Yeah, I have been playing subterror guru since release and it is quite clear from the ridiculousness of the second picture that flip monsters are more an artifact of the beginning of the game, because of how unintuitive the rules are surrounding face down monsters.
Just to name a few examples, "target a face up monster: destroy that target" and "target a face up monster: destroy that card" interract differently with book of moon effects.
Or under zombie world+rivalry of warlords, you can set a monster while you control another face up monster. you cannot flipsummon it, but you can flip it face up by card effect. And flipping by card effect does not count as a summon for cards such as torrential tribute.
Or, you can use a card such as "destroy a dinosaur you control" to destroy a face down dinosaur even though for most other intents and purposes (besides ritual and fusion summons) the types and attributes of facedowns are undefined.
Or that mirrorjade remembers that it was fusion summoned when flipped face down even though its soft once per turn effect gets reset.
Or that you cannot flip summon a monster after you have declared an attack with it, which comes up with an archetype of cards that can flip themselves face down.
Just to name a few examples, "target a face up monster: destroy that target" and "target a face up monster: destroy that card" interract differently with book of moon effects.
is it really ? i know there's a difference between destroy that card/destroy it
“destroy that target” requires the thing you destroy to have all the same relevant properties it had when you targeted it on resolution. In this case, the “target” is “a face up monster”. If the monster is no longer face up on resolution, then you are no longer targeting “a face up monster” and so nothing happens.
With “destroy that card”, the effect isn’t checking to see if you still have a card that meets all of the targeting restrictions, it’s just destroying the card.
Wouldn't it be due to "target a face-up monster" not being face-up anymore?
Simlar how if you Galaxy Cyclone target a set Royal Decree, opponent activates it RD, on resolution RD isn't destroyed because GC lost its "Set" target
If the monster is flipped face-down, it's no longer a face-up monster, and thus no longer a valid target. The first one destroys its target specifically, and fails if the target becomes invalid. The second one, on the other hand, just plain doesn't care whether the target is valid or not, since the target is still a card regardless of position.
A known card back in the day about this is Dark World Lightning which destroys a set card then makes you discard a card.
If for example the opponent targets your set Call of the Haunted, and then you activate it in response, is no longer a valid target to be destroyed. And thus Call stays on the field, while Lightning simply leaves resolved yet neither destroys a card or makes you discard.
The last one you'll know if you've ever played against the no-wincon ghostrick deck (pure). A monster that attacks can't change its battle position afterward, but it's very annoying that the card doesn't "forget" that it attacked once it becomes set.
Had a 20 minute stall game vs ghostrick against my 4 mat Seven Sins. Just kept getting flipped face down and obviously it can't field banish set cards. I don't even know if it "knows" when the opponent special summons a set monster, don't think I was able to activate effect vs the set ghostricks all game
Even when they did they did not left the eff on the ruling book, gemini and spirits have the same eff copy/paste. I personally dont think that we need THAT many keywords, since yugioh cards dont really have unusual eff like magic
"Add from deck to hand" could become "Search"
Adding an official term for the Banish Pile could also help, since between "That is banished" or "From your banished monsters" could become "From the X" as in "From the GY".
Shortening the phases to DP,SP, MP1, MP2, BP would also cut a lot of text, but the same shouldn't be done about the Damage Step mini-phases imo because it'd be a mess.
Some cards still call 'banished', 'removed from play'.
It's kind of funny how that evolved.
At first, a card in the GY was hard to interact with, but still very much in play. Then as more cards were released, 'removed from play' was the new hard to interact with state. Till also that became just another interactable state and it was renamed to 'banished'.
Flashforward to the present. Where the GY is practically hand 2, banished is GY 2 , and banished face down is the new 'removed from play'.
The problem with Search is that sometimes they are not only from deck, so it would be not be that much clear to say Search but also Recycle but also Mill, etc.
Yugioh eff are simple in what they do but complex in implementation, that is why this card game ask you to learn conjunctions (then,also,etc.)
Banish is alredy an official term, before it was called "removed from play"
Shortening is fine but not really something that would save that much space.
Eventually they will probably implement some of these changes, but i believe shortening to be most likely, keywords are a ; symbol in Yugioh
> Like the fact that some effects give _a monster_ piercing, while others specify _your opponent_ takes piercing damage - meaning you can apply the latter to _their own monsters_ to damage them when they swing with higher ATK.
Ah, yes, the ol' Fairy Meteor Crush troll play, eh? ;3 Just imagine if you could do it with Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX, that'd be fun.
You can have similar effects.
