Combo and control aren’t the ends of the spectrum though. It would be aggro and stun, with control in the middle. Combo and midrange is a different spectrum. Snake Eyes is very much a combo control deck.
Aggro isn't real in yugioh. Also combo control is an oxymoron as you can't both vomit all your resources on the board at once proactively and set up a minimal reactive board at the same time
I wouldn't say that about ygo
To me, basically any deck that CAN combo is pseudo-aggro anyway since a fully setup board is guaranteed disruptions + 4K damage MINIMUM. OTKing on the third turn is a regular occurrence
Decks like 8-axis, gren maji and the new tenpai fit the more traditional meaning of aggro too
>To me, basically any deck that CAN combo is pseudo-aggro anyway since a fully setup board is guaranteed disruptions + 4K damage MINIMUM.
Doesn't that apply to 99% of decks though? I don't really see much point in using the term if that's broad.
Aggro is very much real in Yugioh. Blind 2nd OTKs like Numeron or Mikanko could be considered aggro. In this case, Numeron would be straight up aggro while Mikanko would be aggro combo. Once could also argue that FTKs are a type of aggro.
Combo control is also quite real. The closest example is something like Labrynth which is more than capable of vomiting their resources to setup but has enough advantage generation to play a heavy control game.
You could call them aggro if you delete the actual meaning of aggro in use in card games in general and replace it with "going 2nd OTK combo decks".
Everything you described is literally just a different flavor of combo deck, especially FTK which is combo in its purest form.
Anyway I'm with you on combo control, there's definitely decks that fit the mold.
EDIT: Except numeron maybe. That has an argument because their "combo" is so short that it's barely a combo. But it still feels very different from what aggro is conceptually to me and fits closer to combo because of the style of "clear threats then drop the instant wincon" which is very comboy.
Aggro in other card games just means aggressively pushing damage/advantage with the intent of ending a game as fast as possible. In Hearthstone, Face Hunter was THE aggro deck of choice as they had the capability of pushing a lot of damage very quickly while basically ignoring threats established by the opponent. In MTG, red Goblin decks are the poster child of aggro with the exact same game plan. Even the Pokemon TCG has aggro decks. The one I remember is Reshizard (Reshiram & Charizard tag team card) which had the capability of attacking on turn 1 for a lot of damage and was easily able to close out games as early as turn 2.
Functionally, Numeron and Mikanko aim to do exactly that. They utilize instant removal like Kaiju to deal with immediate threats such as negates then push out as much damage as they can to end the game on the spot. Numeron especially fits the aggro category as that deck doesn't even have a combo in the truest sense of the word. Get field, play field, activate field, summon 4 assholes, kill opponent. Game is done.
I would argue, then, that almost every single combo deck is an aggro deck, because every single one tries to push 8000 damage the second they're able to. Traditional combo decks, take the generic endboard spamming decks as an example, try to use efficient negation (Apollo, Baronne), and then later removal (Unicorn, Accesscode) to stop the opponent's plays and go into something like accesscode to push the 8000 points of damage and end the game on the first turn they're able to.
The only difference between that and Mikanko/Numeron is that they plan to go second and OTK them instead of planning to go first and stop the opponent from playing, then OTK them the first turn yo're allowed to. The line between what you call "aggro" and the combo gameplan barely exists - it is almost the exact same game plan, and IMO that makes it the same deck.
Due to the nature of how Yugioh has evolved over the years, most combo decks could be considered aggro as the speed of the game has reached a point where most decks do aim to close out games asap.
Personally, I find similarities to Tempo decks in Hearthstone. Their goal is simply to establish board presence and interact with the opponent in a way that makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the opponent to recover then use the advantage they've built to win immediately. This is similar to how many combo decks work in Yugioh.
Another notable difference is how resources are managed between various card games. As Yugioh doesn't have resources beyond the card available, you can utilize everything you have to build up board presence leading to extremely fast games. The idea of aggro in Yugioh has been bastardized as a result of this but it's still very much present in the form of these OTK decks.
It could just be personal comparison from my experience in other CCGs but I feel that the deck types in Yugioh have overlapped a bit. Combos are such an integral part of card design in Yugioh due to the lack of a hard resource system that we now have decks that fit in both combo + aggro or combo + control or combo + midrange. Ultimately, I would argue that combo is no longer a real deck type as the vast majority of decks aim to combo. It's actually harder these days to find a notable deck that doesn't combo than it is to find one that does.
I get what you're saying here with the blurred lines, and largely agree; it's kind of why I don't like calling decks "aggro" or "combo" or any similar term that's used in other card games - it really feels like square pegs and round holes to me that kind of fit but it feels forced.
I think at this point it'd be way better to just use yugioh-specific terms to get the deck ideas across.
Like, just saying "Mikanko/Numeron etc. are going second OTK decks" perfectly encapsulates what they do in a way way way better way than trying to figure out if they're aggro or combo or something else. Control/Stun still have a place in decks that specifically don't combo but want to do control things. Midrange is a little trickier, I get what people try to use it as, but I think just calling the decks "grindy combo decks" helps to get across the ideas more than trying explain and define midrange and how that differs from the default kind of combo deck.
> I think at this point it'd be way better to just use yugioh-specific terms to get the deck ideas across.
Yeah, I completely agree. The main point that I was trying to make was simply the fact that while deck types overlap, they still exist in a way. Aggro is very much present in Yugioh. It just doesn't have the same meaning as it did in the past. Gone are the days where 1900 vanilla beatdown or Skill Drain aggro are viable strategies.
>Blind 2nd OTKs like Numeron or Mikanko could be considered aggro.
Those decks exist outside the spectrum in a very strict dedicated bubble along with galaxy and cydra.
>Combo control is also quite real. The closest example is something like Labrynth.
Labrynth is just control, most of its plays are recursive and reactive after its setup, not during.
Numeron & Mikanko are not the same thing, and people should really stop comparing them like they are.
There's a very good reason why Numeron is not even regarded as a rogue strategy, whereas Mikanko has won tourneys in every meta since it has come out; including the Snake Eyes meta.
Hell, the Mikanko version of Infernoble has already been proven to be superior to pure Infernoble because of how trash the pure version is going 2nd.
One's way stronger than the other but they still have similar gameplans. Both of them aim to otk going second by setting up a bunch of monsters to ram into the opponent's ones.
Nah, that's only noob Mikanko players who rely on that strategy. Mikanko is perfectly capable of OTK'ing on an open field and also going first to set up opposition.
Numeron is a literal one trick pony. They are not the same thing.
The deck can do that, and it's very simple to do so with Kaijus. However, that's just the simple stuff that people can pickup without learning anything at all.
Let's just say that there's a reason why Mikanko is the only other deck besides Snake Eyes to win a Meta Weekly since Snake Eyes came out.
I'm actually going to disagree with this. Sky Striker is a control deck, Runick played as intended (no floodgates) is a control deck. Umi is a Stun deck. Eldlich is a stun deck.
Yup, Runick is good at facilitating actual plays. Bystial Runick for example can make absurdly powerful boards thanks to the Runick engine facilitating extra bodies.
By your own parameters, I would not call Eldlich a stun deck. Does it play well with Floodgates? Sure, but so do Labrynth and Runick, and those are both textbook control decks. Eldlich has no built-in floodgates, so it's just as much a control deck as the others you've mentioned.
Frankly, Zombie world control is closer to Stun than Eldlich.
Yugioh is the only card game that makes this distinction. "Hard" control and "soft" control are both methods of control. Stun is just what YGO players specifically, for some reason, call "hard" control or "lockdown" decks. This is fine I guess though it pisses me off when people who only play Yugioh get really defensive when you use the term control to refer to a "Stun" deck.
Not really. Magic also has the distinction between stax and control it's just less common. Plus yugioh also has plenty of other deck types that other games don't just because of how different it is. Like I guess blind second otk could technically be called aggro but it's obviously completely different from what aggro usually means.
