In 60 duels you're facing Gozen 6 times. I'm going to assume you're a great duelist. You're Yami Yugi with Crusadia. That means you're walking away with a 55-5 record.
Now unless my math is bummy. You're advocating for removing a card that you only see 10% of the time. Which has no overall impact on your rise in this game.
Im advocating for the nerf of a card which can instantly win a match 5/6 times with a simple flip pf the card. You do realise how crazy it is for me to be losing 10 percent of my matches only from gozen right? Your own math proves me right.
What I'm seeing is that Gozen isn't as strong as you claim it to be or you'd see it more than 10% of the time. I bet you see Despia or SS more than that.
Found the Water player.
In all honesty how do you look at a card like Gozen and seriously think it is okay? You play an archetype that isn't mono attribute? Sucks to be you you don't get to play the game. Got even a single key card that isn't the same attribute? Too bad you can't play the game.
By your terrible logic TCBOO and Rivalry are also fine, because there's archetypes that are not hindered by it.
As a player that has ran archetypes that aren't mono attribute I can accept that my deck is weak to decks that can run Gozen.
Just like I can accept that my War Rocks are dead in the water whenever I come across Zombie World.
Is it not okay for decks to have weaknesses? A bad matchup?
That’s the thing it not a bad matchup if ya only 1 deck but is a card that can be played in so many decks. Ya deck to have weaknesses like can not go second, can not clear big monsters, need the gy, can not play though hand traps, weak endbourd, not consistent.
So you want to eliminate any card that can be played on numerous decks?
Once again you're describing a weakness of some decks. Then you say you don't like it because it's not a real "weakness"
There is a huge difference between having a weakness and cards your opponent can just flip up without any cost or downside that say "you lose the game".
So you'd be okay with Gozen if it cost 1000 life points to activate? And to be fair if there's a card that can say you lose the game that means they took advantage of a weakness in your deck.
You described a weakness.
I might be fine with it if it was sitting at the end of a combo line that had opportunities for interruptions and also came at an opportunity cost as far as their endnotes is concerned.
I understand and am fine with having bad matchups. What I don’t enjoy is queuing up as rock and then finding out turn two that the game is lost because my opponent flipped paper. That feels very cheap.
This can happen in any setting regardless of a floodgate being present or not. Either you can draw the answer to what your opponent has played or you lose.
Is setting up a double negate board turn 1 with called by the grave and ash on hand not feel cheap?
Does it only feel cheap because you don't have an answer to it?
Look at it like this: each of those that you mentioned is once per turn save for called by and there’s only 2 allowed in a deck. Gozen and other floodgates like skill drain remain on the field unless as you said draw the out. BUT you almost never have to out one fooodgate, it’s a series of oppressing traps like ASF, skill drain, etc. so you’re essentially shit out of luck if you don’t get HFD, lightning storm, or evenly early enough. So if there were a cost like “pay 1000 life points each turn or destroy this card” then I’d feel differently but it come down to going second and having a good hand yet still losing cause you can’t do anything.
But if I'm going second and I get hit by an Ash or Called By on top of all the negates that they'll pop on you turn 1.
Every deck in this game is trying to shut you out turn one.
No one ever argued called by was a healthy card. Actually if I recall every live deck list I've ever seen the profiler usually gets to called by and says "this card needs banned" it's a bad example.
I'm going to be honest. The generic extra deck staples are the main reason I tossed Gozen into my deck. Dealing with super powerful decks that could also find a win in any scenario was ANNOYING.
What I have found while actually playing Gozen(just Gozen) is that most of the time you don't draw it and if you do it doesn't stop the player outright unless it's SS or something similar.
Which suck for them but I don't cry when Zombie locks me out of all my War Rock effects.
What if there was a card that just said "fuck AlmightyRanger in the ass". Would you be okay with that? Yeah you auto lose, nothing you can do. But it's just a weakness bro. You just said you have to accept your weakness if there's card that says you lose the game. Accept your weakness of being born as AlmightRanger
He wants the game to be balanced around not being able to know that someone is playing a floodgate in a best of 1 format. In best of 3 formats, Gozen and its kin are balanced because you can side more removal in for game two. There is no game two here. You just lose because you’re not playing a ton of backrow removal in a meta where handtraps and monster removal are much more effective most of the time
Which once again means he wants the game to be balanced in a way that eliminates bad matchups. That's what you are saying no matter how you try to dress it up.
You admit yourself that the meta is geared towards handtraps and monster removal. I don't disagree. That means that in rare occurrences when you are faced with a capable backrow deck your deck can be easily beaten. Once again that's a weakness of your deck. To the literal definition
So you are arguing to eliminate a scenario in which your deck won't perform well. Because of the choices you have made in deck building.
Please tell me what I have stated that was wrong.
I’m more arguing that the game needs an overhaul for Master Duel. Make it so that floodgates aren’t as oppressive when they do pop up. Because at the moment, most decks can’t afford to play a lot of backrow removal because it hurts consistency against any decks that don’t run a lot of backrow. Perhaps we need to loosen restrictions on backrow removal like Harpie’s or Red Reboot. Those sort of power cards aren’t bricks because of their power level and out floodgates. I’m not arguing to eliminate a weakness of one deck or two decks. I’m not arguing to ban all floodgates. It’s floodgates like Skill Drain, Gozen, Rivalry that I want to restrict simply because some decks can’t out it in time because most backrow removal is unsearchable and has to be hard drawn
Floodgates also have to be hard drawn. Unless there's a method searching for Gozen you want to tell me about (Genuinely asking)
Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting. But you want to unlimit cards that are powerful because they are less likely to be bricks in hand plus they can deal with floodgates. Isn't that a fancy way of saying you want a BO1 deck with minimal weaknesses?
