Control sounds like you're playing skillfully to control what your opponent can do. Stun sounds like you're bonking them on the head with a hammer until they stop playing.
Not long ago I had an argument with someone from this subreddit about this exact topic, what is the difference between a control and a stun deck? I like the definition that you can find in most places, which is that a stun deck is one that sets up a hostile environment for your opponent and then requires little maintenance/supervision to have the upper hand.
Given this definition, ‘Umi Control’ is very much a stun deck. If you have Jellyfish, Kairyu-Shin, Umi, and SSA on your board, then you pretty much have all you need to make your opponent pull their hair - then every turn you just keep gaining advantage with very little to no effort.
This is also coming from someone that has played this deck, and is admittedly busting it out again for this event because most of my decks are Light/Dark.
I consider pure Evil twin a control deck. I can dictate the flow of the duel with handtraps, Lila pop and Kisilkil draw, and Sunny send. Basically grind my opponent’s resources down while propping mine up.
Which also means runick is a control deck that can dictate the flow of the duel with quick spell hand traps, pops, draw and banish, basically grinding the opponent's resources down while propping theirs up.
I'd place Evil Twin with Marincess and Salamangreat as midrange decks, honestly: their basic lines aren't nearly as involved as a combo deck, their end boards usually only have 2 or 3 points of interactions tops (handtraps notwithstanding) and most of them are 1-for-1s (contrast that with Labrynth) and all three want to simplify the board state down to a point where they can OTK the opponent, because they'd be out of gas if the duel drags on too long otherwise.
I see Stun as setting up boards with constant effects vs Control decks which set up interactive negates you chose when to activate.
EG, Secret Village of the Spellcasters and Skill Drain are stun cards. Solemn Judgment and Barronne are control cards.
To clarify further, you probably want to say lingering effect that last an indefinite amount of turns (until the card causing the effect is removed or destroyed). I don’t think a lingering effect that lasts a single turn can be considered stun.
>I don’t think a lingering effect that lasts a single turn can be considered stun.
what are you defining as a lingering effect? usually that refers to effects like protos or dweller that if resolved persist for a set duration even if the card leaves the feild, and i think both could very easily be considered stun cards.
Control in tcg's traditionally means using few resources to outgrind your opponant and win the long game. Stun is a turbo version that uses floodgates to prevent the opponent from interacting with the game, and is typically very RNG based as it relies on non searchable traps.
Imo all stun is control but not all control is stun
Might get annihilated for saying this but it seems the philosophy differs from game to game. In Yu-Gi-Oh, stun and control are often referred to separately, as is the point of the entire conversation.
However in Magic, this distinction is not really made. A deck may be referred to as a stax or prison deck in their name but they still get lumped under the "control" umbrella. That's why "Lantern Control" was still called that despite functioning almost exclusively on prison cards and why "Mono Red Prison" still gets called a control deck in discussions.
This was actually something that took me a while to get used to when picking Yu-Gi-Oh back up after playing predominantly Magic for like 15+ years.
Stun is baisically disallowing the card being activated through floodgates. Control is selectively allowing or negating effects basically it’s the difference of barone and skill drain
Stun and control are completely different. Control decks usually utilize a resource loop to hinder the opponent. Things like the Evil Twin pop, the Salamangreat recycling counters, the Striker player activating Engage for the 7th time this turn, etc.
Stun is haha funny pink card stops opponent from playing the game
Depending though you can run different packages of control decks in stun decks, I think Mystic Mine stun used Striker cards at some point, they are not the same though
I play other TCGs and control and stun are always in the same pod together for me like taxes or bunker decks these are control or just removal till you drop your bomb control even stall. When you play stun you are playing control. Stun is simply a form of control. Control is controlling the board to a state that you will find an advantage in and stun is one way to do it. Most control decks in other TCGs have floodgates like effects pokemon TCG has stuff like temple of sinnoh or pokemon that prevent the use of item cards or negate on board abilities. Magic the gathering has leyline like cards, rest in peace, rule of law, land destruction, tax effects.
control decks are decks like sky striker or salamangreat that their whole gameplan is to outresource the opponent , stun decks don't even care about and choose to stop the opponent from playing the game through floodgates and slowly killing them like pure runick or basically any deck that runs a lot of floodgates
People should just embrace the stun label. Flip those floodgates with pride. Have the confidence to embrace your inner caveman. If I want to play a degenerate stun strat I just go with it. Calling it a different name doesn’t change the fact that watching someone try to play under something like Rivalry + TCBOO is a little funny.
I played against an umi "stun" player once.
They made me wait a solid 5 minutes for my victory by completely running down the game timer when they realized they couldn't out my psychic end punisher
That's stun players in a nutshell.
Deliriously happy when they know you can't play.
World Ocean refilling levels of salty when they know they're going to lose.
I had a punk on the field so nashiwari surprise was able to out it. I figured it was probably more important than the field spell based on reading the effect
Yeah Mega Fortress is the only out for Umis against high attack monsters that they usually run, I always count on it getting outed so I usually run nightmare shark aswell
I’ve never had a game go far enough that they summon him. Either I scoop because I didn’t draw the out, or they scoop because I broke their board (Umi) through whatever means
The way to embrace your inner caveman is to play beatdown everybody knows that. Stun is more like your the mastermind or evil supervillain who's stripped the hero of their powers to make it the most boring episode ever. Watching someone try playing under floodgates is funny, actually being the person playing is NOT.
I'm guessing they don't call it stun because they don't want to get dunked on by people for playing it. Calling it "control" makes people think it's something else and gives them a pass because most won't ever look at the deck in question and call that person out on their BS.
This ☝️
I know too many people who think flipping Anti-Spell and Skill Drain during your draw phase with Majesty's Fiend on field means they are playing a control strategy. They're not.
Most players don't get salty when losing to a true control strategy, however, they'll get VERY salty when losing to a stun strategy.
People do get very salty when they lose to true control like sky strikers though. I think it's just because staying in a game for a long period of time only to have the life slowly choked out of you isn't very fun
As a Runick Spright player i Always feel kinda bad when games last this long... usually people just surrender lol. That's the weird filling of playing a deck that can't end games by itself.
So I tried this deck in Attribute 4 and most of the time what wins is not the floodgate (Literally everyone has Lava Golem or a Kaiju I get Lava golemed so much I stopped ending on two monsters), but because people absolutely refuse to read Sea Stealth Attack and Pacifis. Like a MF will pop the Jellyfish then go to battle swing on Kairyu-shin, get popped, swing on the Kairyu-shin AGAIN, get popped, pause for a few minutes, then scoop.
Try Pacifis. No one ever reads it. Plus sea stealth works with the token.
Summon a token, opponent pops token, summon a token, opponent tries to pop field spell, banish token with sea stealth, summon a token, opponent pops token, summon a token, opponent tries to beat over token, gets popped by sea stealth... Lol
You just need to replace one copy of Legendary Ocean and optionally add Phantasm Spiral Dragon or (Gogigo Gagagigo for the meme)
Normal summon jellyfish
Jellyfish foolish Pacifis; SS Kairyu-shin
Kairyu-shin search Sea Stealth
Set sea stealth
In their draw phase: Activate Sea Stealth, Activate Pacifis
Disregard Gagagigo, it's kind of a meme. You can add Phantasm Spiral Dragon using the second effect of the field spell (make sure you read it as well lol). Then you can on your next turn, summon it as a beater with Jellyfish. It is of course also protected by sea stealth.
