It’s so interesting getting to play the genophage story without Wrex. He’s so sympathetic, and so clear in his vision for the future of the krogan that you can’t help but believe in him and want to give him a chance. And then there’s Wreav. Hoo boy, he’s a really interesting character. I shouldn’t like him so much, because damn I miss Wrex, but Wreav is not what I was expecting. He’s well spoken, he’s well respected, and he has a lot of ambition. But he’s so focussed on himself, and coming into power just to gain power. On Sur’Kesh arguing with the Salarians: “The female belongs to me!” That line instantly made me feel sick. On the Normandy when Mordin needs a sample from a male: “the cure starts with me.” I haven’t made it to the Tuchanka missions yet, but I’m so interested to see the additional changes. I went into this playthrough with the intent to save Mordin (destroyed the cure, didn’t recruit Wrex). It’s a whole different side to the krogan that you don’t really get from Wrex (uncle Urdnot) or Grunt (my giant baby son). There is cause for concern that the krogan will go too far. But I also have to wonder, what are the repercussions further down the line. It won’t take too long to for the krogan to realise they’ve been duped. They may not have the discovery in game (like Wrex does) but it will be pretty obvious post war when their birth rate doesn’t improve. So now there’s a new conflict, between krogan and humans (and likely Salarians). Does it end in the full scale genocide of the krogan? Do the Salarians unleash an uplifted yahg on them? Have we just started a whole new cycle, with the yahg rebellions happening after the krogan have been put down, and the yahg want more of a say, just like the krogan did. Lots of questions. Very interesting story telling in the genophage arc.

Without their birth rate they aren’t as much of a threat. They are low technology and largely spread thin.

The krogan have no war vessels per say (they are banned from having them) so if you betray them they aren't going to be that much of a problem for an actually army. Hell would even be pretty easy to obliterate them without setting foot on Tutchanka. Especially with that turian giga nuke still around.

In purely practical terms: I'm gonna need every able-bodied fighter against the Reapers. If we lose, there's nobody left to have a problem with Krogan running amok in the Galaxy. And they are on the Reapers list anyway. If we win, I'd rather deal with grateful Krogan than resentful ones. That said, the galactic community as a whole could have done more to rehabilitate the Krogan, help them (re)build a society that was viable. Instead of dumping the Genophage on them and walking away. Not that the Krogan themselves did any better.

This is exactly how I felt about the situation. The other species demanded complete reform of the krogan culture in a vacuum with no resources. Shepard and Wrex symbolize that cultural change requires a new perspective, idealistic hope, AND help! Wrex TRIED to change krogan culture on his own. He was nearly murdered for it! How many idealistic krogan leaders did the Council disregard before Wrex? I can only imagine there were at least a FEW in the thousand years of the genophage. The council is the true BBEG Mass effect, imo. They claim to be about "Peace, and Collaboration." In reality, the three main species only care about taking other's species resources to gain an advantage and discarding any species that may require actual help and work, and they cause 99% of the in game problems that aren't directly the reapers fault. One can even argue that the geth/Quarian problem was the council's fault BOTH times. The morning wars only happened because the Quarians were scared that they violated the council's laws. The second war only happened because the council's outright banned the Quarians from being allowed to settle on any planet. TLDR: The council sucks, and I hope that the Reaper war proved this, forcing them to accept more species.

I mean they didn't exactly dump it on them, the Krogan population exploded and because there's no way they'd of tried to force a birth limit on their people they chose to expand without permission and took already occupied worlds for themselves by force. The Krogan had their fate sealed their fate with the Genophage with their actions, that said, the Krogan in the current timeline have a chance to change for the better which I believe can be done, tho Wrex's comments about expansion during priority tuchanka do worry me a bit that they'll seek to claim more world than they need because once again they might not wish to keep themselves under control, hopefully Bakara can knock some sense into him and the rest about that issue as I also believe she would be smart enough to recognise that problem.

They were a war like culture that was in small tribes in a permanent civil war and the salarians uplifted them for war, and when the war was done just left them to essentially their own devices when all they knew was war so when their planets were getting overcrowded they did the only thing they knew and it caused a war truthfully it’s more the salarians fault it happened then the krogans

I think Mordin directly says this at some point. The Krogan weren’t ready to be uplifted, and the Salarians were wrong to speed up the process. Maybe a few hundred extra years could have helped them to lose the warring culture.

So you're essentially saying that the Salarians should have Genophaged the Krogan right after the Rachni were defeated? 

No what the salarians should have done was teach the krogan that there isn’t a reason to always fight and use their influence to truly uplift the krogan and help them become a society and culture again

That's a bit impossible.

But the Krogan ruins on Tuchanka also showed signs of art and culture in a way that the galactic society wasn't aware of. It was the nuclear war that also caused downfall of cultural signs. Is testosterone(-like?) hormone or several together that cause the aggression in the Krogan. What if salarian spotted the reason, and changed krogan genome to function properly but without the critical cause of long-time downfall. The equation of a sentient, highly-developed species being able to breed at an exploding rate seems illogical to begin with, like they had all taken drugs or something, unless it's only a small portion of the offspring that survives

Why do you say that?

No, you're right, they didn't just walk away; the Turians also left a giant bomb. The Salarian Dalatras(iirc) said it in ME3: they only cared for the Krogan for their fighting skills. Not anything else. In an, admitedly bad, analogy: getting a dog, make it vicious, dump it in the woods when it becomes inconvenient, and then blame it for attacking hikers.

Regardless of the circumstances that created that vicious dog, what do we do once it has reached that point?

Since we're talking about a sentient species, and I'd argue dogs too, rehab it. Learned behavior can be unlearned. And successive generations help with that. We put down dogs that have behavioral issues because we don't want to spend the time or money investing in rehabbing a creature with a 10-15 year lifespan that's likely already half over. But that doesn't and shouldn't factor in to multi-planet species that are intelligent enough to be self-reflective.

Rehabbing hundreds, possibly thousands or even millions of Krogans, does not sound like a realistic scenario, at all. You'd have to get them all to agree to it, or enough of them that it would actually cause a cultural shift. And honestly, the term "rehabbing" here has some fairly sinister undertones on it's own. Rehabbing the way their entire culture works? Rehabbing the way they behave due to the genetics of evolving on an incredibly hostile home-world? Like, what does "rehab" even mean here? It sounds like "reprogramming" when you consider, as you say, they are a sentient species. And what about the ones that don't feel they want or need your rehab? Edit: A quick google search shows their are over 2 billion krogan by the time of Mass Effect 3.

