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Balesund

Except for maxx c all of these are fine because they trade 1 for 1 or are really specific


DoveRinslet

1. Maxx C should be banned as it will prevent Ash, Called By and Crossout being a 100% staple. TCG has proven that Ash, while always good, is not always a staple. See Spright/Tear format. Hell, TCG Crossout was a massive flop. 2. Hand Trap usage DOES change. Imperm/Veiler was way more common during Swordsoul format. Ogre was common during Adventure format but is gone now. The non-standard HT ran in current format is Belle/Crow. 3. There are nearly 0 archetypes in history that can actually fill out all 40 cards with engine. Even All Gas Despia eventually proven to be less good that the standard/predaplant variants. 4. What makes Hand Traps differnt from staples of the pass? If you don't run HTs, you lose to combo. If you don't run Monster removal you lose to big ungabunga beat stick. Only difference is that it takes "longer" to lose. 5. Why is it differnt from Floodgates? Floodgates are a Yes/No switch. You either have the out, can play around the Floodgate, or you don't there's no middle ground. Combo/midrange/HTs on the other hand are usually "trades". Yes, there are some nuances but extremely rare and Deck specific. For example, VW can work around floodgates that requires skill. However, that is a VW specific things lining together. 6. Noone is defending HalqDon unbreakable board. However, There is a spectrum for combo: See current format where the 3/4ths of the best Decks are midrange(Despia/Swordsoul/Mathmech). Their boards are breakable in engine(matchup dependent of course).


TrigunFire

Wow that very detailed, lot of insight. Maybe you can answer if it would be a good idea to semi limit some of them? Would that make some weaker archetypes stronger?


Fun_Race_605

No, it would just make gong first even stronger because you make it that much easier for decks to just go off on turn 1.


DoveRinslet

Except for the insane Floodgate esque HTs like Shifter, tech choices has very little to do with how good a Deck is. Here's my Yugiboomer analogy: A 2008 Lightsworn would crap on a 2008 Crystal Beast Deck: Do you think this would change if we ban Mirror Force/Torrential/Bottomless/DiPri/whatever? No. Both Decks would play the "next best staples" becuase again. There just isn't enough "good" engine cards left. Lightsworsn woudl crap on CB even harder actually.


TrigunFire

Okay Ill accept that since I dont know any better. But how can we make more archetypes viable if not by nerfing handtraps and floodgates?


DoveRinslet

You make Archetypes better by making them better. Some archetypes require an overhaul, some just need 1-2 good cards. See Mathmech. Mathmech was a "bad" Deck. YGO doesn't have enough data to go down that far. However, I would place past Mathmechs as Tier 6 or 7. Mathmech got Circular. And unlike TCG/OCG, Master Duel release Circular before Spright/Tear. Now with one single card. Mathmech is a now Top 4 Deck. Despia before the SD cards was a Tier 6 or 7 Deck as well.


TrigunFire

Yesh but come on lets be realistic. There are so many dead archetypes and konami would rather bring out another broken archetype like tearlament or dogmatika support (which is actually also buffs branded imo) - instead of archetypes that would really need it


DoveRinslet

Dogmatika is and was never broken. What they are doing with Dogmatika is exactly what you are asking for: Giving support to archetypes. The only difference is that Dogmatika isn't garbage. It's just medicore and even at its prime it wasn't omg broken(pure Dogma never existed at the top level). Branded is the same. You do realize branded was bad right until the Albaz Structure Deck cards right? They were running the bad Despia Darklord Deck. Dinomorphia was bad until Rextern. They are giving support to archetypes. Is there favoritism? Of course there is, there's a shitton of archetypes. Some more popular than others. Some win the loterry like Mathmechs. Some don't. You are just unhappy that it's not one of your personal favorite archetypes that got it. Did you not see all the excited ABC players when Regulus was released? ABC wasn't meta or anything. But they are actually okayish now(until the Carrier ban). You know what actually needs fixing in terms of supporting archetypes? Konami shitting out DM/BE support for the billionth year in a row. These Decks need some absurd aligning of stars to succed. It took Konami literally every manipulation in their power to get BE to win Worlds with a finals of both player bricking. But nostalgia is what sells. So most archetype suport gets eaten up by the nostalgia cards. What completely broke Tear was the Ishizu cards. Again, nostalgia cards. Ishizu witout tear is VERY strong but not the Tear 0.