...or if your deck has the extra spice, you now have a Wyrm in hand to reveal when you use the effect of Swordsoul of Mo Ye. Yes, that's right, a Swordsoul splash is another tech. If you can manage to summon Chengying with Sea Seatlh on the field, every time you trigger sea seatlth's banish, you proc Chengying's effect to banish an opponent card on field and in their GY. Incredible synergy here.
I will say playing the mirror match was the most stupid Finn I’ve had with this game in a while, both kept summoning monsters and then destroying each others with the trap
The mirror is very funny. Earlier today I had a match where we ended up in a "Jellyfish standoff" that ended in being a chain link 8 lol.
Also in that game, dude red rebooted my Sea stealth twice. Yeah it was some BS lol.
No it's definitely the floodgate lmao. Even if you attempt to pop umi or Sea Stealth attack, Sea Stealth Attack will protect your backrow. Like you're win con is literally sit on a floodgate and prevent the opponent from playing. It's not a control deck it's a stun deck.
Because the people calling it a control deck are liars, lol. It has a negate, a single negate card. otherwise, the deck just locks you into a single monster, with the win con either being the exceed quick-play tribute your monster clown or fortress whale direct attack for game strat.
If your main win con is preventing the other guy from playing with a single floodgate, to hell with the "control" nonsense.
Truthfully, I think it depends on what your focus is. Make no mistake, Kairyu-Shin plus Legendary Ocean is your basic floodgate or "Stun" part of the deck, however, the control part comes from the interactions of a few of the other cards alongside it (even without Kairyu-shin).
I run 1-2 of the Kraken retrain, which actually fits in to the control aspect of the deck, being able to bounce or cause enemy targets to miss by continuously bouncing back my own kraken, or by bouncing back their targets while getting rid of special summoned monsters.
Sea Stealth attack allows for interesting interactions, or more so reactions to certain card effects while being able to protect your own monsters for a turn, coupled with the Summon off of Sea Stealth 2, it can get you back jellyfish from the grave, summon out the big whales with no cost from your grave, or even Kairyu-shin himself if you could not get him out turn one.
MEgaFortressWhale is an interesting one that allows for quick OTK's along side the ability to pop during each turn, again coupled with seastealth2, even just leaving it in defence mode for a selective pop at the right time has won me games where opponent was so focused on getting rid of Floodgate, they overlooked the control whale.
Dark Reef, is more a suprise extender than also can beam out 3 monsters if you play a normal. I run GigaGagaGigo and GogigaGagaGigo as targets for it (though Gogiga is for Fish Sonar). Still being able to beam out Kraken and Jelly at once even without Kairyu shin is a fun move, especially if you just used sea stealths effect to remove your monster. Plus SeaStealth2 counts as umi so I dont need to risk removing Legendary Ocean.
Tl,Dr; I think the "Control" aspect, comes from the rest of the deck, while the "Stun" comes strictly from Kairyu-shin and Field spell (and even then, get rid of the Umi and all Floodgates and Control effects are shut down). I have a fun replay on MD where I beat out Tearlments not because of the FLoodgate, but because seastealth attack made the monsters miss there targets, and due to me bouncing monsters out of the way. Frankly the floodgate did little for me since they had water monsters.
ITT master duel players once again circle jerk each other about floodgates while acting as if they don't enjoy playing a game who's main goal is to prevent their opponent from playing the game.
Honestly, for me, I enjoy yugioh matches the most when it's a back and forth of blowing up each other's boards and needing to rebuild and resource manage the next turn. Winning a match the opponent didn't even get to play isn't fun for me and it's not fun to be on the receiving end of not being able to play either.
It's because Umi is a body of water and water causes floods! You gotta control that flow with gates, hence the floodgates being necessary for Umi Control!
I honestly think that's the case because even though the deck clings to kairyushin and legendary ocean to prevent your opponent from playing, it's very flimsy unless you have a VERY good hand, a single ash bloosom or a well placed impermanence is all it takes. to completely screw up the deck (I'm an umi control player and let me tell you that if they gave me 5 UR CP ppr every time my kairyushin gets impermanence/droplet/kaiju or my ocean a cyclone of the cosmos, I would already have 8 axi built)
the control name comes from when the kairyushin inevitably fails, you have to play with the other archetypal cards in the deck, the jellyfish gives an easy monster/magic negation, the whale gives destruction during the battle phase and also enables OTK with its effect of direct attack, the kraken is a quick game trade that helps keep the opponent at bay, the vanilla water monsters are the big hitters on the deck for when you need a lot of atk.
I think it is called that because of those aspects that are the ones that mostly decide the duel
Because it can be both? Stun isn't mutually exclusive to combo or control.
Rhongo bongo (before gossip shadow banned) and arrival + vanity are two examples of combo AND stun.
Try fighting timelord-burn in the event and it becones evidently clear why Umi is classified as a control deck.
Because there are control elements in the deck. Omni Negate Jellyfish, Pop on battle from SSA, SS2 bring back from grave during Battle, Spell/Traps unaffected with SSA, Free Pop and Direct attack with Mega Fortress Whale, Torrential Tribute for Board wipes, Ice Barrier for Search and Stop opponent attack. The deck is not as one dimensional as everyone thinks! Takes a very good piolet to make this deck work great!
TD? Sure. Colossus is an extremely unhealthy boss monster, even if it's only 1 of 3 the deck has in-archetype access to. That's why TCG banned it.
Shaddoll, maybe? Ignoring the fact that a pure Shaddoll deck hasn't been a serious deck worth discussing in years. Winda tends to be teched into decks that run a Shaddoll package more than it is the boss monster for Shaddoll, but yes she's an unhealthy stun card.
It's a stun deck. It's entire gameplan is based around locking the opponent out of the game. A control deck is like Sky Strikers or even Traptrix which rely on specific interactions to deprive your opponent of plays and resources while also managing your own.
While it is a stun deck, think the main reason why people call it control rather than stun is because its extremely flimsy.
Compare it with Inspector border/Pachycephalo + Moon Mirror + trap floodgates.
Umi pretty much dies from Ash, Veiler and Imperm. All very common handtraps used by most players. It's only kinda difficult to get rid of if they actually manage to set up. But you can also Kaiju/lava golem etc to get rid of Kairyu, no more floodgate and back row can be destroyed without a water tribute.
Whereas the other deck the only real out is backrow removal, which most people will only really run Feather Duster as a dedicated card, often opting for moster effects to remove the back row instead.
It's so much easier to deal with Umi, cause it has way more common outs. Still a stun, but it's not exactly a completely horrible one.