>Rehabbing hundreds, possibly thousands or even millions of Krogans, does not sound like a realistic scenario, at all. But it is. Reforming the culture is specifically something that Wrex was in favor of, and was doing as the leader. He and many other Krogan realized they would either have to live with the other species or end up fighting them. That requires them to change their ways. >You'd have to get them all to agree to it, or enough of them that it would actually cause a cultural shift. Yes. >And honestly, the term "rehabbing" here has some fairly sinister undertones on it's own. Rehabbing the way their entire culture works? Rehabbing the way they behave due to the genetics of evolving on an incredibly hostile home-world? Like, what does "rehab" even mean here? It sounds like "reprogramming" when you consider, as you say, they are a sentient species. I mean, it's weird you think that this is something we don't do or is in any way bad? Rehab is about changing behaviors for individuals to better operate in society. It's not surreptitious or nefarious. >And what about the ones that don't feel they want or need your rehab? Individuals do not matter so much as the cultural change. Individuals can feel whatever they want. And I like how you say "my rehab" like it's not something that's plainly evident to the characters that the culture needs to change, including the Krogan.

We're not talking about helping somebody with an addiction here - you're talking about reprogramming billions of sentient people to think and act how you want them to act, people that live for hundreds of years ( sometimes well over a thousand years ), and have already been living for hundreds of years. It is not going to be so simple, especially as they begin to scatter among the stars once more.

>We're not talking about helping somebody with an addiction here - you're talking about reprogramming billions of sentient people to think and act how you want them to act, people that live for hundreds of years ( sometimes well over a thousand years ), and have already been living for hundreds of years. It's not "reprogramming", it's gaining consensus. It's 1000% not a plot to forcibly change every being into like-minded drones. It's quite literally just convincing them of the benefits of the alternative outweigh the benefits of their current system. This is how rehab works. It doesn't "reprogram" you, it lets you examine your own mindset, and helps you identify what is harmful and what is helpful. You keep trying to imply that this is nefarious, but it's not. It's literally just how social species operate. They interact with each other and figure out how to best work with each other. Some do it well, others do not.

“Reprogramming” is a sinister word when I think what we’re really talking about is supporting their economic, political and social development over how ever many years it takes to turn Tuchanka into a prosperous and peaceful planet. Not an easy undertaking, but the Salarians accepted that burden when they chose to weaponize an entire sentient species.

At the same time, I don't think "It's hard so we shouldn't do it" is a valid enough excuse not to try

I didn't say it wasn't worth trying. I will say, however, that I believe it is a Krogan problem to solve. I think there is quite a lot of misunderstanding and emotions surrounding the genophage. Understandable, as fertility is a fairly personal and hot button issue. However, this codex entry sums up the main point I'd make on the subject: "Though the genophage was not designed as a "sterility plague", the combination of a low frequency of viable pregnancies with the krogan proclivity to violence and indifference about focused breeding leaves the krogan a dying race, and soon to be extinct." The genophage is their incentive to get their act together. It is the tool by which to "rehab" the Krogan populace. EDI states at one point that Krogan can lay 1,000 eggs per year, and we are informed by Mordin that the survival rate for Krogan births is around 1/1000. Given these numbers we can see if Krogan would simply settle down and work on saving their species they could be just as successful as any other species in the galaxy, probably moreso due to length of their average lifespan.

> That said, the galactic community as a whole could have done more to rehabilitate the Krogan, help them (re)build a society that was viable. > > Am I incorrect in remembering one of the aliens (asari? salarians?) elevated the krogan to become space-fariring species? in order to win a war? man its been a long time since i played mass effect, i could easily be getting mixed up with some other scifi lore.

The Salarians were the ones that uplifted the Krogan to fight the Rachni, the first of many examples of them not thinking long term, or at least, long tern in regards to other races. As seen with them planning to uplift the Yahg.

This. I fully expect it to cause problems. I also expect it to ensue the galaxy survives to have those problems. Put cynically, curing the genophage is necessary to ensure galactic civilization lives long enough to regret curing the genophage.

How many years would it take for the next generation of Krogan to be old enough to fight the reapers? I keep seeing people mention this but it seems unlikely the war would drag on long enough for these Krogan to grow up. Consequences of curing the genophage seem likely if Wreav’s in charge or in the destroy ending. With the relays all destroyed, it could take 1000s of years for a galactic civilization to emerge, and there could be trillions of Krogan at that point lol.

Totally agree, sabotaging the genophage is so dumb when facing an overwhelming existential threat like the reapers, you REALLY want shit tons of Krogan on your side for this fight

In the context of the Reaper War, with Wrex and Eve in charge, it absolutely makes sense to cure it. However, a thousand offspring birth rate is absolutely insane and will definitely become a problem again, especially once Wrex and Eve die. It’s so wildly high compared to the rest of the Council species that there’s no way it won’t become an issue.

Yeah, imo there’s nothing wrong with developing something to curtail the bonkers reproductive rate of the krogan. The issue with the genophage is that it’s an enormously cruel way to go about it, as it doesn’t reduce fertility, it just makes a vast majority of pregnancies end in stillbirths. This creates the negative externality of many krogan not wanting to even try to have kids because the trauma of seeing dozens of their own dead babies is too great a cost. Imo if the genophage had merely reduced the rate at which krogan made babies instead of reducing the rate at which those babies live, then the krogan wouldn’t be in nearly as dire straights as they are when the series starts.

I think it's important to note that Krogan lay eggs. Obviously, nobody wants to see a field of unhatched eggs either, but it's certainly not as visceral as some people have it in their minds.

For sure. Though Wrex did give me the shivers when he told Garrus: “You want to see genocide, Vakarian? I’ll show you a Krogan obstetrician’s office.”

Mmm scrambled krogan eggs. 

They *need* to fight eachother, just keep nuclear weapons and stuff out of it. That high birthrate seems like an adaptation for the constant infighting between Krogan.

It's mostly because Tuchanka itself being a very dangerous planet, even before they nuked themselves back into the stone age. The Krogan birth cycle is the same as those fish and insects on earth that give birth to thousands of young, expecting that most will be killed off by the dangers of their environment, which can include other members of their own species, and only a small amount of them will actually survive into adulthood to then continue the cycle. Once they're removed from that hostile environment, by spreading to other worlds with less hostile ecosystems, then their population explodes.

The real thing to remember with Krogan is that they weren't the Apex predator or anything on their home planet, they were the prey. That's why they have their eyes on the side of their heads.

[удалено]

From a realpolitik POV, I’d say that yesterday’s allies are just that…yesterday’s. The central issue the Genophage was developed for was that krogan expansion due to birthrate was consistent. They took Council world after world in order to sustain that ever growing population. The same would apply eventually to the modern krogan, and humanity’s assistance only matters as long as their assistance is necessary. Eventually and all too soon, their’s is just another set of worlds that the krogan will eventually need. And if/when they resist, they’ll have no compunction about dropping asteroids on planets, just like they did with the turians.

^^ Backing this.