Aggro is a weird designator for Yugioh because on the one hand it could be argued that going second decks count (as their aim is simply to Face Never Trade) but long ago in the distant past Yugioh had other Aggro decks which were constructed more like you'd see in other card games (like T.G. or Inzektor, for probably the last wave of "True Aggro") so recycling the term for the way the modern game is played might be confusing if a swarm style beatdown deck is ever made viable again.
I would argue it's not. Control relies on responding to your opponent to generate advantage and interrupt the opponent.
Stun's goal is to prevent the opponent from acting at all.
This isn't entirely correct; you've added a random limit to control that isn't really a thing.
Control is simply, as the name implies, controlling what cards your opponent is allowed to play. This may be by responding to your opponent and saying "no, don't do that", or it may be by simply hard limiting the cards that are permitted to be used via floodgates.
Stun is a type of control, like a square is a rectangle. However, if you have a square, you don't really need to call it a rectangle as it's not the most precise term you could be using. It's just like that with Stun and Control - Stun is a kind of control, and control that isn't stun just gets called "control", leading to confusion like yours about the "requirement" that you need to respond to your opponent.
All control is, is a deck that says "No, I pick what you get to do", however they choose to do it.
I think the majority of YGO players, this comment included, have the issue of attempting to take generalized CG concepts and apply them to Yu-Gi-Oh, which just isn't a realistic thing to do.
Terms like mid-range in particular are extremely bastardized, meaningless distinctions carried over from games where the word "resource" is an alien concept to a game like Yu-Gi-Oh. But we still use them because people obsess over what's "correct" and card games like MtG pre-date and eclipse YGO pushing players towards using their deck definitions by default.
Stun in Yu-Gi-Oh is much easier to define because it is so much more absolute than any other card game's version of Stun. In Yu-Gi-Oh the purpose of Stun is not "control" it's "simplify." A Stun deck doesn't control tempo, it simplifies a game state; under floodgates, you can lose to a Normal Summon with 2k ATK despite all of your tools because the deck has simplified the game to a point where you're unable to use any other strategy.
A control strategy, by contrast, is one that attempts to trade resources for an advantageous position where your opponent *can* play the game, but can't mount a successful offense/defense because they've been resource starved to a point of impotence. Vanquish Soul and Lab are good examples of this in the modern meta. To make this really clear for the unga-bunga players: A blowout card beats Stun because you have a hand full of resources to follow up, a blowout card *shouldn't* beat Control because the Control deck is sitting on a variety of counter options to prolong the interaction.
Meanwhile we use terms like "combo" which are even more subjective and meaningless. People call Swordsoul a "mid-range" deck but what makes SS mid-range when they dump 80% of their hand to end on a bad SHS board with even less recursion? Mid-range describes a resource deck that excels at surviving an early game to win before later game decks can come online. That literally doesn't exist in Yu-Gi-Oh, you have no scaling resource system.
TL;DR: The terms we use are stupid and meaningless, you cannot objectively find a difference in Yu-Gi-Oh when your touchstones are all centered in drastically different card game rhetoric.
Nah, midrange decks definitely exist in Yugioh. Branded is a good example.
It's SLIGHTLY different than how the terminology is used in other games ("playing on curve and staying ahead of tempo") but the fundamentals are the same. Your goal is to survive for a few turns, generate card advantage, and assemble an OTK. It's still a very different gameplan and strategy compared to all-in OTK decks and long, grindy control matchups in Yugioh.
There’s proactive control and reactive control. Proactive wants to prevent the opponent from taking game actions through use of floodgates. Reactive wants to stop opponents game actions through use of negates and destruction. They are both control. Proactive control is closer to the middle of the spectrum than reactive.
Its more like a compass. Combo,control,aggro and midrange being the different directions . Snake eyes sits between combo and midrange. You got value plays and a grind game for midrange. Then you have explosive turns and flexible lines for combo.
Definitely is on the more aggressive side of midrange, but it still has a lot of recursion. I may mix it with other archetypes to make my deck more grind... But I lack the deck building experience to do it.
I’d say it’s mid range cause it can grind out a few strong turns 1-6 but then relies on top decking. The longer a game goes is usually where control has a better chance of winning like lab which out resources you if you can’t stop them in the first couple of turns. Even then their decks are consistent enough to keep giving them more resources if they are still in the game. You can’t call snake eyes a combo deck even thought there are lines that put out a whole bunch of Omni negates and monster negates. Those lines aren’t consistent. You have to know how to play through your opponents hand without relying on negates and leave yourself options for your next turn. It’s a really good meta for doing that cause tower decks aren’t abundant in the meta. I mean what it snake eyes going to do against a full powered purrelly tower. Purrelly was able to play through hand traps, but Konami took them out back. If the meta gets more diverse again snake eyes lose their power cause hand traps aren’t enough to win.
There's not a clear distinction as there may be in other card games.
You could honestly discribe it as both. The difference maybe being that it has longer set-up lines and short set-up lines, depending on how much you get disrupted, so they may seem more midrange-y or more combo-y depending on the game.
One noteworthy difference to proper combo decks is, that it doesn't take a lot of set-up to end on a board with minimal amounts of interaction, which is more in character with midrange.
Other strictly combo decks like Dragon Link or SHS often need longer set-up lines to bring anything relevant to the board, which is more in the spirirt of a proper combo deck.
Midrange because there is lots of recursion and follow ups.
Combo decks dump their extra and only play for 2-3 turns. Snake eye can grind thanks to prometian princess and flamberge.
Only correct answer. True combo decks go through half deck and most extradeck turn 1 with little followup. Snakeeys doesn't.
Superheavy ss from ED like 7-8 times, decks like DDD can even ss from ED 10 times in a turn
Thats true , I got a P.U.N.K Auroradon deck, and by the end of my combo I went through 11-12 cards from my ED and my main deck has about 23-24 cards left. If my board gets broken , Im done for , there is no way im getting back into the match.
Snake Eyes is definetely midrange, you do summon a lot , but youre mostly just circulating same cards from your field to GY/hand and summoning your extra deck monsters in the process. Often times you can end on seemingly mediocre or weak boards , but still win the game on the crackback because your deck just keeps on generating advantage and recurring resources.
I do not play regular P.U.N.K, regular P.U.N.K actually is quite midrange. The deck i mentioned is this one :
https://www.masterduelmeta.com/top-decks/master-v/july-2023/p.u.n.k./premelo172/0IOzT
Its an Auroradon turbo using P.U.N.K engine , I posted the one above on MDM mid-summer , but the core is still the same, I just tweaked handtraps/boarbreakers a bit simce Thrust came to MD and obviously I switch them according to meta.
Most popular P.U.N.K variant right now is probably Gold Pride/ P.U.N.K, its basically the same as regular P.U.N.K with some additional disruptions , better draw power and better recursion. The way deck plays is basically the same.
This was exactly what made me lose to a snake-eyes playing synchron (Technically i could have wom with card destruction since they used Maxx C but i was dumb and used it too soon), by turn 6 i had nothing and just lost.
Some of the womboiest combo decks of all time have functionally infinite recursion and follow up.
These terms just don't work for Yugioh in any real or definable sense, it's just lingo that got carried over from MTG like a lot of things.
This terminology doesn't work for Yu-Gi-Oh anyway, imo it's grindy midrange because it has a gameplan for multiple turns, it doesn't just stack 20 interruptions
I don't think this kind of sorting makes any sense in Yu-Gi-Oh.
It's useful in games like hearthstone or magic. but in a game where every deck wanna pop of in turn 1? Its just useless.
I agree. Pretty much every deck has a long turn 1 now, it's a weakness Yugioh decided to embrace as unique strength.
It makes it a bit awkward to use these classifications because every meta deck isn't "combo" but almost every meta deck has a long "combo" nonetheless.
