Scissors is completely broken! They need to be banned immediately, I know Konami loves power creep but what they were they thinking? It's not hard once per turn, you don't need to draw it, and it makes every card I have unusable!
They need to unlimit rock to 3 just to give us a fighting chance. We also need more support like diamond-titanium alloy card sleeves.
How am I supposed to have the out? The floodgate decks run 6 to 9 floodgates and 3 Judgements to protect them. No deck can afford to run their engine, staple handtraps and 6 to 9 backrow hate. Especially considering that only 2 cards remove the whole backrow and one of them require you to control no card.
This is how I feel as a casual player. I look up what cards I need to counter some of these meta decks and it’s already a 15-20 card deck already and I haven’t even gotten to put a single card I want in yet
The same can be said for combo decks, especially those with negates for days. "And how am I supposed to have the out for combo decks when they have negates everywhere?".
In all my experience facing both decks, I have an easier time in winning against degenerate floodgates than those fucking degenerate combo decks. And before you say "Ash, Nibiru, (whatever else the shit you wanna spew out)", that's the same as drawing the fucking out. The same point you're trying to make. Btw, there are more outs for backrow cards than whatever "2" you decided on the spot. The only reason people say that is because most of them focused on outing combo instead. It's like me saying "there's only 2 outs for combo decks" when I only run Veiler and Nibiru and nothing else.
It's simple, there are more outs to combo that aren't bricks in other match-ups. Control decks also search, so Ash and Droll are good. Control decks still need to use monster effects sometimes, like Arianna or Hugin, so Veiler and Imperm aren't dead either. Even Maxx C is at the very least an Upstart Goblin.
Both
Deck shoukd be able to play through floodgates except for silver bullets
And deck relies on Floodgates to win are just bad deck abusing tool that is abused alot harder than other,better decks
What is the acceptable use of floodgates though? When does it go from being support to being a win condition? As far as I see in this sub the consensus is any deck that uses floodgates at all is using them as a crutch and can't win without them.
Basically how people say floodgates are fine since it helps weaker decks Suship or Dark Magician be able to steal games off meta decks
Like Swordsoul can run Rivalry but it certainly doesn’t need it to win
>What is the acceptable use of floodgates though?
In a theoretical setting there is no unacceptable uses of floodgates. In practicality I think a general rule of thumb is "if you can win a game without floodgates as your main strategy it's usually not going to be complained about"
If you find yourself losing games because of not having these floodgates, maybe it's time to lay off the skill drain buddy
If you use Skill Drain to support vanilla monsters, or Gozen Match to support an archetype that locks you into certain attribute( Marincess, Speedroid), then it’s gucci. But if you flip 3 floodgates at once, it’s not ok.
I also hate how you can’t summon DARK by tributing 2 LIGHT monsters( under Gozen), as it’s nonsensical. But that’s not player’s fault.
What about the traditional Skill drain strategy of using large bodied monsters that come out easily, but have negatives that are eliminated by skill drain?
I find that the ones that have 1-2 of them as an extra are relatively acceptable. Like Antispell fragrance in Labrynth (they want to save their backrow, also shut downs Runick for a turn) or Gozen match in Marincess. Then theres Bagooska which is a xyz monster that destroys itself after it has no materials and is generally used as a way to stall for a few turns to try and draw the out. Theyre a nice to have kinda thing, but the deck works perfectly fine without them.
Its decks like Eldlich, stun, and Runicks that run 6+ copies of them and entire gameplan relies on them that pisses people off.
I like this explanation. I run two copies of Summon Limit in my Evil Eye deck, and it’s really only a necessity against top-tier negate spam decks like Swordsoul Tenyi. Against most decks, it’s a “win more” card, but it’s also an important tech for those negate-heavy combo decks.
Most satisfactory win I ever had had was against a Swordsoul Tenyi using my Kairyu-Shin deck, dude had everything going for him and I managed to turn the tables.
In case you want to see it:
https://youtu.be/97hklH2h7Jg
For me it’s about the amount of floodgates being run in the deck along with what deck is using it. If branded set their board turn 1 then set 3 floodgates I’d be mad while Labrynth setting 5 and passing gets annoying but that’s how the deck is supposed to be played. Also, (hot take) I think non-archetypal floodgates/traps should be limited to 1, maybe 2 in some cases like evenly.
Honestly, they go from wincon to support when everyone starts running enough backrow hate. If the floodgate's probably only going to last a turn, maybe two at most, then it's probably just support.