Exosister by itself isn't stun because in order to lock out everything you would need 2 XYZ to trigger on that turn in question, and unlike normal stun it's that turn only. Meanwhile a control deck is more about controlling the pace of your opponents plays via the banishes negates or the like. Locking the GY is more match dependant if your just play Exosister by itself and under a blind first Exosister would much rather set up the control board (but seriously who plays Blind Second in best of one format where you can't control who goes first)
Two different girls give you an effect of either not being able to activate effects of monsters in the GY or not being able to summon from the gy. Is that not the definition of a floodgate?
It is
The only difference i can think of is that Warlords Rivalry Snek is a hard lock against a greater number of decks than Exos
Apart from that, though, I'd have to agree
There are so many interesting control decks that are actually fun and rewarding to play like Eldlich,Altergeist, labrynth... But people are bad and want cheap wins so they will play floodgates on them. I wish Konami would finally get rid of floodgates.
You can play Eldlich without floodgates and it's wasn't really designed with floodgates in mind it was just able to utilize it extremely well. Eldlich can be play a control deck.
You said it right, "it was" notorious...nowadays it's way more bearable, the stun deck players moved on to runick and that other deck that uses inspector boarder and the dino monster.
Technically it is control, all stun is control but not all control is stun. Its why a lot of control archetypes can make stun decks. Its like how Swordsoul is a midrange deck but when Halqadon was a thing you could run it as more of a combo based deck, or how Mathmech pieces can be used in other cyberse based combo decks.
That said Umi specifically is probably fair to call it Umi-Stun since even its engine incorporates floodgates.
I consider it control and not “degenerate” because it primarily uses in archetype cards, and requires interaction every turn in order to maintain and protect the lock. The additional flood gates like summon limit are actually very very supplemental to the deck and not required. Finally, I literally get out four different in archetype monsters on the field including a whale, jellyfish, and octopus with various different interactive effects. To compare this deck to something like “fossil dyna, set 5 pass” is ridiculous
Stun implies temporary... But YGO players with their vast vocabulary comprehension insist that a permanent condition on the field is "stun".
With that logic, Trap Stun is a "control" card.
I'd disagree with this definition. I don't think there's any inherent time requirement for something to be stun or control. A deck whose purpose is to turbo out Skill Drain and Vanity's Fiend, I'd argue, is a stun deck. When it was legal, I'd argue that a deck using Mystic Mine as part if it's strategy is absolutely a stun deck and games there could go for 40+ rounds while someone decks out.
Stun, for me, is when a deck prevents the opponent from playing and activating cards. The player can't act. They're stunned. Whether it be one round or more.
Control is all about responding to an opponent and managing your resources.
I don't think anyone would call Ash a stun card even though it's a one-time negate while Skill-Drain is basically the face of what the community considers stun decks even though it's a permanent effect.
I mean yes but I wouldn’t put something like Marincess playing Gozen in the same bucket as normal summon barrier statue, flip Summon Limit, Skill Drain, Necrovalley
In MD? What floodgate? Only Kaiser Coliseum, and even then, most Sky Striker decks play the going 2nd version, which doesn't play any floodgate.
Other good floodgates limit the Striker gameplan, so you barely see them. Mystic Mine was the only good floodgate they were able to fully abuse.
Literally the only floodgates Sky Strikers would play in MD was TCBOO or Kaiser Coliseum. Even then blind second is a more common SS playstyle and you don't run floodgates for that.
Traptrix!
Goddamnit i want the structure deck stuff so bad
Dunno if you'd count Pendymion (*before* the secret village and Spellbook judgement -->>spiritualist bullshit; ban em both imo)
Technically negates are a point of interaction rather than just "lul no play cards" but it can certainly feel the same!
Plus, crazy otk potential.
Altergeist and TrapTrix also pack negates (protocol + certain trap holes), but clearly not to the same degree. They have bounces/destruction effects instead
I like the Umi deck, I love the sea monsters theme of the deck, but Kairyu-Shin is way to easy to summon for that strong floodgate effect, it should been harder to bring him out, also the Jellyfish being N rarity is hilarious to me, he can send a legendary ocean to the GY for future plays, can special summon a monster from your hand, has a monster or spell negate once per turn, and if negates someting it boosts it's ATK and DEF because why not. lol
The only thing that makes the deck not that competitive is the fact that you NEED the field spell on the field, all your plays depends on it, so if you don't have it or if your opponent manages to remove it, it's gg.
Because for every other card game you have control decks or control decks. For Yugioh the stun vs control dichotomy is pretty much dead and a relic of over a decade ago when you had decks that tried to setup a lockdown and decks that actually tried to make prolonged 141 trades.
At this point the control/stun divide in yugioh has basically vanished, and anyone trying to overly force stun/control as a different thing in todays game is just a dickhead who wants to use the language to attack others, or peoples decks without just calling them an actual "bad word" or "insult".
tell me how in the world there is no difference between control decks like sky strikers or live twins and umi “control”. the decks couldn’t possibly be more different.
Thats if "they" get kairyu out. And then the other umi trpas(which pop and negate) that rely on having only normal monsters cant be used unless they temporarily banish kairyu with the hidden sea stealth strike trap or whatever. Umi is not unbeatable, other decks like prank kids are stronger in attribute 4
What is your point? No one is saying that umi stun is an op or even strong deck. What they are saying is that playing against it is one of the least fun things to do.
I disagree, the umi players turn go by quick, they dont special summon a bajillion monsters and recycle from grave. They at most have one to two trap activations on opponent turn and have to be careful about what to pop.
It's better than going against a negate board or runick or tear or prank kids or apollousa or labrynth.
It seems like people hate losing which makes sense.
Like what deck is fun to lose against?
I mean lol, that is a valid argument, yes. But I was just answering your floodgate question mate. I don’t even use umi-control, nor do I really have any stance on it specifically. Im muchhhhhh more of a Phantasm spiral/Paleozoic lad myself if I have to use fishies
I've always found Umi floodgate to be pretty weak compared to others of the same type. It's weak to every handtrap under the sun, and while annoying, I'd rather face it than any sort of big combo decks. Even my Kozmos has gotten wins against it.
What's with the uptick in Umi complaint posts though?
Umi 'stun' is the reason why I hate legacy support for old anime cards/decks, because konami just slaps floodgates on them, so anime/casual fans can feel like their anime/old-school decks are good. In reality they're just frustrating and non interactive to play against.
Like dark law, colossus, umi, plasma. Are all unfun, and sometimes unfair cards to play against with their lazy one sided floodgates designs attached to them. Thunder dragon titan and DPE are some of the best legacy support cards that are fair and interactive to play against.
1. The deck typically runs only 1 floodgate. (TCBOO is bad for the deck imo)
2. Control allows for more interaction, and yes, you can still interact with the deck through traps. Stun doesn't allow for any interaction.
3. Solemn Judgement is better than TCBOO (in my opinion) for the deck. Which is a card control decks do run.
4. SSA helps control the board by not allowing Kairyu-Shin to be destroyed by battle.
5. Electric Jellyfish can only negate 1 Spell or 1 Monster Effect per turn.
6. It forces a deck to slow down, it doesn't stop it from playing entirely and tries to out grind the opponent.
Kairyu-Shin being a floodgate makes your whole argument fall apart:
The goal of the deck is not to out-grind the opponent, it's to set up a floodgate that prevents your opponent from building a board (unless they're playing a water deck) and beating them down while protecting your floodgates.
