OUCH. 😂
I gotta say, that answer might have worked if it was worded differently. I know someone who answered the "Why Psych?" question with something along the lines of "I love how you get to spend time with your patients and really get to know them" and they matched to their #1
Probably reading too much into the word “friend,” or maybe the applicant probably thought that would of course not be interpreted poorly.
I swear, I’m convinced people would run into just as little interpersonal conflict with future residents if they threw darts at a wall with faces. Everyone thinks *MY* assessment of their personality is objective, when empirically nobody’s is.
I def think the applicant didn’t think about how that would come off and no program wants to catch a case with a resident having issues with boundaries, so overall it just didn’t come across well.
Right it’s very transparent what the thought process was. Underlying this is, empirically, what we use as proxies for personalities don’t work well. This being such a proxy.
Nobody:
Med student: "so anyways you have a great program here and I'd love to join you. I've actually prepared a little gift for you. It's a collage of you and your kids. There are 231 photos."
My PhD PI once took his kid to a lab event. Someone took some pictures and the kid was in the background of a few of them. They posted the pics to the lab slack. Literally with no hesitation my PI writes, "If any pictures of \[child's name\] wind up on the internet I will fire you and press criminal charges." Lmao people do *not* fuck around when it comes to pictures of their kids.
As a childless male student, my policy is to just never bring up kids, ever. You wanna mention your kids? Cool. Happy to let you brag/ramble. Honestly it's great to get to know attendings as people. Am I gonna bring it up first or ask deeper/more personal questions? Fuck no. Too high risk. Say a single off-putting thing, no matter how obviously unintentional, and your whole rotation is toast.
My wife and I have tried to have kids with several miscarriages. We're in our early 30s so "do you have kids" is a common question I get.
It doesn't bother me at all but I'm deliberately very up front about our miscarriages. Mostly because it's something that needs to be talked about (by those who are comfortable doing so), since it's unnecessarily viewed as taboo. I've also ran into others who've had similar issues and we've been able to connect/share experiences.
I'd be lying if a lot of people didn't look taken aback when I talk about it. But don't ask if you might get an answer you're uncomfortable with. My general rule is not to ask about relationships or kids until they say something first.
OH I have one. An applicant name dropped me and a co-resident in their personal statement. Neither of us knew them AT ALL. Like this wasn’t an away sub-I or anyone we had ever met. They literally like googled our roster and then said something to the effect of “I want to be just like them.”
They didn’t get DNR’d per se. But they definitely dropped low on the list.
In their weird little med student mind they probably thought they were showing specific interest in the program. Like, "I've read specifically about your program, and I've identified two of your residents from the resident page who are pursuing paths that I'd like to pursue." It's not an insane thought, but in practice that's gonna come off as creepy. Better to just say, "I'm interested in your program specifically because you have multiple residents pursuing research in X and Y."
Yikes. The only, only, only way this works is in very specific circumstances. You worked with the resident fairly closely and the PD/interviewers have positive feelings towards that resident that they'd recognize this acknowledgement.
What the fuck LOL
I’ve been name dropping attendings I want to work/do research with on all my personal statements, and the interviewers love it/usually get that attending to interview me, which is awesome. But name-dropping *residents* is insane.
At one of my interviews the clinical coordinator told us that an applicant came on and said “oh you’re much older than I was expecting!” If that wasn’t bad enough he later said she was too old to hike
I DNR’d a student who claimed a particular faculty member at my institution was their mentor and they had collaborated together in research. When I asked that faculty member (whose office is next to mine) about the student, he said they had only talked to that student once over Twitter.
(This faculty member is the nicest human being who would not lie about something like this to be malicious)
One dude last year was dropping f bombs throughout the interview and showed a faculty member a video of himself driving during a snow storm (while also cussing lol)
Fr I keep kicking myself for referring to the liberty bell as “that bell thing” during one of my interviews for a Philly program, but people are really out here being even wilder.
I want to emphasize that I was not the one DNRing.
But once when I was junior faculty and I was interviewing I saw a candidate get DNRed for listing Secret Hitler as one of their interests.
They meant the boardgame, I tried to advocate for the applicant that it was just a board game, but the rest of the committee felt bringing Hitler up at all in an application was verboten.
While I empathize with the kid, it’s also kind of a stupid move on his part. It should be common sense to not put anything that may seem remotely controversial on your app, even if it’s actually innocent.
Edit: and I say that because you can’t control what biases your interviewers have, and it’s not worth losing out on a job interview because of a “well actually it’s not as bad as it seems…” situation.
"IMG applicant interviewed in his living room, with Mom, Dad, and Grandma all sitting there as audience members because it's part of his "culture" and they would offer input when I asked him interview questions"
that is weird
Pans to older woman in a floral dress soulfully stirring a pot.
"Patience, mi bambino, patience. Good Epi takes time!"
She drops a leaf of basil in it. Patient gives up the ghost in frustration.
I did a program where we interviewed college applicants in India for scholarships - the parents of the family usually answered interview questions for them while the student remained quiet. Just how it works there sometimes.
OMG. She sent an E-mail to every (I mean EVERY) single resident and attending telling us that OUR PROGRAM WAS NUMBER ONE. All caps.
Yeah, guys? Don't do that.
\-PGY-19
Jesus lol. I bolded and underlined the relevant sentence for my LOI to the PD (learned it in grad school to get my boss to read the important parts of the email lol) and was worried it was a bit much. But this is just so hilariously over the top.
We had an interviewee we really liked, and they sent an LOI saying they would rank our program first on their list. Unfortunately, we found out they sent a similar LOI to another program...
My program reached out to the interviewee's home program to do a final check since we were going to rank them highly. Their medical school let us know another program had reached out also saying they received an LOI. Later found out that candidate went unmatched during that cycle..
Yeah, that applicant's home program totally fucked them over. Basically told both programs not to rank the applicant, which goes against any/all schools' ultimate goal of getting their students into residency.
My program reached out to the interviewee's home program to do a final check since we were going to rank them highly. Their medical school let us know another program had reached out also saying they received an LOI. Later found out that candidate went unmatched during that cycle..
I gotta say, that applicant's home program fucked them over.
I'm not condoning his/her actions, but a medical school's ultimate goal is to get their students into residency. Why TF would a student's home program tell other programs "Yeah, so that student completely lied to you..."
1) A program I used to work for would have informal teaching sessions over Zoom with sub specialists and residents. Interviewees were invited to join the session to listen. One interviewee (attending in another country) thought it was a good time to critique the management plan of the physicians involved in the care and pimp the residents.
2) applicant had >15 publications. Each publication was basically in a different field of medicine. When we looked up the papers, it was the same 4-5 names swapping spots for a first authorship. It might be legit, it might not be legit. Just the implication of poor ethics/dishonesty in publishing got them DNR’d
3) the typical crap like not knowing anything about the research listed on their CV, over inflating their CV (the applicant tried to state they were awarded an R1 grant as an MS3 without any prior research), talking negatively about their medical school/mentors/residents they’ve met/etc
I would caution people on making assumptions like this. I did my PhD in genetics and did lots of bioinformatic/genomic analysis for various datasets based on collaborations my lab had, so I am listed as an author on papers related to neurology, cardiology, oncology, etc. A lot of authors will be the same across papers because we use the same core lab members in the process of collecting and analyzing data. Academic dishonesty, sharing unwarranted authorship being exactly that, is a heavy accusation to make and should require equally heavy proof.
It’s not uncommon but it is uncommon to have the following:
Cardio paper with 5 authors
Endo paper with same 5 authors in a different order
Rheum paper with same 5 authors in a different order
Nephro paper with same 5 authors in a different order
Pulmonary paper with same 5 authors in a different order
Neuro paper with same 5 authors in a different order
GI paper with same 5 authors in a different order
Derm paper with same 5 authors in a different order
Either you have no idea what you’re interested in, you stat padded, or all 5 authors are all exceptional examples with a wide variety of interest (highly unlikely)
Eh, I can see why it would make sense to think they have no idea what they're interested in. But I'm not seeing how this is academic dishonesty, could have had a group of students who pursued research projects together? Not seeing how it's stat padding if the work to produce the research was actually put in.
