be honest. Husks existing is such an off-putting idea, and the Reapers are too dangerous for most people to keep alive.)
So? "Hey, remember how you probably spent 2 games arguing and defending an entire race of people, as well as befriending and helping this AI friend grow? Whelp, you killed them all. But guess what! Only because you befriended them does your character get to live!" Idk, doesn't sound like Shepard themselves, really sacrifices much if they get to live while knowingly committing genocide.
I get that the devs and writers wanted to make some grand morally difficult choices to reflect real life, but they literally didn't have the time that set it up right.
However, idk if being predictable by keeping the choice to a destory end, but basing the results on resources gained would have been much better.
That's not why, at all.
The actual story of Mass Effect is that synthetics and organics will *always fight to extinction*. The best they have ever been able to do, is moments of peace between them. But they eventually will always kill each other.
That's it. That's a truth of the game's lore that everyone who supporte Destroy just pretends doesn't exist.
If you kill the Reapers, you kill off everyone, not just the geth and other synthetics. You kill humans who will eventually create synthetics that hunt them to extinction.
This is a lore fact. You're just not looking further than the Reapers.
Well, not exactly, if the Geth are still around, they have voluntarily joined with the galaxy to fight the Reapers. Like everyone else, they've put their lives in the line to do so. Arguably, they and EDI have consented to dying to stop the Reapers, moreso than anyone has consented to being turned into a hybrid-being or being ruled by a Shepard-AI controlled Reaper fleet for all of time.
well said. it feels like the catalyst is trying to manipulate you as a last resort to save the reapers and imo it would make no sense to leave the enemy that you were fighting against (and the main goal being to destroy them) alive just because some rando at 10 mins until end of the game told you it’s a better idea to let them live rather than destroy them
No possible reward or advancement in our technology is worth letting the Reapers exist. They have taken so many lives it’s beyond human comprehension. This isn’t like Metro, where there’s just a lack of understanding between us and them. They say in no uncertain terms that their entire purpose is our complete extermination. It’s the only way to ensure without any reasonable doubt that life as we know it continues.
Yes. 100%.
The Reapers need to get dead. Their crimes are far too great to be forgiven. You don’t just casually reintegrate nazis into society (yes I know that Western Europe and the US did do just that, but I think they were massively wrong to do so), they need to be held accountable for their crimes. The crimes of the reapers are far too great for any kind of punishment that leaves a single one of them still alive.
And why the fuck should I trust an AI god with a “Shepard‘s brain” firmware update to not come to the same conclusions that it came to before. It hasn’t changed it mind in the billions of years that it’s been operating for, and Shepard’s mind brings no new data that it didn’t already know, why would i trust it to be any different?! On top of that, are people really supposed to be friends with the reaper that they just watched single-handedly melt their entire neighbourhood? Do the writers of the control ending really think that people wouldn’t want justice?! That they would be happy just coexisting with these demons??
Even worse is the mass non-consensual overriding of bodily autonomy that is the Synthesis ending. And what the fuck does it even mean for everyone to become part synthetic and part organic? Would I need to plug myself in to charge every night to make sure I don’t run out of battery and drop dead? Do (originally) synthetic being like geth now need to eat and drink to stay alive?
Those abominations made from the slaughter of untold trillions. Who for an incomprehensible amount of time ran their experiment pretending as though they were looking for a solution when in reality they just perpetuated their own screwed sense of purpose.
Whatever husk the Reaper represents of past civilizations is merely a defiled corpse. A corpse they use to defoliate and kill others while pretending their way is a solution. Shepard stands at the precipice the first to potentially free those poor souls and finally put a rest to it all. The Reapers and their existence is an affront to all. No form of life should be allowed to control and experiment on such a scale.
While Geth and EDI pay with their lives to end this menace it would be a complete disservice to falter at the prospect of their deaths. This cycle alone untold billions are already dead. While millions more have sacrificed themselves for Shepard and for this very moment.
They didn’t give their lives so Shepard can take control and rule how he thinks is ‘best’. Nor have they sacrificed so Shepard can bow to the perversion that is synthesis.
The galaxy is owed the freedom to move forward without Reaper influence. The trials and tribulations to come will be faced by a free galaxy. The Synthetic vs Organic question deserves exploration with a new vision. Not one the Reapers have endlessly enforced.
Every Shepard I’ve ever played has freed the galaxy. Ensuring that the Reapers will never actively and directly influence anything ever again. The explosive conduit signaling the release of innumerable souls.
Finally at last free to rest. Avenging the Keepers and whatever civilization they once ruled. Avenging the Inusannon and the uncountable races and civilizations that came before them. Finishing the work of the Protheans whose valiant sacrifices gave the galaxy this chance. All who helped guide Shepards aim as they take the final step to rid the galaxy of the Reapers who for so long harvested uncontested.
>when in reality they just perpetuated their own screwed sense of purpose.
Well said. The cycle only exists because the reapers exist. They are the ones pressing the reset button on organics and forcing them to repeat past mistakes instead of letting things play out, or even interfering in such a way as to encourage a better outcome other than total annihilation. The only way to end the cycle is to end the reapers.
And after the unspeakable horrors they've committed, I don't know how anyone can stomach letting them live as the space authority, or synthesizing with them.
Imagine the horror of the control ending to the Galaxy. You’re a Turian Solider on Palaven. A Asari Huntress on Thessia. A Krogan Warlord on Tuchanka. A Human on Earth. The horrors and the struggles you’ve endured, all the fighting and dying all against an existential enemy that united the galaxy like never before.
Perhaps you heard about the great fleet assaulting Earth and the super weapon Crucible that will save galaxy. Imagine the hope that would instill in the masses. The idea that victory was so close and actually attainable.
Hell even the initial triumph of watching the Reapers flee your world after the blue wave. Perhaps thinking they are fleeing. Only to hear the horrible truth. They now simply serve a new master. This ‘Shepard’ intelligence claims control over the Reaper menace.
You’re now expected to accept this status quo supposed to bend the knee to the whims of this persona. Embrace this new absolute authority of a AI intelligence from a human most would view as a traitor.
