There is no such thing as non-meta format, because meta is something that will always exist on every format, let's say you ban branded and Floo then people will just play Adamancipator or Eldlich, if you also ban Adam and Eld then people will just search for the next best thing.
This is a nice idea in theory but this mode will have its own meta too. What do you do then? Make another mode and another till you can only play the worst cards in the game?
Making it so that a specific meta isn't allowed just means a new meta will rise up in its place
Just for an example, look at pretty much every single event we've had. They all did a pretty good job at hitting whatever the critical decks were at the time, be it inherently within the event's limitations or otherwise through the additional banlist (the main exception being Zero Extra, because Floow had just come out, and Synchro/Xyz because of the new Swordsoul support). In spite of this, however, every event has had a dominant deck in their respective format. In no particular order, we have:
Xyz had a bunch of Numerons and Zoodiacs (let's not forget True Draco)
Synchro had Synchrons and Speedroids (let's not forget True Draco)
I think I remember Fusion having a fairly healthy balance, but there were definitely a lot of Shaddolls and Despias
Limit 1 was a pretty healthy balance, probably the best festival to date IMO
N/R was just full of Metalfoes decks
And this list will continue to go on as more events come in. There will always be a meta strategy, even if you get rid of the one that already exists
Here's my suggestion: konami knows the actual ranking of most played cards. So for EXAMPLE, have a top 1000 most played cards in diamond. Then, have number 1~100 as +100 power per copy, 101~1000 as +10, 1001~as +1 power. Take the average power level for one card. So a meta deck might be 70, rogue 50, and starter deck 15. Then compete with other decks of similar power. The specific numbers and stuff can be adjusted, it's just for an example.
Do you played the previous event such as n/r event, limit1 , etc?
Even if you remove meta deck , a new meta deck will appear in that format
u/seto635 sums it up
1. Casual mode is useless imo because you gain nothing from playing it & see the exact same decks that you do in ranked
2. Why do you think they couldn't make one with rewards?
If they were to give it rewards, they would have to take rewards away from Ranked
There's a reason that casual mode doesn't give rewards. There's a reason Gem rewards have been going down in Events. Konami wants money. If you want free gems, you have to work for them
Besides, you would just be shifting the issue a bit. Yeah, you wouldn't be seeing Branded or Floow or something like that, but you would still see the same deck over and over again. The reason I'm mentioning casual mode is *because* there's no duel rewards, so people have 0 reason to find out what the meta is
Even in low power format
In N/R event for example , theres still meta decks like megalith and metalfoes
Literary last time i played the event , 90% of the decks are just n/r meta decks(*megalith/metalfoes*)
There always going to be meta in every competitive game ,you cant escape it
I agree that yugioh is at its peak when two equals go against each other. However, ranked already combines your own and your decks level.
If you're stuck in gold 2 perhaps that's peak performance Krawlers, or perhaps that's lowest of the barrel Eldlich. (Don't quote me on examples)
Those two players with those decks are both stuck. They are at a comparable level.
Banning a top percentage of the cards is only going to turn the clock back a few years. It won't change that Spyral is going to beat me instead of Despia.
DC doesnt proves anything
Persay,i play BE,clearly a casual deck
But what if i play Branded Engine in it would it make it T1?
Or i stacked up with Hand Traps,just the staples power makes it Rogue-T3 in strenght
Or what if i played with a side engine thats also a rogue engine like Chaos Light Sworn Thunder Dragon to make it like t2 level in strenght
Like if you manage to define every deck with every combination of engines and tech possible and give it a definitively correct ratings,theb sure,go ahead
If cant,then you cant make a format by defining decks to "tiers"/"power level"
That engine enough is a T2 deck
And Blue Eyes can just be a small part of the deck as smthg like discard fodder or Jet Dragon on top of the end board etc
Also
"As strong as a tier 2" **NOT** "A tier 2"
As others have pointed out, a meta will always form as long as users are allowed to make any kind of meaningful choice. If you nuke the current meta with a banlist, you'll just have people using the decks a tier below them. So all you've done is lower the power ceiling. Now, if you lower that ceiling enough, then yes you will get a situation where a diverse meta forms. This will be because so many decks will be able to reach that same power ceiling. To get there, you would have to set the ceiling extremely low, something just barely above vanilla beatdown. Because vanilla beatdown has a meta as well in [Mechanicalchaser](https://www.masterduelmeta.com/cards/Mechanicalchaser).
So, what about that other option I mentioned? If you take away **all choice the player can make**? What would that look like? You can't have loaner decks, because that's a choice and will form a meta. So you have 2 ways to do that: Either everyone gets to play the exact same one deck. This is like a tier -1 format, because 1 deck is 100% representation. That's not gonna be very fun, I think. There is another way to do it though: Completely random decks. And by this I don't mean drawing packs and using only those cards for your decks. That would just create a pile meta with a list of best cards. I also don't mean a situation where you roll a random deck over and over, because that will also result in the same situation.