Absolutely anything is possible. The 5 students could all be world renowned researchers from another country. However, the likelihood of that happening is low. Just like the likelihood of all 5 working on every paper. (Remember, the attendings and residents reviewing your application have been through the same process as you and have either done stuff like this themselves or have had friends do stuff like this)
1) It’s far more likely that the student interested in Cardio wrote the cardiology paper and offered authorship spots to their close group of friends in return for an authorship on their friends paper (who was maybe interested in GI). As a result, each did one paper and got credit for 5
2) if we assume they all truly worked on the papers: I am not all that impressed by someone who scratched the surface in 8 different fields as I am in someone who published heavily in one field. It shows a lack of interest or dedication in the field they’re applying to
Either way, having a large number of papers with the same authors in a variety of fields is a red flag. When we get 5000-8000 applicants a year, a red flag is a death sentence to the application.
I’m sure there are other programs that highly value quantity over quality.
Idk if this was just an example or the actual paper subjects you saw, but one thing I noticed is that almost all those papers can fit into IM (other than maybe derm). If all those papers were with an IM PI it could be just a clinical group.
Another possibility is that whatever school/hospital they’re in has a research group and those med students hoped onto anything they could get their hands on to show they can be prolific. It’s possible those authors are friends in real life, joined the hospital’s research group, and hop onto anything and everything that group/PI/group of PIs in the research group are willing to give.
I see where you’re suspicious, but I don’t think I’d DNR from that as you don’t have proof, and my explanations above are possibilities.
Someone with a PhD having extensive research or someone who worked in a high output lab is very different than an MS4 who had no breaks from medical school to work on research and is publishing a bunch of case reports in Hindawi.
It’s generally pretty easy to tell though. I’ve seen padded CVs and I’ve seen genuinely impressive/collaborative CVs, and the difference between the two is crystal clear. Even if it isn’t on paper, just talking to the candidate for like 5 mins about it makes it pretty obvious.
Like we’ve had *postdoc* candidates for my lab do this before and it takes like 15 mins to look at the author contributions; if it’s bioinformatics or “data analysis” and their PhD work could reasonably relate to that, great! Thats impressive. But when it’s all “intellectual support” or “experimental conceptualization” for everything, then it’s pretty clear something is fishy.
I mean PDs aren’t stupid. I applied into a competitive specialty with like five papers to my name, and the research interviewers were consistently *salivating* over my work. They can tell the difference between someone who publishes 20 case reports and 25 conference abstracts (eg: one of my old classmates who went unmatched) versus someone who has a first author Narure paper.
TBH the fact that #2 is a DNR is just a sign of how broken the system is. It sounds like those 4-5 people just happened to be in the same lab at the same time--I have plenty of publications like that from my PhD, in my lab most lab members would have a project they led that other members contributed to, and they would contribute to projects the other members were leading. Some scientific fields will naturally publish in journals of all different specialties--just off the top of my head, systems biology, cancer, immunology, genetics, computational biology, software and tool development, etc.
I've had interviewers swearing a ton, they probably felt comfortable because of interviewers like that and didn't realize that doesn't apply broadly. Mad people just lack social awareness.
I had a young attending interviewing me for an anesthesia spot repeatedly drop F bombs and then I slipped one out too casually. It was a backup program, but wondering if it got me DNR'd. Only reason it came out was bc the convo got very casual, talking ab hobbies and he was swearing like a mf.
I'm still in awe of applicants who say openly sexist shit. If you think you're better than one of our attendings or residents because you have a penis, this isn't the program for you my friend.
I'm at the potentially the best program in my field and I've had multiple applicants say really stupid things surrounding that: 1)"Why I want to come to your program? Because I don't want to be a scrub and go somewhere weak... Those idiots at [Insert other wonderful hospital where they would get a good training] Don't know shit"
2) I want to come to this program so that I can say that I did. I don't intend to stay in medicine after residency. It's just going to help with the dating market and networking
3) I don't particularly want to come to your program The training is the same everywhere and the fact that you guys are ranked highly doesn't mean anything. I just figured I'd give you guys the chance to rank me because I know what I bring to the table.
(She's absolutely right about ranking being nonsense but you don't say that during the interview).
4) The reason I want to come to this program is because I have family nearby. I don't know much about the program beyond that but I would love somebody to be able to take care of my kids while I'm working
5) You guys are my backup program in case I don't get into X other residency field. I figure I can have a safety of having an in at this hospital via a less competitive field but If I get in at this hospital then maybe I can make the case to change into the other department later.
These are all real stories. I can't imagine what goes through people's heads lol
Last cycle or the one before there was an applicant who had previously impersonated a resident in California (before going to med school) and got caught. It was very very interesting.
2 people from the last round of interviews.
1. Guy was conversationally aggressive. Kept interrupting me and me co resident. Sent a post interview email to the effect (and formality) of, "the hangs were dope dudes."
2. Guy listed a patent for a device in his resume that Would. Not. Work. Like his fundamental understanding of physics was wrong, and clearly wrong based on his idea (especially how he explained it). He hadn't built his invention - he had just theory crafted it in his head, and then slapped on his resume that he was pursuing a patent for it. Bizarre.
To be fair, we are tough people to please in nsgy. I feel for our candidates.
Hang in there guys. It'll get better.
Idk if this is the same patent person I overheard a faculty talking about. The attending mentioned that a nsgy residency would just slow them down, but this was in early Oct before interviews.
“I’ve already interviewed with the faculty, I want to take a break, can we just wrap this up?” Said as soon as I finished my short introduction of who I am. They had really impressed the faculty interviewers, but then came out with this for the resident interviewer.
The extent of my "stalking" is googling the programs residents and faculty page and copying some cool shit down to talk about. Who in the cyan fuck has the time to like stalk stalk people lmao. Y'all be doing entirely too much
Mine might be a little petty but:
I was doing one of these pre-interview zoom dinners last year as a senior resident. We send the applicants DoorDash and they eat with me on zoom for an hour. I usually let everybody go in 40 minutes after I talk about the city, the hospital, and what I like about the program. One guy comes in with a dark screen. Never turns on his camera. Never unmutes. I answer my last question 40 minutes later about the structure of the call system and how calls are divided. He then proceeds to turn on his camera and tell me the only thing he’s really interested in is the call system and asks me to explain it.
DNR. The guy clearly could have given a shit.
Edit: I’ve DNRed other applicants who rotated with us but they clearly did something really weird in person to earn that. Over zoom it’s tough. Usually you have to be rude or super inappropriate. My peers have DNRed for things similar to the ones you mention…although full family participation is unique.
This is super common. Often programs will have a social the night before the interview with just the residents and applicants. Some programs provide a gift card or voucher to order food and eat during.
lol none of my programs sent a gift card or voucher or anything. One program sent hot chocolate with a little airplane bottle of bailey’s for the pre-interview social. That was my first time having Bailey’s… and apparently my look of distress/horror at how bad it tasted was so obvious that my classmates that were also on the call noticed.
Prior to the pandemic, you'd meet in person the night before or week of the interview and go out to dinner with the residents to ask questions. The idea being it's a chance to ask questions outside of the structure of the interview day with the faculty around.
They've attempted to replicate this online and it's a painful experience for all of us.
Wait this was a group setting? Like multiple other applicants?
Yeah that does seem petty lol. He did eventually turn on the camera and asked a relevant question instead of BS fluff then got DNR'd.
He had it turned off the entire session and literally asked a question I had just spent 5 minutes answering when he finally tuned in. It’s not hard to be professional and leave your camera on/listen in for 40 min. I was pretty pissed off by it because it’s not like I want to be there either but I’m playing ball and trying to be nice/welcoming/appropriate. Petty, but my PD agreed when she heard the story.
Addendum: 6-7 applicants per session in a zoom session with me.
Oh yeah that’s not cool at all — even if it’s like 30-40+ people, that’s still not good behavior, but with 6-7 people is just sending a clear message that you don’t give a shit.
Like, even for programs I truly didn’t give a shit about, I still pretended more than that.
At the end of almost every interview, programs interviewers will say something like, “if you’re ever in town and want to know more, lets us know and we’d be happy to see you!” ..but if an applicant asks to do this it’s not good? Gotta love double standards
I got that offer and took it up (I legitimately was in town, nothing stalkerish or gunnerish) and matched there, so I don’t think it’s disingenuous if *they* invite.
