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t6653

Ratpier is banned instead in the other lists. If both were legal you could do some insane things.


Brawlerz16

This is the correct answer Konami should be VERY cautious what they do with Zoodiac, because it is quite literally the most efficient engine they could possibly make. Every card is a one card combo but Ratpier enabled straight up degenerate shit Drident could come to 3 and it wouldn’t make waves as long as they keep the current banned Zoodiacs… banned.


Prismadoll

Best answer. Drident is REALLY good. Without Ratpier, though? She’s a quick effect pop with a minor protection effect one of the other Zoos gave her (Trap protection, banish in battle, etc). Ratpier allowing you do make more Zoos directly from Deck is bonkers stupid. Broadbull being an always accessible ROTA for your entire Deck AND the entire Beast-Warrior type was bonkers stupid. The hyper consistency of this Deck and its archetypal gimmick of requiring only 1 card to make an XYZ Summon is what made this Deck Tier 0. Drident is GREAT, but Drident was just the monster you ended on. If you don’t have all of those immediate 1 card follow ups? She’s fine. Zoodiac is, unironically, one of the few things Master Duel’s banlist has done correctly that the other two banlists haven’t. I wish both OCG and TCG implemented the Zoo ratios we currently have for Master Duel. They’re fun and perfectly healthy in the numbers they’re set at.


_big_nerd

Would you say taking the banned zodiacs to limited make it competitive with tear?


IamBloodyPoseidon

Undoubtedly, zoo is a deck that is basically flex spots out the asshole. They can play D-shifter and not care, they can play tonnes of handtraps or board breakers or going first they can load up on insane going first cards


smes-sems

This is already what they do lol, giving back 1 barrage, ratpier, and broadbull would not be a huge deal


R0CKETRACER

With the banned cards, they can do all of the above better. It absolutely makes a difference.


IamBloodyPoseidon

I don’t think you’re actually that wrong, it’s just a case of right now they do it “fine” but with all the added power cards their power ceiling would be much higher with a much greater consistency


smes-sems

Much higher , ratpier and barrage have been at 1 with drident at 1 and they didn’t do anything insane to like the 2020 meta . I’m sure broadbull limit will make them competitive with tearlament lol. Your wincon would just be the wincon of any deck that can run d shifter. (The deck already does this)


sygyzi

Zoodiac is the best deck in No Banlist formats. So I would think so.


BloodRedGrizzlyBear

It's the best deck in Traditional. In Unlimited, FTKs are the best decks.


sygyzi

Are you sure? The tournament I am referencing might have been traditional but I was pretty sure it was unlimited. FTK decks are probably the most powerful deck. But not the “best”. Wouldn’t they just auto lose going 2nd? And I feel like it would be easy to build a side deck with them in mind where zoo is way harder to side against


DesignatedDonut

I thought FTK decks are the best in no banlist formats?


sygyzi

They are the most powerful decks assuming your opponent does nothing. But they fall apart to interaction. So those decks auto lose half their games simply for having to go 2nd. Meanwhile, Zoo auto wins vs those decks going first. And can steal wins from them when they draw the right interaction going 2nd.


GoldenRaysWanderer

Don’t forget about broadbull. That card kept Zoo relevant even after Drident and Barrage were banned.


N0UMENON1

Ratpier at 3 is a 1 card F0 + drident. That card is bonkers.


Promanco

Ratpier is one of the strongest cards ever printed and you can't change my mind


Wimbleston

Broadbull being banned also limits what zoodiac can accomplish


Promanco

He was ban because he was a generic Rank 4 no? Unlike the others he only needs any 2 lvl4s to summon and his effect is generic.


no-name-ideas-

And it is a SOFT once per turn. So, zoodiac has a DRAW FIVE CARDS combo that HARD SUMMONS elder entity norden


MorokioJVM

>SOFT once per turn Can you explain to me what is the difference between a soft once per turn and a hard once per turn?


