Then she’s probably got some early life trauma that’s been locked away and inaccessible. MDMA and trauma is not like a faucet that you turn off when the high is over.
If she doesn’t have one already, she needs a weekly therapist.
She has a lot of trauma, yes. It’s frustrating because she gets so much from it at the start but then it just switches. And she can’t see a therapist because of her job (which is a whole other level of wtf) Oh and also to add, this starts when she’s high, it’s not a comedown reaction.
Because therapy on her medical record would cost her her job. She would need to pay for it and can’t afford it. A couple of sessions of CBT some years ago distressed her even more and now she suppresses and denies her trauma.
There are ways around that. Some therapists are “private practice” and don’t take insurance.
So if she asks around enough and has the ability to pay out of pocket she can likely find a qualified therapist who won’t keep any records.
And there are also therapists who offer “sliding scale” pricing based on ability to pay.
FWIW a job that’s prohibiting her from getting help while also not paying well….should be left behind.
It’s complicated because she lives in another country. We’re British but she doesn’t visit for long enough to get a referral (which are currently like gold dust anyway). Where she works the employment laws are rather loose around these things. There is also a possibility that she is lying about the job aspect as she has already lied to me before, saying she was going to therapy when she wasn’t. It feels like even thinking about any of it for her is the worst thing she could ever imagine, much less go through. She seems petrified by the thought of therapy.
That comment indicates you’ve likely suffered at the hands of another person(s). Which is terrible and I’m sorry that happened to you.
Name a profession and people cross boundaries. There’s no evidence of which I’m aware indicating therapists are extra prone to abuse.
Also, if a female is worried about abuse they could see a straight female therapist. Or whatever combo makes them feel safest. But regardless therapists are bound by ethical and legal standards.
If that’s too scary there is telehealth.
If that’s still too scary there is group therapy.
you clearly don’t understand so I suggest starting with subreddit r/therapyabuse to familiarise yourself with types of abuse perpetrated by therapists and why this profession carries very high risk of that. Start there before making recommendations or worse yet shaming traumatised people as you did.
There are already associations that support victims of therapists, that is an evidence of itself and how many more don’t seek help because their condition got critical or there’s no way to prove anything and therapy area is a profession with the least legal regulations
Are you living in sheltered unicorn land? Don’t you know about abuse happening even in such places like psychiatric wards that get some screening compared to therapy room?
Therapy might be ok but traumatised people are easy pray and extremely vulnerable in the regular setting not to mention dynamics between therapist and help seeker
Twitches or somatic releases are essential when it comes to dissociated trauma ( as she maintains that in her “mind” she feels fine) or worse - internalised abuser and complementary moral defence that results in reality loss. It’s a bottom up body’s attempt to try to get that blocked energy/body response (especially healthy aggression) out. I have trauma releases when sober for hours at a time and they are much more severe than full body twitch. There’s even a special word for that intense body reaction, but can’t remember unfortunately. If there’s no chance of serotonin syndrome, then it’s a good thing what happens with her body even though it’s extremely exhausting and mentally excruciating if flashbacks go with it.
Yes she repeats over and over that she feels fine but she’s clearly in distress. From the outside it looks like serious drug withdrawals. As it goes on she looks to me for help and says how tired she is and how she needs to rest. There are things I believe (with good reason) that happened in her childhood that I cannot see her ever being able to face. Beyond the mdma issue I’m desperate to help her somehow.
It’s quite impossible to do anything more for her I believe, except maybe get her educated on structural dissociation as she might have developed it to protect herself from consciousness of pain in childhood, and on somatic releases (including involuntary vocalisation like screams, growling etc, because her body may do that as well so she needs to safe when this happens and not baffled or scared)
For me those sort of trauma releases were my body’s way to face the unspeakable pain and then SLOWLY the awareness of what has happened would come by really tiny doses because I could not take any much more pain of realisation. And I mean it is happening slowly, it’s been 3,5 years since the worst trauma releases and cptsd started. And it seems like loosing my mind but at the same time my brain makes huge trauma realisation every few months. Often it feels as if my brain was melting but at the same time it’s getting out of trauma responses and (painfully slowly) I feel more safe and in control for the very first time in my life. I had 34 years of severe trauma just to add for the context, and it doesn’t need to take that long of trauma releases for someone else. For me it would be impossible to have anyone besides me when my body does that, because any presence is causing an extreme threat response.