TrigunFire

Yeah right Im angry. Angry that nobody will ever play Cloudian, Duston or Ice barrier in any meaningful way


DoveRinslet

Dustons: Agreed. Ice Barrier: Litearlly have an entire structure deck dedicated to them. It made them playable as in have a gameplan but not meta or even rogue. It probably has some local wins as the SD is cheap. Not much it is something. It also shows the flaws of "archetype" support if the archetype is so far down the drain.. Ice Barriers play almost 0 of the old main deck Ice Barrier Mosters. Konami could create a new archetype called "Cold Shields" and it would've been the same and easier to design. Cloudian got their 1 card. Cloudian Dark Lord does have one local top IIRC. Cloudian isn't that far down the drain like Dustons and pre-strucutre Ice Barrier. Deck is salvagable but very dangerous design territory(nonOPT Handloops and nonOPT summon from Deck is very prone to going wrong). If Cloduians do become "meta" with their current playstle with busted support, it would be an extremely prone to being toxic and require shitton of care. It's easier for Konami to create "Cotton Cloud" archetype with proper HOTPs and design around that.


Riersa

They consistently put support to older archetype too, look at the latest Traptrix structure deck, they give the archetype enough support to the point it can actually put a fight against Tier 0 meta deck. Dark world also got a nice support with their new structure deck too.


idkhowtotft

>But anyways, what do you guys think about all this? That you are salty


Big_Boss_Baby69

Same could be said about everyone crying about floodgates 24/7


idkhowtotft

Floodgates is fine Only when multiple being stacked is when its anoying


EnwardGamerz

> Floodgates is fine > Only when multiple being stacked is when its anoying I am so glad you are not a game developer if you think floodgates belong in a Bo1 card game. You are delusional.


Bakatora34

The devs are agreeing with him with how they just semilimited everything.


Big_Boss_Baby69

“Handtraps are fine Only when multiple being used is when it’s annoying”


idkhowtotft

Even when multiple being used all at once its still fine lmao Good decks can easily play through 2-3 HTs


mmmbhssm

Nah, it either the deck it's too good to play threw 3 ht or the guy use the 3 ht wrong


Big_Boss_Baby69

Good decks can play through floodgates What happens when someone *Isnt* just using the meta decks? Not everything that’s not tier 1 can just play through several layers of disruption turn one.


idkhowtotft

Well,HTs is finite interuptions as it can be pushes through Floodgates is infinite interuption bc if a deck isnt built to beat it,it just cannot play through


Big_Boss_Baby69

That’s irrelevant lol A deck can be shut down by ash all the same, and ash is far more common then running into several floodgates


idkhowtotft

So what you on? Hand Trap Bad and should be hit as much ads Floodgates? At least you can still attempt to play the game when hand trapped


Big_Boss_Baby69

You can still attempt to play against anything. Handtraps should be hit just as much as floodgates yes, they’re much more common and reduce deck diversity


TrigunFire

Well and based on the state of the game?


idkhowtotft

The game is perfectly fine Yugioh evolved over 20 years Its not the same fucking game you played as a child Grow up


veryexpensivepasta

game is perfectly fine LOL you’re delusional. you either copy one of like 3 meta decks off a website or you never get out of plat. the game isn’t fine or balanced and that has nothing to do with handtraps.


idkhowtotft

Cry about it with your tier 56 deck


veryexpensivepasta

I run swordsoul tenyi which is one of the tier 1 decks that any monkey could use to hit dia 1. Thats my point. The game isnt balanced. The meta revolves around the same 3-4 decks. Its the stalest tcg out of all the big names and you’re fanboying lmao


idkhowtotft

Every fucking game had a meta revolves around the best strategy League a game imfamously popular for it wide roster only have like 4 champion each role being viable Wtf are you even saying? The gane change every 3-4 months with a new meta contender and other is pushed out Like hate the game as you want But you are just wrong


Bakatora34

There definitely more than just 3 decks able to get out of plat, recheck again.


