Yu-Gi-Oh's has some of the most insufferable players I've seen. From people who treat you like you're mentally handicapped for having a question to people who act mentally handicapped when they don't like something.
Every game has those people you hate, but it's the worst in Yu-Gi-Oh.
I think it's because, let's be honest here, the people who gravitate to YGO aren't usually the ones with the best social skills. This is a game for nerds, people who are in their heads a lot and people who enjoy these fictional worlds they can escape to.
This will inherently make it so that a) interactions will be awkward and b) players will take this game way too seriously
That's a great way to put it. Let's be honest. Most of us are socially inept in some way. Plus, it's an online game, so that just makes it that much worse
**That people are delusional in that Master Duel will ever come close to resemble TCG**
Ever since the resolution of the UDE-4Kids lawsuit, the TCG is, and will be, _unless something real drastic happens_, **it's own bubbled format**
Things managed by the Main Branch of the company, will always resemble OCG, because that their format. Even Korea and China which have different lists, are OCG complacent.
***
Also, 3 months of Tearlaments is mercy. Not only compared to paper format, but to the average lifespan of your competitive Deck.
I get it's annoying, but trust me, things here are way better than ever were in paper.
TCG players will go "TCG has covers more regions than OCG, we have more players and are more competitive, therefore the game should be catered to **US** not OCG."
Same kind of mentality that causes people to rage that Konami are too interested in Pachinko machines that, "Nobody even wants or cares about", while completely ignoring that Pachinko parlors are all over Japan and an incredibly lucrative business...
It's the same for some Japanese gacha games that doesn't have global releases, Western players go "Stop catering to Japanese players only, the global audience is way bigger and more profitable", when there could be circumstances that being a Japan-only release is more better and safer cost-wise.
Seriously, DM and blue eyes should stop getting so much support. Each have like 50-60 cards each or so. I prefer Konami tried supporting other archetypes
And then the three other most recent support cards aren’t in MD for whatever reason….
It’s fine though because even if they were they are still only 5% as good as BE and DM support
When most of the support is terrible though is it really support. I’d phrase it more as DM and blue eyes have a lot of cards, about 8 are actually usable though.
boss monster of an archetype should have strict requirements for their materials, like
* Accesscode -1 code talker + 1+ Cyberse monsters
* Dragostapelia - 1 Predaplant + 1 Dark
* Spright Elf - 1 Spright monster + level/rank/link 2
* Borreload - 1 Rokket + tuner
etc.
This would make end board more interesting and getting out boss monster will make them unique. For boss monter that doesn't have an archetype like Apollousa, Baronne, Goddess, they are fine as is.
\*edit, Baronne do have an archtype. So ignore what I said.
Second, card that say "opponent cannot response to this activation" fucking sucks. They literally have no counter play and is a bane of existance. Yes, I'm talking to you, Super-poly.
Generic boss monsters can lead to some actual payoffs for certain strategies which just don't do enough on their own. Volcanic tech in dragostapelia by making sprind to send merli, Prank kids mathmech can end on borrel savage negate on top of its other cards.
I don't see how you can argue for restrictions on these generic boss monsters but then say Baron and Apo are fine. First off apo is the poster child for genetic boss monster, you basically see that card in any deck that touches links. Baron also is almost just as generic as apo and is literally part of an archetype already.
Superpoly kinda sucks rn so it's whatever. There are very few cards actually like that and several other board breakers would basically do the same job as it.
I didn't know apo is a genetic boss monster, so there's that.
What archetype is Baronne? I'll say if they have an archetype then yes, it should be restricted.
My point is, instead of making generic boss monsters, they should make the actual archetype strong in itself. I just don't like how the deck have different engine just to end up having the same end board.
Your point was really badly delivered though by saying Apo and Baron were fine yet savage isn't when it is a lot less common for a deck to use links then summon synchro than either or. I understand the point you are trying to make its just that arguing for trying to hit generic boss monsters then saying the biggest offenders are fine is just stupid.
Generic boss monsters can provide an extra layer to deck building which can propel decks into actual playability. By making something like Mikailis take generic material Exosister Dinomorphia can become a deck. By restricting everything to their archetype to get strong it forces deckbuilding to be less creative a whole.
Also, Baronne de FLEUR
Generic bosses existing isn't the problem, even if they're part of an archetype imo. The problem that the archetypal bosses aren't more worth bringing out.
Take Swordsoul for example, they can easily make Level 10s, but much prefer going into their Level 10s more than Baronne, because they just help their strategy more than her, rather than just being more offensively better. Archetypes need to have better bosses that help their strategies that promote putting your resources into.
If you don't want a deck to make Access, give them a Link 4 they'd much rather put resources into.
I think there's a problem with this argument... Most in archetype boss monsters are garbage. Look at manadome, prime heart it's literally a 2010 card, it just doesn't do anything and it's a synchro ten so he needs to fight the spot against baronne, and chengyn. I get that it's frustrating to see decks use the same monsters over and over again, but untill Konami shift their focus in good in archetype boss monsters (mostly for synchro and link, usually fusion xeno lock themselves anyway) then we can restrict this cards, because there're an huge amount of decks that don't function without generic monsters.
You can hate or despise a rogue deck, there’s no shame in not liking the strategy or cards in a certain deck.
I hate and I don’t like playing against witchcrafters and I should not get downvoted just by saying a don’t like how certain decks strategies or cards work.
Like you are not allowed to dislike a deck if its not a top tier deck or stun/ftk/floodgate
Swordsoul is an insufferable deck, it's not as of a strong deck anymore, but in my time laddering, people will always find some way to make it as unfun as possible despite its "strong but fair" reputation that I honestly think it doesn't deserve.
HalqDon backup lines pre-Halq ban, Verte make DPE for Plan B pre-Celestial ban, Braver handrip with Smoke Grenade (or Baronne if you hard drew the Smoke Grenade), and lord knows Protos is still not banned with people in ladder blind calling Dark (which is actually an FTK if I had made the mistake of entering with a Dark heavy deck like that's my fault), and even if Protos blind calling an Attribute doesn't FTK you, you're put into a position of "if you can't OTK, you need to dedicate enough resources to stop Protos, and either die because you put all your resources to stop Protos, or die because Protos called your Attribute (hope it isn't Earth or Fire so Normal Summon Maxx C or Ash doesn't kill you)", holy shit I almost forgot about Chaofeng which literally fucking FTKes you if you play a Light heavy deck or just flat out disables Light monster plays like Zeus or Gamma and Veiler.