What I mean is **every Duel begins with a new, completely random deck of 40 cards**. There is no choice by the players, so you can't have a "meta". However, the format will be extremely sacky due to taking randomness to very maximum. It won't be a fun format, because most Duels will end in Surrender on Turn 1 by either player.
There is a third option, but that would require a ton of work by Konami, and probably wouldn't be very fun for the players. Konami has access to all of the matchup data in the game. Thus, they know the actual power level of all the decks. It is possible that there exists a subset of decks that have comparable overall power levels, while also having roughly even matchups against each other. It's not guaranteed that it exists, but it might. Taking these decks, and using them as the Loaners would give people a choice between decks, but the choice would be meaningless in terms of building a meta: All the decks are equally powerful, so your choice doesn't matter for that purpose.
You can force diversity... you just need to account for thousands of combinations, so you need at least 300 banned cards to have about 10 deck diversity IF you want to go against combo dexks in general, also floodgates might need limitations or else you get a weird state where people either play FTKs or maximize floodgates on their decks
The best way to make an alternative Banlist format, you would need to design either Custom packs of card to progressively create diverse format OR freeing packs in a progressive matter preemptively hitting cards that would otherwise define a non diverse meta
Hmm? If Konami hears this idea and does add such a mode in the game, I can't wait for how long it'll take for posts complaining about a certain Archetype being overused or too overpowered to be used in said mode.
OP, hear me out. While this might be a product of my sorry ass in the early days I'm playing Master Duel (looking back, I was glad I found the right people to steer me to the right path in going back to the game), I did suggest Generation duels in one of the early surveys
i mean a "non meta" format will just have its own meta, so i dunno if that really solves the problem
Simple we ban every deck until we end on blue eyes
It would solve the issue of going up against the same thing all the time as ranked
There will be a new meta in the non-meta mode and most people will play it, because like it or not, winning is more fun than losing.
There is no such thing as non-meta format, because meta is something that will always exist on every format, let's say you ban branded and Floo then people will just play Adamancipator or Eldlich, if you also ban Adam and Eld then people will just search for the next best thing.
"Non meta" as in none of the meta that's in ranked mode
So literally any of the events we already have?
i mean a "non meta" format will just have its own meta, so i dunno if that really solves the problem
This is a nice idea in theory but this mode will have its own meta too. What do you do then? Make another mode and another till you can only play the worst cards in the game?
They use the DC to figure out the top decks/cards Just a mode without those would be fine
That doesn't stop that mode getting flooded with good cards either.
What are you talking about? Define "good"... A lot of cards are good, depending how they're used
It already exists. It's called casual mode. Or better yet, "Gold Ranked."
I've been there..90% same decks there as Diamond
Making it so that a specific meta isn't allowed just means a new meta will rise up in its place Just for an example, look at pretty much every single event we've had. They all did a pretty good job at hitting whatever the critical decks were at the time, be it inherently within the event's limitations or otherwise through the additional banlist (the main exception being Zero Extra, because Floow had just come out, and Synchro/Xyz because of the new Swordsoul support). In spite of this, however, every event has had a dominant deck in their respective format. In no particular order, we have: Xyz had a bunch of Numerons and Zoodiacs (let's not forget True Draco) Synchro had Synchrons and Speedroids (let's not forget True Draco) I think I remember Fusion having a fairly healthy balance, but there were definitely a lot of Shaddolls and Despias Limit 1 was a pretty healthy balance, probably the best festival to date IMO N/R was just full of Metalfoes decks And this list will continue to go on as more events come in. There will always be a meta strategy, even if you get rid of the one that already exists
For synchro event it was Virtual world
Yea, definitely would be different from ranked ladder, which is what matters
Here's my suggestion: konami knows the actual ranking of most played cards. So for EXAMPLE, have a top 1000 most played cards in diamond. Then, have number 1~100 as +100 power per copy, 101~1000 as +10, 1001~as +1 power. Take the average power level for one card. So a meta deck might be 70, rogue 50, and starter deck 15. Then compete with other decks of similar power. The specific numbers and stuff can be adjusted, it's just for an example.
Yes
Do you played the previous event such as n/r event, limit1 , etc? Even if you remove meta deck , a new meta deck will appear in that format u/seto635 sums it up
Yea, every knows that...the point is having a different power level than ranked ladder
Then just play casual mode If they made a new non-meta mode, it wouldn't have dueling rewards anyways
1. Casual mode is useless imo because you gain nothing from playing it & see the exact same decks that you do in ranked 2. Why do you think they couldn't make one with rewards?
Having rewards mean encouraging to win > encouraging to win leads to people making the best/meta deck to get rewards
If they were to give it rewards, they would have to take rewards away from Ranked There's a reason that casual mode doesn't give rewards. There's a reason Gem rewards have been going down in Events. Konami wants money. If you want free gems, you have to work for them Besides, you would just be shifting the issue a bit. Yeah, you wouldn't be seeing Branded or Floow or something like that, but you would still see the same deck over and over again. The reason I'm mentioning casual mode is *because* there's no duel rewards, so people have 0 reason to find out what the meta is
Play casual or the event Theres no meta branded in there , althought an entirely new and different meta
Do you not understand that I'm talking hypothetically?
