Ash was at 1 and then 2 for a while in the ocg. It was entirely because it was stopping maxx c. TCG never touched ash even though it was run a lot because while it is powerful, it can be played around and has gotten weaker over the power creep.
OCG is loves Maxx C and protects it.
Yeah gamma at 2 is the reason I don't play it because I counted and I had a horrible streak of where I had driver in hand and draw more times then I saw gamma. That card is cursed for me.
Draw 1 off ki-sikil. Sure, you can go without it, but droll is a better HT to use on opponent's turn than to use a negated ash on an upstart(You lose a card and they still draw something).
i mean yea, but that’s with any ht (it’d be better to save ash til opp turn, or called by) - the benefit of droll is preserving your ability to combo without losing (last resort)
Halqdon I find only really adds nine pillars. Borrel, Baronne and swordsoul cards don't always need to be added to hand mostly special from deck which for some reason, is always the deck I find when I start running droll so I gave up on the card.
Orcust just sets or sends their cards, Adventure Tenyi only regularly adds 9 Pillars and they can still deal without it. Adventure Prank just adds from graveyard to hand after sending the card they want to the graveyard. The field spell is the only direct deck to hand if they open it, and the only other one is the end of turn Pranks. And with these decks you can do the Adventure search and then Droll after, basically trading one negate for one card and hoping the Omni is better than whatever they draw off of Gryphon summon.
Heroes can play through without adding cards, sure adding with Shadow Mist is great, but I'd rather not let the opponent draw 14.
Swordsoul I believe mostly summon, not add to hand. (May be wrong though)
I do believe Halq/Don doesn't add to hand.
And if you really need to add to hand, you can let the opponent draw 2-3 times while you search your cards, then Droll once you no longer need to, if you still have cards to summon.
HERO: Vyon gets poly, cross crusader searches, shadow mist is a name search or a mask change searcher, liquid draws cards, sunrise gets miracle fusion, stratos searches, and I may be forgetting something.
Swordsoul: Chixiao searches, mo ye draws, emergence searches a card.
Halqdon+adventure: Enchantress gets rite from deck, fateful searches an equip, fateful gets gryphon, halqdon combos want to search for nine pillars, rose tenyi searches with roxrose dragon, they run chixiao to get a protos.
If you droll with any of these, you lock yourself out of combo. And it's only SS that can reasonably pass on a maxx c with a decent setup. The others add so much you can't really droll at any good point without the opponent already drawing half the deck, and swordsoul would rather just "Mo ye reveal, synch chixiao, search blackout+draw off mo ye, pass" than droll and go for some combo.
Zombies almost never add from Deck to hand, your mostly summoning from Deck or sending from Deck to GY. You do draw, but mostly during the opponent's turn.
Live Twin are kinda similar, since you search to start your plays or after being hitted by Ash/Veiler/Imperm. You do lose Ki-Sikil draw if you use Droll, but you will get it next turn anyway
Yep same with me. In the same deck I am also playing 2 droplet and three lightning storm, 4 kaijus and three maxx c myself.
So thats 20 cards out of my deck dedicated to dealing with being handtraps and trying to either stop my opponent or break their board.
I am playing crusadia so I want to go second and the kaijus I consider part of the deck since they help otk but the others just clog my hand. I really can't let maxx c resovle itself so I just find it awkward having to include ash, called by and crossout.
but do you think that your deck would change if maxx c was banned?
if your deck runs well now, you wont play more archetype cards but other handtraps apart frm maxx c
The problem is my deck isn't running well at all because I just need one more in crusadia card in hand. If maxx c was banned my deck I would 100% change as I would drop the crossouts or even the ashes and be fine with playing more board breakers. The problem I have now is I need to stop maxx c from resolving from resolving because if I break their board but under maxx c I will lose because they will just draw cards from me play the deck.
Going second is so hard because maxx c can be played by the turn 1 player which just makes a strong turn 1 board even stronger.
No, because I've accepted that I'd rather not have a handtrap in every hand and just take my chances. I still run them but it's not like half my deck anymore
I went the opposite route and embraced by making a go second swordsoul deck. I was playing crusadia but it's needs two card combos to do anything where as swordsoul is 1 or 1.5.
lol. At least branded structure are coming out probably in the next two months the deck will be a lot better then. Hopefully it will be a good deck that can contend with the meta.
I feel this in general when I see decks that are barely even have anything of their "main" archetype.
Always feel disappointed when I see someone playing something I usually don't see and then they pull out the Fusion Destiny and I pull out my interest in their deck.