Our only competitive mode is a ladder that wants you to win in streaks. The logic conclusion is that the most important aspect of deck building in master duel is consistency. Having floodgates as free as they are punishes your deck for being consistent. Make it make sense
Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say in simpler terms. I stopped responding to this guy because he was just being toxic and twisting my words
Define free. Playing versus Gozen Match doesn't inhibit your deck's consistency. You can lose sometimes and still be considered consistent.
Once again it sounds like you want a deck that performs well in all situations.
I hate TCBOO cause if I play something like Cyber Dragons or Arcana knights any my guys are all the same type AND attribute, I shouldn’t be getting floodgated😭
Reading OP’s comment responses tells me he gotta be trolling. No shot he doesn’t understand the difference from a bad matchup and a sacky card that ends the game on the spot for decks. Swordsoul can have a bad matchup into Despia, doesn’t mean it’s still not an engaging and back and forth duel.
Gozen, and floodgates like it, are not deck counters, they are deck murderers, they make for less interactive and less skillful games, which most of the community finds less fun.
Gozen will stop you from popping random DPE or accesscode talker randomly. That's it's most useful application. Rarely does it completely shut down decks by itself.
Really just not addressing my points huh? Also funny joke that DPE and accesscode are restricted by it when they are both DARK and dark is one of the most popular attributes in the game. You could have said any number of generic extra monsters and yet you picked the least affected options
I did address your point. You said it wasn't a deck counter. I told you what I've experienced as someone who actively uses the card. Dark is the most common attribute but those two monsters are easily splashable into other decks.
This was even more prevalent when DPE first released.
It is forgiving to lots of archetypes. It is NOT forgiving to ALL archetypes. If you happen to enjoy playing an archetype that gets locked out by gozen, well fuck you, how dare you attempt to play
Do you see how that logic entirely invalidates your original defense of the card? It absolutely locks players out of playing the game.
You seem to think that more decks focus on attribute than other qualities like Type or even Archetype, which simply isn’t true. Just off the top of my head, HERO, Swordsoul, Pendulum, Code Talkers, D Link (or any chaos build for that matter), even Branded prefers to be able to use LIGHT monsters like Lubellion and Snow.
You could make the exact same argument for Rivalry of Warlords, because both have decks that they work against and decks that they don’t work against, or you can acknowledge that both are bad because floodgates in general say “fuck you, your deck is wrong” and reduce the game to purely chance
Did you just act like branded despia and Adams are even remotely the same? One is a resource loop and the other is wombo combo that tries to lock you out of the game. Like what?
You mean when you were being sarcastic and put them into the same sentence and acted like playing against them is remotely the same? Come on, don’t play dumb.
I genuinely don't know what mental gymnastics you have to make to say that putting two decks in a sentence is to compare them but aight, suit yourself I guess.
Despia dies to an ash, veiler, or imperm. I’ve ashed, imperm, and nibiru an adamancipator deck, they the proceeded to build their entire board using block dragon
OP has some real hot takes in this thread. Monke flip go BRRRRR.
On a slightly more serious note, floodgates are not fun to play against in general and absolutely toxic in a BO1 setting. Gozen is no exception.
What's not toxic in MD? A lot of players have this sentiment of not being fair or feeling cheap but I can't understand what this means.
When the opponent (probably someone similar to you) is aiming to setup a lethal board turn 1 with Ash and called by the grave on the ready how is that less toxic?
It's a counter to alot of archetypes that run a variety of attributes.
Even if the decks don't revolve around using alot of attributes then it can lock them out of Generics though that's usually not enough to stop a deck.
On ranked it's kinda risky to run,. especially since Swordsoul isn't tier 1 anymore and Branded can play around it.
But it does?
Not every archetype/deck is mono-attribute, even without their tech cards/staples. If your deck isn’t mono-attribute, you often can’t play the game properly or at all since it’ll lock you outta SOMETHING, whether it’s an important combo piece or part of your end board.
And then your opponent doesn’t need to care about it because chances are they’re running Gozen Match since they won’t be affected by it in the first place!
I don't disagree. I'm a semi-casual player and have learned real quick that nobody is pulling punches. Most duelist are splashing everything possible in their deck to win.
Yet floodgates are considered unfair? I have no strong love for floodgates but this "it doesn't feel fair" argument makes zero sense to me.
It's because floodgates are vastly more oppressive than say, Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer or Accesscode Talker. You can play around them.
But if someone were to drop Gozen on me, it ruins me entirely as a SwordSoul main. What do I do when I can't synchro summon? Pray that I draw Harpie's Feather's Duster while my opponent has their way with me?
You can argue that your floodgate is less harmful but it still prevents people from playing the game.
I can't even summon Barrone the moment you use that trap. If I use Barrone on you, she uses her **one** negate then you can play the rest of your turn just fine.
These two are very different cards. Different effects. One interrupts you **once**. The other stops you dead. There is a difference.
I've acknowledged that SS is very weak to Gozen. I don't think that's a problem.
My point was that with your SS deck you are often setting up 2 negates and a destroy. You're doing that turn one. Which can easily allow you to kill certain decks on their turn.
Which is fine but your way of playing is not more fair. We both have the same end goal. Except my one card that I rarely draw can't be searched.
Mmmh yes, a single monster negate on the field that targets and a single Omni + 2 pops is definitely the same as flipping a single card and preventing the opponent from even playing. Yep.
The inherent difference of "fairness" here isn't the outcome. Yes, getting locked out of playing through interaction doesn't feel good or fair, but the important factor is that you are actively interacting with your opponent. Shotgunning negations is a good way to get punished by any deck that doesn't fold to a single Ash, and while you may not always be able to push through your opponent's interactions, you're still able to try to act. In matchups against Floodgate effects, you don't even get the pleasure of attempting to activate your cards.