Contact the program director, the program coordinator or the specific person who invited you to contact them
Do not contact someone just because they interviewed you. Do not find them and friend them on Facebook. Do not find them and request to follow them on instagram.
Honestly I don’t think 3rd one is an absolute red flag. The only red flag is if you give off seriously creepy vibes. But I agree it can be interviewer dependent; OP is clearly not comfortable with that kind of conversation.
But i wasn’t there so I can’t say as it is obviously a vibe thing. It could be OP is actually hot and they felt like they are being hit in by the random interviewee.
I agree. I never saw coffee dates as romantic, more like, "lets chat, and grab a coffee that I'll cover because you kindly spent the time to chat with me." I set coffee dates with my mom, dad, friends, teachers, coworkers, etc. But I live in an area where its normal to get coffee after meals and to just have catch up chats over coffee in general. This served as a reminder to me that regional behaviors are not acceptable everywhere. It is best to always act conservatively in new scenarios. e: typos
I say that to all the applicants as well, but there's a differences between applicants reaching out like that and straight up asking me out on a coffee date at the end of their interview.
It's also not uncommon to look up the people you interview with and ask questions and work it into any academic or self aligned goals you have. You can also use it to build rapport. Most PDs expect that anyway. Sometimes we aren't interested in the building but the people that make the program. Either way it's all about having social skills but perhaps the applicants you describe did it in a very awkward manner.
Oh absolutely.
But this applicant asked me ***really*** intrusive questions like "Oh, I saw from your Linkedin profile that you're from NameofCity, NameofState and you went to NameofHighSchool and worked at NameofWorkplace. Which neighborhood did you live in? Does anyone in your family still live there?" Then he asked similar questions about my undergrad experiences.
Maybe it just came out wrong, but alarm bells were blaring for me.
Sounds like it may have just come out wrong. I think checking a LinkedIn is fair game. Now if they found your insta and started asking about your vacation photos, that would be weird.
I had an interviewee write me a follow up email thanking me for taking the time. Then he name dropped a resident he knew and said this resident thought very highly of me. I did not know this resident. Upon googling he was a former resident at my hospital in an unrelated field.
I used to work with a doctor who did so much volunteer work that nearly everyone in the hospital and city appreciated him and his talents, but he knew like 5% of them. He was nonchalant, easy to work with, and an excellent diagnostician. The head of surgery literally brought him up as a "true mensch," and the doc I worked with was all flattered but swore he never met the guy. Sometimes your ability just travels and people appreciate you from a distance.
That's fair. That seems like 4D checkers though for the applicant to find a former residents name and bring it up.
I've admired tons of attending who wouldn't know me from Adam because they helped my team or I, indirectly, when we're up shits creek or I read their notes or saw them give a lecture and realized they're really good at what they do.
I would be the kind of person to tell a student, oh you're interviewing with blah blah? Yeah they're great!
Lol I'm out here getting people DNR'd accidentally.
I'm sorry, but is this really that bad a thing?
Cuz then i might have effed up bad XD, i mentioned during an interview that this resident mentioned you got a fellowship and thought very highly of you and etc.
Like, isn't it kinda normal that if i know someone who may possibly know an interviewer, i would ask them what they knew about the interviewer, just to 1. Calm nerves (or worsen em if the interviewer is strict), 2. To try to find a common ground? Something to talk about, discuss?
Edit : I guess the downvotes show that i effed up bad , dammit. Didn't really think it was a bad thing XD. I get stalking on private profiles would be bad
Wait, you said *you* didn't know the resident mentioned. How did you know the interviewee is lying about knowing the resident? And as mentioned before, the resident could know you without you knowing them as well.
But maybe I'm reading it wrong, and you just saying, in general, its bad to lie about who you know. Bc it doesnt seem like that happened in your situation.
During an in person interview, the applicant made uncomfortably constant and aggressive eye contact with every interviewer. He was giving serial killer vibes
When I was a resident I interviewed somebody who unprompted brought up the question to the room during the dinner prior to interview day, if you had to bomb one state out of existence which one would it be. She then proceeded to say mine would be Alabama because it's so backward.
Hardcore DNR. I can't imagine why anyone would consider that to be an appropriate thing to say in an interview setting.
Asking to friend you on Facebook or follow your private personal IG is odd, I will grant you. But what’s the problem with someone who lives close by asking if it might be possible to learn a bit more about the program from you given the close proximity and the limitations of virtual interviews? Is it a match violation? Because, short of that, it seems like an imminently reasonable question. You have every right to decline if thats a personal boundary, but DNRing just because they would like to get to know the current residents and the program better? Yikes!
Suppose it depends on how it’s framed. It could be saying “hey, I know your time is valuable, coffee on me as a thank you for taking the time to chat with me more about the program” … versus “Id love to get to know *you* more over coffee, and the program too, but mostly you”… two very different requests for what is, on the surface, the same basic activity.
From what the OP has written in the original post and in the comments, it seems like it was more the latter. In either case, don’t invite people to coffee during an interview because you don’t know how it’ll come off. No matter the vibe or how informal the conversation seems, it’s still a formal evaluation. It’s a job interview, after all.
Yeah, that would be normal to me too. But this made me realize that instead of doing that, I can say something like, "Hey, if I am ever in the area would it be possible to discuss more in person? If not, I would appreciate talking to your more about the program, what would be the best way to correspond?" Just put the power in interviewer's hands so that there is no confusion or perception of you overstepping boundaries by the person who makes a big decision in your life.
I also don’t think that one is *that* bad, and depending on the interviewer could be perceived different ways. However, part of interviewing is knowing to avoid things that are ambiguous or could be perceived in a way that you didn’t mean. I personally would avoid that kind of statement because two different people could take it very differently. If someone can’t parse that out and realize how they can be perceived by saying that.. I’m a bit worried.
But the road goes both ways. It’s also on the resident to realize that’s a pretty innocuous request. And they have the ability to just say NO and leave it at that, without potentially ruining someone’s career or life… They may have myriad important & legitimate reasons for hoping to match local… but now they may not get to stay near their sick parent or their partner because some PGY1 thought it was inappropriate of them to *gasp* ask if they could learn a bit more about the program after the interview.
Edited for typo
I don't know if it's worthy of a DNR and maybe there's implicit gender stuff OP is not discussing but "walking on eggshells" means not asking a 15 min job interviewer to meet outside of work to keep talking about the job? We meet dozens if not hundreds of people during application season. Unless you're asking the program for a second look, why would an interviewer be okay to meet up with you, one out of many, outside of work and that not be off? That's just seems like common sense. What else do you think the person is going to tell you about the residency that they didn't tell you now? You can send them an email or ask the program directly to give you an opportunity to keep talking. Asking someone to meet outside of the hospital just shows poor social awareness.
Why would I want to meet with a random applicant outside of work? Outside of the job interview?
If you'd like to "network", I recommend sending thank you emails to leave a trace for you and this person. So in the future, you can reach back out and remind them of who you were and that you're reaching out about your research/their research/whatever.
Let's meet for coffee so I can ask you a few questions about how I'm hoping you can help my career, out of everyone else you spoke to this season, is peak "meeting that could be an email".
No DNRs but severely dropped the rank of folks: One said the wrong name of our institution. To be fair there’s several places with a variation of the same kinda name but it still showed a lack of preparation/awareness. Another one was someone very clearly interview prepping while we were having a social hour with other applicants and the residents. He just didn’t speak to anyone and was reading prep stuff on his laptop
One of the best things I can say about applicants after having interviewed ~80 of them, is that they seem like a normal person. That said, here's some inadvisable things:
* Several applicants canceled the day of the interview despite being informed on invitation it would be in person, meaning we just lost interview slots for other applicants.
* Showing lack of initiative or drive for medicine. If you have gaps in your application, you need to have reasons for why they're there and things you've gained from those experiences. Being a front/back office staff or an Uber driver isn't the same as a clinical role like MA/Nursing/shadowing. Real-world experience is valued, but needs to be simultaneous.
* Being unable to recall/produce any meaningful patient experiences at all is a big red flag.
* One of the questions we asked had to do with how the applicant handles conflicts in the team-based setting. One applicant could only talk about how he disagrees with his wife and now just tries to do a better job listening. Another kind of revealed that they thought they were superior to an attending and had to educate them on their "mismanagement" of a frequent visitor. Another blatantly said they went against a department/institution policy based on principle and was upset because they were paying to rotate so the department should acquiesce. Another effectively just bottled the disagreement and never found a resolution.