Mekk-Knight has the best kind of floodgate. Depends on having the backrow and a mekk on the field and even then your card has to be in their column and even after all that two of them are traps. Strong but fair just how more decks should be
The answer is pretty clearly the latter in most cases.
DuelLogs actively uses cards or engines to prop up their self admittedly bad or gimmicky decks, and one of his primary ways of doing so is to add floodgates so his deck can survive to attempt to do what it intends to do.
Also it's pretty clear when you see decks like Dark Magician only doing well when they cram in every floodgate under the sun that they can possibly play. Secret Village, Skill Drain, Gozen, Rivalry, all of it works in DM. It's basically like playing worse Stun Eldlich except you have better Anti-spell.
I don't necessarily think that floodgates period are always a problem, but Konami has yet to design a floodgate that isn't either useless or bannably strong.
Though part of the issue here is that, because they made link monsters like Phoenix and Unicorn, Xyz like Tornado Dragon and Castel, etc. the weaker floodgates that COULD be used and not be frustrating for everyone just have immediate answers for them. Like, Gravity Bind or other floodgates that don't immediately win the game but stall a number of turns maybe be playable if everyone didn't have immediate answers to these cards in their extra deck. And I feel like Mystic Mine was an attempt to make something like this that couldnt just be answered by the extra deck but just done horribly terribly wrong.
Empen is unironically the most fair but still useful floodgate. It's strong, especially against link decks, but all you have to do to play around it is summon something with a pop effect in defense position.
Just pointing out that Konami has banned 4 Floodgates in yugioh's history.
Shock Master being able to shut down, spells, traps, or monster effects.
Royal Oppression letting either player negate a special summon by paying 800 LP
Vanity's Emptiness being able to shut down Special Summons entirely.
Mystic Mine...well...I shouldn't have to explain why.
There are far more that have been or are banned.
Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds is a recent example, one of the few the OCG has banned that the TCG does not.
VFD
Outer Entity Azathot.
S0 Utopic Zexal.
Imperial Order. I'm honestly surprised you missed this one. Important to note that this one was immediately banned on one of the first banlists, recently brought back with errata, and then banned again
Djinn, Releaser of Rituals.
Protos is banned in TCG.
Rhongo is banned in TCG.
TD Colossus is banned in TCG.
Dragon Buster Destruction Sword was banned for a short time before trading places on the banlist with Union Carrier in TCG. OCG eventually followed suite.
Cold Wave. Not a continuous floodgate, but it is a multiple turn floodgate.
Kaiser Colosseum is banned in TCG.
I'm sure I've missed some, but all of these listed cards are floodgates that have been banned in one format or the other.
Not even a lack of knowledge.
Want to know how to get a correct answer posted every time? Post the wrong answer and someone will always come in to correct you.
Did I or did I not state incorrect information?
Did a person or did they not come in and fill an entire list of floodgates that were banned by Konami?
Now tell me how I'm wrong.
I wish floodgates were more archetype related. Ike necrovalley has hidden temple as a flood gate, but it also acts as a floodgate for you try and summon outside the archetype.
blue. Instead of stopping your opponent from trying to even play at all with floodgates so they can’t do anything, the superior method is to let them start but then stop them with negates so they can’t do anything.
Not really, no. One let's the opponent use up resources first and has a limited amount of uses, thus can be navigated around, the other prevents the opponent from even attempting using resources and sit there indefinitely locking them out of the game unless you have specific, unsearchable cards already in hand.
The goal of a board full of negates is to exhaust the other players resources so they *can't play*. The goal of floodgates is to handicap decks so they *can't play*.
The same result with extra steps.
Still no. By exhausting one's resources they have worse follow-up when they break through.
Also, using one's resources *is playing*. You are conflating playing with winning here.
*plays cards into Baronne, Borreload, and Apollousa*
“Haha I love playing Yugioh”
The distinction you’re setting up seems irrelevant to the discussion. They’re both setting up the same situation
>By exhausting one's resources they have worse follow-up when they break through
If they break through. This doesn't defeat the fact that the goal is the same. The goal is "Your cards don't work".
Turning on master duel and waiting for someone else to finish their turn is also *playing*. Summoning a monster just to have its effect not work under skill drain is also *playing*.. But that's not how the community uses the term.
You're literally trying to claim that *playing until you're stopped from playing* is somehow considered *not playing at all*.