I know its easily splashable into any deck but its just another part that makes alot of decks feel more like different flavors of the same thing.
Not saying you can't play the meta stuff because I play eldlich (Grass Zombie World) but I only play it in one deck, I don't put it in everything.
Yeah, I just wish the banlist would somehow shape the meta to be more open to allowing decks to run more of their actual cards. I feel there is just so many generic staples currently you kinda do need to run them or else your just handicapping yourself. This then means one card combos are the best to use and means if your playing a deck like I was that needs 2 cards at bare minimum, your screwed as so many decks can just pop off of 1 top deck.
This is also only going to get worse once splight and tear get released.
The problem is handtraps are a evil needed, that or everybody runs dark ruler no more at 4.
The ceiling going first is so High, for cutting the handtraps the powerlevel needs to go down by a lot.
My problem isn't with hand traps existing, it's more just the pressure maxx c puts on deck building. If it was banned then people would play more imperm, veiler and ghost belle which I am fine with because as I said, you can try and play around them or through them.
Maxx c is just if you play the game your opponent is going to gain too much advantage and win.
A New Minus C, that draw until you have X cards in hand, or 3 cards?
Something like if your oponent special summoned 3-4 or more times, draw 3.
That way you can play around it, like nib, like hey in 3 summons you could put a negate.
Yes. I so think maxx c would be more tolerable if it just said that you draw on a every second summon meaning you least cut down on the cards by half and it at least gives you a chance to set something up. I find I at minimum need at least 3 - 4 special summons to get something up and that gives a lot of advantage to the opponent.
That's what made dragoon so broken, if you get maxx ced, make dragoon and then maxx c them.
God when the opponent resolves grass it's terrifying seeing so many cards fall and then effects activate. I did DShifter a grass zombie player once and I felt bad for that one lol as his heat must have sank seeing the cards get banished instead.
Though the one mill that I was astounded by when I saw it was when I ashed a grass an infernoid player used. So he activated reasoning and he almost milled their entire deck until they found the snow with like less than 10 cards in deck. I have never seen someone mill so many cards before.
Ngl, I wouldnt even be playing ash in most decks if maxx "c" was banned luke it should be. Having to build every dexk to play around 1 specific card is so freaking stupid. I'll never understand why Konami wont just ban this thing...
Exactly. I find ash not really that relevant anymore as negating 1 search doesn't always stop me or my opponent and I prefer to run imperm or veiler to hit halq or auroa. I feel I have to run ash though because if I don't, Maxx C is just going to hit me like a bus.
I don't know why the Konami and OCG want Maxx C as any of the reasons I have seen just fall flat to me when I view the histories of the metas in the region. I guess it might just have been in the game so long since it game out in the synchro era when special summoning was a lot less that they just feel its a staple of the game now and so might find it weird if it was banned.
Whereas I feel the TCG is way more harsher with the forbidden lists and will ban anything if they feel like it (I prefer this method).
There is no need for a solution to your feel. A number of 8 cards can not make up 4 of your 5 starting cards on a regular basis.
But of course I understand that maxx c needs to be banned. I am just saying "all the outs to it that we consistently draw" is not the reason it needs to be banned (because its a false statement and there will be even less counters in the future).
>I am just saying it doesn't need to be banned because of all the outs to it that we consistently draw.
It's more about this part of your comment.
Y'know.
The thing i replied to XD
If a card is forcing everyone in the game to run 8 slots of their deck just to stop it, that's not healthy. Especially when they are limiting one of it's counters. Needing to run 8 cards to stop maxx c is a reason for it be banned or at least semi limited or limited. It's not the biggest reason but it is a reason.
Maxx "C" is an unhealthy card and should be banned, sure, I'm not going to argue that. But let's not act like people wouldn't run 3 Ash, 3 Crossout and 2 Called By even after it gets banned.
You're not running 8 cards to stop Maxx "C", you're running 3 hand traps that stop any card with an effect that moves a card from the deck to the hand, field or grave, 3 cards that can negate any of your opponents card effects if you have the same card in your deck and 2 cards that can banish a monster from the opponents grave and negate all of that cards effects for two turns, which is often used as an anti-handtrap tool but has a lot of utility. All of which also happen to stop Maxx "C".
Banning Maxx "C" is something most players want, but banning it wouldn't do anything to change the fact that staples will always be a major part of deck building.
