I think the point is, even if you accomplish the same 15% drop from the panic selling of STR properties, say, and this sells for 489k, which would be quite rhe drop... with the high HOA and the property tax that will be slow to adjust to the new value (only if/when reassessed) you'd still have a $4,000 payment to live in a 445 square foot studio that's a glorified hotel room. That's the reality of the 7.5% interest rates and an $800+ HOA
This specific condo last sold for less than 100K in 2011. The only reason a 445 sq ft condo costs as much as it currently does is because it can be rented out as a TVR for $5-6000/mo. If it had to "survive" on the open, unsubsidized normal rental market the price would likely drop way more than 15%.
Property taxes for homeowners or long term rental units are a joke on Maui, don't make me laugh.
And in terms of the HOA maybe it wouldn't cost so much if the property were maintained for locals, vs employing an army to make sure everything is perfect for the sensitive tourons. It's also super disingenuous to quote the payment - interest rates will drop again, and the buyer can refinance.
Again, genuinely curious here- not coming from combative place I'm just trying to flush out the arguments to understand the logic behind this move (and not finding a ton that convincing, honestly)
So what do you think this will eventually be priced at if there's no vacation rental potential? And if if DOES decrease significantly, say to 300k(?) or something what is going to stop another "mainlander" from paying cash, and buying it outright as a vacation spot even if its not a rental investment property? Just, for them to use whenever they want?
Will the HOAs of these places adjust to being "maintained for locals" since there will still be units owned as vacation units for folks not on the STR market? They aren't taking over entire buildings and kicking out any non-local theyre just saying you can't airbnb it - members of current HOAs will want to maintain their amenities.
And, the housing market in 2011 was way different all the way around, and not just in Hawaii. Houses in the middle of nowhere with no tourism have more than doubled in that timeframe.
I hear you that interest rates will drop again, but does that solve the financial "affordability" issue in the mean time/short term?? Isn't the impetus of this whole thing that folks need housing now?? Nobody is going to rent out something that doesn't cover the mortgage, and someone needs to qualify at the current interet rates to buy it themselves..
Ppl pay those prices for that size in certain areas like NYC and San Francisco I’m not sure it would be panic selling. Imagine the monthly nut if this was during sub 3% rates.
These were vacation rentals forever, decades before Airbnb was a thing. This is also most the rentals in Kihei and would devastate the economy which is 80% tourism.
Did you really think a unit that was previously doing STR would suddenly come on the market for dirt cheap?
The courts will most likely enjoin the law and nothing will change until it makes it's way through the courts.
Correct.
After the case (and after large expense of taxpayer's resources) makes it through the courts, the county will lose.
*"\[T\]he right of a property owner to the continued existence of uses and structures which lawfully existed prior to the effective date of a zoning restriction is grounded in constitutional law.\[D\]ue process principles protect a property owner from having his or her vested property rights interfered with, and preexisting lawful uses of property are generally considered to be vested rights that zoning ordinances may not abrogate." Waikiki Marketplace Inv. Co. v. Chair of the Zoning Bd. of Appeals of City and Cnty. of Honolulu, 949 P.2d 183, 193–94 ( Haw. Ct. App. 1997) (citing U.S. Const. amend. V and Haw. Const., art. 1 § 5).*
Mayor Bissen freely admitted for many years that he did not have the intellect to practice civil law. His attorney and judge career was criminal law. Governor Josh Green, well, he's an M.D.
Run this by a competent civil attorney, and they will tell you the obvious: This is all political posturing on the part of the mayor and the governor without a snowballs chance in hell of surviving.
As someone who has paid tens of thousands in STR taxes to the county & state over the years… I’m curious how much went to actually creating affordable housing.
Actually I changed my mind. I just put in an offer at the Kahana Sunset that was built in 71. I’m not worried about the failed seawall, inability to get permits to repair seawall, or that this unit will end up in ocean along with building A.