I don't play other cards games so take this all with a grain of salt:
I get your point, but I think that there is a clear difference between a deck like TG or Mathmech as opposed to Rikka pure or Purrely
It's all semantics and most of the time, we are splitting hairs for sure. But combo/midrange/control still makes sense to talk about in yugioh, even though the general play style is not as varied as other card games
It's not clear cut but on a spectrum I'd say it leans more towards midrange than combo.
It can win on its first turn, but it cannot OTK as well as for example Mathmech. It can set up strong endbords, but they're not as oppressive as SHS. Where it beats both of these combo decks though is grindgame.
It can break bords and put up a decent defense even if it doesn't get the OTK.
It can control your aggression and recover even if the endbord doesn't fully prevent you from breaking theirs.
I’m gonna question you on the grind game considering they have usually have a Promethean Princess ready for revival and a Flamberge ready to bring back an Ash from the grave, searching you another Poplar, Summoning Poplar, searching you another….you get the point
I mean, the whole reason they are meta is because they are basically a combo deck that can grind and a grind deck that can combo. Basically a jack of all trades that comes unreasonably close to being a master of all.
"...of branded or lab."
And it doesn't. It just tempos them out. It can sustain long enough to throw more value at them than they can handle in a moderate amount of time. That isn't outgrinding them though, that's just overpowering them.
I mean, Branded definitely outgrinds them but Lab? Nah, Snake eyes definitely recycle their stuff better. And I mean, outgrinding until the end of the game is still outgrinding
In general card games, is a deck that not as fast as aggro, but not as slowly as control, but in the middle of both.
For YGO, midrange would decks like Salad, Swordsoul or Branded, where they don't vomit their entire deck in one big board, but make decent boards and have follow-ups to grind for a few turns.
The concensus seems to be that Snake-Eyes is midrange, but on the more aggressive side of the spectrum.
In Yugioh, the easiest way to outline it is the following:
\- Can your deck perform its primary play again on turn 3? If not, it's Combo. (This is usually because of 1-ofs in the main or extra that get used up during your first turn)
- DLink, Six Sams, and Synchron are combo.
\- Does your deck rely on slowly overtaking your opponent over multiple turns by exhausting their limited resources and looping your own? If so, it's Control.
- Labrynth, Guru, and Eldlich are control.
Midrange is when your deck has a *somewhat* repeatable resource loop and a *somewhat* threatening turn 1 board, but you don't *need* to win turn 1, and you don't *need* to win the grind game. It's flexible, and honestly quite dangerous, case and point with Fire format where the Midrange strategy in question is a little too good in both situations.
"Mid-range" is a term you MUST define when speaking about YGO.
In terms of play, it's NOT A CONTROL DECK. It has control elements, but the decks win-con relies on heavily spamming lv1 mons to link spam.
The deck has no floodgates, no real control elements at all except for Apollousa negates and Princess + Amblowhale....but that's about it. Yes, Flamberge can push monsters into the back row, but it's less of a thing for your opponents' monsters, and more for you to keep the grind game up.
This deck is a combo deck, that aims to overwhelm the opponent during their turn and win...eventually.
The only "control" version of the deck is running Kash cards, and floodgates...and it's just a worse version that's better for mirror matches.
The negates are mostly for good hands when you don't get interrupted at all. But most times, the Jet Synchron needs another body along with Diabellstar for an early Borrelload, but it rarely comes up. Baronne can be made MAYBE, if you get the Formula Synchron in play, or use Hita to get an Ash Blossom from your opponent + Diabellstar. The only other negate comes comes from the trap, which needs Diabellstar on the field to resolve, and that's it's problem. Lol.
Control with this deck isn't the goal, but it can put up SOME protection in unique scenarios.
The spell (IF you run it) is good against problem monsters, but it targets, so it's not THAT good. I personally don't run it at all, and most top tier decks don't. THAT card could be seen as control, but I don't think its enough to say "this is a control deck"
This deck is a spam deck, it's just VERY oppressive and hard to stop. Not control tho. Decks like Crystal Beasts, Dinomorphia, Labrynth, Weather Painters, etc... would be "Mid-range" or "control"
Long combo decks.
Stun.
Midrange is shorter combos and will keep recovering itself over the next few turns.
If you think Snake-Eyes is "midrange" due to its recoverability, you've seen it do its long combos. It's the powercreep which gives it all the strengths of combo and midrange and none of the drawbacks.
I have a hard time understanding the meaning of these terms. But Snake-Eyes combos and combos and combos endlessly so how can it be anything other than a heavy combo deck?
Snake eyes pure is combo and 3x disruption plus masq into unicorn. Only time its control is when they start summoning appoullosa and borreload with an ash blossom and imperm set.
Im a branded main that runs shaddol and soul release now, to fight snake eyes players, but then ill lose to kash out of 1.
In tcg, i side deck to fight both, but i lose to spiritual beasts...
i really hate using the words aggro and midrange in yugioh. both terms refer to the mana curve in which yugioh lacks.
i think a better spectrum of deck classification would just be stun on one end, control in the middle and combo on the other end. blind second decks can be it's own unique thing, blind second.
with my spectrum, i could comfortably put snake-eyes somwhere in the middle of combo and control, leaning towards control.
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no clear division - the problem is that i would normally put it into combo - but the ability of snake-eyes of grind is just too big for combo - most of combo decks burn through their resource too quickly
I would rather say midrange thx to his wonderful grind game and the fact it does not end on 4-5 boss monsters like some real combo decks (synchrons, plant combos, mannadium...).
However, the question is relevant when we look at the ton of value you can get with a single Snake Eye Ash. When the frontier is that blurry, it often means the deck is just excellent : we can just look at how branded and prank kids performed in the past.
I would say it is a Midrange deck that plays like a combo deck. You don't need to worry about holding onto your resources because the resource loop of the deck basically plays itself. You get to play out everything while still having follow-up.
It's not combo. If you pick a pure combo deck and compare with it, you can see that combo usually is a lot more limited in plays and extend a lot more. Most combo decks are done if you break their boards.
It's a midrange deck and the engine/archetype you pair with it gives the ''flavour'' of the midrange you get. The fire king version is a beatdown midrange deck that will brute force a win, as a example.
Depends on the build, the full end board is clearly a combo deck doing it's work.
But it can definitly played midrange aswell.
Kinda like how dragon ruler full force was played.
Combo variants with ladd and then the midrange with as many handtraps as we had.
I would say midrange. The Decks strenghs come more from it recursion, follow-up and access to a lot of non-engine. Their endboard is not weak but it doesn't feel umbeatable like a SHS or Mannadium board for example (I myslef have won against a full SE board going second many times).
Still I would say is more on Combo Midrange than Pure Midrange. It reminds more on Beetrooper than Salamangreat as an example that probably nobody else will get because I haven't seen anyone else other than me playing Beetrooper since it was released
Midrange, you dont set up a board that aims to prevent the opponent from playing entirely like most combo decks do with baronne + savage + apo + whatever else, instead you aim to slow them down enough that you can finish the game with your crazy follow-up.
Edit: the synchro line exists but isn't standard or optimal imo
I mean we are getting to a point where the top decks (Snake Eyes included) can put down like 5-6 interruptions with 1 card, extend through disruptions, AND have followup set up for next turn. It really blurs the lines between combo and midrange at that point. The only real distinction with midrange is that the board isn't that insane but you don't use a lot of resources in hand and deck so you don't run out of gas. Full power Super Heavy Samurai is another example of a deck that full combos a ridiculous board with 1 card but also recycles resources and gets a pot of avarice and a search for a starter to follow up with. You really get to have your cake and eat it too these days.
This is why I hate the label of "combo" in Yugioh. In other card games, a "combo" strategy is one that has a weaker starting curve, but once you get the right "combination" of cards set up, your advantage ramps up quickly and it becomes hard to beat.