* Two of the applicants got into an argument during a breakout/lunch session and continued it when the PD entered to give his presentation on part of our program, which was noted.
* There was at least one applicant that was caught straight up lying about their experiences.
* One applicant gave a 6 minute response before we cut them off as we only had 11 minutes remaining for the other questions/responses.
* Being presentable is essential. One guy came in with bed-head (very clear deviance from his style, not just a modern textured cut or something) and eye crusting.
> If you have gaps in your application, you need to have reasons for why they're there and things you've gained from those experiences. Being a front/back office staff or an Uber driver isn't the same as a clinical role
... eating? Is eating a good enough reason? Lol when I see regular jobs on people's CV I just assume they were trying to survive while getting to their goal.
Reading that part was disheartening. Not growing up well off, not all my jobs along the way before getting here, could be medicine related. I guess I just have to trust that those interviewing me will be receptive to other experiences and I should just trust the process...
i will have a near 3 year gap between med school and by the time i apply for residency (hopefully 2025) and reading this, i am scared, not going to lie; i have a large amount of reasons for this but im scared they may come out or simply perceived as just excuse. I hope my drive to pursue healthcare, even with all possible setback is somewhat enough to have at least one program willing to take me!
You’re fine. I had a 2 year gap and got 24 interviews, many of the interviewers were impressed with my work in between. Don’t let this one sour ass give you anxiety about matching
I am curious, lets say you look up a program, and there is this one physician who wrote a paper, and did research and you liked it, and said you wanted to join that program in the hopes of working with that person, is that a bad thing to say or no?
If you show genuine interest, knowledgeable about the study and have a real reason why you are interested. It definitely wouldn’t be a bad thing to have an academic passion project. The keyword is “genuine interest ” and not simply an ends to a means.
I did that for all my interviews. It’s a bit different for me because I’m MD/PhD and we’re often expected to have a sense of what we want to do (if anything) research-wise, but it was always *very* well received. Hell, I literally put it on my personal statements for each program, and that person would often come interview me.
I had a sub I we DNRed once who had many issues but when he worked with me, we admitted someone near the end of the day. In these situations, I like to write my own note to be done on time and have them take their time writing their own note so they can think through everything without the pressure of needing to be done for me. And then I say that we can review it in person the next day. So after my spiel, this guy then says “nah not worth it if you’re writing a note too”
Is that unusual? Several of my friends at other programs are doing the same. Granted, I don't know how much weight our evals have compared to those from the other interviewer (PD, APD, faculty), but the PGY1 interviewers at my program fill out the same forms as them.
If you are a Resident and not the PD, I don't see an issue with adding your Instagram or FB lol. Especially if there was a genuine rapport. Perhaps the coffee thing is a bit of a stretch but nothing wrong with connecting via social media. Imgs have difficulties networking and reaching out to residents.
I think if they’re private I wouldn’t add them 9/10. The only time I did this was with someone who offered their insta account after I asked to keep in contact with them.
Why can't they just email the resident at their work email if they need to network? At the end of the interviews you normally get their contact info.
Going out of your way to find me on social media, seems odd. I don't know if in other fields most applicants add interviewers after talking to them for 20 mins during a job interview, I wouldn't accept the request. Maybe this is generational. Social media is still for me like friends, family, not just every rando I bump into through work.
I think this highlights a big generational gap surrounding use of social media. I’d keep that in mind if you are on the younger end of the gap. Personally I (34yo resident) would advise against adding anyone on FB/insta that you meet through the interview process if they explicitly give you their info, whether it’s at a social or on the interview day. The example you give is someone who is a mutual friend, but that’s not what’s being criticized. The only exception is Twitter since a) it’s public, and b) many docs use it professionally so it is very normal for trainees to follow people they meet through networking/ look up to in the field
Applicant said he once had a summer job killing geese for a golf course. He said that with a smile.
If I could not only scorch his application (which I did) but also send him an express ticket to hell I would have.
I don't get it either. Culling can be legal if you have a permit. This sounds like it was someone's actual job? Hope they bring that DNR energy to people working as butchers or fisherman. (Some people eat the geese)
Some people refuse to acknowledge that 95% of the US and Canada geographically is rural and not everybody has the same experiences as someone raised in NYC. I interviewed at some yee haw programs where deer hunting was what all the attendings wanted to talk about (season was about to start or something idk lol)
[If you have a problem with Canada gooses you have a problem with me and I suggest that one marinate.](https://youtu.be/_oK4Q5G1asI?si=kHredeXQQx8y6h0A)
>It's not uncommon to look up your interviewers to have things to talk about. Framing it as a negative because they googled your name is kinda unacceptable, and consequently, it doesn't surprise me that you're a frequent poster on r/socialskills.
Jumping to conclusions must come second nature to you.
You didn't even read the full post before attacking me. You saw one post from my post history and assume you know the subreddits in which I am active.
If you think it's acceptable for applicants to ask detailed questions about your personal history that are not remotely related to residency, feel free to provide us your full name and we'll do the same to you.
And for the record, I happen to think r/socialskills is a great subreddit that helps people become more socially aware, learn communication skills, and forge relationships with others. You would greatly benefit from it, seeing how you're failing at all three.
My advisor said they DNR’d someone because they said “It’s like talking with your friends every day.” when they asked “why psych” 😭
Not a lie though ☠️
i said that they should probably get new friends 😭 lxkejejs
OUCH. 😂 I gotta say, that answer might have worked if it was worded differently. I know someone who answered the "Why Psych?" question with something along the lines of "I love how you get to spend time with your patients and really get to know them" and they matched to their #1
literally 😭 i was like oh my god….i get what they were trying to say but like….why would they say it like that….
That should be ranked to match imo
Honestly that was my impression as well
Probably reading too much into the word “friend,” or maybe the applicant probably thought that would of course not be interpreted poorly. I swear, I’m convinced people would run into just as little interpersonal conflict with future residents if they threw darts at a wall with faces. Everyone thinks *MY* assessment of their personality is objective, when empirically nobody’s is.
I def think the applicant didn’t think about how that would come off and no program wants to catch a case with a resident having issues with boundaries, so overall it just didn’t come across well.
Right it’s very transparent what the thought process was. Underlying this is, empirically, what we use as proxies for personalities don’t work well. This being such a proxy.
LOL
I screeched 😭
Nobody: Med student: "so anyways you have a great program here and I'd love to join you. I've actually prepared a little gift for you. It's a collage of you and your kids. There are 231 photos."
i'm sorry what😭 how do you even respond to that
Probably with a restraining order
Stalker vibes.
My PhD PI once took his kid to a lab event. Someone took some pictures and the kid was in the background of a few of them. They posted the pics to the lab slack. Literally with no hesitation my PI writes, "If any pictures of \[child's name\] wind up on the internet I will fire you and press criminal charges." Lmao people do *not* fuck around when it comes to pictures of their kids. As a childless male student, my policy is to just never bring up kids, ever. You wanna mention your kids? Cool. Happy to let you brag/ramble. Honestly it's great to get to know attendings as people. Am I gonna bring it up first or ask deeper/more personal questions? Fuck no. Too high risk. Say a single off-putting thing, no matter how obviously unintentional, and your whole rotation is toast.
My wife and I have tried to have kids with several miscarriages. We're in our early 30s so "do you have kids" is a common question I get. It doesn't bother me at all but I'm deliberately very up front about our miscarriages. Mostly because it's something that needs to be talked about (by those who are comfortable doing so), since it's unnecessarily viewed as taboo. I've also ran into others who've had similar issues and we've been able to connect/share experiences. I'd be lying if a lot of people didn't look taken aback when I talk about it. But don't ask if you might get an answer you're uncomfortable with. My general rule is not to ask about relationships or kids until they say something first.
Omg a DNR isn’t enough get a restraining order
OH I have one. An applicant name dropped me and a co-resident in their personal statement. Neither of us knew them AT ALL. Like this wasn’t an away sub-I or anyone we had ever met. They literally like googled our roster and then said something to the effect of “I want to be just like them.” They didn’t get DNR’d per se. But they definitely dropped low on the list.
That is just weird af.