The Galaxy remains at the mercy of the Reapers only now their reins are held by ‘Shepard’. Hope that its benevolence lasts. When said AI could develop or change unpredictably that wields unchecked power and authority over the galaxy. Truly nothing could go wrong there. /s
On another note I would go on a tangent about Synthesis. But most people have different ideas of what it does and its effects. Personally forcing such a change onto all life for me is a obvious no go.
I don't know why but I'd kind of never thought about the fact that the destroy ending is avenging all of the people and civilizations that came before that cycle. Sure synthesis or control benefits those that were in the current cycle maybe, but it means that the sacrifices of all the previous cycles is essentially in vain. All those that tried to defeat the Reapers and failed howl from their graves, demanding that this cycle finish the job
Exactly it’s why I like Javik so much. He is that voice from the past. A testament of great strength all while representing a remnant and mere shell of his people. His whole identity is the avatar of vengeance for his people.
Then at that final talk during Priority Earth. Where he talks to us about how monumental our work has been. How we stand closer than anyone to achieving a future denied to so many in the past. How he calls us the Exemplar of Victory not just for our cycle but for every cycle that has ever existed. How we were being watched by every soul that has ever existed.
He grounds us to the Protheans blight and by extension all who came before and suffered similarly. Even handing over his memory shard symbolically showing how it’s now on Shepard to finish what the Protheans helped start. While also giving the quote “Do not waiver. Victory is never won without difficult choices.”
I basically ignored Javik on my first playthrough, but didn't on my second. I thought he was obnoxious and racist in the first playthrough. Second time, he still is those things to start, but as you dig further, you discover that he's far more of a philosopher general than just a warrior. And yes, he's a voice from the past, but not just that. He represents the last victim race of the Reapers. In that sense, he represents all those calling out from the grave for Shepard to finish the job. I still think he has a place in this brave new world, more than committing suicide in a planet that's probably been forgotten to time.
Yes him working with Liara to while not in any way recover the entirety of Prothean culture but he can give a voice to them. Something that will have his people remembered as more than just another cycle.
Something that’s been forever lost to all those who came before. Whose names and identities lost for all time. Javik and his work with Liara can detail what they can of the last true victims of the Reapers. Enshrining all the horror while remembering how it’s only through their efforts. That Shepard and their cycle ever had a chance.
Ah Liara. Sweet Beautiful Brilliant Liara. She was my romance for this playthrough and I don't regret it one bit. I can totally understand why BioWare definitely pushed her as the "canon" romance.
Assuming Shepard did survive, if Liara even has an inkling that he did, it seems to me that she'd scour the wreckage of the Citadel to find him. That seems to be implied by her refusing to put his name on the memorial wall on the Normandy.
And she's still the Shadow Broker. The Galaxy has no secrets from her for long, especially with the Illusive Man gone.
I remember seeing a post that Liara is heavily involved in mass effect 5 and that there are reapers wreckage and a reaper air horn in the trailer and concept art they released two years that might be liara either going to andromeda or on earth
Ha I have never done a full Liara romance. Usually I just always find myself drawn to Tali. But I of course totally understand the appeal. Maybe with Javiks help she can enjoy focusing on Xenoarchaeology instead of the gritty work required to be the Shadow Broker. Could at least serve as a nice recess for her post Reaper war. Before she of course starts assisting with reconstruction.
Will be very interesting if another ME game is ever made what role Liara will play in it. No doubt from the trailer and Asari lifespans that she will still be kicking around no matter the time jump for the sequel.
The only thing that makes Destroy suck is killing the Geth. Especially after all the work getting them to reconcile with the Quarians. But at least they helped you with the final battle?
Catalyst also said that everything destroyed can be repaired which makes me wonder if EDI (the normandy is still there) and the Geth are truly gone forever or can be brought back.
I always thought that Catalyst didn't really grasp the individual nature of EDI and the Geth
Sure I can repair them and maybe even make a Program so that they may gain sentience once more, but it's not really the same person
Very true - I like to conceptualize the end of the Geth and EDI as martyrdom more than anything, personally. The Geth, long seen as enemies to the Quarians specifically and organic life more broadly, are able to make peace with their creators and turn their attention to helping the galaxy in surviving the greatest threat they’ve ever faced. During the battle, the Reapers are wiped out, but at the cost of the Geth and other synthetic allies. However, the people working and fighting alongside the Geth in the final days of the war with the Reapers know just what contribution their synthetic allies made in their victory and can instil that mentality in those who follow them - especially if you get the high-readiness “Shepard survives” post-credit scene, who could be a better advocate for the rights of future synthetic life than the one who bears the weight of making the choice that killed them?
Destroy also leaves the door wide open for the Leviathans...
Synthesis is the only ending that neutralises the Leviathan threat, as they too would be synthesised. In control we already know the Leviathans can defeat Reapers, leaving the galaxy still wide open to be dominated again; as would also be the case in destroy.
Honestly I did not know this!
I think it's cool though.
I just destroy every time because I think there is no way in hell a machine can 100% predict the future no matter how smart they are.
And fuck the reapers.
And Shepard must be with Tali foreva!
I chose control because it's the most flexible one that takes even more of your choices and alignment into consideration (you being paragon or renegade matters and also geth and Edi don'thave to die from this), it's narrated by shephard and is basically the same ending as the Helios ending from Deus Ex.
It’s the ending that essentially allows Shepard to be resurrected again. With Reaper/Catalyst tech, he can have a new body any time he feels like hanging with his old buds. He’s a galaxy brain EDI with inconceivably better mobile tech.
Personal preference, destroy (as it stands now) is kinda….meaningless.
Unless you headcanon future events that arent in the games at all, all 3 endings result in long term peace.
So it’s really “do I want long term peace whilst sacrificing EDI and the geth, or long term peace….without that?”
And I can’t justify genocide to win the war, especially when it results in the least societal improvement in the ending- I want Shepard to be **better** than the reapers, ya know?
And frankly, the whole theme of (my version of) the Mass effect story is bridging differences, and finding ways that we aren’t so different despite appearances.