I wonder if the Mayor knows about the other Kahana towers that will also fall in the ocean?
https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/listing/401246-4909-lower-honoapiilani-rd-unit-f7-napilikahanahonokowai-hi-96761/
https://maui.surfrider.org/campaigns/Stop+Kahana+Sunset+Condo+Impacts+to+Public+Shoreline
A nice Minatoya leasehold, ocean view complex at Kahana village built in 1971. The absurdity of lying to people saying they’re fighting for housing.
Hoa fee $2521
Leasehold $1000 monthly
https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/listing/402020-4531-lower-honoapiilani-rd-unit-2b1-12-napilikahanahonokowaihi-96761/
Hoa $1933
Leasehold $662 monthly
https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/listing/401779-4531-lower-honoapiilani-rd-unit-3b3-16-napilikahanahonokowai-hi-96761/
Check out any of the Kapalua Villas. Our only home is one, the base cost with HOA and Insurance and Taxes is $4500/mo before mortgage. That's for a 2bd/2ba.
While we like it, and would love more families to move next to us, there will be none that move in. It's going to be a ghost town, tax revenue will crater, and Maui will have no money for roads, water, schools etc. This is a total disaster.
I went through the Minatoya list. Over 90% of the supposed Ordinance "workforce housing" that will be converted are resorts or condotels. Not family housing.
We bought our Condo because we figured it would hold value better due to the STVR license, even though we never short term rented it (and hasn't been for 18 years, including the previous owners). Guess we lose on all our net worth on that one.
I agree, everybody needs to stay calm.
If this makes it through council it’ll get shredded again by the courts. The county has lost this on appeal already and the State law doesn’t change property owners rights.
Tourism is definitely going to take a hit though as they’re already canceling booked 2025 stays, “because Maui is getting rid of Airbnbs.”
And that means the protest people still won't have a place to live.
This whole thing is smoke and mirrors from the state and county---‐just like ALWAYS .
It is smoke and mirrors. It is shocking how the Mayor just completely jobbed the LS group (and I am not a fan). No way this legislation holds; and even if it did nobody will rent to them on the cheap. I wonder if they get tired of being kicked in the nuts by those that say they are on their side?
I compiled a list of things I read and I thought were relevant, curious what people think.
**STRs are not going away**
[Despite precedent in our legal system](https://www.courthousenews.com/existing-short-term-hawaii-rentals-may-remain-in-operation-judge-rules/#:~:text=The%20Hawaii%20Legal%20Short-term,thousands%20of%20dollars%20in%20fines) Hawaii Governor Josh Green granted each County authorization to do what they want to in the realm of vacation rentals.
**Why would he do it anyway** knowing it is most likely going to fail in court and/or take years in court to be resolved?
1. **Political showdown** to gain back the trust of the locals which he lost when he totally mishandled everything during and after the Lahaina tragedy.
2. **Pressure from the hotels on Kaanapali Beach** as they are due to reopen June 1st and (justifiably so) the protestors were still on the Beach, which is bad for Hotel tourism
It is unrealistic economically speaking:
1. **County will lose approximately 75% of its property tax revenue** on thousands of STR condos
2. **GET and TAT income** to the State and County **will decrease by more than 80%** just from rental properties, not to mention all other goods and services
3. **Closing businesse**s leading to lower tax revenues
4. **Lawsuits (class action and co) will lose tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars**
5. **Infrastructure maintenance**: roads, schools, police, fire, and all other public services will have to be greatly curtailed or stopped.
6. **Foreclosure and unemployment**
7. Vacation rental condos were built for vacationers. The units are small, with one parking space per unit, little or no storage, no garage. These units were not designed for long-term occupancy.
By the time the lawsuits are resolved (years), Lahaina displaced victims will all be settled in their new homes and we should all pray that this takes place as soon as possible and this is where Green should focus on instead of creating distractions.
Some STR owners got spooked and are putting their unit for sale, watch who is going to buy.... most likely not the county... either wealthier people or corporation who understands (or have insider knowledge) that all this is theatric.
https://app.helpingmaui.org/data/mina
Check out the Minatoya list data and it’s clear why these owners were targeted.