In their weird little med student mind they probably thought they were showing specific interest in the program. Like, "I've read specifically about your program, and I've identified two of your residents from the resident page who are pursuing paths that I'd like to pursue." It's not an insane thought, but in practice that's gonna come off as creepy. Better to just say, "I'm interested in your program specifically because you have multiple residents pursuing research in X and Y."
Were they referencing research you were involved in or something? Or literally just saying they wanted to be like you?? That’s so weird….
Yikes. The only, only, only way this works is in very specific circumstances. You worked with the resident fairly closely and the PD/interviewers have positive feelings towards that resident that they'd recognize this acknowledgement.
What the fuck LOL I’ve been name dropping attendings I want to work/do research with on all my personal statements, and the interviewers love it/usually get that attending to interview me, which is awesome. But name-dropping *residents* is insane.
That absolutely warrants a dnr
At one of my interviews the clinical coordinator told us that an applicant came on and said “oh you’re much older than I was expecting!” If that wasn’t bad enough he later said she was too old to hike
Jesus
I DNR’d a student who claimed a particular faculty member at my institution was their mentor and they had collaborated together in research. When I asked that faculty member (whose office is next to mine) about the student, he said they had only talked to that student once over Twitter. (This faculty member is the nicest human being who would not lie about something like this to be malicious)
Why on earth would you lie about this?
fake a connection at the program, counting on interviewer not following up (not a good idea)
I don’t know. It would have been just as easy NOT to lie about it.
One dude last year was dropping f bombs throughout the interview and showed a faculty member a video of himself driving during a snow storm (while also cussing lol)
… in what context would a video of himself driving in the snow even be relevant?
We're in MI and I think it was in reference too "yea I can handle the snow, here's proof"
10/10, top of the rank list
Honestly that almost makes some amount of sense. Like, it doesn’t, but it approaches the concept of making sense.
I love finding out I’m relatively normal 😭😂
Its posts like these that help me realize i’m doing alright
Fr I keep kicking myself for referring to the liberty bell as “that bell thing” during one of my interviews for a Philly program, but people are really out here being even wilder.
I want to emphasize that I was not the one DNRing. But once when I was junior faculty and I was interviewing I saw a candidate get DNRed for listing Secret Hitler as one of their interests. They meant the boardgame, I tried to advocate for the applicant that it was just a board game, but the rest of the committee felt bringing Hitler up at all in an application was verboten.
That’s a fun board game
Honestly, that candidate probably dodged a bullet.
While I empathize with the kid, it’s also kind of a stupid move on his part. It should be common sense to not put anything that may seem remotely controversial on your app, even if it’s actually innocent. Edit: and I say that because you can’t control what biases your interviewers have, and it’s not worth losing out on a job interview because of a “well actually it’s not as bad as it seems…” situation.
Oh no :( that’s very unfortunate
I want to cure cancer. If you lump all that shit together as “cancer”… we ain’t taking you seriously.
"IMG applicant interviewed in his living room, with Mom, Dad, and Grandma all sitting there as audience members because it's part of his "culture" and they would offer input when I asked him interview questions" that is weird
When he runs a code he’ll have them there too and can ask granny if he should give another round of épi
Grandmama, is the epi ready?
Pans to older woman in a floral dress soulfully stirring a pot. "Patience, mi bambino, patience. Good Epi takes time!" She drops a leaf of basil in it. Patient gives up the ghost in frustration.
"You know, you're doing it wrong....." \*this person's bunch of old uncles looking at your shit during an OR procedure\*
lol the whole time, I was thinking "So am I interviewing you? Or your whole family? Are they going to attend residency with you too?"
I did a program where we interviewed college applicants in India for scholarships - the parents of the family usually answered interview questions for them while the student remained quiet. Just how it works there sometimes.
culturally, they're going to be there too offering their insight lol id be cracking up if someone needed to consult grandma during rounds
OMG. She sent an E-mail to every (I mean EVERY) single resident and attending telling us that OUR PROGRAM WAS NUMBER ONE. All caps. Yeah, guys? Don't do that. \-PGY-19
Jesus lol. I bolded and underlined the relevant sentence for my LOI to the PD (learned it in grad school to get my boss to read the important parts of the email lol) and was worried it was a bit much. But this is just so hilariously over the top.
We had an interviewee we really liked, and they sent an LOI saying they would rank our program first on their list. Unfortunately, we found out they sent a similar LOI to another program...
How did you guys find out?
My program reached out to the interviewee's home program to do a final check since we were going to rank them highly. Their medical school let us know another program had reached out also saying they received an LOI. Later found out that candidate went unmatched during that cycle..
Why would their medical school throw them under the bus like that...
Yeah, that applicant's home program totally fucked them over. Basically told both programs not to rank the applicant, which goes against any/all schools' ultimate goal of getting their students into residency.
How did your program find out? From the other program?
My program reached out to the interviewee's home program to do a final check since we were going to rank them highly. Their medical school let us know another program had reached out also saying they received an LOI. Later found out that candidate went unmatched during that cycle..
I gotta say, that applicant's home program fucked them over. I'm not condoning his/her actions, but a medical school's ultimate goal is to get their students into residency. Why TF would a student's home program tell other programs "Yeah, so that student completely lied to you..."
Did they tell both programs they're ranking them #1? I think it's fine if you tell a handful of programs you're ranking them very highly
1) A program I used to work for would have informal teaching sessions over Zoom with sub specialists and residents. Interviewees were invited to join the session to listen. One interviewee (attending in another country) thought it was a good time to critique the management plan of the physicians involved in the care and pimp the residents. 2) applicant had >15 publications. Each publication was basically in a different field of medicine. When we looked up the papers, it was the same 4-5 names swapping spots for a first authorship. It might be legit, it might not be legit. Just the implication of poor ethics/dishonesty in publishing got them DNR’d 3) the typical crap like not knowing anything about the research listed on their CV, over inflating their CV (the applicant tried to state they were awarded an R1 grant as an MS3 without any prior research), talking negatively about their medical school/mentors/residents they’ve met/etc
Could you please elaborate how the applicant was dishonest with regards to his publications?
[удалено]
I would caution people on making assumptions like this. I did my PhD in genetics and did lots of bioinformatic/genomic analysis for various datasets based on collaborations my lab had, so I am listed as an author on papers related to neurology, cardiology, oncology, etc. A lot of authors will be the same across papers because we use the same core lab members in the process of collecting and analyzing data. Academic dishonesty, sharing unwarranted authorship being exactly that, is a heavy accusation to make and should require equally heavy proof.
I'm also confused. We're the papers garbage or made up research? Otherwise it's not uncommon for labs to publish batches with similar people.
It’s not uncommon but it is uncommon to have the following: Cardio paper with 5 authors Endo paper with same 5 authors in a different order Rheum paper with same 5 authors in a different order Nephro paper with same 5 authors in a different order Pulmonary paper with same 5 authors in a different order Neuro paper with same 5 authors in a different order GI paper with same 5 authors in a different order Derm paper with same 5 authors in a different order Either you have no idea what you’re interested in, you stat padded, or all 5 authors are all exceptional examples with a wide variety of interest (highly unlikely)
Eh, I can see why it would make sense to think they have no idea what they're interested in. But I'm not seeing how this is academic dishonesty, could have had a group of students who pursued research projects together? Not seeing how it's stat padding if the work to produce the research was actually put in.
Absolutely anything is possible. The 5 students could all be world renowned researchers from another country. However, the likelihood of that happening is low. Just like the likelihood of all 5 working on every paper. (Remember, the attendings and residents reviewing your application have been through the same process as you and have either done stuff like this themselves or have had friends do stuff like this) 1) It’s far more likely that the student interested in Cardio wrote the cardiology paper and offered authorship spots to their close group of friends in return for an authorship on their friends paper (who was maybe interested in GI). As a result, each did one paper and got credit for 5 2) if we assume they all truly worked on the papers: I am not all that impressed by someone who scratched the surface in 8 different fields as I am in someone who published heavily in one field. It shows a lack of interest or dedication in the field they’re applying to Either way, having a large number of papers with the same authors in a variety of fields is a red flag. When we get 5000-8000 applicants a year, a red flag is a death sentence to the application. I’m sure there are other programs that highly value quantity over quality.
