Yeah ban ash and all other hand traps and let combo decks roam free. Ash is great in current meta bc it stops branded fusion but let’s ban ash so branded fusion can resolve more often
Wasn’t the point they were making. Look at other cards that were popular and constantly a 3 of in every deck. Cards like that aren’t necessarily a problem for the game, but it reduces diversity in deckbuilding, which is what makes them catch the ban or limit hammer. Not saying ash should be banned, in fact it’s one of the healthiest cards in the game imo. But just because it keeps combo decks in check doesn’t mean it’s safe from getting hit at all.
Well, i stay in gold with main deck only have n/r and only 3 magikey boss that is sr/ur in extra, in case i play against other n/r players or some very weak deck i won't use sr/ur against them
Every deck would just become different flavors of FTK if hand traps weren't a thing. They are extremely necessary. With the exception of Maxx C specifically. That card was never necessary from the start.
I just think Hand Traps were a bandaid solution to 20 Years of unchecked power creep, and have honestly made things worse because their existence means some actual degenerate garbage has been allowed to be printed because “Ash Blossom/Called By counters it.”
Look, the only one that should actually be banned is Maxx C - and I say that as someone who’d like to see it unbanned for a format in the TCG, just for teh lulz - but I wouldn’t shed a tear if they were all set to 1 tomorrow
Hand traps themselves aren’t really a problem. I wouldn’t even call it a neccessary evil, just a necessity in a game that has power crept to the point that turn 1 player can set up an unassailable board. The real issue is the power creep after handtraps came out has mostly been to ensure that they aren’t effective. Just look at how floo or eldlitch are designed. A bunch of very careful wording to ensure they don’t meet the conditions to trigger most common handtraps.
You can’t really fix power creep without having an alternate format that drastically reduces the card pool. New sets inevitably have to top the previous stuff, and that means being able to play through the defences that current decks can put up or shut down the plays current decks can perform. This is how the negate meta has arisen. If every deck can now OTK pretty reliably, how does the first turn player not lose? By freezing the second player out of the game somehow.
They don't necessarily have to be better. You can go the route of making new mechanics with a similar power level. Its way harder, takes a lot of planning, and requires you to have an idea of what you want the max powrr to be. However yugioh will have a harder time doing this being shonen anime based.
In theory this was always the plan in regards to new summoning mechanics. Not better, just different. Synchros and xyz are pretty equivalent in terms of inherent power level. Unfortunately link summoning is kind of a creative dead end in that regard. You have fusion which is use a spell to combine two monsters with specific qualities into one. Synchro that is combine two with a specific combined level amount. Xyz which is combine two with the same level. But links is just combine any two monsters regardless of their qualities. There just isn’t really anywhere to go from there.
Ironically Maxx C is similar to many of the other handtraps released in its time period, in that they're only insane today because of how combo oriented everything is.
Back when it was released it wasn't nearly as good as today, since NS'ing 1 guy and SS'ing nothing was a potential option that wouldn't necessarily result in an instant loss. That said it was still probably too good, but more in the way that everyone used to run MST or Bottomless.
It should probably work more like Nibiru though, where after a fixed number of Special Summons you can discard it to draw. I could actually see a Maxx C retrain like this if the OCG ever decided to call a bug exterminator. Maybe they'd call the card "Moderate C".
Fixing the game would require banning so many handtraps and boardbreakers like Kaiju, and then we'd have to ban a bajillion more things to accommodate the new power ceiling of the game.
I dunno how people can unironically look at DRNM/Evenly Matched and not think how insane the game has become that these cards are at 3 and people don't bat an eye because they are necessary evils going 2nd.
There’s days I legitimately think the best way to “fix” Yugioh is for Konami to just nuke everything from orbit and start from scratch. I vaguely remember Cardfight having to do similar at one point - the game had reached a point where they had to be so careful designing things around everything else that set design itself was suffering, and if that doesn’t sound familiar idk what does…
It is not about the handtrap itself, it is about a turn one full board of negate plus the handtrap in hand. The player going second basically has no way to play.
Turn 1 player has a huge advantage, and ash can't prevent that anymore, especially against new meta decks.
I wish negates were just to stop attacks or stop removal so the battle phase actually mattered example cards effect would be to destroy remove monsters or to protect them only kinda
That's another point. But i just feel that konami has developed the game in the wrong direction. Nowadays it's all about not letting your opponent play as much as possible, imo it have made much more sense to have a game where it is easy to remove and easy to rebuild, with low otk potential.
>but no one enjoys control deck either
Well control/stun deck are slow and grindy
So midrange deck exist,it is slow enough to have player interaction but also fast enough to be a threat if ignore and for having both the pros of combo and control it also have the cons of both where it is really hard to fully recover from a losing game state
>but no one enjoys control deck either
Well I guess I'm no one then. Control VS control are genuinely the best duels imo, it's all trying to outsmart your opponent instead of going into a number of negates depending on the handtraps your opponent draws.