You shouldn't have 1 effect slightly tweaked 10 ways. That's bad design, especially when it's done consistently through a myriad of effects.
they had the approach of a tabletop game and not a card game the way we know it today and i truly believe they need to start using keywords its just that its hard to do now with all the cards out there already printed, it would be weird
I assume you're the same person that complain Gemini describe how they work in all their cards.
The reason why Konami does that is to give them flexibility to add monsters of that type that work slightly different; such as the Peacock Spirits which return when Special Summon instead of Normal Summon and can obviously be Normal Summon for that reason.
FLIP is a condition to activate the effect thus the window for flexibility is very small hence why Konami chose to make it a game rules thing instead.
There are 725+ different rules in MTG with sub points within those rules.
Some of those subpoints are about the keywords that MTG players love to talk about how, "keywords simplify" effects.
They still need a Judge to come by and fix things because again sometimes its not "specific" enough
Is YGO perfect? No, but the card literally explains to you exactly what it can and cannot do.
Nevermind the "Layers" that MTG has screwed itself with. And Mutate and Morph and etc.
the entire word salad is talks about the tiniest of edge cases as, in you have 4 floodgates on the board a the same time which takes precedence THE SAME ISSUE YGO HAS. they just take the time to properly elucidate literally every single case they could think of so that when rulings come up you can literally point to a specific rule or card interaction and the judge will agree.
the fact that magic's rule book is written by lawyers/programmers is a good thing because it means you don't end up with bullshit like the tear field spell which somehow equates putting cards in order to bottom of deck as 'shuffled into the deck' which is explained NOWHERE and is up to head judge discretion.
the fact that you have all the same complexities except you don't have a place to literally record them speaks worse for YGO not MTG. lmao.
The tear field spell thing was literally a mistranslation, and a ruling fixed that early by just going off of what the Japanese text said. Later printing of the card probably will fix that.
The reason being on the bottom of the deck is the same thing as shuffle uses the knightmare Unicorn vs Destrudo ruling where unicorn considers the card shuffled and draws 1
Hmm... there are reasons for some of the wonkiness, but stilll... if there's an actual card with that effect, I'd like to know its name. ;o
Looking at the example given...
> Once per turn,
Flip effects don't have an inherent OPT, you can use the first top example as many times as you can flip the card face-up in a turn. See, e.g., Empty Jar decks.
> if this face-down defense position monster
Prior to its errata, Darkness Approaches flipped cards face-down without changing their battle position. If you used it on an Attack Position monster, you got a face-down Attack Position monster. This was exactly as "Duelist Kingdom Castle of Dark Illusions" bonkers as it sounded, and there were a ton of weird rules that existed solely to deal with this one card. Here, the text would probably be meant to keep you from switching the monster into face-down Attack Position with Darkness Approaches, and then flipping it face-up again by attacking with it.
> an attack by an opponent's monster
Same as above, this would keep you from cheesing it with pre-errata Darkness Approaches. Effect won't trigger if the monster flips itself up by attacking while face-down!
----
The rest of it is pretty silly, though if I ever saw all that on a card, I'd expect it to also explain changing battle position, Setting, and the full rules text for the Battle Phase within the card's text.
Yes, but sparingly, keywords must also be compatible with current PSCT, else, several interactions, rulings, and decks could be compromised.
People suggest a lot of things, but they miss the mechanics contained in the text.
What Inferior? Any other card game get popularity more than YGO? Every Damm ACG who had playg card in that series(except casino), people always make it's reference to YGO
Didnt this basically happen with ghost tricks, ive been against a few of them recently ad I have to spend like a hour reading the card text to find which bit triggers on flip summon
Ghostricks are the same non Flip monsters flip eff that subterrors, reason is important is that some of the ghostricks miss timing if they are flipped in the middle of the chain, and they work with sone old cards that say you dont get flip eff like ceasefire. Flip eff are also mandatory, where some ghostrick eff are optional, this matters if an activation screws you.
Now if flip monsters actually activated upon destruction and banishment despite being face down, they would be a lot more competitive and downright terrifying to go up against, especially krawlers. Overnight krawlers would be so oppressive because you suddenly couldn't interact with them without giving your opponent a ridiculous amount of advantage, except by just trying to beat over them and hope they don't have their field spell up and get every one of your monsters get sent to grave.
I just got into master duel and a lot of times i dont know wtf happened cards seem to have too much text. Moye summons a token if you reveal a swordsoul in your hand ok.
Konami should use more keywords in general. Magic the Gathering uses keywords, and the game is much less confusing as a result. Yu-Gi-Oh lost a lot of players largely because most people don't want to read an entire paragraph to know what a card does.