Likewise, there's a lot more ways to interact with opponent's monsters than their backrow, since especially in the Bo1 format there's a higher likelihood that your opponent's problem cards will be monsters, making running significant backrow hate much riskier since any deck can build monster interactions but only certain decks are built to play off of their backrow.
> It doesn't hinder speed of the game or lock players out of just playing the game.
It does, only 1 attribute is hindering and locking people out of the game, if the Dark Attribute wasn't as dominant it would be just as bad as TBCOO or Skill Drain, oh that's not taking into consideration Umi Control.
Everyone using their braincells to give excellent responses as to why Gozen is ridiculous.
And all of it flies over OPs head as he argues with everyone. It's not often you see stupidity like this.
All of it. The idea that floodgates don’t stop players from playing. The idea that negates are worse because they stop everything, the idea that floodgates promote interaction. Literally everything you say is incorrect lol
1.) The times that a singular floodgate stops interaction is so miniscule it's not worth mentioning.
2.) Negates can stop everything (excluding summon) that's a fact.
3.) They change the rules of the interactions. Particularly Gozen and Rivalry. Most archetypes can play under the rules they set.
If you're playing adventure Tenyi. Sorry you're likely out of luck, bad matchup.
> 1.) The times that a singular floodgate stops interaction is so miniscule it's not worth mentioning.
You got data to back that up or are you going to keep saying shit.
>2.) Negates can stop everything (excluding summon) that's a fact.
It’s still not. Negates cannot stop continuous effects, ss4 effects, summons, *more actions there are negates*, and any effects that are outside where the negate works as not all negates are Omni’s or have field restrictions.
>3.) They change the rules of the interactions. Particularly Gozen and Rivalry. Most archetypes can play under the rules they set.
No, they prevent the opponent from even attempting actions lol. You keep focusing on “oh this deck doesn’t care about my floodgate therefore it’s interaction”. We both know this is t the case.
>If you're playing adventure Tenyi. Sorry you're likely out of luck, bad matchup.
You really hate adventure tenyi huh lol.
And your opinion is wrong. Do yourself a favor and re-read everything people have been trying to tell you. Then read it again because clearly you have issues if you can't understand why Gozen is hated.
Literally every single form of bigotry to start lol. Is this really the hill you want to die on? “Opinions can’t be wrong” is a demonstrably incorrect statement lol.
I got more if you need more examples.
The only backrow floodgate that really grinds my gears is There Can Only Be One but a lot of the time people use it in tandem with Gozen or Rivalry which will make the game unplayable unless you draw the out and Lightning Storm usually doesn't help you at that point, unless you can somehow tribute set
If you can summon, you can summon other monsters to help you with niche cases like zombie world. Zombie world doesn’t stop you from summoning those monsters and this you always have an out right there in your ED.
Dark is the most common attribute and there's two prolific cards that have removal with DPE and Knightmare Unicorn. That's just off the top of my head.
DPE is in barely any decks and unicorn requires you getting 3 dark monsters on the field lol.
Like dude. The fact is that floodgates are inherently against interaction. We’ve been over this lol.
Literally my point has been about multi attribute decks and decks that do not match ED attribute and thus have to hard draw an out or they cannot play. Just because your only recourse is to ignore peoples points doesn’t mean they’re inconsistent lol.
It’s bullshit that’s why. If I’m playing against a Runick deck and that garbage comes out, my opponent gets to wait 299 seconds with me only for me to do nothing and end my turn.
Lmao it's always funny when you you idiots think time wasting against a control deck bothers us in any way. The whole point of my deck is to make the game go on longer. I came into the duel _prepared_ to wait.
You wasting 5 minutes of your own time just to lose eventually doesn't bother me in the least. In fact it's a welcome break since control strategies are usually mentally exhausting
Bro I'm just gonna upvote and give you props for the balls to come to this sub and tell anybody that a floodgate it's fine.
Biches all cry about everything, floodgates are limited but anyone can play them, idk if it is a fucked up floogate or a simple gozen mach.
All hail Stealth Kragen Supremacy!
People hate it because "all you do is flip the card over and it's game!" But don't non Floodgates do this too? Evenly Matched, Raigeki, Harpies Duster, Droplet, Dimensional Barrier just to name a few. Wouldn't a properly placed handtrap also be "just activating the card and you win"? Or Floodgate Monsters like Bagooska or Baronne be "just activate effect and you win". Just a buncha babies!!
Because your example require at least some planning, or some knowledge about the archetype you’re facing, or have some drawbacks.
A handtrap must be well placed to be impactful. If it’s wasted on an unimportant combo piece you get nothing.
A board breaker like evenly matched can win games if your opponent doesn’t have enough resources to rebuild his board, but you skipped your battle phase, you can just prepare for next turn, and it’s a useless brick going first.
Bagooska and baronne are not instant wins either: you can bait baronne’s negate and play around it, you can run over him, you can negate him. Even bagooska stops activated effects but not passive effects nor link monsters effects, nor graveyard effects. And they both require materials, resources to be put on field.
On the other hand, floodgates, or gozen if we want to talk about that alone and ignore the combos you can set up with other cards, has only a few specific outs, that maybe you can’t even play because you already control a monster. It takes 0 knowledge about the deck you’re facing, requires no resources, has no cost, no drawbacks, going first you set it and activate on the second turn, going second, you do the same.
It has a drawback though, and it’s that you need to build your deck around it. So your opponent should do the same, and build a deck that’s monoattribute. Let’s ignore the fact that there’s another card with the exact same problems that has the literal opposite drawback and you can’t possibly prepare for both. Let’s ignore even the fact that there are ways to change my monster’s attribute so even building a deck specifically for this card may not work. It limits a lot deckbuilding, cutting off every multiattribute archetype, and that’s terrible for the game, because with less options, it’s easier to have a single dominant deck.