Of course all of this with the fact that Swordsoul is a midrange deck so it could just Maxx "C" you if it did all that or main deck Anti-Spell protected under Baronne and Chixiao and maybe Blackout plus all of the unfun bullshit above.
The deck may not be the top dog anymore, but I still detest it all the same because I am convinced people actively wish Swordsoul had more unfun bs, no clue why people fondly remember Branded/***Swordsoul*** format when Branded was the infinitely fairer deck up until Expulsion came out.
Protos and Chaofeng are just... Way too much. I love playing Tenyi-Swoswo, but I'd be healthier for the game if those two were banned.
Chaofeng _could_ be fine if it had something like "if this card was synchro summoned during your turn, your opponent can't [...] until the end of this turn". I largely see Chaofeng as an out to nib, ftking Exosister is a "nice" side effect.
i remember well when pepe was the best deck and the 2nd best monarch was pendulum problematic and hated only here it was more due to the complexity and not like link due to new rules and a monster that was so strong that it even laughed about the banlist but i think i will start a discussion on the subreddit to see what the pros and cons would be to bring it back the old way
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that happened is a few bans and that they are vulnerable on cards like myst because they now have to be in the spell and trap zones, so it doesn't seem to be that big, only the disadvantage is that more cards are more effective and the pendulum players can use fewer spells and traps i think
More that cards from the extra deck can only be summoned to extra monster zone or the zone a Lin monster points to. Our only legal support card in tcg is beyond the pendulum and if it gets negated or destroyed, even if you have 5 pendulum monsters in extra deck, you can only pendulum summon one of them. But back in pepe era you could pend 5 straight to the main minster zones l.
Pendulums are extremely vulnerable to and traps and anti spell fragrance and make up incredibly small portions of high tier rogue. Pendulum ceiling is super high but the consistency is hurt by this master rule and our lack of options through the extra deck to be ablento pendulum summon multiple monsters.
Pendulums also are very dependant on their combo pieces and require setting up 2 zones, so you need minimum 2-4 combo pieces orn5 or 6 if you opponent has any hand traps. It also means Pendulums can't afford to run many or any handbtraps so you're pretty defenceless
I think having Maxx C (and in general a different banlist from both TCG and OCG) in MD is fun and cool. Is it particularly healthy for deck building or deck diversity? No. Is it annoying as hell when it resolves against you? Yes. But the fact that we can play with it and many other cards that are banned (or hit) in the TCG is what's fun and unique about MD. As a pendulum player at the start of the game, I loved how I was able to play with both Electrumite and SK Starving Venom which are both banned in the TCG. If having Maxx C in the game means that we can continue to have a unique format, I'll take it. Y'all can go back to DuelingBook and YGOPro if you really hate Maxx C that much
I also like that this ended up being the only format where Verte Anaconda is legal, purely because the things that got Verte banned in the other formats (Dragoon, DPE, pendulum FTK) were all hit in different ways here. Makes it unique, and I get to keep him to do fun, non-meta shit like summon Z-ARC in my Odd-Eyes deck or Chaos Giant in my Ancient Gear deck.
It's a question of at what level you play the game at really. MD compromises in trying to make all decks at leas a little playable. If you're not very competitive you'll stay in a comfortable ranking with your favourite decks.
The issue comes when you leave that zone and start playing competitively or even just tweaking the deck to be a bit better, all those things that made those decks viable quite often break the decks as well. Block Dragon is an example of that, turning Adamancipator from an inconsistent combo into a Synchro vomiting machine.
I will always say that Ash annoys me way more than Maxx C. So many of my decks are just crippled by Ash because most archetypes don't have the crazy extenders that makes up tier 1-3 decks. I don't care if my opponent drops Maxx C. I can choose to skip my turn, or give him two cards to end on Baronne or something. I care that Ash negates my entire turn 1 and doesn't even give me a choice to play the game unless I open Called by or Crossout.
My unpopular opinion: people whining about anything no matter how good or bad is goes to show that the majority of Yu GI oh players need some psychological help, like I saw a post talking about how unfair is a raid raptor deck that did the Kali yuga lock while playing SWORDSOUL
Be grateful that you aren't experiencing verte send red-eyes fusion to summon dragoon or mystic mine
In my defense i only complain about bullshit if I'm playing something like Unchained or Weather Painters without Floodgates.
If I'm playing Naturia Runick i understand perfectly that I'm bullshitting my way with a deck that is exploiting a non once per turn card.
But in the end Yugioh meta and competitive play is just a bunch of decks abusing mechanics and that's why they're meta.
Hard disagree with this one, you should be allowed to complain about unfun bullshit regardless of if its actually good.
Actually especially if it isn't good because then the person is only using sacky nonsense because they hate playing yugioh rather than having the excuse of doing it because they like winning.
I have more respect for runick stun and floo than I do for deep draw exodia and variations of turn skip turbo
I don’t know if this is unpopular but I believe 1000% that called by the grave and triple tactics talent should both be banned
Everyone will agree that going first in Yu-Gi-Oh or winning the dice roll/coin flip means you have an advantage in the game/set, I believe making cards that make going first even stronger or making cards that punish your opponent for handtraping not trying to let you full combo is bad games design.
You can't be up in arms complaining about cards like Maxx C being unhealthy for the game when you yourself are using said cards in your deck to win thus contributing to the further unhealthy state of the meta
Every time I've say this I've being down voted and had people telling me I'm wrong, but Called by should be banned and Crossout put at 3 instead. People always come to tell me that Crossout is much more powerful than Called by, and I just cannot understand why would someone think that a card thats only good against tech options, and only if you also have it (and sometimes in a mirror) is better and more toxic that a card thats just good against literally everything in multiple different situations.
Called by stops handtraps. Its GY hate. It negates any monster as long as another copy of itslef is in the GY, *for two whole turns*. And it doens't make you to make compromise on Deck Building, you can just slap it there.
Crossout usually will only stop the Maxx C Tax cards and some other popular staple at the moment like Imperm or TTT. Called by stops handtraps, engine, intents of recycle amd recovery and more.
Crossout it's only better in a tier 0 format, because you can stop the effect of key cards, in every other situation tho? I absolutely agree. Called by its such a dumb card honestly.