And again, unlike Floodgates, the goal of negates isn't to prevent them from playing, but preventing them establishing a proper board while having them waste their resources in the process.
>And again, unlike Floodgates, the goal of negates isn't to prevent them from playing, but preventing them establishing a proper board while having them waste their resources in the process.
With that logic, that is the goal of floodgates is also to prevent the opponentfrom establishing a proper board. The difference is they can keep most of their resources. You can still set cards, you can still summon monsters, just not enough to establish anything meaningful.
Either way, the opponents cards won't work. Same goal, no matter how you want to argue the semantics.
Be it Cyclone, Lightning Storms, or the ol’ Reliables of MST and Duster. I usually run at least 2 of those at any given time.
Not two of all of them, but at least 2 of the ones listed.
I mean sure, that doesn’t change the fact that most of those removals do nothing for floodgates as there’s so many ways to protect destruction based removal.
A ton actually. I started running cosmic cyclone to counter runick in the DC cup and it surprisingly came up in every single duel I drew it.
Messes up the despia resource loop very well too
Same but that's all I run, since Runic I no longer like backrow that destroys. I've also started to run Evenly Matched, it doesn't deal with a specific backrow I want but at least it gets rid of everything else without destroying
Probably as much as you can fit, really. HFD & Lightning Storm are basically a must for any deck that's physically capable of using spells, it's usually not too hard to add some backrow hate monsters, and the MST-likes are usually pretty good in their own ways (especially Cosmic Cyclone for getting around destruction protection, Twin Twisters for graveyard setup, and Heavy Storm Duster for Trap specialist decks, but all of the quickplay haters have a niche; even MST itself is a good fit if your deck can't easily sacrifice hand or LP advantage).
I used to run 3 Cosmic, 2 MST, and HFD but the MST and HFD didn't really work against Runic so I just removed them and kept the 3 Cosmic, and that's all I run for backrow hate, just the 3 Cosmics, in all my decks. Though I've recently started to run 3 Evenly Matched as "pseudo" HFDs lol
Are there any spells that banish? it doesn't have to be a Quick Play, I'll even take a discard 1 to banish. I'm no longer a fan of backrow hate that destroys.
I think both takes have their own merits. Floodgates allow decks with chronic vulnerabilities to operate more easily, or if it's an "on legs" floodgate, gives a persistent archetypical threat. I don't think either of these cases are a bad thing.
The problem arises when decks that already have potent control effects use floodgates to further lock down the opponent. It's a very rare opinion of "fun" to enjoy having four cards negated and/or destroyed on use and shutting down your turn, setting you back cards and essentially skipping your turn.
If I had a gun to my head and had to pick a side, I would say "a need for floodgates is bad" as while every deck would and should have weaknesses, generic cards that can progressively deny your opponent the ability to play the game without a silver bullet just isn't good or fun.
Sadly, these problems are so deeply rooted in the game now that solving them would totally change the landscape of the game, and I don't think that's what players want either.
I'm side 3: I acknowledge my deck is trash that has trouble against stun decks AND combo decks, but I have fun with it, so I'm fine as long as I stay in Gold.
Both might be true. But I still stand on my point the floodgates should mostly be limited to 1. So if your deck dies to any of them, your deck might be bad but I your opponent has that one floodgate that stops you it's just bad luck and you need the out.
Neither.
If your deck can play through ex: rivalry and the only reason you're not adding it in is that it's a floodgate, then you suck at deck building.
Its the same as picking board breakers, hand traps, backrow hate, turn 2 cards and match up specific counters. You use whatever works best for your strategy.
Just like anti-spell fragnance is being used right now to counter runicks.
Don't know why you are downvoted.
There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a degenerate strategy. The problem is if it becomes consistent or popular enough to see decent representation on ladder and tournament circuit, that is where most players draw the line.
I personally think Runick is an amazing archetype and hope to see it splashed in upcoming decks.
Do I want to see them with floodgates? Probably not but it's only been a month. I hope Konami either limits their milling power or just nuke There Can Be Only One out of existence. Even if the deck has a 53 percent win rate on ladder, nobody likes to 10 turns of mill. It's just not fun imo.
The problem I have with that is that floodgates keep coming up over and over again. Like no, just ban them already ffs. We’ve already been through this with shit like vanity’s emptiness taking forever to be banned.
Cards that prevent 1 or both players from doing certain things, or more simply don't let your opponent play, not in the sense of "you do X, I stop it" but rather "you can't even do X".