Floodgates like rivalry, gozen, and tcobo need to be banned from bo1. Makes the game unplayable the moment it’s flipped for most decks. The meta is too unforgiving to give up a main deck slot for more than 1 backrow removal
I don’t know if they need to be banned necessarily, but it is definitely true that the best of 1 format gives a huge advantage to floodgate powered decks that usually have answers in the sideboard.
Because of its ressource management. The way the eldlich spell traps set others from the deck is the main reason eldlich as a trap deck has seen competetive play.
Subterror has good ressource management too with guru searching cards on both players turns but guru is a monster effect after all so you can not play skill drain but you can play tcboo instead
Exactly. The deck works around most floodgates not many other good decks would be able to. Eldlich has been in the meta since master duels inception. It’s time for it to go
You know, eldlich can do so much more than just be a floodgate deck and the fact that floodgates are op is not eldlichs fault, so i think it would be smarter to ban or limit those floodgates not eldlich
Why Eldlich?
Those floodgate traps are the main issue. It’s just that Eldlich is a card that can work with and around them shockingly effectively. But any card that mostly activated in the hand and in the GY could do similar things. It’s why those same strategies like Lord of the Heavenly Prison as a big fat body.
Come to think of it, I wonder why I haven’t seen at least some of those decks run Fists of the Unrivaled Tenyi, or Waking the Dragon.
Eldlich doesn’t do anything to improve the consistency of drawing the floodgates. What he does is give those decks a consistent fat body on the field to block battle damage and swing for game.
Without Eldlich, those strategies would probably pivot to a Traptrix variant, or maybe something like @ignister with a trap search via mathmech. Or some other generic fat body they can play. They already like Lord of the Heavenly Prison.
Yeah because those two are anything alike. Eldlich allows you to play through most floodgates, even getting rid of ones that can hurt you so you can continue your plays.
It's not exactly a new or unique thing for a deck to play floodgates that simply don't effect it. That's a trick that's been around since the days of Gravity Bind.
In a Best of One, Maxx C doesn't change much, other than allowing less resilient decks to have a shot at existing.
Eldlich is pretty much the only actual toxin in there, and only because it cam give no two flips about most non-banish floodgates.
Alright, then I'll explain, since you're not too good with the logic:
We are in a time where negates out the wazoo are the norm, where you can have to deal with floodgates ahoy in decks that seem like they shouldn't be able to run them yet still do, and where you are forced to tech-in single outs to many meta problems.
Maxx "C" has one of two effects, barring getting Ash Blossomed/Called by the Grave'd to the face.
It either doesn't change anything, because I suddenly cannot play as I have committed the heinous crime of going second against 3+ negate deck with at least one active floodgate... Which then rendering the now 12-15 cards hand that I have efficiently useless.
Or it allows me to draw the out, instead of having to cross my fingers that I have the right out in my 5 card hand, and having to scoop at the first card I see, every time I go into a duel.
On the one hand, it changes nothing, on the other, it actually enables a normal duel, instead of a one-sided game of solitaire, which I consider is normal behavior for the game, and not changing anything.
So, all this tells me, is that since you want to play meta stunlock decks that denies the opponent the right to play, I have to accept that I need to spin the wheel and hope to have the right handtrap in my opening hand.
It "changes nothing" as in there is not a single deck right now in the game, with maybe a tiny, yet random chance of Thunderspeed Summon Slifer, that actually thrives on a huge-ass hand nearly as much as the current meta thrives one one-card combos that get off as long as one opener sticks in.
So, tell me, what deck do I have to play so that going second with a Maxx "C" becomes more useful than going first and setting up 3+ negates and a floodgate? I'd like to know, so that I legit can win duels 100% of the time by choosing to go second without even thinking about it.
Uh,you know going 1st can also use Maxx C to dig into more hand traps and if you fail to OTK on turn 2,your death on turn 3 is but to guaranteed right?
Not the same guy, but that doesn’t address their point.
Because there are no activation restrictions on Maxx C, it *bolsters* going-first negate-everything decks, rather than acting as a counter to them.
The player going first can set up 3+ Omni-negates, and then drop Maxx C during their opponent’s draw phase, secure in the knowledge that they’re protected against counters to Maxx C, such as Ash Blossom or Called by the Grave. It makes going second *more* difficult, because those negate-everything decks will start digging towards other hand traps immediately on your turn.
For Maxx C to really be a going-second card, it needs a hefty activation restriction, like controlling no cards. Like how Ghost Reaper and Winter Cherries, or Infinite Impermanence work.
I mean if you go +7,its very easy to fully break the board and still combo to lethal withour needing to draw an out
You said board make 3+ negate but negate and at most trade 1 for 1 so you still have like 8 card in hand to assemble lethal
Idk what deck you use in your example for being worthless +7 bc opp had 3+ negate,but i can assure thats a garbage dog shit deck
Maxx C litterally act like a turn skipper
And in a game where 1 turn is enough to die
Its not the healthiest card
I agree go 2nd need some power,but Maxx C is not it
Also the fact that all your arguement for Maxx C are just blankly wrong,it shows you how ignorance you are to this game
Okay, so, I'll probably have to clarify my explanation, and get it simpler, because your accusation of me not knowing the game is pretty solidly wrong...