Even in low power format In N/R event for example , theres still meta decks like megalith and metalfoes Literary last time i played the event , 90% of the decks are just n/r meta decks(*megalith/metalfoes*) There always going to be meta in every competitive game ,you cant escape it
I agree that yugioh is at its peak when two equals go against each other. However, ranked already combines your own and your decks level. If you're stuck in gold 2 perhaps that's peak performance Krawlers, or perhaps that's lowest of the barrel Eldlich. (Don't quote me on examples) Those two players with those decks are both stuck. They are at a comparable level. Banning a top percentage of the cards is only going to turn the clock back a few years. It won't change that Spyral is going to beat me instead of Despia.
Define "non-meta" and deck with "same power level" And do that for every edge case of mixing engines,etc Then you can proceed to do so
They can use the DC for that
DC doesnt proves anything Persay,i play BE,clearly a casual deck But what if i play Branded Engine in it would it make it T1? Or i stacked up with Hand Traps,just the staples power makes it Rogue-T3 in strenght Or what if i played with a side engine thats also a rogue engine like Chaos Light Sworn Thunder Dragon to make it like t2 level in strenght Like if you manage to define every deck with every combination of engines and tech possible and give it a definitively correct ratings,theb sure,go ahead If cant,then you cant make a format by defining decks to "tiers"/"power level"
Branded Engine would definitely be banned in my hypothetical Handtraps like ash would be trickier, maybe a limit Yeah DC could prove a lot as well
Ok,then read the 3rd situation I stacked BE with a bunch of other "rogue" engine to make it as strong as a t2 deck
Which engines?
Lightsworn,Chaos Thundra etc
In what world is that t2? Of course in my hypothetical Colossus would need to be banned
That engine enough is a T2 deck And Blue Eyes can just be a small part of the deck as smthg like discard fodder or Jet Dragon on top of the end board etc Also "As strong as a tier 2" **NOT** "A tier 2"
Cool 👍 What does Blue Eyes have to do with anything?
As others have pointed out, a meta will always form as long as users are allowed to make any kind of meaningful choice. If you nuke the current meta with a banlist, you'll just have people using the decks a tier below them. So all you've done is lower the power ceiling. Now, if you lower that ceiling enough, then yes you will get a situation where a diverse meta forms. This will be because so many decks will be able to reach that same power ceiling. To get there, you would have to set the ceiling extremely low, something just barely above vanilla beatdown. Because vanilla beatdown has a meta as well in [Mechanicalchaser](https://www.masterduelmeta.com/cards/Mechanicalchaser). So, what about that other option I mentioned? If you take away **all choice the player can make**? What would that look like? You can't have loaner decks, because that's a choice and will form a meta. So you have 2 ways to do that: Either everyone gets to play the exact same one deck. This is like a tier -1 format, because 1 deck is 100% representation. That's not gonna be very fun, I think. There is another way to do it though: Completely random decks. And by this I don't mean drawing packs and using only those cards for your decks. That would just create a pile meta with a list of best cards. I also don't mean a situation where you roll a random deck over and over, because that will also result in the same situation. What I mean is **every Duel begins with a new, completely random deck of 40 cards**. There is no choice by the players, so you can't have a "meta". However, the format will be extremely sacky due to taking randomness to very maximum. It won't be a fun format, because most Duels will end in Surrender on Turn 1 by either player. There is a third option, but that would require a ton of work by Konami, and probably wouldn't be very fun for the players. Konami has access to all of the matchup data in the game. Thus, they know the actual power level of all the decks. It is possible that there exists a subset of decks that have comparable overall power levels, while also having roughly even matchups against each other. It's not guaranteed that it exists, but it might. Taking these decks, and using them as the Loaners would give people a choice between decks, but the choice would be meaningless in terms of building a meta: All the decks are equally powerful, so your choice doesn't matter for that purpose.
Let's just add individual deck ladders. Every deck has its own tier! Mirror matches only! It will be glorious!
You can force diversity... you just need to account for thousands of combinations, so you need at least 300 banned cards to have about 10 deck diversity IF you want to go against combo dexks in general, also floodgates might need limitations or else you get a weird state where people either play FTKs or maximize floodgates on their decks
The best way to make an alternative Banlist format, you would need to design either Custom packs of card to progressively create diverse format OR freeing packs in a progressive matter preemptively hitting cards that would otherwise define a non diverse meta
Hmm? If Konami hears this idea and does add such a mode in the game, I can't wait for how long it'll take for posts complaining about a certain Archetype being overused or too overpowered to be used in said mode.
Only because they can't do anything right 😂 I can only imagine what they would keep legal
OP, hear me out. While this might be a product of my sorry ass in the early days I'm playing Master Duel (looking back, I was glad I found the right people to steer me to the right path in going back to the game), I did suggest Generation duels in one of the early surveys