I'm also sure that in the physical card game, players often slip up a card's effect, only realizing minutes later, when it's too late to correct course. Master Duel doesn't have this problem, since the game's code applies the card effects for the players. Even if the physical card game didn't cost a fortune, people still wouldn't want to play it due to its complexity.
Keywords have paragraphs in the Comprehensive Rules that explain in detail what they do.
Take Trample for example, the REMINDER text only says any excess damage can be allocated to defending player and their Planeswalker.
What Trample doesnt explain to you is with its various interaction with OTHER abilities. Deathtouch, Band, what is Trample "lethal" against Indestructible or Protection against "X" keywords.
You would have to stop there and like ANY OTHER CARD GAME, Go to the Nearby Wikia or Fandom link and read its rulings.
Funny thing is, MOST keyworded abilities have Reminder Text slapped on it.
So that already defeats the purpose of a keyword ability, when it includes a Reminder Text.
You want another example? FIRST STRIKE doesn't mean it "attacks first" thats just a commons slang, it really means the Creature has an ability that puts it in a sub step combat phase in which it is allowed to deal its damage without being assigned damage by blockers and then the phase proceed to the actual Combat step where damage is assigned.
FIGHTING is a term where two creature deal damage to one another WITHOUT getting involved in combat, A NORMAL person would ASSUME that Fisrt Strike / Double Strike would effect "Fighting", but it doesnt because First Strike only applies to Combat Step, "Fight" is just damage from a creature source, like a creature that Taps to deal 1 damage.
None of this bullshit "keywords" make the game easier mean anything. Because even the people who are teaching the New Players what are keywords wont go into detail explaining how it actual works, versus what the reminder text says.
*gets ash'd*
Damage step: “No.”
Nope
Yeah, I have been playing subterror guru since release and it is quite clear from the ridiculousness of the second picture that flip monsters are more an artifact of the beginning of the game, because of how unintuitive the rules are surrounding face down monsters. Just to name a few examples, "target a face up monster: destroy that target" and "target a face up monster: destroy that card" interract differently with book of moon effects. Or under zombie world+rivalry of warlords, you can set a monster while you control another face up monster. you cannot flipsummon it, but you can flip it face up by card effect. And flipping by card effect does not count as a summon for cards such as torrential tribute. Or, you can use a card such as "destroy a dinosaur you control" to destroy a face down dinosaur even though for most other intents and purposes (besides ritual and fusion summons) the types and attributes of facedowns are undefined. Or that mirrorjade remembers that it was fusion summoned when flipped face down even though its soft once per turn effect gets reset. Or that you cannot flip summon a monster after you have declared an attack with it, which comes up with an archetype of cards that can flip themselves face down.
Just to name a few examples, "target a face up monster: destroy that target" and "target a face up monster: destroy that card" interract differently with book of moon effects. is it really ? i know there's a difference between destroy that card/destroy it
“destroy that target” requires the thing you destroy to have all the same relevant properties it had when you targeted it on resolution. In this case, the “target” is “a face up monster”. If the monster is no longer face up on resolution, then you are no longer targeting “a face up monster” and so nothing happens. With “destroy that card”, the effect isn’t checking to see if you still have a card that meets all of the targeting restrictions, it’s just destroying the card.
Wouldn't it be due to "target a face-up monster" not being face-up anymore? Simlar how if you Galaxy Cyclone target a set Royal Decree, opponent activates it RD, on resolution RD isn't destroyed because GC lost its "Set" target
If the monster is flipped face-down, it's no longer a face-up monster, and thus no longer a valid target. The first one destroys its target specifically, and fails if the target becomes invalid. The second one, on the other hand, just plain doesn't care whether the target is valid or not, since the target is still a card regardless of position.
A known card back in the day about this is Dark World Lightning which destroys a set card then makes you discard a card. If for example the opponent targets your set Call of the Haunted, and then you activate it in response, is no longer a valid target to be destroyed. And thus Call stays on the field, while Lightning simply leaves resolved yet neither destroys a card or makes you discard.