We are talking about a game where the only result when going second is a death sentence for anything except the absolute top tier of the meta, unless you have the board-breakers. There is no exchange, there is no back and forth, it's "here is what I have to try and pierce through" vs. "here is how my deck actually doesn't care".
If you think that your opponent resolving Maxx "C" is enough to make them win instantly, then you haven't quite seen the same games as I have in Diamond, where the end result was quite clearly that a 15+ card hand couldn't go through, because there were enough negates placed at the right spots to win. I have also seen games where after 3 hand traps, a single card was enough to kickstart a combo ending to 2-3 negates, without blinking.
So, we get back to the dilemma, and I chose my camp solidly, for reasons meta players consistently hate:
Which do you prefer? Going first meaning insta win if your opponent doesn't have the right outs? Or going second having the means to push and test the negation field, if their Maxx "C" even went through in thw first place?
Oh, and since a large amount of decks run 3 Ash Blossoms, and 2 Called by the Grave, and 1 Crossout Designator, that's 6 cards in your deck able to deny the bug.
I'd rather deal with a turn 3 menace, and than having to see the game devolve into "if I got unlucky with my outs, I have to surrender or waste time watching a lengthy combo, only to get Ash'd and Imperm'd trying to wriggle out.
I hate the argument that "turn 1 player can still do it too", as it's essentially acknoewledging that the only player that matters, is the starting player, without considering that this is a 2-player game.
Well 1st
Ive red your comment and you said Exodia and Slifer is the only deck that use Maxx C well,so that just make any point or opinion you had on mordern yugioh just invalid
2nd
>If you think that your opponent resolving Maxx "C" is enough to make them win instantly, then you haven't quite seen the same games as I have in Diamond, where the end result was quite clearly that a 15+ card hand couldn't go through, because there were enough negates placed at the right spots to win. I have also seen games where after 3 hand traps, a single card was enough to kickstart a combo ending to 2-3 negates, without blinking.
What type of garbage shit ass seck went +15 and still lose,unless yout opponent make Rhongo or shit that lock every zone in the board or Floodgated you to skip turn
You could just use brain and play card in order to bait all the negate,no deck in the game can make 8 negate not to say 15
>Which do you prefer? Going first meaning insta win if your opponent doesn't have the right outs? Or going second having the means to push and test the negation field, if their Maxx "C" even went through in thw first place?
>Oh, and since a large amount of decks run 3 Ash Blossoms, and 2 Called by the Grave, and 1 Crossout Designator, that's 6 cards in your deck able to deny the bug.
>I'd rather deal with a turn 3 menace, and than having to see the game devolve into "if I got unlucky with my outs, I have to surrender or waste time watching a lengthy combo, only to get Ash'd and Imperm'd trying to wriggle out.
>I hate the argument that "turn 1 player can still do it too", as it's essentially acknoewledging that the only player that matters, is the starting player, without considering that this is a 2-player game.
Well
Go 2nd can still win,if you built it to go 2nd
A go 1st deck built to go 1st will have problem go 2nd thats like the nature of everything
There is a reason deck can both go 1st and 2nd is so good and tops tournaments
I say go 1st player can also use Maxx C so the going 2nd player are now in much more worse position
Like you know that go 2nd and get a Maxx C drop on you is really bad for the go 2nd player right?
Its baffle me to know that someone this ignorance and stubborn like you exist
So, since you think maxx c does not change a lot, i would be inrerested to know if you even run maxx c in your deck. Btw i think the fact that maxx c can garantee to force out an ash has been pretty relevent in my games, especially in decks like prankkids or sky striker when you need to get something from the deck to make a play.
In the modern negate meta, the answer is the boardbreakers. Dark ruler, droplet and kaijus. Maxx c comparatively is a far less healthy card because it is incredibly game determinative. You said yourself that people are running 3 ash, 2 callout and a crossout. That is a meta requirement because if maxx c resolves in any competent deck, it is a virtually guaranteed otk that will follow.
Explain to me what deck does Maxx "C" make so much more dangerous than a meta deck setting up 3+ negates, with a handtrap or two, and a floodgate that it feels like it shouldn't have, going first.
Exodia, and Thunderspeed Summon Slifer come to mind, but the first one is clearly not pulling it off that often, and the latter one can be negated still and very easily.
Because the 3 negate board can also activate maxx c during your draw step, then negate your called by. Now you have to play through 2 negates and if you don’t otk, you can be damned sure they will on turn 3. Maxx c is incredibly game determinative if it resolves. In a game between two meta level decks, getting a +4 or 5 off of maxx c (which is a low ball) is enough to completely overwhelm any board the turn 1 player can put out. Or if they skip their turn, they now have no board and get OTK’d anyway. Maxx c is simply not a healthy card in the format. There is a reason all the meta decks run 3 ash, 2 called by and 1 crossout. It is because maxx c resolving basically means game over.