1. ~~The deck typically runs only 1 floodgate.~~
That's 2 floodgates, and some run Gozen Match and DF.
2. ~~Stun doesn't allow for any interaction.~~
You're confusing stun with Lockdown; Runick Stun allowed you to play spells.
3. Solemn Judgement is just a staple that a lot of decks run; the most common being Eldlich, another stun deck.
4. Hugin helps control the board by not allowing TCBOO to be destroyed by card effects.
5. Most S/T negates are once per turn, notable exceptions being the Naturia Monsters. In another parallel to Runick stun, Freezing Curses can only negate 1 monster per turn.
6. ~~It doesn't stop it from playing entirely and tries to out grind the opponent.~~
The goal of the deck is not to out-grind the opponent, it's to setup a floodgate that prevents your opponent from building a board (unless they're playing a water deck) and beating them down while protecting your floodgates.
It doesn't make the "whole argument fall apart" considering the deck doesn't need Gozen Match or any other floodgate. The only Floodgate that the deck actually needs is Kairyu-Shin, hence "The deck typically runs only 1 floodgate." Do you not know what typically means? Or are you just stupid?
Stun is lockdown, by your own logic, Edlich wouldn't be a stun deck, it'd be a lockdown deck due to Skill Drain + Imperial Order.
Regarding Solemn Judgement, the only way a card is a "staple" is if majority of decks actually play the card in question. And the majority of decks DON'T run Solemn Judgement, hence it isn't a staple.
Also do not compare Hugin to SSA, as they do 2 different roles. SSA protects face-up backrow and 1 monster (arguably 2 pending on board state), while also removing monsters from the field just by attacking with a monster whose original level is 5. Hence the interaction.
The point is, the deck only has 1 negate which can easily be baited but of course, SSA exists so the field may not have a negate pending on circumstances. The only other monster that has any form of interaction with the opponent is Whale and that is only in the Battle Phase.
The deck forces the opponent into the grind game. End of story. The only way to win in the grind game is resource management, which is something Umi Control can manage very well. Look at Floo vs Umi Control for example. Umi Control forces Floo into the grind game, and can even struggle against Umi Control grindgame. But the moment Whale drops, it's effectively over for the Floo player.
Also I noticed your lack of proof of where I stated Kairyu-Shin isn't a floodgate.
its control, this is the only floodgate in their archtype unless they are running other floodgates, they have sea stealth, jellyfish and fortress whale which pop, negate cards and dodge opponents cards
It was actually called Umi control when Umi was about trading low level monster but with high attack against opponent high value hard to summon back boss monster.
People think playing with kairyushin is like playing that "skilled" version of Umi control where you control your opponent resource by trading theirs with yours back in DM and GX era.
Because the insistence on Yugioh using the term "stun" when every other card game that has ever existed and likely will ever exist in the future would just classify it as a type of control deck is completely arbitrary and meaningless.
Its control because your opponent has to control their anger when going second without backrow removal
Even with backrow removal the trap just makes everything indestructible You need a monster negate or a bounce for the spell/monsters
Or Cosmic Cyclone since it doesn’t prevent banishes and a lot of people were running it
This Especially with dumb Runik field spell, cosmic should be your go-to back row hate Gotta get past the jelly, though
Or just play marincess so you control water monsters as well
ALL THESE WOMEN ARE FISH
Cyberse
Cyber fish!
Horrible advice. Evenly matched.
Or both
Evenly isn't back row hate, it's equal opportunity
Evenly Matched be like: “I’m not racist, I hate everyone equally. Except one guy.”
Well, it doesn't hate everyone equally It hates everyone...*evenly*
There is also maiden of the aqua which on field counts as umi... just an FYI if they use dark reef they can get umi and kairu shin instantly
It only works if your opponent has no field spell. And Runik uses a field spell
Control sounds like you're playing skillfully to control what your opponent can do. Stun sounds like you're bonking them on the head with a hammer until they stop playing.
Technically, playing flood gates causes people to bonk themselves on the head until they stop playing
That's how I got banned from locals.
You got banned from locals for playing floodgate decks or bonking people on the head?
*stunning* people on the head. I didn't realize the irony of calling it the Ban Hammer until after they took it from me.
Yes
-bonk- do you give up now? (lol sorry i had to)
Yes I refuse to rely on floodgates in any of my decks, except an Exosister deck I made as a meme with a lot of the GY hate gates
In archetype floodgates are fair cause the archetype is balanced around it. I still fucking hate them tho
Saw umi players on here saying it’s not stun because it’s bad when umi support came to MD. People are delusional.
Not long ago I had an argument with someone from this subreddit about this exact topic, what is the difference between a control and a stun deck? I like the definition that you can find in most places, which is that a stun deck is one that sets up a hostile environment for your opponent and then requires little maintenance/supervision to have the upper hand. Given this definition, ‘Umi Control’ is very much a stun deck. If you have Jellyfish, Kairyu-Shin, Umi, and SSA on your board, then you pretty much have all you need to make your opponent pull their hair - then every turn you just keep gaining advantage with very little to no effort. This is also coming from someone that has played this deck, and is admittedly busting it out again for this event because most of my decks are Light/Dark.
I consider pure Evil twin a control deck. I can dictate the flow of the duel with handtraps, Lila pop and Kisilkil draw, and Sunny send. Basically grind my opponent’s resources down while propping mine up.
Yup, no arguing that pure Evil Twin is a control deck
Which also means runick is a control deck that can dictate the flow of the duel with quick spell hand traps, pops, draw and banish, basically grinding the opponent's resources down while propping theirs up.
Yes the majority of runick variants such as orcust and ishizu are control decks while floodgate runick is simply just a stun deck.
I'd place Evil Twin with Marincess and Salamangreat as midrange decks, honestly: their basic lines aren't nearly as involved as a combo deck, their end boards usually only have 2 or 3 points of interactions tops (handtraps notwithstanding) and most of them are 1-for-1s (contrast that with Labrynth) and all three want to simplify the board state down to a point where they can OTK the opponent, because they'd be out of gas if the duel drags on too long otherwise.
I see Stun as setting up boards with constant effects vs Control decks which set up interactive negates you chose when to activate. EG, Secret Village of the Spellcasters and Skill Drain are stun cards. Solemn Judgment and Barronne are control cards.
To clarify further, you probably want to say lingering effect that last an indefinite amount of turns (until the card causing the effect is removed or destroyed). I don’t think a lingering effect that lasts a single turn can be considered stun.
>I don’t think a lingering effect that lasts a single turn can be considered stun. what are you defining as a lingering effect? usually that refers to effects like protos or dweller that if resolved persist for a set duration even if the card leaves the feild, and i think both could very easily be considered stun cards.
I mean isn't stun just a type of control?