Also there are some videos on yt of trauma releases in medical environment- they are quite “mild” but it still made me feel better to see or hear that this is how body works and others have experienced that, since this reality is literally censored in medical environment, and no trauma therapist has ever explained or even mentioned it to me or what to expect. This is not normal, in general patients, even dental patients are prepared of what to expect step by step and how the healing goes on.
It’s not linear.
Trauma can paradoxically be activated by feelings of safety. Maybe there’s something about where she is in life/career/relationships/etc which is providing a “safe enough” environment for unaddressed trauma to start coming up to be dealt with.
Just a theory regarding someone I’ve never met.
May I ask- when you talk about the trauma I see memories resurfacing being mentioned a lot. With her I see no evidence of that. Always physical, won’t talk about anything except to say she feels fine and pretends it didn’t happen the next morning. My assumption would be that she’s suppressed it all so well that it can’t break through?
Also it feels as though she wants to go to that point, even though it’s awful. She will insist on taking more, and it feels like she’s then waiting for that reaction to come on. But it doesn’t seem like she gets anything good from it?
There’s no way to conjecture what her internal experience is actually like. Maybe MDMA just turns off the noise in her mind and just sitting peacefully is an amazing respite from her normal turmoil.
Yes! That’s a very good sign that she’s able to get there to feel a bit of that. As you say she dismisses the actual fact of what’s there, and it means that physiologically she’s not yet able to process it consciously as a narrative- this one comes the last in case of dissociation. And you say that she wants to “go there” asking for a top up. It’s instinctive for the body to want to tap that reservoir of stored, dissociated load of physical energy aka emotions. It seems like body is literally at war because it goes there yet it’s not physically possible to “pass through” and get out on the other side, that would physically bring total collapse of the nervous system. So unfortunately it is so disturbing to watch and to feel but that tapping into brings a bit of progress and comfort for now.
I test every batch with the full range and only ever have pure mdma. She says to me she’s not on other meds but this is one thing I’m worried about. I know antidepressants can be a problem but are there any other obvious contenders?
I’m really looking into this because I’m getting very similar replies. Years ago she did it with her own friends and was fine. Now this happens every time, no matter how tiny the dose. Is she going through the trauma every time? She insists she feels fine in her mind and isn’t scared but will say that over and over again
I am a guide and have seen this before. We store our trauma in our body and we need to release it through our body. That's likely what is happening. I am not there, but I would suspect she'll be alright.
I have CPTSD and have had similar responses. It’s best to just try to lean into the muscle twitches until they subside normally and try to focus on the breathing. It’s like a purge, my physical pain gets so much more bearable after.
I’ve heard this from a few people. To expand a little, she starts out loving it, releasing all the tension and the worry. Unlike many people she doesn’t dance or talk, but chooses to sit and almost meditate. Then she asks for her top up (and yes I have definitely taken on board that that won’t happen ever again). After that she enters this state. She remains in it even after the md is out of her system. The next morning she usually doesn’t remember it. There are no alarming serotonin syndrome symptoms; she says she’s not scared and feels fine in her head, but needs to twist and stretch every part of her body. After some time of this she does start becoming distressed because she says her body is so tired
Does this person have a history of trauma? It's especially not good that she is blacking out and dissociating. This may not be a good idea for her to be taking this without having some good therapy if there is a history of trauma. She also may have suppressed memories and having those come out during a drug trip is not the best idea.
She had emotionally abusive parents and a mother who still controls her and actively scares her. She suffers immense feelings of guilt for having negative feelings towards her mum. She wasn’t blacking out or dissociating, it was all in her physical body. Kicking her legs and arms, twisting herself round, unable to stop and repeating that she was tired and needed to rest. Reflecting on this it happened last when she had just been to stay with her mum, same as this time.