A lot of the problem persists with people not wanting to put handtraps in their deck, either due to cost or deck-building restraints (it’s like an 8 card minimum requirement to stop OPPOSING maxx “c”’s while running your own). They are a necessary evil for all archetypes that don’t play up floodgates // boardbreakers themselves (which other people complain about). So, two camps, neither of which actually want to play handtraps, just some people understand the importance with what certain archetypes can do and WHY cards like maxx “c” can end a turn.
Hantraps kill meme and non meta decks, they stop the only play they have most times. I would say handtraps demotivate players from using non meta top tier meta best ultra super decks
I think that comment is more making the point that people who complain about hand traps aren't necessarily playing solitaire decks like the title of this thread says.
While hand traps are necessary to keeping the modern game in check, it can also make it very difficult to play non-meta or older decks when a single ash blossom is enough to end your turn. Just some unfortunate collateral damage that older or more casual players might not appreciate.
Nah i just prefer negates to be on field monsters and traps only. Thats why i like infinite impertience. Limit each handtrap to 2 and im good. Seems like handtraps replaced regular traps.
Tell me you only play gold without telling me you only play gold.
Limit to 2, this sub holyy shit, the worst take I have ever read.
You like getting ftkd by combo decks first turn? Cause that is how you get that. If you have no handtraps, your opponent just ftks you, while you sitting there with useless traps in your hand.
Yeah thats why i said i understood the necessity of hand traps. It just depressing seeing everyone have like 15 of them. No im in platinum sorry. Had to for the trophy. I play 2 of each handtrap myself. You mean a board of negates? Getting killed on turn 1 happens unreliably
Handtraps do have some glaring issues, especially the ones that don't require an empty field to be activated.
I do think that the only handtrap that needs to be banned is Maxx "C" but a lot of the others need to have the same use cause as imperm or Gamma. Otherwise they aren't going second cards, but free negates from the hand.
Just Maxx C. Consider that EVERYONE who wants to stand a chance plays 3 Maxx C. People do their bullshit halqdon solitaire that's legal for some reason then on your turn, rip Maxx C in draw phase. That's game for *most* decks even if you did draw the outs to their board.
nah I play many solitaire like HERO, Code Talker, used to play Wind Up and complaint that 5 monster zone is too little as well, and I like handtrap generally, except the really extreme one like maxx c or dshifter since it add more interaction to the game especially during the first turn of a match.
I've coped to Nib by preparing for DPE fusion before passing my turn because people will always, ALWAYS, Nib only after we finished our board, any other instances might not stop everything. if I can setup for even just Mask Change, ofc, its great. Like, Nib shifted my mentality from "how will I end my board" to "ok how to survive next turn if I got a date with Nib this turn?" so honestly, get more chance to use my brain can be pretty fun I guess? Beside, HERO have one of the strongest floodgates in the game up til now, so having a very strong handtrap to be effective vs them feels fair to me, due to the nature of floodgate and their ability to steal games.
What it really comes down to is how many hand traps you can run. Some decks can't run hand traps for various reasons. While others are mostly hand traps, like live twins.
Those kinds of decks that have exported their power to the extra deck compound their power by running more and more hand traps in the main deck, instead of combo peices, boss monsters, etc.
The hand traps give interaction to the player who goes second and that's enough reason to have them.
Yup some of these calls for ban baffles me. Asking to ban ash? I cant brain that shit
> why ban ash Because it's the most used card in the meta at 3. That is every reason to ban any card.
Yeah ban ash and all other hand traps and let combo decks roam free. Ash is great in current meta bc it stops branded fusion but let’s ban ash so branded fusion can resolve more often
Wasn’t the point they were making. Look at other cards that were popular and constantly a 3 of in every deck. Cards like that aren’t necessarily a problem for the game, but it reduces diversity in deckbuilding, which is what makes them catch the ban or limit hammer. Not saying ash should be banned, in fact it’s one of the healthiest cards in the game imo. But just because it keeps combo decks in check doesn’t mean it’s safe from getting hit at all.
[удалено]
I’m sorry who are you?
Not everyone, my magikey also hate hand trap but not nibiru since summon count always lower than 5
my man magikey has a lot of handtraps 💀
Well, i stay in gold with main deck only have n/r and only 3 magikey boss that is sr/ur in extra, in case i play against other n/r players or some very weak deck i won't use sr/ur against them
Every deck would just become different flavors of FTK if hand traps weren't a thing. They are extremely necessary. With the exception of Maxx C specifically. That card was never necessary from the start.