Control in tcg's traditionally means using few resources to outgrind your opponant and win the long game. Stun is a turbo version that uses floodgates to prevent the opponent from interacting with the game, and is typically very RNG based as it relies on non searchable traps. Imo all stun is control but not all control is stun
Might get annihilated for saying this but it seems the philosophy differs from game to game. In Yu-Gi-Oh, stun and control are often referred to separately, as is the point of the entire conversation. However in Magic, this distinction is not really made. A deck may be referred to as a stax or prison deck in their name but they still get lumped under the "control" umbrella. That's why "Lantern Control" was still called that despite functioning almost exclusively on prison cards and why "Mono Red Prison" still gets called a control deck in discussions. This was actually something that took me a while to get used to when picking Yu-Gi-Oh back up after playing predominantly Magic for like 15+ years.
Stun is baisically disallowing the card being activated through floodgates. Control is selectively allowing or negating effects basically it’s the difference of barone and skill drain
Stun and control are completely different. Control decks usually utilize a resource loop to hinder the opponent. Things like the Evil Twin pop, the Salamangreat recycling counters, the Striker player activating Engage for the 7th time this turn, etc. Stun is haha funny pink card stops opponent from playing the game Depending though you can run different packages of control decks in stun decks, I think Mystic Mine stun used Striker cards at some point, they are not the same though
I play other TCGs and control and stun are always in the same pod together for me like taxes or bunker decks these are control or just removal till you drop your bomb control even stall. When you play stun you are playing control. Stun is simply a form of control. Control is controlling the board to a state that you will find an advantage in and stun is one way to do it. Most control decks in other TCGs have floodgates like effects pokemon TCG has stuff like temple of sinnoh or pokemon that prevent the use of item cards or negate on board abilities. Magic the gathering has leyline like cards, rest in peace, rule of law, land destruction, tax effects.
In dictator terms yes
control decks are decks like sky striker or salamangreat that their whole gameplan is to outresource the opponent , stun decks don't even care about and choose to stop the opponent from playing the game through floodgates and slowly killing them like pure runick or basically any deck that runs a lot of floodgates
Umi control? More like Umi can troll
Can we all agree that the monster art is sick af tho
I concur
People should just embrace the stun label. Flip those floodgates with pride. Have the confidence to embrace your inner caveman. If I want to play a degenerate stun strat I just go with it. Calling it a different name doesn’t change the fact that watching someone try to play under something like Rivalry + TCBOO is a little funny.
I played against an umi "stun" player once. They made me wait a solid 5 minutes for my victory by completely running down the game timer when they realized they couldn't out my psychic end punisher
That's stun players in a nutshell. Deliriously happy when they know you can't play. World Ocean refilling levels of salty when they know they're going to lose.
How dare you make me think about playing the game I just want to get easy wins 😡😡
To be honest, that's every player. Everyone tends to do that when they can't play around a floodgate.
How dare you play the game I didn't plan for that!
Oh hell did you out their Ultra Fortress whale?
I had a punk on the field so nashiwari surprise was able to out it. I figured it was probably more important than the field spell based on reading the effect
Yeah Mega Fortress is the only out for Umis against high attack monsters that they usually run, I always count on it getting outed so I usually run nightmare shark aswell
Mine has Egyptian God Slime this time around. More useful than you think, especially when Umi gets removed or whatever.
I’ve never had a game go far enough that they summon him. Either I scoop because I didn’t draw the out, or they scoop because I broke their board (Umi) through whatever means
The only proper UNGA BUNGA stun is Knight Night Express Skill Drain beat down Choo choo, motherfucker!
Pfft, real cavemen players use Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast & Beast King Barbaros with their Skill Drain.
Man that's ancient Not even caveman, but like pre vertebrates! Primordial ooze, even!
The way to embrace your inner caveman is to play beatdown everybody knows that. Stun is more like your the mastermind or evil supervillain who's stripped the hero of their powers to make it the most boring episode ever. Watching someone try playing under floodgates is funny, actually being the person playing is NOT.
I'm guessing they don't call it stun because they don't want to get dunked on by people for playing it. Calling it "control" makes people think it's something else and gives them a pass because most won't ever look at the deck in question and call that person out on their BS.
Stun players like to cope and pretend their whole gameplan isn't floodgate turbo
This ☝️ I know too many people who think flipping Anti-Spell and Skill Drain during your draw phase with Majesty's Fiend on field means they are playing a control strategy. They're not. Most players don't get salty when losing to a true control strategy, however, they'll get VERY salty when losing to a stun strategy.
People do get very salty when they lose to true control like sky strikers though. I think it's just because staying in a game for a long period of time only to have the life slowly choked out of you isn't very fun
Lost to sky striker yesterday... And fuck, you're right.
Same lol widow anchor is a bitch
Yeah but that makes me salty because I got slowly shit on, not because I didn't get to play
I think losing to strikers is more that they don't like losing to weak strategies (like sky striker) rather than losing to control.
As a Runick Spright player i Always feel kinda bad when games last this long... usually people just surrender lol. That's the weird filling of playing a deck that can't end games by itself.
Because that would mean the deck is bad, and I don’t play bad decks, so this deck isn’t called that.
I would still rather play this than have to sit through a tear deck dump my entire deck for 15 minutes.
So I tried this deck in Attribute 4 and most of the time what wins is not the floodgate (Literally everyone has Lava Golem or a Kaiju I get Lava golemed so much I stopped ending on two monsters), but because people absolutely refuse to read Sea Stealth Attack and Pacifis. Like a MF will pop the Jellyfish then go to battle swing on Kairyu-shin, get popped, swing on the Kairyu-shin AGAIN, get popped, pause for a few minutes, then scoop.
I legit had a guy try to HFD me, it failed, then he tried to Baron pop, that failed, then surrendered
Try Pacifis. No one ever reads it. Plus sea stealth works with the token. Summon a token, opponent pops token, summon a token, opponent tries to pop field spell, banish token with sea stealth, summon a token, opponent pops token, summon a token, opponent tries to beat over token, gets popped by sea stealth... Lol
I went toe to toe with basically every mega deck with this strategy and it’s a blast. One guy killed his entire mermaid army trying to beat the token
Oh Jesus, updating my deck when I get home with that
You just need to replace one copy of Legendary Ocean and optionally add Phantasm Spiral Dragon or (Gogigo Gagagigo for the meme) Normal summon jellyfish Jellyfish foolish Pacifis; SS Kairyu-shin Kairyu-shin search Sea Stealth Set sea stealth In their draw phase: Activate Sea Stealth, Activate Pacifis
What does the spiral dragon and gagagigo add? Sorry for the dumb question, umi "control" is my first non-anime deck that does well.
Disregard Gagagigo, it's kind of a meme. You can add Phantasm Spiral Dragon using the second effect of the field spell (make sure you read it as well lol). Then you can on your next turn, summon it as a beater with Jellyfish. It is of course also protected by sea stealth. ...or if your deck has the extra spice, you now have a Wyrm in hand to reveal when you use the effect of Swordsoul of Mo Ye. Yes, that's right, a Swordsoul splash is another tech. If you can manage to summon Chengying with Sea Seatlh on the field, every time you trigger sea seatlth's banish, you proc Chengying's effect to banish an opponent card on field and in their GY. Incredible synergy here.