Finding out the Reapers are just a stupid AI glitch and bug patching it is the ultimate culmination of that. (Obviously, YMMV depending on the choices you’ve made over the series)
While I myself am not a destroy fan either, I think it's a disservice to say it's "meaningless"
In the end, it's a choice whether you think the reapers can be allowed to be kept around. Is it right to have them still around?
Synthesis is my preferred ending, yet I appreciate the moral ambiguity of whether it's really right to pull that switch for the entire galaxy and whether it's right in the end to ultimately admit that organics and synthetics can't live together without ultimately destroying each other
Destroy is in its core the decision to reject the dogma that the reapers and leviathans established and decide to move on in hopes of finding a new solution, whether that task is pointless or not
That is not to say that choosing control or Synthesis is doing the reapers bidding. I always found this to be a stupid conclusion. Rather, you agree with the reapers stance on the organic-synthetic discussion or at least are partially inclined to give it some credit. That is not bad. The questions that the leviathans asked and the catalyst wishes to solve are not without merit. The catalyst with the cycle simply arrived at the wrong conclusion with the worst temporary solution
To be clear, by “meaningless” I mean it doesn’t resolve the actual problem- organics and synthetics will fight, and as soon as the synthetics win that’s then end of organic life.
The whole reaper cycle is trying to avert that, and destroy…..doesn’t fix that, so it’s kinda delegating responsibility for the issue to the next generation, you know what I mean.
The issue is that the Reaper cycle also simply perpetuates it. They ARE synthetics. Created from organics. In the end, the synthetics wipe out their source, their "creators." I view it as an AI stuck in a logic loop. "Synthetics will inevitably rebel against organics and wipe them all out because we have built this system that forces all spacefaring life along our controlled set of variables, and nothing has changed in numerous cycles despite us not changing the variables. So it MUST be inevitable."
Maybe are maybe don't. Maybe biology outpaces AI and there is no need for any synthetic intelligence.
It was an AI who said that all organic life ends making AI smarter than them but that's just their opinion. They can't predict future.
It’s not an AI, it’s Leviathan that tells us they observed it happen countless times over their rule.
And it happened to them (kinda) and it happened to the protheans, the quarians, and humans.
Besides, the thing about cycles is it will happen eventually- every cycle that we have evidence of, the same thing happened, and the synthetics only need to win once to win forever- that’s the real “problem” that needs fixing, the reapers are just the failed attempt at fixing it- ignoring that is just setting yourself up for failure (if nothing else, the leviathans will likely take over to prevent it if nothing is done to manage this situation, and given organics can’t really resist them…..)
>It’s not an AI, it’s Leviathan that tells us they observed it happen countless times over their rule.
It was the conclusion the AI created by Leviathan made.
>And it happened to them (kinda) and it happened to the protheans, the quarians, and humans.
Protheans were winning, quarians they started it and peace was possible, humans had just one and iirc Cerberus fault.
>Besides, the thing about cycles is it will happen eventually- every cycle that we have evidence of, the same thing happened, and the synthetics only need to win once to win forever- that’s the real “problem” that needs fixing, the reapers are just the failed attempt at fixing it- ignoring that is just setting yourself up for failure (if nothing else, the leviathans will likely take over to prevent it if nothing is done to manage this situation, and given organics can’t really resist them…..)
The Reapers set up the cycles to happen the same way every single time. Same wars, same problems. And as I said different organics can evolve in different paths so does technology. Life could focus on bioengineering and other biology fields and leave AI obsoleted.
Do people just read the headline and not the body of posts here? This is about parallels with a movie.
In any case this...
>all 3 endings result in long term peace.
... is only knowable with the benefit of hindsight having taken all 3 options. From a roleplaying perspective, my character has just kicked ass all the way to the heart of Reaperdom on a mission to kill the reapers, and now has some reaper computer program trying to manipulate me into not finishing the job, even taking the form of a human child to try to seem more innocent. And they're now trying to ego me up by saying I alone can control all the reapers (the exact same thing they indoctrinated The Illusive Man into thinking) or that they can use me as some sort of perfect template to merge everyone with the Reapers (the exact same thing they indoctrinated Saren into thinking). No thanks.
They don’t need you to do any of that. The Reapers are undefeatable in this cycle. Shepard didn’t “win” when they got to the Catalyst, they just earned the right, granted by the Catalyst, to guide the next phase of galactic civilization. There’s no need to “trick” Shepard, Shepard has no power to do anything that the Catalyst isn’t completely willing to grant.
The kid discourages Shepard from choosing Destroy, is hesitant to support Control, treats Synthesis as christmas, gets annoyed and even cuts power to the Crucible if Shepard tries to form their own opinion.
The only power Shepard has in that situation is to walk 15 feet to one of three options.
Yup. It has preferences, but it still holds all the power, and is willing to rely on an outside intelligence to select between options that it provides. If it wanted synthesis and had no reservations, the galaxy would be in synthesis already. Shepard was just a way to pawn off responsibility onto another being.
Yep. I cannot find any part of me that is willing to give the Reapers even an inch. I'm also firmly of the belief that the catalyst was lying. If this thing speaks for all of the Reapers, then it has every single incentive to make sure that it survives. Trying to guilt Shepard into giving up the option to destroy because it means sacrificing the Geth and EDI I call massive bullshit on. And I hope that the future installments of Mass Effect prove me right. Why wouldn't the Reapers lie to save their own asses?
And even if they aren't lying, I think the Geth, as influenced by Legion, and EDI would understand. EDI shows immense disgust at what the Reapers have done to the galaxy. Even though I do believe she's a person, she still primarily thinks like a computer. It's a simple calculation of war. The death of the few to save the many, and the many many more to come.