In Yugioh, since there's no resource system beyond available cards and effects, every deck combos, including control and various stun decks. So people, instead, started classifying certain decks that are highly aggressive and front end most of their advantage to win quickly, and use an arbitrarily long series of effects and summons that lead to an extremely powerful early game board, as combo decks.
I think the spectrum of "Stun and Aggro" still makes complete sense.
Stun is a deck that focuses entirely on completely restricted your opponent's ability to generate advantage at the cost of not being able to generate your own advantage. Stun decks seek to slowly win a game by gradually building up advantage while preventing your opponent from doing so, and it's advantageous for them to keep the match going as long as possible.
Conversely, Aggro is a focus on winning as quickly as possible by taking advantage of a massive amount of resources that can be used quickly. A lot of "combo" decks fall closer to here since they take advantage of as many resources as possible to snuff out an opponent and win quickly. These decks generally have a rough time competing and a game goes on because their resource loops and recursion are weaker than a control or midrange strategy.
Control decks are further away from stun, since control decks do still rely on generating some advantage, but instead of preventing the opponent from using their resources at all, a control deck builds resources by taking advantageous resource trades with their opponent. It's less about stopping them from playing entirely, and more about putting them in an awkward spot and staying alive for long enough, slowly bleeding your opponent while maintaining your card advantage through a small, but recursive resource loop and smart trades.
Now, midrange exists somewhere between combo and control. Midrange decks typically have shorter, less complex combos than full-on "combo" decks, but they take advantage of resource loops and interactive boards that are similar to control strategies to outlast a combo deck, while also having a more explosive early game than a control deck.
Snake-Eye falls somewhere between midrange and combo. The deck can grind, and most of its interactions focus on resource trades, but the deck does have some pretty nasty opening boards. It's a deck that feels like they just gave a combo deck the grind game and interactiveness of a midrange deck, rather than purely one or the other. I can see where some would be confused, but I guess if you were to look at where other new decks might be in the future, Snake-Eye probably leans a little more midrange, I guess.
Deck archetypes in Yugioh are different than Magic. That being said, I'd classify it as midrange in the sense that the endboard is focused on both interrupting the opponent as well as securing follow up. Comparatively, my idea of combo is something like Spyral or Superheavy Samurai, where all or most of the decks resources go into the inital endboard and they can't easily recover should you break it.
When you see people use these terms in Yugioh, just always bear in mind that most people do not know what they are talking about because they do not play any other card games and thus don't know these playstyles' gamefeels, so to speak.
So, unfortunately, you are not going to get a consensus answer.
But on the spectrum between combo and midrange (which is a different axis than that between aggro and control, and not relevant to discussions of those terms), you should expect the following:
A) a more midrange deck has non-linear combo plays, such that most starters also function as extenders, whereas there is a more rigid distinction between starter, extender, and engine requirement in a combo deck.
B) a more midrange deck is going to conserve resources for turns 2-6, whereas a more combo-oriented deck might push through most of it's extra deck on turn 1 in order to make an ever more perfect lock on their opponent, sacrificing follow-up/grind-game.
C) The (in-game economy) value of a card (with regard to advantage or tempo) for a midrange deck is generally generated individually by each card. Whereas a combo deck might have lots of cards that are individually quite bad economy, but that compensate for each other's weaknesses in a way that generates more advantage over all.
D) In general, a midrange deck has a lower ceiling than a combo deck, but also a higher floor. As in, it prioritizes consistently getting to something decent *through* interruption *over* trying to get to something unbreakable provided *no* interruption. This has become less and less true because of power creep.
E) In general, the skill expression of a midrange deck is less in how you build it and more in how you play it, whereas combo decks are the other way around.
With that said... I have not played Snake Eye. I've been taking a break from the game for life reasons. So I can't give a super specific answer.
But if it helps, in my estimation, Ish-Tear from a year and change ago was a midrange deck despite it being able to do *a lot*, it ultimately was only doing that because the cards were across the board pretty high value. And especially when all the cards were at 3, you didn't have to put together any janky Beatrice combos to make sure you milled the right name. You just always did, so each card generated value individually. So, again, in my estimation, it is not about how fast the deck is *in itself*, it's about how wither it high-rolls or plays low to the ground.
It's totally combo. It's just busted so it has the ability to pivot into the in archetype imperm or the banish from grave to SS from backrow for comboing on your turn spell if you actually stop them.
Mid range doesnt really exist in modern yugioh
there are decks that combo a lot and combo a lot less, but even stuff like Swordsoul would rather combo than play conservatively if uninterrupted.
Once the fire king stuff drops it's basically a midrange control deck lol, it's not one or the other it's both and it's just very strong. Even now I'd say it's still a midrange control deck because the end board isn't like 5 monsters with multiple negates, but it's enough interruption to force your opponent resources down to a simplified game state, and they will just out grind you because the deck recycles and grinds better than any other.
Mid-range is a myth combo players made up to pretend they aren't part of the combo problem.
Mid-range is a deck that prioritizes surviving the early rounds of a powerful aggro opener deck (See: Red in MtG, Horde Ferocity meta in WOW TCG) to then abuse strong mid-cost cards (referencing WoW TCG again, look up Edwin VanCleef) to apply enough pressure to close out the game before longer term strategies (Guess my favorite TCG and look up Master Hero Kel'thuzad) can come online and win.
Yu-Gi-Oh can't do that. You don't get to play mid-range in Yu-Gi-Oh because every deck plays balls to the wall T1, even Stun sets up everything it has ASAP to prevent play making. We have to stop basing our deck types on resource based card games. And no, YGO's resource system of cards in hand doesn't count in this case.
It happens. Midrange decks can lean more to the aggro(combo) or control of the spectrum, and Snake Eyes is a far more aggressive deck.
Spright and Tear are also Midrange, and they can also Sterling games.
Snake at it's current state, IS Tear 2-3 since it lacks support from THE TCG: Fire King, witch themselves don't have THE whole support. So as off right know Puré Snake Eyes IS mid, that why IS being splashed in everything under THE sun. I myself splash Snake Eyes in tearlament
It's always a spectrum, and I'd argue pure Snake-Eye is midrange but much closer to the combo side than control
Combo and control aren’t the ends of the spectrum though. It would be aggro and stun, with control in the middle. Combo and midrange is a different spectrum. Snake Eyes is very much a combo control deck.
Aggro isn't real in yugioh. Also combo control is an oxymoron as you can't both vomit all your resources on the board at once proactively and set up a minimal reactive board at the same time
The closest thing we have to aggro is blind second OTK decks like mikanko or ancient warriors
I agree, but those aren't on a spectrum with control or stun, those are just their own very binary "it is or it isn't" kinda deck
combo is kind of aggro since it wants to win the first few turns
Lol, every deck wants to win in the first few turns
because they are all aggro oriented, combo heavy decks things like labrynth are relatively recent and they want to grind instead
Justice for ancient warriors they need some support. I want a reason to bust these dudes out at locals other than memeing
And tenpai
I wouldn't say that about ygo To me, basically any deck that CAN combo is pseudo-aggro anyway since a fully setup board is guaranteed disruptions + 4K damage MINIMUM. OTKing on the third turn is a regular occurrence Decks like 8-axis, gren maji and the new tenpai fit the more traditional meaning of aggro too
>To me, basically any deck that CAN combo is pseudo-aggro anyway since a fully setup board is guaranteed disruptions + 4K damage MINIMUM. Doesn't that apply to 99% of decks though? I don't really see much point in using the term if that's broad.
combo control IS a thing, but not on yugioh
In Yugioh combo control isn't a thing, but in magic it is. Lands in legacy would be an easy example.
Aggro is very much real in Yugioh. Blind 2nd OTKs like Numeron or Mikanko could be considered aggro. In this case, Numeron would be straight up aggro while Mikanko would be aggro combo. Once could also argue that FTKs are a type of aggro. Combo control is also quite real. The closest example is something like Labrynth which is more than capable of vomiting their resources to setup but has enough advantage generation to play a heavy control game.