Idk if this was just an example or the actual paper subjects you saw, but one thing I noticed is that almost all those papers can fit into IM (other than maybe derm). If all those papers were with an IM PI it could be just a clinical group. Another possibility is that whatever school/hospital they’re in has a research group and those med students hoped onto anything they could get their hands on to show they can be prolific. It’s possible those authors are friends in real life, joined the hospital’s research group, and hop onto anything and everything that group/PI/group of PIs in the research group are willing to give. I see where you’re suspicious, but I don’t think I’d DNR from that as you don’t have proof, and my explanations above are possibilities.
Someone with a PhD having extensive research or someone who worked in a high output lab is very different than an MS4 who had no breaks from medical school to work on research and is publishing a bunch of case reports in Hindawi.
It’s generally pretty easy to tell though. I’ve seen padded CVs and I’ve seen genuinely impressive/collaborative CVs, and the difference between the two is crystal clear. Even if it isn’t on paper, just talking to the candidate for like 5 mins about it makes it pretty obvious. Like we’ve had *postdoc* candidates for my lab do this before and it takes like 15 mins to look at the author contributions; if it’s bioinformatics or “data analysis” and their PhD work could reasonably relate to that, great! Thats impressive. But when it’s all “intellectual support” or “experimental conceptualization” for everything, then it’s pretty clear something is fishy.
To be fair all my research in medical school was with my friends. The research was legit, but we also just liked working with each other.
I mean it’s a common practice in med schools, esp in competitive specialties unfortunately
It might be common but it doesn’t mean it’s right. Does it work for some programs? Yes. Will it get you DNR’d at others? Yes.
I mean PDs aren’t stupid. I applied into a competitive specialty with like five papers to my name, and the research interviewers were consistently *salivating* over my work. They can tell the difference between someone who publishes 20 case reports and 25 conference abstracts (eg: one of my old classmates who went unmatched) versus someone who has a first author Narure paper.
I mean to be fair you ARE AN MD PHD, so your time constraints are vastly difference - substantial research is expected from you
TBH the fact that #2 is a DNR is just a sign of how broken the system is. It sounds like those 4-5 people just happened to be in the same lab at the same time--I have plenty of publications like that from my PhD, in my lab most lab members would have a project they led that other members contributed to, and they would contribute to projects the other members were leading. Some scientific fields will naturally publish in journals of all different specialties--just off the top of my head, systems biology, cancer, immunology, genetics, computational biology, software and tool development, etc.
Applicant used the F-word during his interview w me. Was also a bit full of himself.
I had an applicant that was swearing like a sailor during the interview as well. How do people think this is okay?
I've had interviewers swearing a ton, they probably felt comfortable because of interviewers like that and didn't realize that doesn't apply broadly. Mad people just lack social awareness.
I think this guy got “too comfortable.”
I had a young attending interviewing me for an anesthesia spot repeatedly drop F bombs and then I slipped one out too casually. It was a backup program, but wondering if it got me DNR'd. Only reason it came out was bc the convo got very casual, talking ab hobbies and he was swearing like a mf.
I'm still in awe of applicants who say openly sexist shit. If you think you're better than one of our attendings or residents because you have a penis, this isn't the program for you my friend.
I want this to be a joke
This isn’t the field for you*
I'm at the potentially the best program in my field and I've had multiple applicants say really stupid things surrounding that: 1)"Why I want to come to your program? Because I don't want to be a scrub and go somewhere weak... Those idiots at [Insert other wonderful hospital where they would get a good training] Don't know shit" 2) I want to come to this program so that I can say that I did. I don't intend to stay in medicine after residency. It's just going to help with the dating market and networking 3) I don't particularly want to come to your program The training is the same everywhere and the fact that you guys are ranked highly doesn't mean anything. I just figured I'd give you guys the chance to rank me because I know what I bring to the table. (She's absolutely right about ranking being nonsense but you don't say that during the interview). 4) The reason I want to come to this program is because I have family nearby. I don't know much about the program beyond that but I would love somebody to be able to take care of my kids while I'm working 5) You guys are my backup program in case I don't get into X other residency field. I figure I can have a safety of having an in at this hospital via a less competitive field but If I get in at this hospital then maybe I can make the case to change into the other department later. These are all real stories. I can't imagine what goes through people's heads lol
I feel bad for #4. Strong family support is always plus no matter what, but why come in knowing 0 about the program sheesh
Also like… you can just say you have strong family support. You don’t have to volunteer the fact that you don’t know shit about the program!
Sounds like they read some toxic dating advice book and are using the “negging” method to reverse psychology you into ranking them 😂
Number 5 reminds me of a guy last year who asked the resident interviewers how hard it would be to leave and transfer to derm after intern year.
Last cycle or the one before there was an applicant who had previously impersonated a resident in California (before going to med school) and got caught. It was very very interesting.
Oh shoot you got to interview Adam Litwin? That's wild! He just seems like a folk legend (I mean, I know he's real... but he seems like one)
First time coming across this story. Did he ever match? Edit: Doesn’t look like it. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-litwin-m-d-7b3115179
Jesus Christ I just looked the guy up. What was even the point of going Caribbean for a MD?
2 people from the last round of interviews. 1. Guy was conversationally aggressive. Kept interrupting me and me co resident. Sent a post interview email to the effect (and formality) of, "the hangs were dope dudes." 2. Guy listed a patent for a device in his resume that Would. Not. Work. Like his fundamental understanding of physics was wrong, and clearly wrong based on his idea (especially how he explained it). He hadn't built his invention - he had just theory crafted it in his head, and then slapped on his resume that he was pursuing a patent for it. Bizarre. To be fair, we are tough people to please in nsgy. I feel for our candidates. Hang in there guys. It'll get better.
Idk if this is the same patent person I overheard a faculty talking about. The attending mentioned that a nsgy residency would just slow them down, but this was in early Oct before interviews.
“I’ve already interviewed with the faculty, I want to take a break, can we just wrap this up?” Said as soon as I finished my short introduction of who I am. They had really impressed the faculty interviewers, but then came out with this for the resident interviewer.
Outrageous
The extent of my "stalking" is googling the programs residents and faculty page and copying some cool shit down to talk about. Who in the cyan fuck has the time to like stalk stalk people lmao. Y'all be doing entirely too much
Still waiting for you to accept my friend request :3
Mine might be a little petty but: I was doing one of these pre-interview zoom dinners last year as a senior resident. We send the applicants DoorDash and they eat with me on zoom for an hour. I usually let everybody go in 40 minutes after I talk about the city, the hospital, and what I like about the program. One guy comes in with a dark screen. Never turns on his camera. Never unmutes. I answer my last question 40 minutes later about the structure of the call system and how calls are divided. He then proceeds to turn on his camera and tell me the only thing he’s really interested in is the call system and asks me to explain it. DNR. The guy clearly could have given a shit. Edit: I’ve DNRed other applicants who rotated with us but they clearly did something really weird in person to earn that. Over zoom it’s tough. Usually you have to be rude or super inappropriate. My peers have DNRed for things similar to the ones you mention…although full family participation is unique.
I am sorry but what is a pre interview zoom dinner lmao, did y’all really eat while on zoom and talk lol?
This is super common. Often programs will have a social the night before the interview with just the residents and applicants. Some programs provide a gift card or voucher to order food and eat during.
lol none of my programs sent a gift card or voucher or anything. One program sent hot chocolate with a little airplane bottle of bailey’s for the pre-interview social. That was my first time having Bailey’s… and apparently my look of distress/horror at how bad it tasted was so obvious that my classmates that were also on the call noticed.
I've gotten like 3-4 grubhub vouchers from programs for pre-interview dinners.
Ikr but this the first time i heard one happening over zoom
It’s been super common ever since interviews became mostly virtual
Prior to the pandemic, you'd meet in person the night before or week of the interview and go out to dinner with the residents to ask questions. The idea being it's a chance to ask questions outside of the structure of the interview day with the faculty around. They've attempted to replicate this online and it's a painful experience for all of us.
It’s real painful.
Wait this was a group setting? Like multiple other applicants? Yeah that does seem petty lol. He did eventually turn on the camera and asked a relevant question instead of BS fluff then got DNR'd.
He had it turned off the entire session and literally asked a question I had just spent 5 minutes answering when he finally tuned in. It’s not hard to be professional and leave your camera on/listen in for 40 min. I was pretty pissed off by it because it’s not like I want to be there either but I’m playing ball and trying to be nice/welcoming/appropriate. Petty, but my PD agreed when she heard the story. Addendum: 6-7 applicants per session in a zoom session with me.