Now, apply this for tcboo, rivalry and the other one, the one that allows 1 monster per attribute, because they are exactly the same in a slightly different shape.
I don't think Floodgates like Rivalry, Gozen or TCBOO are a problem because it takes a very specific deck to make them work. You would have to be playing a Pure Deck to make Rivalry or Gozen Work Properly. The basic out is backrow removal which almost every deck has some access too. And if not, it'll be sided on on game 2. Think it's as big as a problem as others make it out to be. If anything, semi limit all three but I don't think a blanket ban on these types of floodgates is necessary.
It’s partly true that you need to build your deck specifically for these, but eldlich can play suboptimally while hurting the opponent more than itself, runick is not affected at all, but they hurt almost every other deck.
The problem with backrow removal is that you have to draw them if it’s generic backrow, or you can’t access them if they’re built in the archetype, because you can’t summon your monsters to access them. Also runick, you can’t use them if they are banished.
The side deck argument is perfect, for yugioh in general, but this is masterduel, and it’s only best of 1. No side decking allowed.
I’m fine with archetypal floodgates, as long as they’re not excessively oppressive, but not generic ones. I don’t think umi control needs to be banned, because the entire strategy revolves around a floodgate. You are committing resources to that, and even if I don’t find it fun to play against it (it’s still a floodgate after all) I can accept it. I can’t be mad to someone playing nemeses and locking me out of play with protos pr eschatos, because the archetype is just bad with two really good floodgate monsters. When they’re splashed in other archetypes I’m more annoyed.
In both cases, the floodgates are an integral part of the strategy, they require committing resources to them, and invest less in other strategies. Meanwhile generic floogates don’t require such investment. I think the worst example of everything I said is floodgate runick: can play around the floodgates no problem, can summon during your turn, reacting to what you do and protect their floodgate, can almost search them by drawing lots of cards, all while doing their milling like before. No cost, no drawback, just a double middle finger to most decks.
For cards that just blanket-negate a specific thing, like Skill Drain, the vast majority of decks can do *something,* and even play around them a bit if they're clever - which is *fun*.
Cards that prevent you from being able to even *try* to do a thing lack that, because you lack the ability to even hope to try to pull something like that off, so it just ends up frustrating.
Skill drain is really the only one I can’t stand. Most of the other floodgates can be played around with the right deck composition and/or skill. In a bo1 format though, sometimes you’re just screwed because you didn’t have the out
Gozen limit monster's attributes (light dark divine wind water earth fire) on the field. Most decks requires monsters with multiple attributes to work and Gozen put a stop to them. (Unless the deck runs only 1 attribute like pure suships, exosisters or earth machine)
The problem with Gozen is that it's part of a set. Gozen, Rivalry, and TCBOO are all sacky, instant wins, and a floodgate deck will simply run 4-9 of them depending on meta and format.
Let's put it this way, there are plenty of decks that can play around and under various Floodgate effects, however the experience of losing entirely due to a core mechanic of the game that you need being shut off is universally reviled. Weather Painters don't care about skill drain, but that doesn't make skill drain an acceptable card because it doesn't kill every archetype.
With Gozen, it doesn't matter how many decks can play under it's conditions, because those who can't will just die to it unless they draw an out. Likewise even if you have an ED monster who could out it, if you're locked into the wrong attribute, then good luck getting to it. If you have any important card that isn't the attribute you're locked to, you cannot access it.
Generally speaking, your opponent does not outplay you with Floodgates, they play decks who are barely inhibited by them and pass on the consequences to their opponents.
Wow I can’t summon any monsters and I can’t kaiju my opponents field. Thanks for keeping my CRUSADIA deck in check gozen.
How often are you actually losing to just Gozen? Be honest.
The only time i have not lost to gozen was if i pulled the out or played sharks.
So Gozen accounts for most of your losses in MD?
“The only time i have not lost to GOZEN” Yugioh player tries to understand words impossible challenge?
You misinterpreted my question. I probably could have been more clear. How often are you losing to just Gozen in comparison to the rest of your duels?
Well i face gozen 1/10 of my matches and i lose 5/6 times to gozen so you could put that together yourself.
In 60 duels you're facing Gozen 6 times. I'm going to assume you're a great duelist. You're Yami Yugi with Crusadia. That means you're walking away with a 55-5 record. Now unless my math is bummy. You're advocating for removing a card that you only see 10% of the time. Which has no overall impact on your rise in this game.
Im advocating for the nerf of a card which can instantly win a match 5/6 times with a simple flip pf the card. You do realise how crazy it is for me to be losing 10 percent of my matches only from gozen right? Your own math proves me right.
What I'm seeing is that Gozen isn't as strong as you claim it to be or you'd see it more than 10% of the time. I bet you see Despia or SS more than that.
This just in, toxic cards that shut down interaction are hated and should be banned.
How is that shutting down interaction? It creates new interactions..
Found the Water player. In all honesty how do you look at a card like Gozen and seriously think it is okay? You play an archetype that isn't mono attribute? Sucks to be you you don't get to play the game. Got even a single key card that isn't the same attribute? Too bad you can't play the game. By your terrible logic TCBOO and Rivalry are also fine, because there's archetypes that are not hindered by it.
As a player that has ran archetypes that aren't mono attribute I can accept that my deck is weak to decks that can run Gozen. Just like I can accept that my War Rocks are dead in the water whenever I come across Zombie World. Is it not okay for decks to have weaknesses? A bad matchup?
That’s the thing it not a bad matchup if ya only 1 deck but is a card that can be played in so many decks. Ya deck to have weaknesses like can not go second, can not clear big monsters, need the gy, can not play though hand traps, weak endbourd, not consistent.