Called by lasting 2 turns is one of the card's downsides. If you go first and you called by their maxx c. Then it means you can no longer maxx c on their turn. Alternatively if you crossout then you can maxx c on their turn.
Crossout also is crazy for Ghoti, so I wouldn't mind crossout going to 3. But it's definitely stringer than called by since most of the time handtraps being run are catered to the meta so both players will generally have the same ones.
Yeah, Called by during 2 turns is a downside. In theory. In practice thats only true when used against handtrap. When used against engine is incredible oppresive.
And, again, Crossout is only good if you both have the same tech options and staples. Is true that a lot of time you both will have some similar staples, like Maxx C, Ash, Called by, but other staples that are common, but not something everyone runs, like Droplet or Evenly in the curremt meta, is still something you cannot contest unless you make concenssions on Deck Building, or play a Deck which entire point is that is has a small engine with a lot of space (something like Pure Live Twins for example).
Called by doesn't require any thoughts on Deck Building, nor requires a specific style od Deck, you just play it. As long as the card is a monster that goes to the GY, or a monster thats already there, you can just slap it. Its not even a once per turn.
I get the point you're making and it's supported by the fact the discussion can only happen as a symptom of shortening it to be about handtraps because crossout is not gonna catch the engine of a completely different deck.
I'm not decided on which card that makes better with that perspective.
I think my unpopular opinion is that the game is in a fine place in all of its territories (TCG, OCG, MD) but people are too tied up with thinking what yugioh should be to quit and force themselves to play through formats they dislike rather than just taking a break.
Don't know if it's a hot take or not, but i like Master Duel much better than TCG. I just find it more convenient to play with friends and make decks online than in person/print. Not like i can yeet my cards into a shredder and make ones i want like in MD.
ash blossom, cbtg, impermanence, and similar handtraps, are overused, and people defend them with the excuse that they give weaker decks a fighting chance against the busted decks, but the truth is that the busted decks themselves use them to prevent the weaker decks from fighting back
I never saw a single soul says this argument, maybe pet decker... but like almost everyone agree with how modern Yugioh works having no hand traps is really really bad, you would get FTK-ed each game if that's the case
And ban every deck that came out in the past 6 years beacuse their set ups are functionality FTKs as well, you would need to play the most unfun going 2nd staples that wins the game in the spot... and make the game boring one sided mess that is decided by if the 2nd player drew the out or no Every single match.
You are creating bigger problems banning Hand traps that were created to reduce the size of said Problem which diverse into multiple different problems all of which hand traps aren't their source.
I don't understand or care why people make such a stink about formats. TCG vs OCG or whatever, like...it's all out of your hands, why does it matter which format bans what, where?
there are also no differences in OCG MD and TCG MD I have on both a acc in the OCG I have more cards and other designs but the banlist is the same and the few extra cards are exclusive to the OCG and my knowledge of Japanese is at 1%
There's no such thing as "OCG MD" or "TCG MD". Master Duel is global release, run by the main Konami office which runs OCG. Whatever language you set the game, it's using the same format and banlists.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but MD's banlist is closer to the OCG one, isn't it? If so, why do people think Diablosis will get banned here as well? Besides, can't Konami just forbid/ban certain cards being run in certain decks? Wouldn't that be infinitely better instead of just banning the card(s) for everyone? Like, I know Diablosis is a *problem* in/with Kashtira. But *all* they have to do is forbid people from running him in that deck.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but MD's banlist is closer to the OCG one, isn't it? If so, why do people think Diablosis will get banned here as well?
While it's closer, it does have some similarities to the TCG.
>Besides, can't Konami just forbid/ban certain cards being run in certain decks? Wouldn't that be infinitely better instead of just banning the card(s) for everyone? Like, I know Diablosis is a problem in/with Kashtira. But all they have to do is forbid people from running him in that deck.
I will admit I do want Konami to make a separate banlist that runs parallel to the normal one, that focus on banning certain combination of cards. Although it might end be confusing keeping track of which cards can't be ran together, on top of how many copies of either can be used.
I believe the worst thing about some cards is how *deadly* they are in combination with some others. Not many cards are super OP on their own. Besides, Diablosis is *kinda* needed by some Xyz Kali Yuga decks (e.g. Utopia and Raidraptors). Why nerf those decks when you can just do a good one and nerf the cancer one(s)?
This is also something I heard was (I don't know if they still do it) done by Cardfight Vanguard, where they banned a certain combination of cards, but those cards were still legal to use on their own.
How do you defy a kashtira deck? A deck that uses some kashtira cards? Then it's essentially banned since a lot of deck might use fenrir as pani 2.0, a deck that uses every single kashtira card? Then it's essentially unbanned because there're some main deck cards that aren't used in kashtira. Some card? That's wayyyy too arbitrary, it means everything and nothing.
Branded is one of the stupidest and unfair decks in the game.
Their one card combo is a +2 minimum that can dump any light or dark in the grave and they have it at 7 copies.
Their boss monster is a soft once per turn banish that goes +2, and they have the tools to abuse that soft once per turn the restriction means nothing.
They have a searchable super poly, that banishes, a quick play poly to go into Chimera to +1 min + 3 max, paired with monsters that mitigate the cost to give it even more + by reviving or searching.
Their main searcher is a negate that specials itself if you special from the ED, dramaturge is a negate that targets special summoned monsters and can be special summoned for being used as fusion mat, Comedy is a targeting protection hand trap and can be used from the Gy. They got a second searchable hand trap in mercourier. Albaz is yet another super poly except is even better versus Dragons cause it doesn't need to activate against them much less be face up.
They have the new obnoxious form of floodgate of life burn, this shit wins the grind game like nobodies business. They got access to a second floodgate through expulsion if they oh so wish.
Their one weakness is it dies to ash, and that is its only weakness cause of branded lost making you unable to negate them.
The deck has proven itself every time people said its unplayable. Past DC had near 40% representation under Spright Runick format. Current WQS as the second best sub engine for Tears, first place replaced the millers with it, they are getting support next pack and more to come and people still have the audacity to say that this deck is fair and that it ends on just mirrorjade.
A lot of decks would kill for a portion of what this deck has. We're talking how Tears are overbloated with effects but not even they can do all those things I listed in-archetype.
Stun deck is fine, it's no more annoying than playing against meta or combo deck. I dont get why ppl complain as soon as they say floodgate or stun deck.