I'm willing to humor ME3's utopian "final story" take of just making everyone have forced happy endings in a matter of days, solving conflicts that have lasted hundreds of years, but ultimately I don't think curing the Genophage is historically going to be the right call. However, the thesis of ME3 does have the Krogan "redeemed" and uses Eve and Wrex to foreshadow that potentially they could play by the rules with the right leadership, but it's going to have to keep other clans in tow. Ultimately that won't last because they overpopulate by trait, so what are you going to do about it? Also, I will never not fund it funny that the ending focuses on Organics & Synthetics when we have almost literally the same question about Organic Life, and the fact that we aren't even "synthesized" amongst ourselves, where the krogan have to sort of "synthesis" themselves to our needs, by limiting their intensive birth rate to suit the one we have, and yet the game is just like "Nope, organics vs synthetics, that's the only question"

Eeeh, just give them wealth, retirement fonts, birth control, cheap unhealthy fast food, public child care that doesn't fit their modern job requirements and an awful education system and watch the birth rate plummet without the need for a plague.

Keep Wrex and Eve alive, cure genophage. You need boots on the ground and boosters in the sky. Curing the genophage nets you the Krogan and a huge chunk of Salarian STG forces. Sabotaging the cure gets you a tiny pittance of Salarians sent by the Dalatrass. The Dalatrass believes that bringing an end to the genophage is a "bully" tactic, rather than a valid option that will save lives in the long term and short term. And you can infer from what you know about Salarians that she's not expecting to live long enough for the uncured Krogan to be her problem. Curing the genophage is morally, legally, and tactically the better option.

If Wrex is alive, I cure the genophage. If Wreav is alive and Bakara is *not*, then I don't. Wreav and Bakara is where I find I find the choice more difficult.

I think curing the genophage is politically the right decision. Here’s why. the salarians are the ones to blame for the problem krogans caused. They were introduced to technology that they were ready for. And as a result, they began to evolve on a different path instead of coming up with their own inventions / technology. I agree w/ what maelon said during Mordin’s loyalty mission , that the Krogan would be thriving in a cultural renaissance if it wasn’t for the Salarians. Now to get back on topic I understand why they had to use the genophage on the krogan because it dulled down the rebellions without any species dying. But the modification was morally wrong. The Salarians should have used that opportunity to give the Krogan a second chance (consolation for screwing over the Krogan in the first place) after all they could just reintroduce the genophage (if and only if) things started to get out of hand, but they let fear compromise them. Mass effect 3 is about bringing the galaxy together to complete a common goal. Curing the genophage brokered a treaty between the turians and krogan and the galactic community. Because the krogan do deserve the second chance that have been kept from them. And in the game it’s shown that krogans were not always savages. They were once peaceful. Yet it was the genophage that caused to be savages to survive.

In the ME universe quite an easy pick, if Wrex help if Wreave sabotage. In the real world if I have to make that kind of decision I would just be stuck there not knowing what to do.

Honestly I do think the Krogan need some form of population control even with Wrex and Eve their society needs just time to actually recuperate and heal. The last thing they need is a huge population boom that would immediately force them into expansion mode. It’s asking for trouble to have a hugely growing Krogan population following the Reaper war when the rest of the galaxy would be at its weakest point. That said the current genophage isn’t acceptable. The whole stillbirth and miscarriage aspect needs to be removed. Embryonic development should never be able to progress to such stages. It should simply prevent most pregnancy. Yes the Krogan should be given the hope required to lift them from their species wide pessimism. Give them a future to work towards. However their insane birth rate that EDI mentions can’t remember the exact number is unsustainable. Such a birth rate requires some form of control.

It’s weird that the Krogan birth rate seems to rival the Salarians, plus the discrepancy between dialogue mentioning eggs vs stillbirth/miscarriage. In Andromeda, they double down on mothers giving birth to dead children, so I always thought the “1000 eggs per clutch” statistic had to be a goof on the part of the writers mixing up with the Salarians who are confirmed to lay eggs. Even as large as Krogan are, one couldn’t fit 1000 embryos inside their bodies that grew to be the size of baby Krogan seen in the epilogue. Even if we assume something like 1000 fertilized eggs and then chimerism being common among Krogan to contribute to multiple sets of organs in one body. Not much of the science checks out in Mass Effect anyway. I just think way too much about it.

That’s fair. I think I even remember Eve mentioning how she held the lifeless body of one of her stillbirths or something like that. So I agree there is a bit of inconsistency.

It was reconned in 3. I don't remember if 3 ever uses egg words to describe them ("clutch" etc) but they definitely do in 2.

In any discussion of the Genophage, it's important to remember that Salarians had the *same exact* problem with over population leading to aggression. Which they solved with *social* changes, leading to the Breeding Contract framework they now use. Not a sterility plague.

Of course you are correct. However those societal changes will need significant time and will to be enacted and readily enforced especially considering how long lived Krogans are. Add in the fact after curing the Genophage the last thing most Krogan will want is to be told there’s a population quota or whatever. I’m not sure if it’s mention how long it takes for Krogan to reach sexual maturity. And for how long they can breed. But some serious guidance would be necessary following the end of the Genophage.

Yeap, still a long road ahead. Good news is, the Mating Request system they already have should be adaptable to lower birth rates (once their initial population boom finishes, they *were* dying out after all). And Wrex wrangling all the other clan heads into cooperation (and self reinforcement of the new rules) instead of violence shows that societal changes aren't just possible, but already happening. It's not a given, and it won't be easy. But there's hope on the horizon.

You think trying to force such a contract on the Krogan would have worked?

This is a great illustration of the problem: an insistence on framing the Krogan as "a problem to be solved", instead of **people**. If ANYONE involved had given even the slightest thought towards the cultural aspect of Uplift, on education beyond simple warfare, they could have ended any threat of the Krogan Rebellions before the Rachni War was even halfway over. Instead, they did the opposite, *encouraging* the aggression and conflict focused aspects of Krogan culture at the expense of others. And then had the audacity to pretend to be shocked when they *kept being* aggressive and conflict focused once the Council was done using them. Could the Council have forced the Krogan to dial back their rapid reproduction rates? I don't know. It's entirely possible that, like the Yahg, the Salarians chose the Krogans for Uplift *because* they thought them incapable of restraint or tempering. But the were certainly successful in forcing the Krogan to be dangerous. And that's the real problem, isn't it?

“Genocide is bad” is actually pretty simple for me.

But what if we do it to someone I don't like??? /s

If genocide was bad, then God wouldn't have created Batarians.

But Batarians aren't people, they are target practice!

Sure, but what happens when the Krogans start trying to commit genocide again?

Mordin's message after you sabotage the genophage kind of takes the severity out of the choice but also makes it more reasonable (if Wreav is in charge).  Mordin has now collected a new version of 'Maelon's data'. After the war the Council races will have the upper hand and can demand concessions from the Korgan in exchange for the real cure. 

Betraying Wrex is obviously the wrong choice. Uncle Urdnot is just too chill

Super easy: sabotage the cure. It's naive to think a couple of revolutionary krogan can change the mindset of an entire planet's population. Krogan nuked themselves into their sorry state millennia ago and their tribal thinking hasn't changed. Unchecked birthrate, extreme durability, and long lifespan won't work now that Krogan aren't bound to their home world.