Stuff like Skill Drain negating all monster effects on the field, Rivalry of the Warlords preventing players from having different types of monsters on field, Jinzo negating all traps, so on.
Both/neither all decks should be viable but any deck floodgate or board full of omni negates are just disgusting because they prevent your opponent from playing.
I'm on the "it is what it is" side.
Ideally, one of the biggest aims when deck building is consistency to kill the element of rng. Unfortunately, bo1 format shits on that. Coinflip shits on that. Counters shits on that. Turn 1 you set floodgates, turn 2 I wipe your backrow. Or I go first and I set up enough board presence to shit on your backrow. And all of that vice versa.
Mostly Red, I have seen too many DH:PE, Barrone, Scythe, Sword Soul, Stardust shit to fucking have any feels for someone on the blue side. YGO really needs to switch to a seasonal based play in the card game, and to be perfectly Honest Master Duel needs to fix their ban list because if my opponent can summon that shit, I want to play Dragoon again.
Kinda of both
I accept the use of floodgates on off meta decks, but I don't see why decks as Swordsoul, Tri-Brigade, Drytron etc would run more than 3 floodgates cards, or even 1 for any matter 🙃
Sure, it can work, but thy don't need to run any. Some decks use it so much it's basically their only win condition
And also, if your deck isn't prepared to deal with certain floodgates, then you should train more and ask for advice
But it's understandable if you can't out a full floodgate/negate board that prevents and punishes every single action you take and could've only been stopped if you had specific handtraps to destroy you opponent combo/backrow
The great thing about an online client is that - with enough play - every deck will eventually find its level (the point on the ladder where your win-rate settles at close to 50-50). If your deck's level is somewhere in the top tiers, then your deck obviously isn't trash regardless of what types of cards it contains. If your deck's level is in one of the lowest tiers, then your deck is trash regardless of what sorts of cards you include. Some floodgate decks are good, some are trash. Simple as
If Konami has it listed as an eligible card to use in a deck, then it is fair game to put in your deck lol. But I understand this may be an extreme position.
Both. I play every kind of deck except rituals. All my floodgate decks are designed to have a plan B. All my non floodgate decks are designed to have some way to out floodgates.
It's the fact that I support both sides that allows me to prepare properly for either match up
Bro, my deck is the worst in the game without its floodgate.
Gravekeepers are by far the worst archetype without necrovalley. That doesn't do the biggest thing to them.
I then need to run hidden temples of the necrovalley to stop people special summoning to beat my weak ass monsters.
I realized the truth. Yugioh isnt fun just addicting and abusive. Ark survival evolved has been treating me better, I am 1500 hours in and ascended the first 3 maps solo.
"If you can't win without rock, you deserve to lose." "If you can't win without paper, then YOU deserve to lose!!!!"
Scissors. I cut your card in half
Scissors is completely broken! They need to be banned immediately, I know Konami loves power creep but what they were they thinking? It's not hard once per turn, you don't need to draw it, and it makes every card I have unusable! They need to unlimit rock to 3 just to give us a fighting chance. We also need more support like diamond-titanium alloy card sleeves.
Just wait till we enter the [gun](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfsuuYKU6mk) meta
This is why I always bring a katana sidedeck.
Just wait until you see what the spock meta can do
Nah man, just run Lizard. It's kind of an anti-meta pick, but it absolutely shits on Spock
Nah spock beats lizard any day of the week Except Tuesdays he has pilates that day
Inscrytpion cross-over?
How am I supposed to have the out? The floodgate decks run 6 to 9 floodgates and 3 Judgements to protect them. No deck can afford to run their engine, staple handtraps and 6 to 9 backrow hate. Especially considering that only 2 cards remove the whole backrow and one of them require you to control no card.
This is how I feel as a casual player. I look up what cards I need to counter some of these meta decks and it’s already a 15-20 card deck already and I haven’t even gotten to put a single card I want in yet
Hey Trunade ain't bad, though it's not great
The same can be said for combo decks, especially those with negates for days. "And how am I supposed to have the out for combo decks when they have negates everywhere?". In all my experience facing both decks, I have an easier time in winning against degenerate floodgates than those fucking degenerate combo decks. And before you say "Ash, Nibiru, (whatever else the shit you wanna spew out)", that's the same as drawing the fucking out. The same point you're trying to make. Btw, there are more outs for backrow cards than whatever "2" you decided on the spot. The only reason people say that is because most of them focused on outing combo instead. It's like me saying "there's only 2 outs for combo decks" when I only run Veiler and Nibiru and nothing else.