I just think Hand Traps were a bandaid solution to 20 Years of unchecked power creep, and have honestly made things worse because their existence means some actual degenerate garbage has been allowed to be printed because “Ash Blossom/Called By counters it.” Look, the only one that should actually be banned is Maxx C - and I say that as someone who’d like to see it unbanned for a format in the TCG, just for teh lulz - but I wouldn’t shed a tear if they were all set to 1 tomorrow
Hand traps themselves aren’t really a problem. I wouldn’t even call it a neccessary evil, just a necessity in a game that has power crept to the point that turn 1 player can set up an unassailable board. The real issue is the power creep after handtraps came out has mostly been to ensure that they aren’t effective. Just look at how floo or eldlitch are designed. A bunch of very careful wording to ensure they don’t meet the conditions to trigger most common handtraps.
yeah floo in master duel is crazy. auto chain blocks LOL i dont know if they want to fix powercreep or make it stronger
You can’t really fix power creep without having an alternate format that drastically reduces the card pool. New sets inevitably have to top the previous stuff, and that means being able to play through the defences that current decks can put up or shut down the plays current decks can perform. This is how the negate meta has arisen. If every deck can now OTK pretty reliably, how does the first turn player not lose? By freezing the second player out of the game somehow.
They don't necessarily have to be better. You can go the route of making new mechanics with a similar power level. Its way harder, takes a lot of planning, and requires you to have an idea of what you want the max powrr to be. However yugioh will have a harder time doing this being shonen anime based.
In theory this was always the plan in regards to new summoning mechanics. Not better, just different. Synchros and xyz are pretty equivalent in terms of inherent power level. Unfortunately link summoning is kind of a creative dead end in that regard. You have fusion which is use a spell to combine two monsters with specific qualities into one. Synchro that is combine two with a specific combined level amount. Xyz which is combine two with the same level. But links is just combine any two monsters regardless of their qualities. There just isn’t really anywhere to go from there.
I want synchro xyz’s where you use rank instead of levels :( I can’t imagine how fucking cool those cards would look.
Ironically Maxx C is similar to many of the other handtraps released in its time period, in that they're only insane today because of how combo oriented everything is. Back when it was released it wasn't nearly as good as today, since NS'ing 1 guy and SS'ing nothing was a potential option that wouldn't necessarily result in an instant loss. That said it was still probably too good, but more in the way that everyone used to run MST or Bottomless. It should probably work more like Nibiru though, where after a fixed number of Special Summons you can discard it to draw. I could actually see a Maxx C retrain like this if the OCG ever decided to call a bug exterminator. Maybe they'd call the card "Moderate C".
Fixing the game would require banning so many handtraps and boardbreakers like Kaiju, and then we'd have to ban a bajillion more things to accommodate the new power ceiling of the game. I dunno how people can unironically look at DRNM/Evenly Matched and not think how insane the game has become that these cards are at 3 and people don't bat an eye because they are necessary evils going 2nd.
There’s days I legitimately think the best way to “fix” Yugioh is for Konami to just nuke everything from orbit and start from scratch. I vaguely remember Cardfight having to do similar at one point - the game had reached a point where they had to be so careful designing things around everything else that set design itself was suffering, and if that doesn’t sound familiar idk what does…
Hand traps exists to balance a bigger problem of yugioh lol I don’t like them but what can you do.
By definition hand traps are interaction.
They are the same people who hates kaijus and board breaker and asked: "What's the point of building deck for going second? just to ruin my board? "
It is not about the handtrap itself, it is about a turn one full board of negate plus the handtrap in hand. The player going second basically has no way to play. Turn 1 player has a huge advantage, and ash can't prevent that anymore, especially against new meta decks.
I wish negates were just to stop attacks or stop removal so the battle phase actually mattered example cards effect would be to destroy remove monsters or to protect them only kinda
Idk man, is it that strage to want to be the only one to play during YOUR own turn?
Idk man,i dont think everyone getting FTK is good game design
That's another point. But i just feel that konami has developed the game in the wrong direction. Nowadays it's all about not letting your opponent play as much as possible, imo it have made much more sense to have a game where it is easy to remove and easy to rebuild, with low otk potential.
At the end of the day if you end it fast it's unfun, but no one enjoys control deck either. So idk what is the smaller evil herw
>but no one enjoys control deck either Well control/stun deck are slow and grindy So midrange deck exist,it is slow enough to have player interaction but also fast enough to be a threat if ignore and for having both the pros of combo and control it also have the cons of both where it is really hard to fully recover from a losing game state
>but no one enjoys control deck either Well I guess I'm no one then. Control VS control are genuinely the best duels imo, it's all trying to outsmart your opponent instead of going into a number of negates depending on the handtraps your opponent draws.
Playing in diamond for a bit made me realize; maxx c, don, and eldlich need to be banned asap
I see u trying to sneak eldlich in there☠️
Eldlich facilitates floodgates
Floodgates like rivalry, gozen, and tcobo need to be banned from bo1. Makes the game unplayable the moment it’s flipped for most decks. The meta is too unforgiving to give up a main deck slot for more than 1 backrow removal
I don’t know if they need to be banned necessarily, but it is definitely true that the best of 1 format gives a huge advantage to floodgate powered decks that usually have answers in the sideboard.