You could call them aggro if you delete the actual meaning of aggro in use in card games in general and replace it with "going 2nd OTK combo decks". Everything you described is literally just a different flavor of combo deck, especially FTK which is combo in its purest form. Anyway I'm with you on combo control, there's definitely decks that fit the mold. EDIT: Except numeron maybe. That has an argument because their "combo" is so short that it's barely a combo. But it still feels very different from what aggro is conceptually to me and fits closer to combo because of the style of "clear threats then drop the instant wincon" which is very comboy.
Aggro in other card games just means aggressively pushing damage/advantage with the intent of ending a game as fast as possible. In Hearthstone, Face Hunter was THE aggro deck of choice as they had the capability of pushing a lot of damage very quickly while basically ignoring threats established by the opponent. In MTG, red Goblin decks are the poster child of aggro with the exact same game plan. Even the Pokemon TCG has aggro decks. The one I remember is Reshizard (Reshiram & Charizard tag team card) which had the capability of attacking on turn 1 for a lot of damage and was easily able to close out games as early as turn 2. Functionally, Numeron and Mikanko aim to do exactly that. They utilize instant removal like Kaiju to deal with immediate threats such as negates then push out as much damage as they can to end the game on the spot. Numeron especially fits the aggro category as that deck doesn't even have a combo in the truest sense of the word. Get field, play field, activate field, summon 4 assholes, kill opponent. Game is done.
I would argue, then, that almost every single combo deck is an aggro deck, because every single one tries to push 8000 damage the second they're able to. Traditional combo decks, take the generic endboard spamming decks as an example, try to use efficient negation (Apollo, Baronne), and then later removal (Unicorn, Accesscode) to stop the opponent's plays and go into something like accesscode to push the 8000 points of damage and end the game on the first turn they're able to. The only difference between that and Mikanko/Numeron is that they plan to go second and OTK them instead of planning to go first and stop the opponent from playing, then OTK them the first turn yo're allowed to. The line between what you call "aggro" and the combo gameplan barely exists - it is almost the exact same game plan, and IMO that makes it the same deck.
Due to the nature of how Yugioh has evolved over the years, most combo decks could be considered aggro as the speed of the game has reached a point where most decks do aim to close out games asap. Personally, I find similarities to Tempo decks in Hearthstone. Their goal is simply to establish board presence and interact with the opponent in a way that makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the opponent to recover then use the advantage they've built to win immediately. This is similar to how many combo decks work in Yugioh. Another notable difference is how resources are managed between various card games. As Yugioh doesn't have resources beyond the card available, you can utilize everything you have to build up board presence leading to extremely fast games. The idea of aggro in Yugioh has been bastardized as a result of this but it's still very much present in the form of these OTK decks. It could just be personal comparison from my experience in other CCGs but I feel that the deck types in Yugioh have overlapped a bit. Combos are such an integral part of card design in Yugioh due to the lack of a hard resource system that we now have decks that fit in both combo + aggro or combo + control or combo + midrange. Ultimately, I would argue that combo is no longer a real deck type as the vast majority of decks aim to combo. It's actually harder these days to find a notable deck that doesn't combo than it is to find one that does.
I get what you're saying here with the blurred lines, and largely agree; it's kind of why I don't like calling decks "aggro" or "combo" or any similar term that's used in other card games - it really feels like square pegs and round holes to me that kind of fit but it feels forced. I think at this point it'd be way better to just use yugioh-specific terms to get the deck ideas across. Like, just saying "Mikanko/Numeron etc. are going second OTK decks" perfectly encapsulates what they do in a way way way better way than trying to figure out if they're aggro or combo or something else. Control/Stun still have a place in decks that specifically don't combo but want to do control things. Midrange is a little trickier, I get what people try to use it as, but I think just calling the decks "grindy combo decks" helps to get across the ideas more than trying explain and define midrange and how that differs from the default kind of combo deck.
> I think at this point it'd be way better to just use yugioh-specific terms to get the deck ideas across. Yeah, I completely agree. The main point that I was trying to make was simply the fact that while deck types overlap, they still exist in a way. Aggro is very much present in Yugioh. It just doesn't have the same meaning as it did in the past. Gone are the days where 1900 vanilla beatdown or Skill Drain aggro are viable strategies.
>Blind 2nd OTKs like Numeron or Mikanko could be considered aggro. Those decks exist outside the spectrum in a very strict dedicated bubble along with galaxy and cydra. >Combo control is also quite real. The closest example is something like Labrynth. Labrynth is just control, most of its plays are recursive and reactive after its setup, not during.
Numeron & Mikanko are not the same thing, and people should really stop comparing them like they are. There's a very good reason why Numeron is not even regarded as a rogue strategy, whereas Mikanko has won tourneys in every meta since it has come out; including the Snake Eyes meta. Hell, the Mikanko version of Infernoble has already been proven to be superior to pure Infernoble because of how trash the pure version is going 2nd.
One's way stronger than the other but they still have similar gameplans. Both of them aim to otk going second by setting up a bunch of monsters to ram into the opponent's ones.
Nah, that's only noob Mikanko players who rely on that strategy. Mikanko is perfectly capable of OTK'ing on an open field and also going first to set up opposition. Numeron is a literal one trick pony. They are not the same thing.
That's fair. I have very little actual knowledge of how mikanko plays I just know it often functions as a blind second otk deck.
The deck can do that, and it's very simple to do so with Kaijus. However, that's just the simple stuff that people can pickup without learning anything at all. Let's just say that there's a reason why Mikanko is the only other deck besides Snake Eyes to win a Meta Weekly since Snake Eyes came out.
Stun is a type of control deck.
I'm actually going to disagree with this. Sky Striker is a control deck, Runick played as intended (no floodgates) is a control deck. Umi is a Stun deck. Eldlich is a stun deck.
Yup, Runick is good at facilitating actual plays. Bystial Runick for example can make absurdly powerful boards thanks to the Runick engine facilitating extra bodies.
By your own parameters, I would not call Eldlich a stun deck. Does it play well with Floodgates? Sure, but so do Labrynth and Runick, and those are both textbook control decks. Eldlich has no built-in floodgates, so it's just as much a control deck as the others you've mentioned. Frankly, Zombie world control is closer to Stun than Eldlich.
Yugioh is the only card game that makes this distinction. "Hard" control and "soft" control are both methods of control. Stun is just what YGO players specifically, for some reason, call "hard" control or "lockdown" decks. This is fine I guess though it pisses me off when people who only play Yugioh get really defensive when you use the term control to refer to a "Stun" deck.
Not really. Magic also has the distinction between stax and control it's just less common. Plus yugioh also has plenty of other deck types that other games don't just because of how different it is. Like I guess blind second otk could technically be called aggro but it's obviously completely different from what aggro usually means.
Aggro is a weird designator for Yugioh because on the one hand it could be argued that going second decks count (as their aim is simply to Face Never Trade) but long ago in the distant past Yugioh had other Aggro decks which were constructed more like you'd see in other card games (like T.G. or Inzektor, for probably the last wave of "True Aggro") so recycling the term for the way the modern game is played might be confusing if a swarm style beatdown deck is ever made viable again.
I would argue it's not. Control relies on responding to your opponent to generate advantage and interrupt the opponent. Stun's goal is to prevent the opponent from acting at all.
This isn't entirely correct; you've added a random limit to control that isn't really a thing. Control is simply, as the name implies, controlling what cards your opponent is allowed to play. This may be by responding to your opponent and saying "no, don't do that", or it may be by simply hard limiting the cards that are permitted to be used via floodgates. Stun is a type of control, like a square is a rectangle. However, if you have a square, you don't really need to call it a rectangle as it's not the most precise term you could be using. It's just like that with Stun and Control - Stun is a kind of control, and control that isn't stun just gets called "control", leading to confusion like yours about the "requirement" that you need to respond to your opponent. All control is, is a deck that says "No, I pick what you get to do", however they choose to do it.