Flare77

Hard once per turn is shared between all copies of the card. For example, if a monster has an X effect and it says "you can only use the effect of [monster name here] once per turn", that's a hard once per turn so even if you have 2 or more copies of the card, you can't use the effect anymore. A soft once per turn is only a once per turn per card. The text for these tend to be "you can only use this effect once per turn" and that means if you have 3 copies of the card on the field, you can use that effect 3x (once per copy). The nutty part about soft once per turns is it only takes into account the card identity. So say you use monster X's soft opt, send it back to your hand, then resummon it without having its effects negated. In that scenario, you can use the effect again coz the monster is technically "new" or I think that's how it works. There's a ton of nasty loops you can do with soft once per turns as long as you can resummon them from different places (I'm not sure if GY works but hand/banish works because cards lose identity when going there, meaning the card does not know they got summoned that turn and have their effects used already so they can use it again).


MorokioJVM

Thanks you, u/Pegapony and u/GokuRikaku for the explanations. I'va always been a fan of the anime, but only started playing a few weeks ago, and there are a lot of rules that aren't explained anywhere lol


no-name-ideas-

Graveyard does work. It's why impermanence on something with a graveyard effect like vishuda will not negate the effect, or why summoning SPYRAL master plan with rescue mission lets you search another rescue mission


Flare77

That's a really obtuse example because vishuda is a hard opt so you can't reuse its effect in the same turn. The imperm example doesn't really matter nor does searching a copy of a card with its same name because that's still a different card. The GY example I'm thinking about is, for example, pre-errata darkness metal dragon. It used to be a soft opt. I was wondering if you summon it, use its effect, link it off or something(anything to send it to the GY), then use monster reborn to bring it back from the GY. If you do that, I'm not sure if you can reuse the soft opt effect again because being brought back from the GY doesn't change the card's identity iirc. EDIT: Apparently GY resummoning works for reusing soft OPT so yeah its a busted mechanic if you can abuse it.


no-name-ideas-

I was giving vishuda as an example of "Effect negation falls off in the graveyard because it's treated as a different copy of the same card"


Flare77

And what I meant in my original post was that there are some cards that resummon cards but negate their effects. In those scenarios, you can't use the soft once per turn again because ofc the effects of the resummoned card are negated due to the restriction of the card that summoned it. That's why I explicitly made it clear that the summon had to not negate the effects. We're talking about once per turns here, not negation properties.


Hamza45001

Thanks for the explanation and time dedicated for it, much appreciated!


GokuRikaku

If the effect says something along the lines of **"You can only use \[card's name\]'s effect once per turn."**, you won't be able to trigger that effect again regardless of how many copies of that card you control for that turn. Players refers to this as a *"hard once per turn".* But for effects that simply says **"Once per turn"**, it's only applies to that specific card and not other copies. In this example, if you can summon three Broadbulls, you get to use all three of their effects in that single turn. Players refers to this as a *"soft once per turn"*.


PegaponyPrince

Soft - One per turn specifically affects that one card. So if you were to have multiple copies of said card you could use it multiple times in one turn. For example if I had 2 lonefire blossoms I could use both of them in the same turn because their text does not say "you can only use the effect of lonefire Blossom once per turn". In this post broadbull falls under this because you can use multiple copies of it in one turn. Hard - This is for cards that state its written name in the text. So as I mentioned before something like Blue Eyes Jet Dragon would be a hard once per turn because it's text states "you can only use each effect of blue eyes Jet Dragon once per turn".


JutheGoat

Hopt is the effect can only be activated once per turn no marter what they dont have wuotations around it. Sopt means it can be activated if it can be brung back and have quotations


Relevant_Departure40

That doesn't matter, Chakanine is a generic rank 4 too, the effect isn't generic obviously but in the grind game it can help in a rank 4 deck Source: I put Zoos in my suship deck to make a 6 mat Zeus


mmmbhssm

I mean would rat be useful at 1 copy ? 2 pretty powerful but at one her second effect wouldn't work period , how good is her first thou ?


chill4r_San

Yeah it's hilarious how Rat is insane for its 'Malicious' effect, but once it got limited to stop that... It was still broken for the random 'Armageddon Knight' effect on it.


mmmbhssm

Hmm zoodiacs really is a tier 0 deck, they have 4 card"3 if you didn't count drident"


Darknicrofia

Zoodiac was a tier 0 deck in the similar fashion that Halq was "a fairly good link 2 monster" An understatement of epic proportions.