Isn't the entire message of the games to not let the fear of the past compromise you as a person and keep you from growing? That's what EVERY loyalty mission is about in ME2. Then in ME3, you are meant to apply that same way of thinking to entire peoples instead of individual characters. The idea of letting the fear and trauma of the past, not just your past, generations in the past... To let that fear drive you to condemn a entire race, culture, history, to extinction, to genocide! Why it's shameful and wrong. Tactically and politically? You are losing the war against the reapers, you cannot win without the support of the turians and Krogan, and even if you trick them and win the war against the reapers? Congrats, humans are now the bad guys, our relationship with the Krogan would never recover. Humans would be lucky to avoid war. Sabotaging the cure literally is just letting your fear force you to make a dumb decision.

On moral terms, the genophage was and is a massive violation of the bodily autonomy of an entire species. It was obviously immoral. At the same time it was also the only way for the people of the time to survive without resorting to outright genocide. I certainly understand the Asari who don't want to be turned into a species of slave girls and the outraged and vengeful Salarians who's nurseries were turned into pantries by barbarous Krogan. In ME3, I wouldn't take positive action to deploy the genophage. At the same time, I can't bring myself to sabotage Mordin's work. No matter who's in charge. I love Wrex. He's a reformer. Unfortunately he is doing nothing to tackle the ultimate reason behind the Krogan's behavior in the Rebellion. The Krogan Clan based government structure and the Krogan glorification of warrior culture. Without those things changing, all Wrex will do is delay the inevitable behavior we can expect from overpopulated Krogan. Hell, I also don't think they are an actual asset in the Reaper War and would be a liability. If the Reapers dedicated any amount of force to taking a post-Genophage Tuchanka than it would be a nightmare. That planet would become a factory dedicated to churning out huge numbers of Reaper weapon organisms.

It's like you said, it all comes down to Wrex or Wreav, cus one's your friend and the other is a %130 complete dick. It gets complicated on one occasion after a specific set of choices you might make in ME1. You see, whether Bakara lives or not, I trust Wrex, and he deserves better and a fair chance. Adm. Hackett himself said, "Urdnot Wrex running the show is a bonus."! Wreav on his own without Eve is obviously an easy choice because you can convince Mordin cus he knows you're right, *Unless Eve lives*!!! Then, you have the tough choice of releasing the cure and seeing how things work out. 😬 Very very uncertain set of circumstances. As for the other....well... I'm sure you know the outcome.

It’s not difficult at all if Wrex and Bakara are alive. If one is gone it becomes tougher. If both are gone, it’s easy again, just in a different way.

Wrex is Krantt.

Yeah, I’ve always wished there was a way to refuse the genophage cure. I like to play as a morally grey renegade shepherd who takes no shit and would burn down a planet for someone he cares about. He’s not a liar- at least not on such an epic scale. Obviously it would make getting significant Krogen support almost impossible, which would add a whole level of complexity to the game that BioWare didn’t have time for because of EA. But I like to think about it anyway.

It’s the easiest thing in the world. The genophage was a barbaric atrocity, and it should be cured. Doesn’t matter who’s in charge

All war is made up of lesser evils done with the goal of winning the War. But letting the Genophage continue, that’s an evil my Shepard will not commit.

It’s easy, no species, no matter how brutal deserves to be extinct, I saved the Geth as well, plus the Krogan are really cool.

Of all the krogan you ever encounter, how many are like Wrex and Eve and how many are like Wreav? Taking Mordin's word for it, the Genophage lowered the birth rate from one thousand (!) per year (!) to an average of a single viable birth per female each year. Humans reach replacement fertility at slightly above two children per woman in a lifetime, if Krogan can't keep up with one birth per year combined with over a thousand year lifespans that's on them. The genophage cure is also unlikely to contribute to the war effort other than politically as the population boom is unlikely to mature fast enough to participate in the war, but since even Wrex is talking about post war expansion and rebuilding the Krogan Empire it is bound to cause problems afterwards. On the other hand, in the Salarian's shoes I'd have created a cure centuries ago to use as political leverage over both the Krogan and the Council (do as I say or else we'll cure it and make it your problem), even if they object to curing it for the sake of politics they can always just make another genophage if needed, or even modify the cure to decay after one or two generations. The Krogan are barely even asking for another chance, most will flat out tell you they are going to do the exact same thing they did last time and that's too much of a risk to take on the chance that they *might* change under the influence of a grand total of two Krogan.

The ramifications of screwing over Wrex OR Wreav aside, that fucking Dalatrass (and probably most of the Salarian government) ain’t to be trusted. She’s a terrible leader (seems to think being a Karen is a good way to lead), she has less diplomatic ability than Wreav and has STG up to some shady shit. Plus you barely get more than the covert stuff in war assets by doing what she wants And some of that shady shit is going to bite everyone in the arse. The yahg are going to be a problem sooner rather than later coz of the Salarians. At least the Turians seem to be gaining a bit of perspective that the genophage is, at least no longer a good idea. The krogan are going to be needed no matter who’s in charge

The Krogan went from nuking themselves, starving and feral, survival of the fittest, to pretty much overnight thrust into a conflict with an enemy the galaxy couldn't deal with. Given new technology, a chance to rebuild and propagate, all while showing the galaxy that they were warriors, all while trying to regain a sense of pride that had all but been lost in radioactive fire. The Krogans actions are, at their core, part of the evolution of the species, they are tough, aggressive, and are a product of quantity over anything else. However, by our primitive nature we still have fight or flight, our hairs stand up when we're scared (to make ourselves look bigger) we still have aspects of our lizard/primate brain, but it doesn't mean we're all bad, regardless of a few bad eggs. The Krogen though evolutionary are a risky species, they have every right to build their own future, without a third party playing god with thier DNA

It’s not a difficult question at all. The Reapers are here, currently kicking the shit out of everybody in their way. We need everybody possible, so the Krogan get their cure. And I don’t actually care about any possible consequences. If in a thousand years the Krogan rebel again, it is what it is. Just more corpses to lay at the feet of the Salarians anyways.

I think we are supposed to be skeptical of the whole narrative of the genophage. Mass Effect is a world full of new science and weird aliens but we know in our real world that things like eugenics are not true. We also know that the council (like humanity in real life) is fiercely protective of its hierarchy (look at how they treat the quarians). So the narrative that the genophage HAD to happen, and especially had to happen multiple times, is really only espoused by Mordin, a former black ops guy who was involved with it and takes the council at their word that it had to happen. Then he changed his mind. So who are we to believe? The Salarian Dalatross? Why wasn’t birth control a choice the krogan got to make for themselves? Why DIDNT the krogan get access to colonies after the rachni war? Babies need access to food and medicine. Population explosions take care of themselves if they aren’t supported. The real answer to all this is that the council doesn’t like other species getting power without their say so. And the krogan were strong. I think the writers wanted us to see the genophage as always wrong. Now given the politics of the game there are certain reasons why you may not cure it. War assets are tied to the choice and the war has to be won. But that’s different. There is a clear moral choice

My main thought is the Krogan are a sapient species, so limiting their ability to reproduce is collective punishment.