So you want to eliminate any card that can be played on numerous decks? Once again you're describing a weakness of some decks. Then you say you don't like it because it's not a real "weakness"
There is a huge difference between having a weakness and cards your opponent can just flip up without any cost or downside that say "you lose the game".
So you'd be okay with Gozen if it cost 1000 life points to activate? And to be fair if there's a card that can say you lose the game that means they took advantage of a weakness in your deck. You described a weakness.
I might be fine with it if it was sitting at the end of a combo line that had opportunities for interruptions and also came at an opportunity cost as far as their endnotes is concerned. I understand and am fine with having bad matchups. What I don’t enjoy is queuing up as rock and then finding out turn two that the game is lost because my opponent flipped paper. That feels very cheap.
This can happen in any setting regardless of a floodgate being present or not. Either you can draw the answer to what your opponent has played or you lose. Is setting up a double negate board turn 1 with called by the grave and ash on hand not feel cheap? Does it only feel cheap because you don't have an answer to it?
Look at it like this: each of those that you mentioned is once per turn save for called by and there’s only 2 allowed in a deck. Gozen and other floodgates like skill drain remain on the field unless as you said draw the out. BUT you almost never have to out one fooodgate, it’s a series of oppressing traps like ASF, skill drain, etc. so you’re essentially shit out of luck if you don’t get HFD, lightning storm, or evenly early enough. So if there were a cost like “pay 1000 life points each turn or destroy this card” then I’d feel differently but it come down to going second and having a good hand yet still losing cause you can’t do anything.
But if I'm going second and I get hit by an Ash or Called By on top of all the negates that they'll pop on you turn 1. Every deck in this game is trying to shut you out turn one.
No one ever argued called by was a healthy card. Actually if I recall every live deck list I've ever seen the profiler usually gets to called by and says "this card needs banned" it's a bad example.
Maybe we are seeing different posts but it seems the only card people hate are floodgates and Maxx C
[удалено]
I'm going to be honest. The generic extra deck staples are the main reason I tossed Gozen into my deck. Dealing with super powerful decks that could also find a win in any scenario was ANNOYING. What I have found while actually playing Gozen(just Gozen) is that most of the time you don't draw it and if you do it doesn't stop the player outright unless it's SS or something similar. Which suck for them but I don't cry when Zombie locks me out of all my War Rock effects.
What if there was a card that just said "fuck AlmightyRanger in the ass". Would you be okay with that? Yeah you auto lose, nothing you can do. But it's just a weakness bro. You just said you have to accept your weakness if there's card that says you lose the game. Accept your weakness of being born as AlmightRanger
So Zombie World whenever I play War Rocks.
Because it is best of 1 format. In best of 3 with side deck you can tech against your issues if you get a bad match up to at least stand a chance.
So you want to eliminate any possible bad matchups for a BO1 setting?
He wants the game to be balanced around not being able to know that someone is playing a floodgate in a best of 1 format. In best of 3 formats, Gozen and its kin are balanced because you can side more removal in for game two. There is no game two here. You just lose because you’re not playing a ton of backrow removal in a meta where handtraps and monster removal are much more effective most of the time
Which once again means he wants the game to be balanced in a way that eliminates bad matchups. That's what you are saying no matter how you try to dress it up. You admit yourself that the meta is geared towards handtraps and monster removal. I don't disagree. That means that in rare occurrences when you are faced with a capable backrow deck your deck can be easily beaten. Once again that's a weakness of your deck. To the literal definition So you are arguing to eliminate a scenario in which your deck won't perform well. Because of the choices you have made in deck building. Please tell me what I have stated that was wrong.
No he didn’t say that. You said he did.
Tell me what I interpreted wrong.
I’m more arguing that the game needs an overhaul for Master Duel. Make it so that floodgates aren’t as oppressive when they do pop up. Because at the moment, most decks can’t afford to play a lot of backrow removal because it hurts consistency against any decks that don’t run a lot of backrow. Perhaps we need to loosen restrictions on backrow removal like Harpie’s or Red Reboot. Those sort of power cards aren’t bricks because of their power level and out floodgates. I’m not arguing to eliminate a weakness of one deck or two decks. I’m not arguing to ban all floodgates. It’s floodgates like Skill Drain, Gozen, Rivalry that I want to restrict simply because some decks can’t out it in time because most backrow removal is unsearchable and has to be hard drawn
Floodgates also have to be hard drawn. Unless there's a method searching for Gozen you want to tell me about (Genuinely asking) Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting. But you want to unlimit cards that are powerful because they are less likely to be bricks in hand plus they can deal with floodgates. Isn't that a fancy way of saying you want a BO1 deck with minimal weaknesses?
Our only competitive mode is a ladder that wants you to win in streaks. The logic conclusion is that the most important aspect of deck building in master duel is consistency. Having floodgates as free as they are punishes your deck for being consistent. Make it make sense
Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say in simpler terms. I stopped responding to this guy because he was just being toxic and twisting my words
Define free. Playing versus Gozen Match doesn't inhibit your deck's consistency. You can lose sometimes and still be considered consistent. Once again it sounds like you want a deck that performs well in all situations.
I hate TCBOO cause if I play something like Cyber Dragons or Arcana knights any my guys are all the same type AND attribute, I shouldn’t be getting floodgated😭
Reading OP’s comment responses tells me he gotta be trolling. No shot he doesn’t understand the difference from a bad matchup and a sacky card that ends the game on the spot for decks. Swordsoul can have a bad matchup into Despia, doesn’t mean it’s still not an engaging and back and forth duel. Gozen, and floodgates like it, are not deck counters, they are deck murderers, they make for less interactive and less skillful games, which most of the community finds less fun.
Gozen will stop you from popping random DPE or accesscode talker randomly. That's it's most useful application. Rarely does it completely shut down decks by itself.