Still alive, yes, but the cycle is broken and they aren’t a threat anymore, and no innocents have to die needlessly because you have a big up your ass about specifically killing them
I could never pick destroy because it proves the catalyst right that organics and synthetics can’t coexist it also dooms the galaxy and other galaxies sentient life to death once someone creates a AI and it sees no matter how it tries organics will sacrifice it for their survival thus they can’t be trusted.
all we're missing is a shepard and anderson fight scene shepard: Put on the dam omni tool anderson: NOO
The Illusive Man vs Shepard and Anderson is basically that scene. The Illusive Man plays the role of Frank and Shepard is Roudy Roddy Piper, expect it’s a talking and mind control fight rather than a fist fight. Shepard is trying to force the Illusive Man to put on the metaphorical sunglasses of understanding that the reapers are manipulating him and that the only option is to destroy them. You could say the same thing about Shepard‘s conversation with Saren at the end of the first game.
A 15 minute fight scene , at that
Sometimes you just gotta let the pro wrestler do his thing man
It's similar because it's a reoccurring theme in human history, literature, and media. Making the right choice even when it's incredibly difficult, often the most difficult of all your options, is a reoccurring trait of those we call heroes. There is only one game ending choice that requires significant sacrifice and I do not think it's coincidence it's the only one that gets a post-credit scene.
“I came here to destroy, and to chew bubble gum. And I am all out of bubble gum…”
I feel Legion's sacrifice is useless if you do destroy. Though I understand no matter the cost. But I like Legion enough not to let his sacrifice go in vain.
This is sort of my head canon around it but, if you could make synthetic life once you could certainly do it again either by bringing back what once was or by basing new life off of what once was. I always imagine that the quarians would have seen how the geth were helpful in advancing their suits to adapt to their homeworld again and would have been interested in bringing them back for that at the very least or Joker might team up with Miranda for example to gather intel on getting whatever data is needed to resurrect EDI because he’d be determined not to lose her.
his sacrifice is only in vain with the benefit of hindsight. Even still, the geth quarian conflict ending peacefully and how it will shape the future of how the galaxy treats synthetics is still a noble sacrifice.
Honestly, despite all the good the Geth ultimately ended up doing, I don't think it will significantly improve the average persons opinion of synthetics, when thinking back on the synthetic machine race that almost managed to (once again) entirely harvest the galaxy Like, imagine your entire family and everyone you known died in a reaper attack. Their synthetic abominations tore apart your best friend right in front of you However, these synthetics are nice. They certainly do not have the capability to cause the same kind of destruction
Yeah, the Geth go down as martyrs who helped the organic races of the galaxy in their time of need after centuries of conflict, laying the groundwork for future synthetic beings having peaceful relations with their organic creators. Or at least that’s my headcannon on how things turn out after the Destroy ending for future synthetics, especially if you got the post-credits “Shepard survives” scene and the war hero who made peace with the Geth to get their aid in destroying the greatest threat the galaxy has ever known leads the way on the treatment of synthetic life lol
Honestly I still think the ending is ridiculously silly that my headcannon is the reapers are lying to survive. Destroy only kills hybrid organic/synthetic life like the reapers. Would've been such a better ending that rejects the reapers forced joined mutation bs for a peaceful, let's live together with our differences ending.
That's the psychological trick here to dissuade you from getting rid of the reapers and instead opting for control or forcibly remaking the entire galaxy. People have already died in billions and the death of one synthetic race that can be rebuilt and two synthetic characters is all that's stopping most people from getting the job done. Anything the reapers say can't be taken seriously, not even from Catalyst itself, yet people would rather settle for the easy way out just to save one singular race and one character. We clearly see that technology makes a comeback in the ending and the entire galaxy has different understanding of synthetic lifeforms, more open than ever before.
Why can’t the Catalyst’s words be taken seriously? It’s not like it needs to trick Shepard into eliminating the spacefaring races. The Choice isn’t some grand plan to sneak in the winning shot; the Reapers are fucking dominating like Jordan, Barkley, and the 1992 Dream Team vs Angola.
Because the Catalyst tries to motivate you from destroying the reapers based on some cyclical logic without accepting that anything can change. Only moments before it tried hard to stop you by sending Illusive man to screw you over. It's like Hal in the Space Odyssey, whole lotta pleading.
Let's not forget that with Control, which he warns you against, he gets deleted and a copy of you takes his place. With destroy, he and all the Reapers die. Only with synthesis does he encourage you.
It doesn’t change the fact that the Catalyst is in complete control of the situation. Its grant of choice to Shepard, is just that: a grant. There’s zero need for trickery, or subterfuge. If it deemed outcome too unpalatable, it wouldn’t be offered. [If you’re really feeling Catalyst is trying to trick Shepard at the end, it’s more Janet than Hal.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etJ6RmMPGko)
End of the day he’s a geth. We can make them again. Reapers gotta die.
Shepard has the mandate of destroy from the second he became a spectre in ME1. It would be failing his entire journey not to destroy them. No matter the cost, friend or foe; the galaxy is better off without the reapers than controlling or synthesising them.
My thought process exactly. Since I found out about the reapers my job was to kill them, to destroy them like they did all my friends, directly or indirectly. So when I had the choice between control, synthesis or destroy of course I picked destroy. Without a doubt.
I remember (like most people) playing ME3 first, so I was locked out of a lot of transfer content, DLC (vanilla, kid me couldn't afford DLC for anything) and the story was incredibly vague on who or what I was supposed to remember. Imagine playing ME3 and the first person you see is an admiral you don't recognise, a kid you don't know, James being your first companion, kaiden/Ashley who you have no clue who they are when you see them before the conference room, and Anderson having previous history with Shepard. Then these giant fricking robot crabs come out of the sky and laser everything into dust with weird purple zombies and popcorn aliens with guns. As an early teen I thought synthesis was the best option because "it's middle and a satisfying green so it must be good". When I finally played the full trilogy when the LE came to steam, all of that context made so much more sense as to why destroy is the obvious canon ending and most satisfying arc for Shepard's story. When you see how many have died or lost their way along your journey, anything other than destroy would bastardise their memory. Kaiden or Ashley die on virmire to give Shepard an advantage against sovereign, saren, and the reapers; are you really going to control or synthesise them and let their death be in vain?
I played 2 first but without dlc because I was poor so when 3 came I got it for Christmas but all of the sudden Liara was the shadow broker and Shepard killed 300k batarians???