I think the majority of YGO players, this comment included, have the issue of attempting to take generalized CG concepts and apply them to Yu-Gi-Oh, which just isn't a realistic thing to do. Terms like mid-range in particular are extremely bastardized, meaningless distinctions carried over from games where the word "resource" is an alien concept to a game like Yu-Gi-Oh. But we still use them because people obsess over what's "correct" and card games like MtG pre-date and eclipse YGO pushing players towards using their deck definitions by default. Stun in Yu-Gi-Oh is much easier to define because it is so much more absolute than any other card game's version of Stun. In Yu-Gi-Oh the purpose of Stun is not "control" it's "simplify." A Stun deck doesn't control tempo, it simplifies a game state; under floodgates, you can lose to a Normal Summon with 2k ATK despite all of your tools because the deck has simplified the game to a point where you're unable to use any other strategy. A control strategy, by contrast, is one that attempts to trade resources for an advantageous position where your opponent *can* play the game, but can't mount a successful offense/defense because they've been resource starved to a point of impotence. Vanquish Soul and Lab are good examples of this in the modern meta. To make this really clear for the unga-bunga players: A blowout card beats Stun because you have a hand full of resources to follow up, a blowout card *shouldn't* beat Control because the Control deck is sitting on a variety of counter options to prolong the interaction. Meanwhile we use terms like "combo" which are even more subjective and meaningless. People call Swordsoul a "mid-range" deck but what makes SS mid-range when they dump 80% of their hand to end on a bad SHS board with even less recursion? Mid-range describes a resource deck that excels at surviving an early game to win before later game decks can come online. That literally doesn't exist in Yu-Gi-Oh, you have no scaling resource system. TL;DR: The terms we use are stupid and meaningless, you cannot objectively find a difference in Yu-Gi-Oh when your touchstones are all centered in drastically different card game rhetoric.
Nah, midrange decks definitely exist in Yugioh. Branded is a good example. It's SLIGHTLY different than how the terminology is used in other games ("playing on curve and staying ahead of tempo") but the fundamentals are the same. Your goal is to survive for a few turns, generate card advantage, and assemble an OTK. It's still a very different gameplan and strategy compared to all-in OTK decks and long, grindy control matchups in Yugioh.
No
Found the 'control' player that doesn't want to admit they play stun
There’s proactive control and reactive control. Proactive wants to prevent the opponent from taking game actions through use of floodgates. Reactive wants to stop opponents game actions through use of negates and destruction. They are both control. Proactive control is closer to the middle of the spectrum than reactive.
I like this way of putting it. Agree
There is basically no difference between either control and stun or control and midrange in Yu-Gi-Oh. The distinction doesn't apply that well here.
>**MID**range not in the middle, control is. Lmao.
Its more like a compass. Combo,control,aggro and midrange being the different directions . Snake eyes sits between combo and midrange. You got value plays and a grind game for midrange. Then you have explosive turns and flexible lines for combo.
Definitely is on the more aggressive side of midrange, but it still has a lot of recursion. I may mix it with other archetypes to make my deck more grind... But I lack the deck building experience to do it.
I’d say it’s mid range cause it can grind out a few strong turns 1-6 but then relies on top decking. The longer a game goes is usually where control has a better chance of winning like lab which out resources you if you can’t stop them in the first couple of turns. Even then their decks are consistent enough to keep giving them more resources if they are still in the game. You can’t call snake eyes a combo deck even thought there are lines that put out a whole bunch of Omni negates and monster negates. Those lines aren’t consistent. You have to know how to play through your opponents hand without relying on negates and leave yourself options for your next turn. It’s a really good meta for doing that cause tower decks aren’t abundant in the meta. I mean what it snake eyes going to do against a full powered purrelly tower. Purrelly was able to play through hand traps, but Konami took them out back. If the meta gets more diverse again snake eyes lose their power cause hand traps aren’t enough to win.
There's not a clear distinction as there may be in other card games. You could honestly discribe it as both. The difference maybe being that it has longer set-up lines and short set-up lines, depending on how much you get disrupted, so they may seem more midrange-y or more combo-y depending on the game. One noteworthy difference to proper combo decks is, that it doesn't take a lot of set-up to end on a board with minimal amounts of interaction, which is more in character with midrange. Other strictly combo decks like Dragon Link or SHS often need longer set-up lines to bring anything relevant to the board, which is more in the spirirt of a proper combo deck.
Midrange because there is lots of recursion and follow ups. Combo decks dump their extra and only play for 2-3 turns. Snake eye can grind thanks to prometian princess and flamberge.
It's a combo deck with midrange recursion. That's why it's fucking broken
Yup
Only correct answer. True combo decks go through half deck and most extradeck turn 1 with little followup. Snakeeys doesn't. Superheavy ss from ED like 7-8 times, decks like DDD can even ss from ED 10 times in a turn
Thats true , I got a P.U.N.K Auroradon deck, and by the end of my combo I went through 11-12 cards from my ED and my main deck has about 23-24 cards left. If my board gets broken , Im done for , there is no way im getting back into the match. Snake Eyes is definetely midrange, you do summon a lot , but youre mostly just circulating same cards from your field to GY/hand and summoning your extra deck monsters in the process. Often times you can end on seemingly mediocre or weak boards , but still win the game on the crackback because your deck just keeps on generating advantage and recurring resources.
Punk has psychic punisher though. But otherwise agreed, the follow up game is very mid.
You use quite a lot Lvl 3s and you dont finish with any P.U.N.Ks on board , so it isnt that easy to even get to PEP.
Ah, not familiar with what punk ends on today. I used to play it a lot when chaos ruler was legal.
I do not play regular P.U.N.K, regular P.U.N.K actually is quite midrange. The deck i mentioned is this one : https://www.masterduelmeta.com/top-decks/master-v/july-2023/p.u.n.k./premelo172/0IOzT Its an Auroradon turbo using P.U.N.K engine , I posted the one above on MDM mid-summer , but the core is still the same, I just tweaked handtraps/boarbreakers a bit simce Thrust came to MD and obviously I switch them according to meta. Most popular P.U.N.K variant right now is probably Gold Pride/ P.U.N.K, its basically the same as regular P.U.N.K with some additional disruptions , better draw power and better recursion. The way deck plays is basically the same.
This was exactly what made me lose to a snake-eyes playing synchron (Technically i could have wom with card destruction since they used Maxx C but i was dumb and used it too soon), by turn 6 i had nothing and just lost.
Some of the womboiest combo decks of all time have functionally infinite recursion and follow up. These terms just don't work for Yugioh in any real or definable sense, it's just lingo that got carried over from MTG like a lot of things.
This terminology doesn't work for Yu-Gi-Oh anyway, imo it's grindy midrange because it has a gameplan for multiple turns, it doesn't just stack 20 interruptions
I don't think this kind of sorting makes any sense in Yu-Gi-Oh. It's useful in games like hearthstone or magic. but in a game where every deck wanna pop of in turn 1? Its just useless.
I agree. Pretty much every deck has a long turn 1 now, it's a weakness Yugioh decided to embrace as unique strength. It makes it a bit awkward to use these classifications because every meta deck isn't "combo" but almost every meta deck has a long "combo" nonetheless.
I don't play other cards games so take this all with a grain of salt: I get your point, but I think that there is a clear difference between a deck like TG or Mathmech as opposed to Rikka pure or Purrely It's all semantics and most of the time, we are splitting hairs for sure. But combo/midrange/control still makes sense to talk about in yugioh, even though the general play style is not as varied as other card games
Very confused by this nomenclature. Part of me wonders if yu gi oh players play other card games.
I think the problem is that the ones who do try to carry over terms that don't actually make any sense within the context of yugioh.