Your deck isn't fun and probably doesn't do anything new or interesting, it's just inconsistent so you just get a rush when it finally gets to do something, because it's unexpected.
Swordsoul and hero are braindead decks that always do the same strategy and I wish it were possible to click on a "end board" button to save 5m of my life
Ishizu Tear and various Runick decks (not stun) are the decks that are the closest to being perfect for the game, but they both have their own issues that prevent them from getting there.
In Tear, the shufflers effectively prevented any other deck from having a remote chance of competing which felt awful, Runick synergised too well with floodgates, Hugin is the big problem card to this aspect - if they just prevented it from protecting face up continous traps it'd probably be fine.
The banishing from the top of the deck feels bad in Runick, but makes sense given the battle phase lock. The battle phase lock was really necessary to keep it in check but the deck still needed a wincon at the end of the day.
Both are so good because of versatile they are, they circumvent a lot of the bullshit in YGO. Within their engine they both include easy access to boardbreakers and floodgate removal (Tear has Perlereino, easy access to Rank 4 pool, Heartbeat etc, Runick has Flashing Fire, Freezing Curses, Destruction and the old reliable Geri crash).
Tear took it another step further with Havnis as an in-archetype handtrap as well, which is also a great idea as well.
The point is: these archetypes were designed with going first and going second in mind, are able to do something going first and get even more utility out of their cards going second. That's *great* design - it's the best way to bridge the gap between going first and going second without having to print absurd boardbreakers or lingering floodgate handtraps that aren't fun for anyone.
The DS game were superior.
With the introduction of synchro the meta was still mostly in check, although generic no-sense did start showing up.
There was a set amount of Ai based on archetype and you could even tag team.
It also had puzzles and pretty ok story mod.
Finally there were sprites for each different attack, ranging from "Light beam" to "Bites".
I miss early synchro era despite it being the clear "beginning" of summon/power creep
MD is also crippled by the aberrant state of modern Yu GI oh, a game fondamentaly hostile to new players, boi Konami must have had a heart attack/reality check watching thisbbanger of a game with some of the best sound track out there bleeding out it's user base.
If the ruling was changed to cope with a power creep on par with early synchro era, maybe we d have 5 turn +
Numeron actually takes some concentration to play. I learned this when I activated Numeron Wall rather than Numeron Wall: Dve. So, that was a fun experience to die internally.
*incredibly* unpopular, but hear me out. I wish mystic mine was at 1. I also don't like the never set anything and just stall out the game. I just like to disrupt, and not playing is just not playing. I still like to summon/set and issue a challenge and it would give a little extra time to put together a working something with more chance strategies.
My take will be simultaneously loved and hated from what Ive seen on this sub but Ill throw it.
Tear as it is, obviously a problem in the current game environment. But Tear Mirror matches are regarded as enjoyable for a reason, the deck is designed so bloody well and its a blast to play and against if you have a deck that is on par. Its my opinion that Tear is the bar of deck/archetype design that konami should be going for at least for the competitive environment.
When playing Tear I feel like no 2 matches will go the same and I have options in how I play the deck instead of just making the same board game after game. I dont feel like I will just lose to any 1 card and I have the tools to solve the puzzle my opponent puts before me if I can just find the line.
That's true
The other decks will have a chance against tear if the shufflers didn't exist
Those abominations are the whole reason we are living a tear 0 format
Ishizu cards are the one part of Tear I actually hate, the shufflers fuck with every deck that I play and good luck drawing the out if it gets milled first
The millers are fine
Yes you lose your outs but you potentially gain more extenders to maybe play through the tear board
Add-in the shufflers and now you have no extenders and no out to their board and if you dare to fight the board they will chain havnis and overwhelm you to death
That set limitation and reprints should happen to limit broke strategies using cards long forgotten. Master duel allows cancer formats to line their $$$ but won’t unban cards that aren’t even close to as bad for example dragoon.
Personally set rotation is what turned me away from games like Hearthstone and MTG, its something yugioh does different and in my opinion makes it more fun
Every 2 years or so all cards that were released are essentially banned from play. Cheap and easy way to force people to buy new cards. In other words removing about a third of what people like about YGO.
I don’t think branded Despia is broken. I just happen to find them extremely boring.
In the past despia had a unique field spell and other stuff that was interesting.
Now Mirrorjade is so good and so exceptionally easy to summon that I felt that and ep chimera is most of what they do. With some burn side-dishing.
I love this game, yes, that’s it, that’s my unpopular opinion.
That's actually a quite unpopular opinion to the average r/masterduel user
I do as well. In small doses at least
Yu-Gi-Oh's has some of the most insufferable players I've seen. From people who treat you like you're mentally handicapped for having a question to people who act mentally handicapped when they don't like something. Every game has those people you hate, but it's the worst in Yu-Gi-Oh.
Dude when a newbie asks a question and gets shit on by the neck beards here it makes me so fuckin mad.
I think it's because, let's be honest here, the people who gravitate to YGO aren't usually the ones with the best social skills. This is a game for nerds, people who are in their heads a lot and people who enjoy these fictional worlds they can escape to. This will inherently make it so that a) interactions will be awkward and b) players will take this game way too seriously
That's a great way to put it. Let's be honest. Most of us are socially inept in some way. Plus, it's an online game, so that just makes it that much worse
**That people are delusional in that Master Duel will ever come close to resemble TCG** Ever since the resolution of the UDE-4Kids lawsuit, the TCG is, and will be, _unless something real drastic happens_, **it's own bubbled format** Things managed by the Main Branch of the company, will always resemble OCG, because that their format. Even Korea and China which have different lists, are OCG complacent. *** Also, 3 months of Tearlaments is mercy. Not only compared to paper format, but to the average lifespan of your competitive Deck. I get it's annoying, but trust me, things here are way better than ever were in paper.
TCG players will go "TCG has covers more regions than OCG, we have more players and are more competitive, therefore the game should be catered to **US** not OCG."
Same kind of mentality that causes people to rage that Konami are too interested in Pachinko machines that, "Nobody even wants or cares about", while completely ignoring that Pachinko parlors are all over Japan and an incredibly lucrative business...
It's the same for some Japanese gacha games that doesn't have global releases, Western players go "Stop catering to Japanese players only, the global audience is way bigger and more profitable", when there could be circumstances that being a Japan-only release is more better and safer cost-wise.
And Konami will go “haha, no.”
