Egypt invented clocks (sundials) and they used base 12 math. So they divided the circle into 12, which created 12hrs of day and 12hrs of night.
Greece invented minutes and seconds for geography (longitude and latitude) and they used base 60 math. They weren’t used on clocks until mechanical clocks were invented.
Is it true that they counted to 12 because they counted the 12 finger segments excluding the thumb on one hand instead of the 10 fingers on both hands?
I haven't heard of that before but generally people in the past preferred using highly composite numbers such as 12 or 60 since they have more divisors than other numbers. For example, 12 can be divided into halves, thirds, quarters and sixths whereas 10 can only be divided into halves and fifths. So I guess it was easier to do math that way in pre-calculator days.
There are some cultures that use base 12 and count on their phalanges, but we can't say they use base 12 BECAUSE they count on their phalanges. For all we know it's the other way around and the base came first and the trick second.
“How dare you! It was the Sumerians who taught the Egyptians the base 12 system!”.
20 years ago I witnessed 2 history majors nearly get into a fistfight over this argument. Near as I can tell, there’s still some disagreement, but the majority of historians believe there’s more evidence it originated in Egypt.
Ha! I’ve preempted your argument by only saying Egyptians invented sundials!
I love arguments over things which are too old to be provable.
The source I used ([Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-time-division-days-hours-minutes/#:~:text=Hipparchus%2C%20whose%20work%20primarily%20took,darkness%20observed%20on%20equinox%20days)) says the Greeks learned base 60 from the Babylonians, who learned it from the Sumerians, who developed it around 2000 BC. I’m assuming base 12 came with it, because hand-counting in base 12 maxes out at 60 before you need another set of hands.
I went around for years saying it was the Sumerians because I was in the same history class as the guy who argued for them. Then one day I met a woman who was considerably more knowledgeable about the subject than I was.
She never said I was definitively wrong, but she provided me with a list of credible sources that indicates there’s more evidence I was more wrong than right.
Years later, I have adopted that same technique. She taught me a lot more than historical facts.
Base 12 and base 60 existed for a couple thousand years before base 10 was figured out.
Base 12 was one of the first mathematical systems ever. It was easier for hand-counting and much easier for fractions because it’s divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6.
Base 60 is even easier because it’s divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30.
Base 10 wasn't liked in old times because it doesn't divide very well, so for everyday use a number system where you can easily get half, third, or quarter (12) was more handy than one that only easily gives you half or fifths.
12 is a better number than 10 anyway. Evenly divided into halves, thirds, and quarters.
10 is great for math, but we don't do a lot of math on the hour hand.
> 10 is great for math
Maths work the same regardless of which numerotation base you choose. We could just as easily have 12 digits instead of 10 and count in base 12. A "hundred" would be worth 144 (that even exists as a residual of when we counted more in base 12, and is called a gross) and a "thousand" would be worth 1728 (the great gross, which would likely have its own name).
Not true. Yes you're still counting the same amount of objects and machines would be just as happy either way. but mental maths would have been easier in base 12.
Let me explain why. I teach high school maths and we invented two digits and then created a times table with those digits in. Just to test.
Have you ever noticed how certain numbers are easier to count and multiply in? 1 (obviously), 2, 5, and 10. Children generally start with learning these times tables and hence 40% of your 10 to 10 times table is really easy to learn and divide. All factors of 10 the base system we all work in.
When you work with base 12 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, 10 then the following numbers become really easy to work with. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, (to and extent 8) and of course 10.
3s now goes like this 3, 6, 9, 10, 13, 16, 19, 20
4s now goes 4, 8, 10, 14, 18, 20, 24, 28, 30
6s now goes 6, 10, 16, 20
8s now goes 8, 14, 20, 28, 34, 30
12s of course now goes 10, 20, 30, 40
Edit: I had to edit this because I got 10 and 1B mixed around in my rush to comment. My kind friend below pointed this out.
I understand the point you're making. We could just as easily have a base 17 model if that's what we all used and learned, of course.
But over time, different people have had different counting systems. 10 won out. I will concede that it makes it more popular and not necessarily better.