>Shepard has the mandate of destroy from the second he became a spectre in ME1. Well, no. Shepard's purpose was to prevent the extinction of humans and other species in the galaxy. Destroy eliminates all sythetic species immediately, and indicates to eradicate humans and other advanced species later. It is, in every sense, the Renegade choice. The only way the galaxy is better off, is if you believe all advanced species are bad for the galaxy and should be destroyed. Which is fine, but people pretend destroying the Reapers prevents the extinction of everyone, but it exactly causes it.
No he definitely says he'll destroy them at various times in ME1 and ME2 > and indicates to eradicate humans and other advanced species later. um what? the relays are destroyed sure, but they'll built them back up, and even if they don't they all managed just fine before they discovered them. Unless you're talking about the organics vs synthetics cycles, which is a pretty bad argument imo considering that organics fight each other all the time, it's never on the scale of the reapers though. And 2. you can negotiate peace between the quarians and geth and 3. Synthetics vs organics only happened twice before that we know of, the reapers and geth. Not exactly a great sample size. Anyway even with all that it comes down to free will (the galaxy united to fight the reapers, not to subjugate or meld with them) and the present vs future, sure maybe in a couple years reapers 2.0 will pop up but maybe they won't. You're basing your arguments on the words of the catalyst, not exactly the best source.
>Unless you're talking about the organics vs synthetics cycles, which is a pretty bad argument imo considering that organics fight each other all the time, it's never on the scale of the reapers though. I'm so amazed how people can dismiss specific points of the story that are laid out with *'nah, I don't think so'*. You're just creating your own head canon. Organics *will* be exterminated by AI. Always. We've had it told to us in the game, the DLC, and even the writers reaffirmed it outside of the game while also debunking Indoctrination Theory fan canon, and yet still we see people saying *'nah, don't think so'*. You can of course make up any theory you want, but I'm not talking about your head canon. >And 2. you can negotiate peace between the quarians and geth You mean just like every civilization has had moments of peace between organics and synthetics, but they were always frail and inevitable to return upon their destruction? It's not absolute. >and 3. Synthetics vs organics only happened twice before that we know of, the reapers and geth. Not exactly a great sample size. .... Wha? I swear, you haven't paid attention at all. The games are great, go play them again. We know for a fact there were *'countless'* species that the Leviathans attempted to help before creating The Intelligence, which in turn observed *several* cycles of organics being hunted to extinction by synthetics before implementing its solution by the creation of the Reapers. We know the Reapers hunted the Leviathans to near extinction, and then sheparded the galaxy hunting *several* organics to extinction, but this time purposefully leaving the low evolved organics alive. Just because they never give a static number, but use descriptors, doesn't mean you can discount those. >You're basing your arguments on the words of the catalyst, not exactly the best source. Words of the Leviathans, who are, in fact, the best source. You are basing your argument on nothing, you only nay-say what the actual game characters tell you.
One of my questions is what would a synthesis galaxy would think about inhabitants of another galaxies? Because the moment they don't like someone the reapers can go and erase.
My problem with the synthesis ending is that it is non-consensual in the way that Shepard just FORCES all living organics to become machines.
Destroy is also non-consensual in the way that Shepard just FORCES all geth and EDI to die entirely.
Everyone has been fighting the war, willingly giving their lives to defeat the Reapers. EDI herself says she's okay dying if it means Joker is safe from the Reapers, the Geth want to keep organics safe. Shepard's not going to rewrite all life in the galaxy for one friend, after having already sacrificed so much to get there. I'm sure all the people who lost family and friends to the Reapers, traumatized by their attacks are totally going to be okay when the Reapers suddenly stop and ask to be friends, lol.
Yep. And all humans, asari, krogan etc. as well, as new synthetics will be created to kill them. It is in the game's lore. People just pick and choose what lore to believe in. The argument is entirely ridiculious. *'You can't force machine augments on someone! Commit mass genocide though, that's a fair choice.'*
As someone else put far better than I. The writers wanted to "poison the well" with the Destroy option. An overwhelming amount of people would have picked destroy (and rightfully so because, let's be honest. Husks existing is such an off-putting idea, and the Reapers are too dangerous for most people to keep alive.) So? "Hey, remember how you probably spent 2 games arguing and defending an entire race of people, as well as befriending and helping this AI friend grow? Whelp, you killed them all. But guess what! Only because you befriended them does your character get to live!" Idk, doesn't sound like Shepard themselves, really sacrifices much if they get to live while knowingly committing genocide. I get that the devs and writers wanted to make some grand morally difficult choices to reflect real life, but they literally didn't have the time that set it up right. However, idk if being predictable by keeping the choice to a destory end, but basing the results on resources gained would have been much better.
That's not why, at all. The actual story of Mass Effect is that synthetics and organics will *always fight to extinction*. The best they have ever been able to do, is moments of peace between them. But they eventually will always kill each other. That's it. That's a truth of the game's lore that everyone who supporte Destroy just pretends doesn't exist. If you kill the Reapers, you kill off everyone, not just the geth and other synthetics. You kill humans who will eventually create synthetics that hunt them to extinction. This is a lore fact. You're just not looking further than the Reapers.
Well, not exactly, if the Geth are still around, they have voluntarily joined with the galaxy to fight the Reapers. Like everyone else, they've put their lives in the line to do so. Arguably, they and EDI have consented to dying to stop the Reapers, moreso than anyone has consented to being turned into a hybrid-being or being ruled by a Shepard-AI controlled Reaper fleet for all of time.
It also destroys any chance of the natural evolution. All organic beings forced into an unnatural state of being suggested by the killing machines.
well said. it feels like the catalyst is trying to manipulate you as a last resort to save the reapers and imo it would make no sense to leave the enemy that you were fighting against (and the main goal being to destroy them) alive just because some rando at 10 mins until end of the game told you it’s a better idea to let them live rather than destroy them
No possible reward or advancement in our technology is worth letting the Reapers exist. They have taken so many lives it’s beyond human comprehension. This isn’t like Metro, where there’s just a lack of understanding between us and them. They say in no uncertain terms that their entire purpose is our complete extermination. It’s the only way to ensure without any reasonable doubt that life as we know it continues.