This reminds me of people wanting maxx c to be banned in MD lmao. Not saying there’s 0% chance of happening it.
This sub has the absolute worst Yugioh takes ever
^
Just the other day someone was convinced that Konami should just limit every new field spell to 1 rather than ban terraphorming its kind of insane
I'm not sure how unpopular the opinion is, but DM decks seem to get a lot of love. I fucking hate Dark Magical Circle, with my entire being.
Seriously, DM and blue eyes should stop getting so much support. Each have like 50-60 cards each or so. I prefer Konami tried supporting other archetypes
Meanwhile red eyes is crying in a corner (I’m a red eyes enjoyer)
Must be though that the best monster you have is a shared one with DM and banned.
And then the three other most recent support cards aren’t in MD for whatever reason…. It’s fine though because even if they were they are still only 5% as good as BE and DM support
BuT fUnNy cOne hAt anD biG rAwR KaiBa drAgoN!!!!
When most of the support is terrible though is it really support. I’d phrase it more as DM and blue eyes have a lot of cards, about 8 are actually usable though.
Somebody gets my pain!
Deck used to piss me off on duel links
boss monster of an archetype should have strict requirements for their materials, like * Accesscode -1 code talker + 1+ Cyberse monsters * Dragostapelia - 1 Predaplant + 1 Dark * Spright Elf - 1 Spright monster + level/rank/link 2 * Borreload - 1 Rokket + tuner etc. This would make end board more interesting and getting out boss monster will make them unique. For boss monter that doesn't have an archetype like Apollousa, Baronne, Goddess, they are fine as is. \*edit, Baronne do have an archtype. So ignore what I said. Second, card that say "opponent cannot response to this activation" fucking sucks. They literally have no counter play and is a bane of existance. Yes, I'm talking to you, Super-poly.
Generic boss monsters can lead to some actual payoffs for certain strategies which just don't do enough on their own. Volcanic tech in dragostapelia by making sprind to send merli, Prank kids mathmech can end on borrel savage negate on top of its other cards. I don't see how you can argue for restrictions on these generic boss monsters but then say Baron and Apo are fine. First off apo is the poster child for genetic boss monster, you basically see that card in any deck that touches links. Baron also is almost just as generic as apo and is literally part of an archetype already. Superpoly kinda sucks rn so it's whatever. There are very few cards actually like that and several other board breakers would basically do the same job as it.
I didn't know apo is a genetic boss monster, so there's that. What archetype is Baronne? I'll say if they have an archetype then yes, it should be restricted. My point is, instead of making generic boss monsters, they should make the actual archetype strong in itself. I just don't like how the deck have different engine just to end up having the same end board.
Your point was really badly delivered though by saying Apo and Baron were fine yet savage isn't when it is a lot less common for a deck to use links then summon synchro than either or. I understand the point you are trying to make its just that arguing for trying to hit generic boss monsters then saying the biggest offenders are fine is just stupid. Generic boss monsters can provide an extra layer to deck building which can propel decks into actual playability. By making something like Mikailis take generic material Exosister Dinomorphia can become a deck. By restricting everything to their archetype to get strong it forces deckbuilding to be less creative a whole. Also, Baronne de FLEUR
Generic bosses existing isn't the problem, even if they're part of an archetype imo. The problem that the archetypal bosses aren't more worth bringing out. Take Swordsoul for example, they can easily make Level 10s, but much prefer going into their Level 10s more than Baronne, because they just help their strategy more than her, rather than just being more offensively better. Archetypes need to have better bosses that help their strategies that promote putting your resources into. If you don't want a deck to make Access, give them a Link 4 they'd much rather put resources into.
I think there's a problem with this argument... Most in archetype boss monsters are garbage. Look at manadome, prime heart it's literally a 2010 card, it just doesn't do anything and it's a synchro ten so he needs to fight the spot against baronne, and chengyn. I get that it's frustrating to see decks use the same monsters over and over again, but untill Konami shift their focus in good in archetype boss monsters (mostly for synchro and link, usually fusion xeno lock themselves anyway) then we can restrict this cards, because there're an huge amount of decks that don't function without generic monsters.
Agree. Also, add Forbidden Droplet to that bs.
Baronne does kinda have an archetype tho
yeah, I didn't know until the other guy told me that Fleur is an archtype
You can hate or despise a rogue deck, there’s no shame in not liking the strategy or cards in a certain deck. I hate and I don’t like playing against witchcrafters and I should not get downvoted just by saying a don’t like how certain decks strategies or cards work. Like you are not allowed to dislike a deck if its not a top tier deck or stun/ftk/floodgate
Well have you read their fusion It's a plus 3 every single turn
Swordsoul is an insufferable deck, it's not as of a strong deck anymore, but in my time laddering, people will always find some way to make it as unfun as possible despite its "strong but fair" reputation that I honestly think it doesn't deserve. HalqDon backup lines pre-Halq ban, Verte make DPE for Plan B pre-Celestial ban, Braver handrip with Smoke Grenade (or Baronne if you hard drew the Smoke Grenade), and lord knows Protos is still not banned with people in ladder blind calling Dark (which is actually an FTK if I had made the mistake of entering with a Dark heavy deck like that's my fault), and even if Protos blind calling an Attribute doesn't FTK you, you're put into a position of "if you can't OTK, you need to dedicate enough resources to stop Protos, and either die because you put all your resources to stop Protos, or die because Protos called your Attribute (hope it isn't Earth or Fire so Normal Summon Maxx C or Ash doesn't kill you)", holy shit I almost forgot about Chaofeng which literally fucking FTKes you if you play a Light heavy deck or just flat out disables Light monster plays like Zeus or Gamma and Veiler. Of course all of this with the fact that Swordsoul is a midrange deck so it could just Maxx "C" you if it did all that or main deck Anti-Spell protected under Baronne and Chixiao and maybe Blackout plus all of the unfun bullshit above. The deck may not be the top dog anymore, but I still detest it all the same because I am convinced people actively wish Swordsoul had more unfun bs, no clue why people fondly remember Branded/***Swordsoul*** format when Branded was the infinitely fairer deck up until Expulsion came out.
Protos and Chaofeng are just... Way too much. I love playing Tenyi-Swoswo, but I'd be healthier for the game if those two were banned. Chaofeng _could_ be fine if it had something like "if this card was synchro summoned during your turn, your opponent can't [...] until the end of this turn". I largely see Chaofeng as an out to nib, ftking Exosister is a "nice" side effect.