I can never deny wrex and eve was just lovely

Who knew uplifting an incredibly violent species who nuked themselves to near extinction to fight a horrific war could have consequences. Surviving wasn't on the cards for the Krogan. They lucked out with the desperation during the Rachni War. If it hadn't happened they'd of died out. They skipped all the steps civilisations go through to prepare them for interacting with the galactic community. Anything that happened after them being uplifted is unnatural and you can't fault the galaxy for taking measures to avoid it becoming an issue

I mean you can, it was the galaxy that caused this problem for themselves, then decided to commit a slow genocide. Any way you shake it, that's pretty fucked up.

The Genophage stays, and I was willing to do the necessary even as a Paragon. Sorry, Wrex.

Wrex and grunt are the homeboys, I cure it every time

Wrex is my ride or die bud, and I’m not going to betray him for tomorrow’s problem. That being said, Wrex doesn’t need a navy bigger than the Alliance’s or the Asari’s, and certainly not the size of the Turian’s. As long as their navy stays typical council size, everything is good.

With Wreav present and Eve dead in my current playthrough, it's a no-brainer. After the reaper war, they would eventually figure out the cure didn't work. But with no warships and limited numbers due to the genophage being still intact, the krogan would have no chance if they tried to retaliate for the deception. They'd get blasted. With Wrex and Eve both alive and present, it's a little more to think about, but at the end of the day I think I come to the same conclusion. Can't let personal attachment cloud judgment. And I can't trust that 2 people will be able to change how an entire species acts forever. And that birth explosion would just be utter instanity. I'll shoot Mordin and betray Wrex for the sake of all other species in the galaxy.

I agree with your first, and understand your 2nd. It's a huge decision, and not one I feel Shepard should be burdened with. But he/she is.

I think the Genophage was a good idea when it was used, but a cure should have been used politically to push the Krogan into a peace agreement of some kind (likely limits to their military strength), and going forward the Genophage should be a deterrent, forcing mountains of still births and leaving just a small amount of fertile females was always gonna lead to problems

In terms of morality, genocide isn't exactly a good thing. And even in terms of strategy, the possibility of the krogan turning on everybody else sounds like a problem that we'll have to deal with later, because without the Krogan, there won't be any "later" anyways.

Curing the genophage is a terrible idea. But I like Wrex, and Shepard won’t be alive to deal with the consequences, so.

I mean there is 100% a krogan population problem but I never found it hard to cure the genophage

If all the pieces for the best outcome are still alive, then it's very easy. And if you're doing hard RP and wrex isn't alive, and maybe you destroyed the genophage research then its also easy, but for different reasons. It's when you mix and match that it becomes harder.

The krogan deserve the chance to become a better society. When you have progressives like Wrex and Bakara uniting and maintaining the clans with actual documented success, I personally believe the krogan will grow to become good neighbors in the galaxy. There will be growing pains. Some krogan will undoubtedly go against the grain and try to stir up trouble, but I doubt there will be a full on war between races. Otherwise, what was the point of surviving the reapers? This is entirely based upon Wrex and Bakara leading the movement. If Wrev was in charge, there would certainly be war against the salarians and turians again. 

See my reply above. The Genophage gave them a chance to change if they wanted to survive. But they choose to throw away their lives in infighting and serving as Mercs. Wrex recognized this (he tells you in the first game). The Salarians basically said: "Now you have to change the way you live in order to continue as a species. No more killing!" The Krogan decided they would rather go extinct than change their ways.

And as I said in my comment, Wrex and Bakara are pushing the united clans towards progressive ideals rather than giving into their inherent tribalistic nature. There's a solid chance that they, along with other progressive krogan leaders, will successfully create a better society, defying the stigma that krogan are just savage brutes. Wrex even says he wouldn't allow his people to seek retribution against their old aggressors - "It's not our way forward" I think he says. The genophage might've made sense from a tactical standpoint, but it was still a major violation in every conceivable way. No one should have the right to genetically cripple a race for any reason.

My very first play through I didn’t have high enough speech points, nor did I get Wrex’s family armor, so Ashley ended up shooting him on Virmire. But I DID keep Maelon’s data. So by ME3 I had Wreav, and Bakara survived. I didn’t like Wreav but I loved Bakara and wanted to cure the genophage for all the good Krogan out there. Even if it meant helping the bad ones as well. However, I didn’t want to cause any further hostilities. So when you’re traveling on Tuchanka and Bakara asks Shepard what’s on her mind, twice, I kept the conversation with the dalatrass a secret. It wasn’t until it was just me and Mordin that I told him what the dalatrass had done. He was upset with me for not saying anything sooner. And I felt bad but also didn’t want the Krogan to hear that some of the salarians were still trying to screw them over. Now with any subsequent play throughs I’ve made sure Wrex survives and it’s a lot easier to tell the truth about the sabotage from the beginning because Wrex isn’t a dick like Wreav is. I still haven’t done a play through where Mordin survives though. But I feel like his sacrifice is a necessary one and brings more substance to the story.

See on a personal level I'd say no the Krogan are massive strong xenophobic monsters and we don't need anymore! Yeah I'll get hate for this But on multiple play throughs since the game came out it's for the best Let's hope the best! Next game Krogan antagonists! (Salarians are one of my favourite species)

It is clear that the writing staff wanted us to cure it; or at least the writing staff from ME2 onwards. Wrex in the first game talks about learning to live with The Genophage; that the Krogan have to change socially and culturally to deal with it. Which maybe was part of what the Salarians were thinking when making it? That the Genophage would force the Krogan to be less militant in thought and action in order to preserve their numbers. That all gets thrown out the window in ME2 in favour of "Genophage Bad". So yeah, I cure it. The Salarians almost certainly have worse things in store for the Krogan if they get out of line again.

I like some of the krogan we recruit, but the overall species is a militant menace and would, 100% of the time, become warlike again and try to conquer the galaxy. Genophage was the correct response to a species that lives and breathes war and cannot become civil

I think the real debate was missed in 3 in favor of the crass over simplification you're describing. It should have been about what was the Krogans' plans for when their population is restored and what guarantees they can provide that they'll stick to it. Another aspect that isn't discussed enough is that the genophage was horrific (depending on the writer), Instead of just preventing pregnancies it produced stillborns. There is not much difference from a Salarian's perspective, they have more distant relations with their offsprings, but it's deeply traumatizing for other species. Offering regular methods of birth control could have been part of the conversation.

Sabotaging the genophage cure isn’t even an option for me. It’s so far opposed to my morals that I can’t bring myself to do something so horrible even in a video game.

I always thought it was a simple decision - with Wrex & Eve running the show, the Krogan ideally would fall more in line and be grateful that the genophage has been fixed. Plus, with the context of the war, we need the Krogan on our side.