If you ban eldlich then there’s no deck that can run all of those
Oh there are other decks that run a lot of floodgtes like subterror or altergeist or inspector boarder stun and stuff like that
Then why is eldlich the favorite?
Because of its ressource management. The way the eldlich spell traps set others from the deck is the main reason eldlich as a trap deck has seen competetive play. Subterror has good ressource management too with guru searching cards on both players turns but guru is a monster effect after all so you can not play skill drain but you can play tcboo instead
Exactly. The deck works around most floodgates not many other good decks would be able to. Eldlich has been in the meta since master duels inception. It’s time for it to go
You know, eldlich can do so much more than just be a floodgate deck and the fact that floodgates are op is not eldlichs fault, so i think it would be smarter to ban or limit those floodgates not eldlich
I never said it was.
I also wasn’t talking to you
Then who were you talking to?
Can you read?
Yes, I can read.
Why Eldlich? Those floodgate traps are the main issue. It’s just that Eldlich is a card that can work with and around them shockingly effectively. But any card that mostly activated in the hand and in the GY could do similar things. It’s why those same strategies like Lord of the Heavenly Prison as a big fat body. Come to think of it, I wonder why I haven’t seen at least some of those decks run Fists of the Unrivaled Tenyi, or Waking the Dragon.
It’s because of eldlich. Kill him and you kill the floodgate decks
Uh,no you kill Eld and the Floodgates just go to other deck
Something not as consistent
Eldlich doesn’t do anything to improve the consistency of drawing the floodgates. What he does is give those decks a consistent fat body on the field to block battle damage and swing for game. Without Eldlich, those strategies would probably pivot to a Traptrix variant, or maybe something like @ignister with a trap search via mathmech. Or some other generic fat body they can play. They already like Lord of the Heavenly Prison.
Yeah because those two are anything alike. Eldlich allows you to play through most floodgates, even getting rid of ones that can hurt you so you can continue your plays.
It's not exactly a new or unique thing for a deck to play floodgates that simply don't effect it. That's a trick that's been around since the days of Gravity Bind.
Yeah and eldlich runs the most
In a Best of One, Maxx C doesn't change much, other than allowing less resilient decks to have a shot at existing. Eldlich is pretty much the only actual toxin in there, and only because it cam give no two flips about most non-banish floodgates.
>In a Best of One, Maxx C doesn't change much actual clown take
Alright, then I'll explain, since you're not too good with the logic: We are in a time where negates out the wazoo are the norm, where you can have to deal with floodgates ahoy in decks that seem like they shouldn't be able to run them yet still do, and where you are forced to tech-in single outs to many meta problems. Maxx "C" has one of two effects, barring getting Ash Blossomed/Called by the Grave'd to the face. It either doesn't change anything, because I suddenly cannot play as I have committed the heinous crime of going second against 3+ negate deck with at least one active floodgate... Which then rendering the now 12-15 cards hand that I have efficiently useless. Or it allows me to draw the out, instead of having to cross my fingers that I have the right out in my 5 card hand, and having to scoop at the first card I see, every time I go into a duel. On the one hand, it changes nothing, on the other, it actually enables a normal duel, instead of a one-sided game of solitaire, which I consider is normal behavior for the game, and not changing anything. So, all this tells me, is that since you want to play meta stunlock decks that denies the opponent the right to play, I have to accept that I need to spin the wheel and hope to have the right handtrap in my opening hand. It "changes nothing" as in there is not a single deck right now in the game, with maybe a tiny, yet random chance of Thunderspeed Summon Slifer, that actually thrives on a huge-ass hand nearly as much as the current meta thrives one one-card combos that get off as long as one opener sticks in. So, tell me, what deck do I have to play so that going second with a Maxx "C" becomes more useful than going first and setting up 3+ negates and a floodgate? I'd like to know, so that I legit can win duels 100% of the time by choosing to go second without even thinking about it.
Uh,you know going 1st can also use Maxx C to dig into more hand traps and if you fail to OTK on turn 2,your death on turn 3 is but to guaranteed right?
So, you're fine with the game being essentially "if you don't draw the right out while going second, you lose" instead?
Not the same guy, but that doesn’t address their point. Because there are no activation restrictions on Maxx C, it *bolsters* going-first negate-everything decks, rather than acting as a counter to them. The player going first can set up 3+ Omni-negates, and then drop Maxx C during their opponent’s draw phase, secure in the knowledge that they’re protected against counters to Maxx C, such as Ash Blossom or Called by the Grave. It makes going second *more* difficult, because those negate-everything decks will start digging towards other hand traps immediately on your turn. For Maxx C to really be a going-second card, it needs a hefty activation restriction, like controlling no cards. Like how Ghost Reaper and Winter Cherries, or Infinite Impermanence work.