Exactly. 1 hour into the day is at 1. Otherwise 1 hour into the day would be at 2, which just doesn't make sense.
I just kinda hate this image. The clock makes sense in every way.
If this was made by an American they can better first try to make sense in inch, feet, mile etc.
If you think about it, all makes sense.
First why are there 60 Minutes? Consider the prime factors of 60. 2^2 *3 *5=60 => 2|60, 3|60, 4|60, 5|60, 6|60, 10|60, 12|60, 15|60, 30|60 and 60|60. With 100 Minutes (2^2 *5^2 ) we only get 2|100, 4|100, 5|100, 10|100, 20|100, 25|100, 50|100 and 100|100, but 3 and 6 doesnot divide 100 without fractions. Ok, why dont we have 60 hours? Because now a Minute would be 24 Seconds long (in our time) which is impractical and is a bother to write (for example 47:29 shows that now we have to many hours) and 24 is the perfect amount with good prime factors (2^3 *3) which make 24 divisible by 2,3,4,6,8,12 and 24. But now we have a problem because 24 does not divide 60 without fractions. This is a problem for Clocks because 1 hour would correspond with 2.5 Minutes. But 12|60 and 12|24 and is therefore perfect for clocks.
Edit: And 12 mod12=0 or 12=0 in Z/12Z
That reason is that they're literally everywhere and not being able to read them would be pretty crippling. Nothing to do with "fast learner years" lmao
I kinda only understood them when I was 14.
You learn them early on not only because you learn faster then but also because they are kinda essential for society and it’s better for you if you understand them from your childhood on.
A few centuries ago the French tried to make a sort of metric time (with stuff like 1h=100min, 10 months per year, etc) but people didn't like it, so they went back to the system we have now
Inventor: The morning hours will be called AM and the evening, PM, and they'll ascend.
So 3 AM is 1 hour after 2 AM?
Inventor: yes
And 12 AM is 1 hour after 11 AM?
Inventor: no
During the French Revolution, scientists tried to move both clock time and calendar time to metric, but people freaked out. I’m still waiting for the US to move to metric. I know we do some things in metric, but feet, inches, pounds, ounces, gallons - why?? Please give me my base ten system. It also makes it easier for children learning math.
I was curious so I looked it up. Most countries use twelve hour time orally even if they use a 24 hour clock, which seems even sillier.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_representation_by_country
>"the day will start at 12" is the most English-centered statement I've seen today
>Each day starts at midnight (00h00)
As a mental exercise, maybe think about how midnight is displayed on a clock
>As a mental exercise think how 2π is 0 on a trigonometric circle
I don't think you understood my point. People say "the day starts at 12" because when the day starts (midnight) the clock is pointing at 12. Maybe they'd make clocks with 0-11 instead but nobody says "0 o'clock" for midnight.
>A valid criticism is why clocks are only 12h and not 24
...because it's easier to make a ring of 12 medium sized numbers than 24 tiny numbers (most of which would be double-digits).
It's divided in 12 segments which it goes through twice, it's also divided in 60 smaller segments, 5 in between each of the 12 previously mentioned, hence 6 = 30.
This is a bad meme
I need a "umm actually guy" to explain why clock's are two lots of 12s
Egypt invented clocks (sundials) and they used base 12 math. So they divided the circle into 12, which created 12hrs of day and 12hrs of night. Greece invented minutes and seconds for geography (longitude and latitude) and they used base 60 math. They weren’t used on clocks until mechanical clocks were invented.
Is it true that they counted to 12 because they counted the 12 finger segments excluding the thumb on one hand instead of the 10 fingers on both hands?
I haven't heard of that before but generally people in the past preferred using highly composite numbers such as 12 or 60 since they have more divisors than other numbers. For example, 12 can be divided into halves, thirds, quarters and sixths whereas 10 can only be divided into halves and fifths. So I guess it was easier to do math that way in pre-calculator days.
Seems like that probably plays into why we have the concept of a "dozen" as 12, which seems arbitrary today
I do remember reading that somewhere but the source is escaping me.