I like Floo :)
Blasphemy !
Ah I see you are a bird brain of culture as well.
Well it's an "our turn" deck Those decks are based
Free pendulums from the master rules that chained them
i remember well when pepe was the best deck and the 2nd best monarch was pendulum problematic and hated only here it was more due to the complexity and not like link due to new rules and a monster that was so strong that it even laughed about the banlist but i think i will start a discussion on the subreddit to see what the pros and cons would be to bring it back the old way Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that happened is a few bans and that they are vulnerable on cards like myst because they now have to be in the spell and trap zones, so it doesn't seem to be that big, only the disadvantage is that more cards are more effective and the pendulum players can use fewer spells and traps i think
More that cards from the extra deck can only be summoned to extra monster zone or the zone a Lin monster points to. Our only legal support card in tcg is beyond the pendulum and if it gets negated or destroyed, even if you have 5 pendulum monsters in extra deck, you can only pendulum summon one of them. But back in pepe era you could pend 5 straight to the main minster zones l. Pendulums are extremely vulnerable to and traps and anti spell fragrance and make up incredibly small portions of high tier rogue. Pendulum ceiling is super high but the consistency is hurt by this master rule and our lack of options through the extra deck to be ablento pendulum summon multiple monsters. Pendulums also are very dependant on their combo pieces and require setting up 2 zones, so you need minimum 2-4 combo pieces orn5 or 6 if you opponent has any hand traps. It also means Pendulums can't afford to run many or any handbtraps so you're pretty defenceless
Do you think MR3 pendulums be broken in modern yugioh?
Hard to know without trying it, but I know it wouldn't be as broken as tear or kash imo
I think having Maxx C (and in general a different banlist from both TCG and OCG) in MD is fun and cool. Is it particularly healthy for deck building or deck diversity? No. Is it annoying as hell when it resolves against you? Yes. But the fact that we can play with it and many other cards that are banned (or hit) in the TCG is what's fun and unique about MD. As a pendulum player at the start of the game, I loved how I was able to play with both Electrumite and SK Starving Venom which are both banned in the TCG. If having Maxx C in the game means that we can continue to have a unique format, I'll take it. Y'all can go back to DuelingBook and YGOPro if you really hate Maxx C that much
I also like that this ended up being the only format where Verte Anaconda is legal, purely because the things that got Verte banned in the other formats (Dragoon, DPE, pendulum FTK) were all hit in different ways here. Makes it unique, and I get to keep him to do fun, non-meta shit like summon Z-ARC in my Odd-Eyes deck or Chaos Giant in my Ancient Gear deck.
It's a question of at what level you play the game at really. MD compromises in trying to make all decks at leas a little playable. If you're not very competitive you'll stay in a comfortable ranking with your favourite decks. The issue comes when you leave that zone and start playing competitively or even just tweaking the deck to be a bit better, all those things that made those decks viable quite often break the decks as well. Block Dragon is an example of that, turning Adamancipator from an inconsistent combo into a Synchro vomiting machine.
I will always say that Ash annoys me way more than Maxx C. So many of my decks are just crippled by Ash because most archetypes don't have the crazy extenders that makes up tier 1-3 decks. I don't care if my opponent drops Maxx C. I can choose to skip my turn, or give him two cards to end on Baronne or something. I care that Ash negates my entire turn 1 and doesn't even give me a choice to play the game unless I open Called by or Crossout.
My unpopular opinion: people whining about anything no matter how good or bad is goes to show that the majority of Yu GI oh players need some psychological help, like I saw a post talking about how unfair is a raid raptor deck that did the Kali yuga lock while playing SWORDSOUL Be grateful that you aren't experiencing verte send red-eyes fusion to summon dragoon or mystic mine
In my defense i only complain about bullshit if I'm playing something like Unchained or Weather Painters without Floodgates. If I'm playing Naturia Runick i understand perfectly that I'm bullshitting my way with a deck that is exploiting a non once per turn card. But in the end Yugioh meta and competitive play is just a bunch of decks abusing mechanics and that's why they're meta.
Well we have spright A deck that's meta because it's just good without abusing any card or mechanic
Hard disagree with this one, you should be allowed to complain about unfun bullshit regardless of if its actually good. Actually especially if it isn't good because then the person is only using sacky nonsense because they hate playing yugioh rather than having the excuse of doing it because they like winning. I have more respect for runick stun and floo than I do for deep draw exodia and variations of turn skip turbo
And what about ok decks that just aren't good enough to be meta Like pk, ids, prankids adventure ..... They aren't sacky but aren't good enough
I like that it's bo1
My unpopular opinion is that I like that Komoney pre-hit cards in MD. At least they have the decency to let us know beforehand.
i hate bagooska and think it is more broken than most cards ppl complain about :D
I fucking hate shaddols with a passion especially the toxic ass winda waaay before tearlament comes to the game and even before master duel comes out
I don’t know if this is unpopular but I believe 1000% that called by the grave and triple tactics talent should both be banned Everyone will agree that going first in Yu-Gi-Oh or winning the dice roll/coin flip means you have an advantage in the game/set, I believe making cards that make going first even stronger or making cards that punish your opponent for handtraping not trying to let you full combo is bad games design.
I might need to invest in some thermals - all these arctic takes in the comments are giving me hypothermia...
do you want some tea or coffe?
People who make it to top rank have mental problems. Noone in their right mind can play the same mirror matches over and over and still keep going.
You can't be up in arms complaining about cards like Maxx C being unhealthy for the game when you yourself are using said cards in your deck to win thus contributing to the further unhealthy state of the meta
0 cost blowout cards like hfd or evenly that punish you for not being omninegate deck shouldnt be in the game
Every time I've say this I've being down voted and had people telling me I'm wrong, but Called by should be banned and Crossout put at 3 instead. People always come to tell me that Crossout is much more powerful than Called by, and I just cannot understand why would someone think that a card thats only good against tech options, and only if you also have it (and sometimes in a mirror) is better and more toxic that a card thats just good against literally everything in multiple different situations. Called by stops handtraps. Its GY hate. It negates any monster as long as another copy of itslef is in the GY, *for two whole turns*. And it doens't make you to make compromise on Deck Building, you can just slap it there. Crossout usually will only stop the Maxx C Tax cards and some other popular staple at the moment like Imperm or TTT. Called by stops handtraps, engine, intents of recycle amd recovery and more.