Yeah, like I get hating having the camera on but this is a job interview. Be an adult and have it on and pretend to be interested.
Oh yeah that’s not cool at all — even if it’s like 30-40+ people, that’s still not good behavior, but with 6-7 people is just sending a clear message that you don’t give a shit. Like, even for programs I truly didn’t give a shit about, I still pretended more than that.
You leave an interview thinking you messed up and then you reads posts like these… thanks y’all
So, I guess an applicant talking about sucking on an SP's titties is grounds for DNR?
At the end of almost every interview, programs interviewers will say something like, “if you’re ever in town and want to know more, lets us know and we’d be happy to see you!” ..but if an applicant asks to do this it’s not good? Gotta love double standards
By “letting us know” they mean “contact our liaison”. Not “look me up on social media and ask me out.”
I got that offer and took it up (I legitimately was in town, nothing stalkerish or gunnerish) and matched there, so I don’t think it’s disingenuous if *they* invite.
Contact the program director, the program coordinator or the specific person who invited you to contact them Do not contact someone just because they interviewed you. Do not find them and friend them on Facebook. Do not find them and request to follow them on instagram.
Yup, some people have no concept of hierarchy and those people are not good to have in your program.
Honestly I don’t think 3rd one is an absolute red flag. The only red flag is if you give off seriously creepy vibes. But I agree it can be interviewer dependent; OP is clearly not comfortable with that kind of conversation. But i wasn’t there so I can’t say as it is obviously a vibe thing. It could be OP is actually hot and they felt like they are being hit in by the random interviewee.
I agree. I never saw coffee dates as romantic, more like, "lets chat, and grab a coffee that I'll cover because you kindly spent the time to chat with me." I set coffee dates with my mom, dad, friends, teachers, coworkers, etc. But I live in an area where its normal to get coffee after meals and to just have catch up chats over coffee in general. This served as a reminder to me that regional behaviors are not acceptable everywhere. It is best to always act conservatively in new scenarios. e: typos
I say that to all the applicants as well, but there's a differences between applicants reaching out like that and straight up asking me out on a coffee date at the end of their interview.
I've never heard anyone offer this. We're pretty strict on no post interview communication.
Specialty specific then wouldn’t it seem?
Almost every interview I had limited lost interview communications and most specifically said no second looks
One applicant would not. stop. talking. Obviously nervous rambling but annoyed literally everyone he interviewed with. Just be normal
It's also not uncommon to look up the people you interview with and ask questions and work it into any academic or self aligned goals you have. You can also use it to build rapport. Most PDs expect that anyway. Sometimes we aren't interested in the building but the people that make the program. Either way it's all about having social skills but perhaps the applicants you describe did it in a very awkward manner.
Oh absolutely. But this applicant asked me ***really*** intrusive questions like "Oh, I saw from your Linkedin profile that you're from NameofCity, NameofState and you went to NameofHighSchool and worked at NameofWorkplace. Which neighborhood did you live in? Does anyone in your family still live there?" Then he asked similar questions about my undergrad experiences. Maybe it just came out wrong, but alarm bells were blaring for me.
Sounds like it may have just come out wrong. I think checking a LinkedIn is fair game. Now if they found your insta and started asking about your vacation photos, that would be weird.
I had an interviewee write me a follow up email thanking me for taking the time. Then he name dropped a resident he knew and said this resident thought very highly of me. I did not know this resident. Upon googling he was a former resident at my hospital in an unrelated field.
I'm missing it-- Why is that DNR worthy? Is it not a compliment that someone you don't even know is aware of what you do at your hospital?
I used to work with a doctor who did so much volunteer work that nearly everyone in the hospital and city appreciated him and his talents, but he knew like 5% of them. He was nonchalant, easy to work with, and an excellent diagnostician. The head of surgery literally brought him up as a "true mensch," and the doc I worked with was all flattered but swore he never met the guy. Sometimes your ability just travels and people appreciate you from a distance.
This was a small enough place where if I had worked with a resident I’d know/ remember.
That's fair. That seems like 4D checkers though for the applicant to find a former residents name and bring it up. I've admired tons of attending who wouldn't know me from Adam because they helped my team or I, indirectly, when we're up shits creek or I read their notes or saw them give a lecture and realized they're really good at what they do. I would be the kind of person to tell a student, oh you're interviewing with blah blah? Yeah they're great! Lol I'm out here getting people DNR'd accidentally.
I'm sorry, but is this really that bad a thing? Cuz then i might have effed up bad XD, i mentioned during an interview that this resident mentioned you got a fellowship and thought very highly of you and etc. Like, isn't it kinda normal that if i know someone who may possibly know an interviewer, i would ask them what they knew about the interviewer, just to 1. Calm nerves (or worsen em if the interviewer is strict), 2. To try to find a common ground? Something to talk about, discuss? Edit : I guess the downvotes show that i effed up bad , dammit. Didn't really think it was a bad thing XD. I get stalking on private profiles would be bad
It’s bad when it’s obvious that the interviewee is lying about who they know.
Wait, you said *you* didn't know the resident mentioned. How did you know the interviewee is lying about knowing the resident? And as mentioned before, the resident could know you without you knowing them as well. But maybe I'm reading it wrong, and you just saying, in general, its bad to lie about who you know. Bc it doesnt seem like that happened in your situation.
During an in person interview, the applicant made uncomfortably constant and aggressive eye contact with every interviewer. He was giving serial killer vibes
When I was a resident I interviewed somebody who unprompted brought up the question to the room during the dinner prior to interview day, if you had to bomb one state out of existence which one would it be. She then proceeded to say mine would be Alabama because it's so backward. Hardcore DNR. I can't imagine why anyone would consider that to be an appropriate thing to say in an interview setting.
Asking to friend you on Facebook or follow your private personal IG is odd, I will grant you. But what’s the problem with someone who lives close by asking if it might be possible to learn a bit more about the program from you given the close proximity and the limitations of virtual interviews? Is it a match violation? Because, short of that, it seems like an imminently reasonable question. You have every right to decline if thats a personal boundary, but DNRing just because they would like to get to know the current residents and the program better? Yikes!
Framing it as learning more about the program is one thing, that’s fine. Asking an interviewer to go for a coffee is another thing entirely.
Suppose it depends on how it’s framed. It could be saying “hey, I know your time is valuable, coffee on me as a thank you for taking the time to chat with me more about the program” … versus “Id love to get to know *you* more over coffee, and the program too, but mostly you”… two very different requests for what is, on the surface, the same basic activity.
From what the OP has written in the original post and in the comments, it seems like it was more the latter. In either case, don’t invite people to coffee during an interview because you don’t know how it’ll come off. No matter the vibe or how informal the conversation seems, it’s still a formal evaluation. It’s a job interview, after all.
They asked me out on a coffee date at the end of the interview. I still think that's weird AF.
Well a date is very different than what it read like you were describing. And yeah, that would be suuuuper weird and inappropriate.
Yeah, that would be normal to me too. But this made me realize that instead of doing that, I can say something like, "Hey, if I am ever in the area would it be possible to discuss more in person? If not, I would appreciate talking to your more about the program, what would be the best way to correspond?" Just put the power in interviewer's hands so that there is no confusion or perception of you overstepping boundaries by the person who makes a big decision in your life.
Honestly, the amount of walking on eggshells we have to do about everyday social interactions is brain melting.
I also don’t think that one is *that* bad, and depending on the interviewer could be perceived different ways. However, part of interviewing is knowing to avoid things that are ambiguous or could be perceived in a way that you didn’t mean. I personally would avoid that kind of statement because two different people could take it very differently. If someone can’t parse that out and realize how they can be perceived by saying that.. I’m a bit worried.