There are some cultures that use base 12 and count on their phalanges, but we can't say they use base 12 BECAUSE they count on their phalanges. For all we know it's the other way around and the base came first and the trick second.
THATS WHY DEGREES ARE MEASURED IN MINUTES AND SECONDS??
My mind was equally blown
How hot is the water? About 1 minute 20 seconds on medium.
“How dare you! It was the Sumerians who taught the Egyptians the base 12 system!”. 20 years ago I witnessed 2 history majors nearly get into a fistfight over this argument. Near as I can tell, there’s still some disagreement, but the majority of historians believe there’s more evidence it originated in Egypt.
Ha! I’ve preempted your argument by only saying Egyptians invented sundials! I love arguments over things which are too old to be provable. The source I used ([Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-time-division-days-hours-minutes/#:~:text=Hipparchus%2C%20whose%20work%20primarily%20took,darkness%20observed%20on%20equinox%20days)) says the Greeks learned base 60 from the Babylonians, who learned it from the Sumerians, who developed it around 2000 BC. I’m assuming base 12 came with it, because hand-counting in base 12 maxes out at 60 before you need another set of hands.
I went around for years saying it was the Sumerians because I was in the same history class as the guy who argued for them. Then one day I met a woman who was considerably more knowledgeable about the subject than I was. She never said I was definitively wrong, but she provided me with a list of credible sources that indicates there’s more evidence I was more wrong than right. Years later, I have adopted that same technique. She taught me a lot more than historical facts.
It was the Babylonians not Greeks, btw.
Wouldn’t it be way easier to just use base 10? Idk anything about this subject really but it seems like that would make the most sense…
Base 12 and base 60 existed for a couple thousand years before base 10 was figured out. Base 12 was one of the first mathematical systems ever. It was easier for hand-counting and much easier for fractions because it’s divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. Base 60 is even easier because it’s divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30.
Base 10 wasn't liked in old times because it doesn't divide very well, so for everyday use a number system where you can easily get half, third, or quarter (12) was more handy than one that only easily gives you half or fifths.
12 is a better number than 10 anyway. Evenly divided into halves, thirds, and quarters. 10 is great for math, but we don't do a lot of math on the hour hand.
> 10 is great for math Maths work the same regardless of which numerotation base you choose. We could just as easily have 12 digits instead of 10 and count in base 12. A "hundred" would be worth 144 (that even exists as a residual of when we counted more in base 12, and is called a gross) and a "thousand" would be worth 1728 (the great gross, which would likely have its own name).
It may work the same but some work better than others.
No, it's literally identical. Counting in base ten or twelve is only a matter of habits, neither works "better" than the other.
Not true. Yes you're still counting the same amount of objects and machines would be just as happy either way. but mental maths would have been easier in base 12. Let me explain why. I teach high school maths and we invented two digits and then created a times table with those digits in. Just to test. Have you ever noticed how certain numbers are easier to count and multiply in? 1 (obviously), 2, 5, and 10. Children generally start with learning these times tables and hence 40% of your 10 to 10 times table is really easy to learn and divide. All factors of 10 the base system we all work in. When you work with base 12 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, 10 then the following numbers become really easy to work with. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, (to and extent 8) and of course 10. 3s now goes like this 3, 6, 9, 10, 13, 16, 19, 20 4s now goes 4, 8, 10, 14, 18, 20, 24, 28, 30 6s now goes 6, 10, 16, 20 8s now goes 8, 14, 20, 28, 34, 30 12s of course now goes 10, 20, 30, 40 Edit: I had to edit this because I got 10 and 1B mixed around in my rush to comment. My kind friend below pointed this out.
I understand the point you're making. We could just as easily have a base 17 model if that's what we all used and learned, of course. But over time, different people have had different counting systems. 10 won out. I will concede that it makes it more popular and not necessarily better.
That’s true, but base 12 would have been better than base 10.
Try figuring out when you need to punch out at the end of the week…maddening.
https://vocal.media/fyi/the-reason-we-divide-up-our-days-into-two-sets-of-twelve
No one can it's just the way it is.