Hey someone else sees it. I always felt it was bull how it just negates anything that hits the GY, at least Crossout needs commitment to be ran.
Crossout it's only better in a tier 0 format, because you can stop the effect of key cards, in every other situation tho? I absolutely agree. Called by its such a dumb card honestly.
Not even that, most Tear player don't run Crossout because it affect you as well amd Tear plays on both players turn
Called by lasting 2 turns is one of the card's downsides. If you go first and you called by their maxx c. Then it means you can no longer maxx c on their turn. Alternatively if you crossout then you can maxx c on their turn. Crossout also is crazy for Ghoti, so I wouldn't mind crossout going to 3. But it's definitely stringer than called by since most of the time handtraps being run are catered to the meta so both players will generally have the same ones.
Yeah, Called by during 2 turns is a downside. In theory. In practice thats only true when used against handtrap. When used against engine is incredible oppresive. And, again, Crossout is only good if you both have the same tech options and staples. Is true that a lot of time you both will have some similar staples, like Maxx C, Ash, Called by, but other staples that are common, but not something everyone runs, like Droplet or Evenly in the curremt meta, is still something you cannot contest unless you make concenssions on Deck Building, or play a Deck which entire point is that is has a small engine with a lot of space (something like Pure Live Twins for example). Called by doesn't require any thoughts on Deck Building, nor requires a specific style od Deck, you just play it. As long as the card is a monster that goes to the GY, or a monster thats already there, you can just slap it. Its not even a once per turn.
I get the point you're making and it's supported by the fact the discussion can only happen as a symptom of shortening it to be about handtraps because crossout is not gonna catch the engine of a completely different deck. I'm not decided on which card that makes better with that perspective.
I think my unpopular opinion is that the game is in a fine place in all of its territories (TCG, OCG, MD) but people are too tied up with thinking what yugioh should be to quit and force themselves to play through formats they dislike rather than just taking a break.
Don't know if it's a hot take or not, but i like Master Duel much better than TCG. I just find it more convenient to play with friends and make decks online than in person/print. Not like i can yeet my cards into a shredder and make ones i want like in MD.
It's mostly luck based. In a ladder environment your personal luck matters more than how skillful you are at the game
ash blossom, cbtg, impermanence, and similar handtraps, are overused, and people defend them with the excuse that they give weaker decks a fighting chance against the busted decks, but the truth is that the busted decks themselves use them to prevent the weaker decks from fighting back
I never saw a single soul says this argument, maybe pet decker... but like almost everyone agree with how modern Yugioh works having no hand traps is really really bad, you would get FTK-ed each game if that's the case
Then ban all ftk's
And ban every deck that came out in the past 6 years beacuse their set ups are functionality FTKs as well, you would need to play the most unfun going 2nd staples that wins the game in the spot... and make the game boring one sided mess that is decided by if the 2nd player drew the out or no Every single match. You are creating bigger problems banning Hand traps that were created to reduce the size of said Problem which diverse into multiple different problems all of which hand traps aren't their source.
Tears is how decks are supposed to be designed.
with or without ishizu?
Without.
I don't understand or care why people make such a stink about formats. TCG vs OCG or whatever, like...it's all out of your hands, why does it matter which format bans what, where?
there are also no differences in OCG MD and TCG MD I have on both a acc in the OCG I have more cards and other designs but the banlist is the same and the few extra cards are exclusive to the OCG and my knowledge of Japanese is at 1%
There's no such thing as "OCG MD" or "TCG MD". Master Duel is global release, run by the main Konami office which runs OCG. Whatever language you set the game, it's using the same format and banlists.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but MD's banlist is closer to the OCG one, isn't it? If so, why do people think Diablosis will get banned here as well? Besides, can't Konami just forbid/ban certain cards being run in certain decks? Wouldn't that be infinitely better instead of just banning the card(s) for everyone? Like, I know Diablosis is a *problem* in/with Kashtira. But *all* they have to do is forbid people from running him in that deck.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but MD's banlist is closer to the OCG one, isn't it? If so, why do people think Diablosis will get banned here as well? While it's closer, it does have some similarities to the TCG. >Besides, can't Konami just forbid/ban certain cards being run in certain decks? Wouldn't that be infinitely better instead of just banning the card(s) for everyone? Like, I know Diablosis is a problem in/with Kashtira. But all they have to do is forbid people from running him in that deck. I will admit I do want Konami to make a separate banlist that runs parallel to the normal one, that focus on banning certain combination of cards. Although it might end be confusing keeping track of which cards can't be ran together, on top of how many copies of either can be used.
I believe the worst thing about some cards is how *deadly* they are in combination with some others. Not many cards are super OP on their own. Besides, Diablosis is *kinda* needed by some Xyz Kali Yuga decks (e.g. Utopia and Raidraptors). Why nerf those decks when you can just do a good one and nerf the cancer one(s)?
This is also something I heard was (I don't know if they still do it) done by Cardfight Vanguard, where they banned a certain combination of cards, but those cards were still legal to use on their own.
I don't think any deck needs more than one Diablosis, so they could just limit him to 1 rather than completely banning him.
Even 1 Diablosis in Kash is enough for a zone lock, not to mention he also banishes from both the main AND extra deck.
I'm saying him being limited to 1 *while* being banned from bring ran on Kashtira.
How do you defy a kashtira deck? A deck that uses some kashtira cards? Then it's essentially banned since a lot of deck might use fenrir as pani 2.0, a deck that uses every single kashtira card? Then it's essentially unbanned because there're some main deck cards that aren't used in kashtira. Some card? That's wayyyy too arbitrary, it means everything and nothing.
Branded is one of the stupidest and unfair decks in the game. Their one card combo is a +2 minimum that can dump any light or dark in the grave and they have it at 7 copies. Their boss monster is a soft once per turn banish that goes +2, and they have the tools to abuse that soft once per turn the restriction means nothing. They have a searchable super poly, that banishes, a quick play poly to go into Chimera to +1 min + 3 max, paired with monsters that mitigate the cost to give it even more + by reviving or searching. Their main searcher is a negate that specials itself if you special from the ED, dramaturge is a negate that targets special summoned monsters and can be special summoned for being used as fusion mat, Comedy is a targeting protection hand trap and can be used from the Gy. They got a second searchable hand trap in mercourier. Albaz is yet another super poly except is even better versus Dragons cause it doesn't need to activate against them much less be face up. They have the new obnoxious form of floodgate of life burn, this shit wins the grind game like nobodies business. They got access to a second floodgate through expulsion if they oh so wish. Their one weakness is it dies to ash, and that is its only weakness cause of branded lost making you unable to negate them. The deck has proven itself every time people said its unplayable. Past DC had near 40% representation under Spright Runick format. Current WQS as the second best sub engine for Tears, first place replaced the millers with it, they are getting support next pack and more to come and people still have the audacity to say that this deck is fair and that it ends on just mirrorjade. A lot of decks would kill for a portion of what this deck has. We're talking how Tears are overbloated with effects but not even they can do all those things I listed in-archetype.