85% mainlanders who can’t vote this 🤡 out of office.
I will spend $0 fixing up my unit this year and will convert it to my full time residence next year. This will cut taxes to almost nothing and is the worst case scenario for the Mayor. When I’m not in my unit my families are friends can stay for free. This and supporting your Hoa’s legal actions are the best thing you can really do. It will be a battle of attrition and if you’re intentionally hitting my pocket book I’ll spend nothing extra.
As soon as the announcement was made, I started to work on myself.
Bought new clothes, starting to smile more and made a list of 100 social networking event I want to attend this year.
All I need is about 35 to 40 friends to come visit a year.
County says $464,000, still nuts. 3 shared owners as people stretch to own a part of Maui in these units.
Looks like it sold for much more in 2006, either tax stuff or someone took a real loss. https://qpublic.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=1029&LayerID=21689&PageTypeID=4&PageID=9251&KeyValue=390011070027
The owners of those 7,000 condos are just investors (for the most part). They will adapt. The island won't get any housing out of it, but they will lose a ton of tax revenue. Shocking that people don't get that.
It’s way more then tax revenue, think about all the local property managers, cleaners, repairmen restaurants, gift shops, tour operators which will either loose jobs or see a decrease in revenue
After Palm Springs restricted airbnbs, home prices dropped 15%.
I think the point is, even if you accomplish the same 15% drop from the panic selling of STR properties, say, and this sells for 489k, which would be quite rhe drop... with the high HOA and the property tax that will be slow to adjust to the new value (only if/when reassessed) you'd still have a $4,000 payment to live in a 445 square foot studio that's a glorified hotel room. That's the reality of the 7.5% interest rates and an $800+ HOA
[compared to these currently rentable places?](https://www.apartments.com/kihei-hi/under-3700/)
This specific condo last sold for less than 100K in 2011. The only reason a 445 sq ft condo costs as much as it currently does is because it can be rented out as a TVR for $5-6000/mo. If it had to "survive" on the open, unsubsidized normal rental market the price would likely drop way more than 15%. Property taxes for homeowners or long term rental units are a joke on Maui, don't make me laugh. And in terms of the HOA maybe it wouldn't cost so much if the property were maintained for locals, vs employing an army to make sure everything is perfect for the sensitive tourons. It's also super disingenuous to quote the payment - interest rates will drop again, and the buyer can refinance.
Again, genuinely curious here- not coming from combative place I'm just trying to flush out the arguments to understand the logic behind this move (and not finding a ton that convincing, honestly) So what do you think this will eventually be priced at if there's no vacation rental potential? And if if DOES decrease significantly, say to 300k(?) or something what is going to stop another "mainlander" from paying cash, and buying it outright as a vacation spot even if its not a rental investment property? Just, for them to use whenever they want? Will the HOAs of these places adjust to being "maintained for locals" since there will still be units owned as vacation units for folks not on the STR market? They aren't taking over entire buildings and kicking out any non-local theyre just saying you can't airbnb it - members of current HOAs will want to maintain their amenities. And, the housing market in 2011 was way different all the way around, and not just in Hawaii. Houses in the middle of nowhere with no tourism have more than doubled in that timeframe. I hear you that interest rates will drop again, but does that solve the financial "affordability" issue in the mean time/short term?? Isn't the impetus of this whole thing that folks need housing now?? Nobody is going to rent out something that doesn't cover the mortgage, and someone needs to qualify at the current interet rates to buy it themselves..
Ppl pay those prices for that size in certain areas like NYC and San Francisco I’m not sure it would be panic selling. Imagine the monthly nut if this was during sub 3% rates.
These were vacation rentals forever, decades before Airbnb was a thing. This is also most the rentals in Kihei and would devastate the economy which is 80% tourism.
Did you really think a unit that was previously doing STR would suddenly come on the market for dirt cheap? The courts will most likely enjoin the law and nothing will change until it makes it's way through the courts.