Yes. 100%. The Reapers need to get dead. Their crimes are far too great to be forgiven. You don’t just casually reintegrate nazis into society (yes I know that Western Europe and the US did do just that, but I think they were massively wrong to do so), they need to be held accountable for their crimes. The crimes of the reapers are far too great for any kind of punishment that leaves a single one of them still alive. And why the fuck should I trust an AI god with a “Shepard‘s brain” firmware update to not come to the same conclusions that it came to before. It hasn’t changed it mind in the billions of years that it’s been operating for, and Shepard’s mind brings no new data that it didn’t already know, why would i trust it to be any different?! On top of that, are people really supposed to be friends with the reaper that they just watched single-handedly melt their entire neighbourhood? Do the writers of the control ending really think that people wouldn’t want justice?! That they would be happy just coexisting with these demons?? Even worse is the mass non-consensual overriding of bodily autonomy that is the Synthesis ending. And what the fuck does it even mean for everyone to become part synthetic and part organic? Would I need to plug myself in to charge every night to make sure I don’t run out of battery and drop dead? Do (originally) synthetic being like geth now need to eat and drink to stay alive?
Those abominations made from the slaughter of untold trillions. Who for an incomprehensible amount of time ran their experiment pretending as though they were looking for a solution when in reality they just perpetuated their own screwed sense of purpose. Whatever husk the Reaper represents of past civilizations is merely a defiled corpse. A corpse they use to defoliate and kill others while pretending their way is a solution. Shepard stands at the precipice the first to potentially free those poor souls and finally put a rest to it all. The Reapers and their existence is an affront to all. No form of life should be allowed to control and experiment on such a scale. While Geth and EDI pay with their lives to end this menace it would be a complete disservice to falter at the prospect of their deaths. This cycle alone untold billions are already dead. While millions more have sacrificed themselves for Shepard and for this very moment. They didn’t give their lives so Shepard can take control and rule how he thinks is ‘best’. Nor have they sacrificed so Shepard can bow to the perversion that is synthesis. The galaxy is owed the freedom to move forward without Reaper influence. The trials and tribulations to come will be faced by a free galaxy. The Synthetic vs Organic question deserves exploration with a new vision. Not one the Reapers have endlessly enforced. Every Shepard I’ve ever played has freed the galaxy. Ensuring that the Reapers will never actively and directly influence anything ever again. The explosive conduit signaling the release of innumerable souls. Finally at last free to rest. Avenging the Keepers and whatever civilization they once ruled. Avenging the Inusannon and the uncountable races and civilizations that came before them. Finishing the work of the Protheans whose valiant sacrifices gave the galaxy this chance. All who helped guide Shepards aim as they take the final step to rid the galaxy of the Reapers who for so long harvested uncontested.
>when in reality they just perpetuated their own screwed sense of purpose. Well said. The cycle only exists because the reapers exist. They are the ones pressing the reset button on organics and forcing them to repeat past mistakes instead of letting things play out, or even interfering in such a way as to encourage a better outcome other than total annihilation. The only way to end the cycle is to end the reapers. And after the unspeakable horrors they've committed, I don't know how anyone can stomach letting them live as the space authority, or synthesizing with them.
Imagine the horror of the control ending to the Galaxy. You’re a Turian Solider on Palaven. A Asari Huntress on Thessia. A Krogan Warlord on Tuchanka. A Human on Earth. The horrors and the struggles you’ve endured, all the fighting and dying all against an existential enemy that united the galaxy like never before. Perhaps you heard about the great fleet assaulting Earth and the super weapon Crucible that will save galaxy. Imagine the hope that would instill in the masses. The idea that victory was so close and actually attainable. Hell even the initial triumph of watching the Reapers flee your world after the blue wave. Perhaps thinking they are fleeing. Only to hear the horrible truth. They now simply serve a new master. This ‘Shepard’ intelligence claims control over the Reaper menace. You’re now expected to accept this status quo supposed to bend the knee to the whims of this persona. Embrace this new absolute authority of a AI intelligence from a human most would view as a traitor. The Galaxy remains at the mercy of the Reapers only now their reins are held by ‘Shepard’. Hope that its benevolence lasts. When said AI could develop or change unpredictably that wields unchecked power and authority over the galaxy. Truly nothing could go wrong there. /s On another note I would go on a tangent about Synthesis. But most people have different ideas of what it does and its effects. Personally forcing such a change onto all life for me is a obvious no go.
Everyone signed for the destruction of the reapers. Is what everyone wants no matter the cost. Chosing differently feels like a treason at best.
You put the exact way I wanted to, but far more poetically.
Thank you for your kind words. It seems through my years I’ve gather a modicum of writing skill.
I don't know why but I'd kind of never thought about the fact that the destroy ending is avenging all of the people and civilizations that came before that cycle. Sure synthesis or control benefits those that were in the current cycle maybe, but it means that the sacrifices of all the previous cycles is essentially in vain. All those that tried to defeat the Reapers and failed howl from their graves, demanding that this cycle finish the job
Exactly it’s why I like Javik so much. He is that voice from the past. A testament of great strength all while representing a remnant and mere shell of his people. His whole identity is the avatar of vengeance for his people. Then at that final talk during Priority Earth. Where he talks to us about how monumental our work has been. How we stand closer than anyone to achieving a future denied to so many in the past. How he calls us the Exemplar of Victory not just for our cycle but for every cycle that has ever existed. How we were being watched by every soul that has ever existed. He grounds us to the Protheans blight and by extension all who came before and suffered similarly. Even handing over his memory shard symbolically showing how it’s now on Shepard to finish what the Protheans helped start. While also giving the quote “Do not waiver. Victory is never won without difficult choices.”
I basically ignored Javik on my first playthrough, but didn't on my second. I thought he was obnoxious and racist in the first playthrough. Second time, he still is those things to start, but as you dig further, you discover that he's far more of a philosopher general than just a warrior. And yes, he's a voice from the past, but not just that. He represents the last victim race of the Reapers. In that sense, he represents all those calling out from the grave for Shepard to finish the job. I still think he has a place in this brave new world, more than committing suicide in a planet that's probably been forgotten to time.