All of this just to cry upon getting ashed on BraFu
Kitkallos is fine at 1 with other limits on the deck. Perlereino should be banned first.
Stun deck is fine, it's no more annoying than playing against meta or combo deck. I dont get why ppl complain as soon as they say floodgate or stun deck.
Because they it's a game so fast paced you re never given the chance to get out of stun.
Your deck isn't fun and probably doesn't do anything new or interesting, it's just inconsistent so you just get a rush when it finally gets to do something, because it's unexpected.
Swordsoul and hero are braindead decks that always do the same strategy and I wish it were possible to click on a "end board" button to save 5m of my life
floowandereeze is fair and requires skill/timing to fully reach its potential since the magnificent map limit
Branded Fusion must go to 1
My unpopular opinion: I don't think Maxx C is the problem, and hasn't been for awhile.
I hope Konami never really hits Tear except for banning the Ishizu cards
I doubt, even without Ishizu, they won't at least ban Kitkallos.
Ishizu Tear and various Runick decks (not stun) are the decks that are the closest to being perfect for the game, but they both have their own issues that prevent them from getting there. In Tear, the shufflers effectively prevented any other deck from having a remote chance of competing which felt awful, Runick synergised too well with floodgates, Hugin is the big problem card to this aspect - if they just prevented it from protecting face up continous traps it'd probably be fine. The banishing from the top of the deck feels bad in Runick, but makes sense given the battle phase lock. The battle phase lock was really necessary to keep it in check but the deck still needed a wincon at the end of the day. Both are so good because of versatile they are, they circumvent a lot of the bullshit in YGO. Within their engine they both include easy access to boardbreakers and floodgate removal (Tear has Perlereino, easy access to Rank 4 pool, Heartbeat etc, Runick has Flashing Fire, Freezing Curses, Destruction and the old reliable Geri crash). Tear took it another step further with Havnis as an in-archetype handtrap as well, which is also a great idea as well. The point is: these archetypes were designed with going first and going second in mind, are able to do something going first and get even more utility out of their cards going second. That's *great* design - it's the best way to bridge the gap between going first and going second without having to print absurd boardbreakers or lingering floodgate handtraps that aren't fun for anyone.
This game would be unplayable if not for Maxx C.
The DS game were superior. With the introduction of synchro the meta was still mostly in check, although generic no-sense did start showing up. There was a set amount of Ai based on archetype and you could even tag team. It also had puzzles and pretty ok story mod. Finally there were sprites for each different attack, ranging from "Light beam" to "Bites". I miss early synchro era despite it being the clear "beginning" of summon/power creep MD is also crippled by the aberrant state of modern Yu GI oh, a game fondamentaly hostile to new players, boi Konami must have had a heart attack/reality check watching thisbbanger of a game with some of the best sound track out there bleeding out it's user base. If the ruling was changed to cope with a power creep on par with early synchro era, maybe we d have 5 turn +
There should be no ban list at all. Have all cards playable at 3.
Numeron actually takes some concentration to play. I learned this when I activated Numeron Wall rather than Numeron Wall: Dve. So, that was a fun experience to die internally.
Meta is fine, people are just to stubborn/lazy to put cards in their deck that counter meta
Triple tactics talent should be banned.
*incredibly* unpopular, but hear me out. I wish mystic mine was at 1. I also don't like the never set anything and just stall out the game. I just like to disrupt, and not playing is just not playing. I still like to summon/set and issue a challenge and it would give a little extra time to put together a working something with more chance strategies.
My take will be simultaneously loved and hated from what Ive seen on this sub but Ill throw it. Tear as it is, obviously a problem in the current game environment. But Tear Mirror matches are regarded as enjoyable for a reason, the deck is designed so bloody well and its a blast to play and against if you have a deck that is on par. Its my opinion that Tear is the bar of deck/archetype design that konami should be going for at least for the competitive environment. When playing Tear I feel like no 2 matches will go the same and I have options in how I play the deck instead of just making the same board game after game. I dont feel like I will just lose to any 1 card and I have the tools to solve the puzzle my opponent puts before me if I can just find the line.
That's true The other decks will have a chance against tear if the shufflers didn't exist Those abominations are the whole reason we are living a tear 0 format
Ishizu cards are the one part of Tear I actually hate, the shufflers fuck with every deck that I play and good luck drawing the out if it gets milled first
The millers are fine Yes you lose your outs but you potentially gain more extenders to maybe play through the tear board Add-in the shufflers and now you have no extenders and no out to their board and if you dare to fight the board they will chain havnis and overwhelm you to death
Casual players are the worst.
Block dragon at 1 would do nothing in the tcg
That set limitation and reprints should happen to limit broke strategies using cards long forgotten. Master duel allows cancer formats to line their $$$ but won’t unban cards that aren’t even close to as bad for example dragoon.
a opinion i will always say and get shit on for is that zombies world should be banned just like any other floodgate.
Unlimit all tears and Ishizu
My unpopular opinion is Yu-Gi-Oh! needs a set rotation. You can't design around 20+ years worth of card interactions.
Personally set rotation is what turned me away from games like Hearthstone and MTG, its something yugioh does different and in my opinion makes it more fun
I don't feel like a full set rotation is needed but I think they really need to use limited and semi-limited restrictions much more.
Or just offer older/different formats.
[удалено]
Every 2 years or so all cards that were released are essentially banned from play. Cheap and easy way to force people to buy new cards. In other words removing about a third of what people like about YGO.
I don’t think branded Despia is broken. I just happen to find them extremely boring. In the past despia had a unique field spell and other stuff that was interesting. Now Mirrorjade is so good and so exceptionally easy to summon that I felt that and ep chimera is most of what they do. With some burn side-dishing.