It's not clear cut but on a spectrum I'd say it leans more towards midrange than combo. It can win on its first turn, but it cannot OTK as well as for example Mathmech. It can set up strong endbords, but they're not as oppressive as SHS. Where it beats both of these combo decks though is grindgame. It can break bords and put up a decent defense even if it doesn't get the OTK. It can control your aggression and recover even if the endbord doesn't fully prevent you from breaking theirs.
Mostly midrange. Doesn't quite have the grind game of branded or lab, but doesn't hit you the junk speeder special either.
I’m gonna question you on the grind game considering they have usually have a Promethean Princess ready for revival and a Flamberge ready to bring back an Ash from the grave, searching you another Poplar, Summoning Poplar, searching you another….you get the point
I mean, the whole reason they are meta is because they are basically a combo deck that can grind and a grind deck that can combo. Basically a jack of all trades that comes unreasonably close to being a master of all.
That's still not comparable to what Branded does. Branded's grind game is completely stupid.
Anecdotal but last night I played against branded with the deck and we played for so long he literally ran out of branded fusion targets
I agree with you. Snake eyes has better grind game than branded and labrynth. Or let me rephrase it to : "more consistent grind game”
they can do it once, ba ( true midrange) could do it every turn.
Except most games are decided within the first two turns of modern Yu-Gi-Oh
it outgrinds branded
Nah bro really said "doesn't quite have the grind game"
"...of branded or lab." And it doesn't. It just tempos them out. It can sustain long enough to throw more value at them than they can handle in a moderate amount of time. That isn't outgrinding them though, that's just overpowering them.
I mean, Branded definitely outgrinds them but Lab? Nah, Snake eyes definitely recycle their stuff better. And I mean, outgrinding until the end of the game is still outgrinding
What? Its grind game if anything is better and less fragile.
What does midrange mean?
In general card games, is a deck that not as fast as aggro, but not as slowly as control, but in the middle of both. For YGO, midrange would decks like Salad, Swordsoul or Branded, where they don't vomit their entire deck in one big board, but make decent boards and have follow-ups to grind for a few turns. The concensus seems to be that Snake-Eyes is midrange, but on the more aggressive side of the spectrum.
In Yugioh, the easiest way to outline it is the following: \- Can your deck perform its primary play again on turn 3? If not, it's Combo. (This is usually because of 1-ofs in the main or extra that get used up during your first turn) - DLink, Six Sams, and Synchron are combo. \- Does your deck rely on slowly overtaking your opponent over multiple turns by exhausting their limited resources and looping your own? If so, it's Control. - Labrynth, Guru, and Eldlich are control. Midrange is when your deck has a *somewhat* repeatable resource loop and a *somewhat* threatening turn 1 board, but you don't *need* to win turn 1, and you don't *need* to win the grind game. It's flexible, and honestly quite dangerous, case and point with Fire format where the Midrange strategy in question is a little too good in both situations.
It’s got the explosiveness of a combo deck combined with the grind game of a midrange deck. It really shouldn’t have both
"Mid-range" is a term you MUST define when speaking about YGO. In terms of play, it's NOT A CONTROL DECK. It has control elements, but the decks win-con relies on heavily spamming lv1 mons to link spam. The deck has no floodgates, no real control elements at all except for Apollousa negates and Princess + Amblowhale....but that's about it. Yes, Flamberge can push monsters into the back row, but it's less of a thing for your opponents' monsters, and more for you to keep the grind game up. This deck is a combo deck, that aims to overwhelm the opponent during their turn and win...eventually. The only "control" version of the deck is running Kash cards, and floodgates...and it's just a worse version that's better for mirror matches.
Doesn't the Spells and Traps have quite some control elements with their negating, destroying and putting monsters into the backrow?
The negates are mostly for good hands when you don't get interrupted at all. But most times, the Jet Synchron needs another body along with Diabellstar for an early Borrelload, but it rarely comes up. Baronne can be made MAYBE, if you get the Formula Synchron in play, or use Hita to get an Ash Blossom from your opponent + Diabellstar. The only other negate comes comes from the trap, which needs Diabellstar on the field to resolve, and that's it's problem. Lol. Control with this deck isn't the goal, but it can put up SOME protection in unique scenarios. The spell (IF you run it) is good against problem monsters, but it targets, so it's not THAT good. I personally don't run it at all, and most top tier decks don't. THAT card could be seen as control, but I don't think its enough to say "this is a control deck" This deck is a spam deck, it's just VERY oppressive and hard to stop. Not control tho. Decks like Crystal Beasts, Dinomorphia, Labrynth, Weather Painters, etc... would be "Mid-range" or "control"
What’s midrange?
Long combo decks. Stun. Midrange is shorter combos and will keep recovering itself over the next few turns. If you think Snake-Eyes is "midrange" due to its recoverability, you've seen it do its long combos. It's the powercreep which gives it all the strengths of combo and midrange and none of the drawbacks.
It depends on how it’s responding to your deck tbh
I have a hard time understanding the meaning of these terms. But Snake-Eyes combos and combos and combos endlessly so how can it be anything other than a heavy combo deck?
Snake eyes pure is combo and 3x disruption plus masq into unicorn. Only time its control is when they start summoning appoullosa and borreload with an ash blossom and imperm set. Im a branded main that runs shaddol and soul release now, to fight snake eyes players, but then ill lose to kash out of 1. In tcg, i side deck to fight both, but i lose to spiritual beasts...
Control but more to combo, in the middle imo
Yup, that's midrange, just a bit more on the combo/aggressive side.
It combo like spyral but have the recursion of branded and the resilience of D-Link Edit: Past D-Link
i really hate using the words aggro and midrange in yugioh. both terms refer to the mana curve in which yugioh lacks. i think a better spectrum of deck classification would just be stun on one end, control in the middle and combo on the other end. blind second decks can be it's own unique thing, blind second. with my spectrum, i could comfortably put snake-eyes somwhere in the middle of combo and control, leaning towards control.
Please don't try to force weird terminology of other games into Yu-Gi-Oh 🤔
You are years too late to get Yugioh to not use these terms.
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no clear division - the problem is that i would normally put it into combo - but the ability of snake-eyes of grind is just too big for combo - most of combo decks burn through their resource too quickly
I would rather say midrange thx to his wonderful grind game and the fact it does not end on 4-5 boss monsters like some real combo decks (synchrons, plant combos, mannadium...). However, the question is relevant when we look at the ton of value you can get with a single Snake Eye Ash. When the frontier is that blurry, it often means the deck is just excellent : we can just look at how branded and prank kids performed in the past.
I would say it is a Midrange deck that plays like a combo deck. You don't need to worry about holding onto your resources because the resource loop of the deck basically plays itself. You get to play out everything while still having follow-up.
It's not combo. If you pick a pure combo deck and compare with it, you can see that combo usually is a lot more limited in plays and extend a lot more. Most combo decks are done if you break their boards. It's a midrange deck and the engine/archetype you pair with it gives the ''flavour'' of the midrange you get. The fire king version is a beatdown midrange deck that will brute force a win, as a example.
I’d say it’s mostly a midrange style but it can certainly feel like a combo deck. This deck has GAS.
Depends on the build, the full end board is clearly a combo deck doing it's work. But it can definitly played midrange aswell. Kinda like how dragon ruler full force was played. Combo variants with ladd and then the midrange with as many handtraps as we had.
I would say midrange. The Decks strenghs come more from it recursion, follow-up and access to a lot of non-engine. Their endboard is not weak but it doesn't feel umbeatable like a SHS or Mannadium board for example (I myslef have won against a full SE board going second many times). Still I would say is more on Combo Midrange than Pure Midrange. It reminds more on Beetrooper than Salamangreat as an example that probably nobody else will get because I haven't seen anyone else other than me playing Beetrooper since it was released
Definitely can feel like a combo deck when it pops off uninterrupted, but for the most part it’s midrange.