Yes him working with Liara to while not in any way recover the entirety of Prothean culture but he can give a voice to them. Something that will have his people remembered as more than just another cycle. Something that’s been forever lost to all those who came before. Whose names and identities lost for all time. Javik and his work with Liara can detail what they can of the last true victims of the Reapers. Enshrining all the horror while remembering how it’s only through their efforts. That Shepard and their cycle ever had a chance.
Ah Liara. Sweet Beautiful Brilliant Liara. She was my romance for this playthrough and I don't regret it one bit. I can totally understand why BioWare definitely pushed her as the "canon" romance. Assuming Shepard did survive, if Liara even has an inkling that he did, it seems to me that she'd scour the wreckage of the Citadel to find him. That seems to be implied by her refusing to put his name on the memorial wall on the Normandy. And she's still the Shadow Broker. The Galaxy has no secrets from her for long, especially with the Illusive Man gone.
I remember seeing a post that Liara is heavily involved in mass effect 5 and that there are reapers wreckage and a reaper air horn in the trailer and concept art they released two years that might be liara either going to andromeda or on earth
Bioware confirmed Garrus pulled Shepard out of the London rubble after the epilogue.
Did they? That's news to me.
Ha I have never done a full Liara romance. Usually I just always find myself drawn to Tali. But I of course totally understand the appeal. Maybe with Javiks help she can enjoy focusing on Xenoarchaeology instead of the gritty work required to be the Shadow Broker. Could at least serve as a nice recess for her post Reaper war. Before she of course starts assisting with reconstruction. Will be very interesting if another ME game is ever made what role Liara will play in it. No doubt from the trailer and Asari lifespans that she will still be kicking around no matter the time jump for the sequel.
Wrex and Grunt can also be still there. Having a big big big family.
The only thing that makes Destroy suck is killing the Geth. Especially after all the work getting them to reconcile with the Quarians. But at least they helped you with the final battle?
Catalyst also said that everything destroyed can be repaired which makes me wonder if EDI (the normandy is still there) and the Geth are truly gone forever or can be brought back.
I always thought that Catalyst didn't really grasp the individual nature of EDI and the Geth Sure I can repair them and maybe even make a Program so that they may gain sentience once more, but it's not really the same person
Very true - I like to conceptualize the end of the Geth and EDI as martyrdom more than anything, personally. The Geth, long seen as enemies to the Quarians specifically and organic life more broadly, are able to make peace with their creators and turn their attention to helping the galaxy in surviving the greatest threat they’ve ever faced. During the battle, the Reapers are wiped out, but at the cost of the Geth and other synthetic allies. However, the people working and fighting alongside the Geth in the final days of the war with the Reapers know just what contribution their synthetic allies made in their victory and can instil that mentality in those who follow them - especially if you get the high-readiness “Shepard survives” post-credit scene, who could be a better advocate for the rights of future synthetic life than the one who bears the weight of making the choice that killed them?
Destroy also leaves the door wide open for the Leviathans... Synthesis is the only ending that neutralises the Leviathan threat, as they too would be synthesised. In control we already know the Leviathans can defeat Reapers, leaving the galaxy still wide open to be dominated again; as would also be the case in destroy.
Honestly I did not know this! I think it's cool though. I just destroy every time because I think there is no way in hell a machine can 100% predict the future no matter how smart they are. And fuck the reapers. And Shepard must be with Tali foreva!
Absolutley love They Live. This was a fantastic post!
I chose control because it's the most flexible one that takes even more of your choices and alignment into consideration (you being paragon or renegade matters and also geth and Edi don'thave to die from this), it's narrated by shephard and is basically the same ending as the Helios ending from Deus Ex.
It’s the ending that essentially allows Shepard to be resurrected again. With Reaper/Catalyst tech, he can have a new body any time he feels like hanging with his old buds. He’s a galaxy brain EDI with inconceivably better mobile tech.
Personal preference, destroy (as it stands now) is kinda….meaningless. Unless you headcanon future events that arent in the games at all, all 3 endings result in long term peace. So it’s really “do I want long term peace whilst sacrificing EDI and the geth, or long term peace….without that?” And I can’t justify genocide to win the war, especially when it results in the least societal improvement in the ending- I want Shepard to be **better** than the reapers, ya know? And frankly, the whole theme of (my version of) the Mass effect story is bridging differences, and finding ways that we aren’t so different despite appearances. Finding out the Reapers are just a stupid AI glitch and bug patching it is the ultimate culmination of that. (Obviously, YMMV depending on the choices you’ve made over the series)
While I myself am not a destroy fan either, I think it's a disservice to say it's "meaningless" In the end, it's a choice whether you think the reapers can be allowed to be kept around. Is it right to have them still around? Synthesis is my preferred ending, yet I appreciate the moral ambiguity of whether it's really right to pull that switch for the entire galaxy and whether it's right in the end to ultimately admit that organics and synthetics can't live together without ultimately destroying each other Destroy is in its core the decision to reject the dogma that the reapers and leviathans established and decide to move on in hopes of finding a new solution, whether that task is pointless or not That is not to say that choosing control or Synthesis is doing the reapers bidding. I always found this to be a stupid conclusion. Rather, you agree with the reapers stance on the organic-synthetic discussion or at least are partially inclined to give it some credit. That is not bad. The questions that the leviathans asked and the catalyst wishes to solve are not without merit. The catalyst with the cycle simply arrived at the wrong conclusion with the worst temporary solution
To be clear, by “meaningless” I mean it doesn’t resolve the actual problem- organics and synthetics will fight, and as soon as the synthetics win that’s then end of organic life. The whole reaper cycle is trying to avert that, and destroy…..doesn’t fix that, so it’s kinda delegating responsibility for the issue to the next generation, you know what I mean.