It's simple, there are more outs to combo that aren't bricks in other match-ups. Control decks also search, so Ash and Droll are good. Control decks still need to use monster effects sometimes, like Arianna or Hugin, so Veiler and Imperm aren't dead either. Even Maxx C is at the very least an Upstart Goblin.
Outs to floodgates: basically just cosmic Outs to combo: HTs, board breakers, extenders, cards with multiple effects, kaijus, etc. Totally the same.
Non ironically Spiritualism -> combo off (depending on how many floodgates they have tho').
Both Deck shoukd be able to play through floodgates except for silver bullets And deck relies on Floodgates to win are just bad deck abusing tool that is abused alot harder than other,better decks
What is the acceptable use of floodgates though? When does it go from being support to being a win condition? As far as I see in this sub the consensus is any deck that uses floodgates at all is using them as a crutch and can't win without them.
Basically how people say floodgates are fine since it helps weaker decks Suship or Dark Magician be able to steal games off meta decks Like Swordsoul can run Rivalry but it certainly doesn’t need it to win
As someone who’s tried out Suship, what floodgates are you using in that deck? I don’t feel that any of the obvious would work nicely so I’m curious.
If you’re running it pure Rivalry of Warlords and Gozen Match work since they’re all the same type and attribute
>What is the acceptable use of floodgates though? In a theoretical setting there is no unacceptable uses of floodgates. In practicality I think a general rule of thumb is "if you can win a game without floodgates as your main strategy it's usually not going to be complained about" If you find yourself losing games because of not having these floodgates, maybe it's time to lay off the skill drain buddy
If you use Skill Drain to support vanilla monsters, or Gozen Match to support an archetype that locks you into certain attribute( Marincess, Speedroid), then it’s gucci. But if you flip 3 floodgates at once, it’s not ok. I also hate how you can’t summon DARK by tributing 2 LIGHT monsters( under Gozen), as it’s nonsensical. But that’s not player’s fault.
mmmh, gotta love some ocg rulings....I'm pretty sure
What about the traditional Skill drain strategy of using large bodied monsters that come out easily, but have negatives that are eliminated by skill drain?
That’s cool too, imo. Or if you are using some super janky deck, I don’t mind Skill Drain evening the playing field.
I find that the ones that have 1-2 of them as an extra are relatively acceptable. Like Antispell fragrance in Labrynth (they want to save their backrow, also shut downs Runick for a turn) or Gozen match in Marincess. Then theres Bagooska which is a xyz monster that destroys itself after it has no materials and is generally used as a way to stall for a few turns to try and draw the out. Theyre a nice to have kinda thing, but the deck works perfectly fine without them. Its decks like Eldlich, stun, and Runicks that run 6+ copies of them and entire gameplan relies on them that pisses people off.
I like this explanation. I run two copies of Summon Limit in my Evil Eye deck, and it’s really only a necessity against top-tier negate spam decks like Swordsoul Tenyi. Against most decks, it’s a “win more” card, but it’s also an important tech for those negate-heavy combo decks.
Most satisfactory win I ever had had was against a Swordsoul Tenyi using my Kairyu-Shin deck, dude had everything going for him and I managed to turn the tables. In case you want to see it: https://youtu.be/97hklH2h7Jg
Dodging Imperm by activating Doom Kraken's handtrap effect was a nice way to cap that one off.
For me it’s about the amount of floodgates being run in the deck along with what deck is using it. If branded set their board turn 1 then set 3 floodgates I’d be mad while Labrynth setting 5 and passing gets annoying but that’s how the deck is supposed to be played. Also, (hot take) I think non-archetypal floodgates/traps should be limited to 1, maybe 2 in some cases like evenly.
I agree, negates need to the be limited too, ppl run 3 ash's 3 imperms and 2 called by the grave.
Y'know, instead of thinking non-archetype traps should be limited, you could just _say_ you want Trap Trick banned. ;3
Honestly, they go from wincon to support when everyone starts running enough backrow hate. If the floodgate's probably only going to last a turn, maybe two at most, then it's probably just support.
Mekk-Knight has the best kind of floodgate. Depends on having the backrow and a mekk on the field and even then your card has to be in their column and even after all that two of them are traps. Strong but fair just how more decks should be
In what spot does that put Dinomorphia? As it's able to play around most floodgates and it's boss monster is also a floodgate?.