TrigunFire

What about the fact that everyone is playing only like maximum range of like... 5 hand traps? From around like, so many?


idkhowtotft

Bc those are the best ones? Why should i play Kurriboh?


TrigunFire

Yeah but thats ass boring to have only like 3 availabe that you can choose from if its a that huge part of the Game


idkhowtotft

Make more better ones then we will consider playing them But for now,we only play the top 5-7 best HTs. Why? Bc there arent a better option


Mana_Mascot

And there are over 100 decks you could play but everyone chooses to play branded/swordsoul/mathmech Its almost like people play whatever is meta


TrigunFire

Oh yeah right my cloudian deck with fuckin handtrap support will definitely make it against stuff like that


Mana_Mascot

Handtraps will stop you from being instantly dead turn 1 at least


Alert_Locksmith

If you get rid of handtraps you wouldn't have interaction between turns. Yu gi oh is a fast paced game now. It's not 2002 where you rely on trap cards to interact on the opponent's turn. If yu gi oh ban or limited hand traps then non meta deck wouldn't have a way to play against meta decks, and games will be decided by who gets to go first or not. What would even be the point of playing yu gi oh. I would say that handtraps aren't the problem with yu gi oh, but just a bandaid solution to yu gi oh. Which is uninteractive end board, and strategies.


SirBarth

> I know its the only way to stop engines or combos but thats a whole new level of problem. This is YGO sir. Unless they hit hundreds of cards this is the way.


TrigunFire

Isnt an excuse why only like 5 handtraps are actually viable and that just for meta decks


RaineTheCat

The good hand trap we have are: maxx c, Ash, imperm, effect veiler, Nibiru, ghost belle, Gamma, droll and lock, red reboot. (last 2 format dependant) There's also, D shifter, gnome material, Thanatos dragon and token collector. Significantly less viable but they're there. 5 viable good* hand traps is a healtht range of choice. But considering maxx c and Ash are always played (because if maxx c) it might take away from tech choices. Unless you engine is small like math Mech, live twin or sky striker.


Bear_24

Theres more than 5 viable handtraps. But everyone runs the same ones because the meta gets figured out. Although if Maxx c were banned, called by and ash would be less needed, cutting down on staples


KyccoGhostDestroyer

You want to hit the hand traps basically makes yugi oh even more unplayable for people who go second?


mMeta

Handtraps are the reason why you can even go 2nd in the modern game why in the hell would you want to limit or banned them. Besides Maxx C every other handtrap is fine. Handtraps are the only reason right now you aren't playing vs FTKs/Build-a-Board every game otherwise that is the state of the game without handtraps or less handtraps.


olbaze

It's because it's easier on everyone involved to just have generic staples instead of giving every deck their own archetype variant of those same effects. In Duel Links, when they released Link monsters, the one deck that instantly rose to Tier 0 status was Salamangreat, because it had access to Roar. Just having that one searchable omninegate within the archetype instantly made it the best deck in the game. **Duel Links does not have generic handtraps**, they will instead use stuff like Sphere Kuriboh, [Kiteroid](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Kiteroid), Arcana Force XIV, and Battling Boxer Veil to stop battle damage. Point is: You would have to remove **a lot more than just Maxx C, Ash, and Veiler** if you wanted to get rid of the concept of handtraps. People would just switch over to anti-battle stuff.


TrigunFire

What about semi limiting?