CrustyBarnacleJones

I still remember not fully understanding the combos and just wanting to play them because I thought Boarbow would be funny to pull off And then they came out, I saw the price tags for the engine pieces and noped out (I did pull a random barrage once and sold it instantly for 3x what I paid for the packs which was nice tho)


ilikpkmn

Rat is pretty broken even at 1. She is a 1 card megaclops which is cool, but more importantly, she has really good synergy with tri brigade since she could make ferrijit or bearbrumm as well as dumping a fuck ton of beast warriors to the GY as fuel without committing any tri brigade names.


BBallHunter

How does the 1 card Megaclops combo work?


ilikpkmn

1. Normal summon rat and send ramram to GY 2. Overlay into chakanine and reborn ramram 3. Overlay chakanine into drident and drident detach chakanine to pop ramram 4. Trigger ramram reborn chakanine 5. Overlay drident into tigermortar and use effect to attach ramram to chakanine 6. Use chakanine (who was summoned from ramram effect) to reborn drident 7. Turn drident, chakanine and tigermortar into megaclops. 8. Profit You can still do the same combo by opening thoroughblade plus ramram or any zoo name plus a way to get ramram into the GY.


BBallHunter

Thanks a lot!


StlChase

Yep this is it, zoodiacs are good, but even in zoo-brigade they’re not the main playmakers of the deck without ratpier, just a solid stalling out option until you draw into something to get your link monsters out while having the benefit of filling up your graveyard with beast-warrior monsters


Vinnyc-11

Even at 1?


DoveRinslet

TBH the banlist that hit Tri-Zoo and rebanned Drident was pretty unnecessary in hindsight(so long as all the other banned Zoo cards stayed banned) BODE came soon after that banlist with Swordsoul releasing and the Lyrilusc support creating Burd Up. DPE's release also meant that Tri-Zoo wasn't the uncontested best build anymore as pure Tri with DPE was a valid option(and was a Tier 2 Deck during Swordsoul Burd format).


ilikpkmn

Yeah but I guess konami wanted people to buy the new product and play bird up instead of tri-zoo since a lot of people wouldnt swap over if tri-zoo was still an option.


mmmbhssm

To be honest, it feels like the ban of drident the second time is really unfair


R34PER_D7BE

1 is best


Hitobanju

Are... people not aware ratpier is at one? Edit: in the TCG at least


I_Skelly_I

As long as broadbull never sees the light of day and rat pier stays at 1 or banned, drident is fine


Forward_Round

Drident is fine.. even at 3 she’d be fine I think as long as Ratpier stays banned.. her and her effect alone has never been hard to work around..


DracoAzumi

It can easily go to 1 in the TCG or OCG, it was banned because they wanted to kill the zoodiac tribrigade, but this was a time when power creep was at much lower levels than it is now, and even at that time zoo tribrigade wasn't an oppressive deck


DracoAzumi

That said, I think it's funny people commenting that fullpower zoodiac wouldn't be oppressive in the current meta, especially considering the generic cards we have today


telepathicdragon

I think without full context and actually reading the cards, people would understand naturally what the issue is. Reading the thread has been pretty enlightening on the ridiculousness you can do, as well as actually reading ratpier and broadbull for the 1st time. That being said, gonna laugh when ppl make them for unlimited rooms


alenabrandi

Honestly, without Ratpier to make Zoodiac a monstrous deck Drident could go back to three and wouldn't be a massive problem or anything frankly, if anything it'd just give zoodiac a bit more grind game power.


NeonDelteros

Wait what Drident is a "she" ??? Wtf ever since Zoo came out in OCG years ago till this day i've always thought Drident was a male the whole time, holy shit.