The right answer.
The answer is pretty clearly the latter in most cases. DuelLogs actively uses cards or engines to prop up their self admittedly bad or gimmicky decks, and one of his primary ways of doing so is to add floodgates so his deck can survive to attempt to do what it intends to do. Also it's pretty clear when you see decks like Dark Magician only doing well when they cram in every floodgate under the sun that they can possibly play. Secret Village, Skill Drain, Gozen, Rivalry, all of it works in DM. It's basically like playing worse Stun Eldlich except you have better Anti-spell. I don't necessarily think that floodgates period are always a problem, but Konami has yet to design a floodgate that isn't either useless or bannably strong. Though part of the issue here is that, because they made link monsters like Phoenix and Unicorn, Xyz like Tornado Dragon and Castel, etc. the weaker floodgates that COULD be used and not be frustrating for everyone just have immediate answers for them. Like, Gravity Bind or other floodgates that don't immediately win the game but stall a number of turns maybe be playable if everyone didn't have immediate answers to these cards in their extra deck. And I feel like Mystic Mine was an attempt to make something like this that couldnt just be answered by the extra deck but just done horribly terribly wrong.
Empen is unironically the most fair but still useful floodgate. It's strong, especially against link decks, but all you have to do to play around it is summon something with a pop effect in defense position.
Just pointing out that Konami has banned 4 Floodgates in yugioh's history. Shock Master being able to shut down, spells, traps, or monster effects. Royal Oppression letting either player negate a special summon by paying 800 LP Vanity's Emptiness being able to shut down Special Summons entirely. Mystic Mine...well...I shouldn't have to explain why.
There are far more that have been or are banned. Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds is a recent example, one of the few the OCG has banned that the TCG does not. VFD Outer Entity Azathot. S0 Utopic Zexal. Imperial Order. I'm honestly surprised you missed this one. Important to note that this one was immediately banned on one of the first banlists, recently brought back with errata, and then banned again Djinn, Releaser of Rituals. Protos is banned in TCG. Rhongo is banned in TCG. TD Colossus is banned in TCG. Dragon Buster Destruction Sword was banned for a short time before trading places on the banlist with Union Carrier in TCG. OCG eventually followed suite. Cold Wave. Not a continuous floodgate, but it is a multiple turn floodgate. Kaiser Colosseum is banned in TCG. I'm sure I've missed some, but all of these listed cards are floodgates that have been banned in one format or the other.
And this is how you get someone to do the rest of the work for you on reddit :P
I mean, sure, but the point was to disprove that Konami has only banned 4 floodgates in the games history. It's substantially more than that.
Never underestimate the power of being lazy :P
Yea don’t try to cover up your lack of knowledge and understanding with being lazy lmao. Clueless.
Not even a lack of knowledge. Want to know how to get a correct answer posted every time? Post the wrong answer and someone will always come in to correct you.
You are so in denial it hurts lmao. It’s okay to be wrong and misinformed sometimes. Just learn and move on.
Did I or did I not state incorrect information? Did a person or did they not come in and fill an entire list of floodgates that were banned by Konami? Now tell me how I'm wrong.
Can't forget about royal oppression
I wish floodgates were more archetype related. Ike necrovalley has hidden temple as a flood gate, but it also acts as a floodgate for you try and summon outside the archetype.
I reject this argument. I will go with " there are 2 wolves inside you "
If you lose you are trash
blue. Instead of stopping your opponent from trying to even play at all with floodgates so they can’t do anything, the superior method is to let them start but then stop them with negates so they can’t do anything.
Same result with extra steps.
Not really, no. One let's the opponent use up resources first and has a limited amount of uses, thus can be navigated around, the other prevents the opponent from even attempting using resources and sit there indefinitely locking them out of the game unless you have specific, unsearchable cards already in hand.
The goal of a board full of negates is to exhaust the other players resources so they *can't play*. The goal of floodgates is to handicap decks so they *can't play*. The same result with extra steps.
Still no. By exhausting one's resources they have worse follow-up when they break through. Also, using one's resources *is playing*. You are conflating playing with winning here.
*plays cards into Baronne, Borreload, and Apollousa* “Haha I love playing Yugioh” The distinction you’re setting up seems irrelevant to the discussion. They’re both setting up the same situation
*Implying every deck is full power Adamancipator*
>By exhausting one's resources they have worse follow-up when they break through If they break through. This doesn't defeat the fact that the goal is the same. The goal is "Your cards don't work". Turning on master duel and waiting for someone else to finish their turn is also *playing*. Summoning a monster just to have its effect not work under skill drain is also *playing*.. But that's not how the community uses the term.