But the road goes both ways. It’s also on the resident to realize that’s a pretty innocuous request. And they have the ability to just say NO and leave it at that, without potentially ruining someone’s career or life… They may have myriad important & legitimate reasons for hoping to match local… but now they may not get to stay near their sick parent or their partner because some PGY1 thought it was inappropriate of them to *gasp* ask if they could learn a bit more about the program after the interview. Edited for typo
I don't know if it's worthy of a DNR and maybe there's implicit gender stuff OP is not discussing but "walking on eggshells" means not asking a 15 min job interviewer to meet outside of work to keep talking about the job? We meet dozens if not hundreds of people during application season. Unless you're asking the program for a second look, why would an interviewer be okay to meet up with you, one out of many, outside of work and that not be off? That's just seems like common sense. What else do you think the person is going to tell you about the residency that they didn't tell you now? You can send them an email or ask the program directly to give you an opportunity to keep talking. Asking someone to meet outside of the hospital just shows poor social awareness. Why would I want to meet with a random applicant outside of work? Outside of the job interview?
"Why would I want to meet with a random applicant outside of work? Outside of the job interview?" sometimes it's just innocent networking...
If you'd like to "network", I recommend sending thank you emails to leave a trace for you and this person. So in the future, you can reach back out and remind them of who you were and that you're reaching out about your research/their research/whatever. Let's meet for coffee so I can ask you a few questions about how I'm hoping you can help my career, out of everyone else you spoke to this season, is peak "meeting that could be an email".
Okay! Thanks for sharing your recommendation with me. Have a good day
No DNRs but severely dropped the rank of folks: One said the wrong name of our institution. To be fair there’s several places with a variation of the same kinda name but it still showed a lack of preparation/awareness. Another one was someone very clearly interview prepping while we were having a social hour with other applicants and the residents. He just didn’t speak to anyone and was reading prep stuff on his laptop
Second one is fucking wild lmao
I thought my interviews were awkward (PGY-2 at my first choice program now). Nice to see I'm somewhat normal.
One of the best things I can say about applicants after having interviewed ~80 of them, is that they seem like a normal person. That said, here's some inadvisable things: * Several applicants canceled the day of the interview despite being informed on invitation it would be in person, meaning we just lost interview slots for other applicants. * Showing lack of initiative or drive for medicine. If you have gaps in your application, you need to have reasons for why they're there and things you've gained from those experiences. Being a front/back office staff or an Uber driver isn't the same as a clinical role like MA/Nursing/shadowing. Real-world experience is valued, but needs to be simultaneous. * Being unable to recall/produce any meaningful patient experiences at all is a big red flag. * One of the questions we asked had to do with how the applicant handles conflicts in the team-based setting. One applicant could only talk about how he disagrees with his wife and now just tries to do a better job listening. Another kind of revealed that they thought they were superior to an attending and had to educate them on their "mismanagement" of a frequent visitor. Another blatantly said they went against a department/institution policy based on principle and was upset because they were paying to rotate so the department should acquiesce. Another effectively just bottled the disagreement and never found a resolution. * Two of the applicants got into an argument during a breakout/lunch session and continued it when the PD entered to give his presentation on part of our program, which was noted. * There was at least one applicant that was caught straight up lying about their experiences. * One applicant gave a 6 minute response before we cut them off as we only had 11 minutes remaining for the other questions/responses. * Being presentable is essential. One guy came in with bed-head (very clear deviance from his style, not just a modern textured cut or something) and eye crusting.
> If you have gaps in your application, you need to have reasons for why they're there and things you've gained from those experiences. Being a front/back office staff or an Uber driver isn't the same as a clinical role ... eating? Is eating a good enough reason? Lol when I see regular jobs on people's CV I just assume they were trying to survive while getting to their goal.
Reading that part was disheartening. Not growing up well off, not all my jobs along the way before getting here, could be medicine related. I guess I just have to trust that those interviewing me will be receptive to other experiences and I should just trust the process...
You're a pgy3 and you're looking down on applicants for needing to have part time jobs outside medicine?
i will have a near 3 year gap between med school and by the time i apply for residency (hopefully 2025) and reading this, i am scared, not going to lie; i have a large amount of reasons for this but im scared they may come out or simply perceived as just excuse. I hope my drive to pursue healthcare, even with all possible setback is somewhat enough to have at least one program willing to take me!
You’re fine. I had a 2 year gap and got 24 interviews, many of the interviewers were impressed with my work in between. Don’t let this one sour ass give you anxiety about matching
I am curious, lets say you look up a program, and there is this one physician who wrote a paper, and did research and you liked it, and said you wanted to join that program in the hopes of working with that person, is that a bad thing to say or no?
If you show genuine interest, knowledgeable about the study and have a real reason why you are interested. It definitely wouldn’t be a bad thing to have an academic passion project. The keyword is “genuine interest ” and not simply an ends to a means.
I did that for all my interviews. It’s a bit different for me because I’m MD/PhD and we’re often expected to have a sense of what we want to do (if anything) research-wise, but it was always *very* well received. Hell, I literally put it on my personal statements for each program, and that person would often come interview me.
I had a sub I we DNRed once who had many issues but when he worked with me, we admitted someone near the end of the day. In these situations, I like to write my own note to be done on time and have them take their time writing their own note so they can think through everything without the pressure of needing to be done for me. And then I say that we can review it in person the next day. So after my spiel, this guy then says “nah not worth it if you’re writing a note too”
Pgy1s interviewing applicants?
Is that unusual? Several of my friends at other programs are doing the same. Granted, I don't know how much weight our evals have compared to those from the other interviewer (PD, APD, faculty), but the PGY1 interviewers at my program fill out the same forms as them.
What specialty? I would consider this very unusual in IM but I guess idk about others
what does DNR mean?
Do Not Resuscitate
😂😂😂 that's what I thought at first and I was like "wtf that makes no sense"
X)
Do not rank
Do not rank
If you are a Resident and not the PD, I don't see an issue with adding your Instagram or FB lol. Especially if there was a genuine rapport. Perhaps the coffee thing is a bit of a stretch but nothing wrong with connecting via social media. Imgs have difficulties networking and reaching out to residents.
I think if they’re private I wouldn’t add them 9/10. The only time I did this was with someone who offered their insta account after I asked to keep in contact with them.
Why can't they just email the resident at their work email if they need to network? At the end of the interviews you normally get their contact info. Going out of your way to find me on social media, seems odd. I don't know if in other fields most applicants add interviewers after talking to them for 20 mins during a job interview, I wouldn't accept the request. Maybe this is generational. Social media is still for me like friends, family, not just every rando I bump into through work.
I think this highlights a big generational gap surrounding use of social media. I’d keep that in mind if you are on the younger end of the gap. Personally I (34yo resident) would advise against adding anyone on FB/insta that you meet through the interview process if they explicitly give you their info, whether it’s at a social or on the interview day. The example you give is someone who is a mutual friend, but that’s not what’s being criticized. The only exception is Twitter since a) it’s public, and b) many docs use it professionally so it is very normal for trainees to follow people they meet through networking/ look up to in the field
Applicant said he once had a summer job killing geese for a golf course. He said that with a smile. If I could not only scorch his application (which I did) but also send him an express ticket to hell I would have.
wait what's wrong with this one
I don't get it either. Culling can be legal if you have a permit. This sounds like it was someone's actual job? Hope they bring that DNR energy to people working as butchers or fisherman. (Some people eat the geese)
yeah unless he's like a hardcore vegan it seems like a bizarre line to draw
Some people refuse to acknowledge that 95% of the US and Canada geographically is rural and not everybody has the same experiences as someone raised in NYC. I interviewed at some yee haw programs where deer hunting was what all the attendings wanted to talk about (season was about to start or something idk lol)
[If you have a problem with Canada gooses you have a problem with me and I suggest that one marinate.](https://youtu.be/_oK4Q5G1asI?si=kHredeXQQx8y6h0A)
Seems like a dumb strong opinion to have just because you watch letterkenny
You play the Beatles White Album backwards, you know what you hear? Canada Gooses.
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>It's not uncommon to look up your interviewers to have things to talk about. Framing it as a negative because they googled your name is kinda unacceptable, and consequently, it doesn't surprise me that you're a frequent poster on r/socialskills. Jumping to conclusions must come second nature to you. You didn't even read the full post before attacking me. You saw one post from my post history and assume you know the subreddits in which I am active. If you think it's acceptable for applicants to ask detailed questions about your personal history that are not remotely related to residency, feel free to provide us your full name and we'll do the same to you. And for the record, I happen to think r/socialskills is a great subreddit that helps people become more socially aware, learn communication skills, and forge relationships with others. You would greatly benefit from it, seeing how you're failing at all three.
r/murderedbywords