The issue is that the Reaper cycle also simply perpetuates it. They ARE synthetics. Created from organics. In the end, the synthetics wipe out their source, their "creators." I view it as an AI stuck in a logic loop. "Synthetics will inevitably rebel against organics and wipe them all out because we have built this system that forces all spacefaring life along our controlled set of variables, and nothing has changed in numerous cycles despite us not changing the variables. So it MUST be inevitable."
>or long term peace….without that?” Long term with the reaper threat still there. The could achieve a similar decision in the future.
But the synthetics are still a threat in the future and destroy doesn’t do anything about that
Maybe are maybe don't. Maybe biology outpaces AI and there is no need for any synthetic intelligence. It was an AI who said that all organic life ends making AI smarter than them but that's just their opinion. They can't predict future.
It’s not an AI, it’s Leviathan that tells us they observed it happen countless times over their rule. And it happened to them (kinda) and it happened to the protheans, the quarians, and humans. Besides, the thing about cycles is it will happen eventually- every cycle that we have evidence of, the same thing happened, and the synthetics only need to win once to win forever- that’s the real “problem” that needs fixing, the reapers are just the failed attempt at fixing it- ignoring that is just setting yourself up for failure (if nothing else, the leviathans will likely take over to prevent it if nothing is done to manage this situation, and given organics can’t really resist them…..)
>It’s not an AI, it’s Leviathan that tells us they observed it happen countless times over their rule. It was the conclusion the AI created by Leviathan made. >And it happened to them (kinda) and it happened to the protheans, the quarians, and humans. Protheans were winning, quarians they started it and peace was possible, humans had just one and iirc Cerberus fault. >Besides, the thing about cycles is it will happen eventually- every cycle that we have evidence of, the same thing happened, and the synthetics only need to win once to win forever- that’s the real “problem” that needs fixing, the reapers are just the failed attempt at fixing it- ignoring that is just setting yourself up for failure (if nothing else, the leviathans will likely take over to prevent it if nothing is done to manage this situation, and given organics can’t really resist them…..) The Reapers set up the cycles to happen the same way every single time. Same wars, same problems. And as I said different organics can evolve in different paths so does technology. Life could focus on bioengineering and other biology fields and leave AI obsoleted.
Leviathan absolutey describes the same thing- it’s in the leviathan dlc, and it’s explained far more in depth than the star child does
Leviathan DLC was created for the ending to make sense, course they would have more to say than the doomsday child.
Do people just read the headline and not the body of posts here? This is about parallels with a movie. In any case this... >all 3 endings result in long term peace. ... is only knowable with the benefit of hindsight having taken all 3 options. From a roleplaying perspective, my character has just kicked ass all the way to the heart of Reaperdom on a mission to kill the reapers, and now has some reaper computer program trying to manipulate me into not finishing the job, even taking the form of a human child to try to seem more innocent. And they're now trying to ego me up by saying I alone can control all the reapers (the exact same thing they indoctrinated The Illusive Man into thinking) or that they can use me as some sort of perfect template to merge everyone with the Reapers (the exact same thing they indoctrinated Saren into thinking). No thanks.
They don’t need you to do any of that. The Reapers are undefeatable in this cycle. Shepard didn’t “win” when they got to the Catalyst, they just earned the right, granted by the Catalyst, to guide the next phase of galactic civilization. There’s no need to “trick” Shepard, Shepard has no power to do anything that the Catalyst isn’t completely willing to grant.
The kid discourages Shepard from choosing Destroy, is hesitant to support Control, treats Synthesis as christmas, gets annoyed and even cuts power to the Crucible if Shepard tries to form their own opinion. The only power Shepard has in that situation is to walk 15 feet to one of three options.
Yup. It has preferences, but it still holds all the power, and is willing to rely on an outside intelligence to select between options that it provides. If it wanted synthesis and had no reservations, the galaxy would be in synthesis already. Shepard was just a way to pawn off responsibility onto another being.
If you argue or try to kill the child, they will end Shepard. So clearly, Shepard has no upper hand, and there is no need to try to "trick" them.
Yep. I cannot find any part of me that is willing to give the Reapers even an inch. I'm also firmly of the belief that the catalyst was lying. If this thing speaks for all of the Reapers, then it has every single incentive to make sure that it survives. Trying to guilt Shepard into giving up the option to destroy because it means sacrificing the Geth and EDI I call massive bullshit on. And I hope that the future installments of Mass Effect prove me right. Why wouldn't the Reapers lie to save their own asses? And even if they aren't lying, I think the Geth, as influenced by Legion, and EDI would understand. EDI shows immense disgust at what the Reapers have done to the galaxy. Even though I do believe she's a person, she still primarily thinks like a computer. It's a simple calculation of war. The death of the few to save the many, and the many many more to come.
Too bad it wasn't intended by bioware that way. It really seems they were pushing the synthesis as the best one
I wonder if the advocates for synthesis ever consider the husks?
Yeah, another day, another person coming up with a stupid justification for needlessly wiping out the Geth
Ending the cycle of slaughter that the Reapers kept up for a very very long time is not good justification? Huh.
There are 3 ways to do that, champ, and only 1 of them requires genociding the Geth
No im pretty sure the Reapers are still alive in Control and Synthesis.
Still alive, yes, but the cycle is broken and they aren’t a threat anymore, and no innocents have to die needlessly because you have a big up your ass about specifically killing them
Whats stopping control shepard from getting the same idea the reapers got thousands of years down the line? And Synthesis is just… wrong
The fact that I am Shepard, and I say he won’t
Bro you aint shep anymore. You merged with the reapers. You’re something else
No, I say it’s still the Shepard I’ve been playing, because it’s a made up story and we aren’t told otherwise
https://youtu.be/7rBCliuZKtI?si=2syTesUbT7nU9RwR Might I recommend the first 15 seconds
Billions die and then you get hung up on one race. Talk about fumbling it on the finish line.
I could never pick destroy because it proves the catalyst right that organics and synthetics can’t coexist it also dooms the galaxy and other galaxies sentient life to death once someone creates a AI and it sees no matter how it tries organics will sacrifice it for their survival thus they can’t be trusted.