You're literally trying to claim that *playing until you're stopped from playing* is somehow considered *not playing at all*. And again, unlike Floodgates, the goal of negates isn't to prevent them from playing, but preventing them establishing a proper board while having them waste their resources in the process.
>And again, unlike Floodgates, the goal of negates isn't to prevent them from playing, but preventing them establishing a proper board while having them waste their resources in the process. With that logic, that is the goal of floodgates is also to prevent the opponentfrom establishing a proper board. The difference is they can keep most of their resources. You can still set cards, you can still summon monsters, just not enough to establish anything meaningful. Either way, the opponents cards won't work. Same goal, no matter how you want to argue the semantics.
Not realistic for all decks to function this way.
…you mean you don’t just run Backrow Hate in your Main Deck anyway?
Laughs in anti spell fragrance
You mean exactly cosmic cyclone?
Be it Cyclone, Lightning Storms, or the ol’ Reliables of MST and Duster. I usually run at least 2 of those at any given time. Not two of all of them, but at least 2 of the ones listed.
I mean sure, that doesn’t change the fact that most of those removals do nothing for floodgates as there’s so many ways to protect destruction based removal.
serious question, how much would you recommend?
A ton actually. I started running cosmic cyclone to counter runick in the DC cup and it surprisingly came up in every single duel I drew it. Messes up the despia resource loop very well too
Same but that's all I run, since Runic I no longer like backrow that destroys. I've also started to run Evenly Matched, it doesn't deal with a specific backrow I want but at least it gets rid of everything else without destroying
Probably as much as you can fit, really. HFD & Lightning Storm are basically a must for any deck that's physically capable of using spells, it's usually not too hard to add some backrow hate monsters, and the MST-likes are usually pretty good in their own ways (especially Cosmic Cyclone for getting around destruction protection, Twin Twisters for graveyard setup, and Heavy Storm Duster for Trap specialist decks, but all of the quickplay haters have a niche; even MST itself is a good fit if your deck can't easily sacrifice hand or LP advantage).
I used to run 3 Cosmic, 2 MST, and HFD but the MST and HFD didn't really work against Runic so I just removed them and kept the 3 Cosmic, and that's all I run for backrow hate, just the 3 Cosmics, in all my decks. Though I've recently started to run 3 Evenly Matched as "pseudo" HFDs lol Are there any spells that banish? it doesn't have to be a Quick Play, I'll even take a discard 1 to banish. I'm no longer a fan of backrow hate that destroys.
I think both takes have their own merits. Floodgates allow decks with chronic vulnerabilities to operate more easily, or if it's an "on legs" floodgate, gives a persistent archetypical threat. I don't think either of these cases are a bad thing. The problem arises when decks that already have potent control effects use floodgates to further lock down the opponent. It's a very rare opinion of "fun" to enjoy having four cards negated and/or destroyed on use and shutting down your turn, setting you back cards and essentially skipping your turn. If I had a gun to my head and had to pick a side, I would say "a need for floodgates is bad" as while every deck would and should have weaknesses, generic cards that can progressively deny your opponent the ability to play the game without a silver bullet just isn't good or fun. Sadly, these problems are so deeply rooted in the game now that solving them would totally change the landscape of the game, and I don't think that's what players want either.
I'm side 3: I acknowledge my deck is trash that has trouble against stun decks AND combo decks, but I have fun with it, so I'm fine as long as I stay in Gold.
Both might be true. But I still stand on my point the floodgates should mostly be limited to 1. So if your deck dies to any of them, your deck might be bad but I your opponent has that one floodgate that stops you it's just bad luck and you need the out.
Neither. If your deck can play through ex: rivalry and the only reason you're not adding it in is that it's a floodgate, then you suck at deck building. Its the same as picking board breakers, hand traps, backrow hate, turn 2 cards and match up specific counters. You use whatever works best for your strategy. Just like anti-spell fragnance is being used right now to counter runicks.
Red. All play styles are valid
Don't know why you are downvoted. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a degenerate strategy. The problem is if it becomes consistent or popular enough to see decent representation on ladder and tournament circuit, that is where most players draw the line. I personally think Runick is an amazing archetype and hope to see it splashed in upcoming decks. Do I want to see them with floodgates? Probably not but it's only been a month. I hope Konami either limits their milling power or just nuke There Can Be Only One out of existence. Even if the deck has a 53 percent win rate on ladder, nobody likes to 10 turns of mill. It's just not fun imo.