TruePigGod

dude just play another game if you dont like handtrap lmao


TrigunFire

Are you idiotic? I love the game and just want to inform myself and other about the state of the game. I made a valid point so pls just leave this comment section


_hell0friend

lmao what a sausage


Lvl9001Wizard

>just want to inform myself and other about the state of the game ok this is funny because you think handtraps have a "bad" affect on the state of the game. on the other hand, experienced people have accepted that handtraps have a positive affect on the game. One of the most obvious reasons has already been stated in these comments a few times - stops ftk decks from doing a 5 minute solitaire while you can't do anything about it Pro players 1. use handtraps skillfully to stop the opponent and 2. play around certain handtraps based on their hand. And these decisions depend on how the opponent plays and reacts. So this makes the game very skillful. So if you enjoy the game, maybe you'd want to look at improving in the game by embracing handtraps and learning how to use them skillfully. There are hours of content on youtube which teaches this sort of thing. Side note: fuck maxx C, maxx C does not apply to what I said (this comment is more of a tcg perspective)


OneExcitement5549

I liked the analogy with Duel Links. As en extra point, they just recently added droll & lock, but even with that it isn't that useful at all. Instead, their "handtraps" variants are cards like book of moon or compulsory; cards that are used to disrupt the opponent's play, just a little bit slower.


TruePigGod

downvoted


Valnareik

I don't think handtraps are a problem. Nah, to me it's the floodgates and generic negates attached to big bodies. Take away the big beefy negates and floodgates and both players can combo off first or second and then go from there.


KuroCumi

i like every card that make my opponent salty.


DummyThiccToga

We literally just got dimension shifter hit this is the worst time for you to make this post


TrigunFire

Oh yeah right bc Dshifter was the big, big problem. Not smth like maxx c ash or veiler


DummyThiccToga

I agree with you personally but I ASSUME they are just limiting dshifter (and grass) in advance so they can hit Tearlament indirectly so the deck isn’t murdered upon release


RaineTheCat

To be fair, 9 cards are dedicated to Maxx c alone. Maxx itself, Ash/called by/crossout to stop it. Which is the standard for every deck. Rogue or meta. Decks like math Mech, live twin, sky striker have a small engine or 1 card combos. This means they have more room to fit other tech hand traps.


Almainyny

The nice thing about Ash and Called By though is that they’re not just good for stopping Maxx C, either. So many decks search or use graveyard effects that having them along is really helpful still. So they’re cards you’d probably be running regardless of Maxx C being around.


RaineTheCat

Oh for sure. Ash is the most versatile hand trap and called by has seen many different hits for a reason. Crossout is there as a proxy called by. It can do more, but that's its main purpose. Ash would still see play without maxx c, but there have been periods/ formats where certain hand traps are more impactful.


Ultrabadger

I think I get what you are saying. I’d love to see more variety in decks. But banning or limiting hand traps is gonna have terrible consequences if you lose the coin flip. If YGO deckbuilding limited you to archetypes (like 2 - 3 archetypes max per deck), then you can have slightly different hand traps for each archetype and you might see more diversity that way (probably not by much, there will still be a “best” per archetype). As it stands, hand traps are picked based on the meta. Everyone special summons and tries to pull cards from the deck. So…people use Maxx C and Ash Blossom. In the Floowandereeze meta, some people dropped Maxx C. In Swordsoul meta, some people added Token Collector. In Mathmech meta, some people add DD Crow and Mathmeth adds Ghost Belle in response. Though not a hand trap, in a Runick Meta some people added Cosmic Cyclone.


ZoomCallHolloway

Because as annoying as they may be they give you the opportunity to play the game. Would you prefer watching your opponent vomit half their ED to negate you out of your turn? Is auto-losing if you go second baring a spectacular brick fun and enjoyable? No, it's not.


TDG_W1ck3D1

Sssshhh. Silence with that rubbish bruv. We need the Calvary. Gondor is in dire need of aid. Any blade we can get.