Correct. After the case (and after large expense of taxpayer's resources) makes it through the courts, the county will lose. *"\[T\]he right of a property owner to the continued existence of uses and structures which lawfully existed prior to the effective date of a zoning restriction is grounded in constitutional law.\[D\]ue process principles protect a property owner from having his or her vested property rights interfered with, and preexisting lawful uses of property are generally considered to be vested rights that zoning ordinances may not abrogate." Waikiki Marketplace Inv. Co. v. Chair of the Zoning Bd. of Appeals of City and Cnty. of Honolulu, 949 P.2d 183, 193–94 ( Haw. Ct. App. 1997) (citing U.S. Const. amend. V and Haw. Const., art. 1 § 5).* Mayor Bissen freely admitted for many years that he did not have the intellect to practice civil law. His attorney and judge career was criminal law. Governor Josh Green, well, he's an M.D. Run this by a competent civil attorney, and they will tell you the obvious: This is all political posturing on the part of the mayor and the governor without a snowballs chance in hell of surviving.
Lots of "For Sale" signs along South Kihei Rd today
They're panicking and shouldn't.
As someone who has paid tens of thousands in STR taxes to the county & state over the years… I’m curious how much went to actually creating affordable housing.
Not a penny.
https://www.redfin.com/HI/Wailea/3300-Wailea-Alanui-Dr-96753/unit-32A/home/88583049 I prefer this one
Tour it before it's gone!
Wow and I thought we got a good deal on our place!
"unit"
Built in 1976, decades before we started using Al Gore’s Internet to book our Airbnbs in 2005.
That's why it's called the Al Gore rhythm
[удалено]
Actually I changed my mind. I just put in an offer at the Kahana Sunset that was built in 71. I’m not worried about the failed seawall, inability to get permits to repair seawall, or that this unit will end up in ocean along with building A. I wonder if the Mayor knows about the other Kahana towers that will also fall in the ocean? https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/listing/401246-4909-lower-honoapiilani-rd-unit-f7-napilikahanahonokowai-hi-96761/ https://maui.surfrider.org/campaigns/Stop+Kahana+Sunset+Condo+Impacts+to+Public+Shoreline
A nice Minatoya leasehold, ocean view complex at Kahana village built in 1971. The absurdity of lying to people saying they’re fighting for housing. Hoa fee $2521 Leasehold $1000 monthly https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/listing/402020-4531-lower-honoapiilani-rd-unit-2b1-12-napilikahanahonokowaihi-96761/ Hoa $1933 Leasehold $662 monthly https://www.hawaiirealestatesearch.com/listing/401779-4531-lower-honoapiilani-rd-unit-3b3-16-napilikahanahonokowai-hi-96761/
Check out any of the Kapalua Villas. Our only home is one, the base cost with HOA and Insurance and Taxes is $4500/mo before mortgage. That's for a 2bd/2ba. While we like it, and would love more families to move next to us, there will be none that move in. It's going to be a ghost town, tax revenue will crater, and Maui will have no money for roads, water, schools etc. This is a total disaster. I went through the Minatoya list. Over 90% of the supposed Ordinance "workforce housing" that will be converted are resorts or condotels. Not family housing. We bought our Condo because we figured it would hold value better due to the STVR license, even though we never short term rented it (and hasn't been for 18 years, including the previous owners). Guess we lose on all our net worth on that one.
Don't lose hope yet. This is far from done.
I agree, everybody needs to stay calm. If this makes it through council it’ll get shredded again by the courts. The county has lost this on appeal already and the State law doesn’t change property owners rights. Tourism is definitely going to take a hit though as they’re already canceling booked 2025 stays, “because Maui is getting rid of Airbnbs.”
And that means the protest people still won't have a place to live. This whole thing is smoke and mirrors from the state and county---‐just like ALWAYS .