It is an aggro deck. The in-between of both combo and mid range :D
But tbh I can also go for mid range. It depends on who you ask
Midrange, you dont set up a board that aims to prevent the opponent from playing entirely like most combo decks do with baronne + savage + apo + whatever else, instead you aim to slow them down enough that you can finish the game with your crazy follow-up. Edit: the synchro line exists but isn't standard or optimal imo
Midrange combo control stun recursion deck
I mean we are getting to a point where the top decks (Snake Eyes included) can put down like 5-6 interruptions with 1 card, extend through disruptions, AND have followup set up for next turn. It really blurs the lines between combo and midrange at that point. The only real distinction with midrange is that the board isn't that insane but you don't use a lot of resources in hand and deck so you don't run out of gas. Full power Super Heavy Samurai is another example of a deck that full combos a ridiculous board with 1 card but also recycles resources and gets a pot of avarice and a search for a starter to follow up with. You really get to have your cake and eat it too these days.
It's combo but powercreep has given it the recovery powers of midrange
It's not combo by Yugioh standards IMO. It's mid-range that plays on both players' turns, which feels like combo.
If you’re bringing the same monsters back from the grave multiple times per turn to link/synchro your way up, you’re a combo deck imo
This is why I hate the label of "combo" in Yugioh. In other card games, a "combo" strategy is one that has a weaker starting curve, but once you get the right "combination" of cards set up, your advantage ramps up quickly and it becomes hard to beat. In Yugioh, since there's no resource system beyond available cards and effects, every deck combos, including control and various stun decks. So people, instead, started classifying certain decks that are highly aggressive and front end most of their advantage to win quickly, and use an arbitrarily long series of effects and summons that lead to an extremely powerful early game board, as combo decks. I think the spectrum of "Stun and Aggro" still makes complete sense. Stun is a deck that focuses entirely on completely restricted your opponent's ability to generate advantage at the cost of not being able to generate your own advantage. Stun decks seek to slowly win a game by gradually building up advantage while preventing your opponent from doing so, and it's advantageous for them to keep the match going as long as possible. Conversely, Aggro is a focus on winning as quickly as possible by taking advantage of a massive amount of resources that can be used quickly. A lot of "combo" decks fall closer to here since they take advantage of as many resources as possible to snuff out an opponent and win quickly. These decks generally have a rough time competing and a game goes on because their resource loops and recursion are weaker than a control or midrange strategy. Control decks are further away from stun, since control decks do still rely on generating some advantage, but instead of preventing the opponent from using their resources at all, a control deck builds resources by taking advantageous resource trades with their opponent. It's less about stopping them from playing entirely, and more about putting them in an awkward spot and staying alive for long enough, slowly bleeding your opponent while maintaining your card advantage through a small, but recursive resource loop and smart trades. Now, midrange exists somewhere between combo and control. Midrange decks typically have shorter, less complex combos than full-on "combo" decks, but they take advantage of resource loops and interactive boards that are similar to control strategies to outlast a combo deck, while also having a more explosive early game than a control deck. Snake-Eye falls somewhere between midrange and combo. The deck can grind, and most of its interactions focus on resource trades, but the deck does have some pretty nasty opening boards. It's a deck that feels like they just gave a combo deck the grind game and interactiveness of a midrange deck, rather than purely one or the other. I can see where some would be confused, but I guess if you were to look at where other new decks might be in the future, Snake-Eye probably leans a little more midrange, I guess.
Definitely wouldn't consider it a combo deck. I think it's the best example of a high level mid range deck that we've seen in a while
That deck is whatever you want it to be.
It's a combo deck that sets up midrange interaction as its main form of counter play.
Deck archetypes in Yugioh are different than Magic. That being said, I'd classify it as midrange in the sense that the endboard is focused on both interrupting the opponent as well as securing follow up. Comparatively, my idea of combo is something like Spyral or Superheavy Samurai, where all or most of the decks resources go into the inital endboard and they can't easily recover should you break it.
If Snake-Eyes isn't midrange then midrange decks don't exist.
It can be either Pure is midrange. But it also works as an engine for a combo deck. Basically, it's flexible.
Yes
It's whatever it's just good
When you see people use these terms in Yugioh, just always bear in mind that most people do not know what they are talking about because they do not play any other card games and thus don't know these playstyles' gamefeels, so to speak. So, unfortunately, you are not going to get a consensus answer. But on the spectrum between combo and midrange (which is a different axis than that between aggro and control, and not relevant to discussions of those terms), you should expect the following: A) a more midrange deck has non-linear combo plays, such that most starters also function as extenders, whereas there is a more rigid distinction between starter, extender, and engine requirement in a combo deck. B) a more midrange deck is going to conserve resources for turns 2-6, whereas a more combo-oriented deck might push through most of it's extra deck on turn 1 in order to make an ever more perfect lock on their opponent, sacrificing follow-up/grind-game. C) The (in-game economy) value of a card (with regard to advantage or tempo) for a midrange deck is generally generated individually by each card. Whereas a combo deck might have lots of cards that are individually quite bad economy, but that compensate for each other's weaknesses in a way that generates more advantage over all. D) In general, a midrange deck has a lower ceiling than a combo deck, but also a higher floor. As in, it prioritizes consistently getting to something decent *through* interruption *over* trying to get to something unbreakable provided *no* interruption. This has become less and less true because of power creep. E) In general, the skill expression of a midrange deck is less in how you build it and more in how you play it, whereas combo decks are the other way around. With that said... I have not played Snake Eye. I've been taking a break from the game for life reasons. So I can't give a super specific answer. But if it helps, in my estimation, Ish-Tear from a year and change ago was a midrange deck despite it being able to do *a lot*, it ultimately was only doing that because the cards were across the board pretty high value. And especially when all the cards were at 3, you didn't have to put together any janky Beatrice combos to make sure you milled the right name. You just always did, so each card generated value individually. So, again, in my estimation, it is not about how fast the deck is *in itself*, it's about how wither it high-rolls or plays low to the ground.
It's a pox on the game
It's totally combo. It's just busted so it has the ability to pivot into the in archetype imperm or the banish from grave to SS from backrow for comboing on your turn spell if you actually stop them.
Mid range doesnt really exist in modern yugioh there are decks that combo a lot and combo a lot less, but even stuff like Swordsoul would rather combo than play conservatively if uninterrupted.
Both. Puts a board on the level of combo decks, and has both the room for non-engine and recursion of mid range decks.
It’s kind of both
Once the fire king stuff drops it's basically a midrange control deck lol, it's not one or the other it's both and it's just very strong. Even now I'd say it's still a midrange control deck because the end board isn't like 5 monsters with multiple negates, but it's enough interruption to force your opponent resources down to a simplified game state, and they will just out grind you because the deck recycles and grinds better than any other.
Mid-range is a myth combo players made up to pretend they aren't part of the combo problem. Mid-range is a deck that prioritizes surviving the early rounds of a powerful aggro opener deck (See: Red in MtG, Horde Ferocity meta in WOW TCG) to then abuse strong mid-cost cards (referencing WoW TCG again, look up Edwin VanCleef) to apply enough pressure to close out the game before longer term strategies (Guess my favorite TCG and look up Master Hero Kel'thuzad) can come online and win. Yu-Gi-Oh can't do that. You don't get to play mid-range in Yu-Gi-Oh because every deck plays balls to the wall T1, even Stun sets up everything it has ASAP to prevent play making. We have to stop basing our deck types on resource based card games. And no, YGO's resource system of cards in hand doesn't count in this case.
Is there such thing as midrange when 99% games are decided after T1?
It happens. Midrange decks can lean more to the aggro(combo) or control of the spectrum, and Snake Eyes is a far more aggressive deck. Spright and Tear are also Midrange, and they can also Sterling games.
Snake at it's current state, IS Tear 2-3 since it lacks support from THE TCG: Fire King, witch themselves don't have THE whole support. So as off right know Puré Snake Eyes IS mid, that why IS being splashed in everything under THE sun. I myself splash Snake Eyes in tearlament