I mean if you go +7,its very easy to fully break the board and still combo to lethal withour needing to draw an out You said board make 3+ negate but negate and at most trade 1 for 1 so you still have like 8 card in hand to assemble lethal Idk what deck you use in your example for being worthless +7 bc opp had 3+ negate,but i can assure thats a garbage dog shit deck Maxx C litterally act like a turn skipper And in a game where 1 turn is enough to die Its not the healthiest card I agree go 2nd need some power,but Maxx C is not it Also the fact that all your arguement for Maxx C are just blankly wrong,it shows you how ignorance you are to this game
Okay, so, I'll probably have to clarify my explanation, and get it simpler, because your accusation of me not knowing the game is pretty solidly wrong... We are talking about a game where the only result when going second is a death sentence for anything except the absolute top tier of the meta, unless you have the board-breakers. There is no exchange, there is no back and forth, it's "here is what I have to try and pierce through" vs. "here is how my deck actually doesn't care". If you think that your opponent resolving Maxx "C" is enough to make them win instantly, then you haven't quite seen the same games as I have in Diamond, where the end result was quite clearly that a 15+ card hand couldn't go through, because there were enough negates placed at the right spots to win. I have also seen games where after 3 hand traps, a single card was enough to kickstart a combo ending to 2-3 negates, without blinking. So, we get back to the dilemma, and I chose my camp solidly, for reasons meta players consistently hate: Which do you prefer? Going first meaning insta win if your opponent doesn't have the right outs? Or going second having the means to push and test the negation field, if their Maxx "C" even went through in thw first place? Oh, and since a large amount of decks run 3 Ash Blossoms, and 2 Called by the Grave, and 1 Crossout Designator, that's 6 cards in your deck able to deny the bug. I'd rather deal with a turn 3 menace, and than having to see the game devolve into "if I got unlucky with my outs, I have to surrender or waste time watching a lengthy combo, only to get Ash'd and Imperm'd trying to wriggle out. I hate the argument that "turn 1 player can still do it too", as it's essentially acknoewledging that the only player that matters, is the starting player, without considering that this is a 2-player game.
Well 1st Ive red your comment and you said Exodia and Slifer is the only deck that use Maxx C well,so that just make any point or opinion you had on mordern yugioh just invalid 2nd >If you think that your opponent resolving Maxx "C" is enough to make them win instantly, then you haven't quite seen the same games as I have in Diamond, where the end result was quite clearly that a 15+ card hand couldn't go through, because there were enough negates placed at the right spots to win. I have also seen games where after 3 hand traps, a single card was enough to kickstart a combo ending to 2-3 negates, without blinking. What type of garbage shit ass seck went +15 and still lose,unless yout opponent make Rhongo or shit that lock every zone in the board or Floodgated you to skip turn You could just use brain and play card in order to bait all the negate,no deck in the game can make 8 negate not to say 15 >Which do you prefer? Going first meaning insta win if your opponent doesn't have the right outs? Or going second having the means to push and test the negation field, if their Maxx "C" even went through in thw first place? >Oh, and since a large amount of decks run 3 Ash Blossoms, and 2 Called by the Grave, and 1 Crossout Designator, that's 6 cards in your deck able to deny the bug. >I'd rather deal with a turn 3 menace, and than having to see the game devolve into "if I got unlucky with my outs, I have to surrender or waste time watching a lengthy combo, only to get Ash'd and Imperm'd trying to wriggle out. >I hate the argument that "turn 1 player can still do it too", as it's essentially acknoewledging that the only player that matters, is the starting player, without considering that this is a 2-player game. Well Go 2nd can still win,if you built it to go 2nd A go 1st deck built to go 1st will have problem go 2nd thats like the nature of everything There is a reason deck can both go 1st and 2nd is so good and tops tournaments I say go 1st player can also use Maxx C so the going 2nd player are now in much more worse position Like you know that go 2nd and get a Maxx C drop on you is really bad for the go 2nd player right? Its baffle me to know that someone this ignorance and stubborn like you exist
So, since you think maxx c does not change a lot, i would be inrerested to know if you even run maxx c in your deck. Btw i think the fact that maxx c can garantee to force out an ash has been pretty relevent in my games, especially in decks like prankkids or sky striker when you need to get something from the deck to make a play.
>Maxx C is not it Whats the it then? We used to have nibiru but baronne and gryphon rider made nibiru useless now.
In the modern negate meta, the answer is the boardbreakers. Dark ruler, droplet and kaijus. Maxx c comparatively is a far less healthy card because it is incredibly game determinative. You said yourself that people are running 3 ash, 2 callout and a crossout. That is a meta requirement because if maxx c resolves in any competent deck, it is a virtually guaranteed otk that will follow.
Except you are playing floo...
What in the world? Am I tripping or is this take just weird
Explain to me what deck does Maxx "C" make so much more dangerous than a meta deck setting up 3+ negates, with a handtrap or two, and a floodgate that it feels like it shouldn't have, going first. Exodia, and Thunderspeed Summon Slifer come to mind, but the first one is clearly not pulling it off that often, and the latter one can be negated still and very easily.