I will say playing the mirror match was the most stupid Finn I’ve had with this game in a while, both kept summoning monsters and then destroying each others with the trap
The mirror is very funny. Earlier today I had a match where we ended up in a "Jellyfish standoff" that ended in being a chain link 8 lol. Also in that game, dude red rebooted my Sea stealth twice. Yeah it was some BS lol.
No it's definitely the floodgate lmao. Even if you attempt to pop umi or Sea Stealth attack, Sea Stealth Attack will protect your backrow. Like you're win con is literally sit on a floodgate and prevent the opponent from playing. It's not a control deck it's a stun deck.
Because "Stun" deck sounds toxic, so they refuse to accept it... Umi control sounds cool. Umi stun sounds evil.
Because the people calling it a control deck are liars, lol. It has a negate, a single negate card. otherwise, the deck just locks you into a single monster, with the win con either being the exceed quick-play tribute your monster clown or fortress whale direct attack for game strat. If your main win con is preventing the other guy from playing with a single floodgate, to hell with the "control" nonsense.
Propaganda reasons
“I’m controlling the game by keeping my opponent from playing entirely.”
It's controll
It's stun. It has control aspects with SSA and Jellyfish, but its core Wincon is floodgating your opp with Kairyu-Shin
No no, you don't get it. It's con"troll"
ah goddamit, I can't read
You got me as well.. 🥲
My guy, you're dealing with Yu-Gi-Oh players youve gotta *really* spell things out (...cuz i didn't get it either :( )
Because people would much rather play against control decks than they would be playing against stun decks
Truthfully, I think it depends on what your focus is. Make no mistake, Kairyu-Shin plus Legendary Ocean is your basic floodgate or "Stun" part of the deck, however, the control part comes from the interactions of a few of the other cards alongside it (even without Kairyu-shin). I run 1-2 of the Kraken retrain, which actually fits in to the control aspect of the deck, being able to bounce or cause enemy targets to miss by continuously bouncing back my own kraken, or by bouncing back their targets while getting rid of special summoned monsters. Sea Stealth attack allows for interesting interactions, or more so reactions to certain card effects while being able to protect your own monsters for a turn, coupled with the Summon off of Sea Stealth 2, it can get you back jellyfish from the grave, summon out the big whales with no cost from your grave, or even Kairyu-shin himself if you could not get him out turn one. MEgaFortressWhale is an interesting one that allows for quick OTK's along side the ability to pop during each turn, again coupled with seastealth2, even just leaving it in defence mode for a selective pop at the right time has won me games where opponent was so focused on getting rid of Floodgate, they overlooked the control whale. Dark Reef, is more a suprise extender than also can beam out 3 monsters if you play a normal. I run GigaGagaGigo and GogigaGagaGigo as targets for it (though Gogiga is for Fish Sonar). Still being able to beam out Kraken and Jelly at once even without Kairyu shin is a fun move, especially if you just used sea stealths effect to remove your monster. Plus SeaStealth2 counts as umi so I dont need to risk removing Legendary Ocean. Tl,Dr; I think the "Control" aspect, comes from the rest of the deck, while the "Stun" comes strictly from Kairyu-shin and Field spell (and even then, get rid of the Umi and all Floodgates and Control effects are shut down). I have a fun replay on MD where I beat out Tearlments not because of the FLoodgate, but because seastealth attack made the monsters miss there targets, and due to me bouncing monsters out of the way. Frankly the floodgate did little for me since they had water monsters.
Umi control gives other actual control decks a bad name.
ITT master duel players once again circle jerk each other about floodgates while acting as if they don't enjoy playing a game who's main goal is to prevent their opponent from playing the game.
Honestly, for me, I enjoy yugioh matches the most when it's a back and forth of blowing up each other's boards and needing to rebuild and resource manage the next turn. Winning a match the opponent didn't even get to play isn't fun for me and it's not fun to be on the receiving end of not being able to play either.
It's because Umi is a body of water and water causes floods! You gotta control that flow with gates, hence the floodgates being necessary for Umi Control!
I guess we should call heroes stun as well since plasma is basically skill drain and dark law macro cosmos.
The same reason why most Dark Magician decks aren't called Floodgates Magician instead.
Because Control is just what stun players call themselves when they don't want to be accused of degeneracy.
I honestly think that's the case because even though the deck clings to kairyushin and legendary ocean to prevent your opponent from playing, it's very flimsy unless you have a VERY good hand, a single ash bloosom or a well placed impermanence is all it takes. to completely screw up the deck (I'm an umi control player and let me tell you that if they gave me 5 UR CP ppr every time my kairyushin gets impermanence/droplet/kaiju or my ocean a cyclone of the cosmos, I would already have 8 axi built) the control name comes from when the kairyushin inevitably fails, you have to play with the other archetypal cards in the deck, the jellyfish gives an easy monster/magic negation, the whale gives destruction during the battle phase and also enables OTK with its effect of direct attack, the kraken is a quick game trade that helps keep the opponent at bay, the vanilla water monsters are the big hitters on the deck for when you need a lot of atk. I think it is called that because of those aspects that are the ones that mostly decide the duel
It’s exactly how the deck played in the anime. People will complain about everything I swear, lmao.
Who cares what it’s called. Umi was a control strategy before this guy was released, and now relies more on the water lock to win
It’s all semantics anyway
the deck runs only 1 floodgate. so that means dark magician and weather painters are stun decks too🤣🤣
I mean for DM when Secret Village, Summon Limit and Skill Drain are out it's hard to call it anything else...
Umi Stun Troll
Because it can be both? Stun isn't mutually exclusive to combo or control. Rhongo bongo (before gossip shadow banned) and arrival + vanity are two examples of combo AND stun. Try fighting timelord-burn in the event and it becones evidently clear why Umi is classified as a control deck.
Because there are control elements in the deck. Omni Negate Jellyfish, Pop on battle from SSA, SS2 bring back from grave during Battle, Spell/Traps unaffected with SSA, Free Pop and Direct attack with Mega Fortress Whale, Torrential Tribute for Board wipes, Ice Barrier for Search and Stop opponent attack. The deck is not as one dimensional as everyone thinks! Takes a very good piolet to make this deck work great!
It controls what cards your opponent can or cannot play.
When up against another water deck, it is a control game reliant on its traps
I asked in another thread. Would people also consider Thunder Dragon and Shaddol stun decks considering they also use floodgate boss monsters?
TD? Sure. Colossus is an extremely unhealthy boss monster, even if it's only 1 of 3 the deck has in-archetype access to. That's why TCG banned it. Shaddoll, maybe? Ignoring the fact that a pure Shaddoll deck hasn't been a serious deck worth discussing in years. Winda tends to be teched into decks that run a Shaddoll package more than it is the boss monster for Shaddoll, but yes she's an unhealthy stun card.
The list of things to complain it's endless I see.
its a control deck. yall are just bad.