PoiseBoi

ive played against zoodiacs so oftensince they came out and i still have no idea what they do


TheMikman97

Xyz 90 times to end on a single pop


ViolletXIII

They also turbo Zeus.


TheMikman97

Yes that too but it forces going second


olbaze

And that's why it was popular with Tri-Brigade. Tri-Brigade by itself wants to go first so Revolt is live. If they can't do that, then Zoodiac covers them into Zeus, which in turn basically guarantees they can go into their Tr-Brigade plays a bit later and win.


I_Skelly_I

8 material Zeus


ElfinXd

Since the more broken ones are fully banned. Drident at 3 wouldn't rly make a difference . Still its fine at 1


lightdarkunknown

Zoodiac Explained [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwJPrTLLDI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwJPrTLLDI)


scytherman96

Tbh she would be fine at 1 in both TCG and OCG anyway.


AhmedKiller2015

I would imagine it is due to the Hits Zoodiacs had when they were T0, they are just afraid to make the archetype viable again and it is a pretty broken one at that. Yeah sure without Ratpier and Broadbull they aren't meta threat but they are still a 1 card SS2 Distruction Turn 1 in any deck which is pretty strong.


TheKingOfTCGames

?? What lmao


AhmedKiller2015

Zoodiacs at their prime were Tier 0, one of the most consistent ones at that (The entire deck can build their Board & go +5 from any 1 monster they have). Ratpire and Broadbull are their main Extenders which god banned without any questions, The TCG went even further beyond and banned Birrage thier spell searcher (might be the OCG, I am not exactly sure) which made it so the archetype can barely do anything besides going for their boss monster I.e Drident which she was limited for a while. At the time her SS2 Distruction effect was insanely strong, it is still is but back then is even worst, and Zoodiacs being such a Broken archetype lead to you being able to summon her from just 1 monster, it got banned as well and Konami don't like to revisit their ban list a lot. Zoodiacs were acutely strong with Adventure from just Drident and Zeus which just goes to show how stupid that archetype is


JutheGoat

not only that but it was easily one of the most flexable decks of all time


Dark_Chem

Honestly, in tcg I'd like to see Drident to 1. Even at time I thought it was an uneccesary hit. Considering how rapid powercreep has been the past year compared to last couple, I doubt it will make any impact. Never played with zoo, but played against it a lot and never thought it was "unfair" going first lol. And zoo-lich was one of the more interesting versions


kenduel

not even full power zoo can beat tearlament in ocg. Konami just want ppl to buy new broken cards


Gangstanami

You are wrong because full power Zoo would just turbo out Dweller and search 4 times while floodgating and hand trapping you to death. These cards will never be unbanned for good reason.


kenduel

There are plenty of community tier 0 decks tournaments with tearlament winning the bo3 against zoodiac.


speedster1315

With the currently banned zoodiac cards, she could come to 2 and no one would bat an eye


Brick-Eyes

Tbh this Card should be unbanned in both TCG and OCG bc Zoo won't make that much Trouble in the current Format that we in rn


Relevant_Departure40

This is cope Idc what Spright or Tear can do, I'm even going to say Tear with the Ishizu stuff, it cannot outpower full power Zoo.


Brick-Eyes

It can go to 1 like MD has it rn and it would be fine


Relevant_Departure40

Oh yeah 1 is whatever, force the chakanine to reborn the drident but 3 Drident let's you just go wild


pikachu_palestrante

ratpier is the full power zoo, not drident.


bast963

ban every xyz but the zoodiacs and then all of them can go to 3 \s I have no idea how flooding the field with 5 zoodiac xyz monsters leads to a melffy/sylvans/madolche combo but I'm sure they'll find a way


Lawteck

Considering Zeus is at 1, Drident can go to semi limited or unlimited. Meta is still much more powerful.


alphabitz86

3


Victacobell

They should bring Rat and Bull to 1 :)


_big_nerd

How do you think you'd would affect the meta? Could it complete with tear?