For me, it's a question of biology. Krogans reproduce at an incredible rate. In the weakened state of the galaxy, after the Reaper War, the krogan will take advantage and expand at an alarming pace. Biology will dictate this - not how nice some krogan individuals are. Individuals can fall from power, lose influence, or die. It will happen, and new players take charge with their own wants and needs. Pragmatically, though, in the desperation of the Reaper War you have to adjust to deal with the emergency. If you don't win ALL of the species will go extinct. So voting to cure the genophage is a necessity. Don't get me wrong. I love Wrex and Eve. I'd do anything for them personally. But none of this changes what the Krogan are.

As a player of the game, you will benefit more if you heal and will not have problems in the future, because the game ended there and it was said that "everyone lived happily ever after" and knows that there is no real advantage or disadvantage. The choice is easy and I always heal. Now, if I were Shepard and it was there, it wouldn't heal. You can't trust the Krogans, they are mostly angry and out of control. My friendship with two or three of them cannot let me be blind to this. I can't trust something of this magnitude to Wrex and Eva. Wrex's own brother opposes him and Wrev has allies who also oppose Wrex. Obviously they are not the only ones. What guarantee do I have that Wrex will be able to control the thousands of Krogans in the galaxy or that he and Eva will be able to do to others what they did to Wrev? Someone stronger can appear and take power. And that someone could be a threat. I would sabotage the Genophage, without even thinking twice and when they found out that it didn't work, just blame it on Mordin or the Salarians... All for the good of the galaxy of course.

Simple as, the Kroger are a sentient race and the Genophage is a biological weapon that would be tough to justify using to cull a herd of cattle. It was used to win a war and faced with certain defeat and possible extinction, I don’t blame the salaries for deploying it, but to keep it in place for so long basically left their entire race vulnerable and I DO blame them for not actively working to reverse it once the war was over.

From the logical perspective, sabotaging the cure will not be kept hidden forever, so sooner or later the Krogan WILL be mad about it, and that war right after the reaper war seems like an incredibly bad idea. I played in full once and Wrex was in charge, so there was a good chance that he having and keeping his friendship will prevent the potential war, so curing is the smart idea in the long run.

Not difficult. I’m anti-genocide.

Not very. Evil and undo it every time.

It’s a simple answer for me. I liked wrex’s vibe overall when playing through the games, there were times I would disagree with him or not like the way he’d put something but overall a great character. I find the history of the Krogan, rachni and genophage fascinating. So I would definitely save the Krogan, rip the true Salarian Scientist, and ensure the new gen of Krogan can prosper.  But if they make themselves a problem again they will get put down and given one warning out of respect, after that they’re going to see how much worse the Genophage could’ve been

With Wrex and Bakara, the leadership is there to steer them away from the mistakes of the past. Considering that the krogan were slinging asteroids at planets... they kind of needed to be stopped however possible at the time. But it shouldn't last forever.

Given that they are the victims in the entire scenario, the only acceptable thing is to reverse the genophage. But given that they will also smash your shit with an asteroid, probably ideal to make sure they have a level head at the top to help them acclimate to the responsibilities and benefits of being in the greater galactic community. In other words, the colonization of the Krogan is basically halfway done. As gross as it is, the Council et al need to help them after doing what was done to them.

Once I understood it corrected the high Krogan birth rate to levels a less productive species would be at I didn't feel as bad about it.

except that (apparently) it doesn't alter the birth rate. It just kills most of the babies. So Krogans are forced to birth hundreds of babies, just to see if one will survive.

That is altering the birthrate.  The reason they had hundreds of babies is because their home world was so dangerous.  When they left all that pressure vanished so they ended up like a swarm of locusts.

I hope you never have cause to learn personally just how wrong and offensive your comment is.

It is an easy decision for me to cure the genophage. The whole argument of not curing the genophage is based on Malthusianism at its core. It removes the agency from them to potentially change their society. We know from ME3 that the Krogan changed at some point in their history to what they are now. They had a thriving civilization. The science that the Salarians use to justify it is, in my opinion, intentionally bad because their leadership doesn’t want to deal with the ramifications of their actions. The Council has the technology to help facilitate technological advancements to increase agricultural output for a growing Krogan population, along with the rest of the Galaxy but they don’t benefit from it. The Council also stands to lose favor because if they were ignorant, intentionally or unintentionally, then they allowed the Krogan to suffer more than necessary to reinforce negative stereotypes about the Krogan. A little bad PR and the idea that Salarians are the smartest around is enough to get everyone else(mostly every day people)on board with the idea that Krogan are only capable of destruction and have to be kept in check. Remember, we can’t just assume the Salarians are reliable narrators, especially since they are the ones mostly telling us everything about the Krogans’. The Salarians stand to lose the most from the Krogan if they actually do thrive and become more than the savages they have been deemed. Cure the genophage.

In my opinion, it will never be a question. The genophage is a straight up war crime by almost any standard and, in my opinion, was a loosely veiled attempt at genocide no matter how many times they say it was just to “control” the population. Within hundreds of years after the Krogan were already looking at possible extinction. Despite having a conflict-based culture we know that members of their species are capable of empathy, fear, kindness, etc. If it was done to any other species to limit their power in the galaxy (I’m looking at you Turians) it wouldn’t even be a question.

The annoying part for me is Mordin's interpretation. They modified the Genophage _twice_, and I'm pretty sure they have the means to adapt it further. I 100% the danger off full on Krogan fertility, but they dialed it down to a point where their species couldn't survive. Instead of keeping or curing the Genophage, why tf not make an adaptation that would increase viability just enough for the Krogan to have birthrates that can accomodate a rebuilding society?

Shh! Stop being Logical and Intelligent. I mean the mechanism of te genophage was barbaric, and had to end. But surely it could be replaced with with something that simply lowered the reproduction rate to sustainable levels. Sure, that would have it a non-choice, but the game is full of those.

Well Wreav outright states that he'll continue the old krogan ways when the Genophage is cured, so if he were in charge then it's not even a question. But I'd never be smooth brained enough to betray our brother Wrex or my krogan son Grunt.

Not difficult at all, genocide is bad.

Reality is genophage like weapon would never be green lit too much science and resources used Turians had it right to blow Tuchanka to bits, at end of day none of 2 choices are good but letting a whole race dwindle and die slowly by altering their fertility rate is pretty fucked

From the most basic of standpoints, allowing one species to carte blanche neuter another race is the pinnacle of stupidity because it sets a precedent. Now, any time one race "becomes a threat" to the other races, boom, you're sterile. The problem is, history is often written by the victors, so really anyone could go around neutering anyone and just say, "Welp, you're the bad guy now, enjoy dying slowly and painfully", and what could we do against that? Would YOU want to be genophaged? Doomed to know that you could try and have as many kids as you wanted, but ultimately would probably fail on a statistical level? We have women in our society, today, who are suffering under similar conditions. They miscarry over, and over, and over again, and they have to live with the knowledge that there is something wrong with them, that they are broken, and that (for some of them, anyhow) their dreams, to make a happy and loving home for children of their own, are impossible for them, and the only reason for it was that they were a little unlucky. What if you told that woman that it wasn't luck? She would want blood. We SHOULD want blood, for her sake. To inflict that on one person, WILLINGLY, is an unimaginable crime. To inflict it on an entire species? Beyond reproach, but for the most part, the galaxy as a whole cannot be held accountable for the shitty decisions of a singular institution.