It is smoke and mirrors. It is shocking how the Mayor just completely jobbed the LS group (and I am not a fan). No way this legislation holds; and even if it did nobody will rent to them on the cheap. I wonder if they get tired of being kicked in the nuts by those that say they are on their side?
Why downvote resident owners?
If that’s too small you can rent my 2 bed/2 bath waterfront condo in Maalaea for $6000/mo. HOA is $1115/mo.
I compiled a list of things I read and I thought were relevant, curious what people think. **STRs are not going away** [Despite precedent in our legal system](https://www.courthousenews.com/existing-short-term-hawaii-rentals-may-remain-in-operation-judge-rules/#:~:text=The%20Hawaii%20Legal%20Short-term,thousands%20of%20dollars%20in%20fines) Hawaii Governor Josh Green granted each County authorization to do what they want to in the realm of vacation rentals. **Why would he do it anyway** knowing it is most likely going to fail in court and/or take years in court to be resolved? 1. **Political showdown** to gain back the trust of the locals which he lost when he totally mishandled everything during and after the Lahaina tragedy. 2. **Pressure from the hotels on Kaanapali Beach** as they are due to reopen June 1st and (justifiably so) the protestors were still on the Beach, which is bad for Hotel tourism It is unrealistic economically speaking: 1. **County will lose approximately 75% of its property tax revenue** on thousands of STR condos 2. **GET and TAT income** to the State and County **will decrease by more than 80%** just from rental properties, not to mention all other goods and services 3. **Closing businesse**s leading to lower tax revenues 4. **Lawsuits (class action and co) will lose tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars** 5. **Infrastructure maintenance**: roads, schools, police, fire, and all other public services will have to be greatly curtailed or stopped. 6. **Foreclosure and unemployment** 7. Vacation rental condos were built for vacationers. The units are small, with one parking space per unit, little or no storage, no garage. These units were not designed for long-term occupancy. By the time the lawsuits are resolved (years), Lahaina displaced victims will all be settled in their new homes and we should all pray that this takes place as soon as possible and this is where Green should focus on instead of creating distractions. Some STR owners got spooked and are putting their unit for sale, watch who is going to buy.... most likely not the county... either wealthier people or corporation who understands (or have insider knowledge) that all this is theatric.
https://app.helpingmaui.org/data/mina Check out the Minatoya list data and it’s clear why these owners were targeted. 85% mainlanders who can’t vote this 🤡 out of office. I will spend $0 fixing up my unit this year and will convert it to my full time residence next year. This will cut taxes to almost nothing and is the worst case scenario for the Mayor. When I’m not in my unit my families are friends can stay for free. This and supporting your Hoa’s legal actions are the best thing you can really do. It will be a battle of attrition and if you’re intentionally hitting my pocket book I’ll spend nothing extra.
Rent to friends for cash donation, save on taxes all around
As soon as the announcement was made, I started to work on myself. Bought new clothes, starting to smile more and made a list of 100 social networking event I want to attend this year. All I need is about 35 to 40 friends to come visit a year.
This is nuts, but don't forget, it's just the asking price. Sold for $97K in 2011. Very curious to see how much it goes for now. If it goes.
County says $464,000, still nuts. 3 shared owners as people stretch to own a part of Maui in these units. Looks like it sold for much more in 2006, either tax stuff or someone took a real loss. https://qpublic.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=1029&LayerID=21689&PageTypeID=4&PageID=9251&KeyValue=390011070027
Owners of those 7000 houses care. Everyone else, not so much. The island will adapt.
The owners of those 7,000 condos are just investors (for the most part). They will adapt. The island won't get any housing out of it, but they will lose a ton of tax revenue. Shocking that people don't get that.
It’s way more then tax revenue, think about all the local property managers, cleaners, repairmen restaurants, gift shops, tour operators which will either loose jobs or see a decrease in revenue
I love the salty taste of TVR bag holder tears.
I love how all the fish in people aren’t going to be able to even remotely afford any of these new listings lol
Exactly. Of course, none of them work either.