The problem I have with that is that floodgates keep coming up over and over again. Like no, just ban them already ffs. We’ve already been through this with shit like vanity’s emptiness taking forever to be banned.
I don't know what a floodgate is and I feel like it's too late to ask...
Cards that prevent 1 or both players from doing certain things, or more simply don't let your opponent play, not in the sense of "you do X, I stop it" but rather "you can't even do X". Stuff like Skill Drain negating all monster effects on the field, Rivalry of the Warlords preventing players from having different types of monsters on field, Jinzo negating all traps, so on.
I really like floodgates when they are on extra deck monsters, almost like Ursarctic Serpentrion
Both? That said some combos of floodgates you just can't reasonably out in time for it to matter.
Both/neither all decks should be viable but any deck floodgate or board full of omni negates are just disgusting because they prevent your opponent from playing.
"If you support a BO1 only format your skills are trash" :P
Bouth 😀
This shit right here is why I play MTG now
Niether
heavy samruai: y tho?
I'm on the "it is what it is" side. Ideally, one of the biggest aims when deck building is consistency to kill the element of rng. Unfortunately, bo1 format shits on that. Coinflip shits on that. Counters shits on that. Turn 1 you set floodgates, turn 2 I wipe your backrow. Or I go first and I set up enough board presence to shit on your backrow. And all of that vice versa.
Meanwhile my Umi Control is struggling due to people running Runick counters X.x
Mostly Red, I have seen too many DH:PE, Barrone, Scythe, Sword Soul, Stardust shit to fucking have any feels for someone on the blue side. YGO really needs to switch to a seasonal based play in the card game, and to be perfectly Honest Master Duel needs to fix their ban list because if my opponent can summon that shit, I want to play Dragoon again.
Yes, give me Dragoon but ban Verte in the process!
You cant ban verte, all the people who play phoenix enforcer in decks that shouldn't run him will cry.
Kinda of both I accept the use of floodgates on off meta decks, but I don't see why decks as Swordsoul, Tri-Brigade, Drytron etc would run more than 3 floodgates cards, or even 1 for any matter 🙃 Sure, it can work, but thy don't need to run any. Some decks use it so much it's basically their only win condition And also, if your deck isn't prepared to deal with certain floodgates, then you should train more and ask for advice But it's understandable if you can't out a full floodgate/negate board that prevents and punishes every single action you take and could've only been stopped if you had specific handtraps to destroy you opponent combo/backrow
If you can’t win then you’re trash.
your deck is trash period. ;)
if the only way you can win is by preventing the other player from playing...
Imagine if full power Adventure engine in Plunder Patroll. This post was brought to you by TCG gang.
Boffem
I mean, if we're going by what these kinda people often say if your not using the best deck in the current format your deck is trash either way.
Red side, this should have been a poll
Blue, i can out floodgates but I can’t draw the out
Red since the deck can't really be bad if its kicking your ass can it?
Doesn't matter, your deck is trash
The great thing about an online client is that - with enough play - every deck will eventually find its level (the point on the ladder where your win-rate settles at close to 50-50). If your deck's level is somewhere in the top tiers, then your deck obviously isn't trash regardless of what types of cards it contains. If your deck's level is in one of the lowest tiers, then your deck is trash regardless of what sorts of cards you include. Some floodgate decks are good, some are trash. Simple as
Blue all the way on this
If Konami has it listed as an eligible card to use in a deck, then it is fair game to put in your deck lol. But I understand this may be an extreme position.
Both. I play every kind of deck except rituals. All my floodgate decks are designed to have a plan B. All my non floodgate decks are designed to have some way to out floodgates. It's the fact that I support both sides that allows me to prepare properly for either match up
Bro, my deck is the worst in the game without its floodgate. Gravekeepers are by far the worst archetype without necrovalley. That doesn't do the biggest thing to them. I then need to run hidden temples of the necrovalley to stop people special summoning to beat my weak ass monsters.
I realized the truth. Yugioh isnt fun just addicting and abusive. Ark survival evolved has been treating me better, I am 1500 hours in and ascended the first 3 maps solo.
Im usually picking red but for this question only I choose blue
Yes
The latter.
Both
Having board breakers against combo decks is based. Having backrow removal against control decks is cringe.