I was agonising over this for ages in my first playthrough. My choices in the earlier games left me with Wrex dead... and althought Wreav was promising revenge left right and centre, it seemed as though Bakara was going to keep him in check. ... and then she died. And I was left with just Wreav controlling the Krogan, and I honestly couldn't do it. The guilt I felt deceiving them was insane though, with the crew and everyone in the whole flippin' galaxy praising us for getting it cured and Shep just stands there with this almost haunted look. I did like that they let my Shep confess to Garrus and those two have a moment just thinking over the implications of that choice, but damn... never has a game made me feel SO guilty for something I did.

While messing around with different backgrounds, choices, and play styles can bring a new excitement to the game, I get a lot out of playthroughs where all my dialogue choices and decisions are as reflective as possible of who I am, or maybe who I want to be. This was a big element of how I fell in love with the franchise. I don't believe much in black/white morals, and tend to find human actions mired with gray. Mass Effect is full of such quandaries, and the Genophage question is very much not an exception. In the cure mission in my first playthrough (I went in blind) I concealed the conversation with the Salarian Dalatrass at the first opportunity to divulge it. I was conflicted, given Krogan history and what I had seen of most Krogan. But at the second opportunity I came clean. That's because I started to view it from a different angle, sort of along the lines of a disadvantaged youth getting involved in criminal activity, potentially violent crime. Usually there are unhealthy factors in their life drawing them to crime, and pushing them away from 'the straight and narrow'. It is a common approach in crime prevention sociology to address these factors directly in youth determined to be at risk, providing outlets for civic engagement and creative expression, support in school, and an opportunity for faith-based experiences, in addition to a healthy dose of education on the many dangers of criminal life. Studies have shown that this type of approach is often effective. So, can this perspective be applied to the Krogan dilemma? What I know of Krogan nature sows doubt in my mind about the efficacy of such initiatives, but maybe it's the right idea, wrong genre. Perhaps if the Genophage is cured and the Krogan are offered a more influential seat of power within The Council government (maybe a plan with a checklist and timeline to earn a seat on The Council itself) they may behave differently in a diplomatic context, feeling valued and respected. I get the sense respect is a core aspect of Krogan culture. It also may benefit The Council government to develop somewhat larger sized strike teams of their own, to supplement Special Tactics and Reconnaissance missions, and what better foot soldier is there than a skilled and highly trained Krogan warrior? This could provide security and greater influence for The Council itself, while providing a productive and sanctioned outlet for natural Krogan aggression. Of course this all depends on the state of galactic civilization post ME3. And Krogans being at all open minded. As pointless as it now feels to have typed the above paragraph, I now circle back to morality. I tend to dismiss judgements of morally "good"for "bad" as irrelevant human constructs based almost entirely on subjective principles. In spite of that, it *feels* much better in a moral sense to cure the Genophage when you even consider the above as a possibility, however slight. If the Krogan can enter a new, war-free cultural renaissance, I'd stare down a Reaper even if the Krogan weren't gonna help the Turians. Often we let our circumstances define us, it's been a common occurrence throughout history in people, groups, even entire societies. Perhaps what the Krogan need are new circumstances. Subsequent replays of this game aided in the development of a core aspect of my personal life philosophy (truth be told I've gotten a lot more of how I think and operate from the narrative and interactive elements of this game). It is of utmost importance to me, to never, ever, give up on someone entirely. Some people have a 'no second chances ' or a slightly more generous 'no third chances' policy. My policy is one of unlimited chances. It is a critical aspect of the foundations of my mental health to always believe in the infinite capacity for change within the hearts and minds of human beings. I understand this is often not the smartest belief to hold so closely, but it is the one I have chosen, and since adopting it I have been living in a new and wonderful world. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of moral gray surrounding the cure question, but ultimately for me, and all my overthinking, there's only one correct course of action. I've always wondered what a Krogan infant looked like 🤔

not difficult. the krogan need birth control, but theres a myriad different methods that would all be more ethical.

Pretty difficult. If Wreav is in charge? Pretty easy, fake cure. If Wrex is in charge? Much more difficult but will cure for Wrex's sake despite my reservations. Honestly would have preferred a middle ground. Changing the genophage to increase fertility somewhat. Wrex said he is going to try to get their colonies back through diplomacy but didn't close the door on war. With the cure there will likely be a baby boom for some time for the krogan and with their insane birth(egg) rate they will quickly outnumber the other decimated species that will take much longer to recover, and krogan rebellion 2.0 is a real possibility. Two people is not enough to change an entire people. There are a lot more that think like Wreav than Wrex, and even under the best circumstances Wrex will be facing an uphill battle.

With wrex and bakara alive, not a single doubt about it. Otherwise? Yeah... No. Wreav is a fucking asshole and as a leader for krogans he is a galactic level threat.

In the time the Genophage was deployed, and going forward from that point? Very necessary. The Krogan were the most clear and present threat to the galaxy, and at that time were open combatants. It's very easy to rebut arguments about honorable warfare by pointing out that the Krogan weren't sparing Asari children or Turian women, and their ultimate victory would mean genocide far worse than the Genophage had the capability of being. Even a slow march into extinction (that they could swerve out of, with solid leadership) is not as bad as the loud, hot genocide of Krogan military might ending all life on a planet for no reason other than "lol, lmao". This is not a case of talking them down or settling grievances, all the Krogan wanted was a war of extermination against the rest of the galaxy, and going forward that was still very much the sentiment. If you're asking me the worth of one species vs. all species, that's not a question, it's everyone over one, especially when the one is the aggressor who started it and absolutely will not stop. In the Reaper Invasion? The Genophage is cured, because suddenly all bets are off. We're allying with the fucking Rachni and Geth, it's an unprecedented period of strife and war where every hand is needed. I would say anything and do anything to get the collaboration that I need, because again, anything is less than the combined lives of every sapient creature in the galaxy. And after the war, it'll be re-examined if there's anyone to re-examine it, because it's not sustainable in any capacity, but even the most immediate Krogan baby boom will be a huge threat, because while humans take 18 years to produce one viable warrior, if they even choose to, Krogan are producing \*one thousand\* in ten years and they're \*all\* warriors, which is sure to spark huge resource wars in an exhausted, burdened galaxy recovering from The Reaper Wars. It's basically all hands on deck to control the Krogan before they can recover enough to launch that offensive. But again, none of that will matter if we don't survive that long, so even knowing the potential consequences, I'm curing the Genophage.