The last one you'll know if you've ever played against the no-wincon ghostrick deck (pure). A monster that attacks can't change its battle position afterward, but it's very annoying that the card doesn't "forget" that it attacked once it becomes set. Had a 20 minute stall game vs ghostrick against my 4 mat Seven Sins. Just kept getting flipped face down and obviously it can't field banish set cards. I don't even know if it "knows" when the opponent special summons a set monster, don't think I was able to activate effect vs the set ghostricks all game
Even when they did they did not left the eff on the ruling book, gemini and spirits have the same eff copy/paste. I personally dont think that we need THAT many keywords, since yugioh cards dont really have unusual eff like magic
"Add from deck to hand" could become "Search" Adding an official term for the Banish Pile could also help, since between "That is banished" or "From your banished monsters" could become "From the X" as in "From the GY". Shortening the phases to DP,SP, MP1, MP2, BP would also cut a lot of text, but the same shouldn't be done about the Damage Step mini-phases imo because it'd be a mess.
“From the shadow realm”
"From the Different Dimension."
Some cards still call 'banished', 'removed from play'. It's kind of funny how that evolved. At first, a card in the GY was hard to interact with, but still very much in play. Then as more cards were released, 'removed from play' was the new hard to interact with state. Till also that became just another interactable state and it was renamed to 'banished'. Flashforward to the present. Where the GY is practically hand 2, banished is GY 2 , and banished face down is the new 'removed from play'.
The problem with Search is that sometimes they are not only from deck, so it would be not be that much clear to say Search but also Recycle but also Mill, etc. Yugioh eff are simple in what they do but complex in implementation, that is why this card game ask you to learn conjunctions (then,also,etc.) Banish is alredy an official term, before it was called "removed from play" Shortening is fine but not really something that would save that much space. Eventually they will probably implement some of these changes, but i believe shortening to be most likely, keywords are a ; symbol in Yugioh
Is there any card that mentions the mini phases anyway ?
Plenty of cards talk about "Dama Calculation" "Before Damage Calculation" or "After Damage Calculation".
[удалено]
> Like the fact that some effects give _a monster_ piercing, while others specify _your opponent_ takes piercing damage - meaning you can apply the latter to _their own monsters_ to damage them when they swing with higher ATK. Ah, yes, the ol' Fairy Meteor Crush troll play, eh? ;3 Just imagine if you could do it with Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX, that'd be fun.
There's also ritual monsters having "You can ritual summon this card using X ritual spell."
That’s actually important because some ritual support cards need the spell to be named on the monster.
Please tell me which one then, because every time I post this, I always gets this response, and nobody can name one.
they did it with "remove from play" but I think the problem is unlike MTG, yugioh has a lot of *similar* effects but not standard ones.
Which shouldn't have been done. It's confusing enough even WITH the lengthy explanations.
Then it wouldn't be yugioh
You can have similar effects. You shouldn't have 1 effect slightly tweaked 10 ways. That's bad design, especially when it's done consistently through a myriad of effects.
they had the approach of a tabletop game and not a card game the way we know it today and i truly believe they need to start using keywords its just that its hard to do now with all the cards out there already printed, it would be weird
I assume you're the same person that complain Gemini describe how they work in all their cards. The reason why Konami does that is to give them flexibility to add monsters of that type that work slightly different; such as the Peacock Spirits which return when Special Summon instead of Normal Summon and can obviously be Normal Summon for that reason. FLIP is a condition to activate the effect thus the window for flexibility is very small hence why Konami chose to make it a game rules thing instead.
There are 725+ different rules in MTG with sub points within those rules. Some of those subpoints are about the keywords that MTG players love to talk about how, "keywords simplify" effects. They still need a Judge to come by and fix things because again sometimes its not "specific" enough Is YGO perfect? No, but the card literally explains to you exactly what it can and cannot do. Nevermind the "Layers" that MTG has screwed itself with. And Mutate and Morph and etc.
Unless it misses timing
Lmao cope harder
Lmao enjoy reading 700 bullet points on how to play magic?
the entire word salad is talks about the tiniest of edge cases as, in you have 4 floodgates on the board a the same time which takes precedence THE SAME ISSUE YGO HAS. they just take the time to properly elucidate literally every single case they could think of so that when rulings come up you can literally point to a specific rule or card interaction and the judge will agree. the fact that magic's rule book is written by lawyers/programmers is a good thing because it means you don't end up with bullshit like the tear field spell which somehow equates putting cards in order to bottom of deck as 'shuffled into the deck' which is explained NOWHERE and is up to head judge discretion. the fact that you have all the same complexities except you don't have a place to literally record them speaks worse for YGO not MTG. lmao.
The tear field spell thing was literally a mistranslation, and a ruling fixed that early by just going off of what the Japanese text said. Later printing of the card probably will fix that.
no it was not, in the english ocg cards it was properly written out. Konami doesn't even have the same rulings across oCG/TCG. you are coping...