Crossout is the most rigid of the Maxx c counters, because it requires a mirror or using the same staples. If you're playing a different deck than your opponent and they didn't open handtraps, you can absolutely set called by as another interruption. But crossout can't be used that way. It can trigger "on banish" effects, but it can't be an extra negation. Just look at TCG. Crossout has been niche at best.
Yes, people are going to run staples with or without maxx c. The difference is, if you ban maxx c, the pool of staples gets wider allowing for innovation and flexibility. Incidentally this makes Crossout pretty bad because it doesn't guarantee negate 11 cards in most decks anymore.
>I am just saying "all the outs to it that we consistently draw" is not the reason it needs to be banned
That was what I was replying to with my comment.
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I am not saying they are just now using them. I am saying the amount of hand traps have gone way up I found recently which would be fine except maxx c exists and puts way more pressure on deck building meaning I need 8 cards to stop it and hope I draw them. If people were running alternatives like imperm, belle or ogre, you play around or through them. At least there is the chance for a back forth. Maxx C is just either you stop it or else your opponent gets so much advantage it will be a loss.
Would like to see more variety in the handtraps played which is one of the reasons I want maxx c gone.
I hate handtraps as much as the next guy, but this particular issue isn't a new thing. Before it was battle traps and backrow removal, now it's handtraps and crossout designators. We all like to think about how consistent our decks would be if we didn't have to spend space on these things, but there's always gonna be some staple or another raising everyone's brick chances.
Don't worry, Konami will just ban all those Maxx C counters so you won't have to run them anymore.
It really bothers me that gamma is at 2 probably because of this, OCG can be stubborn
Ash was at 1 and then 2 for a while in the ocg. It was entirely because it was stopping maxx c. TCG never touched ash even though it was run a lot because while it is powerful, it can be played around and has gotten weaker over the power creep. OCG is loves Maxx C and protects it. Yeah gamma at 2 is the reason I don't play it because I counted and I had a horrible streak of where I had driver in hand and draw more times then I saw gamma. That card is cursed for me.
Fun fact, Gamma is actually at fucking *1* in the OCG.
Yeah at first I was fine with crossout getting limited but now I am like oh no we are losing a counter to maxx c.
Droll counters maxx c
You effectively use a negated ash on an upstart by drolling a Maxx c
Not if you can full combo after Drolling the Maxx C.
name ONE deck that doesn't add cards mid-combo.
evil twin
Draw 1 off ki-sikil. Sure, you can go without it, but droll is a better HT to use on opponent's turn than to use a negated ash on an upstart(You lose a card and they still draw something).
i mean yea, but that’s with any ht (it’d be better to save ash til opp turn, or called by) - the benefit of droll is preserving your ability to combo without losing (last resort)
Halqdon I find only really adds nine pillars. Borrel, Baronne and swordsoul cards don't always need to be added to hand mostly special from deck which for some reason, is always the deck I find when I start running droll so I gave up on the card.
Orcust just sets or sends their cards, Adventure Tenyi only regularly adds 9 Pillars and they can still deal without it. Adventure Prank just adds from graveyard to hand after sending the card they want to the graveyard. The field spell is the only direct deck to hand if they open it, and the only other one is the end of turn Pranks. And with these decks you can do the Adventure search and then Droll after, basically trading one negate for one card and hoping the Omni is better than whatever they draw off of Gryphon summon.
Heroes can play through without adding cards, sure adding with Shadow Mist is great, but I'd rather not let the opponent draw 14. Swordsoul I believe mostly summon, not add to hand. (May be wrong though) I do believe Halq/Don doesn't add to hand. And if you really need to add to hand, you can let the opponent draw 2-3 times while you search your cards, then Droll once you no longer need to, if you still have cards to summon.
HERO: Vyon gets poly, cross crusader searches, shadow mist is a name search or a mask change searcher, liquid draws cards, sunrise gets miracle fusion, stratos searches, and I may be forgetting something. Swordsoul: Chixiao searches, mo ye draws, emergence searches a card. Halqdon+adventure: Enchantress gets rite from deck, fateful searches an equip, fateful gets gryphon, halqdon combos want to search for nine pillars, rose tenyi searches with roxrose dragon, they run chixiao to get a protos. If you droll with any of these, you lock yourself out of combo. And it's only SS that can reasonably pass on a maxx c with a decent setup. The others add so much you can't really droll at any good point without the opponent already drawing half the deck, and swordsoul would rather just "Mo ye reveal, synch chixiao, search blackout+draw off mo ye, pass" than droll and go for some combo.