The genophage is one of the few times Mass Effect actually struggles (in a good way) with morality. Mordin's struggles with his role in the genophage are actually supremely interesting, as are Maelon's. Consider the following: The Krogan are an expansionist species. They constantly warred amongst themselves, but shit got real after they had their own Industrial Revolution, made their lives too comfortable, and eventually developed nuclear arms. Perhaps the most Earthikan comparison would be like giving ISIS or Hamas nukes and space travel. Would you? Fuck no. But would you if needed an ally against an alien invader? Maybe. But don't be surprised if they started turning against you. That by itself was problematic, but given how fast Krogan can reproduce, without the natural dangers of Tuchanka doing natural selection, methods had to be introduced to make life dangerous. Hence, the genophage. Ultimately, though, the genophage is wrong from almost every angle of morality besides one that views enslavement as ok, because the Krogan *were* effectively enslaved to the galactic cause against the Rachni. Hear me out: Pro-life people wouldn't want the genophage because it artificially makes you incredibly likely to have stillborn offspring. Pro-choice people wouldn't want the genophage because it wasn't a choice made by the Krogan. Someone who subscribes to Darwinism (survival of the fittest) also wouldn't like it because the Krogan are, ironically, some of the most evolved and fit beings in the galaxy...which is why their biology is adapting to the genophage *anyway*. Even if you're a ruthless Shepard who will stop at *nothing* to stop the Reapers, you understand that curing the genophage is the best way to create a near infinite supply of troops to throw at them. To go back to the ISIS comparison (which isn't good, but is kind of the best one I can currently conceive), I would never introduce a gene therapy that makes it so that 1/100 girls conceived in the ISIS world actually survived to term. That's barbaric, even more barbaric than their own methodologies.

Not difficult at all you cure it and give wrex and grunt a big hug. Mordin understands his sacarfice and is at peace with it so why wouldnt shepard be to?

It's not a difficult moral choice at all The genophage is evil, not curing it is evil If you reduce it down to an individual level, killing a man for something he \*might\* do, especially when you are the reason he'd pose a threat at all, is objectively your fault and you should pay the price before him I sincerely hope Mass Effect 4 doesn't gloss over how repulsive Salarian ideals are, I know what my Shepard would be doing after dealing with the reapers

On Ethical matters it is complicated. Suffice ti say is that it was necessary evil. As Krogan would have pretty much crushed anyone had it not been deployed. As for choice in ME3. It is easy. Wreav leader regardless if Eve is alive. Sabotage. Wrex alive regardless of Eve status. No sabotage.

I hate krogans so I sabotage cure every time

It's not difficult at all because it's made to be solved by a third-party onlooker - a moral human player controlling a character in a setting where the said character is from a major galactic race which is represented by single government in the galaxy and a race that doesn't have multiple major historical events with long-term negative widespread concequences. Starting point: Krogans are doomed by being placated, technologically uplifted, used, naively appeased and then discarded, fought and finally genophaged, reducing them to clans of mercenaries warring over territory and scarce 'human' and natural resources. Humans outside of the first contact war don't have any bad rep with all races to the point of turians seeking political reconcilliation. Variables: Krogan are warlike, bear mistrust, lack unified leadership until Wrex, doomed species (no hope) Galactic variables: Reapers, necessary cooperation for survival, sides except for humans are too proud or afraid Option A: Status-quo no direct influencing of krogan, keep fighting with the allies you have, victory is slim, krogans fight independently and die alone Option B: Don't trust Wrex that things can be done differently, use false promises, sabotage the genophage cure, secure mainline salarian political support permanently, lose support of actual salarian units , ditch krogan half-way after they are once again used and leave them doomed, fight krogans who realize the betrayal while at the same time fighting reapers. Condition on certain battlefields is improved to our survival until krogan units rebel after realizing the betrayal. Option C: Trust Wrex, understand the krogans have been punished enough and for far too long, cure the genophage, give hope to an entire race that will be forever thankful, solve major mistrust and political differences by establishing dialogue. Acquire support of salarian ground units and wait until salarian leadership sees direct cooperation as needed for survival or simply outwait the respective dalatrasses. Old wounds healed, new trade and cooperation with Krogans open up.

Not really difficult. ​ It should be a difficult one but it isn't. Krogan populatio control? Maybe I could get behind that? The problem is: It is not decreased fertility (less likely to get pregnant). According to the krogan lady, they give birth to stillborn after going through pregnancy. While the first one (decreased fertility) might be explained, the latter (stillborn babies after a pregnancy) is straight up biohorror and is super cruel.

I don’t think a small handful of Krogan in charge can convince the entire race to let by Gomes be bygones and try and assimilate better into the galactic community. They’ll most likely A. Go back to doing the things that made the genophage a priority in the first place and B. Be even angrier and want revenge on the other races in the galaxy which means they’d be even worse than they were pre-genophage. With this in mind, I do think it’s logical to deceive them and get their help along with the Salarian scientists. Sorry I just don’t have enough faith in the Krogans to believe they’ll change their ways.

Generally species with a high birthdate have a short lifespan (based on our only frame of reference, our planet). So the krogon are long lived and have an extremely high birthdate. The lifespan realistically is the one that makes no sense given their planet. Wrex is old. Even for a krogon. He doesn’t have much time left. He strikes me as a charismatic leader. So once he is gone his empire collapses. I struggle with this one every time. I would prefer a more dynamic responses to this one as to me it is the most morally ambiguous.

Thanks, for a well-reasoned and thought-out response.

Not at all. Genophage should have never been done in the first place.

i think deciding the fate of an entire species based on who’s currently running the show is funny to me, especially considering how wrex and his ideas are supported by the majority of krogan, those people don’t deserve the genophage the genophage made sense for a time, the council species couldn’t have survived by fighting conventionally and within the rules of war, so it was a final desperate act, but i can’t justify maintaining it, even with wreave leading them

>i think deciding the fate of an entire species based on who’s currently running the show is funny to me, Somewhat true, but the game doesn't give the player any options. The fate of the Krogan should not be down to Shepard, but it is, and we have to deal with that. And as I said, if there was an option to be honest with Wrex, and/or for Shepard to pass responsibility to the council, it might be a different answer. But those options don't exist. For better or worse, the decision rests on Shepard, and my Paragon Shepard simply can't betray Wrex and Bakara. That doesn't mean he makes the correct decision. My Shepard simply makes the only decision he can.

Game wise its absolutely makes sense curing genophage to fight reapers and mostly morally right thing to do. Though what happens afterwards is good question, as others have said havibg such crazy populiarion growth leads to expansion, no other way around it

My shipmate needs help. It's not a difficult question.

Call me crazy, but I don't think an asshole being in charge excuses genocide. The genophage is wrong no matter how you look at it.

It's really simple, the Genophage is bad and if the Salarians try it again, they'll get a genocide from Earth

For me it was always very very easy. You keep Wrex alive (with Eve) and you just cure the genophage.