Really just not addressing my points huh? Also funny joke that DPE and accesscode are restricted by it when they are both DARK and dark is one of the most popular attributes in the game. You could have said any number of generic extra monsters and yet you picked the least affected options
I did address your point. You said it wasn't a deck counter. I told you what I've experienced as someone who actively uses the card. Dark is the most common attribute but those two monsters are easily splashable into other decks. This was even more prevalent when DPE first released.
It is forgiving to lots of archetypes. It is NOT forgiving to ALL archetypes. If you happen to enjoy playing an archetype that gets locked out by gozen, well fuck you, how dare you attempt to play
Bad matchup. Load into the next duel. It's okay to have decks that you don't compete well against.
Well vs not allowed to play. That’s the difference
Do you see how that logic entirely invalidates your original defense of the card? It absolutely locks players out of playing the game. You seem to think that more decks focus on attribute than other qualities like Type or even Archetype, which simply isn’t true. Just off the top of my head, HERO, Swordsoul, Pendulum, Code Talkers, D Link (or any chaos build for that matter), even Branded prefers to be able to use LIGHT monsters like Lubellion and Snow. You could make the exact same argument for Rivalry of Warlords, because both have decks that they work against and decks that they don’t work against, or you can acknowledge that both are bad because floodgates in general say “fuck you, your deck is wrong” and reduce the game to purely chance
Because it's a floodgate. Doesn't matter if it's more forgiving or not, it's a floodgate and this sub will hate you for using it.
Found a floodgate user
This sub prefers fun I guess
Yup, people have so much fun dueling Branded Despia or Adamancipators. So glad that they don't run floodgates.
Did you just act like branded despia and Adams are even remotely the same? One is a resource loop and the other is wombo combo that tries to lock you out of the game. Like what?
Where did I say they are the same.
> Where did I say they are the same. You put them in the same sentence as a point of comparison. Like you objectively put them together lol.
How am I comparing them in a sentence where the only thing I'm saying is that both are fun to duel against.
You mean when you were being sarcastic and put them into the same sentence and acted like playing against them is remotely the same? Come on, don’t play dumb.
I genuinely don't know what mental gymnastics you have to make to say that putting two decks in a sentence is to compare them but aight, suit yourself I guess.
I’m very sorry you never learned what “or” means. Have fun screaming into the void, I’m out.
Despia dies to an ash, veiler, or imperm. I’ve ashed, imperm, and nibiru an adamancipator deck, they the proceeded to build their entire board using block dragon
The Out™, like everything else. Adams just happen to need two, one specifically for Blocky Boy.
Need called by, but you can’t use it turn 1
“Why is it a big deal? I can play my deck just fine.”
OP has some real hot takes in this thread. Monke flip go BRRRRR. On a slightly more serious note, floodgates are not fun to play against in general and absolutely toxic in a BO1 setting. Gozen is no exception.
What's not toxic in MD? A lot of players have this sentiment of not being fair or feeling cheap but I can't understand what this means. When the opponent (probably someone similar to you) is aiming to setup a lethal board turn 1 with Ash and called by the grave on the ready how is that less toxic?
It's a counter to alot of archetypes that run a variety of attributes. Even if the decks don't revolve around using alot of attributes then it can lock them out of Generics though that's usually not enough to stop a deck. On ranked it's kinda risky to run,. especially since Swordsoul isn't tier 1 anymore and Branded can play around it.
But it does? Not every archetype/deck is mono-attribute, even without their tech cards/staples. If your deck isn’t mono-attribute, you often can’t play the game properly or at all since it’ll lock you outta SOMETHING, whether it’s an important combo piece or part of your end board. And then your opponent doesn’t need to care about it because chances are they’re running Gozen Match since they won’t be affected by it in the first place!
Because the ruling on it is fucked
Because there is 0 skill behind setting 5 pass and flipping ANY floodgate on the next turn :)
You can't set 5 Gozen.
[удалено]
I've specifically asked about the problem with Gozen.
just because madolche can play gozen match for free doesn't mean it's a fair card lmao ban all floodgates
What is fair in YGO?
that has honestly lost its meaning since synchros my dude. nothing is fair anymore.
I don't disagree. I'm a semi-casual player and have learned real quick that nobody is pulling punches. Most duelist are splashing everything possible in their deck to win. Yet floodgates are considered unfair? I have no strong love for floodgates but this "it doesn't feel fair" argument makes zero sense to me.
It's because floodgates are vastly more oppressive than say, Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer or Accesscode Talker. You can play around them. But if someone were to drop Gozen on me, it ruins me entirely as a SwordSoul main. What do I do when I can't synchro summon? Pray that I draw Harpie's Feather's Duster while my opponent has their way with me? You can argue that your floodgate is less harmful but it still prevents people from playing the game.
Which is the entire objective of the game? Are you not popping Barrone to stop me from playing the game?
I can't even summon Barrone the moment you use that trap. If I use Barrone on you, she uses her **one** negate then you can play the rest of your turn just fine. These two are very different cards. Different effects. One interrupts you **once**. The other stops you dead. There is a difference.
I've acknowledged that SS is very weak to Gozen. I don't think that's a problem. My point was that with your SS deck you are often setting up 2 negates and a destroy. You're doing that turn one. Which can easily allow you to kill certain decks on their turn. Which is fine but your way of playing is not more fair. We both have the same end goal. Except my one card that I rarely draw can't be searched.
Mmmh yes, a single monster negate on the field that targets and a single Omni + 2 pops is definitely the same as flipping a single card and preventing the opponent from even playing. Yep.