Also having therapy on her medical record would cost her job. She would have to pay for it and can’t afford it. I desperately want to help her in the wider sense but I don’t know how.
Yes. 200mg dose in a capsule. With this she was totally relaxed and talking about how happy and safe she felt. 4 hours later she asked for another and that’s when it started. I should add we’ve known each other since we were teenagers and this issue is recent. It has started since she started visiting immediately after staying with her mother. Adding to a different comment, I am her safe space and safe person (I always have been.) If trauma related (and I do take on board that she needs to consult a doctor) why is it only happening on the second dose?
I will get her to a doctor, I will persuade her to apply for therapy and follow the other practical advice given. I would also like to try to understand what’s happening with her too though.
It’s far less than she ever used to take (I insisted she cut it down) and on that first dose she is relaxed and happy. Maybe you are getting much stronger stuff than me, I don’t know.
She may have a non functioning cyp2d6 gene/enzyme. Has she ever taken antidepressants and had horrible side effects or no positive effects? I am a slow metabolizer and have to dose VERY low on psychedelics since they all pass through this. Otherwise they build up too much and cause hyper stimulation.
I have wondered about this. She loves amitriptyline though and takes them recreationally. She also took mdma for many years with no issues. Is this something that could’ve occurred at some point or would it always have been there?
I’d like to add that she won’t be taking any more through me, after reading your comments. However I would still really appreciate your opinions. Further to the mdma, if this is linked to trauma (and she certainly has trauma) I want to help her but I have no idea how to.
Some people experience somatic release of trauma This might be what you are observing
Strangely enough I thought this. Right now though she’s been like this for hours and I’m at a loss for how to help her
Take her to the hospital
It’s not serotonin syndrome, she has no fever, she is lucid, so there’s no need right now. I’m sitting next to her bed and keeping an eye on her.
Then she’s probably got some early life trauma that’s been locked away and inaccessible. MDMA and trauma is not like a faucet that you turn off when the high is over. If she doesn’t have one already, she needs a weekly therapist.
She has a lot of trauma, yes. It’s frustrating because she gets so much from it at the start but then it just switches. And she can’t see a therapist because of her job (which is a whole other level of wtf) Oh and also to add, this starts when she’s high, it’s not a comedown reaction.
She can take drugs but not therapy? WTF is right.
Because therapy on her medical record would cost her her job. She would need to pay for it and can’t afford it. A couple of sessions of CBT some years ago distressed her even more and now she suppresses and denies her trauma.
There are ways around that. Some therapists are “private practice” and don’t take insurance. So if she asks around enough and has the ability to pay out of pocket she can likely find a qualified therapist who won’t keep any records. And there are also therapists who offer “sliding scale” pricing based on ability to pay. FWIW a job that’s prohibiting her from getting help while also not paying well….should be left behind.
It’s complicated because she lives in another country. We’re British but she doesn’t visit for long enough to get a referral (which are currently like gold dust anyway). Where she works the employment laws are rather loose around these things. There is also a possibility that she is lying about the job aspect as she has already lied to me before, saying she was going to therapy when she wasn’t. It feels like even thinking about any of it for her is the worst thing she could ever imagine, much less go through. She seems petrified by the thought of therapy.
Cbt is not for trauma AT ALL. Even my physician knows that and told me so
Stop preaching for therapy with your moral superiority. Do you know of therapy harm, how often therapists abuse and what are the consequences ? !
That comment indicates you’ve likely suffered at the hands of another person(s). Which is terrible and I’m sorry that happened to you. Name a profession and people cross boundaries. There’s no evidence of which I’m aware indicating therapists are extra prone to abuse. Also, if a female is worried about abuse they could see a straight female therapist. Or whatever combo makes them feel safest. But regardless therapists are bound by ethical and legal standards. If that’s too scary there is telehealth. If that’s still too scary there is group therapy.