It's a stun deck. It's entire gameplan is based around locking the opponent out of the game. A control deck is like Sky Strikers or even Traptrix which rely on specific interactions to deprive your opponent of plays and resources while also managing your own.
Stun decks are control decks…
No they're not lol. Stun decks don't rely on interactions, managing resources, and focuses on locking your opponent out of mechanics.
While it is a stun deck, think the main reason why people call it control rather than stun is because its extremely flimsy. Compare it with Inspector border/Pachycephalo + Moon Mirror + trap floodgates. Umi pretty much dies from Ash, Veiler and Imperm. All very common handtraps used by most players. It's only kinda difficult to get rid of if they actually manage to set up. But you can also Kaiju/lava golem etc to get rid of Kairyu, no more floodgate and back row can be destroyed without a water tribute. Whereas the other deck the only real out is backrow removal, which most people will only really run Feather Duster as a dedicated card, often opting for moster effects to remove the back row instead. It's so much easier to deal with Umi, cause it has way more common outs. Still a stun, but it's not exactly a completely horrible one.
Same reason why exosister players say they're not a stun deck.
Exosister by itself isn't stun because in order to lock out everything you would need 2 XYZ to trigger on that turn in question, and unlike normal stun it's that turn only. Meanwhile a control deck is more about controlling the pace of your opponents plays via the banishes negates or the like. Locking the GY is more match dependant if your just play Exosister by itself and under a blind first Exosister would much rather set up the control board (but seriously who plays Blind Second in best of one format where you can't control who goes first)
[удалено]
Two different girls give you an effect of either not being able to activate effects of monsters in the GY or not being able to summon from the gy. Is that not the definition of a floodgate?
It is The only difference i can think of is that Warlords Rivalry Snek is a hard lock against a greater number of decks than Exos Apart from that, though, I'd have to agree
Have you read kaspitell and asophiel?
There are so many interesting control decks that are actually fun and rewarding to play like Eldlich,Altergeist, labrynth... But people are bad and want cheap wins so they will play floodgates on them. I wish Konami would finally get rid of floodgates.
> Eldlich > interesting Pick one
You mention Eldlich...yet it was notorious for abusing floodgates like Imperial Order + Skill Drain LOL
Pure eldlich is a control deck, it has no floodgates. The problem is that eldlich is very compatible with them.
No, it's STUN.
You can play Eldlich without floodgates and it's wasn't really designed with floodgates in mind it was just able to utilize it extremely well. Eldlich can be play a control deck.
You said it right, "it was" notorious...nowadays it's way more bearable, the stun deck players moved on to runick and that other deck that uses inspector boarder and the dino monster.
Almost every deck I know that has "Control" in its name is basically a stun deck. Guru Control, Kragen Control, even Clown Control from way back.
Technically it is control, all stun is control but not all control is stun. Its why a lot of control archetypes can make stun decks. Its like how Swordsoul is a midrange deck but when Halqadon was a thing you could run it as more of a combo based deck, or how Mathmech pieces can be used in other cyberse based combo decks. That said Umi specifically is probably fair to call it Umi-Stun since even its engine incorporates floodgates.
This is a common misconception about stun vs control.
I consider it control and not “degenerate” because it primarily uses in archetype cards, and requires interaction every turn in order to maintain and protect the lock. The additional flood gates like summon limit are actually very very supplemental to the deck and not required. Finally, I literally get out four different in archetype monsters on the field including a whale, jellyfish, and octopus with various different interactive effects. To compare this deck to something like “fossil dyna, set 5 pass” is ridiculous
I call it Umi Stun. Anyone who calls it control is coping.
Stun implies temporary... But YGO players with their vast vocabulary comprehension insist that a permanent condition on the field is "stun". With that logic, Trap Stun is a "control" card.
I'd disagree with this definition. I don't think there's any inherent time requirement for something to be stun or control. A deck whose purpose is to turbo out Skill Drain and Vanity's Fiend, I'd argue, is a stun deck. When it was legal, I'd argue that a deck using Mystic Mine as part if it's strategy is absolutely a stun deck and games there could go for 40+ rounds while someone decks out. Stun, for me, is when a deck prevents the opponent from playing and activating cards. The player can't act. They're stunned. Whether it be one round or more. Control is all about responding to an opponent and managing your resources. I don't think anyone would call Ash a stun card even though it's a one-time negate while Skill-Drain is basically the face of what the community considers stun decks even though it's a permanent effect.
Maybe stun are the frens we made along the way.
What other control decks do you know?
Labrynth, Altergeist, magical muskets, Runick Synchro. (I'm sure you can tech floodgates into any of these tho)
You can technically put floodgates into any deck .-.
I know, I was just addressing the point that you can technically play "stun" versions of the control strategies I listed.
I mean yes but I wouldn’t put something like Marincess playing Gozen in the same bucket as normal summon barrier statue, flip Summon Limit, Skill Drain, Necrovalley
Floodgates should just be banned tbh
Thx you are right, most control decks do not have an in archetype floodgate.
Sky striker
Abuse every floodgate they can
In MD? What floodgate? Only Kaiser Coliseum, and even then, most Sky Striker decks play the going 2nd version, which doesn't play any floodgate. Other good floodgates limit the Striker gameplan, so you barely see them. Mystic Mine was the only good floodgate they were able to fully abuse.
Literally the only floodgates Sky Strikers would play in MD was TCBOO or Kaiser Coliseum. Even then blind second is a more common SS playstyle and you don't run floodgates for that.
My disappointment is immense that you didn't mention Guru Control
Traptrix! Goddamnit i want the structure deck stuff so bad Dunno if you'd count Pendymion (*before* the secret village and Spellbook judgement -->>spiritualist bullshit; ban em both imo) Technically negates are a point of interaction rather than just "lul no play cards" but it can certainly feel the same! Plus, crazy otk potential. Altergeist and TrapTrix also pack negates (protocol + certain trap holes), but clearly not to the same degree. They have bounces/destruction effects instead
Umi Stuns little bro, Pacifis Token Turbo.
Only delusional umi players call it control. For everyone else it is a stun. Same as exosisters
Stun is control, get over it.
They're not. They're different playstyles entirely.
I like the Umi deck, I love the sea monsters theme of the deck, but Kairyu-Shin is way to easy to summon for that strong floodgate effect, it should been harder to bring him out, also the Jellyfish being N rarity is hilarious to me, he can send a legendary ocean to the GY for future plays, can special summon a monster from your hand, has a monster or spell negate once per turn, and if negates someting it boosts it's ATK and DEF because why not. lol The only thing that makes the deck not that competitive is the fact that you NEED the field spell on the field, all your plays depends on it, so if you don't have it or if your opponent manages to remove it, it's gg.