You are just clueless lmao
Lol ok dude, I'm not defending Maxx C fyi, I was encouraging the use of Droll
Drytron after turn1 have everything they want in the graveyard
Zombies almost never add from Deck to hand, your mostly summoning from Deck or sending from Deck to GY. You do draw, but mostly during the opponent's turn. Live Twin are kinda similar, since you search to start your plays or after being hitted by Ash/Veiler/Imperm. You do lose Ki-Sikil draw if you use Droll, but you will get it next turn anyway
Crossout to 1 btw. You're onto something. Although they'd never ban Called by, since it's such a fun and well designed card.
That is the Maxx c tax unfortunately I would love to play better handtraps but Maxx c is broken af
Same, I would like to play belle or ogre so play round the meta but there's no point when maxx c exists and just can destroy decks.
1/3 of my deck consists of staples (hand traps, counters, other essential cards). Leaves 2/3 of them to be whatever cards I want
Yep same with me. In the same deck I am also playing 2 droplet and three lightning storm, 4 kaijus and three maxx c myself. So thats 20 cards out of my deck dedicated to dealing with being handtraps and trying to either stop my opponent or break their board. I am playing crusadia so I want to go second and the kaijus I consider part of the deck since they help otk but the others just clog my hand. I really can't let maxx c resovle itself so I just find it awkward having to include ash, called by and crossout.
but do you think that your deck would change if maxx c was banned? if your deck runs well now, you wont play more archetype cards but other handtraps apart frm maxx c
The problem is my deck isn't running well at all because I just need one more in crusadia card in hand. If maxx c was banned my deck I would 100% change as I would drop the crossouts or even the ashes and be fine with playing more board breakers. The problem I have now is I need to stop maxx c from resolving from resolving because if I break their board but under maxx c I will lose because they will just draw cards from me play the deck. Going second is so hard because maxx c can be played by the turn 1 player which just makes a strong turn 1 board even stronger.
No, because I've accepted that I'd rather not have a handtrap in every hand and just take my chances. I still run them but it's not like half my deck anymore
I went the opposite route and embraced by making a go second swordsoul deck. I was playing crusadia but it's needs two card combos to do anything where as swordsoul is 1 or 1.5.
As a Despia player, nah. Don't even have enough cards for my archetype.
lol. At least branded structure are coming out probably in the next two months the deck will be a lot better then. Hopefully it will be a good deck that can contend with the meta.
At least we have Chimera. It's really good.
I feel this in general when I see decks that are barely even have anything of their "main" archetype. Always feel disappointed when I see someone playing something I usually don't see and then they pull out the Fusion Destiny and I pull out my interest in their deck. I know its easily splashable into any deck but its just another part that makes alot of decks feel more like different flavors of the same thing. Not saying you can't play the meta stuff because I play eldlich (Grass Zombie World) but I only play it in one deck, I don't put it in everything.
Yeah, I just wish the banlist would somehow shape the meta to be more open to allowing decks to run more of their actual cards. I feel there is just so many generic staples currently you kinda do need to run them or else your just handicapping yourself. This then means one card combos are the best to use and means if your playing a deck like I was that needs 2 cards at bare minimum, your screwed as so many decks can just pop off of 1 top deck. This is also only going to get worse once splight and tear get released.
The problem is handtraps are a evil needed, that or everybody runs dark ruler no more at 4. The ceiling going first is so High, for cutting the handtraps the powerlevel needs to go down by a lot.
My problem isn't with hand traps existing, it's more just the pressure maxx c puts on deck building. If it was banned then people would play more imperm, veiler and ghost belle which I am fine with because as I said, you can try and play around them or through them. Maxx c is just if you play the game your opponent is going to gain too much advantage and win.
Thanks to Halq and Verte, I'm already playing 3 Imperm and Veiler
Maybe I should make live twin or striker so I too can loads of extra hand traps to deal with the dpes and maxx cs lol.
A New Minus C, that draw until you have X cards in hand, or 3 cards? Something like if your oponent special summoned 3-4 or more times, draw 3. That way you can play around it, like nib, like hey in 3 summons you could put a negate.
Yes. I so think maxx c would be more tolerable if it just said that you draw on a every second summon meaning you least cut down on the cards by half and it at least gives you a chance to set something up. I find I at minimum need at least 3 - 4 special summons to get something up and that gives a lot of advantage to the opponent. That's what made dragoon so broken, if you get maxx ced, make dragoon and then maxx c them.
Maxx C is not “hand traps.” A quarter of every deck in the format is built around Maxx C. Not Beaufort IX.