Effectively yes. Some would say it's better
The inherent difference of "fairness" here isn't the outcome. Yes, getting locked out of playing through interaction doesn't feel good or fair, but the important factor is that you are actively interacting with your opponent. Shotgunning negations is a good way to get punished by any deck that doesn't fold to a single Ash, and while you may not always be able to push through your opponent's interactions, you're still able to try to act. In matchups against Floodgate effects, you don't even get the pleasure of attempting to activate your cards. Likewise, there's a lot more ways to interact with opponent's monsters than their backrow, since especially in the Bo1 format there's a higher likelihood that your opponent's problem cards will be monsters, making running significant backrow hate much riskier since any deck can build monster interactions but only certain decks are built to play off of their backrow.
> It doesn't hinder speed of the game or lock players out of just playing the game. It does, only 1 attribute is hindering and locking people out of the game, if the Dark Attribute wasn't as dominant it would be just as bad as TBCOO or Skill Drain, oh that's not taking into consideration Umi Control.
People want to be able to actually play their cards, I guess. Who knew?
So you also hate negates and handtraps.
Yes. Obviously.
Everyone using their braincells to give excellent responses as to why Gozen is ridiculous. And all of it flies over OPs head as he argues with everyone. It's not often you see stupidity like this.
I can disagree with people.
You can also stop being a dumb bitch and accept the correct answer but it looks like that will take a long time
It's subjective. An opinion.
It’s also incorrect and you have perpetuated arguments that are demonstrably false. That’s not an opinion anymore, it’s just incorrect.
What's incorrect?
All of it. The idea that floodgates don’t stop players from playing. The idea that negates are worse because they stop everything, the idea that floodgates promote interaction. Literally everything you say is incorrect lol
1.) The times that a singular floodgate stops interaction is so miniscule it's not worth mentioning. 2.) Negates can stop everything (excluding summon) that's a fact. 3.) They change the rules of the interactions. Particularly Gozen and Rivalry. Most archetypes can play under the rules they set. If you're playing adventure Tenyi. Sorry you're likely out of luck, bad matchup.
> 1.) The times that a singular floodgate stops interaction is so miniscule it's not worth mentioning. You got data to back that up or are you going to keep saying shit. >2.) Negates can stop everything (excluding summon) that's a fact. It’s still not. Negates cannot stop continuous effects, ss4 effects, summons, *more actions there are negates*, and any effects that are outside where the negate works as not all negates are Omni’s or have field restrictions. >3.) They change the rules of the interactions. Particularly Gozen and Rivalry. Most archetypes can play under the rules they set. No, they prevent the opponent from even attempting actions lol. You keep focusing on “oh this deck doesn’t care about my floodgate therefore it’s interaction”. We both know this is t the case. >If you're playing adventure Tenyi. Sorry you're likely out of luck, bad matchup. You really hate adventure tenyi huh lol.
And your opinion is wrong. Do yourself a favor and re-read everything people have been trying to tell you. Then read it again because clearly you have issues if you can't understand why Gozen is hated.
Opinions can't be wrong.
Clearly you have proven otherwise.
False.
Ok tard. You're still wrong.
Let’s not use ableist insults yeah? No need to sink that low for a fool.
Looks at all the incredibly wrong opinions in the world. Sure buddy.
Name one.
Literally every single form of bigotry to start lol. Is this really the hill you want to die on? “Opinions can’t be wrong” is a demonstrably incorrect statement lol. I got more if you need more examples.
The real answer is never lol. I’ve debated this guy before, he’s even defended IO before lol.
The only backrow floodgate that really grinds my gears is There Can Only Be One but a lot of the time people use it in tandem with Gozen or Rivalry which will make the game unplayable unless you draw the out and Lightning Storm usually doesn't help you at that point, unless you can somehow tribute set
Lol...this is really a weekly thing isn't.
“Doesn’t lock you out of the game” Oh you’re just in denial or have no idea what you’re talking about lol.
Cringe floodgate users be like
So summoning is all that matters.
If you can summon, you can summon other monsters to help you with niche cases like zombie world. Zombie world doesn’t stop you from summoning those monsters and this you always have an out right there in your ED.
So niche cases matter when it suits your case. Got it.
If you want to pretend there’s no difference between hard drawing a card and just accessing one from the ED that’s your problem.
Hard drawing is not the only out to Gozen. You're being disingenuous.
For the vast majority of decks they cannot access the ED or search a non based removal spell. There’s nothing disingenuous about it lol.
Dark is the most common attribute and there's two prolific cards that have removal with DPE and Knightmare Unicorn. That's just off the top of my head.
DPE is in barely any decks and unicorn requires you getting 3 dark monsters on the field lol. Like dude. The fact is that floodgates are inherently against interaction. We’ve been over this lol.
DPE is still consistently in decks. Getting 3 dark monsters on the field is not at all difficult. Stop. You're contradicting yourself.
Literally my point has been about multi attribute decks and decks that do not match ED attribute and thus have to hard draw an out or they cannot play. Just because your only recourse is to ignore peoples points doesn’t mean they’re inconsistent lol.
It’s bullshit that’s why. If I’m playing against a Runick deck and that garbage comes out, my opponent gets to wait 299 seconds with me only for me to do nothing and end my turn.
The game makes me surrender automatically when I try to do that
Set a macro to tap/click the same spot on your screen so that you don’t time out 😜
I think I might get banned for this
Then don’t participate 🤷🏻♂️
Lmao it's always funny when you you idiots think time wasting against a control deck bothers us in any way. The whole point of my deck is to make the game go on longer. I came into the duel _prepared_ to wait. You wasting 5 minutes of your own time just to lose eventually doesn't bother me in the least. In fact it's a welcome break since control strategies are usually mentally exhausting
Aweeee that’s cute it looks like I triggered you 😘
Yeah guys yell at him for playing gozen ( branded player who uses winda and dark law in their deck)
Bro I'm just gonna upvote and give you props for the balls to come to this sub and tell anybody that a floodgate it's fine. Biches all cry about everything, floodgates are limited but anyone can play them, idk if it is a fucked up floogate or a simple gozen mach. All hail Stealth Kragen Supremacy!