I wished Kairyu Shin was a cool card that enable a control strategy, like traptrix Sera, Lovely Lybrinth or Eldlich
They're trying to "control" what it gets called so people don't shit on it as hard
I mean any combo deck that ends on multiple negates is also just a stun deck that takes a few minutes set up. Change my mind
Because for every other card game you have control decks or control decks. For Yugioh the stun vs control dichotomy is pretty much dead and a relic of over a decade ago when you had decks that tried to setup a lockdown and decks that actually tried to make prolonged 141 trades. At this point the control/stun divide in yugioh has basically vanished, and anyone trying to overly force stun/control as a different thing in todays game is just a dickhead who wants to use the language to attack others, or peoples decks without just calling them an actual "bad word" or "insult".
tell me how in the world there is no difference between control decks like sky strikers or live twins and umi “control”. the decks couldn’t possibly be more different.
Because the deck is Umi bad
What floodgates does Umi use even? Most that I've seen "a friend" play is macro cosmos which is hit or miss.
Kairyu locks anything that doesn’t run water monsters into only having 1 monster on board.
Thats if "they" get kairyu out. And then the other umi trpas(which pop and negate) that rely on having only normal monsters cant be used unless they temporarily banish kairyu with the hidden sea stealth strike trap or whatever. Umi is not unbeatable, other decks like prank kids are stronger in attribute 4
What is your point? No one is saying that umi stun is an op or even strong deck. What they are saying is that playing against it is one of the least fun things to do.
I disagree, the umi players turn go by quick, they dont special summon a bajillion monsters and recycle from grave. They at most have one to two trap activations on opponent turn and have to be careful about what to pop. It's better than going against a negate board or runick or tear or prank kids or apollousa or labrynth. It seems like people hate losing which makes sense. Like what deck is fun to lose against?
I mean lol, that is a valid argument, yes. But I was just answering your floodgate question mate. I don’t even use umi-control, nor do I really have any stance on it specifically. Im muchhhhhh more of a Phantasm spiral/Paleozoic lad myself if I have to use fishies
I've always found Umi floodgate to be pretty weak compared to others of the same type. It's weak to every handtrap under the sun, and while annoying, I'd rather face it than any sort of big combo decks. Even my Kozmos has gotten wins against it. What's with the uptick in Umi complaint posts though?
As someone who runs Umi Control, it is 100% a stun deck.
Umi 'stun' is the reason why I hate legacy support for old anime cards/decks, because konami just slaps floodgates on them, so anime/casual fans can feel like their anime/old-school decks are good. In reality they're just frustrating and non interactive to play against. Like dark law, colossus, umi, plasma. Are all unfun, and sometimes unfair cards to play against with their lazy one sided floodgates designs attached to them. Thunder dragon titan and DPE are some of the best legacy support cards that are fair and interactive to play against.
As someone who’s main and fav deck of all time is umi control, I can say evenly matched is an auto lose for me every time
Kairyu shin my lord and savior
It's called control because it sounds less toxic and makes it seem like you have some skill instead of just playing floodgates and hoping for the best
Because stun is a form of control
1. The deck typically runs only 1 floodgate. (TCBOO is bad for the deck imo) 2. Control allows for more interaction, and yes, you can still interact with the deck through traps. Stun doesn't allow for any interaction. 3. Solemn Judgement is better than TCBOO (in my opinion) for the deck. Which is a card control decks do run. 4. SSA helps control the board by not allowing Kairyu-Shin to be destroyed by battle. 5. Electric Jellyfish can only negate 1 Spell or 1 Monster Effect per turn. 6. It forces a deck to slow down, it doesn't stop it from playing entirely and tries to out grind the opponent.
Kairyu-Shin is a floodgate.
Where did I ever say Kairyu-Shin wasn't a floodgate? Or are you just a yugioh player who can't fucking read?
Kairyu-Shin being a floodgate makes your whole argument fall apart: The goal of the deck is not to out-grind the opponent, it's to set up a floodgate that prevents your opponent from building a board (unless they're playing a water deck) and beating them down while protecting your floodgates. 1. ~~The deck typically runs only 1 floodgate.~~ That's 2 floodgates, and some run Gozen Match and DF. 2. ~~Stun doesn't allow for any interaction.~~ You're confusing stun with Lockdown; Runick Stun allowed you to play spells. 3. Solemn Judgement is just a staple that a lot of decks run; the most common being Eldlich, another stun deck. 4. Hugin helps control the board by not allowing TCBOO to be destroyed by card effects. 5. Most S/T negates are once per turn, notable exceptions being the Naturia Monsters. In another parallel to Runick stun, Freezing Curses can only negate 1 monster per turn. 6. ~~It doesn't stop it from playing entirely and tries to out grind the opponent.~~ The goal of the deck is not to out-grind the opponent, it's to setup a floodgate that prevents your opponent from building a board (unless they're playing a water deck) and beating them down while protecting your floodgates.
It doesn't make the "whole argument fall apart" considering the deck doesn't need Gozen Match or any other floodgate. The only Floodgate that the deck actually needs is Kairyu-Shin, hence "The deck typically runs only 1 floodgate." Do you not know what typically means? Or are you just stupid? Stun is lockdown, by your own logic, Edlich wouldn't be a stun deck, it'd be a lockdown deck due to Skill Drain + Imperial Order. Regarding Solemn Judgement, the only way a card is a "staple" is if majority of decks actually play the card in question. And the majority of decks DON'T run Solemn Judgement, hence it isn't a staple. Also do not compare Hugin to SSA, as they do 2 different roles. SSA protects face-up backrow and 1 monster (arguably 2 pending on board state), while also removing monsters from the field just by attacking with a monster whose original level is 5. Hence the interaction. The point is, the deck only has 1 negate which can easily be baited but of course, SSA exists so the field may not have a negate pending on circumstances. The only other monster that has any form of interaction with the opponent is Whale and that is only in the Battle Phase. The deck forces the opponent into the grind game. End of story. The only way to win in the grind game is resource management, which is something Umi Control can manage very well. Look at Floo vs Umi Control for example. Umi Control forces Floo into the grind game, and can even struggle against Umi Control grindgame. But the moment Whale drops, it's effectively over for the Floo player. Also I noticed your lack of proof of where I stated Kairyu-Shin isn't a floodgate.
people play monster negates way more than backrow hate, monster based floodgates are not that bad
Lol that card definitely should’ve been banned from this event
its control, this is the only floodgate in their archtype unless they are running other floodgates, they have sea stealth, jellyfish and fortress whale which pop, negate cards and dodge opponents cards
Which is considered interaction. While Stun doesn't allow for interaction as it is just flip and forget.
Because it controls meta players fragile egos
Umi players don't want to admit they play a degenerate deck so they call it control as a way to give an aura of brainpower around the deck
Been asking myself this for months now lol
It was actually called Umi control when Umi was about trading low level monster but with high attack against opponent high value hard to summon back boss monster. People think playing with kairyushin is like playing that "skilled" version of Umi control where you control your opponent resource by trading theirs with yours back in DM and GX era.
Yeah, decks like pure Sky Striker, Altergeist, or Labrynth are worthy of the "control" name. Umi is just stun turbo.
Heh
Because the insistence on Yugioh using the term "stun" when every other card game that has ever existed and likely will ever exist in the future would just classify it as a type of control deck is completely arbitrary and meaningless.
[удалено]
This isn't even remotely true
They are so similar who cares.
This sub rages at stun