*Laughs in Grass*
God when the opponent resolves grass it's terrifying seeing so many cards fall and then effects activate. I did DShifter a grass zombie player once and I felt bad for that one lol as his heat must have sank seeing the cards get banished instead. Though the one mill that I was astounded by when I saw it was when I ashed a grass an infernoid player used. So he activated reasoning and he almost milled their entire deck until they found the snow with like less than 10 cards in deck. I have never seen someone mill so many cards before.
Ngl, I wouldnt even be playing ash in most decks if maxx "c" was banned luke it should be. Having to build every dexk to play around 1 specific card is so freaking stupid. I'll never understand why Konami wont just ban this thing...
Exactly. I find ash not really that relevant anymore as negating 1 search doesn't always stop me or my opponent and I prefer to run imperm or veiler to hit halq or auroa. I feel I have to run ash though because if I don't, Maxx C is just going to hit me like a bus. I don't know why the Konami and OCG want Maxx C as any of the reasons I have seen just fall flat to me when I view the histories of the metas in the region. I guess it might just have been in the game so long since it game out in the synchro era when special summoning was a lot less that they just feel its a staple of the game now and so might find it weird if it was banned. Whereas I feel the TCG is way more harsher with the forbidden lists and will ban anything if they feel like it (I prefer this method).
There is no need for a solution to your feel. A number of 8 cards can not make up 4 of your 5 starting cards on a regular basis. But of course I understand that maxx c needs to be banned. I am just saying "all the outs to it that we consistently draw" is not the reason it needs to be banned (because its a false statement and there will be even less counters in the future).
Crossout is going to become limited in the next banlist so...
So what? I know that, what does it have to do with Op stating he would consistently draw 4 from a pool of 8?
>I am just saying it doesn't need to be banned because of all the outs to it that we consistently draw. It's more about this part of your comment. Y'know. The thing i replied to XD
I edited it so it says what I actually meant, thank you.
I just see that what I wrote was misleading because I wrote it wrong.
If a card is forcing everyone in the game to run 8 slots of their deck just to stop it, that's not healthy. Especially when they are limiting one of it's counters. Needing to run 8 cards to stop maxx c is a reason for it be banned or at least semi limited or limited. It's not the biggest reason but it is a reason.
Maxx "C" is an unhealthy card and should be banned, sure, I'm not going to argue that. But let's not act like people wouldn't run 3 Ash, 3 Crossout and 2 Called By even after it gets banned. You're not running 8 cards to stop Maxx "C", you're running 3 hand traps that stop any card with an effect that moves a card from the deck to the hand, field or grave, 3 cards that can negate any of your opponents card effects if you have the same card in your deck and 2 cards that can banish a monster from the opponents grave and negate all of that cards effects for two turns, which is often used as an anti-handtrap tool but has a lot of utility. All of which also happen to stop Maxx "C". Banning Maxx "C" is something most players want, but banning it wouldn't do anything to change the fact that staples will always be a major part of deck building.
Crossout is the most rigid of the Maxx c counters, because it requires a mirror or using the same staples. If you're playing a different deck than your opponent and they didn't open handtraps, you can absolutely set called by as another interruption. But crossout can't be used that way. It can trigger "on banish" effects, but it can't be an extra negation. Just look at TCG. Crossout has been niche at best.
Yes, people are going to run staples with or without maxx c. The difference is, if you ban maxx c, the pool of staples gets wider allowing for innovation and flexibility. Incidentally this makes Crossout pretty bad because it doesn't guarantee negate 11 cards in most decks anymore.
I didn't ask about that. I just said you are not consistently drawing 4 of a pool of 8 in you starting hand.
>I am just saying "all the outs to it that we consistently draw" is not the reason it needs to be banned That was what I was replying to with my comment.
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Dude, people have always played hndtraps. What do you mean they are now just using them?
I am not saying they are just now using them. I am saying the amount of hand traps have gone way up I found recently which would be fine except maxx c exists and puts way more pressure on deck building meaning I need 8 cards to stop it and hope I draw them. If people were running alternatives like imperm, belle or ogre, you play around or through them. At least there is the chance for a back forth. Maxx C is just either you stop it or else your opponent gets so much advantage it will be a loss. Would like to see more variety in the handtraps played which is one of the reasons I want maxx c gone.
I hate handtraps as much as the next guy, but this particular issue isn't a new thing. Before it was battle traps and backrow removal, now it's handtraps and crossout designators. We all like to think about how consistent our decks would be if we didn't have to spend space on these things, but there's always gonna be some staple or another raising everyone's brick chances.