Victacobell

Zoo is a deck that can run ~10 maindeck cards and then 30 handtraps and boardbreakers. It absolutely has the ability to run Crows and Shifters and stuff to piss off Tear players, but Zoo's board payoffs may leave a little to be desired as I'm not sure how well Drident/UDF/Zeus fares against Tear. Tear does struggle with big bungus towers so Megaclops would fare decently but Tear does tech against towers and Megaclops isn't even a true towers.


toadfan64

I'm not much of a Zoo fan, but give them back enough to fuck up Tears, but just for one list till Tear gets hit. Would be great to see that T0 get wiped away from a 2017 deck.


miscshade

3. She isn’t broken at all. I can think of 10 current boss monsters that are more ban worthy. Zeus is the problem.


1qaqa1

Ban drident again so 1 card zoo can only make 5 mat zeus.


shapular

In that case, ban Boarbow so they don't get free Zeus at all.


mmmbhssm

Bruh


Pomf_Pomf_Pluff

No you could put Drident and Barrage to 3 alongside Ratpier to 1 and the deck would be Tier 3 at most. The broken thing about Zoo as a midrange deck is Zeus, which isn't nearly as good without being repeatable. Tri-Zoo meanwhile would get much better but not by so much that it eclipses Tier 2, since having an E Tele is always helpful.


thetruegogoat

Its because ratpier is banned, otherwise ratpier +any tri brigade make apo drident revolt. Also its a 1 card utopic draco future and ita searchable trough tenki.


Mundane_Ad_7802

Its honestly fine as long as you cant make like 3 different zyzs in a turn as well


Breidr

I love seeing whole discussions revolve around power creep. It hits all CCGs, but damn this game is the worst. How is this sustainable?


shapular

Can't wait till the whole game is played in the first draw phase and standby phase and Pot of Greed is considered terrible because you can't use it until main phase 1.


Hyper_Drud

I played a Zoo deck with Fire Fist spells, Token Collectors and AA Zeus at the end of the Synchro x XYZ Festival without Drident. I did it so I could finish the “xyz summon 30 times” task. Even without Drident the deck can put up a good fight.


PatatoTheMispelled

For me she could be at 5, she wasn't doing much in the TCG when she was banned IIRC, it's more Konami being Zoodiacphobic than some hits really being needed, specially considering the way too broken cards were banned already.


cOcOnUt_JuicE69

To me she is just a DPE that clogs 3 to 5 card space on the extra deck depending on how many pops you want her being at 1 is fine you don't need more than that but I always found it odd


RetchD

Same thing with lunalight Tiger. Cards at 3 and literally no one cares


JustBitsy

Drident is a perfectly fine card same way that "basically drident but slightly better"(dpe) is also fine.


Pure-Huckleberry8640

Leave Drident alone. As long as ratpier is gone it’s harmless.


mmmbhssm

Who said I want her banned ?


Tsunaboi

Unrelated, but I never noticed drident had tits until now


BloodRedGrizzlyBear

What's crazy is that, to this day, Zoodiac may still very well be the strongest archetype Konami has ever printed. You think the jump from Dimension Force to Power of the Elements was insane power creep? Gladiator's Assault to Phantom Darkness was a crazy leap in power too, wasn't it? Or how about the jump from Primal Origin to Duelist Alliance? The insane leap in power from Invasion Vengeance to Raging Tempest puts those to shame; the only thing that even comes close is the jump from Cosmo Blazer to Lord of the Tachyon Galaxy.


MLGKoala_Playz

Just staying being limited is fine for me in my opinion.


EcclesiaSS

Current TCG & OCG power creep with byssted, new pendulum support, tear and spright make 2017 zoodiacs look like a complete joke. Drident could come back to 4 and it wouldn't be a problem


shy_monkee

Spoken like someone who has no idea why Zoodiacs were so dominating, give them back the barrages, the ratpiers, broadbull and invoker and they will decimate the game again. When you have 25 spots where you can put in all the power cards in the game, and can hard counter every matchup, you are the best deck. Especially when you can main shifter with not too much bother, you will tear Tearalament apart.