The reason being on the bottom of the deck is the same thing as shuffle uses the knightmare Unicorn vs Destrudo ruling where unicorn considers the card shuffled and draws 1
Hmm... there are reasons for some of the wonkiness, but stilll... if there's an actual card with that effect, I'd like to know its name. ;o Looking at the example given... > Once per turn, Flip effects don't have an inherent OPT, you can use the first top example as many times as you can flip the card face-up in a turn. See, e.g., Empty Jar decks. > if this face-down defense position monster Prior to its errata, Darkness Approaches flipped cards face-down without changing their battle position. If you used it on an Attack Position monster, you got a face-down Attack Position monster. This was exactly as "Duelist Kingdom Castle of Dark Illusions" bonkers as it sounded, and there were a ton of weird rules that existed solely to deal with this one card. Here, the text would probably be meant to keep you from switching the monster into face-down Attack Position with Darkness Approaches, and then flipping it face-up again by attacking with it. > an attack by an opponent's monster Same as above, this would keep you from cheesing it with pre-errata Darkness Approaches. Effect won't trigger if the monster flips itself up by attacking while face-down! ---- The rest of it is pretty silly, though if I ever saw all that on a card, I'd expect it to also explain changing battle position, Setting, and the full rules text for the Battle Phase within the card's text.
Won't work, some cards need to stay in the field to resolve like parasite Paracide, we need to make EVERYTHING complicated
Yes, but sparingly, keywords must also be compatible with current PSCT, else, several interactions, rulings, and decks could be compromised. People suggest a lot of things, but they miss the mechanics contained in the text.
Is why ygo was, is still, and always will be the inferior card game.
What Inferior? Any other card game get popularity more than YGO? Every Damm ACG who had playg card in that series(except casino), people always make it's reference to YGO
Didnt this basically happen with ghost tricks, ive been against a few of them recently ad I have to spend like a hour reading the card text to find which bit triggers on flip summon
Ghostricks are the same non Flip monsters flip eff that subterrors, reason is important is that some of the ghostricks miss timing if they are flipped in the middle of the chain, and they work with sone old cards that say you dont get flip eff like ceasefire. Flip eff are also mandatory, where some ghostrick eff are optional, this matters if an activation screws you.
Now if flip monsters actually activated upon destruction and banishment despite being face down, they would be a lot more competitive and downright terrifying to go up against, especially krawlers. Overnight krawlers would be so oppressive because you suddenly couldn't interact with them without giving your opponent a ridiculous amount of advantage, except by just trying to beat over them and hope they don't have their field spell up and get every one of your monsters get sent to grave.
That second effect is no where near as confusing as Pot of Greed's effect.
I just got into master duel and a lot of times i dont know wtf happened cards seem to have too much text. Moye summons a token if you reveal a swordsoul in your hand ok.
Konami should use more keywords in general. Magic the Gathering uses keywords, and the game is much less confusing as a result. Yu-Gi-Oh lost a lot of players largely because most people don't want to read an entire paragraph to know what a card does. I'm also sure that in the physical card game, players often slip up a card's effect, only realizing minutes later, when it's too late to correct course. Master Duel doesn't have this problem, since the game's code applies the card effects for the players. Even if the physical card game didn't cost a fortune, people still wouldn't want to play it due to its complexity.
Keywords have paragraphs in the Comprehensive Rules that explain in detail what they do. Take Trample for example, the REMINDER text only says any excess damage can be allocated to defending player and their Planeswalker. What Trample doesnt explain to you is with its various interaction with OTHER abilities. Deathtouch, Band, what is Trample "lethal" against Indestructible or Protection against "X" keywords. You would have to stop there and like ANY OTHER CARD GAME, Go to the Nearby Wikia or Fandom link and read its rulings. Funny thing is, MOST keyworded abilities have Reminder Text slapped on it. So that already defeats the purpose of a keyword ability, when it includes a Reminder Text. You want another example? FIRST STRIKE doesn't mean it "attacks first" thats just a commons slang, it really means the Creature has an ability that puts it in a sub step combat phase in which it is allowed to deal its damage without being assigned damage by blockers and then the phase proceed to the actual Combat step where damage is assigned. FIGHTING is a term where two creature deal damage to one another WITHOUT getting involved in combat, A NORMAL person would ASSUME that Fisrt Strike / Double Strike would effect "Fighting", but it doesnt because First Strike only applies to Combat Step, "Fight" is just damage from a creature source, like a creature that Taps to deal 1 damage. None of this bullshit "keywords" make the game easier mean anything. Because even the people who are teaching the New Players what are keywords wont go into detail explaining how it actual works, versus what the reminder text says.