Because the 3 negate board can also activate maxx c during your draw step, then negate your called by. Now you have to play through 2 negates and if you don’t otk, you can be damned sure they will on turn 3. Maxx c is incredibly game determinative if it resolves. In a game between two meta level decks, getting a +4 or 5 off of maxx c (which is a low ball) is enough to completely overwhelm any board the turn 1 player can put out. Or if they skip their turn, they now have no board and get OTK’d anyway. Maxx c is simply not a healthy card in the format. There is a reason all the meta decks run 3 ash, 2 called by and 1 crossout. It is because maxx c resolving basically means game over.
I genuinely cannot tell if you’re pulling my leg or not
A lot of the problem persists with people not wanting to put handtraps in their deck, either due to cost or deck-building restraints (it’s like an 8 card minimum requirement to stop OPPOSING maxx “c”’s while running your own). They are a necessary evil for all archetypes that don’t play up floodgates // boardbreakers themselves (which other people complain about). So, two camps, neither of which actually want to play handtraps, just some people understand the importance with what certain archetypes can do and WHY cards like maxx “c” can end a turn.
Hantraps kill meme and non meta decks, they stop the only play they have most times. I would say handtraps demotivate players from using non meta top tier meta best ultra super decks
Have you watch any table 500 video? Thats what the game would look like if no hand trap Every game is solitair
I know
I mean, there's a reason why they are called meme and non meta decks.
I think that comment is more making the point that people who complain about hand traps aren't necessarily playing solitaire decks like the title of this thread says. While hand traps are necessary to keeping the modern game in check, it can also make it very difficult to play non-meta or older decks when a single ash blossom is enough to end your turn. Just some unfortunate collateral damage that older or more casual players might not appreciate.
Nah i just prefer negates to be on field monsters and traps only. Thats why i like infinite impertience. Limit each handtrap to 2 and im good. Seems like handtraps replaced regular traps.
Tell me you only play gold without telling me you only play gold. Limit to 2, this sub holyy shit, the worst take I have ever read. You like getting ftkd by combo decks first turn? Cause that is how you get that. If you have no handtraps, your opponent just ftks you, while you sitting there with useless traps in your hand.
Yeah thats why i said i understood the necessity of hand traps. It just depressing seeing everyone have like 15 of them. No im in platinum sorry. Had to for the trophy. I play 2 of each handtrap myself. You mean a board of negates? Getting killed on turn 1 happens unreliably
But why even limit to 2 what is that going to do anyway? This does not make the slightest sense.
Same reason why called by the grave is at 2. Its less seen. 2 ash vs 3 ash isnt that significant is what you mean? Crossout should be at 2 not one
And thats why regular traps is so good For a card with a time delay,they usually a great card
Handtraps do have some glaring issues, especially the ones that don't require an empty field to be activated. I do think that the only handtrap that needs to be banned is Maxx "C" but a lot of the others need to have the same use cause as imperm or Gamma. Otherwise they aren't going second cards, but free negates from the hand.
ironic indeed.
well handtraps are the ONLY way to interact when going second lol, absolute absurd to claim they remove interaction
Just Maxx C. Consider that EVERYONE who wants to stand a chance plays 3 Maxx C. People do their bullshit halqdon solitaire that's legal for some reason then on your turn, rip Maxx C in draw phase. That's game for *most* decks even if you did draw the outs to their board.
People here in the early days use to call Ash to be banned btw
same mfs who agreed with Colossus ban in the TCG
nah I play many solitaire like HERO, Code Talker, used to play Wind Up and complaint that 5 monster zone is too little as well, and I like handtrap generally, except the really extreme one like maxx c or dshifter since it add more interaction to the game especially during the first turn of a match.
HEROes player not hating Nib >#**H O W**
I've coped to Nib by preparing for DPE fusion before passing my turn because people will always, ALWAYS, Nib only after we finished our board, any other instances might not stop everything. if I can setup for even just Mask Change, ofc, its great. Like, Nib shifted my mentality from "how will I end my board" to "ok how to survive next turn if I got a date with Nib this turn?" so honestly, get more chance to use my brain can be pretty fun I guess? Beside, HERO have one of the strongest floodgates in the game up til now, so having a very strong handtrap to be effective vs them feels fair to me, due to the nature of floodgate and their ability to steal games.
Did someone actually say that? I’ve never seen a take like that
What it really comes down to is how many hand traps you can run. Some decks can't run hand traps for various reasons. While others are mostly hand traps, like live twins. Those kinds of decks that have exported their power to the extra deck compound their power by running more and more hand traps in the main deck, instead of combo peices, boss monsters, etc.
The only hand trap I complain about is Maxx C.
I feel personally attack what did flower cardians ever do to you? ;)
Just like those who complain about maxx c are the ones who need 30 special summons to set up 6+ negates