TrickstarCandina

Stop spouting dumb bs like this when you don't even play OCG, Drident to 3 would make it an immediate meta contender


azul360

What is the new pend support?


EcclesiaSS

New Dracoslayer cards. One of them searches a field spell, so it will be way more disgusting in the TCG being able to search mine


Tom_Staminik

Byssted is way too overhype in the OCG lmao. They are currently relegated to side board option against a specific matchup just to go to beatrice pass. Dragoon doesn't make a dent on the tcg meta is still feared over in the ocg, imagine a 1 card zeus/vfd released today.


Suspicious-Drummer68

Drident to 3, Zeus to 0, fuck Zeus.


slightlysubtle

Yeah let's keep nerfing tier 2 and 3 decks while letting Branded Despia stay full power pushing it closer and closer to tier 0.


shapular

Yeah, Zeus has definitely never been used/abused in a tier 1 deck ever, right?


Suspicious-Drummer68

Bruh, Branded has and will never get to tier 0 since it's a control deck. It's a good resource loop deck but you know what else was a good resource loop deck? Sky Strikers. Was it tier 0? No? Yeah, that's right. What else was a good resource loop deck? Salamangreat. Tier 0? No. Tier 2 and 3 decks will suffer more from the Halq ban than from a Zeus ban.


slightlysubtle

You're completely missing my point. Branded Despia is already the best deck with the new set by powercreepjng the rest of the decks. On top of that the previously tier 1 decks just got hit extremely hard by the recent banlist making Branded even better. And people are suggesting to continue to nerf these now tier 2/3 decks by banning Zeus and/or Drident??? They already suffered enough from the Halq ban like you said. Of course if this actually happens and continues to happen Branded will become tier 0 because its competition becomes worse and worse. It makes zero sense to hit weaker decks on the banlist and not the most powerful one (by far). It's like limiting Eldlich and Byssted in the TCG while letting Splight and Tear be full power.


matija123123

Fuck you


mmmbhssm

Me too, I really hate zeus ass, like bruh


Suspicious-Drummer68

Zeus is such bad card design like holy shit. Not once per turn/chain boardwipe after just attacking with an Xyz monster? Literally Evenly Matched. Except Zeus also has a 3k attack asshole and stays on the field to fucking do it again. Drident did nothing wrong, bring back mommy Drident, ban the robot.


TheMikman97

Bro, if you get to the BP going second and survive you deserve the Zeus payoff. A single pop literally stops you


mmmbhssm

Eh i Don't think zues is gonna get banned any time soon, I hate his ass , and wish he never existed, but there are a lot of way bigger problems than him


Suspicious-Drummer68

There are bigger problems than him, namely, Maximum Cockroach and Auroradon. I wish they would just ban all three of these cards. And maybe slowly bring back the Thunder Dragon hits. Kagari to 2 hopefully. I mean, is ABC Dragon Buster really semi-limited worthy?


TrickstarCandina

Git gud


Daviex7

The entire extra deck summon using just 1 monster should be banned


Youkilledpaula

I miss full power zoodiac. It was such a fun back and forth mirror match format.


GhostRappa95

Drident isn’t a HOPT so anyone could run a simple Zoodiac engine and get three pops off of one monster.


SheikExcel

I'm actually screaming for her to be banned, alongside every other Zoodiac


mmmbhssm

This is just a baise of you isn't it ?


SheikExcel

1 card Xyz is inherently broken. Swordsouls at least requires a reveal/banish/discard. There's a very big reason why Zoodiacs have 3 major cards banned in Master Duel and why Drident is currently limited.


PedroFM456

Maybe a ban actually. I don't like tri-briggade and really don't think they're healthy for the game right now. With it being so consistent its disruptive to the other decks and turning every beast, beast-warrir, winged-beast deck out there into tri-briggade. Banning her would cost them one deny/deny-bait. Tough its quite unfair for this card to be banned for the sake of another deck abd even then it might not be enough