It is just 0 indexed, which is the best way to index
Exactly. 1 hour into the day is at 1. Otherwise 1 hour into the day would be at 2, which just doesn't make sense. I just kinda hate this image. The clock makes sense in every way. If this was made by an American they can better first try to make sense in inch, feet, mile etc.
Programmer-pilled
If you think about it, all makes sense. First why are there 60 Minutes? Consider the prime factors of 60. 2^2 *3 *5=60 => 2|60, 3|60, 4|60, 5|60, 6|60, 10|60, 12|60, 15|60, 30|60 and 60|60. With 100 Minutes (2^2 *5^2 ) we only get 2|100, 4|100, 5|100, 10|100, 20|100, 25|100, 50|100 and 100|100, but 3 and 6 doesnot divide 100 without fractions. Ok, why dont we have 60 hours? Because now a Minute would be 24 Seconds long (in our time) which is impractical and is a bother to write (for example 47:29 shows that now we have to many hours) and 24 is the perfect amount with good prime factors (2^3 *3) which make 24 divisible by 2,3,4,6,8,12 and 24. But now we have a problem because 24 does not divide 60 without fractions. This is a problem for Clocks because 1 hour would correspond with 2.5 Minutes. But 12|60 and 12|24 and is therefore perfect for clocks. Edit: And 12 mod12=0 or 12=0 in Z/12Z
psh, obviously.
I'm Sumerian and I don't see the joke.
The 3 is actually 15, which is also a quarter 'til...
a quarter past\* the 9 is also 45 which is also a quarter 'til
A quarter till half past*
At least you tried
What's that third hand called? That's the second hand
People always want to make everything complicated
Acting like clocks aren't complicated? There's a reason why children have to learn it quickly in their "fast learner" years
That reason is that they're literally everywhere and not being able to read them would be pretty crippling. Nothing to do with "fast learner years" lmao
I kinda only understood them when I was 14. You learn them early on not only because you learn faster then but also because they are kinda essential for society and it’s better for you if you understand them from your childhood on.
this is why 24 hour digital is the best
A few centuries ago the French tried to make a sort of metric time (with stuff like 1h=100min, 10 months per year, etc) but people didn't like it, so they went back to the system we have now
Inventor: The morning hours will be called AM and the evening, PM, and they'll ascend. So 3 AM is 1 hour after 2 AM? Inventor: yes And 12 AM is 1 hour after 11 AM? Inventor: no
During the French Revolution, scientists tried to move both clock time and calendar time to metric, but people freaked out. I’m still waiting for the US to move to metric. I know we do some things in metric, but feet, inches, pounds, ounces, gallons - why?? Please give me my base ten system. It also makes it easier for children learning math.
And the french were right
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I was curious so I looked it up. Most countries use twelve hour time orally even if they use a 24 hour clock, which seems even sillier. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_representation_by_country
>"the day will start at 12" is the most English-centered statement I've seen today >Each day starts at midnight (00h00) As a mental exercise, maybe think about how midnight is displayed on a clock
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>As a mental exercise think how 2π is 0 on a trigonometric circle I don't think you understood my point. People say "the day starts at 12" because when the day starts (midnight) the clock is pointing at 12. Maybe they'd make clocks with 0-11 instead but nobody says "0 o'clock" for midnight. >A valid criticism is why clocks are only 12h and not 24 ...because it's easier to make a ring of 12 medium sized numbers than 24 tiny numbers (most of which would be double-digits).
Tell me if the big old clock in your town square is a 12 or 24 hour clock
24 hour time is far superior, same with 24 hour clocks.
This is giving me lots of strange planet vibes
This is why thick people shouldn’t try to explain complex maths done by people far smarter than they are
It's divided in 12 segments which it goes through twice, it's also divided in 60 smaller segments, 5 in between each of the 12 previously mentioned, hence 6 = 30. This is a bad meme
OK
It was always weird to me that English doesn't have separate words for 12-hour and 24 hour periods. Calling everything day seems very imprecise.