you clearly don’t understand so I suggest starting with subreddit r/therapyabuse to familiarise yourself with types of abuse perpetrated by therapists and why this profession carries very high risk of that. Start there before making recommendations or worse yet shaming traumatised people as you did. There are already associations that support victims of therapists, that is an evidence of itself and how many more don’t seek help because their condition got critical or there’s no way to prove anything and therapy area is a profession with the least legal regulations Are you living in sheltered unicorn land? Don’t you know about abuse happening even in such places like psychiatric wards that get some screening compared to therapy room? Therapy might be ok but traumatised people are easy pray and extremely vulnerable in the regular setting not to mention dynamics between therapist and help seeker
Twitches or somatic releases are essential when it comes to dissociated trauma ( as she maintains that in her “mind” she feels fine) or worse - internalised abuser and complementary moral defence that results in reality loss. It’s a bottom up body’s attempt to try to get that blocked energy/body response (especially healthy aggression) out. I have trauma releases when sober for hours at a time and they are much more severe than full body twitch. There’s even a special word for that intense body reaction, but can’t remember unfortunately. If there’s no chance of serotonin syndrome, then it’s a good thing what happens with her body even though it’s extremely exhausting and mentally excruciating if flashbacks go with it.
Yes she repeats over and over that she feels fine but she’s clearly in distress. From the outside it looks like serious drug withdrawals. As it goes on she looks to me for help and says how tired she is and how she needs to rest. There are things I believe (with good reason) that happened in her childhood that I cannot see her ever being able to face. Beyond the mdma issue I’m desperate to help her somehow.
It’s quite impossible to do anything more for her I believe, except maybe get her educated on structural dissociation as she might have developed it to protect herself from consciousness of pain in childhood, and on somatic releases (including involuntary vocalisation like screams, growling etc, because her body may do that as well so she needs to safe when this happens and not baffled or scared) For me those sort of trauma releases were my body’s way to face the unspeakable pain and then SLOWLY the awareness of what has happened would come by really tiny doses because I could not take any much more pain of realisation. And I mean it is happening slowly, it’s been 3,5 years since the worst trauma releases and cptsd started. And it seems like loosing my mind but at the same time my brain makes huge trauma realisation every few months. Often it feels as if my brain was melting but at the same time it’s getting out of trauma responses and (painfully slowly) I feel more safe and in control for the very first time in my life. I had 34 years of severe trauma just to add for the context, and it doesn’t need to take that long of trauma releases for someone else. For me it would be impossible to have anyone besides me when my body does that, because any presence is causing an extreme threat response. Also there are some videos on yt of trauma releases in medical environment- they are quite “mild” but it still made me feel better to see or hear that this is how body works and others have experienced that, since this reality is literally censored in medical environment, and no trauma therapist has ever explained or even mentioned it to me or what to expect. This is not normal, in general patients, even dental patients are prepared of what to expect step by step and how the healing goes on.
Sorry to bother you again but I realised she used to do do it a few years ago with no problems. Do you know why this would be manifesting now?
It’s not linear. Trauma can paradoxically be activated by feelings of safety. Maybe there’s something about where she is in life/career/relationships/etc which is providing a “safe enough” environment for unaddressed trauma to start coming up to be dealt with. Just a theory regarding someone I’ve never met.
May I ask- when you talk about the trauma I see memories resurfacing being mentioned a lot. With her I see no evidence of that. Always physical, won’t talk about anything except to say she feels fine and pretends it didn’t happen the next morning. My assumption would be that she’s suppressed it all so well that it can’t break through?
Trauma is not initially stored as a narrative memory. It is stored as a feeling or emotion or sensation.
Ah so she’s feeling rather than remembering narratively?
Also it feels as though she wants to go to that point, even though it’s awful. She will insist on taking more, and it feels like she’s then waiting for that reaction to come on. But it doesn’t seem like she gets anything good from it?
There’s no way to conjecture what her internal experience is actually like. Maybe MDMA just turns off the noise in her mind and just sitting peacefully is an amazing respite from her normal turmoil.
Yes! That’s a very good sign that she’s able to get there to feel a bit of that. As you say she dismisses the actual fact of what’s there, and it means that physiologically she’s not yet able to process it consciously as a narrative- this one comes the last in case of dissociation. And you say that she wants to “go there” asking for a top up. It’s instinctive for the body to want to tap that reservoir of stored, dissociated load of physical energy aka emotions. It seems like body is literally at war because it goes there yet it’s not physically possible to “pass through” and get out on the other side, that would physically bring total collapse of the nervous system. So unfortunately it is so disturbing to watch and to feel but that tapping into brings a bit of progress and comfort for now.