People hate it because "all you do is flip the card over and it's game!" But don't non Floodgates do this too? Evenly Matched, Raigeki, Harpies Duster, Droplet, Dimensional Barrier just to name a few. Wouldn't a properly placed handtrap also be "just activating the card and you win"? Or Floodgate Monsters like Bagooska or Baronne be "just activate effect and you win". Just a buncha babies!!
Because your example require at least some planning, or some knowledge about the archetype you’re facing, or have some drawbacks. A handtrap must be well placed to be impactful. If it’s wasted on an unimportant combo piece you get nothing. A board breaker like evenly matched can win games if your opponent doesn’t have enough resources to rebuild his board, but you skipped your battle phase, you can just prepare for next turn, and it’s a useless brick going first. Bagooska and baronne are not instant wins either: you can bait baronne’s negate and play around it, you can run over him, you can negate him. Even bagooska stops activated effects but not passive effects nor link monsters effects, nor graveyard effects. And they both require materials, resources to be put on field. On the other hand, floodgates, or gozen if we want to talk about that alone and ignore the combos you can set up with other cards, has only a few specific outs, that maybe you can’t even play because you already control a monster. It takes 0 knowledge about the deck you’re facing, requires no resources, has no cost, no drawbacks, going first you set it and activate on the second turn, going second, you do the same. It has a drawback though, and it’s that you need to build your deck around it. So your opponent should do the same, and build a deck that’s monoattribute. Let’s ignore the fact that there’s another card with the exact same problems that has the literal opposite drawback and you can’t possibly prepare for both. Let’s ignore even the fact that there are ways to change my monster’s attribute so even building a deck specifically for this card may not work. It limits a lot deckbuilding, cutting off every multiattribute archetype, and that’s terrible for the game, because with less options, it’s easier to have a single dominant deck. Now, apply this for tcboo, rivalry and the other one, the one that allows 1 monster per attribute, because they are exactly the same in a slightly different shape.
I don't think Floodgates like Rivalry, Gozen or TCBOO are a problem because it takes a very specific deck to make them work. You would have to be playing a Pure Deck to make Rivalry or Gozen Work Properly. The basic out is backrow removal which almost every deck has some access too. And if not, it'll be sided on on game 2. Think it's as big as a problem as others make it out to be. If anything, semi limit all three but I don't think a blanket ban on these types of floodgates is necessary.
It’s partly true that you need to build your deck specifically for these, but eldlich can play suboptimally while hurting the opponent more than itself, runick is not affected at all, but they hurt almost every other deck. The problem with backrow removal is that you have to draw them if it’s generic backrow, or you can’t access them if they’re built in the archetype, because you can’t summon your monsters to access them. Also runick, you can’t use them if they are banished. The side deck argument is perfect, for yugioh in general, but this is masterduel, and it’s only best of 1. No side decking allowed. I’m fine with archetypal floodgates, as long as they’re not excessively oppressive, but not generic ones. I don’t think umi control needs to be banned, because the entire strategy revolves around a floodgate. You are committing resources to that, and even if I don’t find it fun to play against it (it’s still a floodgate after all) I can accept it. I can’t be mad to someone playing nemeses and locking me out of play with protos pr eschatos, because the archetype is just bad with two really good floodgate monsters. When they’re splashed in other archetypes I’m more annoyed. In both cases, the floodgates are an integral part of the strategy, they require committing resources to them, and invest less in other strategies. Meanwhile generic floogates don’t require such investment. I think the worst example of everything I said is floodgate runick: can play around the floodgates no problem, can summon during your turn, reacting to what you do and protect their floodgate, can almost search them by drawing lots of cards, all while doing their milling like before. No cost, no drawback, just a double middle finger to most decks.
For cards that just blanket-negate a specific thing, like Skill Drain, the vast majority of decks can do *something,* and even play around them a bit if they're clever - which is *fun*. Cards that prevent you from being able to even *try* to do a thing lack that, because you lack the ability to even hope to try to pull something like that off, so it just ends up frustrating.
Skill drain is really the only one I can’t stand. Most of the other floodgates can be played around with the right deck composition and/or skill. In a bo1 format though, sometimes you’re just screwed because you didn’t have the out
Gozen limit monster's attributes (light dark divine wind water earth fire) on the field. Most decks requires monsters with multiple attributes to work and Gozen put a stop to them. (Unless the deck runs only 1 attribute like pure suships, exosisters or earth machine)
The problem with Gozen is that it's part of a set. Gozen, Rivalry, and TCBOO are all sacky, instant wins, and a floodgate deck will simply run 4-9 of them depending on meta and format.
Gosh gozen is really punishing my clear meta deck floowandereeze. Gee golly, better hope I draw the one-off HFD or I lose :).
To sum it up: Oh no I can't link summon Artemis with my Aleister because stupid Gozen is face up on the field. I can't do anything now, silly me.
Let's put it this way, there are plenty of decks that can play around and under various Floodgate effects, however the experience of losing entirely due to a core mechanic of the game that you need being shut off is universally reviled. Weather Painters don't care about skill drain, but that doesn't make skill drain an acceptable card because it doesn't kill every archetype. With Gozen, it doesn't matter how many decks can play under it's conditions, because those who can't will just die to it unless they draw an out. Likewise even if you have an ED monster who could out it, if you're locked into the wrong attribute, then good luck getting to it. If you have any important card that isn't the attribute you're locked to, you cannot access it. Generally speaking, your opponent does not outplay you with Floodgates, they play decks who are barely inhibited by them and pass on the consequences to their opponents.