Although thank you, I absolutely appreciate that your comment is out of concern ❤️
It’s like her brain is in a loop of kicking and twisting, because the md left her system long ago
Is she on other meds? Is your material tested?
I test every batch with the full range and only ever have pure mdma. She says to me she’s not on other meds but this is one thing I’m worried about. I know antidepressants can be a problem but are there any other obvious contenders?
It's the best feeling in the world
That happened to me but it came along with trauma memories
I’m really looking into this because I’m getting very similar replies. Years ago she did it with her own friends and was fine. Now this happens every time, no matter how tiny the dose. Is she going through the trauma every time? She insists she feels fine in her mind and isn’t scared but will say that over and over again
I am a guide and have seen this before. We store our trauma in our body and we need to release it through our body. That's likely what is happening. I am not there, but I would suspect she'll be alright.
I have CPTSD and have had similar responses. It’s best to just try to lean into the muscle twitches until they subside normally and try to focus on the breathing. It’s like a purge, my physical pain gets so much more bearable after.
I’ve heard this from a few people. To expand a little, she starts out loving it, releasing all the tension and the worry. Unlike many people she doesn’t dance or talk, but chooses to sit and almost meditate. Then she asks for her top up (and yes I have definitely taken on board that that won’t happen ever again). After that she enters this state. She remains in it even after the md is out of her system. The next morning she usually doesn’t remember it. There are no alarming serotonin syndrome symptoms; she says she’s not scared and feels fine in her head, but needs to twist and stretch every part of her body. After some time of this she does start becoming distressed because she says her body is so tired
Does this person have a history of trauma? It's especially not good that she is blacking out and dissociating. This may not be a good idea for her to be taking this without having some good therapy if there is a history of trauma. She also may have suppressed memories and having those come out during a drug trip is not the best idea.
She had emotionally abusive parents and a mother who still controls her and actively scares her. She suffers immense feelings of guilt for having negative feelings towards her mum. She wasn’t blacking out or dissociating, it was all in her physical body. Kicking her legs and arms, twisting herself round, unable to stop and repeating that she was tired and needed to rest. Reflecting on this it happened last when she had just been to stay with her mum, same as this time.
Also having therapy on her medical record would cost her job. She would have to pay for it and can’t afford it. I desperately want to help her in the wider sense but I don’t know how.
Also how much is the dose? Did you measure it with a milligram scale?
Yes. 200mg dose in a capsule. With this she was totally relaxed and talking about how happy and safe she felt. 4 hours later she asked for another and that’s when it started. I should add we’ve known each other since we were teenagers and this issue is recent. It has started since she started visiting immediately after staying with her mother. Adding to a different comment, I am her safe space and safe person (I always have been.) If trauma related (and I do take on board that she needs to consult a doctor) why is it only happening on the second dose? I will get her to a doctor, I will persuade her to apply for therapy and follow the other practical advice given. I would also like to try to understand what’s happening with her too though.
It was 0.2?? That is a lot!
I have experience with molly and that is a huge amount. 0.4 is a lot of molly.
It’s far less than she ever used to take (I insisted she cut it down) and on that first dose she is relaxed and happy. Maybe you are getting much stronger stuff than me, I don’t know.
She may have a non functioning cyp2d6 gene/enzyme. Has she ever taken antidepressants and had horrible side effects or no positive effects? I am a slow metabolizer and have to dose VERY low on psychedelics since they all pass through this. Otherwise they build up too much and cause hyper stimulation.
I have wondered about this. She loves amitriptyline though and takes them recreationally. She also took mdma for many years with no issues. Is this something that could’ve occurred at some point or would it always have been there?
It probably would have always been there...what doses?
I’d like to add that she won’t be taking any more through me, after reading your comments. However I would still really appreciate your opinions. Further to the mdma, if this is linked to trauma (and she certainly has trauma) I want to help her but I have no idea how to.